Masaki's Killer

[harahara]

According to a few Omake articles; it implies that Masaki's death was perhaps not done by Grand Fischer. If so is true, who do you think is behind it all?

**Grand Fischer does not remember Masaki or Ichigo.

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My translation to The Missing Link Project extract:
母、真咲が　命を　落とした　真の　理由ー
The true reason why mother Masaki was killed.

[Giusel]

Considering she's going to lose her powers, it's not unlikely that even Grand Fisher was able to kill her :/

[B. Haddrell]

I can`t answer that question but I have a strong feeling that the answer is linked to Whitey. It is an unproven theory of mine but I think it is possible that Whitey left Masaki after her death and went into Ichigo instead. No matter that Ichigo`s powers were dormant at that age, the reservoir was already there and that could have made Ichigo irresistible to Whitey.

If I am right, who might have an interest in it that something like this happens? One person is definitely Aizen. He created Whitey. He watched Ichigo from the very beginning. Aizen might have been frustrated that Whitey is stuck inside Masaki, unable to develop any further and Ichigo shows no sign of development either when it comes to powers. To get things going again Aizen might have used Grand Fisher to kill Masaki for him. If it is possible, Aizen prefers others to do the killing for him and this would definitely be in character.

Mayuri could be another possibility. If he knew of the special circumstances maybe he wanted Masaki to die so that he can collect her spirit body for his experiments. She would have been an interesting case for him.

The Vandenreich maybe had a motive as well to use Grand Fisher for killing Masaki. If they knew about the circumstances they might have hoped that the shock of losing his mother and the contact with Whitey might awaken Ichigo`s powers. That Ichigo turned eventually into a Shinigami and his Quincy powers stayed buried for quite a while longer was probably a disappointment.

[Latte]

When Isshin refers to 'That night' he could be refering to the first encounter they had. The events that transpires there could have had lead to a chain of events ending in Masaki's death. Also, we have to consider Isshin has yet to discover Aizen's treachery and plots (Although Urahara may have told him!)

I still believe the Grand Fisher is the culprit responsible, but I also believe it was under Aizen's orders. Grandfisher's interaction with Di-roy in the early manga hinted at a connection to the Arrancar army and the architecture was very reminiscent of the interal structure of Las Noches. As for Motive, Aizen requires Ichigo to grow in power for his 'transcendant plan' or whatever it was he was trying to do. Aizen being the scarily good manipulator and judge of character that he is might have had Masaki kiled to nuture Ichigo into a resolve driven defender lusting for power, power that would one day lead him right into Aizens clutches. Ichigo living the life of a normal human being does not benefit Aizen, so somethign ahd to be done to change his lifestyle.

[Darthsorrow]

Okay, it would have been better if the poll had multiple choices.

I picked Aizen as the main culprit. Two situations could have happen:

1.

If Masaki did lose her power, then Grand Fisher killed her under Aizens orders.

2.

If Masaki does not lose her power, Aizen will intervene and use paralyzing kidou and let Grand Fisher kill her.

Also, Isshins line means one thing:

Gin and Tousen most likely stopped Isshin for saving Masaki.

[Herakles]

Finally, thanks for making this harahara! :cool:

Now, after a few of us have been heavily discussing the truth behind Masaki's death in the Chapter 535 Discussion thread, we have made a few conclusions.


The Grandfisher was never in fact confirmed to be the true perpetrator behind Masaki's death.


Masaki's death has always been an equivocation, a half truth of sorts where Isshin and Ichigo drew their own conclusions as to whom killed their wife and mother.


As harahara presented in the OP, the One Thousand Year Blood War and the Missing Link Project releases pose a true meaning behind Masaki's death and apparently, who killed her.


As for the speculation aspect of this thread, I am considering two potential candidates behind Masaki's death. These people are Sosuke Aizen and Mayuri Kurotsuchi.

Concerning Aizen, the only reason I make this basis is because he specifically told Ichigo that he had known of him from the time he was born.
http://i3.mangapanda.com/bleach/397/bleach-2400527.jpghttp://i36.mangapanda.com/bleach/397/bleach-2400529.jpg

On top of that, Aizen even mentions in the same sources that he had been furthering Ichigo's developments and efforts the entire time. All Ichigo's battles had been a result of Aizen's own careful thinking, what's more is that we do know Ichigo had taken on the role of protecting anyone that needed him very seriously, from around the time Masaki died.

We also know that protection is Ichigo's motif. His power centralised and developed around his desire to protect anyone who needs him and Ichigo always wanted power to do this.
http://i12.mangapanda.com/bleach/475/bleach-2844099.jpghttp://i15.mangapanda.com/bleach/475/bleach-2844101.jpg

As for Mayuri, he is another viable candidate. Our crazy scientist made it very clear that the few Quincy who remained alive, had been watched by the Shinigami.
http://i29.mangapanda.com/bleach/123/bleach-1588176.jpg
We do not exactly know when his study on the Quincy ended, other than Souken being the finalisation of his studies.

Based on this, I believe these two men make the most logical candidates at this given time. Other than that, I fallaciously wishfully think Squad Zero or the Soul King had some involvement in killing Masaki.


Considering she's going to lose her powers, it's not unlikely that even Grand Fisher was able to kill her :/

What purpose would devouring the soul of a powerless human do for Grandfisher? http://i29.mangapanda.com/bleach/21/bleach-9403.jpg

The other element regarding Masaki's death and the Grandfisher, is that if he was devouring all these human souls with high spiritual energy; why did he not devour a helpless Ichigo lying unconscious under a dead Masaki as well? :confused:

Just some food for thought there. :cool:

As far as the Vandenreich goes, I find no manga constructed deduction explaining why they would feel the need to kill Ichigo if they want him to join their army. Re-eduction or not, the true perpetrator behind Masaki's death is probably going to pay big time when Ichigo learns the truth. I find Yhwach would be making a dubious mistake if he had killed her for whatever reason.

[my2kb22]

First - Who ever it is it wouldn't be one of the VR's or bach...... bach'll use this reason to turn ichigo against the gotei13 and royal guard, so apparently bach knows someting.... to me its most probable that its one of the gotei13 members or the royal guard..... Second To me its not aizen...he is too obvious... so not aizen for me, he may have some "accidental" thing to do with the events with ichigo's birth but i really doubt kubo would go to aizen coz everybody expects it.... 3. Judging by what kubo intents to do.....Grand Fisher should be off the list...... Don kanonji could be a better candidate than him lols

I vote either G-13 or royal guard........

Thanks to harahara for this topic and the image........coz some people still think its "grand fisher duh!".... well it ain't... kubo would not state something like this if its GF...... its someone else

[Minerva]

I'm favouring Mayuri on this. When Souken was killed, Ishida looks to have been around the same age Ichigo was when Masaki died. It would not be difficult to see Mayuri waiting in the wings to have her soul brought to him -- with a bonus of Hollow that he had expected Isshin to haul back from the human world.

I doubt Aizen read the manual that it's important to traumatize the future protagonist by taking his mother away. This isn't Disney. I would favour Urahara above Aizen at this point; someone told Isshin that Masaki had been killed by Grand Fisher, and we know Urahara is active in the human world. Although for various reasons I don't see Urahara killing her directly; it would have to be a third party doing the actual deed.

[Herakles]

I doubt Aizen read the manual that it's important to traumatize the future protagonist by taking his mother away.

Despite this, he still would equate to the logical deductions as to who killed Masaki. Aside from that, I would agree - another pointed out that Aizen would be too obvious given what we do know.

I only maintain he makes the logical candidate. On the other hand, C46 have been another candidate that has played on my mind. They do have a twisted sense of justice.

[Sacred Knight]

While my preference is that it remains a simple situation where a powerless Masaki died protecting Ichigo from Grand Fisher, I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of twist with one caveat: I don't want Aizen having anything to do with it.

[Serocco]

In retrospect, it was rather weird how Ichigo wasn't given the chance to kill Grand Fisher. Maybe that's because it was somebody else who caused Masaki's death.

If it was Mayuri, that would automatically target him for death. There is no way Ichigo would wanna murder Mayuri if it turns out that he killed Masaki. The same is true for Aizen and Yhwach.

Since Kubo said that Mayuri and Aizen are two of his favorite characters (to write about), I don't think it's either of those.

[Andygoesrawr]

I think we may be making a mountain out of a molehill. This may be Kubo, but the simplest answer is usually the best one.

Let's look at what Kubo would gain in terms of story for each candidate:

1. Aizen: practically nothing. It would make Ichigo genuinely hate Aizen, and want to kill him. But Aizen is immortal, and Ichigo's already had his chance at that. Kubo would not use Aizen for something like this at this point, surely. If he wanted to do that then he should've done it back when Aizen was speaking to Ichigo about his father.

2. Urahara: it'd completely make him a villain. Doing this would take away any possibility of Urahara being a friend, and ultimately would completely destroy Ichigo. Urahara has always been shady, but Ichigo has stood with him for a long time. If Kubo wants Urahara as a main villain, his crime would be much larger than something like killing Masaki, which only really affects Ichigo. Plus, Urahara is helping Masaki. Seems strange that he'd just randomly kill her.

3. Royal Guard / Soul King: nothing. Why would they? That's just silly.

4. G13 Captain: depends on the person. I can't think of any characters who would really gain anything from it.

5. Mayuri: would make him a completely irrelevant villain. Why would Kubo suddenly decide to take what we know about Mayuri and just make it more relevant? It's not in Kubo's style to use a character who we know as somebody who is ruthless and enjoys killing Quincies to be ruthless and kill another Quincy. It's what we expect, and ultimately is terrible writing. Mayuri is not the kind of character to be relevant here.

6. Vandenreich: lots and lots. This option is the one that is not only the most relevant, but would be very beneficial to this arc. The Vandenreich are an enemy who just appeared out of nowhere, and we're suddenly expected to treat them as the most despicable enemies in existence. But what have they really done? Not much. We don't have a reason to care about them, and nor does Ichigo really. Beyond his whole "I must defend Soul Society" bullshit. We've seen before that this is not enough for Ichigo: after Aizen left Hueco Mundo, he didn't really have a reason to keep fighting beyond the fact that it was what Soul Society wanted. This weakened his character and nearly lead to his destruction. If the Vandenreich are found to be behind Masaki's death, Ichigo will have a reason to hate them, and we will have a reason to consider them to be actual pre-existing parts of the story. Part of the reason why the Fullbring arc is considered by a lot of people to be entirely unimportant is because the characters were created for that arc alone. They had not appeared before, and they had not affected anything in the story.

7. Grand Fisher: closure. Yeah, Kubo wouldn't really get much story from just saying that it was in fact the Grand Fisher who killed Masaki, but at least it would create closure for that aspect. Isshin got revenge. To have it be another character and then have Ichigo defeat them would be taking closure from Isshin, essentially taking a step backwards in character development for him.

So the most viable option to me is the Vandenreich. Specifically Juhabach. BUT, as I said, the simplest answer is usually the best one: Grand Fisher.

That being said I do hope it's the Vandenreich. The fact that it was specifically mentioned by Kubo in his interviews means that he intends to use it as an important device.

I guess I'm conflicted :) regardless, I chose the Vandenreich option.

[Minerva]

^ I tend to agree about Ichigo having had his bout with Aizen already. There's no point in going back to that point, which is where we would be if Ichigo wanted to take vengeance for her death on Aizen.

On the other hand, there is a certain benefit to it being Mayuri. Sure, we know he has it in for the Quincy, that's not new. This however makes it personal for Ichigo. If the goal here is to head Ichigo away from SS for some requisite Quincy training, this might do it. It would be nice for all of us to see Ichigo gain some new skills to use.

There is also the (admittedly slight) possibility that this might tie into whatever Mayuri discovered in HM in some way. Isshin initially said Masaki died 10 years ago, not 6. What happened 10 years ago? Something went wrong and she actually did go Hollow for a while? Cue Aizen doing something helpful for once?

[Serocco]

If there's such an issue over Grand Fisher not being the killer, why would it suddenly be... Grand Fisher all along?

There's more to it. Most likely, it's Yhwach. Maybe it would be overkill, since Ichigo already hates him anyay, but it would touch upon Yhwach's as-of-late mysterious past.

[Tom2rules]

Personally in my opinion, Grand Fisher was the one that ultimately killed Masaki, but he was not the true cause behind her death. He was simply the gun that ended her life, while there was another force that pulled that trigger.

I'm going with this idea because as Andygoesrawr said, at least having Grand Fisher as her killer does given some closer to that aspect of the case and Isshin did in fact avenge his wife that day. But it still gives us another aspect to go on, which is of course who was behind Grand Fisher giving the orders.

