2008 American Presidential Elections [Archive]

cornflakes

08-24-2008, 03:03 AM

:notrust Actually, no. I'm dead fucking serious. I don't like either candidate and I have not liked any candidates for the past few elections. It's the duty of a citizen to vote, right? Well, I'm voting for the one that I think can do the job better and between an underqualified guy and a war vet who said and I quote "We are going to win this war and we are going to win it the old fashioned way- by winning it!", I'm sorry, but I don't have confidence in either.
:uhuh That's why I asked. 'Cos if you don't vote you don't get to complain. ;)

Doesn't the US have a financial deposit from candidates that they then get back if they get more than x number of votes? I know at least that my country and the UK does that, to cut down on crackpot candidates and the "just-for-shits-'n-giggles" types.

obama seems to be a little empty on ideals and ideas, now i am not an american and i dont watch american news as much as i watch other news but from what i hear its seems that obama (never mind how wonderful his personal name is) changes his prespective on things every couple of days while Mccain keeping his stand no matter how much people dont like it.
it seems to me that having a firm stand and not bending to the whims of the people and the wavering popularity is important to a leader.
Yep, that's a major thorn on the side for me. Every time he sells out to accomodate yet another vocal minority, he's kicking those Obamacrats who've supported him from day one in the balls. Not sure if I can consider myself an Obamacrat, but I've supported his run almost since he first made news.

But meh, when all's said and done, he's still my choice. I mean, looking back, the track record for honesty has been pretty abysmal: Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan...... :facepalm

♠ Saint ♠

08-24-2008, 03:43 AM

:uhuh That's why I asked. 'Cos if you don't vote you don't get to complain. ;)

Doesn't the US have a financial deposit from candidates that they then get back if they get more than x number of votes? I know at least that my country and the UK does that, to cut down on crackpot candidates and the "just-for-shits-'n-giggles" types.

Ahh, here I thought you were lambasting me. I'd rather vote for myself than for someone I don't believe for the sake of voting. I see your game. :XD

But I don't think so. I think they rely on party contributions primarily and whatever lobby groups give them. And provate donors. It's kinda sick really. I remember getting mail from the Democratic party asking if I wanted to donate. After that, I switched to the Independant party.

earthforge

08-24-2008, 07:43 AM

See my posts in the previous thread.

cornflakes:
Your reasoning simply falls through in that you have fallen for a "black vs. white" belief in the issues. That is considered a fallacy, so rationalizing it out it is the exact reason why you would never support Obama: he simplifies everything too much. The world simply can never be black and white. It is complex, cause as the human knowledge and integrity grows, the interactions become more complex, leading to a more complex state of the world.

It is also a false dilemna. You talk of new vs. old, and I agree McCain's policies are middleground and have been done, however that doesn't make Obama new. In fact, his campaign bears an uncanny resemblance to McCarthy's campaigns. Including mainly the use of the bandwagon fallacy and creation of a political celebrity. That strategy has gone even further back.

The AP analysis of it basically read Obama's choice of VP as the Obama camp being afraid. They are trying to capture the fall-out republicans and the Hillary democrats. However, it doesn't change much. They usually don't delegate a vice-president to do foreign policy meetings. It is the president who must meet with the leaders, and it'll still be inexperienced Obama.

Also, tell me how Clinton screwed up and was abyssmal. Aside from the stupid Monica Lewinski scandal, I doubt you can tell me how he was abyssmal. He revived the gas prices and economy. It was the idiotic american public who got Bush in office, not Clinton. So I would like you to put that whole "dynasty of awefulness" fantasyaway, because it's (1) illogical and (2) painful to hear all the time.

Shdo: Agreed, very much. You really know the American newspapers have gone nuts when they talk about Bigfoot in the headlines instead of Russia making threats (which make headlines in papers such as the Times Online.)

Ceria: *sigh* We are getting another Bush. He just is in the inverse sheep's clothing. And stop insulting Hillary. Your sounding just as misogynistic as the average Obamamite I see in the comments on NYT and SFGate.

Saint: Yep, agreed. My parents made the switch as well, and they've been voting democrat for over a decade. Hell, my grandpa was a loyal democrat. However, this election is not about the democrats or the republicans. It is based on how extensive your opponent's collection of pantsuits and ties, when it should be based on foreign policy and the economy.

Shdo

08-24-2008, 07:59 AM

the american media is problematic at best, never ending debates about the elections and when they do have time to start talking about something else it tends to be about health problems.

how much coverage did the georgian conflict (who might pull the entier western world into a war in a year or two) or the countless other things that happend? this all elections became more like a band tour and selling a product.
people forgetting that this is about chosing the man who will control your country life (and the world) and not somekind of game. a man must have a firm beliefs and not going with the flow and changing his POV every other week to attract more voices.

♠ Saint ♠

08-24-2008, 08:28 AM

Also, tell me how Clinton screwed up and was abyssmal. Aside from the stupid Monica Lewinski scandal, I doubt you can tell me how he was abyssmal. He revived the gas prices and economy. It was the idiotic american public who got Bush in office, not Clinton. So I would like you to put that whole "dynasty of awefulness" fantasyaway, because it's (1) illogical and (2) painful to hear all the time.

I don't see where he screwed up except for lying about it. So our President got a little nookie on the side, so what? Big freaking deal. I bet you that half the people ridiculing him had extramarital affairs as well and the other half wish they had the cojones to do it. Seriously. If I could, I'd have Clinton in for another term or two.

Shadoblak

08-24-2008, 08:33 AM

Seriously. If I could, I'd have Clinton in for another term or two.

God that would be awesome wouldn't it?
16 years of Bill Clinton?
..I miss having an economy...

cornflakes

08-24-2008, 01:58 PM

cornflakes:
Your reasoning simply falls through in that you have fallen for a "black vs. white" belief in the issues. That is considered a fallacy, so rationalizing it out it is the exact reason why you would never support Obama: he simplifies everything too much. The world simply can never be black and white. It is complex, cause as the human knowledge and integrity grows, the interactions become more complex, leading to a more complex state of the world.
Eh? Read my post again please, I said I didn't think it was black vs. white.

It is also a false dilemna. You talk of new vs. old, and I agree McCain's policies are middleground and have been done, however that doesn't make Obama new. In fact, his campaign bears an uncanny resemblance to McCarthy's campaigns. Including mainly the use of the bandwagon fallacy and creation of a political celebrity. That strategy has gone even further back.
Why stop at McCarthy? Go on ahead, fullfil Godwin's Law and cite Hitler. You know, Hitler was for big business, therefore big business is evil, that sort of thing.

And stop insulting Hillary. Your sounding just as misogynistic as the average Obamamite I see in the comments on NYT and SFGate.
So if disparaging Hillary is misogynistic, doesn't that make you a racist for disparaging Obama? :headscratch

Also, tell me how Clinton screwed up and was abyssmal. Aside from the stupid Monica Lewinski scandal, I doubt you can tell me how he was abyssmal. He revived the gas prices and economy. It was the idiotic american public who got Bush in office, not Clinton. So I would like you to put that whole "dynasty of awefulness" fantasyaway, because it's (1) illogical and (2) painful to hear all the time.
But meh, when all's said and done, he's still my choice. I mean, looking back, the track record for honesty has been pretty abysmal: Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan...... :facepalm
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman...." :learn

Otherwise, I'd agree that he was a pretty good bloke. Knee-jerk reaction much?

Saint: I was talking about, say, if I decide to run for mayor today, I'll need to pay a cash deposit, say, $5000. If I get more than, say, 1000 votes, I get my $5000 back, but otherwise I forfeit my deposit. Not sure if that have it in the US, they have it in Malaysia and the UK though.

Inevitable.Exit

08-25-2008, 07:49 PM

Meh. Neither candidate is strong once again as I've said before. With 'Rambo' McCain you get a brash individual who has 0 connection with the middle class ("If you make under 5 million you are middle class" lolwut?) and a militarist individual. To his credit however, he has Washington experience and good foreign policy experience (bad policies however). But he knows zip about the economy...like seriously I think I know more about economics than Rambo. I still remember when he was campaigning early on and someone asked him a question about the economy and he said he would "have to read up on that"...Wow. Sadly, if McCain picks a strong VP who knows the economy, and doesn't piss off the conservatives more than McCain already has, he will win this election :\.

With Obama you get someone who can rightfully rep the middle class. He is willing to try diplomacy (not appeasement) as a first step. However, he has a lack of Washington experience, is fairly young. I believe his recent flip-flops are not due to some lack of morality or belief, but rather because he is a young politician and still has some to learn. His ideas are new. New doesn't always mean just created. "I got this new shirt from the goodwill". A new-old shirt. His ideas are something that many haven't seen since they've been alive. Thats why his ideas are new and 'creative'. With Biden as his VP he gets instant foreign policy cred so I think he should shoot up in points a bit.

In my case, I find neither candidate overly strong. They both have equal bad and good points. I support Obama because I don't believe a militarist is good for America right now. We need to work on focusing on our economy and restoring the world's opinion of us. Because it IS important. As much as it hurts me to say it, we need to make-up with the French. We need to increase Israel's strength in their region by supplying them better weapons (Giving them the new JSF earlier than most is a big help). We need to start finding new Allies as well. You look at how Russia seems to be bringing in its own group (Venezuela, Syria, Iran [to an extent], and China). I believe we need to strengthen NATO (will be VITAL when oil starts getting low. Although we will more than likely be dead), and eliminate the free trade agreements we have that are hurting the middle class. We need to strengthen our (southern) borders as well.

I'd like to point out that people shouldn't look at poll numbers as concrete evidence of who will win. Remember, the election is based off of the electoral college and NOT popular vote.

