Rukia vs Aaroniro - analysis, sort of

[ezxx]

This fight is probably regarded as the one with the most plot induced stupidity(PIS) - by myself included - but was Rukia really out of her league in the fight? Was she really unable to counter or incapable of harming Aaroniro?

First, even when off guard, she was able to see and react to his sneak attack.

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How fast is Aaroniro's attacking speed? While the sonido he's shown isn't on the level of byakuya, Yoruichi, Soi Fon, etc., it's quite fast.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5526/bleach26216or6.jpg

So even when heading right into an enemy attack which she has no idea is coming, she's able to see it and dodge accordingly. Following that scene, she attacks with her first dance, Aaroniro dodges because he knows how the attack works. However, it doesn't mean she was incapable of harming him had it hit him. He wouldn't have tanked it like Grimmjow.

---

Following that scene Aaroniro starts using Nejibana. While Rukia is on the defensive, she never takes a direct hit. Keep in mind she was also in mental disarray during this part of the fight. Soon after there's a few kidou shots by Rukia which forced, or at least inclined Aaroniro into his release state. As soon as Aaronrio released, the battle heavily went into his favor as Rukia was unable to guard against the majority of his attacks. He even broke her sword.

However, she managed to bring the sword back via a shikai. Ichigo did a similar thing vs Kenpachi and Renji was been able to use a broken sword for a final attack(See the chapter vs Aizen).

Also, is it really that unbelievable that a character such as Aaroniro would stand there and behave the way he did? Not only did he underestimate her for the majority of the fight, but he felt that his technique had ended the fight.

One may argue that she should have gone unconscious from such a wound but we've seen others remain conscious with wounds just as bad, and maybe even worse(Byakuya from Shinsou, Hitsugaya from Shawlong for example). I believe Rukia has been said to wield seven shikai attacks - correct me if i'm wrong on this - so her having a shikai that forms ice over her sword(or in place of her broken sword) really shouldn't be out of the ordinary. Also, once she brought back his sword and stabbed his head, she also managed to destroy most of his giant body.

Now some of you may have never considered this fight to be one with much PIS in it, but i've seen plenty of comments from this and other forums to suggest otherwise. What do you guys think? Did I waste my half hour writing what was blatantly obvious to everyone? :cool:

[Beee]

hm.. well I think Rukia got lucky to even make this fight a "double KO".

First, well yeah she did manage to dodge the attack while being caught off-guard, but she barely did it and the attack wasn't from behind or from a dead angle. It was right in front of her and Aaroniro was just playing and probably didn't REALLY intend to kill her. I doubt he even used sonido or anything like that either.

for the rest, well Aaroniro was playing and I think that's why she was able to keep on par with him.. until he "morphed". I think Aaroniro was just overconfident?

Maybe she wasn't as "out of her league" as some people might think, but Aaroniro was definetely much more skilled/powerful/blablabla... than Rukia


BTW I'm not too sure what you mean by PIS... o__o

[ezxx]

i defined "PIS" at the start as plot induced stupidity, meaning Aaroniro lost simply because of a stupid plot hole as opposed to Rukia having capabilities to take him out.

Aaroniro wasn't playing around with her. That's a misconception. He attacked her as best as he could in his base form, as well as using psychological attacks. She still managed to defend without much difficulty.

[Geta Boshi]

PIS or Plotkai is very common in Bleach Renji got his very first win because of that . Other Plotkais in Bleach


- Ichi Vs Zaraki : Ichigo winning against Zaraki with the help of Zangetsu PLOTKAI

- Gin Vs Toshiro : Gin actually NOT releasing till the very end PLOTKAI

- Zaraki Vs Tosen : Tosen going on and on about Righteousness and not slicing Zaraki from the word go PLOTKAI

- Yammi Vs Ichigo : Hollow interfering PLOTKAI

- Lift the Limit : PLOTKAI

- Toshiro Vs Luppi : Luppi not killing Chibi Taicho and being distracted with Rangiku PLOTKAI

- GJ Vs Ichi : Rukia saving Ichi then Shinji PLOTKAI

- GJ VS Shinji : GJ Not becoming Shinji’s Beatch PLOTKAI

[Velius]

All I know about the start this fight is that Rukia said in the early going that she was holding back and could have cut him down. She was more then strong enough to stand up to him. Now after he 'released', is another question.

She more then likely was out powered then. I think it is a tad bit crazy to say that she would have planned all that (i.e. sacrifice herself) , just to use her newest dance to finish him. So yes, she pretty much did win at that point with plot no jutsu.

