Ichigo and his killer instinct (or lack thereof)

[Nocturne]

Just wondering if you guys think it's necessary for Ichigo to have a kill under his belt for his character to grow in power. And by kill I mean a major character/villain, not a bunch of redshirt hollows. Doldonie had mentioned that Ichigo has to let go of his chocolate and become a devil to face the other devils within HM. Is that what Ichigo really has to do in order for him to win against Grimmjow, embrace his dark side and go for the kill? Is it possible for Ichigo to have a killer instinct without having to have killed? He can defeat an enemy because he has the drive, but in the end, the result doesn't have to be death for the opponent. Also, will his first kill affect his character positively or negatively? Will this mean that the Shirosaki side of him is taking over? Or does it have to mean that the Shirosaki side of Ichigo is taking over?

[Sergelia]

+rep for you, for asking that question. Ed from FMA became my favorite character, with no contest, after killing Greed. SO, if executed well, it's my opinion that having the main character (especially if he's young and bent on protecting people, like Ichigo is) have his first kill can be a MAJOR character development. Then again, it might not, depending on how it's done. Some shows do it for fanservice, I think.

But Dordonie became my hero after that speech. His words, I imagine, will have a vast impact on Ichigo in the end. So far it seems he hasn't got it in him - hence his, failed, fight with Ulquiorra (*fangirlattacks*) and his so far rather carefree performance in the fight with Grimmjow (that's not to say he's fighting bad, of course - I just don't think he's not acting as seriously as he could).

No, I don't think it would mean Shirosaki is taking over. I'd like it to be *Ichigo* who finally proves he's taking the fight against Aizen seriously, not his super-bad-and-insane hollow side. It would feel really cheap if Kubo went for the "Ichigo is indeed a good, pure, merciful boy, and if he kills his enemies it's because he couldn't help it, haha!" approach. It would be a waste of a good character, and I'm praying for Ichigo to finally accept Dordonie's words and come at his enemies with the intent to kill. It's all great that he's having fun fighting, but... there will be a war. If he's not ready to kill by then (again, kill, as in kill thinking beings) it will... well, suck. Yeah.

But as for winning against Grimmjow? I doubt it. Ichigo needs to grow more, learn more, and become more powerful first. This whole arc dealt with what he's supposed to do but isn't doing - and if anything, Grimm will be killed by someone else as a punishment for him breaking orders, taking Orihime out of the room, and trapping Ulquiorra. Ichigo will be turned into a stand-by watcher.

Now that I think of it, out of all main characters we only saw Rukia kill a thinking, reasonable being. >__> And she was trained to be a fighter for decades.

[Rain]

I don't think he needs to kill anyone. I see his character as the type to try to win, and once the fight is over he doesn't want his enemy to die but should they die in the fight then so be it.

He doesn't worry about his enemy's safety during a fight, he fights with the intent to kill/win so I doubt his killing of anyone would cause any character development or an increase in strength.

[Velius]

Part of me agrees with Rain, it's not like he is holding back or anything. He is giving it all he has, that would be trying to kill his opponent, he just always comes up short for various reason. You could chalk that up to Kubo not wanting to kill off any major characters or wanting to keep Ichigo's hands 'clean'.

Either way, I think a kill could change him, but if anything it would be for the better. Does he need this change? I don't think he does, he has been doing 'fine' so far. Any short comings in fights won't be because he hasn't killed a major character. That kind of thinking doesn't make sense.

[debbiechan]

Good question. It's already been emphasized in the manga that Ichigo needs to lose his chocolate; if that's not a plot development predictor, I don't know what is. Also, it's only tradition for a shounen hero's character to develop by his going two steps back and then a giant leap forwards.