TLDR: Obama in 08' because he isn't a militarist and has shown more knowledge of economic process.

ookami

08-26-2008, 02:22 AM

♠ Saint ♠

08-26-2008, 03:23 AM

I'd say Obama believe it or not but the whole world is interested in this because they don't want another George bush holding the button that sets off all the nukes. My opinion is that Obama as a black man living in america has struggled and is everything right for president because he has felt the pain because hes black and don't defend this because Racism in america was bad it was bad in england and it was bad in india it was bad in china the list goes on. I think its more fair that the vote stands for the persons Ideas and views and not the colour of their skin.

You do know that Obama has a white grandmother, yes?

So Hispanics have not struggled? Native Americans have not struggled (don't get me started on lands' rights. The Native Americans were treated like shit even longer than the African slave trade was even around, including my patrilineal ancestors!)? Please. Everyone struggles. It's been many years since the immortal "I have a dream speech" and the potent issues that surrounded it. Good change was made and strides were made for integration. It's not nearly as bad today as you make it sound like. Sure, there are still ignorant folks who simply do not know how to deal with something unfamiliar and then you meet those who simply do not care and only see a human.

Racism happens to be part of the human condition, I think. The whole birds of a feather flock together argument. We are naturally curious and cautious of that which is different. But that is neither here nor there for this argument.

Obama's inexperience troubles me but at least he did not pick Hilary as his VP. I would eat my hat if she did not have him assassinated at first chance and I think that he knows that too.

Spartan27

08-26-2008, 05:15 AM

I'm a Obama supporter but to say that Obama should win because he has experienced what it is to be a black man in America, and that he overcame the difficulties that that presented is in no way legitimate. Now you could say that his life story does provide the qualities to be president, that is legitimate since he came from a one parent household that was lower middle class, that he is one of the classic American stories of making something out of nothing, that is legitimate, but his race should not play a factor neither that he should be elected or that he shouldn't.

♠ Saint ♠

08-26-2008, 05:41 AM

Mmm... I wonder if I peddled my personal life story of struggle being a Hispanic woman in America that that'd make me a good candidate for President.

@ cornflakes: I don't think we have that. I'll have to look into it though. If I could start my political career as the mayor of Jacksonville Florida... oh what changes I would make! For one, that bastard First Baptist Church of Jacksonville that owns half of fucking downtown and doesn't pay a dime in taxes. Tough shit, they make over $250,000 in donations each Sunday and the preacher drives an Escalade. Them bitches be gettin' taxed! That being said, I don't think I'll be getting the vote of the religious right.

cornflakes

08-26-2008, 09:32 AM

his race should not play a factor neither that he should be elected or that he shouldn't.
Exactly. Sure, it'd be cool if the US had a black president, just as it'd be cool if it had a lady president or a war vet president. But in the end it's all a bunch of bull of the president can't handle the office. I support Obama because I believe in his message, not 'cos he's black, or because he struggled against adversity. :)

Shdo

08-26-2008, 10:02 AM

does he really have a massage beside promising vague change?

Rain

08-26-2008, 01:01 PM

Obama's inexperience troubles me

that bothers me as well, but I think his lack of "experience" is stressed a bit too much

the current administration has a huge amount of experience, and they still managaed to f everything up (for the lack of a better expression)

experience is important, but what kind of experience do we really want

McCain may have experience, he might have more experince than Obama would ever have, but its the wrong kind of experience

I see McCain as, in a sense, jaded to the "old" way of thinking, the thinking that got us into Iraq

Obama may not have experience, but no experience is better than bad experience

*wonders if I expressed this well enough*

Shdo

08-26-2008, 01:06 PM

so if an experienced leadership fuck up you think that inexperienced leadership will do any better? its like taking someone who is half way through his medical studies and tell him to do a surgery.

i dont know what bother me more about obama, his lack of experience or shifting stands.
sounds like a gimmick to me more than a presidant.

Rain

08-26-2008, 01:11 PM

so if an experienced leadership fuck up you think that inexperienced leadership will do any better? its like taking someone who is half way through his medical studies and tell him to do a surgery

not really, thats why i made sure to state the second part of my last post

all things being equal I'd rather have a president who is very experienced, and uses that experience well

McCain has experience, but i don't think he will necesarily do anything "good" with it, he will probably do the same stuff Bush and Cheney did

Im not directly pro Obama, but im anti-McCain

Shdo

08-26-2008, 01:25 PM

but as you say, you dont THINK he will use that experience well but also that Obama don't experience. so what makes you think that Obama will use his small expirience well? because he said "change!"?

Rain

08-26-2008, 01:30 PM

no, Obama may mess up just as badly, but I think hes less likely too

Ill put it into numbers

heres my confident % that i think each candidate would use their experience and it would really help the country

Obama- 5-10%
McCain- 0-1%

overall i guess what im saying is that experience is important, but neither candidate has the experience I would want them to have to feel good about them as a president

earthforge

08-26-2008, 03:34 PM

Ookami and Spartan:
Give me a fricken break here. Do we have studies proving that black men endure more than white men? Your conclusion is based of of that false premise. I claim it is false because I have concluded that racism has mostly faded out. Yes, there are still some concentrated spots in the US, but it has been frowned upon in the US and anybody who makes a comment that is racist rapidly falls out of favor with everybody else. That is deadly in today's somewhat deconstructed country.

Inevitable:
Meh. Neither candidate is strong once again as I've said before. With 'Rambo' McCain you get a brash individual who has 0 connection with the middle class ("If you make under 5 million you are middle class" lolwut?) and a militarist individual. To his credit however, he has Washington experience and good foreign policy experience (bad policies however). But he knows zip about the economy...like seriously I think I know more about economics than Rambo. I still remember when he was campaigning early on and someone asked him a question about the economy and he said he would "have to read up on that"...Wow. Sadly, if McCain picks a strong VP who knows the economy, and doesn't piss off the conservatives more than McCain already has, he will win this election :\.

Rather agreed. Frankly, I hate both the candidates, but Obama more so. You bring up correct points.

With Obama you get someone who can rightfully rep the middle class. He is willing to try diplomacy (not appeasement) as a first step. However, he has a lack of Washington experience, is fairly young. I believe his recent flip-flops are not due to some lack of morality or belief, but rather because he is a young politician and still has some to learn. His ideas are new. New doesn't always mean just created. "I got this new shirt from the goodwill". A new-old shirt. His ideas are something that many haven't seen since they've been alive. Thats why his ideas are new and 'creative'. With Biden as his VP he gets instant foreign policy cred so I think he should shoot up in points a bit.

A Maoist, you neglect to mention as well. And may I mention that the perfect mirror for this is in the Nepal conflict at the moment. The militarists are fighting the Maoists for power. Although the militarists are indeed bad, the Maoists did far greater damage to the country and it's people.

Diplomacy isn't the win-all-save-all either. With the two ton Russian bear that's actively moving to possible expansion (Georgian conflict as a beginning), we might need more then diplomacy. Do you think the bear will start crying when Obama makes a speech and claim he will change his ways? Only an idiot would do that, and Putan is not an idiot.

No, I disagree with that. You can correlate all of his flip-flops as movements to concentrations of voters who believe differently. For example, on abortion rights he went left, right, and then far left. You see how many different spectrums that attracts? Which thing does he really stand for as well? If he changes his policy all of the time and is learning, why doesn't he update his website? It seems like a large fallout of logic unless he had a motive that would making flip-flopping beneficial to him.

That's the thing. What truly are his ideas if he's been bouncing about the political spectrum?

Biden as VP and you want him to do foreign policy? A VP can't easily just go in and do all of the foreign policy. He makes many severe gaffes as well. Many of Biden's mistakes in speech turn out as racial slirs, which makes it very humorous that he's the VP of a black possible president.

In my case, I find neither candidate overly strong. They both have equal bad and good points. I support Obama because I don't believe a militarist is good for America right now. We need to work on focusing on our economy and restoring the world's opinion of us. Because it IS important. As much as it hurts me to say it, we need to make-up with the French. We need to increase Israel's strength in their region by supplying them better weapons (Giving them the new JSF earlier than most is a big help). We need to start finding new Allies as well. You look at how Russia seems to be bringing in its own group (Venezuela, Syria, Iran [to an extent], and China). I believe we need to strengthen NATO (will be VITAL when oil starts getting low. Although we will more than likely be dead), and eliminate the free trade agreements we have that are hurting the middle class. We need to strengthen our (southern) borders as well.

Does Obama have any economy credentials? How do you expect him to handle the economy? And is it all about restoring the world's opinion of us? The economy requires to be fixed because it has many holes and is failing to support many families at this time, not because it degrades Europe's opinion. Europe is also our only possible ally if Russia's going into a expansionist phase, and they're not doing too good because Russia's sitting on the oil pipelines. I agree somewhat about free-trade, but again it's an economic issue and does Obama have that credential? In regards to our southern borders, we have strengthened them. That's not the problem. The problem is that the immigrants are not citizens when they come in. This makes it so they can not only not pay taxes, but Americans can hire them as cheap labor workers. Over time, they've become our personal slaves. What must happen is that when an immigrant comes in, they must become a citizen. That removes the lucrative appearence of America to the immigrants. But there must be a universal acceptance of this in all levels of society, and would also mean that companies would have to give up hiring cheap labor. That will not willingly happen.

I'd like to point out that people shouldn't look at poll numbers as concrete evidence of who will win. Remember, the election is based off of the electoral college and NOT popular vote.
Obama in 08' because he isn't a militarist and has shown more knowledge of economic process.

I'd say that at least McCain has seen over the years how the economy has been dealt with. Obama hasn't, and has nothing else to wager in terms of economic credentials. I see that Obama having more credentials in terms of the economy is a false conclusion, drawn of the lack of facts in our discussion.

