Ichigo's Quincy Powers and Shinigami Powers (Theory)

[Ryoma]

Okay, so I've had a theory for a while and I believe the latest chapter has backed up my theory with a bit of grounding.

Statement: I believe Ichigo's Quincy Powers were active (but untrained and not quite as active as when he fought Juha Bach) during the prologue of Bleach up until he received Soul Reaper powers from Rukia.

One fact we need to understand before we get onto the evidence.

-In the Dangai, Ichigo trained to the highest level of Shinigami, therefore maximizing their potential (as far as we know). Yamamoto has done the same, to be clear.

Okay, so now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's look at some new information that Kisuke just revealed to us.

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/58-535.0/compressed/q012.jpg?v=11366766772

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/58-535.0/compressed/q015.jpg?v=11366766772

-In order to counteract Hollowfication, he needed to inject human properties into her (that sounds wrong :p).
-Quincy and Shinigami are opposite forces Reiatsu wise.

Juha Bach also says something interesting.

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/53-514.0/compressed/r010.jpg?v=11351660266

In other words, Kirge's Reiatsu affected his dormant Quincy powers after Ichigo released all of his Reiatsu as a Shinigami.

So I propose that Ichigo's passive Quincy powers were suppressed when Rukia transferred her powers to him.

Let's look at something from the first chapter, shall we?

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/01-001.0/compressed/Bleach_01_01_22.jpg?v=11192377615
http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/01-001.0/compressed/Bleach_01_01_23.jpg?v=11192377615
http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/01-001.0/compressed/Bleach_01_01_51.jpg?v=11192377615

The one who confused Rukia's senses was Ichigo. If Ichigo's Reiatsu interfered with Rukia's, doesn't it make sense that an opposite force would interfere, not a similar force? I assert that Ichigo's Quincy side interfered with Rukia's reiatsu.

Incidentally, when Ichigo became a Shinigami, Rukia realized who was clouding her senses.

One more thing from the first chapter.

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/01-001.0/compressed/Bleach_01_01_27.jpg?v=11192377615
http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/01-001.0/compressed/Bleach_01_01_35.jpg?v=11192377615

What Rukia is saying, is that no human can simply break Bakudo or have that kind of Reiatsu. So, this not only foreshadowed Ichigo having some powers, this makes sense now that he is a Quincy. A Quincy SHOULD be able to defeat a weak Bakudo. Once again, I assert that Ichigo's Quincy side allowed him to bust out of Bakudo 1.


In conclusion: If we take the "opposite forces" information from Kisuke and apply it across the board, we have evidence of Ichigo's passive Quincy abilities being shown from the beginning. If Kubo planned that, I tip my hat to him, seriously.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

[Herakles]

In theory, your explanation fits quite well. Considering that Ichigo didn't have a Shinigami body until Rukia transferred her powers to him, Ichigo should have been attached to his human body by a Soul Chain. This is also reaffirmed by the fact that, when Byakuya removed Rukia's power from Ichigo and he began the Shattered Shaft - Kisuke had ejected Ichigo's soul out of his body and Tessai shattered the Soul Chain connecting him to it.

So based on your theory, his Shinigami powers should have been dormant like Zangetsu explained. Considering that his Shinigami body didn't existed until he did the Shattered Shaft after losing Rukia's power, we can logically determine it should not have existed before he received Rukia's power as well. When reflecting on Yhwach's statement about his Quincy powers dormancy, it almost correlates perfectly aside from the fact that we never had a time frame as to whether his Quincy powers were dormant upon birth or not.

So you have a very likely explanation here. This is also the most I have ever seen RyomaZero write about Bleach. http://f.mfcdn.net/images/smilies/sneaky.gif

[Saiyan5ninetail]

I assume that it is something that he himself wanted to write about.

The basis of the theory does make sense in a certain context. Ichigo has only used his Shinigami powers in his spirit form, so it would be logical that the power dormant in his Human form would be Quincy, even if no visible signs existed until Ichigo exhausted his Shinigami powers in Quilge's cage and subsequently drew in Quincy reiatsu, which in turn awakened his Quincy powers fully.

[Ryoma]

Thank you both for your input and everyone who has given me positive reputation. I appreciate it.

[Skiltron]

Rukia failing to sense Ichigo's reiatsu is a matter of dimension, like when Aizen failed to sense him.

[Ryoma]

Rukia failing to sense Ichigo's reiatsu is a matter of dimension, like when Aizen failed to sense him.

She could sense Ichigo's Reiatsu.