This of course gets in the way of Yhwach being the rignleader of course, because why would he send a hollow to do what one of his soldiers could have done instead? So that would mean that it would have been either Urahara or Aizen. But again, Aizen's ship has already sailed. Ichigo hates Aizen already, there is no reason to add any more wood to that fire. Urahara though...eh, there are already tons of 'Evil Urahara' theories out there so it wouldn't surprise me that much.

Still this is up in the air at the moment so anything could have happened really...

[harahara]

I also don't think Aizen had anything to do with it. We already had Aizen blabbering to Ichigo about how he was making him stronger & stronger and how Ichigo was at the palm of his hands. But he never mentioned anything about Masaki.

If anything, Aizen would've told Ichigo he was behind Grand Fischer to enrage Ichigo into reaching another higher power level. But he didn't, so I highly doubt Aizen ordered GF to kill Masaki.

[Seri55]

As someone said before, that GF didn't remember killing Masaki-so the questions that might need to be asked are: do hollows remember who they have eaten, or in other words do they just forget over time? Another question, could GF memory have been erased? As I have asked before, what was the purpose or motive in waiting this long in killing Masaki; and who would benefit the most from her death? Of course, some have said that it makes no sense for Aizen to have done it, because Ichigo already hates Aizen; and maybe Aizen got impatient with waiting to see his experiment progress. I tend to agree with the latter. Urahara would benefit from it also, because perhaps he might have figured that Ichigo wouldn't make progress in his powers if both parents were alive, and it could be seen as a hindrance. I do not think it was the Vanderich/Quincies, because if they was going to kill Masaki, why wait to kill her; it would have made more sense to kill her while she was infected or after she was healed versus after her marriage to Isshin and the birth of Ichigo. I am sure GF had a hand it - he is not free of being innocent in Masaki's death. My theory is that whoever else was pulling the strings, more than likely erased GF memory so that he will not be able to tell about the events, since he travels to the world of the living frequently. When Isshin killed GF, as stated before, he didn't appeared to be all that upset over GF versus being upset and mad at Aizen. Perhaps someone else saw what occurred that day, as well..I won't elaborate on that since it just might be dialogue filling up a page...But it could have been Aizen or his people or Urahara..I am more inclined to say it was the former versus the latter.

[Chimera Cord]

Even if Mayuri did it, Kubo's not going to make him the bad guy. Otherwise, Kubo never would have had Nemu say "Mayuri-sama would never do something wrong."

Right now we don't actually know why Mayuri was so interested in the Quincy that he had to test their powers in every conceivable way.



As for her actual death, I believe Mayuri used Grand Fisher to collect her spirit and bring it back to him for experimentation.

[Herakles]

I also don't think Aizen had anything to do with it. We already had Aizen blabbering to Ichigo about how he was making him stronger & stronger and how Ichigo was at the palm of his hands. But he never mentioned anything about Masaki.

If anything, Aizen would've told Ichigo he was behind Grand Fischer to enrage Ichigo into reaching another higher power level. But he didn't, so I highly doubt Aizen ordered GF to kill Masaki.

I agree, but based off his his elaboration at that point; it would make logical sense. But in terms of Aizen's characterisation and even in reflection to what Andy said, it would make more sense for another candidate to be at fault here.

Central 46 could even seem suspicious or at least someone from the Soul Society that is not Aizen, Gin, Tosen and Mayuri. This would probably push Ichigo over the edge to turn his back on the Soul Society for a time. :cool:

If Kubo wants to make the RG the antagonists, this would be a perfect chance to do so as well.

[KroLeXz]

The answer to this question is obvious - Ichigo killed he's own mother under the control of whitey.

And something must have triggered this - Aizen perhaps?

[Herakles]

The answer to this question is obvious - Ichigo killed he's own mother under the control of whitey.

And something must have triggered this - Aizen perhaps?

Yeah... No. This would create massive contradictions in the Omake release.
http://i48.tinypic.com/160egcz.png
This would just make Ichigo hate himself even more since he already blames himself for his own mother's death.

[Tom2rules]

Yeah, no offense to anyone but I think Ichigo has suffered enough in this department (Seeing how blaming himself has already made Ichigo shed his sunny attitude and adopt the scowling personality we all are familiar with) and a .revelation like that could easily break him in a manor we haven't seen before.

That would also lead to a hell of alot more questions, more then there needs to be...like if Ichigo was capable of being controled by whitey at a age such as that, why didn't the hollow do anything later on in his life?

Besides, the image of a possessed kid Ichigo killing his own mother...no...thats something I do not want.

[Seri55]

I guess sometimes its nice to go back and look at the crime scene for evidence--it looks to be night time or getting dark one..(Memories in the Rain). One panel shows Ichigo face down as it appears he is trying to grab the lure (the girl). But the next panel in question shows the sound of a train and Ichigo. Ichigo appears to have that crazed coming out of hollowification look on his face, or perhaps coming out of being unconscious, the next one shows him more alert and look at his mother,and the last one shows him looking in shock as his mother is on top of him. Masaki looks like she is holding him tightly and Ichigo hands are covered by Masaki's body. It is hard to determine point of entry of her wound. Once Masaki died, is probably when Isshin noticed and went to try to save her, but it was too late.. I am hoping it is someone else that is involved in Masaki's death. Perhaps, what happened at Masaki's death, is why Isshin reluctantly told Ichigo of his past or even trained him before the Arrancar arc...I pulling at strings trying to come up with something ..ugh..brain cells hurting


http://www.mangapanda.com/94-473-14/bleach/chapter-19.html

[KroLeXz]

I guess sometimes its nice to go back and look at the crime scene for evidence--it looks to be night time or getting dark one..(Memories in the Rain). One panel shows Ichigo face down as it appears he is trying to grab the lure (the girl). But the next panel in question shows the sound of a train and Ichigo. Ichigo appears to have that crazed coming out of hollowification look on his face, or perhaps coming out of being unconscious, the next one shows him more alert and look at his mother,and the last one shows him looking in shock as his mother is on top of him. Masaki looks like she is holding him tightly and Ichigo hands are covered by Masaki's body. It is hard to determine point of entry of her wound. Once Masaki died, is probably when Isshin noticed and went to try to save her, but it was too late.. I am hoping it is someone else that is involved in Masaki's death. Perhaps, what happened at Masaki's death, is why Isshin reluctantly told Ichigo of his past or even trained him before the Arrancar arc...I pulling at strings trying to come up with something ..ugh..brain cells hurting


http://www.mangapanda.com/94-473-14/bleach/chapter-19.html



Hichigo for lack of better words, is completely out of his control - he has attacked his own friends before and would have killed them if it wasn't for intervention. This time it was he's mother's love, hugging him - that brought him back..... it wouldn't have been he's fault directly - Ichigo would actually blame Aizen/Isshin/Kisuske... I would.

[silverquord]

Same reasoning as andygoesrawr (http://bleachasylum.com/showthread.php?688-Masaki-s-Killer&p=32196&viewfull=1#post32196), but I would actually prefer a VR + Aizen combo. Just because Kubo will have an opportunity to explore why Bach went for Aizen during the SS invasion. Aizen's pretty good at hiding his talents unless he wants people to know about them, and I don't think Bach can easily find out real ability info on him through normal means, even after Aizen was defeated during the FKT arc. Ichigo and Zaraki are just plain loud and noisy when they move, so it should be easier to gather information on them and pin them as war potential... for Aizen, its much harder. I don't think Bach merely chose Aizen coz he "almost" reached RR, or became a butterfly "transcendent", imho.

[Ichigo]

Either Aizen wanted to experiment with his "test subject."

or

Since the final arc is about the 1000 year blood war I think there is a strong possibility that the VR hunted her down for marrying a Shinigami. Possibly leaving her to be devoured by Grand Fisher.

I personally am leaning towards option 2 as I believe Kubo is going to tie Aizen's motives with the VR threat.

[MaskedOne]

From what I remember, when Ichigo came to the night Masaki died she had a slash on her back. Wouldn't that mean it wasnt a hollow? I mean hollows are known to be brutal I'm pretty sure her death would have been more horrific. The only person that I know who would do something like that is Aizen, in hopes that the event would make Ichigo stronger. It seems like its even foreshadowed by Kubo with the fact that Isshin was injured in the same manner.

My verdict: Aizen paralyzed her with that slash and she just bled out. Then he allowed GF to take her soul.

[Franco]

Like what's already been said these past three pages, I'm also of the opinion that it was Grand Fisher who killed Masaki directly, but with someone else pulling the strings from the shadows. And like what most everyone's already said, I believe the Master Puppeteer's none other than Aizen Sosuke himself.

Several things to consider about "that night" (you know the one):

1. Grand Fisher was there to set the hook and the line. Logically, there shouldn't be any reason for him to not set the sinker as well.
http://i22.mangareader.net/bleach/19/bleach-1586021.jpg

http://i38.mangareader.net/bleach/19/bleach-1586024.jpg

http://i6.mangareader.net/bleach/19/bleach-1586027.jpg

(Bleach 19)
It's clear as day here. Ichigo saw Grand Fisher, Masaki sensed Grand Fisher, Grand Fisher kills Masaki. While her back's too messy to draw any real conclusion (was that a shinigami's zanpaktou wound? Or a Hollow claw?), I think it's safe to assume that it was also Grand Fisher who delivered the killing blow, seeing as there was nobody else around then.

Now, of course it's also possible that this was a two-man job and Grand Fisher wasn't actually alone that night - hence making it possible that Masaki saw someone else (who Ichigo didn't see) instead of Grand Fisher. However, two problems arise because of this: a) Grand Fisher's personality alone (and maybe his lack of brain cells too) makes it next to impossible for anyone to stand working with him, Aizen or no, and; b) Grand Fisher doesn't remember who Masaki is. Which leads us to...

2. Grand Fisher doesn't remember who Masaki is.
http://i12.mangareader.net/bleach/23/bleach-1585994.jpg

http://i20.mangareader.net/bleach/23/bleach-1585995.jpg

http://i12.mangareader.net/bleach/23/bleach-1586000.jpg

(Bleach 23)
Well, there you have it, straight from the Fisher's mouth: his remake of Masaki's all based on memories he plucked right out of Ichigo's brain. Had it been a two-man job that did Masaki in, I'm pretty sure that'll be a night Grand Fisher wouldn't forget - some killings you just don't forget once you've done 'em with a buddy.

Him not remembering Masaki only means he was working alone that night and that she was just one of the many highly-spirited (in a manner of speaking) humans he'd devoured that week.

Another shady thing about him not remembering her also means he didn't pick her out as a target specifically. It may also point to the fact that he was led there by someone - coughcouchAizen???coughcough - before offing her.

3. Herakles brings up an important point:


What purpose would devouring the soul of a powerless human do for Grandfisher? http://i29.mangapanda.com/bleach/21/bleach-9403.jpg

The other element regarding Masaki's death and the Grandfisher, is that if he was devouring all these human souls with high spiritual energy; why did he not devour a helpless Ichigo lying unconscious under a dead Masaki as well? :confused:

Which means that this was a planned hit from the start. Not planned by Grand Fisher himself, definitely (he ain't too smart for the job, for one), but by someone else up there. And by up there, I don't mean God.

The three reasons I've outlined only point to one thing: Grand Fisher may have killed Masaki, but there was someone else pulling the strings. Ah, but with the past few pages saying the same things, who else thinks mine is an unoriginal thought? :p

As for who the string-puller actually was, my money's on Aizen. He may be irrelevant to the the plot right now (as he isn't the main villain anymore), but he's been monitoring Ichigo since Day One. With his frequent appearances in the current arc, we know he certainly wasn't bluffing. As such, I wouldn't put it past him to observe Ichigo even under all that rain the night his mother died. Another plus for Aizen's that he was hanging around Karakura even before Ichigo was born - heck, he was even responsible for turning Masaki into a Hollow in the first place. So why kill Masaki then? To give Ichigo a reason and a motivation to kick some unholy butt. This way, Aizen's effectively kickstarted the whole series - and for what? For science. (Well of course, he didn't just do it for science, but you see where I'm getting at.)

Juha Bach and the rest o' the Vandenreich are viable options too, but they have yet to make their appearances in the flashback arc, so any connection between them and the Kurosakis remains shady at best.