Rain: This is on the value judgement of how much experience matters. Could you tell me your warrant and backing?

The previous presidency isn't very good backing because (1) that was a different group with different motivations and (2) Bush had no real experience. His campaign was sold on that basis. and that he was a "new" conservative, just as Obama proclaims he is the "new liberal" who will bring "change".

It kinda helps in your numbers if Obama had any experience to work from, so it gets set to 0 along with McCain.

Offtopic: Sigh, I love critical thinking.

ookami

08-26-2008, 06:09 PM

yes we do black men were castrated white men weren't black people wern't aloud in resturants questioned pulled over or beaten if they owned a car , give ud a frekin break we had history classes.

Spartan27

08-26-2008, 06:31 PM

WTH Earthforge, I said that his race DIDN'T have a factor in his suitability to be President, I said that his background of coming from a single parent household which was lower middle class has a factor, not a large factor by still a factor in his suitability. Earthforge I know we don't agree much, but please actually read my post before accusing me of having the wrong view.

Ookami, please, Obama is not old enough to remember or to experience many of the things that you mentioned, it does not give him any more credence to being president just because he is black, if we went by these measures than a white man would never become president.

As for the experience factor, I would like to point out that many Governors do not have much experience in many fields, they most often do not have much if any foreign policy experience, yet many do well in these regards, it's not always about if you have experience but if you surround yourself with the right people. I'm not saying that experience should not be a factor, but it's just something to think about.

As for McCain from what I see he hasn't learned anything from the past 8 years, so I mean how is his experience helping him, if he is proposing the same policies that put us in this mess? Experience doesn't always mean that they know the right solution if they don't learn anything from their experience.

As for Obama apparently he hasn't been living in the past 12 or so years, I mean the statement that he hasn't experience what the economy has been like in the past years is just false, you don't have to be in congress to see how the economy is run.

As for me I know what McCain is going to do about the economy, and I don't think tax cuts are going to do the trick, this is a guy that basically supports the same policies that have put us in this situation, is that the guy that we should trust?

ookami

08-26-2008, 06:54 PM

yeah but people didn't want him to be president because he was black this was early on in the election plus recent news shows there was an assasination plot against obama it was to do with race because the man said he didn't want a black president in office three men where arrested with sniper rifles but luckily he was on web cam.

Shadoblak

08-26-2008, 07:38 PM

Isn't Obama half black half white.....The fact that people only see skin color even over actual family history is part of the problem...isn't it?

ookami

08-26-2008, 08:33 PM

well hes from hawaii and there was somthing said that he was from a big family and they said that was bad for someone whos job is to think about people and make there lives better.

earthforge

08-26-2008, 08:48 PM

Spartan: Sorry. My bad.

I think experience is a factor, and it shouldn't be ignored. This is because a man/woman is governed by their past experiences to define the next conclusion. He may not have enough experiences to draw from in case of an issue like the Russians (we haven't had a problem with Russia till late in Bush's presidency within the last 8 years.) He does have valuable resources around him though, and he could theoretically ask for their guidance. But with all of the corruption of the political system in both parties, I think he wouldn't do it for fear of manipulation. However, this is all theory.

ookami: How many years ago was that? Nearing half a century? I won't deny the issue partially exists still, but I haven't seen gigantic resurgence of African American racism. If it were there, I doubt Obama would have won the primaries.

A bit on family history, here's a nice analysis:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JB26Aa01.html

ookami

08-26-2008, 08:56 PM

sorry earthforge but reasearch the assination attempt.

Shadoblak

08-26-2008, 10:15 PM

Sorry Earth...but unless you're African American, you're not really qualified to make that conclusion....You can't know how much racism there is unless you're the victim of it....

Bah I take that back...even if you are....It's still a problem. period.

Spartan27

08-26-2008, 10:18 PM

Obama is half Black half Caucasian, it's one of his more interesting stories.

Experience is something that I don't think shouldn't be ignored totally, I'm just saying it isn't the be all end all of choosing a President, but it something that should be looked at and compared.

btw, earthforge it's alright, I just definitely do not want to be on that side of that question.

emoloz

08-26-2008, 10:28 PM

I dont think either are good and am not american I think you need a referendum to be honest.

Hilary was a power huger.

Obama thinks hes some god that can save the world peh yeah right he'll mess it up.

Mcain needs to retire hes just in it to win it to be honest.

I hate them all not one stood out for me so glad I aint gotta vote in that lets hope your independant candiates something special.

earthforge

08-27-2008, 07:09 PM

Shadoblak": I'm glad you took that back, because it's like saying I can't understand people who suicide because I haven't.

ookami: I did say racism still exists in small but concentrated quantities. The more isolated and ignored they are, the more extreme they can get.

Spartan: I post early morning or late night most times because of classes. I often don't read posts clearly then, and it's an annoying thing that I do.

Agreed.

emoloz:
I hugely disagree with your view of Clinton. I have no idea why I see so much hate of her around, and I can never see any rationale for her being a monster. McCain is just running in the name of the shattered Republican party, which may explain his lack of motivation. The democratic primaries were, in comparison to the Republican primaries, cut-throat. Obama is a puzzle, but I don't believe a word he says because he flip-flops and has more similarities to Bush than McCain.

The thing with Obama is not the question of what he will do, it's if he'll do it. McCain has been rather obvious as to what will happen when he's president: continue Iraq, not fix the economy, and all in all not change a thing about current America. It'll be just like 4 years of Bush being quiet and not doing anything. However, Obama hasn't been clear as to what he'll do. He might be indeed good in his presidency, or he could be a Bush on the left. So since I can't measure his policy, I'm measuring his chances of being honest and where he will go. He has strong ties to the extreme left, much like Bush had with the right. They have been his patrons since the beginning. Some of his supporter's ecstatic and sometimes vicious actions, particularly towards to Clinton, indicate a almost seperate cult mentality about the man. There are many bits of information. I think that he is the product of the extreme left who can effect an almost celebrity-like presence in the elections (evident by him trying to flip flop so as to obtain more votes) and so they can use him. Also, the extreme-left has had a history of hating the Clinton's mainly because of their centrist values (borrowing from the left and right.)

The largest problem is that in this election you can't get abstracted by the issues because us voters don't even know what one of the candidates will do. Determining what are their motivations may be the key.

This latest Doonesbury cartoon was great. There was also another one in the Cartoonist's view in the Mercury News, but I can't find it. Rude, but so true.
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2008/db080826.gif

ookami

08-27-2008, 09:04 PM

[QUOTE]I did say racism still exists in small but concentrated quantities. The more isolated and ignored they are, the more extreme they can get[QUOTE] right so you can see and read this earthforge and that you willtake notice this time ASSASINATION ATTEMPT RACIALLY FUEL!!!!!

bradc

08-27-2008, 10:11 PM

Whatever happens across the border of US, is going to affect Canada being the neighboruing country and what have you, due its economical and trade partner ties. I hope is actually change for the better and not for the worst...

ookami

08-27-2008, 10:17 PM

I think this vote is so crucial because it effects the allies of america due to Obamas policies to pull soldiers out of Iraq and John Macains to send in more troops.

bradc

08-27-2008, 10:20 PM

America is $482 Billion in deficit in debt... If they don't pull out of Iraq they will lose more money from a pointless war that can't be won. America doesn't have a lot of money and its still owing China tons of it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/28/AR2008072800953.html

ookami

08-27-2008, 10:31 PM

yeah so Obama is the best bet really. If he doesn't get troops out of Iraq he will get Impeached.

♠ Saint ♠

08-27-2008, 11:18 PM

yeah so Obama is the best bet really. If he doesn't get troops out of Iraq he will get Impeached.

Impeachment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment)

Obama would not fit the requirements for impeachment if he did not take us out of Iraq.

And who gives a damn if the assassination attempt was racially motivated? So one guy was mad about the potential to have a half-black President. People try to assassinate important people for a variety of reasons (a good portion of them stemming from mental illness or someone in the assassin or stalker mode). Reagan nearly bought it because some low-life wanted to prove his love to actress Jodie Foster. Some dude in the 90's opened fire on the White House with a rifle while Clinton was in office.

And a note to some of you still harping about racism, you're only a victim if you want to be. Even as a Hispanic, I've felt the stab of some ignorant bigot who thought I was a "border-hopping wetback" or a "trash raft refugee". Some chick even asked me if I spoke Mexican. My personal fave is when I attended an anti-Klan rally at a Klan rally and was called a "filthy spic with a bad taco", something I found amusing for some reason (probably because I'm not Mexican). Moreso in the deep south, there are still racist bigots who want to be a thorn in everyone's sides but that isn't your cueto lay down and play victim either. Hell, I even worked with an older lady who told me a "joke" that was so racist, I actually thought I was going to take her out with the metal detector wand I was using. I didn't but still. She said that she didn't mind me because "Puerto Rico is at LEAST a commonwealth". Mer.:notrust

bradc

08-27-2008, 11:22 PM

I wary... 8(

I don't know... But whoever winds up being president would still have to clean up the mess the previous president has made and screwed up the economy. It wouldn't matter what party they are from and represent; it would just be any other person no matter what racial background would be governing and leading its people... Either to succeed or to failure...

gigantor21

08-27-2008, 11:33 PM

I feel like Obama is being hyped up WAY more than he actually deserves TBH.

He's a much "sexier" candidate than McCain, yes, but I look at his policies and don't see anything better than what other congressmen/officials are offering. The fact that his messages are so vauge and wishy-washy (or what supporters call "centrist" and "nuanced) doesn't help. I can't trust nebulous promises of change or hope; I need convincing, solid policies behind the message, and Obama hasn't offered many so far.