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/01-001.0/compressed/Bleach_01_01_35.jpg?v=11192377615

There's no way Ichigo could be a dimension above a Soul Reaper in Chapter 1, even with Quincy powers.

[Skiltron]

There's no way Ichigo could be a dimension above a Soul Reaper in Chapter 1, even with Quincy powers.

Human + Shinigami. Ichigo has always been so.

Quincy power doesn't count as a Dimension. Quincy and fullbringer are different states of a human being, not a whole different thing.

[Herakles]

Doesn't change the fact that Rukia could feel Ichigo's spiritual energy where his Shinigami powers were dormant until Rukia stabbed her sword through Ichigo's chest.

Which is what this thread is discussing, what accounts for that Spiritual Energy? The power of a Quincy seems most likely.

[igge]

But his Quincy powers were not active at the time. Nor were any of his other powers.

[Herakles]

But his Quincy powers were not active at the time. Nor were any of his other powers.

He had high spiritual energy, the OP proposed that his Quincy powers were active but repressed by Rukia's Shinigami powers. What's more is, I already concluded that Ichigo wouldn't have had a Shinigami body before Rukia made him a substitute anyway.

[athe_light]

From what I understand, you are saying that Ichigo unconsciously emits Quincy reiatsu when Rukia first encountered him, correct?
It is probable that this is what interferes with Rukia's sensing, if Kubo really does planned this whole opposite beings all along.

Shouldn't Uryu, a Quincy notices the similarity in terms of their reiatsu, before Ichigo gets his Shinigami powers from rukia?
He knows that Ichigo somehow gains Shinigami powers on the way, so I don't think he wouldn't a care if a person was radiating reiatsu from a supposedly vanished race. They are both in the same class after all.

Just my two cents. :)

[Andygoesrawr]

From what I understand, you are saying that Ichigo unconsciously emits Quincy reiatsu when Rukia first encountered him, correct?
It is probable that this is what interferes with Rukia's sensing, if Kubo really does planned this whole opposite beings all along.

Shouldn't Uryu, a Quincy notices the similarity in terms of their reiatsu, before Ichigo gets his Shinigami powers from rukia?
He knows that Ichigo somehow gains Shinigami powers on the way, so I don't think he wouldn't a care if a person was radiating reiatsu from a supposedly vanished race. They are both in the same class after all.

Just my two cents. :)

Well, when Uryu used Reiraku, his ribbon did not have a special colour like Ichigo's Shinigami one did. That doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a regular spiritually aware human and a Quincy, but it's probable. It's also probable that his ribbon just wasn't shown, but who knows.

[athe_light]

Well, when Uryu used Reiraku, his ribbon did not have a special colour like Ichigo's Shinigami one did. That doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a regular spiritually aware human and a Quincy, but it's probable. It's also probable that his ribbon just wasn't shown, but who knows.

I don't remember Ichigo emitting one when he tried to look for Shibata. That's why we didn't see Uryu's, since he was the one sensing, not ichigo.

edit : Or, you know, Kubo didn't really think about all of this when he first started Bleach. He might have the idea of Ichigo being all sorts of hybrid, but didn't really pay attention to all these small details. :)

[Andygoesrawr]

I don't remember Ichigo emitting one when he tried to look for Shibata. That's why we didn't see Uryu's, since he was the one sensing, not ichigo.

edit : Or, you know, Kubo didn't really think about all of this when he first started Bleach. He might have the idea of Ichigo being all sorts of hybrid, but didn't really pay attention to all these small details. :)

This is true. That's why I said it's possible that Uryu's just wasn't shown (because he was the one using the technique).

I think Kubo did have it in mind, considering Reiraku is apparently a technique that only high-level Shinigami can use, but apparently Quincies can use it with ease.

[mlickko]

Sorry to burst your bubble but you have to take into account the know facts first.

I don't mean that his Quincy powers may have been active and his Shinigami powers dormant at the beggining but!

No Quincy emits reiatsu. They are spiritually aware humans that can draw and manipulate reiyroku from the area around them. I don't think that even once it was mentioned that Quincys emit any kind of reiatsu.

[Saiyan5ninetail]

Sorry to burst your bubble but you have to take into account the know facts first.

I don't mean that his Quincy powers may have been active and his Shinigami powers dormant at the beggining but!

No Quincy emits reiatsu. They are spiritually aware humans that can draw and manipulate reiyroku from the area around them. I don't think that even once it was mentioned that Quincys emit any kind of reiatsu.