Mayuri is a rather puzzling suspect, to be honest. So far (and if I remember previous posts correctly), the reason Mayuri remains a suspect is because of his connection to the Quincy clan. It's true that the Quincy Studies is his pet project, but is it possible he's only done research on just one of the Quincy families?
http://i4.mangareader.net/bleach/530/bleach-3975735.jpg

(Bleach 530)
If Mama Ishida's speech is anything to go by, it seems the Kurosakis and the Ishidas are two separate, independent clans, even if they're all Quincies. She also mentions that Masaki's the last of her bloodline, making it possible for Mayuri to skim over her name during his Quincy Roll Call and devote his entire attention to the Ishida line. His connection to the Masaki-Grand Hollow case is sketchy at best and if someone else can provide a more aggressive set of reasons (heh), it'd be totally cool to take a look - unless the Mayuri connection's been properly-established already and I just missed out. :p

[NGC 602]

^That's a nice analysis of the suspects and I'd generally agree that Aizen looks to be the most likely candidate pulling the strings in the background. There's just one thing that makes me wonder just a little bit and that's the conversation that Aizen has with Ichigo immediately after he crashes into the FKT.

http://i34.mangapanda.com/bleach/388/bleach-2400921.jpghttp://i10.mangapanda.com/bleach/388/bleach-2400923.jpg

After that Aizen goes into his lengthy spiel about manipulating Ichigo's life and fights but he doesn't ever explicitly mention Masaki (or being responsible for her death) until Isshin takes a turn crashing the party. I know that this is in no way definitive proof or reason to think Aizen (lying liar who lies extraordinaire) didn't kill her. I just think it's a little odd that if Aizen really wanted to goad Ichigo into reaching for more power that he didn't go for the obvious emotional trigger. After all Aizen presumably was of the opinion that he was entering his end game so he wouldn't really have anything to lose revealing that information.

Like I said it's not really anything substantial or significant and you could always attribute Aizen being cagey/misleading/lying on the details to him being Aizen. :)

[DraMas26]

@Franco

I'd say Grand Fisher wanted to eat Masaki because he could sense White in her and White was a powerful Hollow. Maybe Grand Fisher thought he could obtain an easy way to evolve if he ate White who was supressed within Masaki?

As for who killed her, it's hard to say because Kubo left the list of options wide open. I even have this gut feeling that Masaki might have done something to kill herself. Like maybe she could sense Grand Fisher wanting to consume White so she did some suicide move to kill herself and White so Grand Fisher would go away not noticing Ichigo whose powers were still immature.

[Sariniste]

Franco, that's a really excellent analysis of the case. If you were the prosecuting attorney, you'd get points in my book for logic and plausibility. :D You almost convinced me...

However... I just think having Aizen behind it is too obvious. (Because Kubo loves surprises and twists.) And NGC 602 makes some very good points... why didn't Aizen go for that emotional trigger with Ichigo?

I admit I thought for a long time Aizen was behind it. After all, he experimented with Hollows and proved himself to be their leader... but then Kubo showed us those flashbacks where Aizen basically admitted being behind Hollows who could hide their reiatsu, etc. So why would he leave out that Aizen ordered Grand Fisher after Ichigo?

And DraMas, I agree it's hard to say who killed her because Kubo left it all so vague. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is one of the big reveals we will get later on... and I have a feeling it will be a shocker. I think it will be someone we know but would never have suspected.

[Herakles]

However... I just think having Aizen behind it is too obvious. (Because Kubo loves surprises and twists.) And [B]NGC 602 makes some very good points... why didn't Aizen go for that emotional trigger with Ichigo?
Unfortunately, in reflection of what Aizen has done, he does seem to be the most viable candidate given the information we do have. Mayuri can also be considered another strong one.


And DraMas, I agree it's hard to say who killed her because Kubo left it all so vague. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is one of the big reveals we will get later on... and I have a feeling it will be a shocker. I think it will be someone we know but would never have suspected.
I also agree, Kubo who has apparently been thinking and writing this arc up for a very long time, probably left specific things such as Masaki's death, as an equivocation to create more of a dramatic effect on Ichigo in the future.

As many have pointed out, revealing it was Aizen really wont accomplish much other than an Ichigo who is extremely angry at Aizen. However, has her death is completely vague to the point where nothing was ever confirmed or denied, only deduced, I think it will also be someone we know but would never have suspected.

Personally, I hope it to be someone that will push Ichigo over the edge to the extent where it makes him second guess and rethink everything he has done for everyone.

[Franco]

http://i34.mangapanda.com/bleach/388/bleach-2400921.jpghttp://i10.mangapanda.com/bleach/388/bleach-2400923.jpg

After that Aizen goes into his lengthy spiel about manipulating Ichigo's life and fights but he doesn't ever explicitly mention Masaki (or being responsible for her death) until Isshin takes a turn crashing the party. I know that this is in no way definitive proof or reason to think Aizen (lying liar who lies extraordinaire) didn't kill her. I just think it's a little odd that if Aizen really wanted to goad Ichigo into reaching for more power that he didn't go for the obvious emotional trigger. After all Aizen presumably was of the opinion that he was entering his end game so he wouldn't really have anything to lose revealing that information.

Like I said it's not really anything substantial or significant and you could always attribute Aizen being cagey/misleading/lying on the details to him being Aizen. :)

Nice find there and good point raised. :cool: And now that you mention that, it is kind of odd he wouldn't name-drop Masaki then.

The only thing I can think of right now's that Aizen was probably going to mention Masaki, but Isshin just had to drop in and interrupt him. Just think: if you truly wanted to traumatize your opponent in style, you'd do it in the lengthiest way possible, so you can see the gradual change of expressions from shocked to flat-out brainscrewed. Maybe Aizen wanted to do things from the very beginning, so he opens his speech with "I've known about you ever since you were born," then planned to end it with the Masaki bombshell. But alas, Isshin had to come in and ruin things. Perhaps the current flashback arc's his way of making it up to Ichigo? :p


I'd say Grand Fisher wanted to eat Masaki because he could sense White in her and White was a powerful Hollow. Maybe Grand Fisher thought he could obtain an easy way to evolve if he ate White who was supressed within Masaki?


I even have this gut feeling that Masaki might have done something to kill herself. Like maybe she could sense Grand Fisher wanting to consume White so she did some suicide move to kill herself and White so Grand Fisher would go away not noticing Ichigo whose powers were still immature.

It's possible, but the question still stands as to why he didn't eat Ichigo - who must have had some higher level of spiritual awareness than most humans, even if his powers were still immature. It also doesn't help that he's a hybrid of pretty much all the races now, which means he must look like some kind of one-stop buffet for most Hollows.

But I don't know. :p Whitey could have continued to live on in Masaki too, so you may be onto something there. :confused:


However... I just think having Aizen behind it is too obvious. (Because Kubo loves surprises and twists.) And NGC 602 makes some very good points... why didn't Aizen go for that emotional trigger with Ichigo?

I admit I thought for a long time Aizen was behind it. After all, he experimented with Hollows and proved himself to be their leader... but then Kubo showed us those flashbacks where Aizen basically admitted being behind Hollows who could hide their reiatsu, etc. So why would he leave out that Aizen ordered Grand Fisher after Ichigo?

Well, the arc doesn't look like it's ended already, so I guess Aizen still has a few more panels to reveal himself. :p Unless of course, he wasn't behind the Masaki hit. Time will tell at this point in the story, guess we'll just have to wait a little bit more. :)

[Sacred Knight]

Having Aizen behind it, if anyone else is behind it, would not only be too obvious but too repetitive. It'd just be a bad move. I think in the end Grand Fisher killed her, with the possibility of some sort of set up by the Vandenreich. And that's a maybe. Anything involving Aizen though is just silly at this point.

[my2kb22]

I agree that it ain't aizen, as i said before... its too plain and obvious........ and grand fisher is also a plain and obvious..... if it was grand fisher was the one who killed masaki....kubo wouldn't have to go to all this charade, hits, quotes about GF might not be the killer........ Grand fisher might be the one that took the spoils after masaki was killed by our mystery person.... and not killed masaki directly...... kinda like a vulture scavenging of the remains

[Belias]

So many vote for Aizen... I don't even... That really makes no sense, Aizen was never the type to kill, well, anyone. There were plenty of people he could have or even a list of people "tired" to kill/"might" have killed, but all that is hearsay. We all know Aizen is coming back, he is still needed in the story and if he did kill Masaki, I don't see how that could be possible. So I'm going to have to go with it was GF or someone we don't know about yet.

[Herakles]

Considering that Aizen knew of Ichigo from the moment he was born and played a pertinent role in developing him, it does make viable sense to consider Aizen as Masaki's killer. However, does it make sense for Kubo to make this revelation now, despite the obvious, despite accomplishing almost next to nothing in reflection to Ichigo's feelings? No, not really since it will probably make Ichigo hate Aizen on a deep emotional level.

Is there room to consider other perpetrators behind Masaki's death? Of course there is, we don't actually know who killed her since it has been aloft for a very long time.

:cool:

[bliz]

In my opinion this is what happened.

Masaki panicked when she saw Ichigo running towards GF
*I'm really at disbelief Masaki was spiritually aware yet didn't hold on to Ichigo tightly*
She tried to use her Quincy power but couldn't land a hit
Sensing the situation was hopeless, she severed the chain binding to Isshin,
With the hope of Isshin gets there to save Ichigo
However she rapidly transformed into a hollow and that scared GF into leaving
But shinigami's were already coming to scene due to the disturbance, and
once they arrived they saw a hollowified Masaki.

Situation A:
The shinigami killed hollowfied Masaki

or

Situation B:
With the shinigami's arrival, and whatever reasoning remained, Masaki simply left and probably ended up in HM


I am quite sure Bach is going to twist the event and blame Urahara/SS for Masaki's apparent death. That would be the only viable way of making Ichigo join the VR.


If Aizen killed Masaki then he could have bragged about it in FKT/Deicide arc. And its pretty obvious Tite didn't intent on Ichigo being a Quincy originally. If he did, Aizen would have made sarcastic remarks of Shinigami (gotei 13) protecting a Quincy.

[Herakles]

But shinigami's were already coming to scene due to the disturbance, and
once they arrived they saw a hollowified Masaki.
http://i29.mangapanda.com/bleach/123/bleach-1588176.jpg
The few Quincy that were still alive in the World of the Living were actually being watched by the Shinigami, as according to Mayuri.



Situation B:
With the shinigami's arrival, and whatever reasoning Masaki had left, she simply left and probably ended up in HM I don't see why this wouldn't make sense since Soul Suicide should have been prevented, it was only the Hollowfication that called for the extensive procedure of binding two Souls together.

Though, we did see her lying on top of Ichigo, dead. Unless of course her Soul Hollowfied and returned to Hueco Muendo.


I am quite sure Bach is going to twist the event and blame Urahara/SS for Masaki's apparent death. That would be the only viable way of making Ichigo join the VR.
Considering that Yhwach wants to "re-educate" Ichigo, it would make sense since that specific word is a euphemism for brainwashing and could potentially make Ichigo turn his back on the Shinigami for a time.

[Black Mask]

The answer is SCIENCE!

Aizen rigged Grand Fisher with a device that cut apart the bonds holding Masaki and Isshin's souls, in turn Masaki began to hollowfy before her kid and decided to kill herself to protect him.

Grand Fisher fled and later had his memories erased by Aizen to keep the botched retrieval attempt a secret.

[Sariniste]

I also agree, Kubo who has apparently been thinking and writing this arc up for a very long time, probably left specific things such as Masaki's death, as an equivocation to create more of a dramatic effect on Ichigo in the future.

As many have pointed out, revealing it was Aizen really wont accomplish much other than an Ichigo who is extremely angry at Aizen. However, has her death is completely vague to the point where nothing was ever confirmed or denied, only deduced, I think it will also be someone we know but would never have suspected.

Personally, I hope it to be someone that will push Ichigo over the edge to the extent where it makes him second guess and rethink everything he has done for everyone.
Herakles, I think you're onto something there. I think we should look at this in terms of plot twist and emotional impact. The truth behind Masaki's death? What would have the most emotional impact on Ichigo?

Let's look at the choices in the poll and analyze them from the point of view of plot impact:

Aizen Sousuke - well, as has been mentioned, not much emotional impact other than Ichigo being even more determined to defeat and/or kill Aizen. Ho hum.

Urahara Kisuke - now THIS would be an interesting choice. Even though Urahara has been shown to have questionable morals, Kubo has placed him firmly in the mentor/surrogate father role. He keeps making him out to be sympathetic. It would definitely have emotional impact on Ichigo, who implicitly trusts him. It's true that at some point in this type of plot, the father figure/mentor traditionally dies so that the hero can stand on his own (e.g. Dumbledore, Obi-wan, etc.). So having Urahara turn out to be a killer and a villain would accomplish the same goal in a much more devastating way. This would be a Wham Episode as shocking as the first Aizen reveal... maybe not as much for the readers (since lots of folks think Urahara will be the final villain) as for Ichigo.

