Religion

[HighSeraphShin]

Do you really believe it? or is it false hope, discuss.

Take this into mind, there are many religions, each with their own beliefs, but as you may not know, lots of these rules cancel the other religions rules out, thus meaning if you cannot have a true word of agreement, what do we get from religion? guidelines that people hardly ever follow and war. People say that religion makes us better, but think about this, why are most countries at war? ...yes, you guessed it, religion (well and possesion), Iran and Israel are at war because the Muslim people and the Jewish people have different beliefs and wish to keep the "sacred land" that they owned, both the muslims and the jewish owned that land at once, so they both concider it sacred, but that is only because of religion, and people just continosly kill eachother for the sake of that religion, if they didnt have the sacred thoughts and lands, then we wouldnt be at war with other countries,

Why would the world not just agree on a set of rules and destroy the Bible, Torah, etc., because they dont need the thoughts of being sacred when they just know what rules to live by, they dont need a story to support that if they can just simply understand, but mostly everybody in the world has a lower intellegence quoteint than me, so they cannot understand, this philosophy was burning in my head for years, i finally completed it, i may have solved most things, but if we can just take the issue of skin color and ethnicity, we may finally end this whole "kill kill kill, me me me, frenzy"

[LiquidTheBrit]

For one, I don't like it when people seem to misinterpret religions.

I, for one, am an agnostic atheist, but I also feel that Jesus wanted people to love, not to worship him.

[Primera Espada]

wow, you sorta missed the boat.

Just because people do things in the name of religion doesn't mean the religion is the cause. Almost every religion I know is anti-war, yet plenty of wars are fought "in their name"

Honestly, the wars are actually fought for political gain, with religion as a tool to manipulate people.

Religion itself is a wonderful thing, and though we may not know the exact religion that is correct, we all chose a religion based on what we think is the most likely candidate. The one that makes the most sense to us.

I see these remarks all the time, and it's usually based on uneducated or prejudice beliefs. Sure, this world can get you down, but you shouldn't assume that the cause of all the world's problems is religion, when religion is the largest factor in all the world's saving graces. Without religion, we wouldn't have a majority of humanitarian aide. You wouldn't have someone like the pope condemning war, you wouldn't have non-violent protests.

It's very hard to have higher convictions without believing in a higher power.

Not to say people *can't* it's just most people are not like that, for whatever reasons.

[Unicorn]

Just because people do things in the name of religion doesn't mean the religion is the cause. Almost every religion I know is anti-war, yet plenty of wars are fought "in their name"

Honestly, the wars are actually fought for political gain, with religion as a tool to manipulate people.

Religion itself is a wonderful thing, and though we may not know the exact religion that is correct, we all chose a religion based on what we think is the most likely candidate. The one that makes the most sense to us.

@ HighSeraphShin, I agree with PE's theory here. Most of the human population are nice honest peace-loving people. However we do get the occasional power-hungry (and / or) corrupt religious leader (eg. Osama bin Laden) who conveniently forget their own religion's teachings of peace and patience, and promote the annihilation of other religions / cultures for their glory.

In your example, how would you describe the recent America / Iraq war, and the Iraq / Kuwait war? Religious or political?

but mostly everybody in the world has a lower intellegence quoteint than me, so they cannot understand, this philosophy was burning in my head for years, i finally completed it.
Congratulations, now you have the right to demean everyone else's education. I also expect you to announce a cure for AIDS tomorrow. Just... err... work on your spelling, okay?

[stifflersthedog]

Hmm hmm i'd say "organized" religion can be stuck with the blame for the odd war here and there, but religion in its pure sense is not to blame for anything.

You gotta seperate these things, cause to generalize about a huge thing such as religion is asking for it.

[LiquidTheBrit]

Shinso, don't make me break out my metaphysics theories. >D [/friendly spam]

As Stifflers said, organized religion is more responsible for the wars, etc.

What really gets to me, though, is discrepancies within the same religion/religious sect. Like how people worshiped the Buddha, yet the Buddha told them not to.

[Unicorn]

What really gets to me, though, is discrepancies within the same religion/religious sect. Like how people worshiped the Buddha, yet the Buddha told them not to.

Yes, and how some people seem to think that Catholics and Christianity are totally different religions.

Like I said earlier, most of the people are fine and peaceful and nice. Its those leaders who are bad apples, and in turn taint whomever listens to their teachings.

We talk about organised religion like organised crime? hehehehehe.

[ezxx]

religion was invented to control the masses or because people were afraid of what's after death. Religions are instilled in kids from a very early age without a choice. I'm not a fan of religions. That said religion can still do good in this world , i'm not blind to that.

[experimentchoco]

I agree with Primera Espada. If politics weren't taking religion and using it as something to boost their own beliefs, I would say the world would be closer to being a better place.

But remember, some religions, have the same core beliefs. Well, I would say omre with the figures of worship. Like Jesus and the Buddha believed basically in the same thing and these two men were very much alike. Be kind, be a good person, and look out for others. And I think a lot of people miss that.

[emoloz]

Religion seems to be the "tool" for war. The only case to be really honest that i know of is when in Ireland Catholics darn right hated the Protestants and wanted to get rid of them out of island (there probs more but thats where my memory fails me). Though that is now not the case anymore due to the corrupt leader being kicked out some years back. I have no fault with religion, be what you want to be. One thing though don't let someone manipulate you with it especially if its for the bad like e.g war.

[Frosted Heart]

Religion in and of itself is not the cause of war. As others have already stated, most of these so-called holy men manipulate religion for their own ends. That doesn't make religion itself bad and unnecessary. And really, would eliminating religion erase all the wars in the world? I seriously doubt it. People will fight each other, no matter what, for many different reasons.

And erasing religion will also erase a lot of the good things it brings. It would eliminate a lot of hope, charity, etc. in this world too.

I for one believe in it, and I came to that conclusion by myself as well. My mother made me go to church when I was young, but I made the decision to stop believing a few years back. But after some thought and personal experiences, I started believing again. So not all religious people were forced into their beliefs.

[LiquidTheBrit]

I think that sometimes, people stereotype religious people as fanatics. I know I used to, and I know some people who used to. (However, I can't really account for the whole world, now can I?) A good Christian would be a 'nice' person, right?. They'd be generous, kind, compassionate, and generally follow Jesus' teachings. But because of my stereotype of religious people, I was sort of biased against them. (Not any more, thank Cthulhu, haha)

After some thinking and observing on my part, I noticed that nobody was going off forcing their religion on me. It was all just my own blindness. =/ so, I changed after that.

As so many people have said, it's the manipulative 'holy men'(Thanks FH for expanding my vocabulary by 1 word - I completely forgot 'manipulate' existed XP) that give religion a bad name amongst atheists. But we're all going off topic; The original topic was whether or not religion was false hope.

I agree that it is, however I still think that having any kind of hope is a good thing. Even if you cease to exist after you die, at least your last moment was a hopeful one, right? (Unless you were convinced you were going to hell, but even then, you don't have much room for uncertainty, yes?) And you won't be able to lament over the fact that your hope was false; you'd be unable to think. In my opinion, it's like when you have to go to the wherever(Pediatrician's, doctor's, hospital, etc) to get your shots. The ones with the needles, not the ones that go by the name of 'Single Action Army' or something. The scariest part is before getting your shots, but when you do get one, it's not so bad. But this is just my opinion. And it's a bit offtopic; sorry.

[Llama]

Jesus gives you a thumbs up Rin:

http://www.getreligion.org/wp-content/photos/BuddyJesus.jpg

And yes, like everyone els has said. Religion is not the cause of War. People are the cause of Wars.

[♠ Saint ♠]

First off, HO'DAMN! It's Llama! I remember you. o.o

Anyhow, to the topic. A line should be drawn between religion and faith. Faith being the more personal part of the spiritual aspect and religion being more of an external mechanism that has faith interpretted as something for the whole group and in some cases, dictated as faith. This is one of the reasons why I was hated in my mother's church and still am.

And yeah, people start wars. You've got to admit that there is some element of selfishness in suicide bombers and the like.

[stifflersthedog]

I dont believe the suicide bombers are selfish, i feel from what i've read and seen from reports, that they are usually "brainwashed" into believing they shall get a "harem full of virgins" in the afterlife, and that there cause is noble and that they shall be hailed as matyrs. The brainwashing comes from the elder priests who "mysteriously" aren't willing to blow themselves up for the cause >.> I think they justify it by saying that someone must remain to see the war through.

This is were organized religion goes very wrong imo, cause the teaching of the faith has been very much twisted and distorted to fit the Priests aims. Lots of Muslims have commented that the bombings go against the Koran (i dont wanna say to much seeing as i haven't yet read it).

[HighSeraphShin]

Ok, I believe that if your religion tells you to kill others for the sake of your owns, not exactly perse, kinda like a misunderstanding, sa?

Let me put it together peice by piece for those a little slow,


Their religion may say, that their religion is pure correct? but the people misinterpret it to be saying, "their religion is pure, others are not and must be destroyed", follow? Maybe they dont know that their killing is "wrong"... i dont follow any religion thogh, so i dont know what says who

anyway, back on topic, religion must be false hope for it is never actually proven to ever have miracles

[Jhaxe]

Religion is touchy. Truthfully, without first hand experience, there is no way to confirm that anything written about miracles in any religion actually took place. You can't ignore that there are things in the world that occur that no one can explain, but I don't think you can immediately contribute those factors to being religious miracles. There are so many infinite possibilities as to what truly lies beyond that it's impossible to be 100% sure until you get there.

[♠ Saint ♠]

@stiflersthedog That reminds me of something that Robin Williams said in his "Live on Broadway" show. "They are told that when they die, they will go to Paradise and be surrounded by 80 beautiful virgins... and anyone who has been with one virgin is going 'Well I dunno...' *shuffles his feet sheepishly*

A lot of things cannot be explained now that may be able to be explained in the future. I do not doubt the veracity of some miracles but I think sometimes, it's a good feeling to really believe there is someone intangible looking out for you.

