Is There A Level Beyond Bankai?

[jofosho999]

I don't know if I should have even opened this thread, but this is only because of all the conversation going on in the chapter thread.

SO the argument is that FGT Ichigo was not using his bankai, he became something further than that. The question is if that's true or not, and if there's any proof.

We have had secondary forms for example..Ulquiorra's second form for instance. All of Aizen's transformations. I liken Ichigo's final form to a final form attack similar to Ishida. Not exactly like bankai, but more powerful and more risky in that he loses all his powers.

What do you guys think?

[Chimera Cord]

No, there isn't.

FGT is the power of Ichigo's zanpakuto.

Segunda Etapa is just an Arrancar's Hollow form, but without the bone armor that usually protects their psyche from the outside world.

Aizen's chrysalis form was a bastardized version of Hollowification.

[namc]

There is only small information concerning captains, and the molding of ones zan. Going off Isshin's comment to grandfisher, captain level fighters are all consciously molding their zan to themself on some level even if its only blade size. All of the royal guard having inegrated zan's as apparent so far is an indication to me that a "pure synchronization" is possible and a feasable "step beyond" bankai, though we have little info on this so far.

[Andygoesrawr]

We really don't know. It's annoying to see so many people saying "no, Final Getsuga Tenshou is definitely a Bankai technique" and "yes, Final Getsuga Tenshou is definitely beyond Bankai" because we do not know. Discussion is healthy, but just completely saying that everybody else is wrong when there is nothing that absolutely says either way is silly.

However, I've got to say that the evidence towards it being beyond Bankai is substantial. First of all, Bankai cannot affect the body of the wielder. They just don't do that. There is not a single Bankai in existence (read: that we've seen) which has the ability to modify its user's body. Yama's Bankai shrouded his body in fire, and it appeared to come from his body because his Reiatsu took the appearance of flame. This was explained by Haschwald, somebody directly observing it. His body was not on fire, it was just covered in it.

The Final Getsuga Tenshou definitely changed Ichigo's body. Ichigo became one with "the Getsuga". That is something which only Resurreccion can do. And before Ichigo was able to use the Final Getsuga Tenshou, his Shinigami and Hollow powers fused. That is no coincidence.

Regardless of whether the Final Getsuga Tenshou requires Hollow powers or not, it's most likely not just a Bankai technique.

The only evidence for it being just a Bankai technique is the fact that Isshin apparently learned it. However, Isshin says he learned it from Engetsu. As in his Zanpakuto spirit, not his Bankai spirit. That's enough to debunk the fact that it's "absolutely" a Bankai technique, and then there's the fact that we have not seen Isshin learn the FGT.

So, all we have to go off is the fact that Ichigo fused his Shinigami and Hollow powers before he was able to use the Final Getsuga Tenshou. Beyond that, the Final Getsuga Tenshou exhibits aspects which are beyond a Bankai. Like I said, that does not mean that it's absolutely not a Bankai technique, but it is enough evidence to suggest otherwise. All it comes down to is the fact that we just don't know yet. Hopefully we'll find out soon.

[DraMas26]

Bankai = 卍解

卍 = Final
解 = Release

So unless there's some retconning, I don't see how there's a level beyond Bankai.

[Izoto]

More like FGT was the second stage of his bankai or something like that.

There's no third release for shinigami to master, that would be bogus. As per the comment above, the Bankai means Final Release -- there's a sense of finality to a bankai, from there it's a matter of mastering it to its' fullest.

Giving that a resounding no.

- - - Updated - - -


First of all, Bankai cannot affect the body of the wielder.

In what manga panel was this rule stated?

[jofosho999]

Based off the responses, I'm more inclined to say the FGT was just unique to Ichigo and Isshin, but moreso to Ichigo. As stated already, in FGT, Ichigo fused both of his powers (hollow and shinigami) perfectly in sync. Perhaps, its a modified form of his bankai? Maybe just a step above his bankai, but still loosely tied to it. It's not an entirely different release, but it certainly is different in a way. And so far, we have only seen two forms where the user loses all their powers (Ishida and Ichigo). So maybe the conclusion is that the FGT may be just unique to the likes of Ichigo and Isshin and not accessible by anyone else.

[Scarlet Fire]

Bankai, as DraMas has reminded, is the peak of Zanjutsu. There should be no other stage in zanjutsu beyond that. But there are undeniable differences between FGT and anything bankai-related we've seen:

My theory is that Final Getsuga Tenshou is a technique which mixes zanjutsu with something else, the same way shunko mixes hakuda and kido. It's not (necessarily) beyond bankai, it's something different. Shunko is developed also from kido, but we all agree that there are some kido spells which surely are stronger than shunko (time stop, teleport :D...), the same way we might discover some bankai powers stronger than final getsuga tenshou in the future.

Another proof is that ichigo learnt shikai and bankai together with zangetsu, his zanpakuto spirit (and, judging from renji's zabimaru, all the other shinigami do/have done the same). Instead, he learnt FGT together with tensa zangetsu and his inner hollow. Maybe a technique like FGT can be learnt only if you reach the peak of zanjutsu (so you can dialogue with your bankai zanpakuto spirit) and of something else which isn't usually mastered by shinigami, like hollow powers.

So it shouldn't be a technique reserved only to the main character (:)), but might be mastered by anyone who excels in the necessary fields (like shunko can be learnt by a kido and hakuda master). This explains why sombody else (like isshin) can already know about it, it can be something extremely rare, but not unique.

[jofosho999]

True..but also in that case, how does Isshin know FGT as well? My guess is that its just due to the nature of their powers. Only they have access to it. Ichigo's FGT probably is more special (never seen Isshin's yet), because he had his hollow and his shinigami side to use. Not to mention with the recent revelations that he never used an Asauchi, meaning the nature of his power is just completely different and unique.

[Scarlet Fire]

True..but also in that case, how does Isshin know FGT as well? My guess is that its just due to the nature of their powers. Only they have access to it. Ichigo's FGT probably is more special (never seen Isshin's yet), because he had his hollow and his shinigami side to use. Not to mention with the recent revelations that he never used an Asauchi, meaning the nature of his power is just completely different and unique.

Ahah, yes, Ichigo (and is powers) surely are unique... he's our protagonist, after all ;)

...yes, Isshin should have mastered something like FGT in the past, I mean a technique wich lets you develop a huge amount of power in exchange for you powers themselves... but this doesn't mean there's something unique in the kurosaki/shiba family: you don't need to be the one who already learnt something to know that it exists and to know how to reach it - shinigami students know about shikai and bankai, and know how to reach them (in theory)... yamada knows about shunpo, but he can't use it (and complains about it :D)... of course, not all the shinigami reach shikai and bankai, but the ones who do often belong to the nobility (like byakuya reminded)... isshin and ichigo belong(ed) to the highest nobility of SS, or at least their blood do, so at least also exceptional members with the purest shinigami blood (and all the other requirements) should be able to learn such a technique... but somebody who belongs to the kurosaki/shiba family, but is far weaker than ichigo/isshin (like Ganju) shouldn't be able to reach it...

[Andygoesrawr]

Bankai = 卍解

卍 = Final
解 = Release

So unless there's some retconning, I don't see how there's a level beyond Bankai.

I'm not entirely sure why 卍 is translated as final. It actually means infinite or countless - the opposite of finality. It's mean to illustrate the difference between the Shikai ("Initial Release") and the Bankai. 最後 (Saigo - from 最後の月牙天衝 (Saigo no Getsuga Tensho)), however, does actually mean final. The Shikai is the initial release, the Bankai is the infinite (incomprehensible even) release, and the FGT is the final release.


In what manga panel was this rule stated?

It's an observation, not a rule. There are no Bankai which affect the user's body. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Also, to clarify: I don't think there is necessarily a "release" above Bankai. A Bankai is the materialization of a Zanpakuto in its true form as expressed in the outer world. It's impossible for there to be something which further releases the Bankai. Rather, the Final Getsuga Tenshou is the Zanpakuto merged with the body of its user. So, technically it is the same level as a Bankai, but it is still something which is beyond regular Bankai. That's just the way I feel about it, though.

[Chimera Cord]

FGT doesn't effect Ichigo's body. The time reversal was from him losing his spiritual powers.

When Ichigo gained Fullbring, Chad noted that the ability of Ichigo's power was to shroud him in his own power. This is also the case in his basic bankai when his jacket represents his remaining reiryoku level.

FGT takes his ability to the highest degree by putting all of the spiritual power into one attack. But that leaves Ichigo with no spiritual powers. His power returns in time, but he has to start over with no reiryoku.

Up until he got the sword from Rukia, his power was not clearly above Orihime or Chad's in the FB arc.

[ReiWen]

We can looka at it in a few ways.

We have 2 BK's and two shikais in the story.
The BK, Shikai in the inner world= The spirit
The BK, Shika= The Weapon that is needed to use the Spirit's power

The spirit can allow the shinigami to use more of its own power
In Fgt all the energy that is used to create the wapon is changed into pure energy and Ichigo gains the same ability as Tensa's spirit. He chaf ull control over the Getsuga Tenshou ability and Zangi doesnt need to give Ichigo more power. Ichigop have the same control over Zangis power as Zangi himslef.
Howeve its still a Bankai ability just without the use of the Weapon aka complete control over the weapon and the power of the Zan. Its not beyound BK its jus the absolute peak of Bankai control.....

[Andygoesrawr]

FGT doesn't effect Ichigo's body. The time reversal was from him losing his spiritual powers.

When Ichigo gained Fullbring, Chad noted that the ability of Ichigo's power was to shroud him in his own power. This is also the case in his basic bankai when his jacket represents his remaining reiryoku level.

FGT takes his ability to the highest degree by putting all of the spiritual power into one attack. But that leaves Ichigo with no spiritual powers. His power returns in time, but he has to start over with no reiryoku.

Up until he got the sword from Rukia, his power was not clearly above Orihime or Chad's in the FB arc.

His eyes and hair changed colour and his sword disappeared entirely. There is no Shikai or Bankai where the Zanpakuto does not have a body. Only Resurreccion has this aspect.

Also, people seem to be having trouble distinguishing between "Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou" and "Mugetsu". Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou was the form which Ichigo entered where he "became the Getsuga"; Mugetsu is the ability he used to defeat Aizen, which literally means "no moon" or "moonless". This (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110215212606/bleach/en/images/0/05/Ichigo_Post_Dangai.jpg) is just Tensa Zangetsu.

[DraMas26]

I'm not entirely sure why 卍 is translated as final. It actually means infinite or countless - the opposite of finality. It's mean to illustrate the difference between the Shikai ("Initial Release") and the Bankai. 最後 (Saigo - from 最後の月牙天衝 (Saigo no Getsuga Tensho)), however, does actually mean final. The Shikai is the initial release, the Bankai is the infinite (incomprehensible even) release, and the FGT is the final release.


Yeah I heard of that but from what I heard 卍 is supposed to mean 'Final' in this context at least according to what people have told me.

It's kind of funny like the name of Unohana's Shikai Minazuki.

Regarding Shinigami levels, I wouldn't rule out the possibilty of there being an alternative to Bankai kind of like how the Vollstanding is the alternative to the Letz Still.

[Andygoesrawr]

Yeah I heard of that but from what I heard 卍 is supposed to mean 'Final' in this context at least according to what people have told me.

Technically it doesn't really have meaning as a word. It's a symbol used in Buddhism which means "all" or "eternity" and all synonyms thereof. I cannot find a single instance where it is meant to mean "final". It's just a weird translation.


It's kind of funny like the name of Unohana's Shikai Minazuki.

Do you mean how it's called "Minazuki" but the Kanji can't be read that way? That's called Ateji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateji). It's funny in this case, since both "Unohana" and "Minazuki" are references to Japanese months.

[Skiltron]

Zampakutto's releases are both souls, the shinigami and the sword, getting close to each other, bankai is closer than shikai, and the state that Ichigo used at the end of the deicide arc is but the closest.

[Andygoesrawr]

Zampakutto's releases are both souls, the shinigami and the sword, getting close to each other, bankai is closer than shikai, and the state that Ichigo used at the end of the deicide arc is but the closest.

I agree with this explanation. The Shikai is the "true form" of the Zanpakuto, whereas the Bankai is a combination of the Shinigami and the Zanpakuto. Tensa Zangetsu looked like a combination of Ichigo and Zangetsu, and all Bankai seem to gain an aspect from their Shinigami which is not inherently present in Shikai. For Ichigo, it is the "will to protect", as explained earlier about it enshrouding his body.

The Final Getsuga Tenshou took this a step further and was literally a fusion of the Shinigami with their Zanpakuto. In Bankai they begin to mingle, but do not become one. Ichigo's body showed aspects of Zangetsu combined with aspects of Ichigo himself.

Whether or not this is different to Bankai is up to interpretation. They would technically be the same level of release, therefore making them the same, but "a Bankai" has come to have a different meaning to simply being a release of a Zanpakuto.

[Liekkii]

Shikai is being able to communicate with your Zanpakutou and travel to its inner world. Bankai is being able to call your Zanpakutou out to your surrounding world.

I think what Ichigo did with Final Getsuga Tenshou is to call Zangetsu out completely. He fused with his Zanpakutou, therefore getting the black shroud of clothes and hair. I see Mugetsu as letting out all his spiritual pressure at once and to its final limit, therefore exhausting his powers once he uses it.

Final Getsuga Tenshou was Bankai to its extreme limits. So, no, it's not a technique beyond Bankai. It's using all your potential power at once at the cost of losing it.

[Chimera Cord]

His eyes and hair changed colour and his sword disappeared entirely. There is no Shikai or Bankai where the Zanpakuto does not have a body. Only Resurreccion has this aspect.

Also, people seem to be having trouble distinguishing between "Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou" and "Mugetsu". Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou was the form which Ichigo entered where he "became the Getsuga"; Mugetsu is the ability he used to defeat Aizen, which literally means "no moon" or "moonless". This (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110215212606/bleach/en/images/0/05/Ichigo_Post_Dangai.jpg) is just Tensa Zangetsu.

FGT iswhen all of his power is pulled out onto his body. Mugetsu is when all of his power is used in an attack.

When Ulquiorra blew off Ichigo's whole jacket on the dome, Ichigo did not lose all of his shinigami powers or his reiryoku. However, when his FGT form faded away, he lost all of his spiritual abilities.

The fact that FGT did not make him lose his powers, but Mugetsu did, is why I theorize it should be possible for him to either exit his FGT form without using Mugetsu and retain his spiritual powers (he could just spam bigger getsugas in FGT form) or that he could use Mugetsu without entering FGT and only lose an amount of power equal to what he manifests when he enters bankai.

It's not known, but the hair change could just be an accessory like his modified jacket is in his base bankai

[ReiWen]

Ichigo became Getsuga, He didnt became FGHT. Getsuga tenshou is an attack. Mugetsu=FGT its his last getsuga. It was clearly said that FGT means becoming getsuga and that after the tech is used one lost his/her power. FGT is an ability with two etaps. Ichigo needed to becmae getsuga=turn all his energy and weapon into the same type of reiatsu that is used to shot getsuga so that he could release the energy.
FGT and Mugetsu is the same thing.....

Zanpaktou is also created from reiatsu so tu release all energy the weapon itlesf needs to became pure energy.

[Andygoesrawr]

Ichigo became Getsuga, He didnt became FGHT. Getsuga tenshou is an attack. Mugetsu=FGT its his last getsuga. It was clearly said that FGT means becoming getsuga and that after the tech is used one lost his/her power. FGT is an ability with two etaps. Ichigo needed to becmae getsuga=turn all his energy and weapon into the same type of reiatsu that is used to shot getsuga so that he could release the energy.
FGT and Mugetsu is the same thing.....


The fact that FGT did not make him lose his powers, but Mugetsu did, is why I theorize it should be possible for him to either exit his FGT form without using Mugetsu and retain his spiritual powers (he could just spam bigger getsugas in FGT form) or that he could use Mugetsu without entering FGT and only lose an amount of power equal to what he manifests when he enters bankai.



http://i39.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399501.jpg
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Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is a form which involves becoming "the Getsuga". Once a person enters this form, they will lose their Shinigami powers, possibly as their Asauchi has completely disappeared and their Zanpakuto has fused with their body. Mugetsu is a technique which is used in Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou to cover the area in black Reiatsu.

There are a LOT of misconceptions in this thread :(. Everybody should go back and read Deicide. There is a lot to take in, but if you read it a few times you'll understand. I've read it at least 8 times.