I don't know. He seems more interested in winning now than galvanizing the country or fixing things. It's hard to be excited about him.

He's still way better than McCain though. Don't get me wrong. :p

Rain

08-27-2008, 11:48 PM

gigantor- I totally agree, he is being hyped up so much more than he should be

and yeah, it does seem as if he cares more about winning now than his actual "policies"

(like how he flip-flopped (alittle) on offshore drilling....maybe he really thinks its a good idea, but still, he almost belittled the idea before)

but maybe if we look at those changes as being able to keep an open mind and adaptability as opposed to "stubborness" if you don't change your ideas then it does seem better

in short, no matter what you do, it can either be seen as a strength or weakness.....yay for politics

ookami

08-27-2008, 11:53 PM

I find it funny that countrys could invest in energy thats more sustainable and they say no lets get more of that stuff thats killing us as if texas is chain smoker lol.

gigantor21

08-28-2008, 12:21 AM

The offshore drilling thing REALLY pissed me off. Good God.

The Bush administration's data says it'll have little effect on prices, and will take 10 years to affect prices at all. That's why I was glad Obama stood against it; it's the golden calf of the energy crisis. Even if it could cut prices in half tommorow, the REAL problem is being dependent on oil, not just how it's priced. The only real solution is moving away from oil altogether.

Thomas Friedman put it best:
"When a person is addicted to crack cocaine, his problem is not that the price of crack is going up. His problem is what that crack addiction is doing to his whole body. The cure is not cheaper crack, which would only perpetuate the addiction and all the problems it is creating. The cure is to break the addiction."

I was hoping Obama would hold the line once McCain started chanting "drill here, drill now". Alas, he and his staff caved once they saw the poll numbers, saying 3/4ths of Americans want drilling ASAP and many believe it can affect gas prices in one year. Once he decided to "compromise", I started to smell the bullshit.

Other things about Obama have bothered me, like his decision to give telecoms immunity for the whole wiretapping thing and his slow, subtle retreat from his original Iraq withdrawal timetable. A lot of columnists (particularly in the Times) are writing like he still has the old fire, but all I see nowadays is another politician.

I'm glad that he's getting more people into politics. But I'm worried that his supporters are putting a bit TOO much faith in him--like he's going to be able to solve all of our problems in 4 years if elected. He isn't really convincing me though. :/

earthforge

08-28-2008, 12:58 AM

...sometimes I even wonder why I post long things because they are never answered. :/

Gigantor, agreed. Completely.

Ookami: I couldn't have said it better than Saint.

bradc: Problem is, Obama isn't about the economy. Clinton was, and she got punched in the face for it.

bradc

08-28-2008, 01:26 AM

It wouldn't matter who gets elected for president, the people would still bitch and moan about the same thing not being done about the economy and healthcare... etc; they still have a pile of unsolved problems to clean up. More like they all need to get their act together and deal with the problem either way. Cause it's not going to clean itself up... Probably need a much bigger vacuum...

I wish I could vote but I am located on the otherside of the border...

♠ Saint ♠

08-28-2008, 01:41 AM

I find it funny that countrys could invest in energy thats more sustainable and they say no lets get more of that stuff thats killing us as if texas is chain smoker lol.

Do us a favor and use a tad bit of grammar and maybe a comma or two. We can barely understand what you are saying.

Ask any billionaire if losing a few billion dollars in profits because of an alternative fuel source is even remotely funny.

...sometimes I even wonder why I post long things because they are never answered. :/

Gigantor, agreed. Completely.

Ookami: I couldn't have said it better than Saint.

bradc: Problem is, Obama isn't about the economy. Clinton was, and she got punched in the face for it.

earthforge, I actually learned a lot from reading your posts. Your thoughts are interesting and provacative but some days (like tonight), my brain is just BLEH and it's hard to do critical thinking (you try doing the New York Times Sunday Crossword after working 9 hours in a 98 degree warehouse with 60% humidity). Heheh, I do appreciate your posting as it is good in these types of debates to have someone here posting facts and not just opinion.

bradc

08-28-2008, 02:04 AM

Is it just me, what was the point of the debate...

History made as Obama officially nominated for president (http://www.cbc.ca/world/usvotes/story/2008/08/27/obama-nod.html) ._.;;;

ookami

08-28-2008, 02:26 AM

I'm sorry but this election to me looks like a less serious Xfactor or Pop Idol now. hillary clinton as Sharon Osborne and Joe biden as Simon Cowell. No offence to anysirious diplomat

♠ Saint ♠

08-28-2008, 03:09 AM

Do us a favour and stop bitching because you can't catch your breath.

Weak come back. But it's refreshing to be able to actually read your contributions to the discussion. Par excellence. Thank you for responding in such a way that is legible, at least a bit more than you previously were.

Anyhow, in response to bradc, I don't see a problem with bitching about the economy or whatnot as long as you do your citizen's duty and vote. It boggles me how people say that they aren't going to vote out of protest, or that they don't like either candidate, or whatever reason they conjure up. How can you say that and then complain about the outcome? It's like watching someone pull out in front of you and not hitting the brakes.

In the same vein, voting for the "lesser of two evils" disturbs me. I mean, you are voting but at the same time, for who you feel will screw up less or who is a better bet. Shouldn't a vote be cast for a candidate you have faith in? :huhuh

bradc

08-28-2008, 03:17 AM

Actually I have been living in Canada for nearly 18-20 years and I never voted; nor bother keep up with the PM election because doesn't matter who you vote for, still be the same idiots running the Parliament. There another fall election coming up on this end and I will be across the globe anyway. There's no room to vote when you're travelling back to another country.

The ballot box is too far out of reach!

♠ Saint ♠

08-28-2008, 03:26 AM

I thought that if you are overseas, you can still cast a vote at your nation's embassy? I know that for the US Armed forces, they have a ballot system so that you can vote even if deployed overseas.

Mmm, I am so glad we got rid of the punch-type ballots. That whole hanging chad thing and the fact that the state of Florida seems unable to count was a little embarassing.

bradc

08-28-2008, 03:32 AM

I will be Asia, Hong Kong to be exact... A different type of government system, a two tier government system to be exact. By the time the election starts up in Canada I will be gone by then. We still use ballot boxes for election here... Computer may not always be accurate when counting, especially when the computer get a glitch problem, then you have to start all over again...

Like I said, the same idiots running the house: Bill Clinton gets wild welcome from Democratic delegates (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/08/27/bill-clinton-speech.html)

princessjeza07

08-28-2008, 03:42 AM

♠ Saint ♠

08-28-2008, 03:57 AM

I am of age to vote and this is the first Presidential Election i am voting in. I'm not 100% sure who yet, all I can say is this country is heading down the tubes and at an alarming rate. unemployment and gas is up, healthcare and education is down and all people seem to care about in the white house is the damn oil! They SAY they are "helping" the people in the middle east, but even my 6 year old brother knows that's a load of BS. If we are all about helping people, what about the people in Africa and China and even here in the good old USA who are starving! I am sick of all these liars!! I watch them on the tv and I get sick to my stomach, because it seems like this is just a game to them and you can put any faith in our govenment sometimes. I just want a President who will just.. want to make this country better. I don't give a care about the color of the skin, (like some) just someone who will for once put the country and the people's best intrest at heart.

*toasts you*

One of my personal issues is vets at VA hospitals. The government isn't taking care of them like they should. Despite the things wrong with the US, I don't think I'd want to live anywhere else. Being able to walk into my local IHOP at 3 AM in my pajamas and still get damn good service rocks socks.

lilsakura

08-28-2008, 04:08 AM

I am of age to vote and this is the first Presidential Election i am voting in. I'm not 100% sure who yet, all I can say is this country is heading down the tubes and at an alarming rate. unemployment and gas is up, healthcare and education is down and all people seem to care about in the white house is the damn oil! They SAY they are "helping" the people in the middle east, but even my 6 year old brother knows that's a load of BS. If we are all about helping people, what about the people in Africa and China and even here in the good old USA who are starving! I am sick of all these liars!! I watch them on the tv and I get sick to my stomach, because it seems like this is just a game to them and you can put any faith in our govenment sometimes. I just want a President who will just.. want to make this country better. I don't give a care about the color of the skin, (like some) just someone who will for once put the country and the people's best intrest at heart.

Woot! :yay You go sista!! I don't support this war because the only driving force behind it is exploiting it's people for oil and avoiding the inevitable alternative fuel sources meanwhile killing a bunch of Americans and Iraqi people as well. I don't understand why skin color is even a factor. What does that matter? What was America built upon? The chance to let diversity run freely. Also, healthcare is another big issue that we need to adress alongside this war that we need to come out of. We need a more thriving economy at this point and Obama's the one to do it.

bradc

08-28-2008, 04:22 AM

princessjeza07

08-28-2008, 04:42 AM

Incoming the younger generation and out with the old...

Change can be done to improve the society needs when more younger generation get involved, and understand how the government system works. Most people don't bother with it to understand it and they are getting educated about it too.

Only CNN covering the Presidental Speech, which they backed McCain. Bill Clinton ripped apart the Republicans and backed Obama from the glimpsed of the speech I watched. I guess the Presidency has a new face-lift and hope for the better???

I am a adult now and I am trying to take even more intrest in college and the world events and .. but can you blame me if I would rather to curl up in my bed with the newest Bleach manga or debate who will win? Ichiruki? or Ichihime? than to turn on the tv and hear about some pre-school that was just blown up in Baghdad and killed a bunch of 5year olds? it sucks! But the younger generation is getting into it. I just got a email about some kind of pro-Obama thing going on at the start of the new semester at my school.

Shadoblak

08-28-2008, 05:34 AM

Shadoblak": I'm glad you took that back, because it's like saying I can't understand people who suicide because I haven't.

