Too Young and Underage For Olympic's Gymnastics

[bradc]

There has been controversy about China without understanding the main source. What maybe right for one's country maybe different for another. But other countries also have the same type of system, where parents send their children off to boarding schools for both education, and their path for career.


Read: Boarding Schools Generate China's Sport Stars (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92479526)

[Miyona]

Okay...well...this was my last post in the other thread....

@Bradc - There is no way a 3 year old can decide what she wants to do when she grows up. At 3 you barely can talk >_>.

and about your talent coment...could you really tell someone has enough talent to be a gymnast at 3 years old?

so I guess its 4, but not much of a difference from 3.

[bradc]

But you get both education and career for the price of one; it would that make you fortunate being provided by the government, and not out from your own pocket. If I was about their age today and going to school at age 3-4 to boarding school and train to become a gymnast, my own parents would have to pay for it.

A child can walk, talk and tumble at age 3-4...

[Spartan27]

There is a reason why this is looked down upon by most other countries in the world. You could be trained and educated by the government without taking away a child's parents. There are many athletes that are in government programs but they also get to see their parents more than once a year. It's a cruel system that has been done away with in many countries where similar practices used to take place, Germany, Russia, Romania, etc. Australia has national sport programs they provide training and education but the don't take away a kid's parents, especially not at the age of 4!!!

[bradc]

I guess you're not from either of those country to understand why the government would invest in them. Because at a younger age your body has more flexibility, the older you are your bones lacks flexibility and the body is stiff. Why do think people struggle at those events during gymnastics?

[Miyona]

But you get both education and career for the price of one; it would that make you fortunate being provided by the government, and not out from your own pocket. If I was about their age today and going to school at age 3-4 to boarding school and train to become a gymnast, my own parents would have to pay for it.

A child can walk, talk and tumble at age 3-4...

...barely talk...its not like they would know that many words yet...

It doesnt matter whos paying for it, if they are being forced into it in the first place. Thats the government deciding what you will do for you...

it would make sense if a girl was around 10 years old and has been taking gymnastics a few days a week. Then had an option if she wanted to go to a school like that or not. Then she could be like, "I like gymnastics, I would really like to try this school out!"

[Spartan27]

I guess you're not from either of those country to understand why the government would invest in them. Because at a younger age your body has more flexibility, the older you are your bones lacks flexibility and the body is stiff. Why do think people struggle at those events during gymnastics?

Nope I'm from a country that doesn't believe in forcing young kids away from their parents so that they can provide glory for the nation. You also do know that many of the girls that are at the olympics start at that early age, it's not like they don't have the opportunity to start gymnastics, they just aren't taken away from their parents.

[bradc]

Gymnastics require flexibility. Sure some parents decide they want their kids to be gymnasts that's their problem, but the government is also paying for it then it's worth the sacrifice. The kids don't mind, if to make their parents happy and their country happy as a nation. Visit the country and ask the locals...

Have you yourself taken Gymnastics before?

Most people are able to do backflips and handstands and cartwheel.

If the child was at 16-20 their body will have difficulty bending and twisting in harder and difficult acrobatic moves. If the child start young then they become more flexible, they probably do things you would be marveling at them, why they would take such risk in their life to become gymnasts.

[Spartan27]

No I never did gymnastics, but my little sister did, I've seen the 6 year olds that can do more stuff than the 13 year olds, I understand the development that is needed, I also can see that these kids can improve and development without having take away their families, look at all the other competitors, I mean those U.S gymnasts won the overall comp. without having to give up their families, you don't have to do that to achieve greatness.

Of course the people would say there is nothing wrong with it, it's been the system for their entire lives, it's just apart of how things are. The kids are also used to it, they don't know anything else than training their entire lives, of course they are going to be programed to like their lives. I want to ask you if you think those American gymnasts or Russian or German or whatever if they would like to sacrifice their families to focus exclusively on gymnastics I would bet they would say no to that, since many of them have made it to the olympics without making such a huge sacrifice.

[Miyona]

Gymnastics require flexibility. Sure some parents decide they want their kids to be gymnasts that's their problem, but the government is also paying for it then it's worth the sacrifice. The kids don't mind, if to make their parents happy and their country happy as a nation. Visit the country and ask the locals...