[ReiWen]

http://i39.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399501.jpg
http://i15.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399503.jpg
http://i23.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399505.jpg
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http://i28.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399511.jpg
http://i20.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399513.jpg


Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is a form which involves becoming "the Getsuga". Once a person enters this form, they will lose their Shinigami powers, possibly as their Asauchi has completely disappeared and their Zanpakuto has fused with their body. Mugetsu is a technique which is used in Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou to cover the area in black Reiatsu.

There are a LOT of misconceptions in this thread :(. Everybody should go back and read Deicide. There is a lot to take in, but if you read it a few times you'll understand. I've read it at least 8 times.

Thats really isnt much different from what I said

Zangetsu said that "If you use this tech you will lose your shnigami powerr" or something like that
And Ichigo said that fgt means to become a Getsuga.....
Isshin said that Ichigo will "find out as to why Zangetsu dont want to tech him this tech(FGT)" It is because it mean that Ichigo will ose his power and zangi will be gone.
Mugetsu is the name of a tech that is created by releasing all of the suer's reiatsus at once. However mugetsu is still getsuga. Ichigo can have million attacks with million dfferent shapes an names, but it will still be just getsuga

Realyy when you must to cook something you need to do 10 different thing that have different names, but its still part of cooking.
So I dont see what is wrong with Mugetsu=FGT logic,
You have swimming but different styles have different names.... still at the end of the day its just swiming.....
To use FGT mean that the user needs to turn all energy the ineer reiats, the Bankai and most likely even the inner world and Spirit into getsuga, and the name of the Getsuga is Mugetsu, Just like Isshins would be Something and someonelse with some other Zan would have something different

Its all part of the same thing.

[Quincy Aizen]

Here is a thought...

Bankai represents final release... a release of what exactly? of the soul... of the sword.

But from the battle in Ichigo's innner world this technique is an "acceptance", quite the opposite of a release. If Yamma supposedly was at the top, looking back at his bankai it seems he was trying to hold it in as much as possible. But through many wars, kills, etc he never quite could "accept" his power (N,S,E,W but no "center"), even calling himself a monster to Shunsui. Much like Ichigo thought of himself after he fought Ulquiorra.

So as far as releasing a power, you could draw a parallel (at least mentally) between Ichigo and Yamma in being somewhat discourage by all their power. How else can these top fighters fight without killing everyone around them (Hitsu and Shunsui in FKT... worried about allies) if not by learning something else besides Bankai, the final (most destructive) release. Mugetsu was powerful but Ichigo could of "wasted it", ala Uryuu's final form, just highlighting the fact that Ichigo couldn't possibly master this new tech the first time.

Seems most likely Isshin would need this in order to not fry Masaki's brain every time he confronted the hollow inside of her. We still don't know who "created" bankai and under what circumstances, this could be a hidden technique opposite of the sword or school Yamma founded. Where do these royal family artifacts play in? Ukitake's could hold on the the soykuyo, seems powerful in its own right.

[Andygoesrawr]

Thats really isnt much different from what I said

Zangetsu said that "If you use this tech you will lose your shnigami powerr" or something like that
And Ichigo said that fgt means to become a Getsuga.....
Isshin said that Ichigo will "find out as to why Zangetsu dont want to tech him this tech(FGT)" It is because it mean that Ichigo will ose his power and zangi will be gone.
Mugetsu is the name of a tech that is created by releasing all of the suer's reiatsus at once. However mugetsu is still getsuga. Ichigo can have million attacks with million dfferent shapes an names, but it will still be just getsuga

Realyy when you must to cook something you need to do 10 different thing that have different names, but its still part of cooking.
So I dont see what is wrong with Mugetsu=FGT logic,
You have swimming but different styles have different names.... still at the end of the day its just swiming.....
To use FGT mean that the user needs to turn all energy the ineer reiats, the Bankai and most likely even the inner world and Spirit into getsuga, and the name of the Getsuga is Mugetsu, Just like Isshins would be Something and someonelse with some other Zan would have something different

Its all part of the same thing.

That is exactly the same as drawing a circle and a square and saying they are the exact same thing because they are both shapes drawn on a piece of paper.

"Getsuga" means "moon fang", and is a reference to the crescent moon. What part of Mugetsu represents the crescent moon in any way shape or form? None. There is no crescent. There is no moon. Hence "Mugetsu" (moonless).

It's like saying that Zanka no Tachi is Tenchi Kaijin, or that Sode no Shirayuki is Hakuren. Or following your analogy, saying that water is swimming. Swimming is something which requires water, that does not mean that water is swimming, or swimming is water.

I don't understand how it's so difficult to comprehend. Just because Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou has "Getsuga Tenshou" in the name doesn't mean that Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is an attack. It is a form based around the idea of the Getsuga Tenshou.

- - - Updated - - -


Here is a thought...

Bankai represents final release... a release of what exactly? of the soul... of the sword.

But from the battle in Ichigo's innner world this technique is an "acceptance", quite the opposite of a release. If Yamma supposedly was at the top, looking back at his bankai it seems he was trying to hold it in as much as possible. But through many wars, kills, etc he never quite could "accept" his power (N,S,E,W but no "center"), even calling himself a monster to Shunsui. Much like Ichigo thought of himself after he fought Ulquiorra.

This is a perfect description. Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is not a release in the sense of releasing the power of a Zanpakuto. Rather, it is releasing the Zanpakuto entirely and becoming one with it once again. The idea of "the Getsuga" transcends "Zangetsu" and "Tensa Zangetsu", since it's something which is shared between them. Ichigo returned the Getsuga to himself, thereby regaining his power which left his body in order to develop.

This fits perfectly with everything Tensa Zangetsu and Hollowfied Tensa Zangetsu said to Ichigo while fighting in his inner world. Tensa Zangetsu explained that Zangetsu and Hichigo are both Ichigo's power, both originating from his heart. Zangetsu lent his power to Ichigo, and Ichigo used it in the form of the Getsuga. By accepting Zangetsu into himself, Ichigo was able to himself become the Getsuga, rather than borrowing it from Zangetsu.

[Saiyan5ninetail]

In my own eyes, I have always seen the distinct similarities between the Quincy: Letzt Stil and the Final Getsuga Tenshou. They are both states that take the individual to the extreme limit of their power - either in preparation or to a point beyond what their bodies can withstand for a long period of time - and the end result is the loss of their powers. For a Quincy, it is because the power they obtain is too great for their bodies to sustain for long periods of time, while for a Shinigami, it seems it is the end result of accumulating all of their potential reiryoku and firing it in one devastating attack while increasing the Shinigami's abilities to their absolute limits before the release of power.

Since Quincy and Shinigami have been learnt to be opposite of one another, this actually makes sense. In part, it is why I have always believed that if those states were achieved by one who used them before, that power would become sustainable, as the Shinigami or Quincy's body has grown to adapt to the nature of the power.

[Kurogasa]

FGT is an upgraded version of GT; it's the final Getsuga Tenshou. Like Getsuga Tenshou, it's a technique, not a level of release. Both Isshin and Ichigo refer to it as a technique in all of the translations I've seen. It's an attack; it may cause a change in the user's appearance, but it's still an attack. It's not a level beyond bankai.

Seems fairly simple to me. I'm not sure why anyone would think that FGT is a release like shikai or bankai, because it was never treated that way.

[LiquidNitrogen]

I don't think there is.. Bankai is as high a level as you can get.. Ichigo's Bankai is really strong making it seem he was "Over" the power capable of a normal Bankai (@_@) I agree with DraMas26on that.

[bliz]

I've already said this once but:

Hasn't anyone every heard of "exception to the rule"?............where people goes beyond the stated definition.


Seriously,

Wasn't Stark's release an exception to the general arrancar release?
Wasn't Ulq's second form an exception to the general arrancar release?


Why don't people just accept Ichigo and Isshin are exception to the shinigami rule.


Lets look at what shikai, bankai and FGT are?

Shikai - Shinigami only partially access their power

Bankai - For most shinigami thats their maximum

FGT - The shinigami and the zan becomes one with each other


If one follows the pattern from shikai to bankai to FGT, then at each stage the shinigami and the zan becomes closer to each other. Now one might question why doesn't all shinigami reach that last stage but the answer is simple...........

Not all shinigami are aware of the release where the shinigami and their zan can become one. It simply isn't a common knowledge seeing as only the zan spirit can to tell you this.

Ichigo had to be told by Isshin and where Isshin learnt this is a question. I wouldn't be surprised if the answer lies with the MONK RG since going by his theme (monk=mediation) then he could have been the first one to figure out such a connection. Isshin could have been told of the technique if there is a family connection between the two.

Lets not forget we don't know the name of the monk and could be a shiba.

or

Isshin and Ichigo are exception to the rule as I just said.




However one needs to take into account Isshin talked about FGT but we can't confirm if he did used it himself. This chapter itself questions if Isshin is really who he claims to be since some facts are simply not adding up. It simply makes no sense why Isshin would even need to learn FGT given the fact in his base form he can give the likes of Aizen a good run for his money.

I'll stand by my theory............Isshin was simply using false identity in gotei 13. FGT (or a variant) is only known by RG, hence why they are suppose to be absurdly powerful. This to me would explain why he doesn't want to go to SS because if he did now, it would raise questions and Isshin might have to reveal his real identity.

All this time RG have been aware of Ichigo's home, hence without a doubt they would know who Isshin was.

[jofosho999]

It may be a technique, but its a pretty unique technique then... changing the entire form of Ichigo and then using up all his powers in one attack. Guess I should've rephrased the question if FGT is the strongest form/technique he has. Meaning that it may still be his bankai in use, but definitely the highest form of it. So different variations of bankai MAY be possible then

[Scarlet Fire]

FGT is an upgraded version of GT; it's the final Getsuga Tenshou. Like Getsuga Tenshou, it's a technique, not a level of release. Both Isshin and Ichigo refer to it as a technique in all of the translations I've seen. It's an attack; it may cause a change in the user's appearance, but it's still an attack. It's not a level beyond bankai.

Seems fairly simple to me. I'm not sure why anyone would think that FGT is a release like shikai or bankai, because it was never treated that way.

Yes, that's right, it's simply an attack, a technique, it's still something different from a bankai (or a simple bankai technique):

for shikai you need to dialogue and cooperate with your zanpakuto

for bankai you need to materialize and make submit your zanpakuto

for FGT you need to accept your zanpakuto and become one with it:

The requirements are different. The effects are different (shikai and bankai can be repeated more than one time. FGT cannot). It's not a matter of power, but the nature of the technique itself differs from the one of zanjutsu releases. So the only conclusion possible is that it's not a zanjutsu release stage, and it's not part of it (like a bankai technique would be).

[Saiyan5ninetail]

@ bliz: You are overthinking Isshin's identity. It has been revealed transparently clear that he is of the Shiba Clan, and Kukaku referring to him as "uncle" only solidifies that statement. Among the Noble Clans, the Shiba seem to be the most closely associated with the Royal Realm because it is through their cannons they are tasked with the conveyance of the Royal Guard back to the Royal Realm after leaving it. Perhaps Isshin learnt something through that association, but he is not a Royal Guard member.

[bliz]

@ bliz: You are overthinking Isshin's identity. It has been revealed transparently clear that he is of the Shiba Clan, and Kukaku referring to him as "uncle" only solidifies that statement. Among the Noble Clans, the Shiba seem to be the most closely associated with the Royal Realm because it is through their cannons they are tasked with the conveyance of the Royal Guard back to the Royal Realm after leaving it. Perhaps Isshin learnt something through that association, but he is not a Royal Guard member.

Maybe so........

But Kukaku's statement would be still valid if Isshin's older brother left the Royal realm and married a Shiba. That would still make Isshin a uncle to Shiba trio.

However I agree its possible Isshin learnt of the technique through his association with the royal guards. Engetsu wouldn't have just revealed the information just like that.

[Chimera Cord]

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Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is a form which involves becoming "the Getsuga". Once a person enters this form, they will lose their Shinigami powers, possibly as their Asauchi has completely disappeared and their Zanpakuto has fused with their body. Mugetsu is a technique which is used in Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou to cover the area in black Reiatsu.

There are a LOT of misconceptions in this thread :(. Everybody should go back and read Deicide. There is a lot to take in, but if you read it a few times you'll understand. I've read it at least 8 times.

The language seems to be clear, but there's still the fact that Ichigo lost his powers because of Mugetsu, not FGT. If it was FGT that would cause him to lose his powers then you wouldn't think that releasing Mugetsu would instantly cause his FGT form to fade away. If it's the FGT that's making him lose his powers then whatever attacks he uses in that form shouldn't have any effect on the whole process of FGT taking away his powers. So it's not a misconception. It's just an overly-general statement from Ichigo and Kubo about what exactly this technique entails.

Besides that, there is still that we don't know why FGT makes him lose his powers. Is it because Mugetsu is the only attack he can use while in that form so if he uses FGT he will inevitable have to use Mugetsu and thus lose his powers? Even though we've never seen Ichigo charge a Getsuga Tensho, but decide not to fire it and then draw it back in to his sword, there's still no reason he shouldn't be able to. If it is true that Ichigo cannot exit his FGT after entering it then it would also be true that, after summoning a Getsuga, Ichigo is unable to withdraw that power back into himself.

[Elementalist]

@Scarlet Fire

With regards to Mugetsu & the "requirements" of Ichigo learning FGT, they are not different at all. All he did was practice Jinzen, thats something that every Shinigami known does. Its simply a method of getting into better harmony with your Zan, as Ichigo could not learn the tech due to his inner disharmony.

----

Isshin also stated something that people seem to have forgotten: Ichigo gained all his techniques up till that point by force. He quickly gained them in order to gain the power he needed at the moment without the understanding that would come in time. That is why Isshin told him to use Jinzen in order to better harmonize his power like the other Shinigami for thousands of years do.

So... how exactly does Ichigo go from being basically "behind" every other Shinigami with his relationship with Zangetsu, to suddenly ahead of them all (some thousands of years old) enough to unlock some higher release, all the while using a "basic" tech that they all use in the first place? It makes absolutely no sense. Mind you, I'm referring to release states and harmony with the Zan, not power levels. It takes "time" in order to harmonize and fight as one with your Zan, thats why Ichigo gained so much from the Dangia training. It does not put him "ahead" but simply on par and fighting like hes actually supposed to rather than forcing it like mentioned above.

As for Ichigo's Bankai, people also fail to remember that is was always different than most others, as its a compression rather than the typical expansion of Bankai like Byakuya noted, save for Yama-ji's which I will say is the most overall similar. Point is, theres nothing special about Mugetsu/FGT, its not some "third release state" nor does it's name even hint at such. Final simply means that is the final Getsuga one will ever use due to the subsequent power loss, it can't get any more simple than that unless your over thinking things.

[harahara]

I think people are simply confusing themselves with the type of power Ichigo had with the FGT technique. There is a difference between FGT & being of transcendent type. Ichigo was a transcendent before he even learned FGT, as a matter of fact, Isshin also knows FGT and we all know that Isshin is no transcendent, it is simply an ability/attack that boosts your physical prowess with the end result of losing your own powers. It is just an ability.

There's no such thing as "beyond Bankai", or a release beyond Bankai, nor there should be.

[Quincy Aizen]

Considering there was a lot of missing dialogue no one can say for sure mugetsu and final getsuga tensho are the same as bankai. Same thing about not ever seeing inside another shinigami's inner world.

And the fact that Ichigo gained shikai and bankai through some "nefarious" means by Urahara I don't know how anyone can judge his relationship with is zanpaktou... especially since we now know every other shinigami used an asachi. To me that immediately puts Ichigo ahead of everyone "by handicap".

Inside his inner world Ichigo had to harmonize with all his power (hollow included), not just his zanpatkou spirit. Byakuya also noted achieving great power early can be related to having royal blood. Considering he is the only other captain we have seen use bankai with royal blood who also achieved a compression type bankai during his third stage it seems like Ichigo skipped a lot of stages of bankai that he went through, and that renji and Ikkaku are going through.

Yes Yamma had a compression type bankai... but what about Gin... and Unohana. I don't recall any major sword transformations.

Could it not also be that the HK stopped following Aizen bc of FGT/mugetsu when it still rejected Gin who just used his bankai to kill Aizen?

I'm not saying either way at this point, but when only Ichigo and Isshin (who is now some weird hybrid) knows about it makes it hard to believe its just a normal attack. Especially considering Byakuya went through 3 stages and did not lose his powers (or was scared of it happening), or even Yamma who had four and was ready to use bankai again.

What about the fact that "transcendent" Aizen could not feel his reiatsu even before using FGT, that makes it seem on another level than bankai by itself. Throw in the "fusing" with the zan in the outside world as well makes it different than bankai in my opinion. I just remember Aizen words stating that "perhaps this is the original form of zanpaktou", so considering that every other shinigami was given/stole an asachi makes this fusion different than a attack... more like the original form that can predate bankai... a royal form.