Mayuri commented on the explosive increase of Uryu's reiatsu when he used Letzt Stil. In other words, Quincy do emit reiatsu when they use their powers. But it is understandable why you think this because of the comments Inoue made on not being able to sense Quilge's reiatsu when he was using Vollstandig.

The Vollstandig allows the Quincy to absorb even the reiatsu they release back into themselves like a continuous current, and is an artificial augmentation of the Quincy's power to absorb reishi that results in their changed physical appearance.

The Sanrei Glove, on the other hand, focuses as a weight that repels/deflects spirit particles and makes it harder to form a bow when wearing it. A Quincy who can make a bow and keep it from disappearing for seven days and seven nights reaches the pinnacle of the power of the Quincy. Taking off the Sanrei Glove awakens the Letzt Stil, a form that represents the pinnacle of the power of the Quincy at the cost of one's own power. It does not physically alter the appearance of the Quincy the same way Vollstandig was, and the arrows are more powerful by a vast scale.

Just by comparing the two, the arrows of the Vollstandig used by Quilge are weaker than the arrows used by Uryu in Letzt Stil. Quilge informed us that the Blut Arterie is necessary for a Quincy's attack to hold against a Bankai, even in Vollstandig, but one arrow of Uryu's Letzt Stil effortlessly punched through Konjiki Ashisogi Jizo and still had enough power to blast a gaping hole into Mayuri's body.

If there is only one thing the Vollstandig is superior to the Letzt Stil in, it is the fact Quincy do not lose their powers upon using it.

- - - Updated - - -


This is true. That's why I said it's possible that Uryu's just wasn't shown (because he was the one using the technique).

I think Kubo did have it in mind, considering Reiraku is apparently a technique that only high-level Shinigami can use, but apparently Quincies can use it with ease.

This is an interesting point. To top it off, Ichigo did so in his Human body. In other words, Ichigo's Quincy powers have been there in some shape or form, influencing his powers as a Shinigami in the same way his Hollow powers have influenced his Shinigami powers. Remember what Ulquiorra said about Ichigo's Black Getsuga resembling a Black Cero? That is because the nature of Ichigo's Getsuga was influenced by his Hollow side. While his father has a flame-based Getusga Tenshou, Ichigo's Getsuga is one of pure spiritual power like a Menos' Cero.

[mlickko]

Mayuri commented on the explosive increase of Uryu's reiatsu when he used Letzt Stil. In other words, Quincy do emit reiatsu when they use their powers. But it is understandable why you think this because of the comments Inoue made on not being able to sense Quilge's reiatsu when he was using Vollstandig.

The Vollstandig allows the Quincy to absorb even the reiatsu they release back into themselves like a continuous current, and is an artificial augmentation of the Quincy's power to absorb reishi that results in their changed physical appearance.

The Sanrei Glove, on the other hand, focuses as a weight that repels/deflects spirit particles and makes it harder to form a bow when wearing it. A Quincy who can make a bow and keep it from disappearing for seven days and seven nights reaches the pinnacle of the power of the Quincy. Taking off the Sanrei Glove awakens the Letzt Stil, a form that represents the pinnacle of the power of the Quincy at the cost of one's own power. It does not physically alter the appearance of the Quincy the same way Vollstandig was, and the arrows are more powerful by a vast scale.

Just by comparing the two, the arrows of the Vollstandig used by Quilge are weaker than the arrows used by Uryu in Letzt Stil. Quilge informed us that the Blut Arterie is necessary for a Quincy's attack to hold against a Bankai, even in Vollstandig, but one arrow of Uryu's Letzt Stil effortlessly punched through Konjiki Ashisogi Jizo and still had enough power to blast a gaping hole into Mayuri's body.

If there is only one thing the Vollstandig is superior to the Letzt Stil in, it is the fact Quincy do not lose their powers upon using it.



No, I never took Orihime's statement about not being able to feel Quilge's reiatsu as the base of my proof.

In his fight with Mayuri, said person never said he felt Uryu emitting reiatsu. The only thing he stated after Uryu used Letz Still is that his spiritual energy 'inflated' what I understand as not emitting more reiatsu, more like his absorbtion of reishi increased so much that it served as an inflated bubble all around him. You can clearly see that Uryu in that form could control spiritrons, adding them to his attacks in such huge amount it actually inflated the area of spiritrons around him.

Everything else you said I agree and is known, but I strongly disagree with the saying that Quincy emit reiatsu.

[Saiyan5ninetail]

...Do you even realize how contradictory your statement is?