My real problem with Ichigo killing is that that's freaking serious. Kubo has taught us to read the manga in a certain way; for something koo-koo like the Karakura teacher being the true mastermind behind Aizen would go against what the story asks. For Ichigo to kill--that would be too dark, even for the Hueco Mundo arc, and so against Ichigo's nature (he's made friends of his enemies so far). Yet this point we know:

1) Ichigo doesn't have the power to defeat his enemies.
2) Ichigo has a murderous violent entity inside himself
3) It's been emphasized that Ichigo needs to lose his chocolate.
4) The inherent message from Ichigo's winning would be "going through Hell for a heavenly cause" or the "end justifies the means."
5) All the above point to Ichigo killing Grimmjow. Ichigo has a vendeta of sorts and honor killings are not unheard of in shounen (I'm thinking Peacemaker Kurogani). Grimmjow led the raid that hurt his friends. Even the Shinigami were torn up, not to mention that Chad was a fingernail's tip from death and Rukia got a hole in her stomach. Orihime was roughly handled by GJ.


But are all these reasons enough to sully the innocent, pure good guy image of Ichigo that readers have come to know and love? I think not.


Against the killing of Grimmjow, we have:

1) Kubo does not kill developed characters like Grimmjow.
2) Kubo doesn't kill, period.
3) Shounen good guys don't kill, and Ichigo has so far been turning opponents into friends (from Ishida to Byakya)

Ichigo may appear to need to kill, but he won't. Kubo breaks with some formula traditions but not this one. What sort of lesson would it be for Japanese boys that in order to overcome bad things, one has to do bad things?


Kubo can be dark--he can lead us down dark hallways but we always emerge in truth and light. I think that Ichigo can be led to believe Grimmjow is dead only to have Grimmjow miraculously arise all healed up after Ichigo leaves the scene. That way we get character development, some real emo from Ichigo, and he hasn't technically killed anyone.

[ezxx]

He doesn't need to do anything Urahra didn't already teach him

If I'm attacking, I won't miss.
If I'm dodging, I won't be hit.
If i'm protecting, I wont let that person die.

etc. something along those lines. He doesn't need to become a demon. He just needs to do what he did against Renji and Urahra.

[Sarada]

I also partly agree.

It's true that Ichigo lacks 'killing intent', and I really wonder, if you are faced with a deadly oponent who wants to kill you, how you would fight. Where would you aim? Would something inside of you stop you from aiming for the head or the heart? Some sort of fear of killing another person, or perhaps only the fear for the consequences. Not going for vital points will be in your disadvantage, and will make you miss the deciding strike. In that way, Ichigo would need to overcome this to deliver a killing blow ie, lose the chocolate.

On the other hand, if you'd killed someone, how would that make you feel? People don't always drop and die in 1 second, it can take minutes for them to die, what would that do to Ichigo (or any other person), if he saw a person die like that. It would mean a dramatic change in his character. And not necessarily in the good direction. Judging from how he reacted when Rukia told him Hollows were humans too, he really needed a good reason to be able to give the killing blow. But it's not some nameless beast he's got to kill now, it's a human, not hidden behind a mask, who he knows the name of, who he's seen and fought multiple times.

[Sergelia]

Well. Death in Bleach is a god-damn serious thing, I agree, since practically no one actually DIES - (bear with me, I'm trying to keep my happy thoughts for Rukia T__T) and thats part of the reason why I think, at some point, Ichigo will need to... well, experience a bit of darkness and self-conflict himself. I'm not talking about inner hollows here. He has a personality, you see, and I want that CHARACTER to come at conflict with itself, not only his inner-but-separate entities. >__>

So, neh. I don't think he should aim for a bloodshed here or anything - but a war is a war. At some point, Ichigo will have to show just how serious his will to protect is. He's shown many times that he places the lives of those he cares about - his family, friends and Rukia - above his own; so would he be ready to take another's life to protect theirs? Think. As early as chapter 5, Ichigo was simply bewildered at the thought that Hollows he went left-and-right killing were sometimes people, normal human beings like he was. THAT Ichigo would NOT be at ease with killing anyone, methinks. So that's why I think he will have to - everything has been leading towards that point. Ichigo has been doing just fine so far, I agree, but more serious enemies are coming.