Maybe this "fusion" helps bankai... but it still makes it different than a simple GT. Perhaps it just removes the "buffer" between the sword and shinigami, but imo still makes it different than bankai which is a sword release (bc it can't be used without it). Not to mention that Ichigo broke his sword before using it... this is also different than bankai.



@Scarlet Fire

With regards to Mugetsu & the "requirements" of Ichigo learning FGT, they are not different at all. All he did was practice Jinzen, thats something that every Shinigami known does. Its simply a method of getting into better harmony with your Zan, as Ichigo could not learn the tech due to his inner disharmony.


----

Isshin also stated something that people seem to have forgotten: Ichigo gained all his techniques up till that point by force. He quickly gained them in order to gain the power he needed at the moment without the understanding that would come in time. That is why Isshin told him to use Jinzen in order to better harmonize his power like the other Shinigami for thousands of years do.

So... how exactly does Ichigo go from being basically "behind" every other Shinigami with his relationship with Zangetsu, to suddenly ahead of them all (some thousands of years old) enough to unlock some higher release, all the while using a "basic" tech that they all use in the first place? It makes absolutely no sense. Mind you, I'm referring to release states and harmony with the Zan, not power levels. It takes "time" in order to harmonize and fight as one with your Zan, thats why Ichigo gained so much from the Dangia training. It does not put him "ahead" but simply on par and fighting like hes actually supposed to rather than forcing it like mentioned above.

As for Ichigo's Bankai, people also fail to remember that is was always different than most others, as its a compression rather than the typical expansion of Bankai like Byakuya noted, save for Yama-ji's which I will say is the most overall similar. Point is, theres nothing special about Mugetsu/FGT, its not some "third release state" nor does it's name even hint at such. Final simply means that is the final Getsuga one will ever use due to the subsequent power loss, it can't get any more simple than that unless your over thinking things.

[bliz]

@Scarlet Fire

With regards to Mugetsu & the "requirements" of Ichigo learning FGT, they are not different at all. All he did was practice Jinzen, thats something that every Shinigami known does. Its simply a method of getting into better harmony with your Zan, as Ichigo could not learn the tech due to his inner disharmony.


No. There is certainly a requirement and that is, you need to accept your power.

Ichigo's disharmony made it harder. However the problem stems from his lack of trust in his hollow side, aka himself due to his fear of his destructive instinct. Once the shinigami and hollow side fused, it became unified irrespective of what Ichigo felt.

The unification was to show Ichigo, the hollow is nothing more than a side of Ichigo. At that point it was all about if Ichigo would accept both side.

Don't tell me - Isshin did Jinzen and Engetsu casually told him about FGT and how to attain it. It would contradict what Isshin himself said.



Isshin also stated something that people seem to have forgotten: Ichigo gained all his techniques up till that point by force.


Ichigo's shinigami power was awakened prematurely by Urahara. But by force? Maybe!
Ichigo's instantly went Shikai. But by force? No! Ichigo didn't force it but it was due to Ichigo's vast power.
Ichigo communicated with Zangetsu when facing Zaraki. But by force? No! Zangetsu came to Ichigo.
Ichigo gained Bankai. But by force? YES! This is not the normal method.
Ichigo learnt how to use Getsuga Tensho. But by force? NO! Its was a technique of his zan and he learnt the name from Zangetsu
Ichigo gained hollow power. But by force? NO! He was born with it and Urahara's method merely awakened it.
Ichigo gained control over his hollow. But by force? NO! There is no alternate method.
Ichigo gained a Arrancar-like release. But by force? NO! It was purely by instinct.

Only once Ichigo actually learnt a technique by force and that was his bankai. And there is no sweet talking way of learning how to control ones hollow and neither would Isshin be aware of the technique.

Because Ichigo is 99% of the time in Bankai, doesn't mean all of Ichigo's technique is through force.



So... how exactly does Ichigo go from being basically "behind" every other Shinigami with his relationship with Zangetsu, to suddenly ahead of them all (some thousands of years old) enough to unlock some higher release, all the while using a "basic" tech that they all use in the first place? It makes absolutely no sense. Mind you, I'm referring to release states and harmony with the Zan, not power levels. It takes "time" in order to harmonize and fight as one with your Zan, thats why Ichigo gained so much from the Dangia training. It does not put him "ahead" but simply on par and fighting like hes actually supposed to rather than forcing it like mentioned above.


Because Ichigo is special. Why do you equate Zangetsu just like a normal shinigami's zan spirit? And not all shinigami have multiple technique, hence its not fair to criticise Ichigo using Getsuga Tensho.

[jofosho999]

FGT might not be a third release or anything...but maybe like a 2.5 release? lol. Ichigo really looks different in that form, not to mention his power heightens considerably, and he also loses his power. It's not just merely a technique or still a bankai form. But, I'll probably agree its not a third release though. More like the final bankai form, or whatever you guys wanna call it.

[BlackSoul]

is there a level beyond bankai? unlikely IMO.

as it was stated before by other members (who used far more words) I don't think FGT is a form beyond bankai.
it's powerful and final (kinda) but I'd say it's fundamentally different from bankai.

then bankai itself; it's the full release of a zanpakuto and the full release of it's master's power. there's no such thing as "fuller" or "more full" at all so it's say bankai still is the pinacle of what a shinigami chan achieve.
however, there's more than only one attack and technique in bankai! rather than saying there's a form above bankai I'd say that bankai itself has no real boundaries. as long as a shinigami is alive he can always grow stronger, develp new techniques in bankai and so on. we saw that even the CC's bankai was still growing despite his advanced age.

so there's nothing above the pinacle but the pinacle itself isn't a final station either but rather a starting point to more growth.

[jofosho999]

^That summarizes it nicely. Just cause someone achieves bankai that means that that's their final form/release. They still have a long ways to go to reach the final level of that bankai. Its also due to the nature of their power. Bankai increases power level/output by what again? 10-16 times? Forgot. In Ichigo's FGT form, it seemed to increase his power "another dimension" over. That's why some people are saying that, that form is above bankai. And he loses his power at the same time too. It might be the pinnacle of his bankai powers then, this probably applies to everyone, but not everyone can have a move that will use up all of the user's reiatsu and then lose their powers. Its probably only accessible to Isshin and Ichigo. There are variations in final quincy forms as we saw..Letz Stil vs Vollstaing. So it may still be a bankai form, but a modified version of it. A huge expansion over it.

[Ichigo]

Shikai and Bankai, initial and final release. Shinigami are able to perfect their bankai and unlock it true power, but other then that I don't believe there is a release above the bankai.

[Andygoesrawr]

The idea of considering Ichigo as a normal Shinigami is absolutely absurd...

Also, this question remains ambiguous. Is the question "is there a release beyond Bankai" or "is there a form beyond Bankai"? In fact, the word "beyond" is highly ambiguous too. Do you mean "stronger than" or "naturally succeeding?"

Is there a "release" stronger than or naturally succeeding Bankai?: absolutely not. Bankai is the truest manifestation of a Zanpakuto spirit. You can't release something further than when it is entirely released. The reason the Quincies can only steal Bankai and not Shikai is because it's only in Bankai when the Zanpakuto is in its absolute "truest" form.

Is there a "form" naturally succeeding Bankai? (as in, for all Shinigami): no. If there was, Shinigami would know about it. There may only be a small amount of Shinigami who gain Bankai, but Soul Society has been around for at least 2000 years. Surely if there was a form which requires only Jinzen then it would've already been achieved and documented. (Technically the answer is "maybe" because it's entirely dependent on the Shinigami. Yumichika has two levels of Shikai, something which shouldn't be possible.)

Is there a "form" stronger than Bankai?: absolutely. Stepping sideways, we see Resurreccion which lies on the same level as Bankai. As we saw with Tosen, Resurreccion requires only having Hollow powers. It doesn't necessarily require being an Arrancar. It's fair to assume that the combination of a Resurreccion and a Bankai would truly be the most powerful form in existence (at this point anyway :p). Ichigo nearly reached this when he was taken over by Hollow Ichigo against Ulquiorra. However, Ichigo himself was the only thing missing from this mix. Final Getsuga Tenshou, however, was a form which clearly combines the laws of Bankai and Resurreccion. He manifested the true form of his Zanpakuto, just as one does in Bankai, however he also "returned his powers to himself", just as one does in Resurreccion. He did not "use" Resurreccion and Bankai concurrently, rather he combined the two and blurred the lines between the two. (He did not have a hole in his chest because he was actually returning his heart to himself, rather than tearing it out or externally manifesting it.)

As such, I would say no, there is not a release above Bankai. However, there is a form. Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is the very definition of "transcendence". Ichigo did not ascend above Bankai or Resurreccion, but he definitely transcended them both.

EDIT: ALSO! We need to keep in mind that Isshin is currently "permanently" entwined with an extremely powerful Hollow. We cannot continue to regard him as a regular Shinigami either. He is not an exception to the rule when discussing Ichigo. He is in the same situation Ichigo came to be in, just not naturally.

[BlackSoul]

^ isshin isn't in the same situation as ichigo at all!
he's using his powers to supress masaki's hollowfication but he's not hollowfied himself and he doesn't have access to hollow powers like the vizards and his son do.
he might be an odd ball at this point but not one being grouped together with ichigo and the vizards.

since a bankai is a pure shinigami technique I also wouldn't say hollowfication in any form applied would be something considered above bankai. it's vastly different, another approach to power but, again, not to be grouped together with the shinigami technique of bankai.

[Andygoesrawr]

^ isshin isn't in the same situation as ichigo at all!
he's using his powers to supress masaki's hollowfication but he's not hollowfied himself and he doesn't have access to hollow powers like the vizards and his son do.
he might be an odd ball at this point but not one being grouped together with ichigo and the vizards.

I didn't meant for it to seem like I was saying Isshin is a Vizard. I was just saying that Isshin's soul is completely entwined with the soul of a Quincy and a Hollow. That just means that anything which involves these soul types is not out of the question. The fact that he can appear in Masaki's subconscious and see the Hollow means that he has the ability to interact with it in the same way Ichigo did with his own. But it's unlikely he can use it to manifest a mask like Ichigo. It is possible though.

The entire point of entwining Masaki and Isshin's souls together was so that all four soul types would be present for both, preventing Soul Suicide and Hollowfication in Masaki. Ichigo is a being with the same situation (the four soul types entwined) but in the form of a single being.


since a bankai is a pure shinigami technique I also wouldn't say hollowfication in any form applied would be something considered above bankai. it's vastly different, another approach to power but, again, not to be grouped together with the shinigami technique of bankai.

That's exactly what I said. Neither ascends the other. They are equivalents in different forms. By combining Resurrección and Bankai, one would achieve a form unlike either which has the ability to transcend both.

[Bala de Impacto]

I believe there's Bankai modifying, like how regular Senbonzakura Kageyoshi can become Senkei, Gokei, and Shukei Hakuteiken, but a level beyond that, I do not think so.

[happystars]

To me, final getsuga tensho is a getsuga tensho technique used when ichigo is in bankai form, in which it utilises all of ichigo's shinigami and hollow powers to power it. Hence, when it is released by the command, Mugetsu, he loses all his powers subsequently. Thus, I think that it's still a bankai technique by Ichigo's zan spirit, but as it's powered by all his shinigami and hollow powers (and perhaps even backed up by his quincy potential, though it was not hinted at yet then), the hybrid made the level of power unthinkable, hence Aizen couldn't sense his reiatsu at all.

It's as simple as that to me :)

[Chimera Cord]

The idea of considering Ichigo as a normal Shinigami is absolutely absurd...

Also, this question remains ambiguous. Is the question "is there a release beyond Bankai" or "is there a form beyond Bankai"? In fact, the word "beyond" is highly ambiguous too. Do you mean "stronger than" or "naturally succeeding?"

Is there a "release" stronger than or naturally succeeding Bankai?: absolutely not. Bankai is the truest manifestation of a Zanpakuto spirit. You can't release something further than when it is entirely released. The reason the Quincies can only steal Bankai and not Shikai is because it's only in Bankai when the Zanpakuto is in its absolute "truest" form.

Is there a "form" naturally succeeding Bankai? (as in, for all Shinigami): no. If there was, Shinigami would know about it. There may only be a small amount of Shinigami who gain Bankai, but Soul Society has been around for at least 2000 years. Surely if there was a form which requires only Jinzen then it would've already been achieved and documented. (Technically the answer is "maybe" because it's entirely dependent on the Shinigami. Yumichika has two levels of Shikai, something which shouldn't be possible.)

Is there a "form" stronger than Bankai?: absolutely. Stepping sideways, we see Resurreccion which lies on the same level as Bankai. As we saw with Tosen, Resurreccion requires only having Hollow powers. It doesn't necessarily require being an Arrancar. It's fair to assume that the combination of a Resurreccion and a Bankai would truly be the most powerful form in existence (at this point anyway :p). Ichigo nearly reached this when he was taken over by Hollow Ichigo against Ulquiorra. However, Ichigo himself was the only thing missing from this mix. Final Getsuga Tenshou, however, was a form which clearly combines the laws of Bankai and Resurreccion. He manifested the true form of his Zanpakuto, just as one does in Bankai, however he also "returned his powers to himself", just as one does in Resurreccion. He did not "use" Resurreccion and Bankai concurrently, rather he combined the two and blurred the lines between the two. (He did not have a hole in his chest because he was actually returning his heart to himself, rather than tearing it out or externally manifesting it.)

As such, I would say no, there is not a release above Bankai. However, there is a form. Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is the very definition of "transcendence". Ichigo did not ascend above Bankai or Resurreccion, but he definitely transcended them both.

EDIT: ALSO! We need to keep in mind that Isshin is currently "permanently" entwined with an extremely powerful Hollow. We cannot continue to regard him as a regular Shinigami either. He is not an exception to the rule when discussing Ichigo. He is in the same situation Ichigo came to be in, just not naturally.

As far as we can tell, it's not possible to do what you're describing.

The highest level of mixing powers we have witnessed is Resureccion Segunda Etapa and Ichigo using Horoka and bankai at the same time.

It is mechanically impossible for a being to activate their sword's bankai when their sword has already changed form into the mask and form that cover their body. There is no longer a sword to act a medium for their zanpakuto spirit to exert its powers from.

That would be the case with any Shinigami or Arrancar that used an asauchi, but then there's Ichigo's ability to seemingly make his own zanpakuto.

Ichigo's bankai sword would vanish when he entered his final form, but with his power to create zanpakuto would be what he used to summon that sword he used on Aizen. With that sword, he'd be able to use his shinigami powers to attack, but thanks to his Resurreccion the power of his attack would be on a level above Shinigami or Hollow.

So FGT and Mugetsu would be from Ichigo's bankai, but the transcendent level boost and the wrappings on his torso would be from his Resurreccion.


But the way Ichigo entered FGT would have required him to activate his Resurreccion without saying its name. And it's not very much of a Resurreccion if that's the case. So that's suspicious.

[ReiWen]

That would be the case with any Shinigami or Arrancar that used an asauchi, but then there's Ichigo's ability to seemingly make his own zanpakuto.
This line soinds kind of weird.... Everyone can create/manifest their own Zanpaktou(Weapon) just Ichigo doesnt need the asauchi help.

I didnt read the last few posts, but I see we are trying to create some bankai/resurection thing?....

Well fgt had all of Ichigos power so of course hollow and shinigami reiatsu was in it. However it doesnt make fgt any less bk since Zangi and Hichi are one and if we try to make some BK/RESU mix than Ichigos curent BK shouldnt be even called BK. Nos should his post-dangai form be called BK.

Ichigos hollow and Shinigami reiatsu was/is in tottal balance so there is no need for a Res. In fht he covered himself in all of his reiatsu

[BlackSoul]

This line soinds kind of weird.... Everyone can create/manifest their own Zanpaktou(Weapon) just Ichigo doesnt need the asauchi help.

I didnt read the last few posts, but I see we are trying to create some bankai/resurection thing?....

Well fgt had all of Ichigos power so of course hollow and shinigami reiatsu was in it. However it doesnt make fgt any less bk since Zangi and Hichi are one and if we try to make some BK/RESU mix than Ichigos curent BK shouldnt be even called BK. Nos should his post-dangai form be called BK.

Ichigos hollow and Shinigami reiatsu was/is in tottal balance so there is no need for a Res. In fht he covered himself in all of his reiatsu

I don't disagree with you but wouldn't this all clearly make it something different from bankai altogether?
not higher or lower but with all the mix something besides bankai. I don't think FGT is a bankai ability and since bankai is a shinigami thing and normal shinigami don't have hollow powers so it won't be accounted for.

also; this discussion shouldn't involve ichigo so much since we all know just how special he is and FGT is probably the most special thing of all.
we should look to the normal shinigami and not hybrids and what not.