No.
Actually, it's saying that no matter who you are you can't say it. Because what you "think" is going on and what's actually happening are two different things. And I had to take it back because I had to realize that no matter who you are you can clearly still be ignorant to what goes on around you.

♠ Saint ♠

08-28-2008, 05:35 AM

@ jeza

You're quite right. As much as we want to bury our heads in the sand, we as the future generation cannot afford to look away and be unconcerned because then we would be consigning ourselves to disaster.

bradc

08-28-2008, 06:43 AM

I am a adult now and I am trying to take even more intrest in college and the world events and .. but can you blame me if I would rather to curl up in my bed with the newest Bleach manga or debate who will win? Ichiruki? or Ichihime? than to turn on the tv and hear about some pre-school that was just blown up in Baghdad and killed a bunch of 5year olds? it sucks! But the younger generation is getting into it. I just got a email about some kind of pro-Obama thing going on at the start of the new semester at my school.

I don't blame you. Most people like us, our future, would bury their head into a fantasy land and disregard what's truly happening to the world around us. In sense is like running away from the problem than actually facing them... I agree it does suck, and the younger generation like ourselves are sick and tired of war because it accomplishes nothing. The younger generation can make a difference, it won't be perfect but a good change is what the future needs towards peace. :hug

lilsakura

08-28-2008, 01:57 PM

I don't blame you. Most people like us, our future, would bury their head into a fantasy land and disregard what's truly happening to the world around us. In sense is like running away from the problem than actually facing them... I agree it does suck, and the younger generation like ourselves are sick and tired of war because it accomplishes nothing. The younger generation can make a difference, it won't be perfect but a good change is what the future needs towards peace. :hug

Yeah, I agree. It's my generation that will have to face the consequences of our country's actions these past 8 years and will somehow have to try and pave a path that will work for us and for others. People need to be more active with what is happening around them and need to be more knowledgeable about world affairs that affect them directly. There are so many people who just wish to live ignorantly or keep a close-mind and think irrationally. America was built on such great ideals and progressed slowly but surely into a great country. We can't let everything that this country has become burst into flames. There is still room for progress. A lot of room and hopefully we'll be able to make that transition. Unluckily, I'm only turning 17 as of oct. so I can't vote :( but my family sure will.

CeriaHalcyon

08-28-2008, 03:06 PM

What's ironic about america is the fact that we're one of the youngest countries, and yet we've had the most power, prosperity and opportunity.

like it or not, this country was founded on christian values, and i think escaping from that reality is what's led to our decline.

*i'm not a relgious person by any means, but i understand and accept that my country was founded on religious values. I think that just because our country has a certain religion as it's foundation, our citizens don't have to believe it or anything for that matter, but our laws are based on religious tenets.

I guess where im going with this is that Bush is a believer in christ, and i don't like that none of the current candidates seem to have any strong moral convictions.

Obama left his minister at the one sign of trouble, which i think could've been better explained that "yeah he's a bit out there, but he's helped my family through tough times or something like that," instead of fleeing away.

McCain is hard to read cause he's middle ground, not a regular republican, but i don't know enough about his religious practices to really say at this point though.

I really wonder these days what the founding presidents would think if they saw the political climate of 2008?

lilsakura

08-28-2008, 03:41 PM

The US has made many transitions from where it once came. We are far more tolerant now than we were back then and religious values don't entirely encompass how the candidate will run the country. It's the candidates ideals and prospects and dreams and plans on how he/she will follow through that shows the people the candidate's worth. Also, there are many religion that people in America practice. I will say it again that religion can give you certain morals but it still is not a driving factor for what the next president will do. We need a better economy, health care, deal with this petty war in a better way. All of which is done solely on the candidates ideals or dreams for the future. Also, by halting diversity, it would only halt progression and wouldn't help it in any way.

Rain

08-28-2008, 04:31 PM

like it or not, this country was founded on christian values, and i think escaping from that reality is what's led to our decline.

Obama left his minister at the one sign of trouble, which i think could've been better explained that "yeah he's a bit out there, but he's helped my family through tough times or something like that," instead of fleeing away.

McCain is hard to read cause he's middle ground, not a regular republican, but i don't know enough about his religious practices to really say at this point though.

I really wonder these days what the founding presidents would think if they saw the political climate of 2008?

the country may have been founded on religious values, and thats fine, as long as their reasoning for the laws and such aren't "because god says so"

that would be an epic mistake

the government/our policies should be agnostic in every possible way

I'd say, if anything, there is too mcuh emphasis on religion with our current president

and Obama didn't leave pastor wright at the first sign at all. He stuck by him for some time, then wright just kept on going, and all the negative soundbytes really could have been quite damagaing to obama

Shdo

08-28-2008, 04:37 PM

that is another problem, he simply try to please the voters, his stands and support change according to the public view.

bradc

08-28-2008, 05:00 PM

America is still a 200 year old empire; unlike China which has been around for 5000 years with its politics and history. One thing that America can't wage another war, which most of its companies and corporation relies on China to business with them. I think most the US citizens are are willing to risk 50/50 of chance with Obama. Is a wait and see what Obama will do, if he gets elected as President and keep his words. McCain has experience, but do we need another old guy to run the office? Possible chance of waging another war, which America is stalemated from where its at with Georgia-Russia, then there is Iran-Iraq, and Afghanistan.

earthforge

08-28-2008, 06:15 PM

Shado: You're wrong. The correct course of action would to be present evidence to prove me wrong. Without that evidence, your personal attack is unwarranted. Saying I just can't understand what's happening merely is a meaningless statement. Give me evidence.

bradc: (In reference to your post last page) First, I disagree with your first statements because it is a huge generalization. The old generation needs to be kicked out because they are represented by Bush? Bush was a seperate failure, and itn was the failure of the country not the elderly that caused his election. It is this notion that limits my parents ability to get a job even though they created the foundation for the computer system that you are using right now. That notion, which causes a pervasive form of agism.

The older generation should not be forced out. We shouldn't blame them, because us as the younger generation also failed.

Change is an ambiguous term. Change for the better or the worse? It isn't the younger generation that causes change for the better. It is the older and younger generation working together, with both the value of new ideas from the younger and the experience that is used to advise from the older. Those came together in Hillary's campaign. Obama only represents one part (having the younger generation only in) as does McCain (only the older generation). Those are both recipes for disaster.

The youngercan suffer a much more lasting blow if they have a crappy choice of president. They can be rash, ignorant, and stupid. That can lead to a failing presidency.

princess: Yes, reality sucks. Which is partially why so many of the younger generation and the older make their escapes in obsessions. It is both.

Let me remind you all that it is the few of the older generation which are at the heads of the Bush campaign. The FEW. There are other elders who actually believe it was a mistake. We have too many unnessecary generalizations in this discussion of the old. It is the entire country that will decide on who to vote. And I guess that's the split between Hillary, Obama, and McCain. Representing both, the young, and the old.

Ceria: No, it was based on more puritan values. Christianity isn't the country's religion; rather its religion is capatalism. To much extreme capatalism can be very downgrading, as we have seen in America. I'm not saying capatalism is bad, just right now it's at an extreme.

The reason why christianity doesn't matter is because America houses many religions. We are the land of the free, where pilgrims came to to avoid religious persecution. If we became set in christianity, wouldn't we betray one of the founding principles of America?

bradc

08-28-2008, 07:53 PM

A computer can only do so much; it still require a human brain for input and data, where you control the program what to do. The human is the computer itself... Humans makes computer and technology, computers don't make humans. Because when a computer has an error it must be corrected and fixed, and a create a software program can allow someone such as Bush to cheat an election. That's why ballot boxes done in old fashion are there in the first place, where most elections has always been done that way.

The older generation thinks things in more a rigid manner, much like your Grandmother and Grandfather who refuses to change what they think its right; they are stuck in their own time and ideology from when they were born; in which war has only brought downfall of the empire and so-call democracy. So if someone much younger, civilize and diplomat presidency takes place, change will sure to follow, but these things of course take time. It can't be done overnight.

ookami

08-28-2008, 09:54 PM

Well who ever is elected is going to have a huge problem to solve, The Idea of another cold war is like the old movies the don't make any more, you just .....miss them. Joe Bidens speech hit nail on the head, barely anyone relys on america anymore an extra big thank you to George.W.Bush for that. I also loved the fact that Joe Biden highlited that the america todday is all of GWBs fault.

Rain

08-28-2008, 10:02 PM

earthforge- yeah, change is too ambiguous

it sounds well and good, makes for good sound bites, but it doesn't mean much

but then again, even if its change for the worse, I think most really do just want change right now, be it better or worse, just something different

ookami- well to be honest, we can't blame everythign on Bush, and its a mistake

the country kind of elected him (not in the popular vote as much:sweat) his proposals were passed, like the patriot act, the war (the one in afgantistan at least) was supported by the majority of the people

Bush was not a good president, but the US wasn't some country where the leader could do everything without consequence, the people are at fault as well

bradc

08-28-2008, 10:07 PM

McCain hasn't choosen a VP yet: McCain still undecided on vice-presidential pick (http://www.cbc.ca/world/usvotes/story/2008/08/28/mccain-veep.html#socialcomments)

Obama seems a million miles ahead, but whether he wins or lose during the Democratic Elections. Someone still got to clean up the economy: education, healthcare, foreign affairs... etc, and get the country back onto its feet. Canada being a neighbouring country, it affects us too...

ookami

08-28-2008, 10:11 PM

True we can't blame everything on bush but it is fun to. My grandad died DAMN YOU BUSHHHHH!!!!!. like that but when Macain or Obama gets elected it'll
be like "think fast!".

earthforge

08-29-2008, 12:32 AM

bradc: No, you're generalizing again. Maybe that's true of my grandparents, but of course they're in their 80's. Not my parents, who are over 50 though. They have thought through their decisions thoroughly and are not set in their time. Technically, they are also of the older generation. So, it really doesn't matter. Young or old, black or white, man or woman, every different group both can come up with invaluable information and analysis as well as worthless dribble. It is not the group that defines the person, it is the number of experiences. In this, you cannot use categorical premises. And that is merely because we are all human.