He said to Ulquiorra "You're the top of Espada, right, so if I defeat you the rest is just clean-up". I find Ulquiorra's response rather telling - he shows Ichigo his number and...

http://ju-ni.net/images/rsgallery/display/bleach-ch271-19.png.jpg

That is the sad truth. Ichigo is doing his best. His powers are great. But he needs to aim higher, and honestly if he's not ready to take a life, if he's not ready to "go all out" no matter the consequences - how can he expect to effectively protect anyone, against Aizen who would not hold back so easily?

What am I talking about... >.< They have Orihime - death is no big deal. xD

EDIT: Didn't see Sarada's post. Well.

If I killed someone, I would feel... words cannot express it. Horrible.

But I'm not a warrior, am I? I'm not a fighter. I don't go around wielding a huge Zanpaktou and battling Hollows.

In my eyes, when you start calling yourself a fighter, you cannot exactly go back and say "Oh, wait, I want to fight but I don't want to hurt anyone 1". The moment he accepted to be a Shinigami, the moment he claimed his sword, he became killer-material. *nods*

[Rain]

I don't think it's killer instinct that Ichigo needs, I feel he has that, he goes all out against his enemies.

What he doesn't have is coldheartedness and I don't think he really needs this. When he sees anyone suffering (friend or foe) he can't leave them like that, and isn't this what Doldorni (or however you spell his name) means with his "deja chocolate aqui" line?

Ichigo doesn't need to kill his enemies, just to beat and conquer them.

[Shinrin]

Wouldn't mind it getting darker, but i don't think it'll be the best time right now though.

Yes Kubo havn't killed that many characters since may of the storyline, but there's been quite alot of death at the Hollows area and Center 46 aswell as in Flashbacks.

I don't think you should be that sure that Kubo won't make the serie darker, In ZP Gamma Killed quite alot of people without hestitation.

In Ultra unholy .... Machine the main character kills alot aswell
In bad shield i think the main villain was shot aswell.
THough Rune Master Urara didn't seem as violent though.


Still none of those had the popularity of Bleach...

[Sergelia]

But, you have to consider this... Bleach has really, really weird death-issues. For example, it wouldn't be such a tragedy if Orihime or Chad died, would it? We'd know they'd most probably just go to Soul Society. IF, however, Rukia or Ichigo or Renji - whoever - died... supposedly, dead Shinigami reincarnate in the human world, but I don't think this is always the case.

Besides, if Orihime's ressurecting powers aren't the biggest GodMode we have seen in Bleach so far, then knock me dead. Kubo is toying with death in this story, people.


@Rain - might be so... However, Ichigo becoming cold hearted is something I wouldn't exactly like to see. He needs to toughen up, that's a given, but coldheartedness and Ichigo doesn't go in the same sentence. ^__^

Oh, btw;

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/004/Bleach-01-04-03.png

He's not very killing-oriented, nope. xD

[Shinrin]

Yet again remember his time vs Shreiker or vs Renji the first time.

Mayby he wern't as killing-oriented against Renji but something did happen to his personallity during that fight.

Against Shreiker he actually could be called Cruel.(Though he was a hollow)


(Ichigo having cut his Zanpakuto halfway through Shreikers leg)
"Now you can't use your bombs nor run away...
Feels bad dosn't it?!
That's excatly how your victims felt
(Shreiker cut's of his own leg and takes to the air)
Fears a terrible thing, makes you cut of your own leg just to escape it.
Now remember that fear and dissapear"(cuts through Shreikers head)

[Sergelia]

'tis why I am hoping he will make the final step and become... a demon. <3

I do believe he has it in him. And I think that's where Kubo is going, Ichigo's growth from a crybaby he was before his mother's death, over a troublesome delinquent and a soft-hearted Shinigami, to, finally, a main character worth respecting. Ichigo was never the one to go all "high-morals" on us. He made it clear; he wants to protect. Fine. But while he's a "gentle, kind person" (Nell, I love you), he's still a tough-guy (even if it might just be a shell) who enjoys fighting, a true shounen hero, and someone who wouldn't go easy on his enemies like that. I think he's very much like his dad in that respect. Isshin Kurosaki's "fight" (haha) against Grand Fisher showed it - he doesn't seem like a person who went around killing, but against someone who killed his beloved wife, he said he would show no mercy.