[Chimera Cord]

This line soinds kind of weird.... Everyone can create/manifest their own Zanpaktou(Weapon) just Ichigo doesnt need the asauchi help.

Apparently they can't because it has been a million years since anyone manifested a zanpakuto without one of Ouetsu's asauchi.

[Izagami]

I just don't think there is a level beyond Bankai, Bankai is powerful enough as it is so making another level to make a character even stronger would be silly especially considering it's name as "Final Release"

I think FGT Was simply Ichigo's ultimate Bankai form. His was unusually stronger than most others due to the fact that when he uses it he loses his Shinigami powers.

So Ichigo has an ultimate and unbeatable offence but it's cost is great so I just think it's his ultimate/final skill of his Bankai. Think of Byakuya's ultimate bankai skill, his is also great offence but not to the scale of FGT. All Bankai's have some form of ultimate skill...a last resort if you will...

[ReiWen]

Apparently they can't because it has been a million years since anyone manifested a zanpakuto without one of Ouetsu's asauchi.

Yes the cant on their own, the need the Asauchi help. I just said that what you said sounded like they cant at all, or thier Zans arent their own, but rather something that is shaped by the Asauchi and of course it isnt the case since they all have spiritsu inside of them the just cant manifest the power of the spirit without help


I don't disagree with you but wouldn't this all clearly make it something different from bankai altogether?
not higher or lower but with all the mix something besides bankai. I don't think FGT is a bankai ability and since bankai is a shinigami thing and normal shinigami don't have hollow powers so it won't be accounted for.

also; this discussion shouldn't involve ichigo so much since we all know just how special he is and FGT is probably the most special thing of all.
we should look to the normal shinigami and not hybrids and what not.
Ichigos hollow was nothing more than a reiatsu boost. So even if his BK reiatsu and his own reiatsu is a little different its still BK. Otherwise what Ichigo use now isnt BK and the entire talk about fixing a Zanpaktou shouldnt even take place since Ichigo doesnt have a Zanpaktou at all, but he have its just ave different reiatsu structure from other Bankais. The Visoreds also have a little different reiatsu structure....

As to whatever FGT is a BK tech or not depends of what BK we are talking about. If we're talking about BK as the Weapon than its hard to say, but GT is the tech of a Bankai and in FGT the bankai and all of Ichigos reiatsu is changed into getuga. Ichigos reobe and blade are made out of reiatsu so with ebought mastey he should be able to change his BK into reiatsu and use it to attack.

There is also BK as the Spirit. The Weapons power comes to the Spirit. If TZ wants he can give Ichigo more of his power.
In FGT Ichigo is like TZ and have tottal control over the power of the BK and the power of his BK is GT.....
No matter how I lokk at it its just total mastery of a Zan. Its common thing in martial arts. Becoming one with your weapon its a level of mastery and not a sign of becoming some mutant...
Higher release wouldnt allow Ichigo to win a battle if he wouldnt be able to control it.
Rly GT is and attack so FGT is a dinal attack.... There really no simpler explanation.... and it makes perfect sense

Some people really like to complicate their lives

[Saiyan5ninetail]

Yes the cant on their own, the need the Asauchi help. I just said that what you said sounded like they cant at all, or thier Zans arent their own, but rather something that is shaped by the Asauchi and of course it isnt the case since they all have spiritsu inside of them the just cant manifest the power of the spirit without help

Exactly. We saw this with Toshiro, who was able to see Hyorinmaru in his Inner World long before he entered the Academy and received an Asauchi. As far as I know, the Asauchi serves as an aid to the Shinigami to manifest their Zanpakuto, as all Shinigami since Soul Society's birth have used Nimaiya's Asauchi. It is in the same principle that the Quincy use their Crosses to focus the reishi used to form Spirit Weapons.

Based on Nimaiya's words, there are certain implications about not needing an Asauchi to manifest your Zanpakuto, and the fact he said so implies to me that it has happened before - back when his Asauchi were not used. Perhaps it is the same for Quincy - exceptionally unique Quincy are able to generate Spirit Weapons without the need of a Cross.

[Tekken13]

Exactly. We saw this with Toshiro, who was able to see Hyorinmaru in his Inner World long before he entered the Academy and received an Asauchi. As far as I know, the Asauchi serves as an aid to the Shinigami to manifest their Zanpakuto, as all Shinigami since Soul Society's birth have used Nimaiya's Asauchi. It is in the same principle that the Quincy use their Crosses to focus the reishi used to form Spirit Weapons.

Based on Nimaiya's words, there are certain implications about not needing an Asauchi to manifest your Zanpakuto, and the fact he said so implies to me that it has happened before - back when his Asauchi were not used. Perhaps it is the same for Quincy - exceptionally unique Quincy are able to generate Spirit Weapons without the need of a Cross.

Amongst the Stern Ritters, Royd showed the ability to fire arrows without a bow or a sword. Yhwach himself can fire powerful reishi blasts from his index finger and use reishi to create a throne and steps to walk on. I notice that Yhwach and quite of few of the Stern Ritters weren't wearing gloves when they invaded the Seireitei. It'd be boss if Yhwach and maybe some of the SR can go Vollstandig without the glove. Haschwalth, with just a basic spirit weapon, was able to break Tensa Zangetsu in half in one blow. It shows how much the boss himself was holding back in his skirmish with Ichigo.

[Chimera Cord]

Yes the cant on their own, the need the Asauchi help. I just said that what you said sounded like they cant at all, or thier Zans arent their own, but rather something that is shaped by the Asauchi and of course it isnt the case since they all have spiritsu inside of them the just cant manifest the power of the spirit without help

Based on Tousen being able to use his old friends sword to manifest his own zanpakuto, the zanpakuto of all Shinigami are only reflections of their zan spirits. They're not the actual Shinigami's spirit.

For example, if you ripped off a Hollow's mask it would grow back. If you destroy a Shinigami's zanpakuto, they would need another one to be made for them. Their power is not really their own. All the current Shinigami are basically artificial.

Their swords are just asauchi that have molded themselves into reflections of the Shinigami that wield them. However, that is just a facade. The whole time, the true identity of the spirit within the sword is just a featureless humanoid.

[Chimera Cord]

Exactly. We saw this with Toshiro, who was able to see Hyorinmaru in his Inner World long before he entered the Academy and received an Asauchi. As far as I know, the Asauchi serves as an aid to the Shinigami to manifest their Zanpakuto, as all Shinigami since Soul Society's birth have used Nimaiya's Asauchi. It is in the same principle that the Quincy use their Crosses to focus the reishi used to form Spirit Weapons.

Based on Nimaiya's words, there are certain implications about not needing an Asauchi to manifest your Zanpakuto, and the fact he said so implies to me that it has happened before - back when his Asauchi were not used. Perhaps it is the same for Quincy - exceptionally unique Quincy are able to generate Spirit Weapons without the need of a Cross.

This is a 4th level secret. For the Quincy, the ability to manifest a spirit weapon without the aid of a cross (if this is truly possible because it hasn't been confirmed yet) is dependent on the strength of their Quincy powers. When Uryu had on the Sanrei Glove, it acted as his cross, but after he took the glove off he was still able to form a bow. This reveals that, with strong enough powers, Quincy can form unique bows unaided.

When Ichigo gained his own Shinigami powers, Zangetsu revealed that Shinigami also have the ability to manipulate spiritons in the atmosphere around them to form footholds in mid-air. Is that not exactly what Quincy do to perform Hirenkyaku?



Since Shinigami apparently also have Quincy type abilities (just like how Hollows use Fullbring) then the most likely rule for manifesting a Zanpakuto is for a Shinigami to grow so strong that their ability to manipulate spiritons would allow them to create a sword for themselves. They then use their Shinigami powers to place their heart into the sword they created. Boom. Naturally made Zanpakuto.

However, the bar for being able to create solid object with your mind is very high, even for Quincy. Uryu just gained the ability to make a solid bow, with a cross, over the time skip. Uryu's power is Captain class at this point, but he still doesn't have the power to make a Zanpakuto for himself.

So, essentially, any Shinigami below the rank of senior a Vice Captain would have been unable to purify any Hollows a millenia ago before Ouetsu started making his asauchi.

With an increase in the human population there would inevitably be an increase in the number of Hollows. But that doesn't mean there would be more individuals at the level of power necessary to create a Zanpakuto and purify the increased population of Hollows.






I think it's important to remember that all of the Royal Guard members should have intelligence on par with Mayuri and Aizen's. And possibly even equal to or above Urahara's.

[Andygoesrawr]

But the way Ichigo entered FGT would have required him to activate his Resurreccion without saying its name. And it's not very much of a Resurreccion if that's the case. So that's suspicious.

It was not technically a Resurreccion or a Bankai... in his Full Hollow form, he did indeed use Bankai while being Hollowfied, whereas Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou was a perfect fusion of Hollow and Shinigami powers. When you have a fusion, the result exhibits features of both things while also exhibiting features which makes them absolutely not each singular thing. If that makes sense...

Tosen did not use a release command when he entered his Resurreccion. He said its name in the same way people do when they enter Bankai. They don't have to at all, they just do it because they want to.


For example, if you ripped off a Hollow's mask it would grow back.

Source? We know for a fact that a Hollow's mask actually doesn't grow back when torn. Di Roy was not able to continue evolution after Grimmjow took a bite out of his mask, and when a Hollow has their mask torn off they become Arrancars and their masks never regenerate.

- - - Updated - - -


I think it's important to remember that all of the Royal Guard members should have intelligence on par with Mayuri and Aizen's. And possibly even equal to or above Urahara's.

That's a weird assumption... moreover, what does any of this have to do with "Is there a level beyond Bankai"...?

[Minerva]

Source? We know for a fact that a Hollow's mask actually doesn't grow back when torn. Di Roy was not able to continue evolution after Grimmjow took a bite out of his mask, and when a Hollow has their mask torn off they become Arrancars and their masks never regenerate.
Nel's brothers were able to change their masks, though.
http://i34.mangapanda.com/bleach/297/bleach-2406421.jpg
Most Hollows probably can't restore their masks. It takes resolve/motivation: they were determined to protect Nel who could no longer take care of herself.

[Andygoesrawr]

Nel's brothers were able to change their masks, though.
http://i34.mangapanda.com/bleach/297/bleach-2406421.jpg
Most Hollows probably can't restore their masks. It takes resolve/motivation: they were determined to protect Nel who could no longer take care of herself.

I figured they were just wearing actual masks. It doesn't make sense for a Hollow to be able to "change" their mask, since it's a manifestation of their heart.

[Chimera Cord]

It was not technically a Resurreccion or a Bankai... in his Full Hollow form, he did indeed use Bankai while being Hollowfied, whereas Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou was a perfect fusion of Hollow and Shinigami powers. When you have a fusion, the result exhibits features of both things while also exhibiting features which makes them absolutely not each singular thing. If that makes sense...

Tosen did not use a release command when he entered his Resurreccion. He said its name in the same way people do when they enter Bankai. They don't have to at all, they just do it because they want to.


That's really inconclusive. Unless Ichigo's full Hollow form can use a Getsuga Tensho then it doesn't really go against believing his heart moved out of the sword and onto his body.


Tousen:"Suzumushi Mode 100: Grillar Grillo"

Did you forget his Resurreccion had a name?


Source? We know for a fact that a Hollow's mask actually doesn't grow back when torn. Di Roy was not able to continue evolution after Grimmjow took a bite out of his mask, and when a Hollow has their mask torn off they become Arrancars and their masks never regenerate.

Sora's mask grew back after being partially ripped off. Dondochakka and Pesche were able to grow new masks after theirs were completely ripped off.

I haven't been able to decipher what about Menos causes them to stop their evolution if bitten so I can't really guess why the injury would be permanent. But it's an injury given to an Adjuchas by another Adjuchas. We already know such an injury is "special" in a certain way.


That's a weird assumption... moreover, what does any of this have to do with "Is there a level beyond Bankai"...?

Just a stray thought since I was talking about asauchi.

- - - Updated - - -


I figured they were just wearing actual masks. It doesn't make sense for a Hollow to be able to "change" their mask, since it's a manifestation of their heart.

When Ichigo was training for bankai, Zangetsu was able to summon what looked like a hundred different swords. None were identical, but they wre all made from Ichigo's heart.

So Hollows should be able to make many different masks too.

[Minerva]

I figured they were just wearing actual masks. It doesn't make sense for a Hollow to be able to "change" their mask, since it's a manifestation of their heart.
Why couldn't they have a change of heart, then? They chose to stay to protect Nel. For a Hollow, choosing to have an attachment to another Hollow is a big deal. They could have left her there to die; they could have devoured her. They chose to protect her instead; they chose to stay with her and take care of her.

They accepted this as a replacement for the bonds they lost. She is not the sister each of them lost, but they will accept her as their darling little sister. That is a change of heart, and it resulted in a change of mask.

[Andygoesrawr]

I think we're going a bit off-topic here. The title of this thread is "Is there a level beyond Bankai?", not "let's discuss Hollows".


Tousen:"Suzumushi Mode 100: Grillar Grillo"

Did you forget his Resurreccion had a name?


Tosen did not use a release command when he entered his Resurreccion. He said its name in the same way people do when they enter Bankai. They don't have to at all, they just do it because they want to.

*+*Reading Comprehension Award*+*


Sora's mask grew back after being partially ripped off.

Well, that was chapter 3. Kubo has retconned a lot in regards to Hollows since then.


Why couldn't they have a change of heart, then? They chose to stay to protect Nel. For a Hollow, choosing to have an attachment to another Hollow is a big deal. They could have left her there to die; they could have devoured her. They chose to protect her instead; they chose to stay with her and take care of her.

Why do Arrancars not get their entire masks back when they release their Resurreccion? And it's more that a mask is the representation of a person's soul than their heart. Case in point: Ichigo's Hollow mask, which is the result of White's Hollowfication. It does not express his heart in any way.

Like I said though, this has gone completely off-topic. If we're going to make this discussion relevant: why did Ichigo not have a mask or weapon in FGT? It's an important aspect, especially since we've had so much importance put into a Hollow's mask and Asauchi recently. He also did not lose his heart when he entered FGT. I've offered a possible explanation, with FGT actually being all of his power returning to his heart. It explains why he doesn't have a weapon, mask, or hole in his chest, while still allowing it to be explained as something more powerful than Bankai (which it clearly is), and also something which involves losing powers. He returned his powers to himself, and therefore was unable to manifest them outwardly anymore.

If anybody has any other possible explanations for this, go ahead.

[Elementalist]

^ If you want to get technical, Ichigo was the weapon, he basically became Getsuga. This is only unique because thats what his Bankai does in the first place, he wears it as a mantle like Arrancar wear their Resurrections, but that does not make them the same.

Yamamoto does pretty much something very similar with his own Bankai. Its a compression like Bankai similar to Ichigo's as he compresses the flames within his blade, and he wears it like Ichigo in FKT when using Zanka no Tachi West. He becomes a living embodiment of his own flames and Zan power, just like how Ichigo became his own Getsuga. The difference is that Ichigo burns all his power in one strike while Yamamoto does not.

I still fail to see how FKT is anything other than a Zan move, people shouldn't be making it more complicated.

[Andygoesrawr]

^ If you want to get technical, Ichigo was the weapon, he basically became Getsuga. This is only unique because thats what his Bankai does in the first place, he wears it as a mantle like Arrancar wear their Resurrections, but that does not make them the same.

Yamamoto does pretty much something very similar with his own Bankai. Its a compression like Bankai similar to Ichigo's as he compresses the flames within his blade, and he wears it like Ichigo in FKT when using Zanka no Tachi West. He becomes a living embodiment of his own flames and Zan power, just like how Ichigo became his own Getsuga. The difference is that Ichigo burns all his power in one strike while Yamamoto does not.

I still fail to see how FKT is anything other than a Zan move, people shouldn't be making it more complicated.

That's exactly what I mean. Ichigo returned his power to himself, thereby becoming the blade. He became the Getsuga. His right arm was covered in Reiatsu, representing that his entire arm itself became a blade to be wielded.

It is very different to both Bankai and Resurreccion, though. In Bankai he wore his power, which very much so represents his will to protect. This was explained by Chad when discussing his Fullbring. In FGT, however, he actually became his power.

The comparison to Yamamoto is not quite correct. He did not become a living embodiment of his flames at all. Zanjitsu Gokui literally means "Remnant Sun Prison Garb". He wore his flames, just like Ichigo does in his Bankai. He did not become his flames. Haschwald even said that what looked like flames coming from Yamamoto's body was actually just his Reiatsu, which was so intense that it looked like flames.