No one, not even the oldest or the youngest, can be truly classified as a computer. Because we as human beings have free will to make our choices.

Both can get set in an ideology or refuse to. Exemplified by a Vietnam nut set in his own time, and my friend getting caught in an ideology that Obama will change everything to roses. Both are ideologies.

Rain: And that may be what I hate the most. The willingness to do anything, even if it's for a turn for the worse, just for the sensation and the feeling. I classify it as part of the Dorian Gray syndrome. I hated that book, but it represents decadence so well, and we are in a decadent age. It's reflected in our newspapers, our celebritys, and now our presidents. And even though I discourage it as my personal choice, almost all of the people that surround me don't care. It's frustrating, especially because I can't even vote yet and my fate is decided by those people. Most I can do is hope they'll listen to my arguments. It would be easier if America hadn't gotten so decadent.

The Killing Fields of Cambodia is an example of an effect caused by a willingness to make the bad choice. So is the situation in Nepal. The US succumbing to it is much like England before the turn of the century. I wonder, how much will we sacrifice?

bradc

08-29-2008, 02:37 AM

Tell me what isn't general? It can't measure the entire foothole population of America on the internet, and what others are thinking without talking to others and how they feel about uncertain changes whether it be environmental issues and stockmarket investment. There are many groups of people who believes in the same ideology and beliefs that's why are merge together to make a difference, or for the worse (a person alone can't do it), and some choose to remain ignorant individuals and not understand the world around them. Some people choose not to change, you can't change others unless they change themselves.

My grandmother can't operate a computer at her age being 70 and over; let alone using the DVD player and owning a cellphone; she's pretty much stuck in her own era, there's no point to change her because she can't think and keep up with the rest of the younger generation in the family. The much younger and middle-age generation relies on computer and technology, as does majority of the business being done. Yes, people are computer because we them just like us in terms of communication and connecting with people across the globe. But each one are unique in their own way.

Inevitable.Exit

08-29-2008, 02:54 PM

Wow Obama's speech was amazing last night.

And McCain just lost himself the election with his VP pick IMO.

It totally takes the experience argument off the table. Oh man.

ookami

08-29-2008, 06:47 PM

lol John McCain may as well get up to the podium and say "well we all know I'm not going to win, I confess to being GWBs twin and errr thats it really, ohhhh look at vice president Jackass".

earthforge

08-29-2008, 06:48 PM

Excuse me Inevitable, while I hand you an article that crushes that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/opinion/29brooks.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

I found it quite humorous, didn't you?

Hey, what the hell's wrong with his VP pick? It was damned good. Her decisions and reasons were all very good. Funny thing is, she has even more experience than Obama, and Obama's a presidential pick. The dem's are seriously screwing up. So, now the experience debate maybe unconsidered, but the McCain-Palin ticket has more applicable experience credentials than the Obama-Biden ticket.

It looks like you and ookami are getting misogynistic, just like in the last thread. Can you come up with a good sound argument to justify your position?

I found it entertaining that while the cult of Obama was drooling in awe of the one, the republicans were actually on the move. McCain made a very good pick while Obama was too busy maintaining his cult. Don't agree with my characterization of cult? Read the comments on David Brook's column I added the link too. They sound just like people from a cult, don't they now?

bradc: Then you agree with me now, cause that's basically what I said. But earlier you had split the general population into two groups: the old and the young. Now you include middle-age as a category. Earlier, you had that category as part of the "older generation" category, and then insulted them. I resent that, because it goes against the principles of a complex society and can be deadly to those in the middle-age group. Even if they have experience, they are excluded from work and their job-oppurtunities destroyed. All because of that simple mistake of yours, that mistake which attempts to simplify a complex problem by generalizing it (a fallacy, by the way). Don't make it again,.

ookami

08-29-2008, 07:39 PM

If you want to vote for McCain why don't you just cancel the election because all your getting is another George Bush.

bradc

08-29-2008, 07:44 PM

Ah but here is the thing, McCain got himself an inexperience much younger female crazy hockey mom on his end; trying to take Hilary's vote but I can't see where this is going anywhere at all. And then there is the Clinton/Bush/Clinton/Bush... We don't need another Bush Lite with McCain. He's rather old for his age to use a computer anyway, he would need his inexperience VP has backing and help him out.

McCain's VP is also against abortion and same-sex...

McCain names female Alaska governor as VP pick (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/08/29/mccain-vp.html#socialcomments)

Shdo

08-29-2008, 07:50 PM

i dont understand this, i watch the american media right now and they are talking about her expirience as lacking while she have more than obama in running of a country.

btw, awsome article.

ookami

08-29-2008, 07:52 PM

Joe Biden is experianced and has a big family there is relevence to that also, where as McCain's VP I don't know her name but she looks like a "sex in the city" background character lol. They say don't judge a book by the cover but the cover can always have relevence for story, she basically doesn't look like she has the balls to say anything or stand up for anyone lol.

Shdo

08-29-2008, 07:53 PM

and she still have more experience than obama! argument fails.

this is obama problem right now, he cant use the experience card against palin.

if she is a noob than what obama is?

ookami

08-29-2008, 07:58 PM

The thing about Obama is hes calm where as when McCain is old hes going to panic, Russia is using the elections as an oppertunity window because at the moment America is very powerless with most of its troops in Afganistan, they have to have some very seirous talks with Russia and America has the POWER of George Bush ¬¬.

bradc

08-29-2008, 07:59 PM

Is more like Obama surrounding himself with intellectual people on his end of the Democratic Spectrum; he's got himself Bill Clinton who used get America Surpluses back int the good old days when the America dollar was strong. And that's what we need to keep the business going for the economic, a strong American dollar to do business with, since it also affects the international market.

earthforge

08-29-2008, 08:02 PM

ookami: I'd rather let a weak president have the presidency than a second McCarthy, which is what you are voting for.

bradc: The governor of Alaska who is fighting for her states oil/gas pipelines is a crazy hockery mom? I see you're getting misogynistic as well. It is rude and nasty, how you are taking her down just like Clinton.

It doesn't matter if he's old or young, I don't give a shit and neither should this country. It is the man that comes through, not the generalization for which category people think he is in. Your arguments are invalid, because you aren't even using sound logic anymore. Nothing more than insulting him.

As I said, she has more experience than Obama, so if she's inexperienced, what does that make Obama?

She has her reasons for being against abortion. But does it really matter? Abortion is still banned in the states except in places such as NY and California. Doctors still can lie to a patient about them being pregnant. How will being anti-abortion affect that? I'm pretty certain it will just remain the same.

As for Obama, he says he'll do something, but he's a hard-core liar. In the UK news, they recently talked about his trip to Africa two years ago. He looked a headmaster of a school named after him in the eye and said he would fund the school. And has he? He hasn't sent even $50 to that school in two years, even though they supported him. All this goes to prove is he is a liar.

So, now what guarantee do you have that Obama will change the country for the better? The odds aren't quite 50/50 with that information. He has also dealt with slumlords, as has Biden after one of the bills he passed. So who's got the worse choice here?

It looks like now you have no more guarantee than that "Cicero can do no wrong". *indicates at signature*

On Russia: And Putan's now saying McCain is a horrible choice. Funny that the Obamamites agree with Russia on this one. Oh, wait, isn't that considered unpatriotic?

Shdo

08-29-2008, 08:02 PM

he will be panic because he is old? that is really not convincing. so the young candidate is calm and the old one isnt?

since when old age and wisdom is a downside? in my country some of the best politicians are older than mccain so i really dont understand how old age is a weakness (when his physical check was very good if i am not mistaken)

ookami

08-29-2008, 08:04 PM

Lol Bill Clinton was great he made America the america what is needed to day really.

earthforge

08-29-2008, 08:06 PM

ookami: You and the dem's missed that chance with Clinton. Live with it.

ookami

08-29-2008, 08:09 PM

nah I've done my research, Clinton was good. But also in my experiance when old people panic they have a heart attack and die McCain will be in and out of that office so fast he will leave his skin behind.

Shdo

08-29-2008, 08:11 PM

but bill isnt obama VP. does bill have a role in obama campgain beside sitting there and clapping to his wife? does he have a role in the future cabinet of obama? if not than i dont see why people even mention him as a pro for obama.

instead of looking on who is black and who is old, shouldnt this be about stands? policies?

examples from my country:

golda meir, she was 75 when the yum kippur war happend and she didnt got a heart attack, she won.

begin was 69 when he got into office and managed to sign peace and go to two wars without dying.

and the list goes on.
old age is not a weakness for a leader and if they dont die when there is a war in their backyard than why would mccain die?

bradc

08-29-2008, 08:11 PM

If being a female and having no rights to abortions? So much for human nature of females breeding with their male counter-parts on this planet, when both mother and child can die, or both. :devestated

McCain's VP is a female and she's against herself??? :confused:

earthforge

08-29-2008, 08:17 PM

bradc: It doesn't matter your opinion, she has come to that conclusion after having a child with a disability that most people would abort. That is just her viewpoint. But thinking realistically and reading my arguments again, does it matter?