[Shadoblak]

People flock to religion because they want answers...they need something to believe in, someone to tell them its alright. I believe myself that looking at many religions an ancient stories, that a grand number of similarities occur (I'm Christian btw) We are a scared, violent species..its not religion's fault, if it was, we could try to find the complete and total truth instead of fighting about it...Religion is perverted and used as an excuse for war, but without it, we would always find something to fight about....Wars have been fought for much less than what people believe in....Religion provides hope to the hopeless and I think you need to feel for yourself whats right....War wont stop. ever. Its a macabre prediction b ut its really the most realistic thing to say. There isn't really anything you could take away or add that would make this a peaceful world...Aside from lacing everything with LSD..

[HighSeraphShin]

Hmm, interesting theory but shall i concur?

Well, you say that without religion war will still go on correct? but isnt it religion that thrives the war? thrives the encouragement? thrives anything that anyone lives by? and if everybody was killing eachother for religion, and later we ind out it is all just fake, then wont we be killing eachother for the sake of nothing?

If there was no religion, there will be no problem with taking the oil from their "sacred land", or claiming which land is whose, but we are look at something less sophisticated than ourselves, think about this for a momment, would a sport fan want you to win if you were on the other team because a team would let them cure cancer if they won the prophits? no, because jocks are obsessed with winning for their own cause nomaatter what the benefits for the other team are, they must take this into account before abbolishing their reason, its the same thing with religion, Your religion may thrive, but another religion found a way to actually reach the "promised land", you wouldnt destroy your religion just to get to the promised land? correct? no?
Then why would they fight to gain something if there is indeed nothing to gain, now knowing that noone would go anywhere after death means that why would they end a beings soul for eternity, it makes no sense, agree?

Anyway, what im saying is war is useless if you once find out your going nowhere....wait...i just disproved myself....cool, but i guess your right, it wont stop....ever...damn...
Discuss this as a new topic

[gab00n]

Religion will die a slow and painful death.

~e

[stifflersthedog]

LoL @Highseperaph i fought my way throught that 2nd paragraph(which was horribly worded, no offense as i assume english aint your 1st language) only to find you had no point :P

Anyway no some "jocks" as you would call them would let the other team win, so thats not a good example really.

A good example would be that if you had two farmers with equal land, in a "perfect" communist state were there was no need for additional land. The one farmer would probably still try to take the other farmers land. Cause thats just how we are, we strive to be better than our fellow man, regardless of the reasons.

For that same reason a lack of Religion, will not lead to global peace, as we will instead fight over the oil rich land, or just fight over the land period, simply cause its there. One day we may not , we may become more enlightened, but for the mean time......

[Unicorn]

Ok, I believe that if your religion tells you to kill others for the sake of your owns, not exactly perse, kinda like a misunderstanding, sa?
I believe that you are referring to the religious fanatics who brainwash their followers. I assure you that the majority of people with religions are nice peaceful law-abiding citizens, who will not
simply 'misunderstand' teachings of tolerance vs teachings of 'wipe 'em all out'.

i dont follow any religion thogh, so i dont know what says who
…
anyway, back on topic, religion must be false hope for it is never actually proven to ever have miracles
Really? Have you done your research? Various cultures and religions have reported miracles. Some have shown pre- and post- medical reports, some have been canonized, some have had many witnesses.

Well, you say that without religion war will still go on correct? but isnt it religion that thrives the war? thrives the encouragement? thrives anything that anyone lives by?
I believe that money and political power rules the modern world. Hence the urge to gain more influence, gain more property, gain more riches.

I believe that you have not advised how you consider the Iraq / Kuwait and Iraq / USA war religious, and if so, how?

think about this for a momment, would a sport fan want you to win if you were on the other team because a team would let them cure cancer if they won the prophits?
What are prophits? Last I heard, winning sportspeople received trophies, medals and boasting rights. Not the right to cure cancer. Curing cancer was the domain of trained medical professionals. I’m not sure why you used this example.

Your religion may thrive, but another religion found a way to actually reach the "promised land", you wouldnt destroy your religion just to get to the promised land? correct? no?
Can't you simply convert to the other religion, rather than destroying your own religion?

Also, is there a religion that offers a signed money-and-life back guarantee of a promised ‘Happily Ever After’? If so, I, a proudly self-declared Agnostic, am signing up right now. Please tell me what religion is that?

Anyway, what im saying is war is useless if you once find out your going nowhere....wait...i just disproved myself....cool, but i guess your right, it wont stop....ever...damn...
Discuss this as a new topic
Okay. Err. Discuss what?

[LiquidTheBrit]

As loads of people have said, the war we're in has nothing to do with religion(At least on our part.).
Also, the reason why there hasn't been a cure for cancer sooner is because the treatment for cancer can get you much more money than an actual cure. Gotta love capitalism. (However, we'll have to stick with it until we can come up with something better. Until then, have fun with our growing dictatorship - something tells me there will be no 2008 election, though this is a completely different topic. Damn you, Dick Cheney)

I already answered the original question - whether or not religion is false hope. Shinso, start thinking out your posts thoroughly before you press that send button. And re-read your post to see if it's any good; make sure you didn't completely go off the original topic the post was on.

[Zelos]

ugh... religion :/ mixed feelings here as i mostly consider myself as agnostic. i had my own "experience" a year ago, so ever since then, ive found myself talking to a lot of people about their religion and other spiritual stuff... but its so confusing x_X nobody's ideas match and a lot of the time, they contradict each other, even though all ive been talking to were Christians D: even Christians within the same denominations have been contradicting each other x_X im not sure how i can really believe in something where theres so many different interpretations. then a lot of them really talk badly about other denominations :/ really doesnt make them look good at all. ive had a lot of conflicts with people with strong religious beliefs the last several months though i swear i havent been disrespecting them at all :/ they get so offended over little things all the time... confusing!! i really dont understand why theres so much variation in beliefs within one religion... and they all say that their way is "the truth" but not everyone can have the truth because everyones truths are different DX

i think my biggest problem with Christianity is my problem with understanding what its supposed to actually be .-. its more confusing than my calculus homework...

[shake]

it's a tool created by people to control the masses for their own gains

though it does good in the world, it gives people hope, a purpose in life and if they adhere to the core principals, they're good humans

[emoloz]

Guess you adopt a Marxist view of Religion then Shake? Learnt about that today. Very interesting i might say.

I agree war has nothing to do with Religion in itself people just try and use it as an excuse for war and try and manipulate it in wars to try and get people to agree with it. To me religion gives people hope. I think if people need guidance and a way of life that they need to follow sometimes i think Religion is the best way to go. Am sure you don't have to follow stricktly what each says but i suppose it can be a guidance to help people. I mean Marxists say Religion is created by man just to keep the ruling class opressing the subject class to keep capitalist society going. There just so much stuff with religion i doubt anyone will know whats right and wrong about it.

[shake]

it's close to marxist i guess, but i don't like my beliefs being grouped in with a general philosophy if you catch my drift

[Rain]

Personally i have no religion. I don't agree with following a set of beliefs or anything else related to being religious

This isn't to say i'm anti-religious. I'm glad that people have relgiion because for some people it gives them a sense of purpose but I don't think that religion should be included in anything public (politics, laws, schools and all that stuff) because it forces a religion on people

[manfan]

I believe in a religion. Personally I think men need a structure system to live by, especially in a society. Some people prefer to say that they live by their governments' set of laws, while others prefer to obey the laws set up by God.

I believe in this world, most set of the systems that now govern human lives, secular/non-secular are set up originally on the interest of one group of people, but not for everybod'y's best interest. That is why always, there will be a group of people who will not be satisfied with that system(secular/non-secular), condemning it to be unfair.

To live on a total secular world rules......do bring on emptiness and chaos in everybody. Do you agree?

[spacecat]

I find it hard to believe but I do hope for something after death. It makes it hard when you can't follow a religion so you seek other answers. I like to look at the paranormal and unexplained occurances for proof of life after death. Til I see some proof myself though, I can't believe it. I can't imagine a giant happy place called heaven, I'm too cynical and that is too unrealistic...I think maybe we have a soul and it moves on somewhere when we die, an astral plane or whatever, where I don't know. I'll tell you when I'm dead.

[Teishu Soukutsu]

Living in the most unreligious country in europe and maybe the world i should say that I really don't get this obsession about god and higher beings, you live you die, it's up to you how you waste the time you have... we all end up as fertilizer.. I've done fine with out religion and my whole family has...
I get that some ppl need to believe in something after death, but picking up a religion just for insurance is kind of degrading for everyone else who is a hardcore believer. O_o All i know is human beings can do anything... I'd love to be able to be reborn, but science is based on facts and if heaven isn't proven i'm not turning catholic or anything just to hear ''The jews were right'' once i'm in hell...

[Riekie]

Teishu: ever heard of Holland? the small country with the most 'religions' and erm..what's it called again besides non-believer? in the world. Argh...well, we have those as well:D

And ofcourse Heaven can't be proven by 'science', because well...the ones that died and will go there ofcourse can't tell...easy as that.

It's not that when you believe or don't you're suddenly a weird person, although people will look at you indifferently when you tell them oslt. We are all born and we all die...not something you can stop.

[Kalyrn]

I agree with Teishu Soukutsu. Why does there have to be something after, why is it not ok to make the most of what we know we have.

I think that people waste so much time worrying about the so called afterlife that they miss out on opportunities to make life, right now better, instead they worry about some mythical force's opinion of their life, instead of trying to live the best life they can.:headscratch

[Rain]

Riekie- is "atheist" the word you're looking for

Kalyrn- many people just feel that there is/should be something after life, there probably isn't more to it than that

Also, there is the idea that religion helps keep people good. People may do good deeds so they can go to heaven and not do evil things so they don't go to hell. if people don't care about any of that, they could just live their lives doing whatever they want, without any regard for others

[Unicorn]

I'd love to be able to be reborn, but science is based on facts and if heaven isn't proven i'm not turning catholic or anything just to hear ''The jews were right'' once i'm in hell...