There's an obvious difference between FGT and a regular Bankai. That's not to say that FGT is something which is more of a "release" than Bankai, but it means that FGT is not just a Bankai technique. It may very well be, but there is no evidence to support that theory and there are mountains of evidence against it.

This discussion is a bit pointless anyway. All it's going to result in is continuous back and forth between people who disagree with each other. The fact of the matter is that we have not seen enough of FGT or heard enough about it to know for sure what it is. And if all goes well, we will never see it again.

[harahara]

It is very different to both Bankai and Resurreccion, though. In Bankai he wore his power, which very much so represents his will to protect. This was explained by Chad when discussing his Fullbring. In FGT, however, he actually became his power.

The Resurreccion part only helped Ichigo reaching transcendency, it has nothing to do with Bankai, while on the other hand FGT is something that even Isshin is capable of, and we all know Isshin is no hybrid. Thus, FGT is a Zanpakto ability and doesn't have anything to do with being a transcendent or a hybrid.


The comparison to Yamamoto is not quite correct. He did not become a living embodiment of his flames at all. Zanjitsu Gokui literally means "Remnant Sun Prison Garb". He wore his flames, just like Ichigo does in his Bankai. He did not become his flames.

Ichigo in FGT basically "wore" Getsuga on himself. Similar to how Yamamoto "wore" his own flames. Ichigo's reatsu became his Getsuga and Yamamoto's reatsu became his flames.

[Andygoesrawr]

The Resurreccion part only helped Ichigo reaching transcendency, it has nothing to do with Bankai, while on the other hand FGT is something that even Isshin is capable of, and we all know Isshin is no hybrid. Thus, FGT is a Zanpakto ability and doesn't have anything to do with being a transcendent or a hybrid.

That is entirely inconclusive. As I've mentioned multiple times, Isshin is currently entwined with a powerful Hollow at the soul level. If he had to become a hybrid, he could. Also, we don't know at all if Isshin was actually able to use FGT, or even if he was able to actually learn it. He only attempted to. If it requires Hollow powers, he wouldn't have been able to learn it.


Ichigo in FGT basically "wore" Getsuga on himself. Similar to how Yamamoto "wore" his own flames. Ichigo's reatsu became his Getsuga and Yamamoto's reatsu became his flames.

Ichigo did not wear the Getsuga. He became the Getsuga. His hair and eyes changed colour, showing that it wasn't just something that covered his body; it was something which affected his body itself.

Yamamoto, however, wore his flames. "衣" (the last Kanji in Zanjitsu Gokui) literally means "clothing". There is no other way to interpret it other than something which covers the body.

To say that Zanjitsu Gokui and Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou are the same in concept would be to go against what we've been told. We've explicitly been told that Ichigo became the Getsuga, and Yamamoto wore his flames. Going against what we've been explicitly told is completely ridiculous, and takes away absolutely any credibility from the theory altogether.

[harahara]

That is entirely inconclusive. As I've mentioned multiple times, Isshin is currently entwined with a powerful Hollow at the soul level. If he had to become a hybrid, he could. Also, we don't know at all if Isshin was actually able to use FGT, or even if he was able to actually learn it. He only attempted to. If it requires Hollow powers, he wouldn't have been able to learn it.

The only relation between Isshin and Masaki's Hollow is to keep Masaki from Soul Suicide. The possibility of Isshin getting Hollow powers via Masaki doesn't sound in any way justifiable and I highly doubt Kubo would go that route. But what we do know, is that Isshin's Engetsu did not want to teach Isshin the FGT, and Engetsu is a Zanpakto; Shinigami.

But of course you can reply "welp, Engetsu and Isshin's Hollow are the same" - but such scenario of Isshin gaining Hollow powers really sounds extremely doubtful, I'm sure most people agree that Isshin is 100% a Shinigami and not another race.


To say that Zanjitsu Gokui and Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou are the same in concept would be to go against what we've been told. We've explicitly been told that Ichigo became the Getsuga, and Yamamoto wore his flames. Going against what we've been explicitly told is completely ridiculous, and takes away absolutely any credibility from the theory altogether.

So you say that Hitsugaya only "wears" his Ice? He doesn't merge with his Zanapkto on a low level (since his potential hasn't been reached) ? Your interpretation cannot be taken in a conclusive way just yet, we still lack information in this whole subject, but since we have been implied that becoming 1 with your Zanpakto is the highest level, it does not surprise someone as old and experienced as Yamamoto to have attained it.

It could go either way, we just have yet to see what Kubo decides.

[Andygoesrawr]

The only relation between Isshin and Masaki's Hollow is to keep Masaki from Soul Suicide. The possibility of Isshin getting Hollow powers via Masaki doesn't sound in any way justifiable and I highly doubt Kubo would go that route. But what we do know, is that Isshin's Engetsu did not want to teach Isshin the FGT, and Engetsu is a Zanpakto; Shinigami.

But of course you can reply "welp, Engetsu and Isshin's Hollow are the same" - but such scenario of Isshin gaining Hollow powers really sounds extremely doubtful, I'm sure most people agree that Isshin is 100% a Shinigami and not another race.

Once again, I was not implying that Isshin is a Vizard. I'm saying that the possibility is always there. All we know is that Isshin's soul, Masaki's soul and the Hollow's soul are all tied together right now. Isshin is capable of interacting with the Hollow, as seen when he entered Masaki's inner world. Therefore, if Kubo wanted him to have Hollow powers, he could do it. Alternatively, if he wanted Isshin to remain Shinigami-Human then he can. I personally do not believe Isshin will become a Vizard, so there's no point in arguing about it since we both agree.


So you say that Hitsugaya only "wears" his Ice? He doesn't merge with his Zanapkto on a low level (since his potential hasn't been reached) ?

Absolutely. There has been nothing to suggest otherwise. If Hitsugaya's body became one with his Zanpakuto then he would've died every time his ice is shattered. To say that his body turns into ice when he uses his Bankai is ridiculous. There is absolutely no proof to support such a statement.


Your interpretation cannot be taken in a conclusive way just yet, we still lack information in this whole subject, but since we have been implied that becoming 1 with your Zanpakto is the highest level, it does not surprise someone as old and experienced as Yamamoto to have attained it.

Yes, however, what we saw was his Bankai. He referred to it as such, and it was stolen by Juhabach without Yamamoto's body being taken with it. Therefore they were not fused. The Vandenreich can only steal Bankai.

[harahara]

Absolutely. There has been nothing to suggest otherwise. If Hitsugaya's body became one with his Zanpakuto then he would've died every time his ice is shattered. To say that his body turns into ice when he uses his Bankai is ridiculous. There is absolutely no proof to support such a statement.

The matter of the fact is that we just don't know how such dynamics yet, so we can't be conclusive. Why would Hitsugaya "die" when a part of his power(ice) shatters? That doesn't make much sense.


Yes, however, what we saw was his Bankai. He referred to it as such, and it was stolen by Juhabach without Yamamoto's body being taken with it. Therefore they were not fused. The Vandenreich can only steal Bankai.

If you're going with such logic of "body & power stuck together" then Ichigo should have faded away with his powers, but he didn't, did he? As I said, Kubo could very well go the direction of Zanka No Tachi similar to FGT if he so wants, or of course, he could go otherwise.

[Andygoesrawr]

The matter of the fact is that we just don't know how such dynamics yet, so we can't be conclusive. Why would Hitsugaya "die" when a part of his power(ice) shatters? That doesn't make much sense.

Because you implied that his body would turn to ice. If that ice were shattered, that body part would be shattered. If his entire Bankai were to be shattered, he would shatter and die.


If you're going with such logic of "body & power stuck together" then Ichigo should have faded away with his powers, but he didn't, did he? As I said, Kubo could very well go the direction of Zanka No Tachi similar to FGT if he so wants, or of course, he could go otherwise.

Ichigo's powers weren't torn from his body while he was still fused with them... they receded into the depths of his soul. This was explained during the Fullbring arc. The reason he was able to regain his powers is because they didn't actually disappear.

Also, the Vandenreich actually take the body of the Bankai, not the spirit. Otherwise Shinigami would not be able to use their Shikai after their Bankai is stolen. Bankai cannot be regenerated, which is why once it's taken by the Vandenreich they cannot use it.

So no, Kubo would not likely say that Zanjitsu Gokui is the same as Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou. He could if he wanted to, but he would be making some serious retcons. Plus it just doesn't make sense.

[harahara]

Because you implied that his body would turn to ice. If that ice were shattered, that body part would be shattered. If his entire Bankai were to be shattered, he would shatter and die.

If I remember correctly, Hitsugaya's hands and legs/feet turn to ice. We've never seen him get damaged in those areas.


Ichigo's powers weren't torn from his body while he was still fused with them... they receded into the depths of his soul. This was explained during the Fullbring arc. The reason he was able to regain his powers is because they didn't actually disappear.

Also, the Vandenreich actually take the body of the Bankai, not the spirit. Otherwise Shinigami would not be able to use their Shikai after their Bankai is stolen. Bankai cannot be regenerated, which is why once it's taken by the Vandenreich they cannot use it.

So no, Kubo would not likely say that Zanjitsu Gokui is the same as Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou. He could if he wanted to, but he would be making some serious retcons. Plus it just doesn't make sense.

What I'm getting to is that Ichigo became Getsuga, but when Getsuga faded away, Ichigo did not fade away, they simply separated. Same thing applies to Hitsugaya or Yamamoto, their powers have been separated from them and got stolen by the Vandenreich. As far as I can see it, there isn't a difference between "being your power" and "wearing it", because Ichigo, Yamamoto and Hitsugaya all "wear/be" their powers & thus can separate from them.

You're taking Yamamoto's attacks' name too literally, it's not like he raised Ten Trillion Dead.

[Andygoesrawr]

If I remember correctly, Hitsugaya's hands and legs/feet turn to ice. We've never seen him get damaged in those areas.

The wiki explains it perfectly:


Hitsugaya's Bankai causes ice to flow from Hyōrinmaru onto Hitsugaya, starting at his right arm, which ice forms onto in the shape of a dragon's head around his sword hand, encasing the sword up to the hilt, which also changes from the shape of a four-pointed star to that of an eight-pointed star. The ice continues forming up over his shoulders, with two large wings sprouting from his back and a long tail. The ice forms down his left arm and encases his hand, which ends in a claw. Hitsugaya's feet are encased in ice in a similar manner to his left hand, as they also end in claws.

His body does not turn to ice. It is encased in it. If you want references and images where you can clearly see the difference between the ice and his skin, you can get them here (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/T%C5%8Dshir%C5%8D_Hitsugaya#Zanpakut.C5.8D).


What I'm getting to is that Ichigo became Getsuga, but when Getsuga faded away, Ichigo did not fade away, they simply separated. Same thing applies to Hitsugaya or Yamamoto, their powers have been separated from them and got stolen by the Vandenreich. As far as I can see it, there isn't a difference between "being your power" and "wearing it", because Ichigo, Yamamoto and Hitsugaya all "wear/be" their powers & thus can separate from them.

I am wearing a red shirt, therefore I am red shirt. :rolleyes:


You're taking Yamamoto's attacks' name too literally, it's not like he raised Ten Trillion Dead.

There's a huge difference. People often use big numbers as a non-literal way of saying "a lot". There isn't an easy way in Japanese to say "a huge amount of" without it sounding like you're just saying "multiple". Saying ten trillion is much more intimidating and illustrative of the ability itself. As long as he rouses less than or 10,000,000,000,000,000 skeletons, he isn't going against the name of the ability. Being made of something when the ability specifically says wearing something goes entirely against the name of the ability.

EDIT: DraMas26 mentioned that "ten trillion" is used in Japanese to reference Elysium, the world of the dead. Thanks DraMas :)

More information (http://baike.baidu.com/view/2701860.htm) (in Chinese)

[harahara]

Oh well, we're just going to keep going back & forth. :p I do think you're taking Yamamoto's attacks name too literally, and if you do so for 1 attack you must do it for all attacks, but since Yamamoto did not raise ten trillion dead, I do not think Yamamoto was 'wearing' flames, in all actuality, there were no flames, it was his reatsu that seemed as if they were flames, in other words, Yamamoto's reatsu became flames. I take the same logic and apply it to Ichigo, Ichigo's own reatsu became Getsuga.

That's how I see it, we'll see who is right when Kubo reveals it. :)

[Andygoesrawr]

Oh well, we're just going to keep going back & forth. :p I do think you're taking Yamamoto's attacks name too literally, and if you do so for 1 attack you must do it for all attacks, but since Yamamoto did not raise ten trillion dead, I do not think Yamamoto was 'wearing' flames, in all actuality, there were no flames, it was his reatsu that seemed as if they were flames, in other words, Yamamoto's reatsu became flames. I take the same logic and apply it to Ichigo, Ichigo's own reatsu became Getsuga.

That's how I see it, we'll see who is right when Kubo reveals it. :)

DraMas brought up the point that "ten trillion" is in reference to the land of the dead. Source if you want to translate Chinese. (http://baike.baidu.com/view/2701860.htm)

And in actuality, "Zanjitsu Gokui" does not mention flames. It is "Remnant Sun Prison Garb". So the fact that he wasn't wearing flames is irrelevant. He was wearing heat.

Therefore they're all still entirely accurate when taken literally. What I was saying before is that there's no metaphorical way to take "wearing" as meaning "being".

But yes, this discussion is going nowhere. It was nice discussing with you :)

[bliz]

Yamamoto's reatsu became flames. I take the same logic and apply it to Ichigo, Ichigo's own reatsu became Getsuga.


I know what flames are but what exactly is a "getsuga"? You lost me there.

[namc]

With Isshin's fireball recently, I think its become clear that certain bloodlines have some kind of an elemental affinity unless all shinigami can convert their own blood to energy similar to a cero and its just obscenely underutilized. There should be no comparison between the transformations of Yama/Hitsu and Ichigo/Getsuga, as they are entirely seperate conditions. Hitsu actually showed us first the concept of enwrapping oneself in their reiatsu is solid in principle, yama just made it sexy. Ichigo arriving to confornt Aizen with his sword chain wrapping his arm would be the phase equal to Yama's ZnT, where he is symbiotic with his zan(parasite?). Ichigo uses the FGT, and immediately manifests armor and changes his entire physical form, down to hair color and length which we have only seen with his hollow transformation atop the dome where he was possessed by his hollow side. One of the being's suppressed took over on the outside, and as such changed the physical form. This happened atop the dome for his hollow side, and with his summoning getsuga for his shinigami side.

[BlackSoul]

I know what flames are but what exactly is a "getsuga"? You lost me there.

I thought getsuga was ichigo's reiatsu turned beam-spam?
when used in shikai it's white/yellow (depending on wheter it's manga or anime) and when in bankai it's black which goes nicely with ichigo's overall black theme.

so what is getsuga? ichigo's reiatsu or manifestation of power.
wasn't it said during fullbring that one aspect of ichigo's power is to be shrouded in power? which goes back to the compressing theme which is also ongoing with him. ichigo's not expelling powers, he's returning everything to himself and uses himself to fight.
shinigami like byakuya and kommamura (and many more) use items to attack, if I may call them as such. tiny blades or a large samurai warrior. but ichigo won't do such things, his power's only strengthening himself and he's doing all the fighting himself.

which would in turn result in FGT where even the beam-spam GT returned to ichigo and he himself became the attack. nothing external, all ichigo's own doing and just like a beam-spam fades and extinguishes after an attack so did ichigo's powers.

well, even though that explanation was probably a bit rambling I hope it was usefull?

[namc]

Pretty bold interperitation of a non factual statement there elementalist.
In this chapter we are witnessing the hollow overthrow Masaki as the "host". The only time we have seen this occur so far, has been Ichigo losing control to his hollow atop the dome where his whole physical body changed (including hair length) and Ichigo summoning Getsuga where his hair color and length also changed. To my knowledge theese are the only known instances of a being that is suppressed within another overpowering the host.

Masaki's hair has not changed apparently anyway, though the hollow hole is a change on her physical form. We have too little information pertaining to Zanpakuto or hollow escaping their owners to rule out the similaritys or conclude as mentioned " the only reason why Ichigo lost all his powers is because that is the nature of his technique and nothing more.".

This chapter showed us the very first set of "laws" when it comes to containing another entity within yourself, as well as set up a structure of the types of races in the story and their role in the bigger picture.