Of course a 3 year old wouldnt mind >_>


If the child was at 16-20 their body will have difficulty bending and twisting in harder and difficult acrobatic moves. If the child start young then they become more flexible, they probably do things you would be marveling at them, why they would take such risk in their life to become gymnasts.

practing at a young age a few days a week isnt bad, but not a gymnastic school at 3 years old, 7 days a week away from their parents...

and I dont think you are getting what we are trying to say...its not about 13 year olds being better at gymnastics. Its about a 13 year old having no choice in what she does...

if a girl wants to be a gymnast then fine, but at least wait till she can decide that.

[bradc]

Because the people live in rural areas of the country... That's why boarding school exist in the first place. Of course, who wouldn't be in their right mind not wanting to be with their own loving parents. But you if you have large country as China and Russia, then you need boarding schools.

Explain to me why there seem to be lots of young athletes in the recent Olympic Games? You can mold something from nothing? A person's life starts somewhere at a young age, or how they were brought up from molding nothing to become something.They become something and they represent the country and the nation; it's something they are proud of, which it's called PRIDE.

[speedphantom]

This is more of a culture issue than a sporting one really. I saw this Australian female gymnast making excuses about why they aren't as good at gymnastics and she was sorta saying "our Australian lifestyle is better than your Chinese one since we don't take it as seriously and we can live a normal life while training". That's what she effectively said but in an indirect way. She values having fun in life more than training and education which is what the Chinese value most. People just don't understand the culture of the Chinese people so all this discussion has come about.

Maybe the kids don't want to go into these special sport schools and maybe they'd prefer staying at home while training but the fact is that is what it is.

[Spartan27]

There are many boarding school all over the world, most do not have kids that are 5 years or younger.

Yes you can mold someone to be anything, but is that ethical? I mean it's one thing when a country invests in a promising 8 year old, it's another when they're 4 years old, it's not that a country would invest in a person in order to win gold medals, it's the fact that they would start so young. I've known people that are forced into sports that they are very good at, but that doesn't mean they always like it.

I mean gymnastics does not become something that the child does just because she loves the sport, they do it because it's their job, it's their national appointed job.

Speed is ultimately right, it is a cultural thing, it's even a political thing, I mean it's Communist and a Chinese value. Personally I don't agree with it.

[bradc]

The kid may or may not like it; but that will be unknown answer for this the internet and not talking to them directly face-to-face to really know what's going on in their lives and lifestyle they have. If their goal to be in the Olympics Games and representing the country, then they should be proud to be part of the something, which only happens every 4 years.

[Spartan27]

The kid may or may not like it; but that will be unknown answer for this the internet and not talking to them directly face-to-face. If their goal to be in the Olympics Games and representing the country, then they should be proud to be part of the Olympics, which only happens every 4 years.

Agreed, I think it's a wonderful experience for all the competitors, whether they are 40 or 15.

[speedphantom]

It has nothing to do with communism really. It's just about Chinese Confucian ideals which talk about education and how it can make you rich or give you social status and nonsense like that. Since I'm a Chinese born in Australia I have mostly Australia values so yes, I'd prefer kids being kids but if that's how they are in China then thats what it is. It's an attack on culture to criticise the Chinese sport programs, not an attack on the sports program itself so people should be mindful of this.

[Spartan27]

So it's just a coincidence that many communist countries employ similar methods?

[speedphantom]

Depends where abouts those countries are:p. If they're in Asia then it's probably a similar mindset I'm guessing since Chinese culture has spread over many countries.

[bradc]

My country is bananas and crazy; a complex society, there are things one would not agree with their government and how they make certain choices with a population of 1.3 billion people making up 1/5 of the world population.

Chinese Canadian myself, but being raised with a Canadian background; sometimes one would wish the government would do more into funding education and improving other systems as well. The Canadian team hasn't won anything, so it's pretty disappointing.

[aquavit]

Speed, it is Chinese culture or is it the communist government imposing it's desire for gold medals on its citizens? I think the USSR, East German and Romania also had sport schools where young gymnasts selected by the state lived and trained year round to bring Olympic glory to their nations. The demise of communism in these countries did away with these government funded sport centers.