Shdo: I have agreed with what you have said. But with Obama, you can't be sure what his stance is, and he has a history of being dishonest.

ookami

08-29-2008, 08:19 PM

Scenario: girls 15 year old says "I'm pregnant" her life is ruined because she won't be able to get higher education and acheieve more in life . The father same age Maybe his life has come to a stop. Abortion, its not really killing a person either.

Shdo:What does being black and being old have in common I can't even Vote for any of them and I won't be able to because I'm not American, and I wouldn't vote for someone because the skin is a different colour to the opposition, thats just racist.

Shdo

08-29-2008, 08:21 PM

i know, i only hear about change but its seems pretty vague.

i cant claim to be well informed about it since i am not american and not aware to all those internal problems but from the little i saw he seems to change his stands according to his crowed. he seems to me more like a popstar than a candidate.

EDIT: saying that mccain shouldnt be in office because he is old is to pick on old vs young card and that is irrelevent EXACTLY as skin color.
in other words, instead of saying that Mccain will die from old age, and a heart attack from panic no less, why wont you actually support the ever changing policies of obama?

Spartan27

08-29-2008, 08:24 PM

hmmm, interesting things being discussed.

Palin is a very interesting choice, I have to say I didn't see it coming, but then again I also haven't been paying attention enough with the search, I just started Graduate school so I haven't had as much time as I once did.

As for Obama's speech, I thought he did a good job, I thought he combined some themes well, he put some meat on the bone in a sense by explaining his plans, he also still had many of his overarching themes still in play. David Brooks raises some good points, but you have to remember he's a conservative, of course he's going to play down the speech, just like how more liberal writers are going to play it up, personally i think it was in between the two.

It's certainly going to be interesting to see Palin and McCain vs. Obama and Biden. The Palin pick does seem to me as a obvious move to attract former Hillary supporters, I understand it, but I would hope they would actually look at her politics before supporting her, I don't want to sound misogynistic but it's just a natural worry when you see something like this happen, same thing would happen if we had a different election where someone picked for instance a Latino in a bid to grab their support.

This statement Hillary left 18 million cracks in the highest, hardest glass ceiling in America. But it turns out the women of America aren't finished yet, and we can shatter that glass ceiling once and for all. seems like a blatant attempt to say "I'm a women vote for me!", just seems wrong.

As for the experience factor, well she's a first term governor, is that more than being a first term Senator? I don't really think so, you could say that she has more experience in a executive position, but she isn't running for president, she's running for VP, that isn't the executive of the nation. She has no experience in Washington, I'm just saying the experience thing between the two tickets is something that you can argue, but I don't see much difference.

In the end she's a typical conservative, and a move by the republicans to try and pull in women voters.

Rain

08-29-2008, 08:31 PM

ookami- so because McCain is old he will have a heartattack from panic and die...wow way to generalize

if anything he is less likely to panic because he has experienced some serious stuff, and live through that

can we leave the abortion debate to that thread and not this one:sweat

Shdo- McCain's health check was actually kind of poor...well not so much poor, but he has a number of health problems especially compared to obama

I can't recall exactly, but all of McCains were dozens of pages, obamas less than 1

ookami

08-29-2008, 08:31 PM

Shdo: It not Irrelevent age effect the way we work how long we have left to live and out over all performance , skin colour doesn't effect these , any way I didn't say anything about Obama being better because hes Black today so there was no reason to start this up.

Spartan27

08-29-2008, 08:37 PM

I know we've had this discussion in the past Earthforge, but really Obama has said pretty clearly what his stances are, he's detailed his plans for what his "change" entails, how is his presidency going to have any McCarthy elements? He's not going to be cracking down on those that disagree with him, there aren't going to be black listed people that lose their lives, there won't be any witch hunts, if anything McCain would be more of a danger in these terms, I mean the Dems aren't the ones who are invading our privacy, the Republicans are!

bradc

08-29-2008, 08:41 PM

McCain is 72 years old, by the time he's in the office he would be wee too old and if he's not having other health problems cropping up while running it (ie: heart attack, cancer, high blood pressure...etc). Now he's got a hot chick of a VP Sarah Palin who's' 44 years old, which somehow leads to wrong mental image that goes on behind the White House. :sweat

There's nothing wrong with a female VP; it's her stance I don't agree with it. Not to mention she just signed a law that allows Trans-Canada Corp, which cost $26-billion-dollar pipeline to ship natural gas from the North Slope to the Lower 48, through Canada. But due the high inflation of gas cost it's impossible right now :|

Shdo

08-29-2008, 08:43 PM

old age also bring wisdom and as a war vetran who is still in good health i really doubt he will die during office.

obama is 47 year old, isnt that a little too young and inexperienced for the leader of such big country? if you say that age is a factor than its goes both ways.

Spartan27

08-29-2008, 08:53 PM

Kennedy was young he seemed to do a good job, Bill Clinton was almost just as young as Obama, he did a good job, McCain is 72 and has had 4 bouts with Cancer, do you think he will last until 76? I say it's not that certain, Palin is simply not that ready to lead, she comes from Alaska! There are barely any people in Alaska, she has no foreign policy experience, you can say that Obama doesn't have any experience in governing, but the simple fact is that at least he has experience in some of the big issues that affect the whole country not just Alaska. She's 44 years old, she's younger than Obama.

As for experience making you wiser and what not, I don't really know if McCain's experience really helps him that much, the guy has basically never gotten involved in economic issues, if you noticed earlier in the campaign he basically used surrogates to speak on that issue. He also is more stubborn than tough. It's not a bad thing to change your mind on a issue. There's so much talk about being tough on your stances, but this is such a outrageous thing to say, since it basically says that you shouldn't look at problems as being multifaceted or changing, it's a good thing to have a president who can change their mind depending on what they see to be the right stance.

ookami

08-29-2008, 08:53 PM

John McCain has reached the age where hes more likley to die, atleast Obama can last a term.

Shdo

08-29-2008, 08:59 PM

there were good rulers in the world both old and young, or in other words, age is not a factor.

a young ruler might die as well and if the reasoning is who is more likely to live than why wont we lock them in a cage and let them fight in a gladiator like way? or force them to have a marathon and the one still alive will be the president? oh wait...its stupid.
saying that he will die because he is 72 sounds so stupid to me considering my country had rulers much older and they did just fine even in the face of total war.

its sad that you base your vote on who is more likely to pass the avrage life span in america (80 years).

Spartan27

08-29-2008, 09:03 PM

Shdo, what I'm saying is that just because McCain is older doesn't mean that he is wiser, I wouldn't vote for him, because I think he will make a bad president, better than Bush but I still see him as being out of touch with the world. The guy also has a had a lot of senior moments, forgetting the difference between Sunnis and Shia that sort of stuff.

Shadoblak

08-29-2008, 09:03 PM

earthforge

08-29-2008, 09:19 PM

Spartan: No, Obama is a liar so how can you be sure of his "policies"? And how can you be sure what he'll do? My relation to McCarthy is because he is using similar tactics: gathering a cult of followers, using bandwagon fallacies. It's easily recognizable.

I don't believe the dem's are better than the repub's in any way. They can be both great (Lincoln and Clinton) or they can both suck (Bush and Obama.) Neither is better than the other. However you say Obama isn't leading a witch hunt. Isn't his attacks on Hillary solid evidence of a witch hunt? He used a majority of his supporters to mock Hillary and demonize her. She didn't deserve that. They were using tactics in the Obama campaign similar to the republican strategy. Attack and demonize.

It doesn't matter if they have little experience only if they are credible, honest, and have good stances. Obama may have good stances, but he is in no way honest. Clinton was honest, only in a stupid affair was he not. Obama has done something worse: giving an African school the hope of funding and maintaining itself by promising money, and never delivering.

Experience is always good. It means that you have had a longer time to develop your reflexes in the political atmosphere. A person makes their decisions by using their past experiences to guide them. I'm sure I said this before, so read all of my last posts, Spartan. There is nothing wrong with experience. McCain is just a guy whose past experiences define his policies. Obama is either using logic to determine his policies or just pandering. Given his past, I'd say Obama's just pandering.

On his VP pick:

Oh, being a governor is much more than being a senator. A governor has to make the decisions every day for their state or else they get thrown out of office, a senator has the choice to avoid making decisions by passing. So obviously being a governor requires much more time and much more experience is gathered.

Personally, I like her. Though I don't agree with her stances, I respect that she has used her past experiences and critical thinking well to come up with her conclusions. She is a very good choice by McCain. Her state has shaped her, and I admire her strength in fighting for the Alaskans. She is similar to Clinton in her determination. Their stances may be different, but they are both fighting for their beliefs.

bradc: She's just doing what benefits her state. Alaska is reliant on the oil/gas trade. It makes perfect sense.

ookami: Can you say something of value to this talk please? The reasons?

Shado: Try me. Polls can also be misleading, especially on the internet. I don't see many sources I can easily trust. How about you suggest one?

ookami

08-29-2008, 09:19 PM

Lol yeah age brings wisdom....... Alziemers and incontinance ¬¬. Age brings wisdom how old is George Bush?

earthforge

08-29-2008, 09:22 PM

ookami: Respect your elders. They know more then you most of the time. How about you listen to them once?

ookami

08-29-2008, 09:24 PM

errrrm no I will respect my familys elders and my friends families elders but I'm never going to respect John McCain. They don' know more than me todays schools are much more advanced than the one our grandparents and parents went to.

bradc

08-29-2008, 09:25 PM

Shdo I agree, but sometimes old age comes with a price and sometimes they when they haven't realise they reach their limit. Someone else has to take charge, but they can still be helpful and guide the younger generation much like Castro Fidel, who lasted longer than any president in history, who still choose to remain in the sidelines.