[bliz]

I thought getsuga was ichigo's reiatsu turned beam-spam?
when used in shikai it's white/yellow (depending on wheter it's manga or anime) and when in bankai it's black which goes nicely with ichigo's overall black theme.

so what is getsuga? ichigo's reiatsu or manifestation of power.
wasn't it said during fullbring that one aspect of ichigo's power is to be shrouded in power? which goes back to the compressing theme which is also ongoing with him. ichigo's not expelling powers, he's returning everything to himself and uses himself to fight.
shinigami like byakuya and kommamura (and many more) use items to attack, if I may call them as such. tiny blades or a large samurai warrior. but ichigo won't do such things, his power's only strengthening himself and he's doing all the fighting himself.

which would in turn result in FGT where even the beam-spam GT returned to ichigo and he himself became the attack. nothing external, all ichigo's own doing and just like a beam-spam fades and extinguishes after an attack so did ichigo's powers.

well, even though that explanation was probably a bit rambling I hope it was usefull?


Yamaji's fire based zan makes his reiatsu into flames/mimics flames and therefore radiates heat. Same applies to Hitsugaya. But why would Ichigo's reiatsu be anything other than his reiatsu in shikai/bankai? Ichigo's power isn't elemental based or mimics anything within nature.

[BlackSoul]

Yamaji's fire based zan makes his reiatsu into flames/mimics flames and therefore radiates heat. Same applies to Hitsugaya. But why would Ichigo's reiatsu be anything other than his reiatsu in shikai/bankai? Ichigo's power isn't elemental based or mimics anything within nature.

ichigo uses his reiatsu as attack, I called it beam-spam.
he gethers it at the tip of zangetsu and then shoots it. it's just compressed reiatsu expelled to attack. I wouldn't say it's elemental based, if anything it's more like kidou.

[ReiWen]

I know what flames are but what exactly is a "getsuga"? You lost me there.
Yamas flams is his reiatsu converted to flames by ZnT, Ichigos black getsuga is his reiatsu turned into the reiatsu of TZ.

Basicaly both are reiatsu of the user turned into reiatsu of the Zan.

Getsug and Yamas flames the same as Hitsu ice and everything else besides maybe Ichigos getsuga in Shikai is just Kido. When Oomada fought Baragan he was like " I wish to have some kido boased Zan that makes fire or ice". Everything that isnt a pure reiatsu release is kido in on form or another.

[Arkyle]

Bankai = 卍解

卍 = Final
解 = Release

So unless there's some retconning, I don't see how there's a level beyond Bankai.

Oh come on, this is a shounen. By that logic the anime should have ended hundreds of chapters ago.

I think it was pretty obvious there is something beyond bankai but not for Shingami, but for beings that trascended the shinigami (not Vizards, but real ones, like Aizen and Ichigo). Still we will see but I guess something beyond bankai will be coming anytime soon. This is a shounen afterall.

[Minerva]

Why do Arrancars not get their entire masks back when they release their Resurreccion? And it's more that a mask is the representation of a person's soul than their heart. Case in point: Ichigo's Hollow mask, which is the result of White's Hollowfication. It does not express his heart in any way.
Some of them do. And for others it changes in that form. Grimmjow's mask is not the same as it is on his human form, for example.

In Ichigo's case, how much of what we're seeing from his powers are the results of the vector White transmitted? Did those powers "leak" over his real powers? Engetsu and Zangetsu should be similar to some extent due to familial tendencies; they aren't. I would like to see Isshin's bankai to check, but from what little we've seen his bankai is probably not like Ichigo's. Byakuya already made his comment about Ichigo's tiny bankai, for example.

When Ulquiorra invaded the human world, it was easy for him to identify Ichigo: orange hair, blank bankai.
http://i37.mangapanda.com/bleach/193/bleach-1588928.jpg
That makes it clear that this something weird/unmistakable about that particular bankai. Add a mask to it, and suddenly he might be mistaken for an Arrncar:
http://i6.mangapanda.com/bleach/270/bleach-1590170.jpg

His bankai is different from a normal Shinigami. Ouetsu can't even repair this one. How much of what we're seeing with FKT is also "weird" and unique to Ichigo?

[Arkyle]

Some of them do. And for others it changes in that form. Grimmjow's mask is not the same as it is on his human form, for example.

In Ichigo's case, how much of what we're seeing from his powers are the results of the vector White transmitted? Did those powers "leak" over his real powers? Engetsu and Zangetsu should be similar to some extent due to familial tendencies; they aren't. I would like to see Isshin's bankai to check, but from what little we've seen his bankai is probably not like Ichigo's. Byakuya already made his comment about Ichigo's tiny bankai, for example.

When Ulquiorra invaded the human world, it was easy for him to identify Ichigo: orange hair, blank bankai.
http://i37.mangapanda.com/bleach/193/bleach-1588928.jpg
That makes it clear that this something weird/unmistakable about that particular bankai. Add a mask to it, and suddenly he might be mistaken for an Arrncar:
http://i6.mangapanda.com/bleach/270/bleach-1590170.jpg

His bankai is different from a normal Shinigami. Ouetsu can't even repair this one. How much of what we're seeing with FKT is also "weird" and unique to Ichigo?

I thought Ichigo's bankai was really different...until we saw Yamamoto's, which is in its roots the same: minimal blade, all the flames condenced in the tip, shrouded by his own power. Still it has a few other abilities (which Ichigo has as well). The fact that Ouetsu can't repair it has more to do, IMO, with the fact that he is not a Shinigami and that Zangetsu wasn't created via an Asauchi. Man, bleach is getting interesting again!

[BlackSoul]

I thought Ichigo's bankai was really different...until we saw Yamamoto's, which is in its roots the same: minimal blade, all the flames condenced in the tip, shrouded by his own power. Still it has a few other abilities (which Ichigo has as well). The fact that Ouetsu can't repair it has more to do, IMO, with the fact that he is not a Shinigami and that Zangetsu wasn't created via an Asauchi. Man, bleach is getting interesting again!

amen, bro!

just as you've said, ichigo's no "real" shinigami and apparently created his own zanpakuto. sugar daddy implied that this hasn't happened before.
I suspect that rather than repairing or reforging ichigo'll create a completely new, proper asauichi based, zangetsu this time around. it was also implied that ichigo's been doing great to achieve what he did without even a proper zanpakuto so we can expect even greater things once ichigo's caught up to all the other shinigami and got his hands on a "real" zanpakuto.
or that's my speculation anyway.

[ishida]

I agree with Arkyle. There is a level greater than bankai. If there wasn't there wouldn't be a point of having beings like Ichigo, Aizen, Yhwach and the Spirit King. A regular bankai could defeat them easily. Bankai's don't change form except when they are young and still developing like Toshiro's. After Renji's zanpaktu is reforged he will get a fully matured bankai. With Ichigo his bankai has always changed. Before he went FGT he was in his matured bankai. The ban on his guard had elongated and his chain was long and wrapped around his arm. After Fullbring his bankai changed again. Once Ichigo master his Quincy side his bankai will undergo another change.

- - - Updated - - -


Some of them do. And for others it changes in that form. Grimmjow's mask is not the same as it is on his human form, for example.

In Ichigo's case, how much of what we're seeing from his powers are the results of the vector White transmitted? Did those powers "leak" over his real powers? Engetsu and Zangetsu should be similar to some extent due to familial tendencies; they aren't. I would like to see Isshin's bankai to check, but from what little we've seen his bankai is probably not like Ichigo's. Byakuya already made his comment about Ichigo's tiny bankai, for example.


Byakuya comment was null and voided when we saw Gin's bankai. Even Yama-ji first initial bankai release was just the flames contained at the tip of his zanpaktu.

- - - Updated - - -


amen, bro!

just as you've said, ichigo's no "real" shinigami and apparently created his own zanpakuto. sugar daddy implied that this hasn't happened before.
I suspect that rather than repairing or reforging ichigo'll create a completely new, proper asauichi based, zangetsu this time around. it was also implied that ichigo's been doing great to achieve what he did without even a proper zanpakuto so we can expect even greater things once ichigo's caught up to all the other shinigami and got his hands on a "real" zanpakuto.
or that's my speculation anyway.

Ichigo doesn't require a zanpaktu anymore. He can fullbring his badge and after he masters his Quincy powers he can create a sword from his mother's Quincy cross.

[Elementalist]

I agree with Arkyle. There is a level greater than bankai. If there wasn't there wouldn't be a point of having beings like Ichigo, Aizen, Yhwach and the Spirit King.

Thats because their "nature" makes them greater, not the techs they hold. Last time I checked Bach was also not a transcendent but a strait up Quincy, so he shouldn't really count.



A regular bankai could defeat them easily.

lmao Really now? A regular Bankai could defeat even regular old Shinigami Aizen easily? Not even counting his multiple transcendent forms... Seriously? Same for Bach and everyone else mentioned. That right there makes one realize a third release is not needed.



Bankai's don't change form except when they are young and still developing like Toshiro's.

Byakuya disagrees with you.



After Renji's zanpaktu is reforged he will get a fully matured bankai. With Ichigo his bankai has always changed. Before he went FGT he was in his matured bankai. The ban on his guard had elongated and his chain was long and wrapped around his arm. After Fullbring his bankai changed again. Once Ichigo master his Quincy side his bankai will undergo another change.


I think Yamamoto already commented on why Ichigo's Bankai is still "evolving." Its because he hasn't had the time to master it yet, it takes a good while to grow and mature your Bankai. Another explanation is that this is due to Ichigo's nature, since his Bankai integrates other powers like his Fullbring. Again though, this is because of nature rather than a specific technique, and it does not indicate another release.


Pretty bold interperitation of a non factual statement there elementalist.
In this chapter we are witnessing the hollow overthrow Masaki as the "host". The only time we have seen this occur so far, has been Ichigo losing control to his hollow atop the dome where his whole physical body changed (including hair length) and Ichigo summoning Getsuga where his hair color and length also changed. To my knowledge theese are the only known instances of a being that is suppressed within another overpowering the host.

Masaki's hair has not changed apparently anyway, though the hollow hole is a change on her physical form. We have too little information pertaining to Zanpakuto or hollow escaping their owners to rule out the similaritys or conclude as mentioned " the only reason why Ichigo lost all his powers is because that is the nature of his technique and nothing more.".

This chapter showed us the very first set of "laws" when it comes to containing another entity within yourself, as well as set up a structure of the types of races in the story and their role in the bigger picture.

Okay then, here are some facts for you :) :

Really, I've also seen no explanation for why Isshin can learn the same move, if FGT/Mugetsu is suppose to be something "special" then it should have only been given to Ichigo, but it wasn't. Isshin is a young Captain thats likely no older than Byakuya, so a normal Shinigami Captain learning FGT brings the logical conclusion thats all it is, a Bankai tech. The whole "but hes a human bound to a Quincy/Hollow" thing also doesn't fly, because Isshin has not taken Shinigami form since that incident. That means he learned FGT before all that went down. Unless the manga states explicitly otherwise, evidence shows to me Mugetsu/FGT is just the major finishing move of the Getsu Zans, like Zanki no Tachi North was for Yamamoto, or "Shukei Hakuteiken" for Byakuya.

[Andygoesrawr]

Okay then, here are some facts for you :) :

Really, I've also seen no explanation for why Isshin can learn the same move, if FGT/Mugetsu is suppose to be something "special" then it should have only been given to Ichigo, but it wasn't. Isshin is a young Captain thats likely no older than Byakuya, so a normal Shinigami Captain learning FGT brings the logical conclusion thats all it is, a Bankai tech. The whole "but hes a human bound to a Quincy/Hollow" thing also doesn't fly, because Isshin has not taken Shinigami form since that incident. That means he learned FGT before all that went down. Unless the manga states explicitly otherwise, evidence shows to me Mugetsu/FGT is just the major finishing move of the Getsu Zans, like Zanki no Tachi North was for Yamamoto, or "Shukei Hakuteiken" for Byakuya.

Not facts at all. It has never been said that Isshin knew or used Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou. All we know for sure is that he attempted to learn it.


fact
/fakt/
Noun
A thing that is indisputably the case.

The fact that this thread has 9 pages (an actual fact) means that those are clearly not facts.

[Elementalist]

True, we never have seen him use it on-screen, but it is heavily implied that he knows it. (or tried to learn it) How exactly was he able to get the information to tell Ichigo about it? Just who do you think gave him that info other than his own Zan, which he actually states?

We know that he also has access to the basic Getsuga Tensho, so it shouldn't be a stretch he could use the other variant either. The mere fact that he could even attempt to learn it proves that its a tech of the Zanpaktou.

[bliz]

How exactly was he able to get the information to tell Ichigo about it? Just who do you think gave him that info other than his own Zan, which he actually states?


Isshin also says the zan spirit are not willing to share that information. Therefore Engetsu didn't inform Isshin. It's safe to say Isshin learnt of the information from someone else. The Monk RG is a good bet seeing as he is symbolic of one doing meditation (aka Jinzen).



We know that he also has access to the basic Getsuga Tensho, so it shouldn't be a stretch he could use the other variant either. The mere fact that he could even attempt to learn it proves that its a tech of the Zanpaktou.


Yeah, its a tech of the Zanpaktou, as is shikai and bankai. But nothing says its not a higher release state than Bankai.

[Chimera Cord]

I think we're going a bit off-topic here. The title of this thread is "Is there a level beyond Bankai?", not "let's discuss Hollows".





*+*Reading Comprehension Award*+*

It's not necessary to say the name of the bankai (though it's unclear if the naming rule applies to bankai and shikai releases just like with attacks)

But Tousen didn't use bankai, he used Resurreccion. Every Resurreccion used in the manga has been used with a release command and then named.


You get no reward for a baseless assumption.

[harahara]

Isshin also says the zan spirit are not willing to share that information. Therefore Engetsu didn't inform Isshin. It's safe to say Isshin learnt of the information from someone else. The Monk RG is a good bet seeing as he is symbolic of one doing meditation (aka Jinzen).

Isshin was referring to the consequences of using FGT = power loss. Isshin also stated this;
http://i21.mangapanda.com/bleach/408/bleach-2400051.jpg

He knows that the Zangetsu would on a rampage, meaning his Engetsu went on a rampage as well. Everything points to Isshin knowing the FGT. It's more safe to say that Isshin knows it, than saying "Monk RG taught him"


Yeah, its a tech of the Zanpaktou, as is shikai and bankai. But nothing says its not a higher release state than Bankai.

There is no such thing as another release than Bankai. As a matter of fact, the Vandenreich are stealing what? Bankai's. As a matter of fact, what Bankai's do we have yet to see? The Top-tier characters. As a matter of fact, have you seen Yamamoto's Bankai?

Bankai is the final resort of a Shinigami - Shunsui Kyoraku.
There are 2 releases; Shikai & Bankai - Yoruichi Shihoin

Bankai is the final release. There is no such thing as after Bankai. Nor is there a need.

[kurohyou]

Isshin also says the zan spirit are not willing to share that information. Therefore Engetsu didn't inform Isshin. It's safe to say Isshin learnt of the information from someone else. The Monk RG is a good bet seeing as he is symbolic of one doing meditation (aka Jinzen).


I don't see how you can read those chapters and gather that Isshin DOESN'T know FGT. And how you can say he learned it from someone we have no information on. Of course Isshin knows FGT because he seems pretty aware of the situation he going to encounter in his inner world. It doesn't mean he has actually used it.

I agree with others that it is a technique and that's it.

I would assume all seated officers with Shikai practice Jinzen. It seems to be a normal thing to do outside of actual sword training. It doesn't seem like a lot of Shinigami just fight and fight until they accidentally learn a new technique and try to repeat it. And you have to understand how low Ichigo is on the move-list. He has one. Byakuya has four distinct techniques in Bankai. I believe FGT is just a very powerful technique with a very grave consequence for using it.

[bliz]

Everything points to Isshin knowing the FGT. It's more safe to say that Isshin knows it, than saying "Monk RG taught him"


Without Isshin telling Ichigo about FGT, he would have never even heard of such a technique. Isshin clearly said their zan spirit keeps that information hidden.

If the spirit is unwilling to tell you the information, then how do you expect Isshin to know of the technique?

Logic says he has been told by someone.



There is no such thing as another release than Bankai. As a matter of fact, the Vandenreich are stealing what? Bankai's. As a matter of fact, what Bankai's do we have yet to see? The Top-tier characters. As a matter of fact, have you seen Yamamoto's Bankai?

Bankai is the final resort of a Shinigami - Shunsui Kyoraku.
There are 2 releases; Shikai & Bankai - Yoruichi Shihoin

Bankai is the final release. There is no such thing as after Bankai. Nor is there a need.


Every character talks from his/her knowledge but that doesn't mean every single character are informed of everything. Hence, the knowledge of a further release could very well be a secrete and only given to select people.