Meh, I'm tired, going to bed. I'm sorry if this post made no sense, I will make sure to deny ever having written this when I wake up. xD

[debbiechan]

In ZP Gamma Killed quite alot of people without hestitation.

In Ultra unholy .... Machine the main character kills alot aswell
In bad shield i think the main villain was shot aswell.
THough Rune Master Urara didn't seem as violent though.
...

That's true but Zombie Powder is a different story--killing is part of the characters. Saying that Kubo may kill in Bleach because he killed in Zombie Powder is like saying Shakespeare might kill in Two Gentlemen From Verona because there were murdering characters in MacBeth.

This HM arc is getting real dark--the Rukia/Arroniro fight skirted tragedy. I wouldn't be surprised if Kubo doesn't kill off a major or well-liked character (not Gin, not Gin, please not Gin) but I don't think Ichigo will do the killing.

[Riekie]

I can't agree more with what Debbiechan is saying..It does not necessarily have to happen if the author has killed before in previous works..but I must say that it is a huge part that has to happen.

look at Trigun..Vash killed Legato, not because he wanted to but because he had to..and very unfortunately, all according to Legato's plan.

see FMA and know that in the anime version Ed kills Greed. Yet again..not because he wanted to, but there was no other way..and perhaps Greed had planned it as well.

All I am saying is that Ichigo will kill someone sooner or later..whether it's Grimmjow (I think this will be Ichigo's first kill) or perhaps Aizen later on..it's bound to happen and will stir up alot of things in Bleach Universe..for the worse and ultimately also for the good of the Ichigo character.

[brightredglow]

Just wondering if you guys think it's necessary for Ichigo to have a kill under his belt for his character to grow in power. And by kill I mean a major character/villain, not a bunch of redshirt hollows. Doldonie had mentioned that Ichigo has to let go of his chocolate and become a devil to face the other devils within HM. Is that what Ichigo really has to do in order for him to win against Grimmjow, embrace his dark side and go for the kill? Is it possible for Ichigo to have a killer instinct without having to have killed? He can defeat an enemy because he has the drive, but in the end, the result doesn't have to be death for the opponent. Also, will his first kill affect his character positively or negatively? Will this mean that the Shirosaki side of him is taking over? Or does it have to mean that the Shirosaki side of Ichigo is taking over?

Interesting topic in that it is open to differing interpretations.

Does Ichigo really need to kill in order to grow in power? If Bleach were a manga along the same lines as Fullmetal Alchemist (or to a lesser extent, Naruto), I'd say, "yes" because in FMA, death has a value assigned to it. When people die in FMA, they die and the consequences of bringing one back from death are huge (especially when such a deed was the catalyst to the start of the entire story). So if it is between himself (or protecting someone he cares about) or banking on the mercy of the opponent, Ed of FMA will kill and he doesn't spend an overly long time legalizing his reasons for doing it. It is about survival and then move on.

But Bleach isn't like FMA or Claymore or Berserk or even Naruto. Death doesn't seem to have much of a value in Bleach so the threat of it is strangely absent especially with Orihime's powers emerging. There are deaths that have been referred to, but they are in the past and there has been no death that happened in present timeline and certainly none that affects the main group of characters.

In the absence of death's shadow, there is so much wiggle room for Ichigo (and friends) to contemplate fighting without dealing a killing blow. The tension in Bleach isn't so much about who is going to die, but how close will Ichigo get to that point before he tumbles over into, say, Shirosaki's domain.

As for myself, I'd like to see Ichigo put into a situation where there is no wiggle room to take the win while giving mercy and he has to make the decision to either kill or be killed (or see someone he is protecting killed) because those who take "protector" roles generally face that decision. For example, even if Ichigo shows mercy to Grimmjow (assuming that it goes in that direction) and walks away from GJ, is the threat of GJ taken away or is it left for another day? If it is left for another day, then Ichigo has only protected his friends for the time between the end of one fight and the start of another. That's not true protection. That's just buying time.