If Quincy do not emit reiatsu at all, Mayuri should not have sensed anything because spiritual pressure is how spiritual beings are able to sense other spiritual beings! Spiritual power is the spiritual energy store in the individual's body, while spiritual pressure is the pressure emitted by that spiritual power. It does not matter which spiritual race it is, all of them emit reiatsu without exception!

Have you even been reading this manga? In chapter 494, the reishi investigator with Kira's squad detected Quincy reiatsu inside the pillasr of blue flames the Stern Ritter arrived in! If the Quincy did not emit reiatsu, then how come that member of the reishi investigation team was able to detect the reiatsu of a Quincy inside the pillar?

[athe_light]

No, I never took Orihime's statement about not being able to feel Quilge's reiatsu as the base of my proof.

In his fight with Mayuri, said person never said he felt Uryu emitting reiatsu. The only thing he stated after Uryu used Letz Still is that his spiritual energy 'inflated' what I understand as not emitting more reiatsu, more like his absorbtion of reishi increased so much that it served as an inflated bubble all around him. You can clearly see that Uryu in that form could control spiritrons, adding them to his attacks in such huge amount it actually inflated the area of spiritrons around him.

Everything else you said I agree and is known, but I strongly disagree with the saying that Quincy emit reiatsu.

http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/484/6

Yamamoto said otherwise. He felt that the VR reiatsu disappeared when the invaders escaped to the Shadow Realm.

[Ryoma]

I think that pretty much settles it. Quincies absolutely can and do emit Reiatsu. And it seems most likely that the Reiatsu that Ichigo released was not of Shinigami, but of his passive Quincy roots.

Basically, the reason that Ichigo's Quincy powers have never shown up again till now is because of how powerful his Soul Reaper powers had grown. The opposite force of Shinigami suppressed his Quincy. Now that his Shinigami powers exhausted, Kirge's Jail awoke those memories that had been suppressed.

[mlickko]

...Do you even realize how contradictory your statement is?

If Quincy do not emit reiatsu at all, Mayuri should not have sensed anything because spiritual pressure is how spiritual beings are able to sense other spiritual beings! Spiritual power is the spiritual energy store in the individual's body, while spiritual pressure is the pressure emitted by that spiritual power. It does not matter which spiritual race it is, all of them emit reiatsu without exception!

Have you even been reading this manga? In chapter 494, the reishi investigator with Kira's squad detected Quincy reiatsu inside the pillasr of blue flames the Stern Ritter arrived in! If the Quincy did not emit reiatsu, then how come that member of the reishi investigation team was able to detect the reiatsu of a Quincy inside the pillar?

I think I didn't say it clearly, sorry.
I'm not saying that Quincy do not posses reiatsu...Of course they posses it, I'm just saying they are not emitting it.
Emitting means pushing it out of their body. What I'm saying is that since they are Quincy and use manipulation of reishi from outside source, they are drawing it to them, not excluding it out.
Basically, they have reiatsu of their own but they are keeping it in side of their body.
Thet's why they can be felt. Every soul can be felt since it's made from reishi. The more it has the more it can be felt.

About Mayuri...he's a crazy scientist who modified his own body. I'm sure as hell he did something to himself so that he could sense more.

Well, maybe I understood how Quincy works differently as you did.
Just remember we are just discussing and I'm only disagreeing. You don't have to bite my head off :D

[Andygoesrawr]

I think I didn't say it clearly, sorry.
I'm not saying that Quincy do not posses reiatsu...Of course they posses it, I'm just saying they are not emitting it.
Emitting means pushing it out of their body. What I'm saying is that since they are Quincy and use manipulation of reishi from outside source, they are drawing it to them, not excluding it out.
Basically, they have reiatsu of their own but they are keeping it in side of their body.
Thet's why they can be felt. Every soul can be felt since it's made from reishi. The more it has the more it can be felt.

Reiatsu is basically the rate at which Reiryoku is emitted from the body. If there is Reiatsu, that means there is Reiryoku being emitted. And Quincies must emit Reiryoku, considering that is what they mix with Reishi torn from the environment in order to create their weapons. If they don't emit anything, they can't do anything.

[mlickko]

Reiatsu is basically the rate at which Reiryoku is emitted from the body. If there is Reiatsu, that means there is Reiryoku being emitted. And Quincies must emit Reiryoku, considering that is what they mix with Reishi torn from the environment in order to create their weapons. If they don't emit anything, they can't do anything.