I agree, Teishu. With several major religions in the world going "Unbelievers will burn for eternity in Hell!!!!!!!!", I figured we're all going Down Under anyway. Pack your swimsuits, suntan lotion and large straw hats, people... it's gonna be a warm warm afterlife. :p

edit: I believe that the Buddhist version of afterlife is the most fair... where you get reincarnated, and how you behave in your 'past life' directly influences how positive or negative your 'next life' will be.

[Riekie]

hmmm....reincarnation or reborn...I don't believe in that and I also don't want that to happen!! Why should I have twice the miserable or super life? once is enough. No wonder so many kill themselves..just to escape the life they are in right now and they definitely don't want to have a 'new' life with some alterations of the good or bad things you've done in the previous.

Sorry...offense? just imho.

[Unicorn]

Ah sorry I didn't explain myself clearly. Buddhist version of Reincarnation very loosely (IMHO, anyway) follows the 'do unto others what you want others to do unto you'. There's some cosmic balancing act going on. Means that :

- if you've been a bad person (eg. serial murderer), your 'next life' will be terrible to repay / balance out your previous actions.

- if you've been a decent person, your 'next life' will decent as well.

- If you've been Mother Theresa, your 'next life' will be filled with the blessings that your 'past life' has provided.

Hope it makes sense... kinda... :o

[Llama]

I agree with Riekie that I wouldn't want to live two or more lives. But not because my life is miserable, it's just that I'd rather have eternal happiness in heaven with God. And I'm sorry Unicorn that you were surrounded my radical Christian believers it seems instead of the level headed ones.

And Riekie, people don't commit suicide to escape their miserable lives, it's more of a cry for help because they want to live. People who commit suicide just want the pain to go away and the only way that comes to mind is suicide. They want to live, but they see no other way. That's why if you know someone is going to commit suicide, you should try to talk them out of it.

[Riekie]

@Llama: yeah I know about fleeing the pain you/they have now and just want it to go away. I worded it wrongly in my previous comment;)

[stark espada]

I was adopted by the radical catholics group and I was already a atheist they tried to change me by making me go to crutch but that gave me less belief in the hole religion thing know I am the black sheep as they put it because i am not a catholic. But they priest would word it like you do one bad thing and you screwed what kinda of god would do that.

[manfan]

Apparently I'm going to be the bad guy here....
Living in the most unreligious country in europe and maybe the world i should say that I really don't get this obsession about god and higher beings, you live you die, it's up to you how you waste the time you have... we all end up as fertilizer.. I've done fine with out religion and my whole family has...
I get that some ppl need to believe in something after death, but picking up a religion just for insurance is kind of degrading for everyone else who is a hardcore believer. O_o All i know is human beings can do anything... I'd love to be able to be reborn, but science is based on facts and if heaven isn't proven i'm not turning catholic or anything just to hear ''The jews were right'' once i'm in hell...
Sadly I can see from their point of view, about being the right group, the better people. It makes sense no? Heaven is not exactly for all, no....and is certainly not for people who refuse Him, no? God just cannot be on everybody's side, especially on the two people who are against each other, no?

I agree with Teishu Soukutsu. Why does there have to be something after, why is it not ok to make the most of what we know we have.

I think that people waste so much time worrying about the so called afterlife that they miss out on opportunities to make life, right now better, instead they worry about some mythical force's opinion of their life, instead of trying to live the best life they can.:headscratch

Because people tend to worry over things that are of uncertain....the future. They worry what will happen to them in the next one/two/three/ten/twenty years, what makes you think they don't worry about 'What happens in next after death?'

Hence......'I better get myself an insurance' for this matter.

But really......


I think that people waste so much time worrying about the so called afterlife that they miss out on opportunities to make life, right now better, instead they worry about some mythical force's opinion of their life, instead of trying to live the best life they can.:headscratch
I don't believe that is the one thing that keeps people worrying about everynight, the afterlife thing, unless they are diagnosed with a terminal disease and has only a short moment to live. Generally it's money, friends, love and family, no? See they are trying to live their life.

[spacecat]

I agree with Teishu Soukutsu. Why does there have to be something after, why is it not ok to make the most of what we know we have.

I think that people waste so much time worrying about the so called afterlife that they miss out on opportunities to make life, right now better, instead they worry about some mythical force's opinion of their life, instead of trying to live the best life they can.:headscratch
There doesn't HAVE to be something after but it can be nice to think so. Ever lose someone you care about? It's natural human behaviour to hope that you can see them again someday in another place. It doesn't mean it's there but it is a simple psychological fact that most people during their lives will hope/wish for an afterlife, usually after losing someone they cared about. That's why at this time many non religious people turn to religion. After losing loved one's I still couldn't turn to religion but I have naturally hoped I can somehow see them again one day and don't think anyone can say we know for a fact that this can't/won't happen even though the reality is it could very well be that way. We just don't know..........hence why these debates go on and on without resolve. Like i said before, I'll tell you all about it when I'm dead :p

[manfan]

My greatest fear isn't hell / heaven....I'm only worried over how I live my life....whether I'm leading a useful life, doing it right and not wrong...God approved, I don't owe people, I don't resort to corruption / cheat but still get rich:P I want to live a fullfilling life, reaching all my goals, so then I can then brag later on with my friends in my afterlife. :cool: And people on earth will remember me after I'm gone.

[Ileenka]

My greatest fear isn't hell / heaven....I'm only worried over how I live my life....whether I'm leading a useful life, doing it right and not wrong...God approved, I don't owe people, I don't resort to corruption / cheat but still get rich:P I want to live a fullfilling life, reaching all my goals, so then I can then brag later on with my friends in my afterlife. :cool: And people on earth will remember me after I'm gone.

So let me get this straight. You do not worry about hell or heaven. But you want your actions to be approved by God? :headscratch And you want to live a life so you can brag about it when you go to heaven/hell? :headscratch

But it's okay, asam, I will be sure to remember you when you are gone. :hug You have made such a difference wherever you go. Amen.

[Kalyrn]

Spacecat I get where you are coming from and I understand that people naturally wish for some way to meet again those people that they lost. I do understand that desire. I guess where I have an issue with is not one person's hope for an after life. My problem with, I guess, religion is those people who live like that intangible after life is all that matters. Like pleasing god is more important than helping someone in need or recognizing the good in people who don't necessary believe in the exact same things as you.

@ manfan I have no idea what you are trying to say.:confused:

[manfan]

@ manfan I have no idea what you are trying to say.:confused:
I sounded cryptic, I know....but that is how I am personally. I am totally different from you, isn't it?

Heaven isn't the same if you don't have your loved ones, families and friends with you. I would feel very terrible in every second if I know my own intermmediate family members are suffering in hell, while I enjoy myself in Heaven.....if my parent is in hell I would ask God to have me take his place.....if that is possible, but I doubt it is possible.

That is why a lot of people out there try to convert others, especially their friends and family members in hope that these people would get a place in heaven......you don't hear so often people wishing their foes/enemies/people they don't like to be in heaven do you?

But I do believe living a life to the fullest on earth is important, not living with fear or guilty conscience. And I find living in that manner is possible if you were to follow a certain set of rules set by God. I expect a two way thing---I fulfill my part of the deal, God fulfill His part of deal(provide my needs and protect me).....it wouldn't be fair if God keeps His part of the deal, but I don't or vice-versa. And if He doesn't keep His deal.....I would not have Him as my God. That's why I say I want my life to be approved by Him, and then in return He would help me. Living in this world is scary without someone big and strong to protect me.....especially if the opposing forces are unseen. But most of the time it is me who breaks away from the deal/agreement....not Him.

And it isn't cool if you go to heaven, when you are poor on earth you know......

[spacecat]

Spacecat I get where you are coming from and I understand that people naturally wish for some way to meet again those people that they lost. I do understand that desire. I guess where I have an issue with is not one person's hope for an after life. My problem with, I guess, religion is those people who live like that intangible after life is all that matters. Like pleasing god is more important than helping someone in need or recognizing the good in people who don't necessary believe in the exact same things as you.

@ manfan I have no idea what you are trying to say.:confused:
Ah trueness well yeah I don't like that either. I think spending half your day praying and such is a waste of time when you could be living your life also, but in saying that I am probably disrespecting a lot of ppls religions and I do not really want to do that. To each their own, but thanks for clearing it up and yeah I definitely agree.

[Guildenstern]

I went to 5 years of Bible seminary in high school/college haha. ^^; I don't really seem like the type, do I? XD Eventually I left because I realized that organized mainstream religion generally demeans my intelligence as a woman and assigns me to a subservient role I do not enjoy. God gave me a brain, it's a crime not to use it.

Religion is no panacea for all the ills of society, and dogma is nothing but a crutch for the fearful and a barrier to keep out those that religions deem 'unworthy' and don't want around, or they're a throwback to wisdom from older times that got included in holy books by men and are now taken as God-given truth. I mean...don't wear mixed fibres? No pork or shellfish? Don't cut your beard? XD There might have been reasonable reasons centuries ago to do these things, but not anymore, and those are the parts of holy books that should be altered or changed in execution to fit the times.

After all that studying, I came away from it with one thing that I feel holds true for every culture and every religion all around the world-- the one religious rule that will keep you happy: Do what you want, as long as you're not hurting others or yourself. That's it. XD Strive to make people happy in life as you go through it, try to minimize pain given to others. Charity, introspective thought, kindness, happiness. Respect the lives of animals- don't be cruel to them, if you have to kill them do it humanely and with dignity. Respect the enviroment-- don't dump trash, don't be wasteful. That's all you need, not a pile of ill-judged and ultimately useless man-made dogma. It's super good karma. :3

[Mei]

Guild-sama xD I agree +kyaah+ <33

I went to a catholic private school for 8 years, we prayed every morning (in German, English, French and Latin), with nuns as some of my teachers..........@@ only girls, no boys, catholic, 8 years ._____.