These Chinese sport centers where promising young children are taken from their parents will certainly give the Chinese more gold medals than other countries but at what cost to the children and parents? Remember that not everyone who goes to these sport centers are going to be Olympians. If you are not the top athletes, what happens to you? What happens after your Olympics career is over?

Also, my impression is that these sport centers determine what sport you will do based on your body type and athletic skills. As I said, I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about a female weightlifter. Her parents felt guilty for giving the government permission to send her to the sports center because they felt she would think they did not love her, but they were poor so they felt they had no choice. Her mom is concern that after the Olympics, she will not be able to find a job or a husband.

I am sure the Chinese athletes are proud to represent their country and they likely love their sport. But that choice should be made by the athlete, not the state or parents for that matter.

Since the topic heading is about under-aged gymnasts, I am also going to offer my opinion on that debate. I am Asian and I do get mistaken for being young but there is a developmental difference between a 13 or 14 year old and a 16 year old. A few of those Chinese girls, in particular, the one who did the fabulous uneven bars routine looks younger than 16. Why does it matter?

First, it's a matter of respecting the Olympic gymnastic rules. In sports like diving and swimming, they allow 14 year olds to compete. In gymnastics the gymnastics federation imposed that rule supposedly to protect young gymnasts. Other countries abide by the rules and if it turns that some of the gymnasts are under-aged, it's unfair to the other countries' gymnasts. Someone like Nastia Liukin would have been part of the 2004 Olympics but she was 14 so she could not compete then. She had to wait another four years before she was eligible to compete.

Second, a 14 year old gymnast is likely more flexible, smaller, and has less wear and tear on her body than a 16 year old gymnast. These gymnasts practice their routines thousands of times and that really wears down the body. These young Chinese girls are so tiny, it helps them go higher in their tumbling and releases, allowing for higher levels of difficulty in their routines.

Third, while a veteran might have the advantage in terms of dealing with international competitions, sometimes the younger gymnasts have no fear. They might not be under the same stress as the older gymnasts. As we know from Michelle Kwan's Olympic performances, sometimes a younger, less experienced athlete will beat out the more experienced one because there is less pressure on the younger athlete to succeed.

[bradc]

Are the government imposing the sport system on the people?

They are given choices; only people make the choices whether it be right or wrong, the choice is given to them. Not the government making the choices for the people; the government can't keep track of 1.3 billion people in its own country, there be a riot and that can be very dangerous if certain things are not sustains to keep people from causing trouble. The government only funds the education system, boarding school for sports... etc for the country, same for any other country.

And because if the person and the family was poor; living in poverty, you have a choice to decide. Would you rather risk something part of your life, in order to gain for something greater? Is entirely up you and your family...

[aquavit]

So you think that weightlifter and her family had a choice in the matter? How many parents would willingly choose to send their young children away? In fact, the father stated that if he had money, he would not have agreed to have his daughter attend a sports center.

[bradc]

Do you live in a nation with 1.3 billion people? Do the math... Can you keep track of all of them, and control all their lives at the same time. It's ridiculous and impossible. They aren't throwing their child away... If the child was thrown away, they would be sold to black markets, and be left as orphans.

[speedphantom]

@aquavit - Even the brutal Chinese government wouldn't snatch away children from their parents to turn into sports stars. It is the parents who want to ease their own financial burden or who want glory for their own children so if you want to blame someone they are to blame.

The government can desire all the glory in the world but if the parents don't want to send their children away, the government won't have any athletes.

[aquavit]

I didn't say anything about China controlling the lives of their people. I came from a communist country so I can offer you my opinion about communism but it would be really off-topic. I am pointing out that I disagree with how the Chinese government goes about running these sports centers. You say other countries fund boarding schools for sports. Which other countries?

In the US, the government does not have the same kind of system. It is the parents of the elite athletes that support their child's careers and usually it's because their child loves the sport.