Royal Guard/Soul King - again, a shocking reveal, though without the emotional punch of Urahara being his mother's killer. We still don't know who the Soul King is, nor does Ichigo, so even though he's supposed to be the Grand Poobah of the "good" side and it would turn all of Ichigo's supposed alliances upside down, it wouldn't be as much of a kick in the gut as an Urahara betrayal would be. So this may be the most likely choice. A shocker, but not something that would make all the readers angry and hurt.

G13 Captain - if it's one of the trusted captains (like I thought Kubo was setting up Ukitake in one of the recent chapters) then it could be an awesome reveal. I think I would like this personally from a plot standpoint... it might make Ichigo (and the audiience) question everything and "push Ichigo over the edge" as Herakles says. It would certainly be very exciting. But Kubo would have a lot of explaining to do if it were a trusted captain. If it were Mayuri, then it's not quite as much emotional punch. We already know the guy is beyond evil and has been actively planning and executing genocide. Personally, I'm surprised that Ichigo is still lining himself up with the organization that authorizes Mayuri's atrocities. :(

Quincy/VandenReich - Well, again, not much emotional punch because the VR have already been set up as the scary and powerful villains of the arc. However, it would be logical and would provide Ichigo with even more emotional justification to go after Yhwach. Perhaps that is what Kubo is going for. He has been building up Yhwach as a horrific, powerful villain, having him brutally murder many of the long-standing main characters (and almost murder a big time fan favorite, Byakuya). Having him be the one who orchestrated Ichigo's mother's death would cement Ichigo's emotional conviction to fight on the side of the G13.

Grand Fischer, duh! - Another ho-hum choice. Very unlikely, and also very boring.


I guess if I have to go for likelihood, I would say Royal Guard/Soul King. Second most likely: Urahara.

But my personal preference would be for it to be one of the trusted captains. I think that would be very interesting and I would love seeing how Kubo retconned it. ;) However, I don't think that's very likely.


Nice find there and good point raised. :cool: And now that you mention that, it is kind of odd he wouldn't name-drop Masaki then.

The only thing I can think of right now's that Aizen was probably going to mention Masaki, but Isshin just had to drop in and interrupt him. Just think: if you truly wanted to traumatize your opponent in style, you'd do it in the lengthiest way possible, so you can see the gradual change of expressions from shocked to flat-out brainscrewed. Maybe Aizen wanted to do things from the very beginning, so he opens his speech with "I've known about you ever since you were born," then planned to end it with the Masaki bombshell. But alas, Isshin had to come in and ruin things. Perhaps the current flashback arc's his way of making it up to Ichigo? :p





Well, the arc doesn't look like it's ended already, so I guess Aizen still has a few more panels to reveal himself. :p Unless of course, he wasn't behind the Masaki hit. Time will tell at this point in the story, guess we'll just have to wait a little bit more. :)


So many vote for Aizen... I don't even... That really makes no sense, Aizen was never the type to kill, well, anyone. There were plenty of people he could have or even a list of people "tired" to kill/"might" have killed, but all that is hearsay. We all know Aizen is coming back, he is still needed in the story and if he did kill Masaki, I don't see how that could be possible. So I'm going to have to go with it was GF or someone we don't know about yet.
Yes, Franco, it's certainly possible that it could be that Aizen was about to mention Masaki and then got interrupted by Isshin. But I still think it's unlikely. First, Isshin just doesn't show the kind of hatred toward Aizen that you would expect towards the killer of his wife. (Of course, maybe he simply doesn't know.) But I am more convinced by the argument that Belias made here. As Belias points out, it really would be out of character for Aizen to have killed Masaki at that point in the story. Aizen kills less than Yhwach and even Mayuri. Kubo says that Aizen is still necessary for the story. Just as Belias says, if Aizen had killed Masaki, that would not be adding much to the story. So… I agree it doesn't really make sense. Of course, as you say, Franco... Time will tell and we really don't know. Kubo has left it quite open. ;)

[Herakles]

In regards to Aizen and where the plot is heading, it doesn't really make too much sense as pointed out by various people.



Aizen: practically nothing. It would make Ichigo genuinely hate Aizen, and want to kill him. But Aizen is immortal, and Ichigo's already had his chance at that. Kubo would not use Aizen for something like this at this point, surely. If he wanted to do that then he should've done it back when Aizen was speaking to Ichigo about his father.

I also don't think Aizen had anything to do with it. We already had Aizen blabbering to Ichigo about how he was making him stronger & stronger and how Ichigo was at the palm of his hands. But he never mentioned anything about Masaki.


I just think it's a little odd that if Aizen really wanted to goad Ichigo into reaching for more power that he didn't go for the obvious emotional trigger. After all Aizen presumably was of the opinion that he was entering his end game so he wouldn't really have anything to lose revealing that information.


However... I just think having Aizen behind it is too obvious. (Because Kubo loves surprises and twists.) And NGC 602 makes some very good points... why didn't Aizen go for that emotional trigger with Ichigo?

So many vote for Aizen... I don't even... That really makes no sense, Aizen was never the type to kill, well, anyone. There were plenty of people he could have or even a list of people "tired" to kill/"might" have killed, but all that is hearsay. We all know Aizen is coming back, he is still needed in the story and if he did kill Masaki, I don't see how that could be possible. So I'm going to have to go with it was GF or someone we don't know about yet.

In terms of what the plot has already established, Aizen makes logical sense to be the perpetrator. But in reflection to what has been mentioned above, it doesn't make sense, especially in reflection to Ichigo.

I tend to lean towards what Sariniste said, especially the mention of emphasising an emotional shock and plot twist. The Royal Guard/Soul King can make some sense, all be it we don't actually know why they would have any reasoning and motive behind killing Masaki. The same can go for Yhwach and the Vandenreich as well, not to mention it would be awfully stupid of them to enlist Ichigo as a SWP and add him to their troops; only to find out they killed his mother in the past. :confused:

Big mistake there. :rolleyes:

There is leeway to suggest a lot of candidates with some great theories/analysis already posted in this thread, though, as for Grandfisher, I thought that harahara's OP practically enforces the fact that it wasn't him based on why Ichigo and Isshin blame themselves for Masaki's death? :confused:

[namc]

I dont believe she died from a hollow myself, but if she did it would make sense that she would appear to a hollow as Ichigo used to initially. Essentially "adolescent" but still spiritual, while Ichigo could potentially have been "cloaked" by his second tier (Quincy, shinigami) similar to how Tatsuki and co couldnt sense aizen. That would leave some explaining to do as to why Ichigo was later detectable by pure shinigami, though its not unrealistic to think his quincy power was forced into dormancy by Rukia's soul reaper powers.
That being said, a hollow attacking a helpless plus seems to be the most likely scenario but it would be the least impactful in every way possible. I hope it is Urahara, as plot wise it stands to grow ichigo the most but I think Urahara will have an individual goal that has points helping both the enemys and the friendlys as he was shown to do "saving" Masaki.

[KroLeXz]

There will should be an option for Ichigo controled by whitey. Grandfisher tried to kill he's mother, and he lost control and defeated grand fisher but also dealt a blow to his mother or something similar to that affect. Grand Fisher obviously did not eat Masaki nor did he kill Ichigo.... something more happened there.

[Elementalist]

I honestly don't see what the point of Aizen killing Masaki would be honestly, from the point of view of his own character which hardly kills people unless they are a massive threat (Yamamoto) or from a story standpoint. The only way that Kubo would have ever taken that route would be to have a deep emotional tension between Ichigo and Aizen, but considering he is no longer main antagonist, and he himself saying Ichigo had no deep quarrel with him back during FKT, its likely not his doing.

None of the other options make that much sense to me either, as:

Urahara definitely wouldn't after just saving her.

The Royal Guard & the Soul King strike me as the type that could care less, at least not about Masaki.

The Gotei 13 or some other Shinigami I honestly couldn't see doing it. Even Aizen makes more sense than the Captains, and I don't see him likely killing Masaki.

That leaves Grand Fisher and the Vandenreich, the current set of main antagonist. Considering Masaki's Quincy heritage, if it was not simply GF that killed her then I'd bank on Quincy politics and the bond made with Isshin as the reason. Juha Bach already mentioned Ichigo's mother, so if there is some underlying secret it may rest with him.

[Seri55]

I honestly don't see what the point of Aizen killing Masaki would be honestly, from the point of view of his own character which hardly kills people unless they are a massive threat (Yamamoto) or from a story standpoint. The only way that Kubo would have ever taken that route would be to have a deep emotional tension between Ichigo and Aizen, but considering he is no longer main antagonist, and he himself saying Ichigo had no deep quarrel with him back during FKT, its likely not his doing.

None of the other options make that much sense to me either, as:

Urahara definitely wouldn't after just saving her.

The Royal Guard & the Soul King strike me as the type that could care less, at least not about Masaki.

The Gotei 13 or some other Shinigami I honestly couldn't see doing it. Even Aizen makes more sense than the Captains, and I don't see him likely killing Masaki.

That leaves Grand Fisher and the Vandenreich, the current set of main antagonist. Considering Masaki's Quincy heritage, if it was not simply GF that killed her then I'd bank on Quincy politics and the bond made with Isshin as the reason. Juha Bach already mentioned Ichigo's mother, so if there is some underlying secret it may rest with him.



I can never get anything right lol...but you do make a good point, I am wondering then, why it took them so long in killing her if it was the Vanderich/Quincies? It could have been and maybe that is why Ryuukken seemed not to give a rat's behind about his son going to SS during the Arrancar Arc, even though he told him not to get involve...so many questions..I will just have to wait...

[Andygoesrawr]

That leaves Grand Fisher and the Vandenreich, the current set of main antagonist. Considering Masaki's Quincy heritage, if it was not simply GF that killed her then I'd bank on Quincy politics and the bond made with Isshin as the reason. Juha Bach already mentioned Ichigo's mother, so if there is some underlying secret it may rest with him.

Exactly. It would be really advantageous to the story right now if it turns out to be Juhabach who killed Masaki. I really doubt Kubo would just happen to mention it before the main Quincy arc.

Although, why would Juhabach kill Masaki? I figured at first it was because he wanted to eradicate all "impure" (non-Vandenreich) Quincies, but then why not the Ishidas? Who knows...

Also! Juhabach killing Masaki would absolutely force Ryuuken to side against the Vandenreich. Not necessarily a big thing, but it rules out the possibility of him joining the enemy. I kind of wanted to see him fight against Isshin, but they're more frenemies than anything so I don't see it happening.

[KroLeXz]

I guess this chapter or next weeks chapter will answer this question and this thread will be closed.


My Ichigo theory is coming to fruit with the recent spoilers suggesting were about to get the real reason which Isshin has kept from Ichigo.

[ishida]

My Ichigo theory is coming to fruit with the recent spoilers suggesting were about to get the real reason which Isshin has kept from Ichigo.

or my theory about a drunken Ryuuken showing up to save the day but kills Masaki with a Quincy arrow instead of Grandfisher.

[FinalFlash]

Masaki hollowfies and goes crazy so Ishin has to go FGT and kill her

[Black Mask]

My guess is that Masaki fought Aizen, kicked his ass (possibly stealing his bankai) but then began to hollowfy and had to kill herself in order to save Ichigo.

The big reveal will not be that Masaki died because of Aizen, the big reveal is that in her last moments Masaki transferred a part of her reiatsu (Yondaime style) to Ichigo and created his Zanpakutou.

This is what Nymaya Ouetsu was talking about, Ichigo's zanpakutou has it's roots on Masaki's last act of love to protect him and that kept him protected from hollows until his powers had developed to the point he could protect himself and others.

When Rukia arrived and shove her reiatsu on Ichigo's heart, Masaki's gambit paid off as Ichigo awoken the power which would ultimately cause Aizen's downfall.

[Black Mask]

^ this is turning into Harry Potter now lo

Every modern work is entitled to draw something from previous successful enterpreneurships, case in point the whole shonen genre has been copying itself since the 80's which in turn were inspired by silver age American comics.

[Mcnubins]

What if Masaki simply somehow purposefully severed the link from Isshin that was keeping her alive, called on her quincy, or hollow, side to defend Ichigo and then died from the resulting inevitable "soul suicide"? It stands to reason that could have happened, I do not think her oblivious to her prior person/abilities and if she did that, Isshin may have felt guilty he wasn't there to protect her from choosing such a fate. It seems convoluted but it could fit.