But that's how Kubo wanted it, so no point in complaining about it really or calling it PIS or Plotkai or OMGWTFWASTHAT.

She beat Arroniro. Period. None of this "oh it was all luck!!" (every fight in bleach is almost all luck, win or survive). Or "she only won cause he was stupid". (no, she won because she had an edge on him, that being her 3rd dance he didn't know about). Wasn't the smoothest win, but it counts.

[ezxx]

Besides Ichigo vs Zaraki and Tousen vs Kenpachi, there was not that much of a plot hole. Even in the Tousen fight, it wasn't PIS. What should be taken into account is how certain characters like to fight, and not how you expect them to fight. But i don't wanna get into discussing every bleach fight and disproving that it's a dumb plot hole cause that would take a lot of time

[Geta Boshi]

Besides Ichigo vs Zaraki and Tousen vs Kenpachi, there was not that much of a plot hole. Even in the Tousen fight, it wasn't PIS. What should be taken into account is how certain characters like to fight, and not how you expect them to fight. But i don't wanna get into discussing every bleach fight and disproving that it's a dumb plot hole cause that would take a lot of time

I totally disagree plotkai or pis or pnj depends on how each one sees it . I have usually seen chracters that people dont favor win fights by plotkai . Strange isnt it ? .

Also is there a need to create such a thread . This topic has been discussed in every forum I lurked in great detail . So is there a need ?

[ezxx]

well it's just a difference of opinion. In regards to bleach PIS isn't evident in most fights, but there are certain examples where it's very apparent. Then again, that's only if people don't ignore how characters like to fight and previous showings. If you're talking about people winning fights via plot holes in other manga, then it's a different issue.

[Velius]

I totally disagree plotkai or pis or pnj depends on how each one sees it . I have usually seen chracters that people dont favor win fights by plotkai . Strange isnt it ? .

I don't think so... It's pretty clear that Rukia won this fight because she got lucky. Call that what you will, but it did happen. But this isn't normal luck that one would think of (i.e. a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person), because there is no such thing is a planned manga story. Everything happens for reason, by Kubo's pencil. :) This is why I say that there is no point in calling plotkai or whatever, this is just how Kubo wanted her to win.

There hasn't been a thread for this here, so it's ok.

[Geta Boshi]

I am not talking about Rukia’s fight I am talking in genral I have seen people used PNJ Plotkai on their conveinence. I can wager wih you some person somewhere will even call GJ VS Ichi 3 as a win by plotkai. Plotkai is one word which has been overused I have seen people who have read less than 10 manga titles writing paragrahs on Plotkai ...

Also why I chose to show almost every fight in Bleach as Plotkai The answer is simple if you overanaylize any fight , it can be shown as plotkai when it is not .

[Velius]

Also why I chose to show almost every fight in Bleach as Plotkai The answer is simple if you overanaylize any fight , it can be shown as plotkai when it is not .
QFT. This is why most of these augments start in the first place. The way you apply the plotkai to every fight accomplishes the same thing as I said of not counting it in any fight, that being removes it as a factor that means anything, which is exactly what it is, meaningless.

Rukia won because she had an advantage in the fact Arroniro didn't know about her third dance. Yes, it took some luck (mostly bad) to get to that point, but that's how these things go.

[Primera Espada]

Was Rukia as skilled as Arroniero? No. It's quite obvious, as Arroniero had all the skill of Kaien, which she SPECIFICALLY stated, and marveled at.

Was Rukia as fast as Arroniero? No. He has shyunpo, she does not. However, Rukia is stated as being quite speedy, so while she can't move with as much speed as others, her reaction time is really quite good (we see it being not too much different than Hitsugaya's reaction ability, actually). However, the fact remains that she could not completely dodge most of the attacks. She either had to dodge and defend, or dodge and get cut.

Was Rukia as powerful as Arroniero? No. He broke through her sword. Any weapon to weapon clash between them ended in Arroniero's favor. Her Kidoh, for the most part was completely ineffective against him, her binding spell only holding him for the briefest of moments.

The fact remains that Rukia's edge was that she had a move that he did not expect, and his overconfidence did not anticipate that. We see it from the start of the fight, where he comments that she has improved. Yet dispite that, he plays with her the entire fight, feeling as though she had no chance of beating him. She surprises him a lot in the fight, but due to his character, he disregards the idea that she could actually beat him. Finally, he skewers her with the 2nd worst injury we've seen in bleach (Menoli totally wins for worst). Through sheer willpower and determination, she manages to survive long enough to use a point blank attack, aimed perfectly to take out her opponent.