[Shdo]

its like sparta of gymnastics (well...in sparta the kids would be taken at the age of 7 from their parents...)

but you need to remember that chinise mentality isnt like a western, for cultural reasons mainly. what you see as stealing the child from the parents is more like giving the child for the sake of the glory of china, why is it wrong at the age of 4 and right at the age of 10? its all a matter of prespective and of mindset and a child can be considered an adult or a working member of society in different ages around the world.

if the family make the choice to send the child to some kind of an academy for sport, how is it different than the dalhi lama who was sent to be the leader of his people when he was 3 years old?
or parents who send their children to beauty competitions at a young age without considering that the children dont really know if they want it or not (debatable)?

[bradc]

I came from Hong Kong; a society that embraces the Western Society with Two Government System. China and Greece ideals are pretty similar due the Silk Road trade from centuries ago. But as the child gets older, they can pretty much think for themselves...

Blame and hate your parents, but they still love you D:

[Rain]

The 16 year old rule has been in place since 1992, if it was felt that it should be changed it should have been rought up, with that being said, since I don't think any country protested the age rule, they should all be above the limit, and if they are not they should forfeit what they won


but, I don't think its a problem. IMO the olympics are about the best competitor winning a competition, so if a bunch of 18-20 year olds get beaten by a 13 year old, the 13 year old is better, they deserve it

and again, i don't think that being lower than the age limit is necesarily a benefit anyways

[Shdo]

in the sense of agility being younger is better, in a way its a cheating.

but if its considered unfair than you start to catagorize the players with age groups and there are enough medals as that is.

maybe a minimum age for each kind of competition?

[Rain]

agility may be better, but what about muscular devlopment

a 12-13 year old won't as strong as a 16 year old (especially if it a guy) and strength is an important part. To keep your grip on a bar, handle swinging around, lift yourself up etc

and in the NYT artle it said that the younger they are the more they are willign to do, less fearful of falling, and they don't have as good of a sense fo what is going on (ie winning for your country)

but honestly, i don't see those as helping either

a minimum age for each category, i think that would be too much a hassle, determining what age each group should have

i say just do away with the age limit

[Miyona]

Do you live in a nation with 1.3 billion people? Do the math... Can you keep track of all of them, and control all their lives at the same time. It's ridiculous and impossible. They aren't throwing their child away... If the child was thrown away, they would be sold to black markets, and be left as orphans.

Eh? I dont think anyone said all 1.3 billion people lives are being controlled >_>

but, these gymnasts where certainly controlled...those girls are what we are talking about.

[bradc]

The girls were trained hard to developed the technique and skills; being completely synchronized. Just saying, if any country had training system like China did there wouldn't be a competition. Why would China and US are always head to head on the charts during the Olympic Games? The country invest in training their athletes, no matter which it may be. Age is not the factor, it's always comes down to mastering the skills and tecnique that the body can do wonders; but a younger age is still much suitable for gymnastics because you need that flexibility in certain sports that body is made for to do the task.


If the person was older, say 40 year old on Uneven Bars, the person would be struggling and having much more difficulty doing swinging on them like a monkey.

[Orihime Aizen]

Actually, at 3 years old, my daughter has quite the vocabulary and is very articulate. We have conversations, and I never talk down to her, which is why many people who meet her, thinks she's 5. Her pronunciation and word choice is very advanced. But I am home schooling her right now because I believe the US education system is inadequate, and I don't believe my daughter's intelligence should suffer. I would love to be able to afford to send my daughter off to a private school, and I probably will enroll her in a private school when she gets older, and my husband and I are able to put away enough money. I think that children should be allowed to dream and grow, and they should be allowed to change their minds. I'm all for training at 3 years old to become an athlete, if it's what the child wants and the child is given a well rounded education to open them to new opportunities as well. The child should also be allowed to change their minds. Right now my daughter wants to be a pop star :P, so I have her in dance class and voice class, and it's fun and not too strict. If she tells me tomorrow that she doesn't want to go any more, I'll pull her out, and she can try something else. Dont discount the wisdom and intelligence of children just because they are toddlers.

[earthforge]

As a student who knew what she was going to be since 4th grade, I think "so what?" If the child wants to be a gymnast at a young age, go ahead and let them. If they don't want to be, they can find a way in academics or something else. It depends on what rigor the family's interested in. If it's a family with an interest in sports, then they will probably board their child into the rigors of sports. Only if the child is extremely vocal about not wanting to go down that path is when I'd consider that they are running into trouble.