Time will tell.

[harahara]

Without Isshin telling Ichigo about FGT, he would have never even heard of such a technique. Isshin clearly said their zan spirit keeps that information hidden.

If the spirit is unwilling to tell you the information, then how do you expect Isshin to know of the technique?

Logic says he has been told by someone.

Or simply because Ichigo had not went inside his inner world during Bankai, that's why he did not know about FGT? On the other hand, Isshin is a full fledged Shinigami and obviously used Jinzen multiple times, thus the interaction between Isshin & Engetsu was leagues stronger than Tenza Zangetsu and Ichigo.

While a "3rd party informed Isshin about FGT" is always a possibility, it's still doubtful, and logic simply states that Isshin got ahold of the FGT information due to his interaction with his Engetsu, which is obviously leagues stronger than that of Ichigo & Zangetsu.


Every character talks from his/her knowledge but that doesn't mean every single character are informed of everything. Hence, the knowledge of a further release could very well be a secrete and only given to select people.

Time will tell.

Shunsui is one of the oldest & highly experienced Shinigami's around, same applies to Yoruichi. It's safe to assume that both Shunsui & Yoruichi are right, and only Shikai & Bankai are the releases a Shinigami can use. Especially with the Vandenreich fuss over Bankais and going to the extent of stealing them, only reinforces that Bankai's are the last resort of a Shinigami.

[Kurogasa]

I don't understand how anyone could read Isshin's dialog and conclude that it's impossible for him to know FGT.



http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/45-408.0/compressed/s19.jpg?v=11278206950


http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/45-409.0/compressed/k409.0.14.jpg?v=11277439857

"Watch out Ichigo...this time Zangetsu might get violent!"

"My Engetsu was the same way."

"These guys don't want to teach us this technique. You'll soon see why."

I mean, to me, all you have to do is think through the logic of the thoughts he presents. How did he know that Zangetsu would probably become violent? Because his Engetsu was the same way. Same way when? When he did what Ichigo was doing at the time: attempting to learn FGT. However, Engetsu, much like Zangetsu, did not want to teach him the attack. Why? Because he would end losing his shinigami powers if he used it.

Now, the 64-million-dollar question: If FGT is anything other than a shinigami zanpakutou technique (like a "transcendant" tech), then why would Engetsu even put up resistance and throw a tantrum to begin with? Isshin is a regular shinigami; he wouldn't have the ability to learn it even if Engetsu wanted to teach him! It's like going and asking someone for a million dollars and having them respond "I don't want to give it to you" when they don't even have the money to give you even if they would be willing to give it to you. It makes no sense to me. If FGT were literally impossible for Isshin to learn, then Engetsu would have said "It's impossible for you to learn...it's not that you're not good enough or committed enough, it's literally not possible for you learn because you don't have a raging hollow soul inside of you."...which wouldn't make sense anyway, considering that Getsuga is a zan technique, so I can't see why the power being hybrid as opposed to just shinigami makes any difference in either case.

The fact that Isshin was able to attempt to learn the technique and the fact that Engetsu did not want to teach it to him means that he is theoretically capable of learning it. It's implicit in the logic of the situation and the interactions of the parties. Isshin has to have something to ask for in order to ask for it, and Engetsu has to have something to give in order to not want to give it. The only part that is unclear is whether or not Isshin succeeded, and I feel like this unknown is being blown out of proportion in an attempt to corroborate arguments to the opposite.

Unless one is going to argue that Isshin is a shinigami-hollow hybrid, then I don't see how the notion that FGT is a hybrid technique holds any water.

[bliz]

Or simply because Ichigo had not went inside his inner world during Bankai, that's why he did not know about FGT? On the other hand, Isshin is a full fledged Shinigami and obviously used Jinzen multiple times, thus the interaction between Isshin & Engetsu was leagues stronger than Tenza Zangetsu and Ichigo.

While a "3rd party informed Isshin about FGT" is always a possibility, it's still doubtful, and logic simply states that Isshin got ahold of the FGT information due to his interaction with his Engetsu, which is obviously leagues stronger than that of Ichigo & Zangetsu.


Your contradicting Isshin's statement. Isshin said 3 things in his statement.

1. Zangetsu will go wild like his Engetsu
2. The spirit will not willingly tell you about FGT
3. Indicated there is a neg side-effect to using the technique

Now do some maths............

Why would Isshin's spirit go mad at him if Engetsu was willing to tell Isshin about FGT in the first place?

Clearly someone told Isshin about FGT and he tried to learn it which upset Engetsu. Whether he succeeded or not in learning the technique is unknown at this point in time.



Shunsui is one of the oldest & highly experienced Shinigami's around, same applies to Yoruichi. It's safe to assume that both Shunsui & Yoruichi are right, and only Shikai & Bankai are the releases a Shinigami can use.


Shunsui is old but no where near old as the oldest of shinigamis. And even then while ranked high in SS, he wouldn't have access to information like a noble family would (this where Yoruichi comes in) but even a noble family is insignificant when it comes to the royal realm.

The information about FGT/a further release maybe can only be found in the royal realm.

[TheMeatPuppet]

GodAizen's and FGTIchigo's sword fusion.

[Herakles]

GodAizen's and FGTIchigo's sword fusion.
Aizen transcended the boundaries of Hollows and Shinigami and was apparently too cocky to even use Shikai against Ichigo, whom was in Bankai and then used the FGT.

Which is what we're discussing, is the FGT a level beyond Bankai?

[Tom2rules]

GodAizen's sword fusion

Aizen's multiple transformations honestly have really nothing to do with this conversation or thread in general.

The Hogyoku was from the start the source of Aizen's transformations, as it compelled to his master's wish to become something beyond both shinigami and hollows. But this was Aizen's wish, and something that the Hogyoku itself provided. That last transformation that saw his Zanpakuto fused with his hand was once again the Hogyoku's attempt to grant Aizen's wish and nothing something Aizen displayed by his own power.

Aizen never displayed anything beyond what a shinigami could do by himself, there was only the Hogyoku. At the moment, Aizen has only displayed his shikai and that is all. He never showed his bankai (due to his hogyoku transformations) and nothing between him and his Zanpakuto.

Everything we saw from Aizen's transformations were basically artifical, creations that may be impossible for a real shinigami (anyway, his transformations were much closer to a hollow anyway...)

[Andygoesrawr]

It's not necessary to say the name of the bankai (though it's unclear if the naming rule applies to bankai and shikai releases just like with attacks)

But Tousen didn't use bankai, he used Resurreccion. Every Resurreccion used in the manga has been used with a release command and then named.

Yes. And Tosen did not use a release command. That is what I was saying.

Before you say "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" is the release command: all release commands contain Hiragana after the Kanji (if there is any Kanji). That's how verbs are formatted in Japanese, and it's a requirement. There was no release command.


You get no reward for a baseless assumption.

I'm afraid you misunderstood. I was sarcastically saying that you should have a reading comprehension award for being entirely unable to read my post properly. Fortunately, it's happened again, so you have another chance!

- - - Updated - - -


I don't understand how anyone could read Isshin's dialog and conclude that it's impossible for him to know FGT.

The point is not that somebody can read the dialogue and think that it's not possible for Isshin to know FGT, it's the fact that it has not been stated. Regardless of how logically sound your deductions are, they are absolute conjecture. Isshin attempted to learn FGT. Engetsu didn't want to teach it to him. That is all we know. No more.

Besides, the most interesting fact here is that Isshin said "Engetsu". That is the name of his Shikai. Ichigo learned FGT from Tensa Zangetsu.

[harahara]

Your contradicting Isshin's statement. Isshin said 3 things in his statement.

1. Zangetsu will go wild like his Engetsu
2. The spirit will not willingly tell you about FGT
3. Indicated there is a neg side-effect to using the technique

Now do some maths............

Why would Isshin's spirit go mad at him if Engetsu was willing to tell Isshin about FGT in the first place?

Clearly someone told Isshin about FGT and he tried to learn it which upset Engetsu. Whether he succeeded or not in learning the technique is unknown at this point in time.

Isshin's spirit was never stated to go "mad at Isshin" - violent? Yes. Did not want to teach him due to the power less consequence? Yes. As I said, it is a possibility that someone else told Isshin about FGT, but it's safe to assume Isshin learnt about it through years of training, rather than pulling ideas out of thin air "Royal Guard with the beard looks knowledgeable about Jinzen...so he knows about FGT...makes sense" - that's just ridiculous given the facts that we have at hand.


Shunsui is old but no where near old as the oldest of shinigamis. And even then while ranked high in SS, he wouldn't have access to information like a noble family would (this where Yoruichi comes in) but even a noble family is insignificant when it comes to the royal realm.

The information about FGT/a further release maybe can only be found in the royal realm.

Shunsui is the oldest Shinigami in Soul Society at the moment with Ukitake (if Unohana is truly dead). From where are you getting that the FGT is a technique related only to the Royal Realm?? :confused: That's just baseless speculation.

But what we do know as a fact; is that Isshin Shiba's close family is tied with the Getsuga technique.

[Zeta Kizzy]

I've been lurking in this thread and reading with amusement twinkling in my eyes at some of the responses, but I'm pretty sure for shinigami there is nothing after bankai. Perhaps your bankai will evolve and become more complete as you learn more about it over time, but it will always remain a bankai. The way I see it, the FGT is just another tech for TZ. One with dire consequences but a tech of TZ nonetheless.

Andy, the only reason Ichigo learned it from Tensa Zangetsu is because he was in bankai already. There isn't much difference between Zangetsu and Tensa Zangetsu besides their appearances. They're the same spirit. Isshin said Engetsu for plot purposes. We did not even know his zanpakuto's name until that moment. Did you think Kubo was just gonna tell us right off the bat the name of his bankai? You're right. We don't know if Isshin actually learned it but it is clear that he has breached the subject with Engetsu. While you say that Engetsu didn't want to teach Isshin, neither did Tensa. However, he eventually relented and told Ichigo. Who's to say that Engetsu didn't do the same? There is nothing pointing to Isshin not knowing the technique but there's certainly enough to assume he does know it and is capable of it. Why is there even resistance to that subject? Are we trying to place the FGT on some pedestal when all it is a tech of Ichigo's bankai?

This all makes me wonder if all zanpakuto have a sort of "final" attack.

[Herakles]

Besides, the most interesting fact here is that Isshin said "Engetsu". That is the name of his Shikai. Ichigo learned FGT from Tensa Zangetsu.

http://puu.sh/2NPjr.jpghttp://puu.sh/2NPk4.jpg
Isshin did refer to the fact that Zangetsu would behave the same way his Engetsu did.

I don't see why Isshin's Bankai spirit wouldn't teach him the FGT, perhaps Kubo withdrew from naming Isshin's Bankai at that current point in time. All Shinigami should have differing spirits when using Jinzen in unreleased/Shikai and Bankai.

They're named differently after all.

[Chimera Cord]

Yes. And Tosen did not use a release command. That is what I was saying.

Before you say "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" is the release command: all release commands contain Hiragana after the Kanji (if there is any Kanji). That's how verbs are formatted in Japanese, and it's a requirement. There was no release command.



I'm afraid you misunderstood. I was sarcastically saying that you should have a reading comprehension award for being entirely unable to read my post properly. Fortunately, it's happened again, so you have another chance!

It's the only Resurreccion we have seen being used by a Shinigami (Vizard)

So, still an assumption.

[Andygoesrawr]

It's the only Resurreccion we have seen being used by a Shinigami (Vizard)

So, still an assumption.

Exactly...

The argument you made was that Ichigo would have had to use a release command and say the name of his Resurreccion in order to enter Resurreccion. I then said that Tosen did not use a release command. He is a Vizard. Ichigo is a Vizard. Tosen is the only Vizard we know for sure has entered Resurreccion, and he did not use a release command. Therefore release commands are not required for Vizards to enter Resurreccion. Therefore Ichigo would not need to use a release command to enter Resurreccion.

The only assumption here was made by you saying that Ichigo would need to use a release command and say the name of his Resurreccion in order to enter it. I then provided facts which prove that wrong.

But nice try ;)

[jofosho999]

I've been lurking in this thread and reading with amusement twinkling in my eyes at some of the responses, but I'm pretty sure for shinigami there is nothing after bankai. Perhaps your bankai will evolve and become more complete as you learn more about it over time, but it will always remain a bankai. The way I see it, the FGT is just another tech for TZ. One with dire consequences but a tech of TZ nonetheless.

Andy, the only reason Ichigo learned it from Tensa Zangetsu is because he was in bankai already. There isn't much difference between Zangetsu and Tensa Zangetsu besides their appearances. They're the same spirit. Isshin said Engetsu for plot purposes. We did not even know his zanpakuto's name until that moment. Did you think Kubo was just gonna tell us right off the bat the name of his bankai? You're right. We don't know if Isshin actually learned it but it is clear that he has breached the subject with Engetsu. While you say that Engetsu didn't want to teach Isshin, neither did Tensa. However, he eventually relented and told Ichigo. Who's to say that Engetsu didn't do the same? There is nothing pointing to Isshin not knowing the technique but there's certainly enough to assume he does know it and is capable of it. Why is there even resistance to that subject? Are we trying to place the FGT on some pedestal when all it is a tech of Ichigo's bankai?

This all makes me wonder if all zanpakuto have a sort of "final" attack.

I think what a lot of people are trying to say is that Ichigo's final attack, FGT, or Mugetsu if you want to get all technical about is, is just unique to him. The nature of his bankai, and his abilities, is different from everyone else. In this case, Ichigo's final attack is FGT, a modified final bankai form that is a "dimension" above his normal bankai state in power. It's unique to him..and Isshin as well. Byakuya had his final attack when he used it against Ichigo, where he puts all his pedals into one swing and attack. Yama's north attack would be considered his final and most powerful ability. However..there is a possibility that there is an attack for all shinigamis to use where they use all their powers and lose them. If that were the case, I would say that's an ability above bankai so I don't think there's a final attack for all shinigamis to use that will make them lose their powers. It's just unique to Ichigo.

[pirateaddict]

At the moment I can only assume it’s an extension of his bankai, but still a bankai ability nonetheless. If it was anything different then why does Isshin also have the same ability? Of course we’d know more if we’d actually seen Isshin perform it but I suspect that Kubo has deliberately not done that and we’ll see it during this upcoming battle.

I’m still puzzled as to how Isshin found out and why he didn’t tell Ichigo but instead told him to go talk to Zangetsu and find out for himself. Although having said that it probably was for the best that he found out for himself. Isshin obviously fought his own zan to get the information, and yet as far as we know he hasn’t used it.
http://i15.mangapanda.com/bleach/409/bleach-2399987.jpg
http://i32.mangapanda.com/bleach/409/bleach-2399989.jpg
Tensa Zangetsu was determined for Ichigo not to find out and it was Ichigo himself who finally figured out what had to happen and let go of his zan. By accepting the blade he absorbs TZ and gains the knowledge of FGT. Tensa Zangetsu said that FGT is a technique and can only be absorbed into Ichigo by Tensa Zangetsu himself. The fact that he calls it a technique pretty much confirms that it’s connected to the shinigami’s ability to wield the zan.
http://i19.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399497.jpg
http://i36.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399499.jpg

When we see Ichigo after he finishes his training his zan is fused to his arm.
http://i31.mangapanda.com/bleach/417/bleach-2399611.jpg
Later on we learn that FGT means he becomes getsuga itself. Mugetsu is the name of his attack. At that point he is a transcendent.
http://i39.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399501.jpg
http://i15.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399503.jpg
http://i23.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399505.jpg
http://i7.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399507.jpg
http://i28.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399511.jpg

All of this leads me to believe that although he’s gone beyond the barrier of being a shinigami and a hollow, it’s still his zan abilities that give him his final attack. So in that sense, yes it is a part of his bankai, in other words, the final release of his bankai.

[bliz]

Isshin's spirit was never stated to go "mad at Isshin" - violent? Yes. Did not want to teach him due to the power less consequence? Yes. As I said, it is a possibility that someone else told Isshin about FGT, but it's safe to assume Isshin learnt about it through years of training, rather than pulling ideas out of thin air "Royal Guard with the beard looks knowledgeable about Jinzen...so he knows about FGT...makes sense" - that's just ridiculous given the facts that we have at hand.


Just two simple questions:

1. How did Isshin know of FGT if Engetsu never told him about it?

Isshin clearly said that information is kept hidden. For Isshin to even attempt to learn it, he needs to know such a technique is possible in the first place.

Whats his source of information?

2. Why would Engetsu get mad/violent/wild (depending on the translation) at Isshin if he/she willingly told Isshin about FGT?