Is rukia's 3rd dance plotkai? Yes.

Is Arroniero setting himself up to be taken down plotkai? No. We see it coming from the very start. His overconfidence is prevalent, and will be his downfall, we all know it.

Not to mention we know right off that when we realize Rukia and Arroniero know each other's moves, the only POSSIBLE win for Rukia, when she was outclassed, is a move that Arroniero did not expect. Rukia had the chance to gain a new skill in the time Kaien was gone. Arroniero did not.

So yes, Rukia was lucky to win, but she wasn't lucky to be in a position to win.

[BigBadBuu]

....

Is Arroniero setting himself up to be taken down plotkai? No. We see it coming from the very start. His overconfidence is prevalent, and will be his downfall, we all know it.

Not to mention we know right off that when we realize Rukia and Arroniero know each other's moves, the only POSSIBLE win for Rukia, when she was outclassed, is a move that Arroniero did not expect. Rukia had the chance to gain a new skill in the time Kaien was gone. Arroniero did not.

So yes, Rukia was lucky to win, but she wasn't lucky to be in a position to win.

Most have had good points here, but I agree mostly with PE's post here.

At the end of the day this is Shounen, we expect things like this to happen.

In Rukia's case, however, this was developed fairly logically and was seen coming from a mile away. Did anyone expect Rukia to fight a fight she couldn't win? Did anyone *not* expect Rukia to have a 3rd/Final dance? Did anyone expect Rukia to simply give up and die?

As for whether she was a match for Aaroniro or not, Rukia has never NEVER underestimated an opponents' strength. Rukia has shown time and again that she picks her fights based on common sense and [tries to] retreat[s] when confronted with impossible odds. Rukia is NOT Ichigo, if she said/thought she could take him or that she had been going easy on him, then it's likely to be 98% true.

I'm NOT a Rukia fan -- not in the least. This fight, however, was very well executed and should not be lumped into the same pile as, sorry to say, Ishida's fight vs Mayuri.

-Buu

[Sergelia]

Okay, I am generally against such terms as Plotkai, PnJ and stuff (though in Naruto, even I sometimes just gape at the screen and yelp "What the hell, Kishi?") and I regard Rukia's fight as one of the high points of this arc. Admittedly not because of its supreme coreography/ingenuinety/amount of whoopass and all other stuff fanboys feed on (fanboys piss me off, GREATLY).

All in all, my short answer would be "This fight had as much PIS as any other Bleach fight. Only this time it's more evident because it was the tiny, Shikai Rukia vs. Aaro's huge release, but the fact remains."

My long answer is...

Rukia, as she herself stated in the flashback, is not really the best when it comes to sword-fighting. Arguably, as stated by Pyon, she's Vice-captain material at best, as opposed to the rest of staff that are, for the most part, insanely overpowered. She doesn't have a flashy bankai to boast around with. Her Kidou is great, yes, but it's not ZOMFG teh SkillZ. She's an average, good-trained Shinigami, with an "awesome power", to quote Ichigo. If anything was PiS in that fight, it was Aaroniero truly expecting that she'd go kill her friends to pay for taking Kaien's life - wtf? But I digress.

I'll agree with Primera Espada on this (for the most part). Aaroniero was more powerful. Rukia's victory was not the craftiest or the most logical we've seen so far - but during almost the entire fight she was underestimated and, because of the Kaien factor, she didn't even fight her best. We cannot, absolutely cannot ignore Kaien's role in the story; this wasn't Grand Fisher-showing-Ichigo-his-mom all over again, Rukia was facing the being that had Kaien's memories, abilities, voice, and for the most part of the fight, looked like him. I wonder how well would, say, Orihime fare fighting Ichigo's clone. I wonder how Renji would bear fighting someone that had all Rukia's attributes. People fighting their loved ones aren't really at the top of their game.

Maybe I'm biased, being a huge Rukia fan and all. This fight interested me because it had a huge emotional impact on the reader, and because it revealed more about both Rukia's character and the Kaien-backstory. So... you don't have to like it, but as far as the actual FIGHTING goes, we might as well do a thread like this for 90% of battles shown so far.

[ezxx]

Rukia also stated "i'll cut you down without any problems now that I know you're not really Kaien" or don't you want to take that into consideration? When she was unsure who he was, she was still able to defend against all of his attacks.