What I gained: not to believe in the institution church anymore (though I went to church every sunday with my very catholic parents (I don´t do that anymore since I´m 18) before), questioning the church´s history (crusades, inquisition, burning of women, obstacle to enlightenment of mankind, causing wars in the name of Christ, dark middle ages).

What I now believe: in God, in love, in everything I can agree with of the church´s teaching....

[Primera Espada]

It's kind of strange how radically different peoples catholic experiences are.

Like stark for instance. The notion that any catholic priest would imply that a sin is unforgivable is... odd.

Mostly cause to say such a thing is blasphemy, and directly contradicts the catholic church's confession system. So if a priest said that, well, that priest is operating outside the rules of catholicism.

Same with people who feel women are oppressed. It contradicts fundamental aspects of Catholicism. I mean, the number of passages I could find in the bible that states that a man should respect a woman as an equal... seriously, how do people get these things confused?

Especially in catholicism, which has a rulebook explaining the catholic church's belief and interpretation of everything.

And then there's the whole vatican thing, and the constant review of various church doctrines to ensure accurate interpretations.

Like, I could understand protestant groups doing that, since they are largely un-coordinated. There's no hierarchy or system to most of them, it's a LOT easier to have variations on a case to case basis.

It just shocks me that the most organized Christian religion has so many practitioners flat out disobeying their orders o.O

[Llama]

I think it's because some of the feminists believe not being able to become a priest is discrimination, when it's not.

I believe this explains it all: http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/WHYWOMEN.TXT

[Guildenstern]

It just shocks me that the most organized Christian religion has so many practitioners flat out disobeying their orders o.O

Well, hell, even Catholicism has it. Catholics get divorces, use birth control, etc, all the time. Indulgences get. Their 'orders' are based on an outdated system imposed by an assortment of (compared to the present day) uneducated, bigoted old men. We're a different kind of people now from the sociopolitical dumbasses we were back in the day most of these religious texts were written. We shouldn't keep doing something just because a book tells us to-- God gave us brains, let's use them.

I think it's because some of the feminists believe not being able to become a priest is discrimination, when it's not.

I believe this explains it all: http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/WHYWOMEN.TXT
Well, I never wanted to become a priest (I'd be bad at it, most likely), but I see no reasonable reason why they shouldn't be allowed to become one. Of course the reason given for why they cannot always goes back to the same old tired 'The Bible says no' reasoning and you can't reason people out of tired old dogma...so I suppose the churches that ban women from doing it will simply lose members. /shrug

Also, if by 'feminist' you mean 'women whose brains function independantly from their uteruses', yeah, you probably get a few of those trying to become priests. :rolleyes:

[Llama]

Lol, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against independent woman. I hope to actually marry one day. I guess I shouldn't have generalized since i also hate that. So what's the word I'm looking for? Ah yes, extreme feminists are the ones I have a problem with.

[manfan]

It's kind of strange how radically different peoples catholic experiences are.

Like stark for instance. The notion that any catholic priest would imply that a sin is unforgivable is... odd.

Mostly cause to say such a thing is blasphemy, and directly contradicts the catholic church's confession system. So if a priest said that, well, that priest is operating outside the rules of catholicism.

Same with people who feel women are oppressed. It contradicts fundamental aspects of Catholicism. I mean, the number of passages I could find in the bible that states that a man should respect a woman as an equal... seriously, how do people get these things confused?

Especially in catholicism, which has a rulebook explaining the catholic church's belief and interpretation of everything.

And then there's the whole vatican thing, and the constant review of various church doctrines to ensure accurate interpretations.

Like, I could understand protestant groups doing that, since they are largely un-coordinated. There's no hierarchy or system to most of them, it's a LOT easier to have variations on a case to case basis.

It just shocks me that the most organized Christian religion has so many practitioners flat out disobeying their orders o.O

I'm not going to defend / promote/ stain any Charistian denomination.....it's true that religion is supposedly set of rules set by gods for humans on how to live on this earth. But as time passed by, rules are altered, deleted or and added by humans, humans who are considered to be nearer to God than the others. And very often, these humans are not as what they claim to be; priests, prophets, monks, holy men....humans who use spiritual matters / gods as means to get a better deal over the others, better deals like money, power, influence, support, women etc. And other people who are very weak are very susceptible to them, and would do anything to gain favour from them, at least to gain favour from God, so that their lives would have a turn of good luck.

I do agree that people should use their brains in everything.....but to be honest, I think that nowadays generally people are not using their brains right, ie they cannot think right. Let's just say that the brain inputs are just not the right stuffs to be able to come out . And besides with the emotions that comes with it, plus life experiences…..a lot of decisions / conclusions made are always considered wrong in the eyes of others.

Therefore both are wrong….the people who help set the rules of God and the people who think they are using their brain and claim to see the supposedly flawed system.wrong.

But seriously, in my conversation with different people in this matter, I feel everybody have already made up their mind. Like I said, it’s no point to bring a sick hag into the river and force her to drink, when she shuts her mouth and eyes, refusing to accept what it is inevitable. I’ve seen a lot of arguments put in front of me that is the same old, same old….ones that were brought out by supposedly famous anti-apologetic but were countered already…..but still get propogated around by the parroting followers (ie trolls).

[Unicorn]

Okay, there's a clause in the Bible that has me confused. Different people have
differing opinions about it.

PE (refer quote in above post) has stated that the Bible teaches respect to women.

Mitz has stated that the Bible teaches that women should be submissive to husbands (and I presume other males in her life, eg. father, brother?)

So... which is correct? If Mitz's version is correct, then how submissive must she behave?

[Mei]

I´m all for equality and stictly against the opression of women.
I even hate the thought that women shall be submissive to men, be it their husbands, fathers or brothers. Really, I don´t see one reason why this thought is justified.
It had been women who first witnessed Jesus resurrection, it had been women who accompanied him to his crucifixion.

Mitz, you can try and give me just one reason/ justification, why women aren´t equal to men and why they shall subject themselves to men, why men deserve to stand above them, why they´re allowed to oppress them, forbid them to live their life just as they want to.

[manfan]

Okay, there's a clause in the Bible that has me confused. Different people have
differing opinions about it.

PE (refer quote in above post) has stated that the Bible teaches respect to women.

Mitz has stated that the Bible teaches that women should be submissive to husbands (and I presume other males in her life, eg. father, brother?)

So... which is correct? If Mitz's version is correct, then how submissive must she behave?

So.....now religion discussion gets to be dragged into this.

Jaa.......since I'm not the type who likes to generalize things, I speak for myself only....then may I ask.....what type of religion are you referring to? The thread itself is entitled, 'Religion'....so that would comprise of various religions, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Sai Babas....and if it is Christianity.....then what denomination, Protestants, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, independants.....or Catholicsms?

From the last time I've read, Catholicsm is very different(I didn't say totally, slightly......I just say very) from the Christians.

You wouldn't associate Christianity with Islam, would you?

Edit: No. Islam has the Koran. I did clearly specify that I was asking about the Bible. Which is related to Catholics and Christians (and whatever branches), which some factions believe to be similar. ~ Unicorn


MeiYara.....I know you are from Catholic education system.....try not to be righteous about breaking out from it.....it as in stop being a Catholic/Christian(which ever you like).

Edit: I did ask for a POV on the Bible. How can MeiYara take part in a Bible discussion without being Catholic / Christian?

btw, since you seem to want disclaimers today, I am an Agnostic, therefore I am waiting for others to input their views on it before I post my views on it. Also, since I'm an Agnostic living in a Christian household and have attended a Catholic school, I kinda know what the Bible is about, in general. ~ Unicorn

[Hiraeth]

Because this interests me, I Wikipedia-ed it (yes I know bad me) and found these were the most important statements regarding women submitting to men:

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(Ephesians 5:22-24, KJV)

Unicorn- does that relate to your question?

[Unicorn]

It does, thank you. That paragraph seems pretty general and just states that the women should submit in all ways. Are there any more examples of how the women should submit?

I am really interested about this because I do want to know about the restrictions to the wife - what happens if the wife wishes to progress her career in another country? Or do something else that she wants to do (take up a hobby, make other friends, start a business etc)? Does the husband have the right to restrict her? Is there a limit?

I distinctly remember reading some Bible verses that state that
- Eve was created from Adam's rib (not from foot) so that she can stand beside him as his equal.

[Hiraeth]

Well I'm not really a Christian so I'm probably the wrong person to be talking about this with. I'd recommend taking a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_about_women
It sums both sides of the argument up pretty well.

I'm actually pretty much a pagan, so the Adam and Eve story I like is the one involving Lillith. God saw that Adam was lonely so formed Lillith out of the clay he'd made Adam from. Lillith refused to submit to Adam, saying that since they'd been created the same way they were equal. Then God cast her out of Eden and created Eve out of Adam's rib so that she would submit to him. According to the Talmud Lillith was actually a demon that ate male children, but I can't help but like her after that story.

Anyway I guess that again involves women submitting to men, but the story isn't actually directly from the Bible so I don't know how much it relates.

[Mei]

Yea, I definitely like the Genesis story involving Lilith way better than the one with Eve. Lilith was as tall as Adam (same body height) and she refused to lie beneath Adam, while they had sex, so that didn´t please Adam and he wanted to expel her afterwards. She wanted to be treated equally and went voluntarily IIRC, she then ate demons and/ or made them her children...@@
(sorry, that´s just what I read somewhere some time ago)

[Hiraeth]

The version I heard, she slept with the fallen angel Sammael and spawned thousands of demons. I think that's just the writer trying to keep down an independent woman by making her seem evil. Then again that's only my opinion.

[negativzero]

Sigh, this is why I hate bible bashers and people who take the text out of context. They think they know the bible better than Christians. If you continue to read the entire paragraph, you would know more clearly, what St. Paul was trying to say, so don't go off and quote like 3 lines of text as the complete truth when it isn't.

Here is what it says as you read on.