[Latte]

I can imagine a standoff happening:

Quincies and Shinigami on both sides discover the relationship and flock towards Masaki to stop the unholy union and birth of a hybrid (indirectly a possible source for some anguish from Ichigo, blaming himself for something he cannot personally control)

Ryuken and Isshin come to intervene against both sides but are hopelessly outmatched by the numbers of enemies, as well as trying to avoid a new Quincy Shinigami conflict emerging after years of relative 'peace'.

Masaki as the middle ground kills herself unexpectedly to solve the problem and Ryuken and Isshin look on in horror.

Quincy representative says something along the lines of: 'enough Quincy blood has been spilled this day, You will pay for this Shinigami'

Shinigami representative says something along the lines of: 'We've exterminated you once, we can do it again' (Mayuri may vow to experiment on Quincies as revenge for wasting his time if he was there)

Both parties leave.

In the end Ichigo must continue his mother's legacy and bring peace to both sides. Cliche, but will probally happen anyway.

[Herakles]

After what this current chapter explained.
http://i999.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/bleach-4136907.jpg
I think we can conclusively rule out Ichigo having anything to do with Masaki's death, in the regard that he actually killed her. Not to mention Kubo would only achieve a self-loathing Ichigo.

[Alecko]

Exactly. It would be really advantageous to the story right now if it turns out to be Juhabach who killed Masaki. I really doubt Kubo would just happen to mention it before the main Quincy arc.

Although, why would Juhabach kill Masaki? I figured at first it was because he wanted to eradicate all "impure" (non-Vandenreich) Quincies, but then why not the Ishidas? Who knows...

Also! Juhabach killing Masaki would absolutely force Ryuuken to side against the Vandenreich. Not necessarily a big thing, but it rules out the possibility of him joining the enemy. I kind of wanted to see him fight against Isshin, but they're more frenemies than anything so I don't see it happening.

Honour killings do unfortunately exist in our world. The whole point of the Masaki/Ryuuken marriage was to preserve the 'pure' Quincy blood and if Masaki was blamed for it then all it would take was a fanatical VR to take her out. Which would also explain why Ryuuken is still around.

Though it wouldn't necessarily have to be Bach who did it or even ordered it. That could be an interesting guessing game if we know a Quincy did it but not who.

My vote is going to the VandenReich for that reason. Nothing else in the options sticks out though it being somebody from the G13 would bug me. That sounds like the sort of thing that should have been brought up sooner, especially after the end of the SS arc when Ichigo was on fairly decent terms with them. Potentially interacting with his mothers killer and not having the slightest clue about it would imo, be horrifying to find out later.

Granted, when that could have been brought up is beyond me considering how later he found out about Isshin. :-/ Unless it was just tacked on at the end of the FB arc...though that would still be really late.

[ByakuyaMayuri]

Isshin on the last page on chapter 536: "What really killed your mother that day..." (end)

http://manga.starkana.com/151/147698/19.png

Here are my list of potential suspects, but not exactly in the order that I list them at.

1. Yhwach (The leder of the Vandenreich) or one of his subordinates. This explains why he wanted to bring Ichigo back after the total destruction of the soul society. To slowly re-educate Ichigo after bringing him back ( from what???).. To fill Ichigo's head with propaganda.
2. Ryūken Ishida's mother. The very idea of Masaki hooking up with a Shinigami drove her off the edge, especially since shes no longer considered "Pure".
3. Ryūken Ishida's servant. The woman obvious has feeling for him and if she takes away the competition (Masaki) Ryūken would be all hers.

[Andygoesrawr]

Honour killings do unfortunately exist in our world. The whole point of the Masaki/Ryuuken marriage was to preserve the 'pure' Quincy blood and if Masaki was blamed for it then all it would take was a fanatical VR to take her out. Which would also explain why Ryuuken is still around.

Though it wouldn't necessarily have to be Bach who did it or even ordered it. That could be an interesting guessing game if we know a Quincy did it but not who.

My vote is going to the VandenReich for that reason. Nothing else in the options sticks out though it being somebody from the G13 would bug me. That sounds like the sort of thing that should have been brought up sooner, especially after the end of the SS arc when Ichigo was on fairly decent terms with them. Potentially interacting with his mothers killer and not having the slightest clue about it would imo, be horrifying to find out later.

Granted, when that could have been brought up is beyond me considering how later he found out about Isshin. :-/ Unless it was just tacked on at the end of the FB arc...though that would still be really late.

It would be interesting if it turned out to be Ryuuken's mother. She's emotionally unstable and would not be happy to have the pure Quincy line end because of Masaki's actions.

:)

- - - Updated - - -


Isshin on the last page on chapter 536: "What really killed your mother that day..." (end)

http://manga.starkana.com/151/147698/19.png

Here are my list of potential suspects, but not exactly in the order that I list them at.

1. Yhwach (The leder of the Vandenreich) or one of his subordinates. This explains why he wanted to bring Ichigo back after the total destruction of the soul society. To slowly re-educate Ichigo after bringing him back ( from what???).. To fill Ichigo's head with propaganda.
2. Ryūken Ishida's mother. The very idea of Masaki hooking up with a Shinigami drove her off the edge, especially since shes no longer considered "Pure".
3. Ryūken Ishida's servant. The woman obvious has feeling for him and if she takes away the competition (Masaki) Ryūken would be all hers.

Just beat me to it!

Also, I've just remembered that Uryu's mother will have to die somehow. Katagiri is just as emotionally unstable as Ryuuken's mother, and also has a sense of purity about the Quincies, despite being Gemischt herself.

How about a showdown between Katagiri, Isshin and Masaki? Throw in Ryuuken and Grand Fisher and we got a party!

[Xianghua]

I think it was Urahara Kisuke.
The reasons I think it was him was because:
1) Isshin didn't have his powers back at that point, so there was no way he could have done anything.
2) His dark expression at the end of today's chapter seems to indicate that he knew Masaki was going to die (or had some part/knowledge of it.)
3) Urahara knew most about what he was doing at the beginning when he offered to help Masaki, and therefore, if he'd have to itervene at some point for unknown reasons.
4) Even when Isshin regained his powers, Urahara seemed to know quite a bit about what was going on.
5) The fact that Isshin also blames himself could imply that he really did know what Urahara was thinking at that time, that if Masaki encountered the Grand Fisher, a Hollow (which, possibly did happen) that he'd have to kill her or else the hollow within her could have gone out of control, and this time there'd be nothing that Isshin could do about it as he didn't have his powers, either.

[Moon]

What if Masaki simply somehow purposefully severed the link from Isshin that was keeping her alive, called on her quincy, or hollow, side to defend Ichigo and then died from the resulting inevitable "soul suicide"? It stands to reason that could have happened, I do not think her oblivious to her prior person/abilities and if she did that, Isshin may have felt guilty he wasn't there to protect her from choosing such a fate. It seems convoluted but it could fit.

You have something here. I think I can expand on it a bit...

Isshin explained that the link between him and the hollow didn't actually break until 20 years later when Ichigo started fighting. If he broke the link to fight with Masaki it would have put child Ichigo's life in danger.

I wonder if Isshin was able to perceive spiritual beings during that time and was conscious of what was going on... that would add to the drama.

I'm hoping Masaki did have an epic battle with someone. I don't think she had to break the link and soul suicide. After all, we saw her body on the ground and blood everywhere. That looks more like a combat death.

As for the person who killed her, I think it's Aizen. Or at least he manipulated events so she would be in battle. He said he knew about Ichigo since he was born and must have been hoping to advance the hollowfication experiments at some point...

[KroLeXz]

After what this current chapter explained.
http://i999.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/bleach-4136907.jpg
I think we can conclusively rule out Ichigo having anything to do with Masaki's death, in the regard that he actually killed her. Not to mention Kubo would only achieve a self-loathing Ichigo.


This is truly the most important PAGE. Isshin was never linked to Ichigo, but to MIsaki - they never knew the hollow would find a way to transfer to her first born son. The reason Isshin was linked to Ichigo was probably after that incident.

[Herakles]

This is truly the most important PAGE. Isshin was never linked to Ichigo, but to MIsaki - they never knew the hollow would find a way to transfer to her first born son. The reason Isshin was linked to Ichigo was probably after that incident.
Where did you get the idea that they didn't know? Isshin clearly said the connection was severed because the Hollow awoke in Ichigo and he couldn't suppress it any longer. White more than logically became apart of Ichigo at birth, unless we are missing something.

What incident are you talking about? :confused:

[Belias]

I can imagine a standoff happening:

Quincies and Shinigami on both sides discover the relationship and flock towards Masaki to stop the unholy union and birth of a hybrid (indirectly a possible source for some anguish from Ichigo, blaming himself for something he cannot personally control)

Ryuken and Isshin come to intervene against both sides but are hopelessly outmatched by the numbers of enemies, as well as trying to avoid a new Quincy Shinigami conflict emerging after years of relative 'peace'.

Masaki as the middle ground kills herself unexpectedly to solve the problem and Ryuken and Isshin look on in horror.

Quincy representative says something along the lines of: 'enough Quincy blood has been spilled this day, You will pay for this Shinigami'

Shinigami representative says something along the lines of: 'We've exterminated you once, we can do it again' (Mayuri may vow to experiment on Quincies as revenge for wasting his time if he was there)

Both parties leave.


This is Bleach not Twilight. This is sad that I even realize that.


I think it was Urahara Kisuke.
The reasons I think it was him was because:
1) Isshin didn't have his powers back at that point, so there was no way he could have done anything.
2) His dark expression at the end of today's chapter seems to indicate that he knew Masaki was going to die (or had some part/knowledge of it.)
3) Urahara knew most about what he was doing at the beginning when he offered to help Masaki, and therefore, if he'd have to itervene at some point for unknown reasons.
4) Even when Isshin regained his powers, Urahara seemed to know quite a bit about what was going on.
5) The fact that Isshin also blames himself could imply that he really did know what Urahara was thinking at that time, that if Masaki encountered the Grand Fisher, a Hollow (which, possibly did happen) that he'd have to kill her or else the hollow within her could have gone out of control, and this time there'd be nothing that Isshin could do about it as he didn't have his powers, either.

I don't see how it can possibly be Urahara. Though all of your points could fit, it's would be a very dark and un-like Bleach twist. Basically, you are saying that both Isshin and Urahara are responsible for Masaki's death. This is the complete opposite of Ichigo's character progression thus far and a reveal like this would crush him. He would be moping around for another 20 chapters. No, this needs to lead into something else to give Ichigo focus. My guess is the VR.

[Sacred Knight]

If I could I'd change my vote to Isshin. My thoughts from the prediction thread:

My guess now is that Isshin kills Masaki. I think she'll successfully ward off Grand Fisher from Ichigo, in the process knocking him unoncsious, but the adrenaline of the threat supercedes the tie between Masaki and Isshin. In that moment the Hollow finally overtakes Masaki. With the link weakened, Isshin is able access his Shinigami powers. Knowing what this must mean he searches for Masaki and finds her hollowfied, about ready to eat a still unconscious Ichigo. The two fight, and in the process Isshin's captain's haori is mostly destroyed. In a pivotal moment Masaki regains control of herself enough to beg Isshin to kill her. Isshin tearfully obligies and slashes her mortally. As she weakens the link regains its strength and Isshin returns to his gigai, leaving Masaki and Ichigo alone. She crawls over to Ichigo and lays with him as she dies. Shortly thereafter Urahara re-forges the bond, this time between Isshin and Ichigo for his protection, and its this new bond that breaks after Ichigo gains his Hollow powers and Isshin regains his Shinigami powers permanently.

[Herakles]

But Isshin regained his Shinigami powers after 20 years, when the connection between he and Ichigo was severed?
http://i997.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/bleach-4136907.jpg

So I do not see how Isshin is responsible. Especially when we're talking about the same Isshin who regained his Shinigami powers after 20 years, not after 11 years, which would be when Masaki died in the context Isshin is speaking in.

[Sacred Knight]

From a completely straight-forward point of view, I admit it contradicts Isshin's exact words, so the theory has to exercise a teeny bit of leeway. But basically I'm thinking of it from the mindset that when Masaki Hollowfies, the link stresses giving Isshin access. After he wounds her she returns to normal, and the "heals" enough to bind Isshin again (this only to explain Ichigo being alone with Masaki's body when he awakens). When Masaki succumbs, the link is broken altogether. Then at some point shortly thereafter, Urahara creates a new bond for Isshin and Ichigo. So this temporary recovery period is very, very short-lived.