But again, Bleach does not read as the type of manga that deals with that kind of dilemma.

So while for other manga, I'd say, "yeah, in order to get to the next level, he (or she) needs to find his/her killer instinct," for Bleach and Ichigo in particular, it is my opinion that Kubo will get Ichigo close to the edge and maybe even tease at sending him over, but in the end, he'll pull him back.

Then again, I could be wrong and Kubo does force Ichigo's hand and perhaps it won't be for a powerup but for good old fashioned character development. :)

[BigBadBuu]

Ichigo having/not having "killing intent" is the same issue that Urahara brought up way back when. It's actually the same issue that stopped Ichigo from hearing Zangetsu's name in the first place.

"Killing intent" when fighting is not the same as "murderous intention".

Actually, that's it.

"Killing Intent" is attacking/fighting to the best of your ability according to the openings/opportunity given to you by the opponent-- irrespective of the ultimate harm caused to him/her. Think, any of the captain-class Shinigami we've met thus far. Most are far from being murderers-- even Kenpachi.

The opposite of "killing intent" is what Urahara first described back in Ichigo's initial training-- a blade being dulled by fear, doubt, and uncertainty.

Anyone who's trained martial arts (or has gotten into a fight or two) knows that the easiest way to assure getting hurt, is to worry about hurting your opponent during the fight.

Unfortunately, this is something some only learn after getting KTFO dirtily themselves. For others, it takes something far more traumatic...

Ichigo definitely falls into this second category of person, and won't "sober up" until something utterly Berserk-esque happens to himself + his friends/family/town.

-Buu

[AnimeGirlPan]

Well it depends really...I think if Ichigo really does have a killer instinct and goes for the kill..it could change the way he protects living things...but anyways..Ichigo is somebody who wants to protect the ones he cares about so...even if he had to kill somebody for the sake of saving somebody else..it could make him feel bad cause of doing something he is not use of doing..and if Ichigo does slip up..Hollow Ichigo could take over again..and Overall..it just depends really.

[silhouette]

Ichigo had the seek-battle/dominant instinct from the very beginning. We saw Ichigo before he became a shinigami, he beat up the bullies in his school into pulp , he ruined the faces of the gang that was disturbing the little girl's spirit, and he always had a mean look on his face.... heck his first reaction when Rukia sneaked into his room -in the beginning of bleach- was to immediately kick her in the butt and this is who the real Ichigo is.
Unfortunately, having shinigami powers made him too cautious...it made him look for a reason to swing his sword against enemies and little by little he lost his fighting spirit and became too soft. So yes it's important that Ichigo kills GJ or other espadas because it's the only way that will bring the old Ichigo back...a man who crushes those who face him without having to actually talk himself into doing so.

[Primera Espada]

Having shinigami powers put peoples LIVES (or afterlives, if you will) in his hands. That's the main change.

It didn't make him too cautious, it made him more dangerous. That power is something Ichigo never wants to use willy nilly.

I think killing off Grimmjow now would be a change of character. If he didn't kill off Doldoni even though he attacked nell, AND attacked Ichigo AFTER being healed, and told him he would keep attacking him regardless....

why would he suddenly kill Grimmjow, who honestly... is the only reason Ichigo's not DEAD.

[silhouette]

wouldn't you say that killing espadas/soul suckers/murderous enemies is part of his job too? isn't this a part of saving peoples' lives?
The doubt that Zangetsu asked Ichigo to get rid of was his caution, the instinct that subdued shirosaki was his naturally dominant kick-your enemy's-ass personality that he showed before becoming a shinigami (shirosaki: "so you still have some left in you") and the reason that made Ichigo stay behind and fight GJ wasn't because of shirosaki influence or Dorry's words, it was Ichigo finally remembering who he really is but only killing GJ will ensure he stays true to himself.