22
Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord:
23
Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.
24
Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.
25
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:
26
That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:
27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish.
28
So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself.
29
For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church:
30
Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh.
32
This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.
33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

Ephesians 5:22-33 Douay Rheims Bible

[Hiraeth]

Excuse me? I hope you aren't saying that I am being a Bible basher? What from my posts would have given that impression? I simply gave information I had found, I did not attempt to interpret it in any way. I said that I found it in Wikipedia and gave the link to the page.

If in doing that I somehow offended you, I apologize, I would not appreciate it if someone attempted interpret my religious beliefs, and did so wrongly, so I try and refrain from doing the same to others.

[Mei]

Yea, well, I for one have a problem with this paragraph:
and let the wife fear her husband. @__@
Fear.....why fear...? Uuugh, equality anybody? =___=

As long as the husband isn´t babbling BS and actually has some brain cells, has good ideas and wants the best for his family, then it´s okay I guess, I´d call it mutual respect, acceptance, appreciation and love.
But, just imagine the husband is one of a kind, who beats his woman, mistreats his children, just causes trouble and causes the ruin of his family, puts them down and brings every member of the family to feel bad, ill and depressed. How can a human being.....fear such an individual, feel respect and subject themselves to such a........@__@ BS babbling, unworthy person, if all he´s doing is thinking about himself. =___=
In such a case: would a woman have to respect/ fear such a tyrant...?
I can´t and don´t want to imagine sth like that.

[negativzero]

Excuse me? I hope you aren't saying that I am being a Bible basher? What from my posts would have given that impression? I simply gave information I had found, I did not attempt to interpret it in any way. I said that I found it in Wikipedia and gave the link to the page.

If in doing that I somehow offended you, I apologize, I would not appreciate it if someone attempted interpret my religious beliefs, and did so wrongly, so I try and refrain from doing the same to others.I gotta apologise to you too. I wasn't referring to you, just to others in general who think they know everything when all they do is sit down and attack people on their faith when they don't really know what it is about.

Mei: Again, here, this is looking out of context. Now this is a little different way to look at things, here is how I can explain it simplest. Its gotta do with there having different translations of the Bible being present, remember the orginal language of the Bible was not English, but was a mix of Greek, Hebrew and other languages. And there having multiple translations of the same text or different scripts. So, if you look at the different translations of the Bible, some will not say fear, some will say revere, and others will say respect.
I personally like this version, because it was translated from Latin, which is one of the most consistent languages. Anyways, the idea is to not look at it from just one angle. And come on, this is just crazy, why would anyone ever want to worship a God who asks women to fear their men.

[manfan]

I suppose you guys are talking about the treatment between husband and wife in a Christian term, isn't it? Nothing to do with :rolleyes:female equalism, whatsoever right?

Then, shall we talk about husband and wife in Christianity term....MY STAND....
you can choose to accept or reject with that kind of statements.



If there is one thing I learn, not only in Bleach.....is how generally easy people pick only a few lines and then trumpet it out, to support their points....without even looking at it in context.

The person quoted only THREE verses out of the whole passage (thirteen verses) that talk about how husband and wife should treat each other). That very three passage talks about poor wife's role only, but not the poor husband's role.

Even if you are not a Christian, you shouldn't be quoting just that few lines, it's not cool, you know.;)

I quote the whole passage(Ephesians 5:21 - 33)....and bolded the important portions....

Spirit-Guided Relationships: Wives and Husbands
21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of his body, the church. 24 As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.
25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. 27 He did this [B]to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. 29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. 30 And we are members of his body.

31 As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.”[c] 32 This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. 33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

So now..... a woman must submit herself to the husband, okay.... that sounds not very nice.....but what is the husband's role to his wife? He must love her like he loves his body.

Have you ever found anyone, human with brain, feelings and needs....claiming to love his body, but torture his body by chopping his arms himself, whipping his own body with wire, or freeze his body to death? Any normal man(or woman) wouldn't do that, would he/she? He would feed himself(to ensure that he wouldn't starve to death), he would cloth himself(so that he wouldn't feel shame), he would clean himself(so that he doesn't stink), he would buy himself a comfortable bed so that he can sleep soundly well, he would buy himself a pair of shoes, so that his feet wouldn't get hurt by sharp stones.

It's analoguous....that if a man were to hurt his wife(mentally/emotionally/physically).....he's hurting his own body.

And Christ, love the Church, His Bride so much....that He gave up His Life for His Bride......husbands are also told to love like that, to give up everything for his wife.

Is that too much to ask from a wife, to submit herself to him....if he loves her the way he loves his body, ....he even gives up his life for her.....can't she listen to what he says to her? After all, he wouldn't be asking her to do something that would hurt her, cause then, it would hurt his own body, wouldn't it?

It's funny, in verse 21, there is no mentions about women / men gender, rather the phrase 'submit to each other out of reverence to Christ'. So, men too are asked to submit to women, just as women are asked to submit to men.....it doesn't just apply on husband and wife, but men and women in general.

A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one....the man no longer needs to depend/cling to his parents, but clings and depends to his wife (like how he cling/depend to his parents) because they are one.


According to the bible....the man is made complete by his wife


But we have strong-opionated, self-dubbed feminist who think that Christian women are being ill-treated by Christian men in the bible, just because of the word 'submit to your husband'. ;)


Edit: I took out the giant quotes because you were not discussing it specifically. I also took out the off-topic justifications why you:
- think that Islam was related to Catholic / Christian / other denominations that use the Bible as a holy book.
- want to know what manner of women are being discussed here. Does it really matter? Unless of course the Bible states that women with different job titles and social statuses should be treated differently.

The reason why I brought this topic up in the first place was because Mitz was going around spamming that women should be submissive, and I wanted to know more about this. Self dubbed feminist? Why thank you, I think.

[Mei]

Nez:

Mei: Again, here, this is looking out of context. Now this is a little different way to look at things, here is how I can explain it simplest. Its gotta do with there having different translations of the Bible being present, remember the orginal language of the Bible was not English, but was a mix of Greek, Hebrew and other languages. And there having multiple translations of the same text or different scripts. So, if you look at the different translations of the Bible, some will not say fear, some will say revere, and others will say respect.
I personally like this version, because it was translated from Latin, which is one of the most consistent languages. Anyways, the idea is to not look at it from just one angle. And come on, this is just crazy, why would anyone ever want to worship a God who asks women to fear their men.

I understand you, Nez. :)
I know that the bible was written in more than one language and that translations may vary. All I wanted to say is: to "fear" a husband is a bit too much imo. I don´t think that a love relationship built on fear will make neither the wife, nor the husband happy in the long run. Personally, I think that it´s best for a couple to be friends (first) and see each other as equals. ^_^
I have no problem with the translation "respect" or "revere", though I´d expect the same of the husband in return. :)

[manfan]

Mei: Again, here, this is looking out of context. Now this is a little different way to look at things, here is how I can explain it simplest. Its gotta do with there having different translations of the Bible being present, remember the orginal language of the Bible was not English, but was a mix of Greek, Hebrew and other languages. And there having multiple translations of the same text or different scripts. So, if you look at the different translations of the Bible, some will not say fear, some will say revere, and others will say respect.
I personally like this version, because it was translated from Latin, which is one of the most consistent languages. Anyways, the idea is to not look at it from just one angle. And come on, this is just crazy, why would anyone ever want to worship a God who asks women to fear their men.

I never like doing Bible apologetics.......it's like doing long Bleach pairing essays, which people would probably not read, and even they read it, they'd probably forget it.

In the New Testament, there are few Greek words which gives general meaning of submit/subject oneself/serve,

but they are applied in different context..

douleo

hupakouo

hupeiko

hupatasso



douleo ~~ is usually used for slavery, to give up the rights of oneself up to another person(who is of higher authority); to sell himself/herself to another master. You can 'douleo' yourself for the nation's cause by toiling on the hot sun.
eg:
24No one can serve(douleo) two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. (Matthew 6:24)

29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving(douleo) for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. (Luke 15:29)


hupakouo ~~ hearken(listen attentively), obey
You also listen to the person(older/higher status), but you do not necessarily need to obey everywords they say(but very often you do). It is often implies of inward respect and honour from the listener to the speaker.

eg:
6like Sarah, who obeyed(hupakouo) Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.(1 Peter 3:6)

1Children, obey(hupakouo) your parents in the Lord, for this is right.(Ephesians 6:1)


hupeiko ~~ to resist no longer, but to give way, yield (of combatants) , -- to submit/surrender to authority and admonition. --to purposely be weak.

17Obey(hupeiko) your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey(hupeiko) them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.(Hebrews 13:17).



hupatasso--to arrange in order under.....to voluntarily set yourself under the authority of a person; in love, it's a decision you make yourself. and it's a continuous decision.


21 And further, submit(hupatasso) to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5:21) [No specific gender involved.....men are to submit to men/women, just as women are to submit to women/men]

22Wives, submit(hupatasso) to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits(hupatasso) to Christ, so also wives should submit(hupatasso) to their husbands in everything. (Ephesians 5:22 - 24)




The Greek word 'submit' or hupatasso in Ephesians 5:22-24, doesn't mean that the husband ill-treats the wife like a slave.....it's the wife's decision whether to be submissive to the husband or not.....provided the husband do his part.


It really cannot be one-way thing relationship.....the man plays his part, the woman will play her part too.

[manfan]

In referrrence to Unicorn's post....

Edit: I took out the giant quotes because you were not discussing it specifically. I also took out the off-topic justifications why you:
- think that Islam was related to Catholic / Christian / other denominations that use the Bible as a holy book.
- want to know what manner of women are being discussed here. Does it really matter? Unless of course the Bible states that women with different job titles and social statuses should be treated differently.

The reason why I brought this topic up in the first place was because Mitz was going around spamming that women should be submissive, and I wanted to know more about this. Self dubbed feminist? Why thank you, I think.
You know....people generally have wrong concepts of a religion which they are not in. For all I know, they say Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the same, hence......wife being submitted to husband in Christianity, is more or less the same like how the wife is being treated in Islam/Judaism.