[Herakles]

You can stick with it, but your theory is completely contradicted by the fact that Isshin took the form of a Shinigami/regained his Shinigami powers first time in 20 years.
http://i23.mangapanda.com/bleach/188/bleach-12929.jpghttp://i997.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/bleach-4136907.jpg

[Sacred Knight]

I already acknowledged the contradictions and admitted it requires a "certain point of view" spin of words already spoken. I read the series, I don't need to keep being shown pages. I'm not putting a gun to anyone's head, its just an idea.

[Herakles]

And I was merely enlightening you that your theory seems a less than possible based on what we know. I wasn't trying to antagonise you or anything, rather explaining why I don't think that theory works based on what Isshin had said in the past and now.

[Sacred Knight]

Fair enough. I'm not banking on it or anything. But no matter what the ultimate answer is, I really wouldn't rule out the idea of it containing a contradiction or two to back material. After so long its very possible Kubo's scene will retcon something.

[KroLeXz]

Where did you get the idea that they didn't know? Isshin clearly said the connection was severed because the Hollow awoke in Ichigo and he couldn't suppress it any longer. White more than logically became apart of Ichigo at birth, unless we are missing something.

What incident are you talking about? :confused:


White escaped into Ichigo when he was born is my theory - they either need to explain that after Ichigo was born they knew the Ichigo inherited whitey and thus they had to tie isshin to ichigo as well or they did not know until he came out that masaki died and than was tied to ichigo in the same fashion they did with masaki.

- - - Updated - - -

also a very important translation difference between mangapanda and mangastream

http://img.mangastream.com/m/53/10805472/73e3c1211c26a3ea8a1497f2c7d4761b.png

"What killed Masaki"

Not Who...

and

Mangapanda states reason.

[Elementalist]

I honestly wouldn't like it if Kubo went the rampaging inner hollow route. (again...) For one, Isshin pretty much confirms that hes never taken Shinigami form in 20 years, not till Ichigo's showdown with Byakuya. That means its not possible for whitey to have rampaged at any point before then, as that would imply the soul link was severed and Isshin would or should have had access to his powers.

Another thing, I'm very tired of the whole Ichigo blaming himself for everything depressed phase. It played itself out for far too long to me, and it would be nice if he could move on from blaming himself. We also need to move past the point of Ichigo's hollow being a major negative influence. (We actually already did in Deicide) If Kubo went this route, all it would do is start back up the same old song & dance with Ichigo and the inner hollow. If Ichigo is suppose to achieve inner balance, it can't happen if the hollow side is demonized.

I'd much rather Kubo gave a strong connection to Bach being the reason for Masaki's death in some way or another, whether by his own hand or his own actions. We need to know what Masaki was to Bach, as well as the Ishidas eventually, and this would be a big step in exposition as well as solidifying Bach's role as the major villain of the manga. He has a major role already, but being the cause of Masaki's death would make it more personal than any antagonist to date. Even if it were another important Vandenreich member (Haschwald?) it would solidify the faction as personal enemies for Ichigo.

Aside from that, it makes sense that Quincy politics will come to play soon regarding Masaki's decision to live life with a Shinigami. Just like the Soul Society has rules and whatnot for breaking taboos, the Quincy might have their own which would be the reason for her death.

[KroLeXz]

I honestly wouldn't like it if Kubo went the rampaging inner hollow route. (again...) For one, Isshin pretty much confirms that hes never taken Shinigami form in 20 years, not till Ichigo's showdown with Byakuya. That means its not possible for whitey to have rampaged at any point before then, as that would imply the soul link was severed and Isshin would or should have had access to his powers.

Another thing, I'm very tired of the whole Ichigo blaming himself for everything depressed phase. It played itself out for far too long to me, and it would be nice if he could move on from blaming himself. We also need to move past the point of Ichigo's hollow being a major negative influence. (We actually already did in Deicide) If Kubo went this route, all it would do is start back up the same old song & dance with Ichigo and the inner hollow. If Ichigo is suppose to achieve inner balance, it can't happen if the hollow side is demonized.

I'd much rather Kubo gave a strong connection to Bach being the reason for Masaki's death in some way or another, whether by his own hand or his own actions. We need to know what Masaki was to Bach, as well as the Ishidas eventually, and this would be a big step in exposition as well as solidifying Bach's role as the major villain of the manga. He has a major role already, but being the cause of Masaki's death would make it more personal than any antagonist to date. Even if it were another important Vandenreich member (Haschwald?) it would solidify the faction as personal enemies for Ichigo.

Aside from that, it makes sense that Quincy politics will come to play soon regarding Masaki's decision to live life with a Shinigami. Just like the Soul Society has rules and whatnot for breaking taboos, the Quincy might have their own which would be the reason for her death.


You're probably right, as stated above and other posters... wouldn't be smart for Kubo to demonize Ichigo further.... I do believe we are owed an explanation though, something like this can't just be taken on assumption - Ichigo inherited whitey (fact, and I'll explain further down), it transferred over to him. Isshin at one point had to have linked with Ichigo.

Lets strip down to fact based on the translations we had.....
Ichigo inherited whitey, first born and the hollow jumped host. This is interesting, because once whitey came out during byakua fight and Isshin regain he's powers that illusrated Isshin no longer was restraining anything. Meaning he's sisters do not have traces of hollow in them.

[eljay]

You're probably right, as stated above and other posters... wouldn't be smart for Kubo to demonize Ichigo further.... I do believe we are owed an explanation though, something like this can't just be taken on assumption - Ichigo inherited whitey (fact, and I'll explain further down), it transferred over to him. Isshin at one point had to have linked with Ichigo.

Lets strip down to fact based on the translations we had.....
Ichigo inherited whitey, first born and the hollow jumped host. This is interesting, because once whitey came out during byakua fight and Isshin regain he's powers that illusrated Isshin no longer was restraining anything. Meaning he's sisters do not have traces of hollow in them.
Think I wrote something like that in other chapter thread; that possibly Yuzu and Karin have only been born with the potential to become quincy/fullbringers - and that, remembering that zangetsu and ichigo's hollow were 'ORIGINALLY' one being, its possible that 'they' were always originally Whitey. If we're looking into ichigo's roots, we're going to discover where all his powers(/souls) came from, right?

But then again, it could actually turn out that maybe Isshin's reiatsu was only enough to suppress masaki and ichigo's hollows, whereby a second person in a shell would be needed for the job of suppressing his daughters' hollows. *flies off to ikumi thread* lel

Not sure how it'll help the plot if Aizen is the only one responsible for Masaki's death, though. You'd think this would be the time to either blame SS/RG or the VR for the purpose of the narrative.

[Arkyle]

I had voted Grand Fisher. I think he is the actual culprit, but Isshin said "reason". That means there is a hidden motive, maybe not GF's, but someone else's. Under other circumstances I would have said Aizen did it...but it would just be adding more icing to a finished cake, so my take is that the ones behind it are no other than the Quincies. She did not only save a Shinigami, got infected with hollow reiatsu, and got attached to said shinigami...she friggin MARRIED THE SHINIGAMI. Let alone a mixed blood quincy...not even a regular human, but a Shinigami! And she even had offspring. This screams heretic from everywhere you see it. It is way worse than what Isshin did to SS. This will give Ichigo the push he needs to face the VR and go all dark and sadistic on us.

[eljay]

Aaaand I've finally decided to stop sitting on the fence! (we must make out bets for next week :elmo :D)

Voted Aizen!
-the reader should probably have figured out by now that lots of hollow attacks had him behind them (4th level stuff)
-we haven't had narrative closure on Aizen's monitoring of Whitey/knowledge of Ichigo's birth
-Just as planned
-etc.

But mainly, this min-arc has been all finding out about where Ichigo's roots/soul lies. A crack interpretation of that would be that Aizen did something to Ichigo on that fateful June 17th - perhaps more than just transferring Whitey into him. Could be that this'll link into what Aizen 'took' from Rangiku? I always interpreted that more metaphorically, but if we say he literally 'took' a part of her soul, could be that Ichigo's 'soul'(asauchi) now lies in the Hogyoku? eh. something convoluted like that :D

But as far as the narrative goes, it'll be fine by me if a revelation like this leads Isshin and Ichigo to go and have a chat with bondage Aizen.... :o

[Mcnubins]

You have a point, or a few points actually. I just do not think that KT would throw in an Oediposian like Greek tragedy at this stage unless he is setting Ichigo up to become the harbinger of death for the whole world. Aizen or King Beardo would be the only people other than grandfisher I think that would work with her killing. The only other possibility I can imagine goes with what I stated already and it had to do with Masaki and the hollow inside her. Perhaps she implanted it in Ichigo.

[FinalFlash]

Expected it to be Isshin, but with the bonding thing it's got to be a Quincy. Question is, if it was either someone from the Ishida Clan or which is more likely, someone from VR which would prolly tie the story together in a better way

[harahara]

I'm also hoping it to be Quincy/Vandenreich related or even Royal Realm related. Anything but Aizen since it'd be somewhat anti-climatic. There's on drumroll behind it, if you catch my drift.

[WanderingMinstrel]

What if, while Isshin and Masaki were united by this unbreakable bond, it caused isshin to also succumb to similar curses. The last panel of this chapter is very onimous, the way it places emphasis on his left arm as if to say he's the one that actually caused Masaki to die.

Maybe what happened was Isshin felt that she was in trouble and wanted the power to save her, so he broke the bond hoping he would regain his shinigami powers, but all it did was cause Masaki's hollow to consume her and as this occured, she attempted to fight back against Grand Fisher but in the end lost using the last of her strength to shield Ichigo and taking a fatal blow to her back.

Another possible thing is before Masaki did die, she might have turned hollow, ichigo may of just made up the story in his head and in reality she ended up biting ichigo in her hollow state which is what transfered that hollow sense to Ichigo. Isshin called for Urahra's aid and this time the bond was made between father and son, a bond which began to break when the shinigami powers were forced into him by Rukia. I don't think it's the hyogyoku that caused Ichigo to take all of RUkia's powers but rather the hollow side that wanted to gain power to break out of this jail he was in.

Hopefully all will be revealed next chpt, but i am starting to think that it's possible Masaki ended up going on a rampage and Ichigo may have actually been hurt, you have to recall he was a kid and traumatic experiences can cause one to rewrite the memories in a way to repress things that actually occurred. All he might remember is something killed her and he was unable to do it, and he says something because the memory of seeing his mother, who he loved and always found as a kind soul that suddenly turned into a beast was something he just couldn't/wouldn't comprehend and forced himself to forget.

[Chimera Cord]

It was Mayuri in the night with the Hollow


It doesn't make any sense for a Quincy to die in Karakura Town and for Mayuri to either have nothing to do with it.

[Herakles]

@KroLeXz,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Manga Stream did a rough/broken translation of Chapter 536.




Everyone seems to be somewhat in agreement and somewhat in disagreement about Isshin’s next to last words in the chapter.


In Managapanda’s translation it reads, “Among what you went through, there’s something you still don’t know, 9 years ago, this day-June 17th is when your mother died.” “Listen, I will tell you, the REAL REASON your mother died that day.”
http://i999.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/bleach-4136909.jpghttp://i999.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/bleach-4136911.jpg


Mangastream’s translation reads, “There is one important thing, that you have been MISINFORMED about this entire time, it was 9 years ago this day-June 17th that your mother died.” “Listen closely, I am about to tell you, what really killed your mother that day.”
http://img.mangastream.com/m/53/10805472/0f5bfd6016488a2b2a2db0f6d907095c.pnghttp://img.mangastream.com/m/53/10805472/73e3c1211c26a3ea8a1497f2c7d4761b.png



Until raws are released, just to add in, the chinese translations follow MP's translation if you plan to explore these panels:


(p16,middle panel)
九年前的今天 6月 17曰
Nine years ago today June 17
(p16, last panel)
你母親死去的事情
Your mother's death's (matter/business/incident)http://i40.tinypic.com/30msspj.png

[Ichigo eye shot]
(p17, middle panel)
好好聽著 / 那天
listen very carefully / that day's
(p17, last panel)
母親死去真正的理由
Your mother's death's real reasonhttp://i41.tinypic.com/1j58wn.jpg

The raw scans have still not been posted on Manga Head yet, but I've done some lurking on Japanese Google and came across a site that has seemingly transcribed all the dialogue from Chapter 536 and other chapters into text format and hosted there.

一護　おめーが生まれてから経験したことはお前がよく知ってる。
Ichigo, you know very well what happened from your birth.

だから説明の必要はねー　だが
Therefore I don't need to explain, but.

お前が歩んできたなかで、まだ知らないことがある。
Amongst what you've been through, there is something you still do not know yet.

９年前の６月１７日当日 お前の母さんが死んだ時のことだ
June 17th this current day, is when your mother died.