Bah!
I would be happy to read something like guidebook for this cause my head feels like a baloon right now. :D

[Andygoesrawr]

Bah!
I would be happy to read something like guidebook for this cause my head feels like a baloon right now. :D

The Bleach Wiki!!! The Reiatsu and Reiryoku sections were rewritten a couple of months ago, and now have the most accurate and in-depth information I've seen. I have actually written a bit of a guide on the difference between Reiatsu, Reiryoku and Reishi, but that was before the Wiki pages were rewritten. They basically say the same thing as I wrote, but a lot more.

[Ryoma]

I would like to bring this topic back up with the release of Chapter 536. So, Isshin has confirmed something that even further backs this theory in my opinion.

http://img.mangastream.com/m/53/10805472/5555f65bd567210d87818fe784e9b7f6.png
http://img.mangastream.com/m/53/10805472/c94d3edc76dc33f01f3b80e43937e074.png

Two things have been definitively confirmed by Isshin.

-Ichigo's Shinigami powers were NOT active until Rukia stabbed him.
-His Hollow powers were also not active by any means.

So once again, Chapter 1 Ichigo's power looks more and more like passive Quincy until he awoke his Shinigami powers.

[Chimera Cord]

Isshin spoke of Rukia's power awakening the Shinigami powers in his blood. That sounds exactly the same as what happened when Ichigo drew in some of Opie's reiatsu to awaken his Quincy powers.

But when Ichigo took in Rukia's Shinigami powers, all he got was his own version of her power. Which ended up being just a larger version of her own sword. If that's the case, then the only reason Ichigo has Blut Vene may be because Opie had Blut Vene.


It's unclear what would happen if Ichigo had developed his own power while he was still using the power Rukia gave him, but it looks like we'll have to sort through this later if Ichigo tries to develop his own Quincy powers without getting rid of the powers Opie gave him.

[Andygoesrawr]

Isshin spoke of Rukia's power awakening the Shinigami powers in his blood. That sounds exactly the same as what happened when Ichigo drew in some of Opie's reiatsu to awaken his Quincy powers.

But when Ichigo took in Rukia's Shinigami powers, all he got was his own version of her power. Which ended up being just a larger version of her own sword. If that's the case, then the only reason Ichigo has Blut Vene may be because Opie had Blut Vene.


It's unclear what would happen if Ichigo had developed his own power while he was still using the power Rukia gave him, but it looks like we'll have to sort through this later if Ichigo tries to develop his own Quincy powers without getting rid of the powers Opie gave him.

The only reason Ichigo "got his own version of Rukia's power" is because he used Rukia's Asauchi. The only similarity between Ichigo's Zanpakuto and Rukia's is the guard. Ichigo's actually gained the strings tied on the end like Isshin's, meaning that he still customized it when he imprinted on it. Have we ever been lead to believe that a Zanpakuto's guard changes when a person imprints on an Asauchi? Tosen's didn't change at all.

Ichigo never used any of Rukia's powers. No Kido, no Zanpakuto abilities. All he had which was hers is her Asauchi.

To your last point: when Ichigo gained his own Shinigami powers through the Shattered Shaft training, he regained the Asauchi that he took off Rukia. Then he developed them further to be able to release his Shikai. He did not have "Rukia's powers".

[Chimera Cord]

The only reason Ichigo "got his own version of Rukia's power" is because he used Rukia's Asauchi. The only similarity between Ichigo's Zanpakuto and Rukia's is the guard. Ichigo's actually gained the strings tied on the end like Isshin's, meaning that he still customized it when he imprinted on it. Have we ever been lead to believe that a Zanpakuto's guard changes when a person imprints on an Asauchi? Tosen's didn't change at all.

Ichigo never used any of Rukia's powers. No Kido, no Zanpakuto abilities. All he had which was hers is her Asauchi.

To your last point: when Ichigo gained his own Shinigami powers through the Shattered Shaft training, he regained the Asauchi that he took off Rukia. Then he developed them further to be able to release his Shikai. He did not have "Rukia's powers".

That's a theory. Unlike with Tousen, Rukia didn't give Ichigo her sword. She gave him her power.

The asauchi is not a Shinigami's own power so there's no reason it should have "left" Rukia along with her own spiritual energy. This means that, after recovering her own powers, Rukia's sword would have also returned to her. So how is it possible that two different Shinigami are using the same asauchi at the same time? How can the sword lie with both Rukia and Ichigo?

It seems that the sword Ichigo used was based on Rukia's reiryoku and so it took the form of her own Zanpakuto. The strings on the end of the sword could easily just be Ichigo's own Shinigami power that was activated when Rukia gave him her power.


You're trying to reason this based on asauchi even though we know that Ichigo has been using Shinigami powers without one this whole time.