We more or less, see these over here, no?.....people trolling/spamming around with stuffs like that, stuffs that they have not dwell into it, repeating what other people has being saying(and still not use their head:yell).


Not trying to side anybody, I think people here(including me) often spam with jokes, but are taken seriously by others who prejudice(us), hence --> we get flames all over. And I'm sure, that 'sex before marriage' discussion flame/baiting is not started by him......he just joined in to interrupt a fight(though it does seem like him initiating it.....it's probably his weird way of complementing others.....there are people who do insults, to complement, like IchiKiai >.<). It's started by someone who just can't sop, persisting on insulting another's person's intelligence and principles.

I'm sure there are various aspects of dicussions on women in the Bible, their inequality treatment in compared to men.....that can be lengthy discussed, which I'm not interested to discuss; women problem in Christianity. You should start such thread, not do it over here.....I'm sure there are a lot of people who would want to join in....it's a little bit sensitive to do so here IMO.

But it's true, no? That people, if they are not in the same camp/team would generally have a wrong concept of us, and tend to badger us over that supposedly 'errorneous thing' no?

What then should we do? Should we fight on, counter them? Or let it go.....those trollers(people who troll around)?


PS:....I stand on the grounds that all religions are not the same, and shouldn't be conglomerated as one.....taking the good points only, and leaving the bad points out, replacing them from other religions' teaching.

'Religion' thread title is too general a topic to discuss I think.

[Hiraeth]

So manfan, what we're basically to understand from your post is that non-Christians wouldn't understand and you can't be bothered explaining?

Hang on you were the one who lumped different religions together and now you're saying that you don't believe in doing so?

[manfan]

So manfan, what we're basically to understand from your post is that non-Christians wouldn't understand and you can't be bothered explaining?

I realized, there are a lot of things that I can't be bothered explaining....not just religion.

But the question here is....should we be standing up against those who put down our religion....or should we let this thing go on, let them go on doing so?

There is a saying.....'Come and live with me, and you will know me.....not visit me and you will know me'.


Hang on you were the one who lumped different religions together and now you're saying that you don't believe in doing so?
I said people generally tend to lump different religions together.

I didn't say I do, didn't I? Besides, why then did I ask Unicorn to be more specific?

[Hiraeth]

I give up. You've missed the point completely. That was not the question. No one was trying to put down your religion.

It's like you asking me 'So according to some stuff I've read, you pagans believe in more than one god?'
and me replying with 'Don't you lump me in with wiccans and zoroastrians etc. How dare you pass judgement on my religion, you're not a part of it so you wouldn't understand.'

See?

[Unicorn]

I think that whole rant was directed to me, Hiraeth. Thanks to the others for responding.

You know....people generally have wrong concepts of a religion which they are not in. For all I know, they say Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the same, hence......
But I did specifically say 'Bible' and I asked about a clause in the Bible, didn't I? I don't believe I insulted any part of the Bible, I just wanted to know more about the differences.

FYI, Judaism's holy book is the Torah, and Islam's holy book is the Koran. I believe that only you are getting confused with this '3 religions are the same' concept.

people trolling/spamming around with stuffs like that, stuffs that they have not dwell into it, repeating what other people has being saying(and still not use their head:yell). ... I think people here(including me) often spam with jokes
You're the one that's not really reading our posts, spam with 'jokes' and quoting giant chunks of text without explaining. Are you a troll, then?

there are people who do insults, to complement, like IchiKiai >.<).
Another spammy joke, manfan? Because I don't understand how insults of any kind can be funny / complimentary / whatever else you think it means.

I'm sure there are various aspects of dicussions on women in the Bible, their inequality treatment in compared to men.....that can be lengthy discussed, which I'm not interested to discuss; women problem in Christianity.
Then why post in the debate thread? Unless it is to troll?

You should start such thread, not do it over here.....I'm sure there are a lot of people who would want to join in....it's a little bit sensitive to do so here IMO.
Why is the religion thread the wrong place to discuss religion? I did ask a specific query, so am not entirely sure why you insist on linking an overall general title to a current topic of discussion.

But it's true, no? That people, if they are not in the same camp/team would generally have a wrong concept of us, and tend to badger us over that supposedly 'errorneous thing' no?
That's why I posted the query on the debate thread. Which you have spammed, didn't really contribute to the query at hand, trolled and now announce that you refuse to answer.

What then should we do? Should we fight on, counter them? Or let it go.....those trollers(people who troll around)?
Answering queries would be a good start, methinks.

PS:....I stand on the grounds that all religions are not the same, and shouldn't be conglomerated as one.....taking the good points only, and leaving the bad points out, replacing them from other religions' teaching.]
Am confused about this bit, no-one said anything about combining everything to make a super-religion. So... you're not going to contribute any more to the specific topic at hand? Good.

'Religion' thread title is too general a topic to discuss I think.
Once again, why link the general title to a very related, yet specific and current topic of discussion?

[manfan]

I give up. You've missed the point completely. That was not the question. No one was trying to put down your religion.

It's like you asking me 'So according to some stuff I've read, you pagans believe in more than one god?'
and me replying with 'Don't you lump me in with wiccans and zoroastrians etc. How dare you pass judgement on my religion, you're not a part of it so you wouldn't understand.'

See?
No, I wasn't targeting on you only.....you only think yourself being targeted by me. I was targetting on people who says, 'OMG this-so-and-so-verse is so bad, not suited for modern times, especially women!:yell Women are being treated like slaves, they are told to submit themselves to their husbands:yell--no modern'.....without even reading the other portions. or 'Mr so-and-so is of this religion too, believes this too:yell so old fashion and no liberation':yell

Yep, all revolves around a few picked lines that are thought to be to their advantages. Then comes the wannabes-defender/prosecutors who then use the same arguements set by others,...but never bothered to check the sources.

If you think that's you, be my guest.:) What you do after this, is entirely yours and yours alone. People wishing to continue on in their self-ignorance, or seek to change ther mentality, is really up to them; nobody else can change that.

The same goes to you, Unicorn.....:) If you think I'm against you, specifically you.....be my guest. It shouldn't bother you whether I'm going against you, and neither should I be bothered with whether you are going against me specifically.

I'm not going to respond every of your counter reply, when my earlier post was meant to be read as a whole. Except a few.....

But I did specifically say 'Bible' and I asked about a clause in the Bible, didn't I? I don't believe I insulted any part of the Bible, I just wanted to know more about the differences.

Saah, so you did ask for a clause, but not the whole thing, didn't you?

It kinda triggered everything,.....here......then, I blame you, regardless of whatever your good intention is. Cause if I didn't step in(no, I'm not being boastful....I don't take any pride in this), the thread would have turned into 'Women are ill-treated in Christianity' bashs......it might then lead to 'Christianity is wrong, homosexuality is alright.'


FYI, Judaism's holy book is the Torah, and Islam's holy book is the Koran. I believe that only you are getting confused with this '3 religions are the same' concept.
IN MY OPINION(yes, it's my opinion....you can choose to agree/not agree, Unicorn).....you, Unicorn kinda have a superficial knowledge. The books may be called in a different name, but the contents of the books, a majority of them are similar, they supposedly to be talking of the same people in the past.

You're the one that's not really reading our posts, spam with 'jokes' and quoting giant chunks of text without explaining. Are you a troll, then?...

Then why post in the debate thread? Unless it is to troll?....

That's why I posted the query on the debate thread. Which you have spammed, didn't really contribute to the query at hand, trolled and now announce that you refuse to answer.
My definition of a trolling, is someone who pick up from somebody's else arguements and present it as his own.....he doesn't do his own thinking or at least personalise the arguement to suit with the current discussion.

That, and when people have nothing else to contribute, but starts to attack the other debator on a more flaming note.:)

You don't understand my lengthy posts, despite my very simple English? That's probably you don't really know the Bible, or Christians/world during Bible days on firsthand. Your Greek language vocabulary is almost nil(just like mine).....so it's hard for you to understand where I'm going to, isn't it?

It's okay.....I understand why you now call me a troll. First time I'm being called a troll......there are many who say my posts are little bit different, refreshing, unique.....they don't follow the same old usual arguements.



Then I should ask myself in this thread.....why bother:rolleyes:? They are not going to read that 'women submission' post:mad:....

I love using smilies!

[Unicorn]

Alright, Manfan seems to ignore the effort I put in so I can’t be accused of ‘selective reading. Let's shorten the post.

IN MY OPINION(yes, it's my opinion....you can choose to agree/not agree, Unicorn).....you, Unicorn kinda have a superficial knowledge. The books may be called in a different name, but the contents of the books, a majority of them are similar, they supposedly to be talking of the same people in the past.
Yes I have a superficial knowledge of religion. *lightning flashes and rain falls* Sorry, am I supposed to be surprised?

However you're the one constantly posting that the Bible, Koran and Torah are extremely similar. *shrug* not sure why, do you believe in this concept or want us to believe in it?

My definition of a trolling, is someone who pick up from somebody's else arguements and present it as his own.....he doesn't do his own thinking or at least personalise the arguement to suit with the current discussion. That, and when people have nothing else to contribute, but starts to attack the other debator on a more flaming note.:D:D:D
Really, now? *looks at manfan's posts in this thread* :D :D :D :D

You don't understand my lengthy posts, despite my very simple English? That's probably you don't really know the Bible, or Christians/world during Bible days on firsthand. Your Greek language vocabulary is almost nil(just like mine).....so it's hard for you to understand where I'm going to, isn't it?
I do find it extremely hard to understand you. What exactly are you trying to say in the above paragraph? What is 'christians / world during bible days on firsthand'? What has the Greek language got to do with your future travel plans?

Saah, so you did ask for a clause, but not the whole thing, didn't you? It kinda triggered everything,.....here......then, I blame you, regardless of whatever your good intention is. Cause if I didn't step in(no, I'm not being boastful....I don't take any pride in this), the thread would have turned into 'Women are ill-treated in Christianity' bashs......it might then lead to 'Christianity is wrong, homosexuality is alright.'
I believe that you’re trying to prove something here but it’s not understandable (again).