いいかよく聞けよ　今こそ話そう　母さんがあの日死んだ本当の理由を
Can you listen well, I now shall tell you the real reason your mother died that day.

Feel free to correct any mistakes I made as I'm not confident with some parts of the translation. http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/images/smilies/glomp.gif


I am assuming 歩んできた is used because it means "come through/went through", in regards to what Ichigo has experienced?



(いいかよく聞けよ) Can you listen well, is that what Isshin means? (今こそ話そう) I now shall tell you. 話そう is the volitional formation of speak though, am I missing something? :confused:


My take, in red...black by Herakles (C'mon, we all know it's Hercules :) )
一護　おめーが生まれてから経験したことはお前がよく知ってる。
Ichigo, you know very well what happened from your birth.
"Ichigo...you know well about your experiences since you were born." That is to say you he knows what all happened to him up until this juncture.


だから説明の必要はねー　だが
Therefore I don't need to explain, but.
"And so, there isn't a necessity for an explanation. However.."Dakara setumei no hitsuyou wa ne.

お前が歩んできたなかで、まだ知らないことがある。
Amongst what you've been through, there is something you still do not know yet.
For all the steps you've taken in your life, there are things that you don't know about yet. mada shiranai koto--I think can mean unknown matter or matters... maybe singular or plural

9年前の6月17日当日 お前の母さんが死んだ時のことだ
June 17th this current day, is when your mother died.
No comment, save for the fact he doesn't say Masaki died, but rather "Your mother died". Nitpicking; just ignore me. :/

いいかよく聞けよ　今こそ話そう　母さんがあの日死んだ本当の理由を
Can you listen well, I now shall tell you the real reason your mother died that day.
"Alright? Listen up. I'll tell you now.. The real (actual) reason why your mother died that day." Okaasan ga ano hi shinda honto no riyuu wo..

Edit: Just to make things clear, I'll just literally type out that last bit for your own interpretation (if any).
Mother- that day - died- actual- reason -of (which I shall tell you)


Since we know there is a reason behind Masaki dying, Aizen seems less and less probable. He already informed Ichigo that he'd know of him from his birth and explained that his battles were not fated, rather manipulated.

As people have stated, what would it actually accomplish for Ichigo, by informing him that Aizen was this reason? We already know that he knew of Ichigo and had actively been developing him, so it really would change much unless there is a much bigger picture we are missing... :confused:

[*luthien*]

Voted for VandenReich... IMO it would be fitting if the backstory connects with the current one. It gives Ichigo motive, it'll make sense how Yhwach knew about Ichigo and his mother, it will allow us to learn more about VR.
I'm not sure why VR wanted Masaki dead tho...
Perhaps they wanted Masaki to join them but she refused and then got married to an ex shinigami and made non-pure babies? :P
I really don't know but i'm pretty excited for next week.

[jjong]

I voted for G13. But in honestly I think it is someone within the soul society whether the captains or Royal Guard. Remember what the royal Guard said ( the name just escape my mind sorry:( ) But, he said he must learn about his roots even it means he does not return. So thinking about it it applies that they had something to do with his mother's death....I could be wrong.

[xfsHime]

I voted for Quincy/VR, but I could also see it being a Shinigami. It looks like Masaki died protecting Ichigo, so it looks like he was the enemies target, probably because of his Shinigami/Quincy blood - my guess is someone didn't like the two mixing or saw him as a future threat and decided to eradicate him. If this is the case I also think that somebody showed up at some point to fight off the enemy hence why Ichigo survived.

[my2kb22]

Funny when this chapter came out people stop voting for "Grand Fischer, duh!" hheehe... when it was obvious that kubo plans to change it as he has hinted it in an omake and its well spread through out bleach forums that its highly possible that GF is not the killer but someone else

[xEclipse]

As some of the other members have stated,I believe it was the Quincy,or the Vandenreich more specifically that had something to do with Masakis death.As far as advancing the plot goes,I don't believe any other character would have a significant impact,as to Ichigo learning that the group that decimated Soul Society and broke his Bankai is the real reason his mother died.

[Minerva]

I'm going to throw this out as an option:

We don't know what happened the first time Rukia went to the human world; her memory was seemingly wiped. I'm not suggesting she did it of her own will out of boredom or anything (because Kubo would never do that with Rukia), but I suspect Rukia was involved with this somewhere. Her squad has jurisdiction of Karakura, so if she were on duty when all this spiritual activity came up, she would have gone to investigate. Grand Fisher skulking around would certainly be a reason to involve a Shinigami.

It might be an interesting choice (and not without some foreshadowing) if Rukia were to have done it under someone else's control or simply because she needed to deal with a situation involving a powerful-to-her Hollow. It would not be the first time she's had to kill someone possessed by a Hollow, say -- and not the first member of Ichigo's family she's killed as we now know.

[Apollo]

Maybe it was Katagiri, jealous because Ryuuken couldn't get over her.

[IchigoKurosaki]

I honestly think that Ichigo's inner hollow awoke when he first discovered Grand Fisher. Since it was the awakening, Ichigo can't remember any of it. But it would sort of circle back and confirm what Ichigo said when he said "I killed my mother." I know it would be a horrible fate, but it's something that he blamed himself all the way up until he met Rukia.

Rukia also said "Did a hollow kill your mother?" and Ichigo said, "No, I killed her." (Paraphrasing) But if his inner hollow did kill her, it would confirm both of their theories in a way.

We've seen that Masaki is a pretty powerful Quincy, but how could she attack her son? Her firstborn? That might describe why she was on top of him when he came to. She died hugging him.

She died doing what she always did, protecting him.

[Herakles]

If Ichigo's inner Hollow awoke and killed Masaki, this would essentially mean the link between Isshin and Ichigo was severed before hand. That is assuming we have all the information on that though, but for Kubo to have Ichigo kill Masaki would most likely result in a broken Ichigo and he doesn't need that at the moment.

The reason Ichigo says he killed her is because he blamed himself for her death, the only theory is Rukia's speculation. Which is where Ichigo made his own conclusion that the Grandfisher did kill Masaki, despite the Grandfisher informing Ichigo that he doesn't remember anything from six years prior to their battle.

----Update----

Minerva and I were discussing the likelihood of our poll options in PM and out of the seven actually listed, only three of them make some sense given the current information we have.


Aizen, known of Ichigo from birth, had manipulated the fate of Ichigo's battles to further develop his power and opted to see where his experimentation with White and his uncontrollable variable Masaki would lead.


Mayuri, he'd been experimenting with the Quincy and he informed us that the few Quincy alive in the World of the Living were being monitored by the Shinigami - Masaki is a Quincy.


The Grandfisher, he was present the day she died and was in the general area of Ichigo and Masaki.

The unfortunate thing is those three candidates really don't constitute to the grand scheme/bigger picture for Ichigo.

Our protagonist has already had his bout with Aizen and he completely missed his chance to conceitedly boast his doings to Ichigo, that isn't like Aizen at all. Not to mention Isshin seemed to feel indifferent when battling him and Aizen did say Ichigo shouldn't have a reason to hate him.

Mayuri honestly accomplishes nothing and the Grandfisher killing Masaki is still highly ambiguous and has essentially been left an equivocation throughout Bleach.

Other than that, the Royal Guard/Soul King, Vandenreich, Gotei 13 and Kisuke really have nothing else to reaffirm the motivation/reason behind Masaki's death in contrast to the other's I mentioned.

This feels like CSI, so here's hoping for something completely unexpected! :cool:

[eljay]

I am starting to have that terrible gut feeling Kubo is about to troll us hard again...

If Rukia or Ginjou are involved in any way :elmo dear lordy if I see Rukia anywhere in this past-arc *insta-trolled*

Hell, even if its just Mayuri collecting her body, it'll feel like a troll.

And as for the SK option? *trolled by an unexpected fangasm* ...lel :D secretly I hope for this

Somewhat ironically, I feel Aizen will be the least trollworthy option, since that's just what we've come to expect from him.

But since he's got my vote, that'll enable Kubo to troll me badly tomorrow by delivering an aizen-sama-less chapter :p

[Minerva]

I think many of us expected something with Rukia in this arc to clear up the mystery of the forgotten visit to the human world. :XD That's a chunk of foreshadowing waiting to happen. I forgot about Ginjou though; he might be a good option, even if there's not a lot of foreshadowing for it.

I'm sure Kubo will make a good and interesting choice, in any case.

[Herakles]

I never actually took Ginjo into consideration, hmm I am not sure again how this would impact on Ichigo though. He already saved Ginjo after all.

Buuut, I forgot to mention, the only inkling we have on Yhwach in regard to Masaki's death, is that he knew of Maasaki and this was coincidently followed by the panel of her death.

Still doesn't create justification for his purpose in killing her, just as much as the RG/SK say for example. This is where the interesting elaboration and juicy bits come in.

:elmo

[Locke]

So, a few thoughts on who killed Masaki (or I guess evidence), when I look at everything people have posted. I have a feeling at the end of the day, Isshin was responsible for putting Masaki down, potentially using Engetsu. Much like how Rukia had to kill a hollowified Kaien.

1. She was attacked from behind.

Since Ichigo was in front of her, I seriously doubt that his inner hollow freaked out and took over or killed her. I also doubt it was Grand Fisher, since it was in front of both her and Ichigo, according to the scene. Then again, she could have gotten between Ichigo and started pushing him away when she was attacked. Interesting possibilities for this, though.

2. The attack doesn't really resemble a Hollow's.

The wounds generally created by Hollows have a funny pattern, but they don't seem to create a lot of jagged edges -- they seem to be composed of several obtuse inner angles, i.e. more "rounded." We see blood splattered and faded with the rain, but also the mark seems to be different from anything we've seen before. It isn't a typical Shinigami slash or Hollow attack.

I'd think this is either Kido or some non-close combat attack.

3. The attack appears to have slid across the right of her back, so this attack had to have a sweeping motion/momentum of some sort.

If it was a hollow bite or claw, it would have left a mark and had a different blood pool/splatter. So, it had to have been a Cero/Kido/etc.

4. The rain.

I think this may be the largest clue we have... It was raining that night, and that is always coordinated with Hollow's and Ichigo's regretful past. Could it have been White escaping/breaking loose? Maybe Ichigo's reiatsu was too strong (or was increasing at that moment) and slightly unbalanced Masaki and caused White to break free? In order for the "balance" to be restored, she died, but White got resealed inside Ichigo? Weird thoughts.

5. Isshin in the shadows at the end of the last chapter.

I have a feeling something happened and he had to kill her (or White). Typically when someone makes a big reveal like this (and they are responsible), they're cloaked in the shadows.

In any case, I think if we look at some of these pieces objectively, more theories might be capable of coming out. It sounds like we'll have all the answers we need, tomorrow, though.

[Herakles]

@Locke,

Your theory is thought out really well there and you break down and contrast a few examples to distinguish between a Hollow attack and something more.

The only problem is that Isshin regained his Shinigami powers for the first time in 20 years when his link with Ichigo was severed in the Soul Society. http://i995.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/bleach-4136907.jpg

[Minerva]

The panel in question:
http://i6.mangapanda.com/bleach/19/bleach-1586027.jpg

Cero don't leave blood trails, just burn marks. Most kidou blasts are the same, if I recall correctly. It's also not a series of defined sword-slashes or stab wounds. Her entire back is gouged open.
All the blood spray is on the right side. The attack swept left to right.
Her hair is flipped down over her back. The attack threw her and Ichigo causing her hair to move. If it was hanging down like that at the time of the attack, there would be blood/muck/other damage to her hair.
Her shoes are missing. Small thing, but what happened?
Ichigo is still there. Someone made Grand Fisher leave before devouring him.
We don't know what happened to Masaki's soul.


Someone large and/or tall swatted her aside with a lot of force and left her broken body and Ichigo. We do not know what happened to her soul. Does that about sum up the situation?

It's not a human. It's not from a Shinigami's zanpakutou unless it's a special attack. It may be a Hollow with a special attack. Have we ever seen a Quincy arrow hit without destroying the target completely?

[Herakles]

That's a great analysis Minerva, another thing is she has her arms wrapped around Ichigo. We knew from Ichigo's recount that she died protecting him from falling into the river, or so it appears. Then Ichigo concluded that it was the Grandfisher that had killed her.

Maybe our killer was aiming for Ichigo or trying to capture Ichigo and she happened to get in the way and take a hit?


Have we ever seen a Quincy arrow hit without destroying the target completely?
http://i30.mangapanda.com/bleach/483/bleach-3119315.jpg
Is that not a Quincy arrow? Because Sasukibe surely survived it without his body being obliterated if that's what you mean?