But if a child wants to get ahead, so be it. There is no need to hold them back. In the cases of where the child is pushed, personally I wouldn't do it but do we have any say in that matter? It depends on the parents.

[CeriaHalcyon]

I believe the kid deserves the chance to compete if she's at the olympic level regardless of whatever age they happen to be.

But for china to stand there and claim she's older, when their own media released her real age months ago seems alot like cheating to me.

[bradc]

We're still unsure of their age...

Given two ages and birth dates; how can you tell which one is fake and which is real? How would you know if the kids technically as of their age being 16 years old? There are other people competing the Olympics being 13-14 as well, how do we know they are not cheating too? The Age Requirement been blown to proportions to really know their actual ages. Have you ask them when is their birthday before they compete in the games? People can lie about their age; no different from changing birthdays and names...

[emoloz]

Yeah thats so true. You can't prove it either because they'll have faulty birth certificates and the lot. I don't agree with it and I think China is treading on thin ice if the rumours are true of course. I think they may have lied on a few but not as many as people think they have like people say some Chinese do look young for there age anyways because they grow up being smaller built etc. The thing is the children who are competing at a young age have admitted it and said Yes i am only 14 years old and i want to compete so let me. There not cheating because it is allowed they have made a conscious choice to do it most have gone though the signs up and stuff and have been approved. The thing is that were hoping if the children are 13-14 in China have done that too but we don't know. With china we haven't got a clue due to there censorship and rules etc. There saying medals can be taken of them if its not to be true but people don't want to interfear because you never know what could happen its hard enough to communicate with china let alone bring them down. I know they if they have done wrong its wrong but with China the stakes are just too high and people don't want to mess it up. Its good that we even have live footage because they were being fussy with that.

Am all for having a kid training at a young age but only if they want to do it. Forcing a child do anything is just wrong but they if they go "oh i want to be a swimmer" or whatever why not? if they try it and hate it at least they've made a decision. At 3 i went to all the clubs and such and hated pretty much all of it and my parents never forced me to do anything they wanted me to have a go and such and i did what i wanted. Just force to me that is wrong. Encouragement is fine.

[bradc]

Because the child is young doesn't mean they are not capable, they are just as wise and intelligent as the parents themselves. Sometimes parents makes a decision for the child, may not always be right and they want everything best for their own children, and some sacrifices are to be made. The child are always being looked down on; humiliated and being viewed as weak, rather then being viewed on a parallel level during the games and schooling, being treated as an equal.

As for the age requirement; some country have people younger to compete in the games, but their age are not shown because the media wants all cameras on China. Is not just China who gets all the blame; the unfairness of the Western media continues with their chorus.

[lilsakura]

I think that China does things differently. I may not necessariily agree with what they're doing with those 3 yr. olds but I..I don't even know. First of all, the leader of the Chinese girls gymnasts (I don't remember her name :(), her parents didn't want her back because she was getting national fame and reeling in the money. She called her parents asking to come home but her parents refused apparentl, all of this according to US media. If it is true, then I feel really bad for her. I think a girl in that situation probably is closer to her coach and fellow teammates than her actual family. Your teammates and coaches become the ones who you're closest to. It's a little sad,imo, but I guess I have no right to judge. :( The girls should have the right to choose, though. :(

[bradc]

The problem usually lies with the Western Media wanting to twist the facts around and because their team lost; that will continue for a while until the Olympic Games are over. China hasn't broken any rules at all. China and Rules in one sentence is hysterical in sense when they do obey them; or they wouldn't be hosting it in the first place.

I was reading somewhere before that IOC didn't add the age requirement until the female gymnast won gold; you wonder who's doing all the cheating in the background just to make certain team that represent the nation look bad? Before that in past history, most gymnastics were pretty much between the ages of 13-14 competing in the games. Some people look generally younger than their actual age as well because they are afterall athletes.

Athletes should be healthy and young. :D

[Hiraeth]

You're so right, a gymnast over the age of 20 could never walk away with a medal!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/sports/olympics/18silver.html?ref=sports

Let alone someone who is 33

[the_cobbinator]

I don't see a problem with it, especially in gymnastic.