I already said she had reaction time capable of keeping up with him. And once again, she never took a hit from him(save for the first one when she was off guard) She did dodge or block all of his attacks because she would otherwise be dead. She even managed to use kidou on him in close range.

She wasn't as powerful as him once he released, however, she was as powerful as his unreleased state. Once he released, the match went into favor(I also said this). Still despite the increase in from a release, it's still possible to be hurt by guys an unreleased sword. Had the difference in power been much different from the start, then she would have had no chance once he released, but it wasn't. She was not out of her league during the majority of the fight, just doubting herself on whether she should attack Kaien or not. The reason people seem to think Aaroniro was more powerful is because he was much more confident parading around as Kaien.

any further typing will feel like repeating myself even more ;o

[wakeskater]

rukia didnt use her bankai either right? i remember her saying she has one... but we havent seen it yet... unless im having a mental blank in my head

[Sergelia]

Ruka doesn't have Bankai. I'm pretty sure she'll achieve it by the end of the story (Main Character Powers, after all), but at this point... :rotflmao That's just too much xD. She has enough power to be a seated officer, not a Captain.

@ezxx - you were perfectly fair in your OP and you're fair now. I agree with you on many points. However! I still think Aaroniero's power was rather overwhelming to her by the time her mind was made up - had she taken him on with her head clear from the start (if she showed up as his usual ugly self, that is xD) I'm sure not so many people would see a PnJ there, because Aaro would pretty much be an ice-statue. I myself don't see it anyway, but that's because my shipper heart is so sensitive on the Rukia-Kaien issue, I suppose. >__>
But the point of this fight IMO wasn't to say "Rukia Defeated An Espada Lulz" but to show us her determination to Save Inoue (tm by KuboTite) and not to die alone and other happy stuff. As well as that, no matter what crazed fanboys think of it, Rukia was both the first Shinigami to ever defeat an Arrancar, and the first Shinigami to ever defeat an Espada. Even if they were the weakest of their respective group, I think Kubo is trying to tell us something.

[Rain]

I really liked this fight. It seems like a good example of a person (aaroniro) not living up to their potential and how strength isn't everything.

[Lastier]

It's nice that Kubo gave Rukia an opponent with a fishbowl as a head and a third dance that happened to magically restore her sword, while Arroniro was exactly in the position to get pierced through his head.

[Jaina]

Nice analysis. I liked the fight a lot for the emotional weight as well as how it showed Rukia's ability to use tactics. She has her weaknesses, both in power an psychologically, but she can take what she has and make it work for her as best she can.

Though I'd like to know what her third dance does when her sword isn't broken. Does the ice just coat her blade? Does it have some special effect? Though really, as often as blades get broken in Bleach, having an attack that restores it is not as impractical as it sounds.

[Sarada]

IMO the fact that both her opponents, Deeroy and Aaroniro, needed to be mentioned by their companions as being 'weak' and/or 'stupid' to justify her winning says enough.

Btw, just to name a few examples someone posted, the limit lifting was introduced since the beginning of Bleach, it doesn't justify as plotkai when the author uses a valid powerup, not his fault we all forgot about it.

Tousen vs Zaraki wasn't plotkai either, the fight was over relatively quick, and Tousen's speech wasn't that long. It was pwnage by Zaraki.

The advancement of the main character is always expected and isn;'t generally considered as plotkai, so to say Bleach is full of plotkai isn't deserved.

[Alea Misa]

This fight is probably regarded as the one with the most plot induced stupidity(PIS) - by myself included - but was Rukia really out of her league in the fight? Was she really unable to counter or incapable of harming Aaroniro?

Well, I believe that Rukia was in a sense outclassed in the fight, because the fact that her power and abilities weren't quite on par with Aaroniro, however, she does have some decent skills and experience that helped her. Though I think that the battle was set up for Rukia to get stronger, and eliminate and resolve her fears and her guilt from the past. It makes sense that she had to fight her former teacher, it made her soul/consciousness realize the very thing that keeps her stunted from moving forward, and be able to step out of her fears. As she faces her near 'death experience', it will automatically upgrade her power, as it was said in the chapters where Urahara had taught ichigo about the proper way to fight.

http://i17.tinypic.com/6gcfyc5.jpg

Actually I find that this chapter that you're talking about is parallel with Ichigo's training with Urahara, except that Rukia has had it rougher due to her bond with her teacher Kaien. Both had to face 'death', and in order to survive, they had to get stronger, that is how they had stepped into being greater. They both had to face their fears, and in the end they had the resolve to get through the obstacle.