[Sergelia]

Oh I don't think killing someone is a *requirement*. Ichigo's fighting his best, and in that regard we all agree - he could kill, the way he's going about it. His goal isn't for the opponent not to be harmed (LOL! What kind of an idiot would you have to be to do that? He has a sword, a fairly sharp one at that - and the way he's handling it I doubt he really cares if his enemy gets a papercut). Yet, so far, he hasn't killed. Hollows not being counted, of course.

So, Ichigo might be giving his all, but despite of this he hasn't killed yet. That's what I'm talking about here. He can fight like he means it, but so far we weren't able to see how he'd react if he killed someone for real. What I want to say is, despite his fighting he hasn't faced the consequences yet. It'll be extraordinary interesting, IMO, to see his reaction to having taken a life.

I'm wondering how that will affect his character AND his fighting. And that's where Kubo's role as a storyteller comes in - and it will definitely add some depth to the story, a sense of finality. Orihime's powers need to have some boundaries, after all... I know she's almost a goddess or something, but everyone should pay a price for playing with matters of life and death, no? So I don't think she'll actually spend the rest of the story running around, reviving people and remaining unscratched. It would be so... lame. Death is SERIUZ BIZNISS and all that jazz.

Someone once said 'Whenever we kill someone, we kill a part of our soul with him'. I think Kubo will put that to use in Bleach. Ichigo won't become a cold-blooded murderer, but he needs to face possible consequences of what he's doing.

[Primera Espada]

how can we say that death is serious business in bleach?

Chapter one revealed that Shinigami have dominion over life and death.

Were we all seriously thinking that somehow... death would be this big scary thing in bleach?

Kinda silly when we think back to the roots.

[Sergelia]

Like I said in my previous post (the one before, peeps, not the one on this page), "Kubo is toying with death". I understand full well death means leprechaun's nuts in Bleach. Nonetheless I think Orihime's powers is, well, taking it too far. TOO FAR.

How can he ever expect us to fret over what happens in the story if we know Hime-baby can just run over and fetch them from the depths of Hell?

It makes no sense. *wails*

So, being my good old cheery self, I'd rather believe reviving has a cost. Something we haven't seen yet, something like... acquiring Shinigami Eyes in Death Note; shortening the lifespan, soul-ruining, something.

[Aradon]

So, being my good old cheery self, I'd rather believe reviving has a cost. Something we haven't seen yet, something like... acquiring Shinigami Eyes in Death Note; shortening the lifespan, soul-ruining, something.

The cost is a loss of your vocabulary. Loot at Orihime : she just can say "Kurosaki-kun". :nuts
(just kidding, she's my favorite female character)


Seriously, I can understand that Ichigo doesn't (want to) kill Shinigami in the SS arc but here, by killing a hollow with a zanpakuto, he just brings his soul back to Soul Society, doesn't he ?

Edit : So he doesn't need killer instinct for that.

[Sergelia]

Mm. You are right (Orihime rocks, btw, but currently I'm a bit... annoyed with her for not going to heal Rukia and Chad. Ahwell, that's Kubo for you) - he just "cleanses" their souls and sends them to SS (or to Hell if they were bad, bad, bad people). However Hollows are one thing, thinking, talking beings with personality are wholly another. Shinigami on one hand and Arrancar on the other are both "kinds" of dead people. Arrancar are hollows, yes, but they can think and talk and they are persons, albeit evil ones. So killing them, I imagine, would be very alike to killing a human being.

[Agmaster]

Rukia's dead. She's done enough. Let the poor girl rest. Forever.

[Sergelia]

Rukia's dead. She's done enough. Let the poor girl rest. Forever.

^ Now that's an example of someone who would, say, make me kill him without thinking twice. :nuts

No, seriously now, under the (FAKE :yell) condition that Rukia is dead, Orihime will revive her. Or Ichigo will forever be lost in pits of Uber-E.M.O. and such.

Choose. Rukia up-and-running, or the main hero spending the rest of manga sitting in a dark corner crying softly - which one is better?

[BigBadBuu]

The cost is a loss of your vocabulary. Loot at Orihime : she just can say "Kurosaki-kun". :nuts


:lmao

Seriously... :lmao

About the (non) killing of hollows, though...