I am shocked you keep arguing back even when I pointed out the contradictions in your argument.

[Locke]

So, maybe more of a crack theory, but I'll just throw this out there.

What if there is no true "Final Getsuga Tenshou" and that Isshin made it up?

What if, knowing Ichigo's heritage, Isshin knew of the Quincy Final Form? To subconsciously get him to draw it out and combine his Quincy powers, he made up a story about the FGT, knowing about the Quincy Final Form. I would assume there also has to be some form of synchronization with one's Zanpakuto, for sure, which is why Jinzen was required.

And kind of a funny secondary thought...

When Ichigo first gained (and regained) his powers, he was stabbed through the heart with reiatsu, similar to how Ishida regained his powers (though, Ishida's was more "precise" by Ryuuken 6cm from the heart, I think?).

What if there is no FGT -- but Isshin knew that Ichigo's powers thusfar were all just a manifestation/interpretation of his Quincy heritage -- and not "authentic" Shinigami powers. There is, however, a Quincy Final Form, that Ichigo could have manifested and defeated Aizen with. Like his "Shinigami" powers, though, it manifested in something that one would imagine a Shinigami may appear as in a final form.

Maybe that's what the discussion between Urahara and Isshin was about, in regards to Ichigo's future. Maybe Isshin wanted to raise Ichigo as a human and not have to worry about conflicts in the spiritual world? Just let him have a normal life. Using the final Quincy technique would remove all of his reiatsu and make that possible. Maybe it was a promise he had made to Masaki -- to keep the kids away from both of their respective pasts?

That being said, there is certainly more to Isshin than meets the eye. Even if he was the former squad 10 captain, he still had enough reiatsu to punt Aizen with the flick of a finger. None of the other captains could cause Aizen to bat an eyelash. So who knows -- maybe it's a Shiba clan technique, and something they were working on to get them into the Royal Realm -- a final Shinigami technique?

[Kurogasa]

The point is not that somebody can read the dialogue and think that it's not possible for Isshin to know FGT, it's the fact that it has not been stated. Regardless of how logically sound your deductions are, they are absolute conjecture. Isshin attempted to learn FGT. Engetsu didn't want to teach it to him. That is all we know. No more.


But why should Kubo be obligated to spell out every single thing down to the absolute letter? I think he should be able to strongly hint something and expect us to catch on, and I don't think it's unreasonable for him to expect us to be able to read signs.

When you make a statement, there are often things that go unsaid, because they are understood to be true in order for you to make the statement; it may be 'conjecture' or an 'assumption', but you are forced to make that assumption in order for the statement to actually MEAN anything.

In order for Engetsu to not want to teach it to him, he has to have something to teach. Would you say "I don't want to sell you my car" if you had no car to sell? The fact that you have a car is understood in the statement; if you don't have a car, it doesn't matter how you feel about selling it, because you have no car to sell. In order for how you feel about it to be relevant enough to actually state, a reasonable person can only assume that you have a car. Or if you said to me "I want to make renovations to my house," then it's understood that you have a house to renovate; you don't say it, but you don't have to, because it's implicit in the statement. I's not blind conjecture; it's an underpinning that the reader or listener has to assume to be true in order for the statement to be meaningful and make a lick of sense. The argument that it 'hasn't been stated' isn't a valid one to me; it comes across as a cop out.

[Chimera Cord]

Exactly...

The argument you made was that Ichigo would have had to use a release command and say the name of his Resurreccion in order to enter Resurreccion. I then said that Tosen did not use a release command. He is a Vizard. Ichigo is a Vizard. Tosen is the only Vizard we know for sure has entered Resurreccion, and he did not use a release command. Therefore release commands are not required for Vizards to enter Resurreccion. Therefore Ichigo would not need to use a release command to enter Resurreccion.

The only assumption here was made by you saying that Ichigo would need to use a release command and say the name of his Resurreccion in order to enter it. I then provided facts which prove that wrong.

But nice try ;)

Yeah, but Ichigo would still need to name his Resurreccion so you spent all that time proving a meaningless point.

So, no, FGT wasn't a Resurreccion because Ichigo did not name it when he entered the form.

[Zeta Kizzy]

Just two simple questions:

1. How did Isshin know of FGT if Engetsu never told him about it?

Isshin clearly said that information is kept hidden. For Isshin to even attempt to learn it, he needs to know such a technique is possible in the first place.

Whats his source of information?

2. Why would Engetsu get mad/violent/wild (depending on the translation) at Isshin if he/she willingly told Isshin about FGT?


I am shocked you keep arguing back even when I pointed out the contradictions in your argument.

Where was it stated that Engetsu never told him about it? The most Isshin said was that Engetsu didn't want to teach him how to do it. Why does some 3rd party need to have told Isshin about his own zanpakuto? Why is this even an assumption? It's based on absolutely zero facts. There is nothing telling us that Isshin asked around for an ability that his own zanpakuto has. While there is also none telling us that he didn't there is nothing there for us to assume that he did. You're really reaching with this one. Usually the simplest answer is the correct one.

[Mcnubins]

I think for Ichigo there is or will be. Not the FGT, but something else. Something totally new and intrinsic to him due to his super hybridness. He is a representative of every race now; hollow, human, fullbringer (not sure if it really qualifies), shinigami and Quincy. That is likely the reason the Soul King has such an interest in him. I think we are seeing the set up for him to become the lightning rod for the SK to disappear or something equally drastic. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned into the new SK. As far as normal zans go, no, I do not believe there is anything after bankai. We keep applying rules to Ichigo that are only normally applied to one race (or were never really stated in the first place) when he is, in point of fact, something wholly different. The nature of Ichigo is fluid and ever changing. Ichigo's race should be changed to "amalgam".

[bliz]

Where was it stated that Engetsu never told him about it? The most Isshin said was that Engetsu didn't want to teach him how to do it. Why does some 3rd party need to have told Isshin about his own zanpakuto? Why is this even an assumption? It's based on absolutely zero facts. There is nothing telling us that Isshin asked around for an ability that his own zanpakuto has. While there is also none telling us that he didn't there is nothing there for us to assume that he did. You're really reaching with this one. Usually the simplest answer is the correct one.

This is (assumed) to be the accurate translation for Chapter 409, page 14:

by cnet128 from manga helper


14
Isshin: It was just the same... // ...with my own "Engetsu".
[TN: "Razor Moon"]
Isshin: Our blades... // ...don't like teaching us this particular technique. // You'll soon... // ...find out why.

Why would Engetsu tell Isshin about FGT if that above line is true?


The question isn't "how to do it" as you claim but giving the information in the first place.

[harahara]

Just two simple questions:

1. How did Isshin know of FGT if Engetsu never told him about it?

Isshin clearly said that information is kept hidden. For Isshin to even attempt to learn it, he needs to know such a technique is possible in the first place.

Whats his source of information?

2. Why would Engetsu get mad/violent/wild (depending on the translation) at Isshin if he/she willingly told Isshin about FGT?


I am shocked you keep arguing back even when I pointed out the contradictions in your argument.

Who said that Engetsu never told Isshin about the FGT? You're just making assumptions out of thin air. All that Isshin ever stated was that their Zanpakto's don't want to teach them the ability due to the consequences. There's a difference between Engetsu not wanting to teach Isshin and Engetsu not wanting to talk to Isshin about the FGT.

We have no idea if Tensa Zangetsu would or would have not old Ichigo about the FGT since Ichigo never went inside his realm during Bankai mode. There was no interaction between Ichigo and his Bankai inner world at all.

All that was ever implied is that Zangetsu/Engetsu would not teach their users the FGT in the easiest manner.

Your logic is literally " Without the intervention of someone else...Isshin would have never known about FGT .. " Wait..what about the relentless training of years upon years to perfect your harmony with your Zanpakto, you think your Zanpakto would still not teach everything after fulling mastering/accepting your Zanpakto?

Or are you saying that Isshin is an amateur Shinigami like Ichigo and has a weak relationship between him and his Engetsu. Or are you saying that Isshin did not train with this Engetsu 'long enough' to learn about the FGT?

Your logic is baseless at this point of time, while of course it is always a possibility that someone else informed Isshin about the FGT, right now with the facts given at hand, it is safe to assume that Isshin learnt about the technique himself.

[Zeta Kizzy]

This is (assumed) to be the accurate translation for Chapter 409, page 14:

by cnet128 from manga helper



Why would Engetsu tell Isshin about FGT if that above line is true?


The question isn't "how to do it" as you claim but giving the information in the first place.

Are you really arguing semantics right now? Is that what is really happening? There's a difference between teaching him and letting him know it exist. You misunderstood me anyway. I'm talking about your baseless claim that Engetsu didn't tell Isshin about it and that he sought help elsewhere first.

And again... WHERE WAS IT STATED THAT ENGETSU DID NOT TELL ISSHIN ABOUT IT? You haven't shown me that. You've shown me a sentence that says that Engetsu didn't like teaching it. So? Engetsu didn't want to teach it. Doesn't mean he didn't tell Isshin about its existence. Until you can firmly say that someone let Isshin in on a little secret his zanpakuto has, then there is no reason that Isshin, someone who is probably very close to his zanpakuto (has to be in order to achieve bankai), would not have figured it out on his own or breached the topic with Engetsu himself.

[bliz]

@harahara

This is how Isshin and Engetsu inner discussion went

Engetsu: Today Isshin I will tell you about a secrete technique?
Isshin: Go on....
Engetsu: Its too risky
Isshin: Come on now. It can't be that bad.
Engetsu: Well............you see.....there is this technique............where
Isshin: ..........and?
Engetsu: Well basically its final getsuga tensho, the last and strongest getsuga tensho
Isshin: How do I do it?
Engetsu:...........you idiot, its too risky, and I will not teach it to you
Isshin: Seriously, whats so bad about FGT?
Engetsu: We will not discuss that topic any further and I will not teach you that technique.
Isshin: Then why the hell did you bring up that discussion if you are not going to teach me that technique?


I rest my case.

Go and read Kurogasa's post:



When you make a statement, there are often things that go unsaid, because they are understood to be true in order for you to make the statement; it may be 'conjecture' or an 'assumption', but you are forced to make that assumption in order for the statement to actually MEAN anything.


If Engetsu doesn't want to teach FGT to Isshin, then he/she will have never informed Isshin about FGT in the first place.

This is called logical deduction.



And again... WHERE WAS IT STATED THAT ENGETSU DID NOT TELL ISSHIN ABOUT IT? You haven't shown me that. You've shown me a sentence that says that Engetsu didn't like teaching it.


Answer is in my reply to @harahara. I suggest you read Kurogasa's post as well.



You misunderstood me anyway. I'm talking about your baseless claim that Engetsu didn't tell Isshin about it and that he sought help elsewhere first.


Its not baseless but built on a logical deduction.

[harahara]

The logic with this guy...

So Bliz tell me, if Tenza Zangetsu did not want to teach Ichigo FGT...why the fuck did he teach him then?

[bliz]

The logic with this guy...

So Bliz tell me, if Tenza Zangetsu did not want to teach Ichigo FGT...why the fuck did he teach him then?

Tensa Zangetsu was left with no choice since Ichigo already learnt such a technique was possible from Isshin.

[harahara]

Tensa Zangetsu was left with no choice since Ichigo already learnt such a technique was possible from Isshin.

Wrong answer.

Ichigo accepted Tensa Zangetsu and so TZ taught him the technique.

Can the same be applied to Isshin - one of the strongest guys around -? You bet your sweet ass it does apply. Unless you think Isshin is an amateur, then please don't even reply.

[Tom2rules]

When it comes to Tensa and Ichigo, the situation brought this technique forth.

The situation at hand forced Tensa into teaching the technique to Ichigo (as Ichigo would not stop until he taught him the move and eventually had to accept Tensa), if he had any other choice he likely would have told Ichigo that or if this was another situation that was not as dire, he would have told Ichigo to f@ck off and go take a nap or something.

When it comes to Engetsu teaching Isshin the technique or even speaking of it, we need a suitable reason for it, which at the moment we have none. Saying that Engetsu did or didn't tell Isshin about the move depends on what happened back then, which we have no idea what it was.

We need to know the situation behind all of this before we can make guesses on how Isshin learned the technique, as Engetsu would never have done it if Isshin hadn't had a reason to force his hand.

[Elementalist]

Guys, just a friendly reminder not to get too heated with this discussion. :p

[bliz]

Wrong answer.

Ichigo accepted Tensa Zangetsu and so TZ taught him the technique.

Can the same be applied to Isshin - one of the strongest guys around -? You bet your sweet ass it does apply. Unless you think Isshin is an amateur, then please don't even reply.

I have made my point ample clear and given a sound evidence for it. Its obvious who has flaw in their argument and I will not further iterate my point.

Its also evident your derailing the original argument. The argument wasn't if Isshin learnt FGT (hence if "same applied to Isshin" as your saying) but who informed Isshin about FGT in the first place.

[harahara]

You're right Bliz, it's impossible for Isshin to master his Zanpakto by himself. It was obviously the Monk Bearded Royal Guard that taught him, because he looks familiar with Jinzen. Ji in Japanese is beard and Zen is monk. Perfect sense.

[athe_light]

This is (assumed) to be the accurate translation for Chapter 409, page 14:

14
Isshin: It was just the same... // ...with my own "Engetsu".
[TN: "Razor Moon"]
Isshin: Our blades... // ...don't like teaching us this particular technique. // You'll soon... // ...find out why.

by cnet128 from manga helper


I think the WHY part of their respective Zans didn't want to teach them is the important part.

Zangetsu only told Ichigo WHY he didn't want to teach him AFTER Ichigo had accepted his blade.
Because the Zanpakutou's spirit will disappear after the usage of its ultimate technique (if I'm not mistaken).

So I'm assuming Engetsu's situation might be the same. He only told Isshin the reason AFTER he tought Isshin FGT.

To me FGT is another form of mastery; not fighting as a tool (shikai) or a duo (bankai), but to completely become one with them.

[pirateaddict]

You really shouldn't compare Isshin and Ichigo, their relationships with their zans are on a totally different level. Look at the argument between Ichigo and TZ.
http://i3.mangapanda.com/bleach/410/bleach-2399921.jpg
http://i3.mangapanda.com/bleach/410/bleach-2399923.jpg
http://i11.mangapanda.com/bleach/410/bleach-2399925.jpg
http://i19.mangapanda.com/bleach/410/bleach-2399927.jpg
The source of his despair:
http://i40.mangapanda.com/bleach/410/bleach-2399933.jpg
http://i16.mangapanda.com/bleach/410/bleach-2399935.jpg
http://i4.mangapanda.com/bleach/411/bleach-2399873.jpg
http://i36.mangapanda.com/bleach/411/bleach-2399875.jpg
Ichigo comes to realise that Shirosaki and Zangetsu are one and same.
http://i20.mangapanda.com/bleach/411/bleach-2399877.jpg
http://i11.mangapanda.com/bleach/411/bleach-2399879.jpg
http://i7.mangapanda.com/bleach/411/bleach-2399881.jpg
http://i31.mangapanda.com/bleach/411/bleach-2399885.jpg
http://i15.mangapanda.com/bleach/411/bleach-2399887.jpg
He's always hated his hollow side, TZ teaches him that he must accept both. His anger is also because Ichigo didn't progress, he used Zangetsu but he didn't get to know him and find out more about him. Also TZ knows he does intend to use it, knowing that TZ will no longer exist. Of course he's going to fight him to keep the technique a secret, Ichigo however figures it out and gains FGT. At that point he only has the knowledge, if he hadn't actually gone ahead and used it then he would still have TZ and his powers.

Isshin on the other hand would have a better understanding and relationship with Engetsu. What we do know is that Engetsu was not happy to teach him the FGT. He may not have actually gained that knowledge but just knows the technique exists. Maybe they just had a massive argument about it and Isshin tells Engetsu to stop being a pain in the ass. Engetsu sighs and sits down and provides tea and biscuits and Isshin is all http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/In2Depp/Emoticons/allears.gif~original. Who the hell knows, we don't.

[Novembre Pleut]

Merging with your bankai spirit is clearly a level beyond bankai.

first step is to imprint a persona into a asuachi to create a zanpaktou
then give it enough time to utilize a shikai
then gain a relationship with it in order to subjugate it and get bankai
then finally remerge with it.

the last stage is somewhat reminiscent of what the arrancar do in re-obtaining the energy from their sealed swords back into themselves.

the final getsuga is almost like a one off resurrection alongside the letz stil.

clearly above a bankai.

if it was a bankai technique, it would require the user to be in bankai when using it but there's nothing to specify thisi s the case. The 'final stage could theoretically be used by anyone if taught by their zan spirit.