Sometimes too young is also a problem, if coming from a small town with barely a city-size population, or have experience with outside world, then you have problem. The world is vast and communicating in diplomatic manner with other countries is what keeps the economic going, or creating jobs for the economy.

A president and prime misters are leaders, they represent the citizen of their country and their people. If they don't have experience with bringing people together, understand how the economic and business system works and their only focus and goal is only greed, then there's a problem that may lead the country into disaster. Let's not forget silly bills and laws that sometimes get passed... :|

Shdo

08-29-2008, 09:36 PM

when i look at mccain he dosnt look that old for me, some of our PM looked really old and were older then him and they did great job.

when i hear that he will die in office i can only laugh at the ignorance as if the president medical condition isnt monitored or that a war veteran will die from panic over what exactly? not to mention that palin isnt that bad of a choice to succeed him in case he will die (and as much as you know obama might die as well from something so why not go to a 20 year old president?)

in other words, either talk about policies and stands or keep comments about who is older to the presidential gladiator thread.

ookami

08-29-2008, 09:41 PM

well I heard some good words from Barak Obama "John McCain has sided and agreed with George Bush 90% of the time, and george bushes tactics to bring down a terrorist organization that operates in 80 countries , was to invade Iraq and this is not the America we need." also Sarah Palin is under investigation in alaska , how trustworthy is she?

earthforge

08-29-2008, 10:09 PM

ookami: That investigation has been about solved.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4634538.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2 ("http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4634538.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2)"
And funny, that McCain admired Obama right before Obama insulted him. Dishonorable and a liar.

Mounting charges also on the cult of Obama's plate: misogynistic, siding with Putan, etc

ookami

08-29-2008, 10:15 PM

Whats wrong with siding with puten isn't an agreement between Russia and America good or do you want a nuclear winter. Everyone is shocked with McCain choice because shes too young and if anything does actually happen McCain America will be left in very In experianced hands and the fact is she was governing more deer than people thats not very good.

Shdo

08-29-2008, 10:20 PM

mostly because russia is trying to undermine the freedom of several countries in the area. if the options are to bend over or get nuclear winter than you are doing something wrong.

bradc

08-29-2008, 10:21 PM

Most males don't make past 80 years old; you wonder why they need to keep their health in check, or headed for the senior homes? I wary if McCain ran for office, there been more health news headlines than what he has done for economy... At least that's what comes to mind: "This just in, Pres. McCain has a heart-atatck and found dead in his office."

ookami

08-29-2008, 10:30 PM

bradc:true

Shdo:A nuclear winter means nothing survives , now winter being the word Russia has an edge meaning they nuke you a lot of people die , you nuke them some people die its the land mass you see yours is a lot of citys Russia is a lot less so apart from killing everyone you have options like make friends with Russia and play nice or bend over and let over people suffer.

♠ Saint ♠

08-29-2008, 10:31 PM

I was holding out hope for a good VP pick for McCain but eh, I'm let down again and frankly, I'm not surprised. He picked a veritable nobody to lasso in female voters, it would seem.

It occurs to me that should McCain bite it early on and leave Palin as President, she will set the standard for every female president that follows after her and she'll either make it harder or more difficult for another female to be elected. I dunno, I was kinda hoping to have a shot at being President one day, perhaps, maybe not the first female President, but definitely one of em. It'd be nice if the standard wasn't set too high.

Shdo

08-29-2008, 10:38 PM

......ookami...a city center is a city center, moscow is as explosive as any other major city and once the populations centers are gone it doesn't matter if there are sparse populations in the mountains because those people dont have nuclear codes.

you think that a nuclear war means nuking every single inch of a country? NO! you nuke civilian centers and military bases.
it doesn't matter if its a country the size of Russia or the size of the UK, the result is the same, you either have anti ballistic system and save some people or you dont have one and die.

a president that bend over to not piss someone doesn't work, it didn't worked when they gave Germany Czechoslovakia and it wont work now. bending over for another power isnt a pro for a president.

as for a female president, if you want one you will need another before you. that means that since clinton is out you need mccain to come into office and then die so that palin is the president and break the glass ceiling.

ookami

08-29-2008, 10:39 PM

Thats a strong argument , but its a let down for me too, yeah Obama may have little experiance Joe Biden I'm not sure he does good speeches though. I would say that women do find more confidence when talking to other women so yeah it could grip more women voters. But theres been arguments about race and age why should we hurt each other with gender arguments , lets keep this one clean.

bradc

08-29-2008, 10:50 PM

Obama has Hilary Clinton his side who has more experience with the public, while Sarah Palin is known to be a governor of her town, but she lacks experience in dealing with a larger number of people. Where Obama has a large number of people based on his experience with his speeches @D@

♠ Saint ♠

08-29-2008, 10:53 PM

It was a smooth move by the Republicans to do that though, you've got to admit. No one saw it coming.

Shdo

08-29-2008, 10:56 PM

well i dont think tha rep are as divided as the dem so this move is really good.
but she is pretty much unknown, i guess that we will learn about her more and more in the next few days.
keep in mind that no one really knew obama a year ago.

ookami

08-29-2008, 11:19 PM

I guess your right we should find out more information before we debate this two much.

Inevitable.Exit

08-30-2008, 02:43 AM

Excuse me Inevitable, while I hand you an article that crushes that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/opinion/29brooks.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=sloginI didn't read that. It started off stupid. Anyone who would deny that Obama's speech was amazing is drinking the kool-aid and off their rocker. I've even seen far right politicos commenting on how amazingly well delivered it was. You might not agree with the content, but to say it wasn't an amazing speech is just ridiculous. He is one of the best speakers in a while. Put down your bias, take off your blinders.

I found it quite humorous, didn't you?Nope.

Hey, what the hell's wrong with his VP pick? It was damned good. Her decisions and reasons were all very good. Funny thing is, she has even more experience than Obama, and Obama's a presidential pick. The dem's are seriously screwing up. So, now the experience debate maybe unconsidered, but the McCain-Palin ticket has more applicable experience credentials than the Obama-Biden ticket.Are you joking? What is wrong with his pick? Everything? McCain is a 72 year old man who has had 4(2?) bouts with cancer. His VP pick needs MUCH more weight as a potential president than Obama's. She comes from mayor of a 9,000 person town. And governor (1 term) of a state with more reindeer than people. More experience? Sure...experience that doesn't matter. I don't call 0 Washington experience and mayor of a small town experience. Grats on one term as governor? On top of 0 foreign policy experience, she has 0 foreign policy OPINION. And you can honestly say that she is ready to be president? Earthforge I'm starting to take you less and less serious every time you post.

It looks like you and ookami are getting misogynistic, just like in the last thread. Can you come up with a good sound argument to justify your position? Yes and I just did. Stop with the misogyny attacks. No one here is being like that. I explained my reasons. You don't like Obama, does that make you racist? Because that is what you are doing to myself and Ookami. It is a ploy to try and get women voters (which it won't. Don't kid yourself).

I found it entertaining that while the cult of Obama was drooling in awe of the one, the republicans were actually on the move. McCain made a very good pick while Obama was too busy maintaining his cult. Don't agree with my characterization of cult? Read the comments on David Brook's column I added the link too. They sound just like people from a cult, don't they now?Keep drinking the Kool-aid. Because people who are finally motivated because there is a new young mind in Washington (Roosevelt, Kennedy etc) it makes them a cult? Ya. Right.

You claim to be a democrat, but more and more I take you as a right-wing looney who thinks every male who doesn't support a female candidate is a misogynist. You and some of the Hillary whiners need to get on board and realize she lost. Get over it. Support the democratic party.

Because I have news for you. If something goes wrong with this campaign, and for whatever unseen calamity Obama loses, guess who the blame is coming to? Yup. Your girl Hillary. So news flash, she won't win in 2012 either. If you enjoy GW and his past 8 years then support McCain. His voting record and ideas show he is more of the same. Period. That isn't rhetoric. While our people were dying and underwater in New Orleans, Rambo McSame and GW were eating cake. Yes, cake.

She was a stupid choice. A ploy to get women voters and independent voters. It won't work. Period. Shes too far right wing for independents, and she's too pro-life to get most women. It creates a buzz now that will die in a few weeks. When she debates Biden and gets exposed it will show. So I guess that makes me a misogynist. But you don't like Obama. So how does it feel to be a racist?

Shdo

Hey guy I know you don't understand the whole experience thing, but you have to consider what is going on with America right now. We just had the worst 8 years in American history that I can recall. People are anxious for a change. Although most of Obama's ideas can be claimed as old, it is something new to Washington; as in hasn't been seen long enough to be called old. They also claim McCain's VP pick has more experience than Obama. Sure she does in terms of years. But its QUALITY of experience that matters. Shdo she is in a VERY realistic line to take over if McCain kicks the bucket (72, 4 bouts with cancer). She was on a pta, school board and mayor of a 9,000 person town. Thats basically equivalent to being a dean of a small university. She had ONE term as governor. One. That's no Washington experience. As of last year, she said she had NO opinion on the war in Iraq. So 0 foreign policy experience and 0 foreign policy opinion? So yes, in years she is more experience but hardly in quality.

Change is vague, you're right. But if you follow Obama he has said more than CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE. He has outlined what he aims to do, how he would fund it etc. So he has stated what his change would be. You just have to find a balanced media to show it. ((For internationals I would say CNN is fairly balanced. They usually have an opinion for Repubs, Dems, and Inds.))

People have known about Obama for ~4+ years btw. He burst onto the scene officially at the DNC in 04 where people began tapping him as the next presidential candidate if we lost.

The republicans are just as divided Shdo. Most the (sane, REAL democrat) Hillary voters have come back to the party. This election is still Obama's to lose. Remember, most conservatives do not like McCain. He probably gained a few more with his VP pick. Neither party is in a great place.