In the last chapter, KT said that the "past selves" of the hollows who make up a menos are forever lost in the menos-isation process.

Wouldn't that, then, imply that there are no more souls to cleanse with dealing with a menos?

Soo... Killing a menos would be, in fact, "killing" in the strictest sense of the word, no?

...just something to think about.

-Buu

[Sergelia]

Mm. She was always the one to "Kurosaki-kun" around the place. >__> if it was the cost, well, she was paying it long time before she got her powers. >__>

NAH.

You have a good point there BigBadBuu - however I feel we're straying a bit too much from the topic here.... might just be me tho'.

[BigBadBuu]

...
You have a good point there BigBadBuu - however I feel we're straying a bit too much from the topic here.... might just be me tho'.

Hey, that's MY line!

*achem!*

Back on topic guys...

[Nocturne]

Soo... Killing a menos would be, in fact, "killing" in the strictest sense of the word, no?
But Menos are still faceless ones, their deaths won't hold meaning to any who kill them. I know, strange to think of differences in kills. XD

So many great answers! Thanks for sharing, people! Anyway, I'll say something, but my post might end up being all over the place. :o I had brought up the question about his killer instinct because it seems to be something that comes up every so often with regard to Ichigo. What gets me is that during his last fight with Shirosaki, Kenpachi appeared in his subconcious and said that he and Ichigo are alike. So is Ichigo trying to figure out if he is like Kenpachi, or like his hollow?

'tis why I am hoping he will make the final step and become... a demon. <3
Is it necessary for Ichigo to become a demon though? I know Doldonie had told him that to be like the Espada is the only way he can defeat them. But can Ichigo retain who he is without having to become like them? In a way, becoming like the Espada is letting his hollow side take over. I don't really see that happening right now. Least not yet. What's been interesting about the previous chapters is that even though we've seen shades of Shirosaki-like attitude from Ichigo, he still hasn't lost himself completely. In a way, aside from Ichigo and Grimmjow being on par in power, it can be said their attitude (thirst to fight) are the same at some points during their fight. What's been different is that Ichigo is still able to switch off his modes from fighting to protecting and back again. If, however, there were no other distractions (i.e. people to protect), would he just be fighting for the sake of fighting to become more powerful?

On another note, when he began this fight, he told Grimm straight up that he's not going to kill him. Grimm, on the other hand, is in this fight to basically kill Ichigo. Is that what Doldonie wants Ichigo to be, to fight with the intent to kill? And (touching on what Buu said) is that considered murderous intent then for an Espada, or just an acceptance that when you fight, your opponent's death should be the end result. To tie in with the first paragraph, if Ichigo does kill someone, will he become more like the demon, or will that be incumbent on how he reacts to his first kill? I'd rather Ichigo be the exception to Doldonie's suggestion. That he doesn't have to become like a devil to defeat the Espada.

I still don't think Ichigo will be able to kill Grimmjow. I don't see it in his character to do so. I can see him defeat Grimmjow, but not go for the kill. I'm not sure he learned the lesson from Doldonie to not show mercy. But at the same time, is Ichigo going with the mindset to just defeat Grimmjow enough? Should he go in with the mindset to kill Grimmjow and all other Espada instead? LOL, watch this weeks chapter have Ichigo actually kill Grimmjow. XD

[ezxx]

why should he listen to advice from a hollow? Why should he listen to advice from a psychopath like Kenpachi who loves the idea of killing or being killed? It makes no logical sense for Ichigo to become like that. The only thing Ichigo needs to protect what's important to him, and if that requires killing, he does it. But like i've said before, all he needs is the resolve taught to him by Urahra, just not give into his fear, which always hold him back. The only thing he needs to shed himself of is fear.

[Amon]

why should he listen to advice from a hollow? Why should he listen to advice from a psychopath like Kenpachi who loves the idea of killing or being killed? It makes no logical sense for Ichigo to become like that. The only thing Ichigo needs to protect what's important to him, and if that requires killing, he does it. But like i've said before, all he needs is the resolve taught to him by Urahra, just not give into his fear, which always hold him back. The only thing he needs to shed himself of is fear.