Then I should ask myself in this thread.....why bother:rolleyes:?
True *nods* why do you bother to post?

[mitzibe]

Wow, shit. I didn't think I would read all that junk in the trunk. O__O

Anyway, hai guys. I'm here because someone directed me here so here I am!! :D

Regarding the submission of wives to husbands:

I didn't mean that husbands should abuse their wives psychologically or mentally. NO, that is wrong. Wives are to be kissed and loved and... you know. Not the brutal way, I mean. NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WIVES. I am totally against that one hundred and two percent.

What I meant to say was...okay let's put it this way. Wives and husbands must love other equally, yes? But husbands are generally the head of the house, yes? Some people do not see that in a patriarchal context, yes?

Ahem ahem.

“For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.” “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.” (Eph 5:21)

Means that both submit to each other...ya? So my berrypie Hiraeth and pumpkin MeiYara, don't have to get so fiery there. Submission in some ways is a form of obedience.

Male and female of the kernel can be obedient and obeyed at the same time. The family maybe is not a patriarchal society as intended by Paul. Paul the disciple, by the way....not McCartney. So if your husband loves you, you repay it with a form of obedience. It is an aswer to his love. Get me? OBEDIENCE OF THE WIVES, NOT INFERIORITY OF WOMEN.

Jee'buz everytime I say something people think I am sexist and standing on women's heads or something, look I love females and I don't care how they look like fat or thin sexy or not because they are created to be loved by men and in return they will submit to men.

See

“Submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord”- for all what we were given is the Face of Christ, and because we obey only Christ - according to what he expressed: “in as much as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” (Matt 25:40)

The wife's devotion to her husband does not end at the level where she obeys her husband only. It extends to the ultimate Holy Being of their House which lives in their body - GOD.

So can we rumba now?

[Shadoblak]

Wow, shit. I didn't think I would read all that junk in the trunk. O__O

Anyway, hai guys. I'm here because someone directed me here so here I am!! :D

Regarding the submission of wives to husbands:

I didn't mean that husbands should abuse their wives psychologically or mentally. NO, that is wrong. Wives are to be kissed and loved and... you know. Not the brutal way, I mean. NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WIVES. I am totally against that one hundred and two percent.

What I meant to say was...okay let's put it this way. Wives and husbands must love other equally, yes? But husbands are generally the head of the house, yes? Some people do not see that in a patriarchal context, yes?

Ahem ahem.

“For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.” “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.” (Eph 5:21)

Means that both submit to each other...ya? So my berrypie Hiraeth and pumpkin MeiYara, don't have to get so fiery there. Submission in some ways is a form of obedience.

Male and female of the kernel can be obedient and obeyed at the same time. The family maybe is not a patriarchal society as intended by Paul. Paul the disciple, by the way....not McCartney. So if your husband loves you, you repay it with a form of obedience. It is an aswer to his love. Get me? OBEDIENCE OF THE WIVES, NOT INFERIORITY OF WOMEN.

Jee'buz everytime I say something people think I am sexist and standing on women's heads or something, look I love females and I don't care how they look like fat or thin sexy or not because they are created to be loved by men and in return they will submit to men.

See

“Submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord”- for all what we were given is the Face of Christ, and because we obey only Christ - according to what he expressed: “in as much as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” (Matt 25:40)

The wife's devotion to her husband does not end at the level where she obeys her husband only. It extends to the ultimate Holy Being of their House which lives in their body - GOD.

So can we rumba now?

Thing about that is, since it isn't God writing, but man writing God's word, there are a few places where things may have been added in...This is why blindly following anything written by men is probably not the best direction to take....Once the words pass from God to man, they are subject to man's alteration..Meaning we may never know the absolute truth...But people are entitled to their opinions so...

[negativzero]

Once again, people don't try to go too off topic, and try not to assault others. Things can get heated up if people in here do that too often.

Thing about that is, since it isn't God writing, but man writing God's word, there are a few places where things may have been added in...This is why blindly following anything written by men is probably not the best direction to take....Once the words pass from God to man, they are subject to man's alteration..Meaning we may never know the absolute truth...But people are entitled to their opinions so...
there again, people taking things out of context.
Although I do agree that the Bible was written by man, so what if it is. The idea is that it is an INSPIRED piece of text, which is written by people who were touched by God and thus follow His ways. IF the Bible was written by man for their own self gain then there would not be such a thing as Christianity, Judaism or Islam. And to prove it, I shall quote this pasage.

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el'zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons." 23 And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. 27 But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house.

[Shadoblak]

Once again, people don't try to go too off topic, and try not to assault others. Things can get heated up if people in here do that too often.


there again, people taking things out of context.
Although I do agree that the Bible was written by man, so what if it is. The idea is that it is an INSPIRED piece of text, which is written by people who were touched by God and thus follow His ways. IF the Bible was written by man for their own self gain then there would not be such a thing as Christianity, Judaism or Islam. And to prove it, I shall quote this passage.

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el'zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons." 23 And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. 27 But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house.

Um........What? o_O

...Anyways....I just said that there are more than likely instances in the bible where man has distorted God's word....Because God is infallible and man isn't....So unless God wrote it himself, there are bound to be instances such as this...Thats what I'm saying...

[Hiraeth]

Well if memory serves, there was a council where a group of church figures chose what to include in the New Testament, was there not?

On the other hand, the Koran is supposed to be the word of God, straight from the prophet's mouth, so to speak, and as far as I'm aware it hasn't been edited since it was first written.

[Unicorn]

Hiraeth, I remember that. The scholars were debating whether to include the text of some other scrolls.

Uhm. so the discussion on the 'wives submit to husbands' bit is done and dusted? I'm pretty alright with the opinions given by the others (thanks Nez and Mitzibe), it makes more sense now.

[emoloz]

Yeah southern Baptist movment was the one who stated that. Really their religion to me doesn't make a lot of sence it confuses me. Like theres debates on how it opresses women and how men have written in and all sorts. And theres the debate its the keep society in line. Man i could prattle on for hours.

I don't think i will ever place myself under as i would say a "cloud" of Religion because is too much choice. You know i say Religion is like a cloud and it just sits there as like a cloud does filling up with water which to me are like ideas of people. Then due to too many idea's it just rains on you and then your left in a state of confusion because theres so many religion and options to choose you can't really choose anything.

And theres even things you actually wouldn't believe is classed as a Religion like araomatheropy. Yes it is classed as a Religion.

Though Religion isn't just about death and the afterlife Religions are like a set guideline to how we run our lives. There not set in stone laws their like a freedom of chocie. The problem is these influence laws and laws influence it. So really who on Earth is in the right? There means of guidance and trying to provide answers.

And thus the cloud start again. It's funny business Religion.

I don't think you can argue about religion of whats right and wrong because to be honest there isn't no right and wrong. Theres too many floating ideas which cannot be proven.

I mean i will say i believe in reincarnation and the afterlife. The reason being for this is because i have had experienced some creepy things in my time relating to them and thus why i believe them.

And if people say to me oh i am this Religion to me it doesn't matter as long as there happy with what they are who cares. I do ask them why though i mean i don't mean to but i guess you just like to know these kinds of things.

[earthforge]

Agreed completely, emoloz. There is a certain parable I remember from the Bible:

A woman is brought in front of Jesus by two police officers, claiming she commited perjury and punished according to the law. Basically, they wanted the Son of God to damn her. Jesus responded by saying "let he who without sin cast the first stone." The police stormed off, angry their set up did not succeed. But God said to the woman before she left "sin no more."

This parable teaches us that religon is not the law. At least this is true with Christianity (ignoring the biblical nuts in today's world.)

Understanding Islam

With Islam, it's more inclined towards restricting activities (it's name means submission.) The only reason Muhammed included Jihad was so the religon and people would not be wiped out because they were passive. Muhammed wanted to create a society that could survive through the union of religon. If it weren't for the division of Sunnis and Shiites, Islam would be still together today. But with Islam you have to remember that Muhammed was literally uniting the desert tribes, which were incredibly savage.

Today Religion

Nowadays, religon is not the same as what it was a long time ago. Nowadays the image that comes up if a person's Christian is a biblical nut ranting about gays. The image with Islam is a suicide bomber. With Jews, it's Isreal and Hezbollah.

These are all common assumptions by the average American idiot. This is why religion is not really talked about often.

I also notice churches nowadays are turning into places with 11-step programs. It is scary to be thrown out of a church just because one of your relatives has to leave the family because she's schitzoid and causing damage to everyone else. It's not about religion anymore, it's about how much your broken. If your broken, then your welcome. But if you just want to be able to come to terms with yourself on moral issues, which is what church is originally for, say good bye. You won't get the chance.

I talk from experience. I am a Lutheran, NOT a Catholic, part of the Protestant movement from the European Church centuries ago..

[Bleu]

Even though i am Catholic, I think that most of the stuff written in the bible is complete bull. It was written a long time after his death, and things just dontadd up. to me it seems like its someone 100 years later telling us about jesus and his disiples when they couldnt have been there. Even though i dont believe alot if not everything in the bible, i do believe in a being that guides us, a supreme overseer. I believe in this through my experiences with spirits/ghosts since i was very little up until now, which made me definetly believe in an afterlife. Jesus, i believe, couldnt walk on water, couldnt heal peoples injuries or do all the miraculous things that is claimed, but i believe that he was just an inspiration to everybody at that time through his words and his journey.

[earthforge]

The Bible truthfully is mainly just a book of parables about Jesus, telling us about certain morals to be respected and things that are not o be respected. I'm truly not sure about Jesus walking on water or such. But I do think his story is real (being pinned to the cross, and his suffering.) I just have faith in that. It makes sense people behave that brutally in his time period, and that's what makes the parables so real.