[Tom2rules]

http://i30.mangapanda.com/bleach/483/bleach-3119315.jpg
Is that not a Quincy arrow? Because Sasukibe surely survived it without his body being obliterated if that's what you mean?

Well they are trying to use Sasakibe as a example and enrage Yamamoto...and if you wanted to be technical about it, Driscoll's arrows were more like javelins or spears, which could impale someone much easier then a arrow.

Then again, Yammy has showed us that someone can be hit by a arrow and not be destroyed completely sine he was hit in the back by Uyru's arrow and it just got stuck in his shoulder (Although that is more about a single arrow not being enough to kill him and not the arrow destroying him on contact).

^http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v40/c343/16.html

[Black Mask]

The trolling I think will come as the culprit being more than one person.

I think Aizen will be the first to step in, leaving Masaki exhausted only to face Yhwach in the follow up.

In my opinion Aizen did the damage to Masaki's living body but Yhwach came to finish her off and take her soul.

Unless Masaki killed herself because she began to hollowfy.

[Locke]

@Herakles

What if he temporarily accessed his Shinigami powers? They wouldn't be "restored" at that point. They were temporarily restored. I think Isshin may be referring to the fact that they were permanently restored. What if, again, Ichigo caused an inbalance in Masaki and White got out, with Isshin having to destroy it? If Ichigo caused that inbalance, couldn't it also be possible that Isshin was inbalanced and was able to temporarily access his Shinigami powers?

Though, the attack looks more like a Quincy attack. I can't seen the Vandenreich being the murderers. I want them to be, because it would help push Ichigo towards siding with the Shinigami in the conflict. However, I have a feeling that Kubo wants to blur the line between who is good and bad, as he always does. The Arrancar even became somewhat sympathetic, just as the Vandenreich will be. If they killed Masaki, there will be no chance for them to be good in Ichigo's eyes -- there will be a permanent smear on them.

However, if Isshin were to have killed Masaki (out of necessity), that would cause Ichigo to potentially hate his Shinigami heritage and cause some good conflict. I know that lots of folks hate the entire Ichigo being angsty piece -- but there has to be conflict for him, personally, to develop further. I have a feeling that source will be Isshin, and could explain how Isshin kind of stays detached from Ichigo about details (when he could have said something VERY early on in the series). He knows that would cause Ichigo a lot of strife and made him unrelatably angsty.

Let's see what happens -- but using Engetsu to defeat the Hollow and unfortunately, also, sacrificing Masaki at the same time, could be her saying she thought he looked so cool with his bankai or something -- and perhaps that's his tribute at her grave? A little bit of fire? Who knows.

[Elementalist]

The Arrancar even became somewhat sympathetic, just as the Vandenreich will be. If they killed Masaki, there will be no chance for them to be good in Ichigo's eyes -- there will be a permanent smear on them.


That would actually be one of the points, as so far Bach has been presented to us as one of the most psychotic villains to date, even exceeding Aizen's brutality. The only sympathetic Quincy that we need are really Uryu, Ryuken, and Ichigo himself, though a few more like Haschwald may be presented that way down the line.

This would also be a very big push for Bach becoming the final antagonist of the manga should Kubo go that route (nothing is more personal than Ichigo's mother), and it brings things full circle for Masaki and her Quincy heritage to Ichigo.

As for the reason, it may be elaborate or entirely simple. Like said before, the Quincy could have "sacred rules" just as the Shinigami do, similar to how Rukia almost got executed for her so-called crime. It would not surprise me at all if Bach or Vandenreich considered Masaki a traitor to their people simply because of her marriage to Isshin (rather than Ryuken), and it would explain of how Bach knows about Ichigo's heritage and Masaki.

[B. Haddrell]

@ Elementalist

I don`t think the Vandenreich is behind Masaki`s death. First of all, it would be too suddenly and secondly, keeping in mind that the Quincies in the world of the living are an endangered species, the Vandenreich would punish Masaki by targeting Isshin but not her. On top of that Masaki had three children with Isshin. Why would the Vandenreich kill her afterwards?

But for the sake of argument, I want to follow your thought. The parallels would be interesting: If we don`t look at the details, roughly you could say that Shinigami killed Uryuu`s grandfather. Quincies would have killed Ichigo`s mother.

But would that really taint the Vandenreich forever? The Vandenreich is already very tainted as it is. If they or members of them are responsible for Masaki`s death, it would only turn them into an enemy with a very personal aftertaste. Uryuu learned that revenge is not the answer. He also learned not to hate Shinigami as a species but the individuals who are actually responsible for his loss. But he is in control now. I am sure he still hates Mayuri but he is even able to sacrifice his own sense of honour and accept his help if he feels it is beneficial.

The question right now is would the Shinigami be able to do the same? I don`t think Uryuu would be very welcome if he set foot into the Soul Society now. I am sure, a lot of Shinigami would hate him because he is a Quincy.

No matter what the Shinigami (or more accurately, some of them) would do to Uryuu, I don`t think he will revert to the path of self destruction he was on before he became Ichigo`s friend. He learned his lesson well.

Now that Isshin is nearly finished my hope is that Uryuu will finally learn the truth as well. He has been kept ignorant for far too long, even about the Vandenreich. I think one consequence is that Uryuu`s history will come out into the open as well (with some very interesting consequences) and Ichigo will follow Uryuu`s example if he didn`t come to the conclusion himself not to think of revenge but of justice – which is not the same.

[Minerva]

Maybe our killer was aiming for Ichigo or trying to capture Ichigo and she happened to get in the way and take a hit?
Ichigo was left alone as far as we know. Grand Fisher's lure was in front of him, Masaki ran after him. She was hit from behind, thrown aside, then left where she fell with Ichigo.

... I wonder if someone was targeting Grand Fisher and both of them got in the way. Another "happy accident" like Masaki getting in the way of Aizen's experiment with White?

It wasn't a Quincy because as shown, Quincy arrows and related attacks would go through the target. If it didn't destroy her outright, the arrow would still be there somewhere. Sample of damage from other known Quincy attacks:
http://i17.mangapanda.com/bleach/276/bleach-15051.jpg
Just burn-type damage, no bleeding. Kidou attacks do much the same:
http://i8.mangapanda.com/bleach/275/bleach-15041.jpg
A cero would do the same:
http://i40.mangapanda.com/bleach/292/bleach-2406627.jpg
That's not what we see though.

I wish we had a few different angles of that panel with Masaki. In the mean time the closest match I can find to what we see is this:
http://i29.mangapanda.com/bleach/336/bleach-2404757.jpg
What Ayon did to Rangiku when he ripped her side open. Shinigami attacks don't normally look like that. Neither do Quincy ones.

More Hollow attacks:
Rukia's shoulder ripped open.
http://i18.mangapanda.com/bleach/1/bleach-1585808.jpg

Leechbombs.
http://i11.mangapanda.com/bleach/10/bleach-1585902.jpg

Grimmjow attacking D-Roi.
http://i31.mangapanda.com/bleach/284/bleach-2406971.jpg

Probably a few more somewhere.

If it's not a Hollow, we're getting into things like Renji getting shredded by Senbonzakura:
http://i32.mangapanda.com/bleach/144/bleach-1588498.jpg
That's all specialty Shinigami attacks though. I couldn't imagine why Byakuya would be personally involved in this, for example. Other Shinigami who could do something similar, I can't imagine why they would be involved, etc. It's nothing some low-ranking Shinigami mook could do.

Realistically basing this on similarity of attack and such, it's probably a Hollow. It's not a special attack for them; all Hollows would be able to be do something similar. I don't know that it makes for an interesting story though that some random Hollow attacked and Masaki got in the way. :XD

[Tom2rules]

Just a idea, but what if a Quincy was involved but not directly? Hollow bait perhaps?

What if Grand Fisher was just the first to get there? He attacked Ichigo but Masaki defended him and made Grand Fisher back off. But while this happened, many more Hollows arrived and attacked. Masaki of course defended herself and Ichigo from these hollows and took out a large number of them, but in the confusion Grand Fisher reappeared and fatally wounded her.

As we saw at the start of this arc, a random large scale hollow attack can be caused by just a bit of hollow bait and maybe this is what drew not only Grand Fisher but other hollows as well that distracted Masaki and allowed GF to get a shot in on her. But who is the one who did this? This could easily give the Quincy idea some merit but also keep Grand Fisher as the one who killed her in the end.

While this does not give a reason as of yet, it could provide some scenario behind the incident.

(And Urahara could have discovered the bait at a later time and informed Isshin after the incident itself, giving him a clue at who could have been behind his wife's death along with the one who truly killed her).

[Herakles]

@Locke,

In theory one can speculate he temporarily acquired his Shinigami powers, it could even tie into why Isshin blames himself for Masaki's death and not just be more than just an emotional blame for being unable to save Masaki. But Isshin's specifically stated he regained them after 20 years, whether he had temporary access or not, that would still mean he regained his Shinigami power before hand. This would then be almost contradicting what he and Kisuke had said previously.

Though it is hard to speculate what type of attack this was, even Minerva's analysis would rule out some possibility while not limiting others. Shinigami are not the only entities that utilise swords as the Vandenreich and Arrancar have also been shown to use them.

[Black Mask]

Kubo trolled us hard again! Man never ceases to mind screw his fandom.

So the answear is that Masaki was killed by Grand Fisher following Aizen's plan because Yhwach stole her powers from afar.

You done it again KT, many "HEARTS" to you sir.

[Herakles]

Hehehe, so Grandfisher being left an equivocation was definitely the right choice I think, despite the fact that my theories were wrong - he was finally confirmed to be the perpetrator given the previous inference and this was all in consequence of Yhwach's great power larceny.

The speculation was fun guys! :cool:

[Serocco]

We now know.

It really was Grand Fisher who killed her, but it was only because of Yhwach taking her Blut Vene that it was possible.

I think it's time to close this thread.

[Mcnubins]

Yep. Case closed.

[Minerva]

Hey, at least the evidence was clear that a Hollow was her direct cause of death. :elmo That's something. Good planning, Kubo.

[Black Mask]

Who wanna bet Aizen send Grand Fisher after Ichigo exactly because he knew Yhwach would be ressurected that day?

I mean, Ichigo was said to never have seen a hollow in his entire life until the day his mother died and not again until Rukia appeared.

Given that Aizen controlled Hueco Mundo at the time of Masaki's death, the coincidence is too great to be unintentional.

In essence, Masaki was a victim of Aizen and Yhwach with Grand Fisher acting more or less like a gun which trigger they pulled.

[Sariniste]

Who wanna bet Aizen send Grand Fisher after Ichigo exactly because he knew Yhwach would be ressurected that day?

I mean, Ichigo was said to never have seen a hollow in his entire life until the day his mother died and not again until Rukia appeared.

Given that Aizen controlled Hueco Mundo at the time of Masaki's death, the coincidence is too great to be unintentional.

In essence, Masaki was a victim of Aizen and Yhwach with Grand Fisher acting more or less like a gun which trigger they pulled.
Ah, this is a good point, Black Mask... we (and Ichigo) may still not know the full truth behind Masaki's death. It may be premature to close this thread... ;)

[Elementalist]

That is still honestly a reaching theory, and on top of that why would Aizen target only Masaki if he were afraid of Bach's revival? Theoretically he would be after them all to prevent the power process from being complete.

I don't think theres any more to it than what Isshin already said. Not saying that Aizen knew nothing of Bach because I'm not sure, but he certainly didn't act like he did during his war with Soul Society.

Will close this thread soon, unless theres any further objections.

[Bala de Impacto]

Before you do, let me say my peace, good theory there B.M., but for now, let's just give the full credit to Bach, and let's leave Aizen in his cell for the time being and out of the story until an actual connection between him and Bach's plot actually happens, cool?

[Mcnubins]

Ahhh, the Aizen's a clairvoyant god thing. I find it hard to believe that Aizen had anything to do with after this chapter. I find it virtually impossible to believe that he knew that Bach would come alive that day. 110 years ago he didn't even know the RG existed, how could he know that there was a sleeping giant in another dimension that was going to wake exactly on that day, at that time? I'm sure he watched, I'm sure he was aware as it happened, I'm sure he took serious note, but I'm also sure he didn't have any part in it. There is the possibility he did send GF to attack Ichigo, but it didn't have anything to do with Bach. If you want to have a discussion about Aizen and if he knew about Bach or not, that is fine but it should likely be a thread unto itself. For the purpose of this thread we know who killed Masaki and we know how it was able to.

[Elementalist]

Yeah, its better for the theories thread. For now though since this seems to be it for our long waited mystery, putting this to rest. :)