From what i understand is that "Kempachi" from the Ichigo/InnerHollow fight made Ichigo question his purpose for fighting. It went from fighting to protect to fighting to get stronger. Seeking out strong enemies and defeating (or killing) them and getting stronger.

Well my thoughts are is that we may soon see the conflict in character. Ichigo is coming to crossroads where he may loose his sight of his original purpose and become antihero or may regain sight of that purpose and continue on "righteous" path. Its not black and white either. He may kill significant character but not loose sight of the purpose or may not kill but still lose sight of it.

Im thinking Joseph Campbell and the Hero's Journey, which i think is part of any decent story. Whether writer have read it or not.

Ok i think this all makes some sence. I suck incredibly when it comes to writing. So if anything doesn't make sense, please ask to clarify.

[Sergelia]

Is it necessary for Ichigo to become a demon though? I know Doldonie had told him that to be like the Espada is the only way he can defeat them. But can Ichigo retain who he is without having to become like them?

That's the main question. Like I said before, I'd want Ichigo to kill his enemy at some point only, and ONLY if it's really him doing it - we all know Shirosaki is a psycho hollow, him killing someone would virtually bear no meaning. So, no, I don't see Ichigo killing someone as "stepping into the dark side". He might view it that way, though, and become depressed and conflicted about it - that's how I see it anyway - but he would eventually realize that he's either fighting or he's not.

Now. You're right, that idea about Kenpachi hasn't occurred to me yet - the first sign of conflict was definitely Shirosaki even existing, but Ichigo subconsciously wondering if he's like Kenpachi took it one step forward. You see, Shirosaki is a part of Ichigo, but for some reason I always view him as a separate entity, Ichigo's "dark side" so to speak, something that's not the REAL Ichigo we saw for the last 284 chapters. Are we making a mistake? Is Shirosaki more a part of him than one enemy more to defeat?

Dunno. This is all very complex. In my eyes this makes for one of the most interesting debates about Ichigo and Bleach overall; Ichigo's supposed 'intent to kill' has so far been mentioned so. many. times it's not even funny anymore. If it's a given he has acquired it, why are so many people (Urahara, Shirosaki, Kenpachi, Dordonie) still talking about it? :headscratch

Ezxx, I see where you're coming from, but I don't completely agree. It's not only about "listening to someone's advice", it's about the way he goes about his quest-for-power. Since the beginning chapters, Ichigo sought for a "blade" so he could protect. In my mind this tells a lot. We have protectors like Orihime - people who shield - and protectors like, say, some of the Shinigami - people who fight. You have mere protection on one hand and protective violence on the other. And Ichigo has always, ALWAYS, strived for the latter. *nods* Now, this might not mean he has to inevitably kill someone, of course.
Meh I'll just let Kubo do his job - I've full faith in his abilities as a mangaka. :D

[Kurouno]

I think the incredibly long time its taken Ichigo to forge his resolve is a major detriment to the plot. Not because he hasn't killed (or "purified") anyone, but because half of his fights that are decided because he simply doesn't have his resolve together. Once was enough when it finally cut down Renji. Apparently he didn't learn his lesson by the time he fought his inner hollow, and I figured he'd finally got it into his head by the time he began training with the Vaizard and told Inoue that he would definitely win. Once again, not quite in his head, so we get treated to it again during the final Grimmjow fight. So when exactly is enough going to be enough? Watching him get into a fight and suddenly deciding "Okay, I'm going to win now" is getting old and/or lame.

He doesn't really have to kill anyone. Ishida's destroyed people's source of spiritual power. Sure, he can try saving Grimmjow so he can either join him soon, or become a bigger annoyance later. But at least have your crap together sooner.

Granted, I'm probably biased because I hated the way the 3rd Grimmjow fight was executed (well, I've hated everything concerning Ichigo after his revival by Orihime), and his battle ability was probably hindered by the thought that Orihime would think of him as a monster because of his Hollow form, but geez, give us a break here...