I really can't say whether Jesus exsisted or not. I have faith in those stories, but I'm also a scientist. Thinking about these things too hard makes my brain hurt.

[Bleu]

me too. i believe in the crusifiction (sp) and the suffering, and i supposethe last supper too.. the rest is all..ehhh... im a scientific person so if modern jesus comes and walks on my pool, then ill be a believer.

[Unicorn]

Picture a scenario:

Person committed a crime, arrested, charged, and the case goes to trial. Lawyer for this person announces that he / she has now taken on the main religion of that country (disclaimer: any religion at all that the majority practices in any country) and has 'become good', therefore the judge should be lenient and as the person as already 'repented'.


I'm an Agnostic, and therefore find the above scenario highly convenient. Using religion as an excuse to plead for a lenient sentence? What mercy had they granted their victims?

What do you guys think of this.... should religion be used in such a way?

[Hiraeth]

Are you thinking Michelle Leslie by any chance? If you are, you know she went back to wearing skimpy clothes the minute she got back into Australia. What was the punishment for the initial crime, before she 'converted'?

[cheez]

I'm an atheists, I'v seen no evidence to support the idea of a super-being ruling over every thing.
I think that religion was created to give people a sense of unity, also to give comfort and understanding in times of crises. Religion just like other forms of unity such as nationality, cultures, and political parties is a tool used for to control and influence the masses, and can be used for either good or bad depending on what the leaders want to accomplish. I don't view religion as either positive or negative but a type of unification created by the social nature of humans, and it is subjective to the will of humans be that positive or negative.
Feel free to agree or disagree this is just what I think.

[Bleu]

In that senerio, i think its the us law or whatever law it is, european is kinda the same, and comparing it to religion.

alot of the laws in common law and american law (which is comon law, basically) are based off of christian beliefs.

I think its fine.

For example, in my american law book there was a case of a family from a middle eastcountry i believe, and they moved to NYC, in NY they used the land in i think..central park..and planted vegtables there and cut down a tree. of course this pissed off ny, and they tried to bring the family to court. the family got off because in their country, all land could be used to cultivate at their needs, and there was no 'personal/private land'

I think there is religious tolerance in many countries that allows people to practice their own religion and customs, which would go against some laws, but they would need a kinda special 'permit' for it. claiming that they belong to so and so religion, and get it signed by a leader of that religion. the religion also has to be significant, not like a new religion you just made up.. for example, bleachism. the religion needs to have a substantial amount of followers.

[Unicorn]

Thanks for the feedback, people.

@ Hiraeth - yes, Michelle Leslie is an example. I think she got arrested for carrying drugs (personal use) at a nightclub. She suddenly announced that she converted to Islam, then when she got out of Indonesia, she went back to non-Islam lifestyle.

@ Bleu - Alot of migrants get away with claiming they are from a minority religion, therefore they should be given special consideration. What I was hoping to get feedback on is if that migrant committed a crime, then suddenly converted to that country's main religion in a seeming attempt to appear repented and to get the judge to show leniency.

[Thantos-Espada]

me and a few guys on my old forum wen't through this.

generaly theirs more evidance to suport athiests...

but the argument swings both ways both holding valid peices of evidance. sutch as. dinosaurs, acording to most strong beleifed chrisitans they never existed, becasue if dinosaurs existed then it confirms evolution not creation.

yet, why does nearly every country in the world beleive in a got, and have so mutch history and releigious info backing them.


I am an athiest or an evolutionist, how ever u call me.

i find the idea of god insane, he was there to protect us, and to save mankind from their sin's instead of killing the sinners, he gives us jesus to come and sort it out. witch makes god sound lazy.

natural disasters... god "made" this planet so how come so many millions of people are dying because opf somthing her did.


6 million jew killed during the second world war, jewdaisum is a relegion so where was their god? why didn't he save them and stop the war with his power?


Life after death, theirs no evidance the humans have a soul... no solid evidance at all, and considering when you die your entire body die's, where does the soul come from? your heart? a large mussel used for pumping blood around your body? or your brain, the place of imagination.


how is it possible to make the earth in 7 days? and if god made the sun and the moon? wqhen did he make the other planets? the other millions of stars and their planets?

if god exists, why are their so many idea of him... greek gods like Zeus, egyptian gods like Anubis, norse gods liek thor, gods like alah and the chinese and japanese gods... if our god is the true god why does every one beleive in somthing different?


if god is real, why doesnt her prove it? and if he makes all love him and follow him - why don't i?


if every thing that happens is to gods will, why does he will people to kill each other, why does he make wars? why does he make me hate him?


during the crusades in asia when britain and france joined together to capture jerusulem?

both armys bleeived in god, both armys had true beleivers and fakers...

yet the combined europian army was slaughterd...


i beleive religion was made millions of years ago by the aztech's to keep the people in line.

"if you murder some one, god will want us to kill you" - then people stop murdering each other.


it was created to keep order and help the leaders stay in control.


and from those million years Relgeion has evolved along with human beings to become the relegion we know today.

[earthforge]

Let me remind you Thantos, of something that is important in the Christian protestant faith:

The passion of the christ. You probably wouldn't understand it, but it was the actions that occured to Jesus before the crucifixtion. He was tortured, mocked, and ultimately humiliated as the son of God. He was humiliated as the son of God, and he took those sins upon himself as the son of God.

So why would Jesus let his son suffer? It was for the realization that his captors had done something wrong. It was an example of inhumane behavior and God has to let humanity learn on it's own. Also, God doesen't control humanity. He knows they're his children, but why should anyone but a hover-parent control their children? It makes no sense.

But that's my faith talking.

At least you aren't a creationist, Thantos. That would set off in me a bomb that is the equivalent of me in the pairing debate thread. :p

[Spartan27]

Personally I consider myself agnostic, I believe there has to be some greater power, because I can't get an answer for why anything exists in general, but I don't believe God has some great plan for me or anyone else. I think those that try to force their beliefs on others are some of the worst people out there, for instance those that try to put the ten commandments in school or in a courthouse, to me I just think you can't tell someone else that something is wrong because you belive in a different set of beliefs.

[WatanukiXXX]

Thanks for the feedback, people.

@ Hiraeth - yes, Michelle Leslie is an example. I think she got arrested for carrying drugs (personal use) at a nightclub. She suddenly announced that she converted to Islam, then when she got out of Indonesia, she went back to non-Islam lifestyle.


I would be annoyed if the Indonesian justice system gave her preferential treatment just because she converted to Islam. And if they did then they are incredibly stupid for doing so. Oh wait most of these officials are rather dense anyway :o

[emoloz]

I don't think people should be judged by a religious text because like i said in previous posts its not really the sort of "guidebook" that holds people together. The more I have studied about religion this year the more I think of it just as a guide to help people along in life rather than it being from God. Just to keep people happy, give them a goal in life and to oppress people.

If such a God did exist I would class him as some charismatic leader who preached himself as God and did good or bad things in order to create some religious ideas. Most religions I think were just created by man because they were bored and wanted to see if they could influence people from a meer text. The some who have prophets and whatever to me were just made up.

However then I think again and some of religion and its ideology does make sense in a way. I don't know if that is due to some personal experiences I have had or I am having to believe it.

So then again I believe religion again is just like a cloud full with ideas again just raining and bombarding us with new ideas.

Another thing which has brought to my attention about Cults being a bag of garbage was today 12:00pm USA time the world was meant to end. So now i look at my clock and oh all of the USA has passed 12:00pm. I wonder if the cult leader will have another fit and go "Oh God's changed his mind again". Previously he said that God on some other random date would end the world, it failed then he pretended to have a like a fit gaining a message from God telling him when the world would end and it was changed. Cults amuse me. I shall have to find out the name of the cult.

To be honest I think were all just going to live in utter confusion all our lives about Religion because were in this kind of society now where we question it as nothing gives us at all a straight answer to everything. At least I don't think we do. I think it should be on offer to us no doubt about that because some people need it for psychological reason and what not.

Wow why can't my religion essays be like this >.<

[Spartan27]

One of the things that I just can't understand about some religions is the insistence that if you don't proscribe a very set standard of beliefs and actions than you are going to hell, for instance for some Christians a person such as Ghandi would be going to hell because he was Hindu and did not take Jesus as his savior, too me this seems like one of the f'ed up ideas ever, I don't want to mock another religion, but to me if you think God judges our actions on such a scale than I can't belive that God is a merciful God. Another example is someone who is Gay, a person could be the most giving and kind person in the world but if he or she is Gay some people belive its a stright shot to hell, but if a mass murderer accepts Jesus than all is forgiven, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

God wants us all to lead a happy life, he doesn't want us to be in fear of his wrath, he doesn't want us thinking everyday if we are going to hell or not. Religion as was said above is a guide book on how to live a rich and good life. Personally since I don't proscribe to a specific religion I try to take instructions from assortment of religions, because to me they mostly all say the same thing, at least the ones that are moderate.

[Thantos-Espada]

still i beleive jesus to be a man that empowerd people.

i do not beleive he used "miricals", i beleive he was just clever, and knew how to lead people, so with himn leading towards a religion people followed.


the feeding of the 5000? 2 loafs of bread was it? i hate to say it, but no power on earth or in heven could make that possible...

unless 4996 people didnt eat anything and just passed it on.


but i like the way religion is set about for people to follow to keep them in good behavior.

But remember lots of "things" have been done in the name of god.

and not all of them are good. = 9/11

[earthforge]

Who know, Thantos-san?

Jesus could have been using technology beyond that time. To young civilizations, any technology is viewed as magic. I suggest you watch the Star Trek episode "Who Watches the Watchers?" (it's a reeally good one, trust me.)

But I stand by my faith.

[beautiful_death]

Has anyone ever noticed that the Catholic faith is very strong in "third world" countries? Also, there is a history of brutal colonization and occupation behind that influence.

Examples: Philippines, Mexico, and most of South America.

[emoloz]

It's good if you stick to your faith as long as YOU ARE HAPPY with your faith. I don't like it when people are fo