Your body is only flexible at early years, meaning you only have small time to make it big on as many areas as possible it's only natural to start early.

naturally it can't be your own choice to start training at age 5 or 6 but it's procedure pretty much all top competitors underwent this procedure and because of it they own at what they do. Gymnastics can't be started at age of 10 simply because your body won't allow it anymore.

If it's moral, if it's right, I don't care because I personally enjoy watching it.

@Poster above me: it's an exception, not a rule. From biological standpoint it's quite impossible.

[Babbo]

We're still unsure of their age...

Given two ages and birth dates; how can you tell which one is fake and which is real? How would you know if the kids technically as of their age being 16 years old? There are other people competing the Olympics being 13-14 as well, how do we know they are not cheating too? The Age Requirement been blown to proportions to really know their actual ages. Have you ask them when is their birthday before they compete in the games? People can lie about their age; no different from changing birthdays and names...

Your point? Modern Chinese administrations have history of lying to look better. You think Chinese economists don't trust government data because it's so very reliable? It's very much a cultural thing and it doesn't surprise babbo in the least that government would consider lying about the gymnasts ages to "save face." And regardless of whether the rule is fair or not, it is a rule <.<

[Shadoblak]

The problem usually lies with the Western Media wanting to twist the facts around and because their team lost; that will continue for a while until the Olympic Games are over. China hasn't broken any rules at all. China and Rules in one sentence is hysterical in sense when they do obey them; or they wouldn't be hosting it in the first place.

I was reading somewhere before that IOC didn't add the age requirement until the female gymnast won gold; you wonder who's doing all the cheating in the background just to make certain team that represent the nation look bad? Before that in past history, most gymnastics were pretty much between the ages of 13-14 competing in the games. Some people look generally younger than their actual age as well because they are afterall athletes.

Athletes should be healthy and young. :D

Are you serious!? Because we LOST?! Maybe its because saying those babies are 16 is the biggest fuck you dickslap you can give to the world??
Are you seriously saying it's fine for bones muscles and tendons to be stunted for Olympic greatness?? I guess you're also all for child sweatshops!
Workers should be small so we can fit more in and they should have more energy! Get em young so they cant complain!
Are you even listening to yourself??

[Hiraeth]

@Poster above me: it's an exception, not a rule. From biological standpoint it's quite impossible.

By using the term impossible you're implying it could never happen. Which it clearly has. Choose your words better my unbelieving friend.

[Spartan27]

Are we STILL talking about this?

[Shdo]

this is debate section, we ALWAYS talk about it.

[bradc]

I actually looked it up, IOC pretty much ignored it. He, the gymnastic said herself is 16 years old. We can continue to question about it, but she wouldn't give an rat ass what people says about her. And there been cases in the past with the IOC, where young gymnastic started off being 13-14 years of age entering the the games.

Is pretty much a dead end from here...

[Babbo]

I actually looked it up, IOC pretty much ignored it. He, the gymnastic said herself is 16 years old. We can continue to question about it, but she wouldn't give an rat ass what people says about her.

Oh. She said she's sixteen. That's it! Lets end the discussion! The person with the most to lose must have not reason to lie!

And there been cases in the past with the IOC, where young gymnastic started off being 13-14 years of age entering the the games.

Is pretty much a dead end from here...
Babbo gets it. In China two wrongs make a right, don't they?

You couldn't possibly be listening to yourself. Babboo knows he'd drive myself crazy if he had to listen to that kind of endless BS for his entire life <.<

[Luhy]

I dunno, is this really a mystery?... I think just by watching the Olympics it was obvious by their nerves/phycial appearance/reaction to failure and success that they were indeed under 16 years old... I can't say I know much about China, but honestly, look at the girls, they were not 16 :hm And that's kind of all there is to it imo o.o In Elementary School we had a girl from a latin country who was like 5'9" when not one other person exceeded like 5'2"... After a few years we found out she was secretly 3 yrs older than the rest of us... It's not hard to get falsified paperwork XP

[BioWeapon154]

another case of parents speaking for their child rather than letting the child decide what they wanted.