Were the Police's Actions Right or Wrong?

[Frosted Heart]

A continuation of a discussion in this thread. (http://www.bleachasylum.com/showthread.php?t=5525) Please only post here about it.

I'm sure some of you have heard about the bus beheading incident in Canada, but now they are saying that the killer ate parts of the victim. The man was reported to have hacked pieces of of the victim after the slaying.

Here's the report:
A police officer at the scene of a grisly beheading on a Canadian bus reported seeing the attacker hacking off pieces of the victim's body and eating them, according to a police tape leaked on the Internet Saturday.

In the tape of radio transmissions, a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer refers to the attacker as "Badger" and says he is armed with a knife and scissors and is "defiling the body at the front of the bus as we speak."

On the tape, which lasts about 80 seconds, officers continue to detail the attacker's movements until one reports, "Badger's at the back of the bus, hacking off pieces and eating it."

The RCMP described the tapes as "operational police communications and, as such, are not meant for public consumption." Police said permission had not been given to use the radio transmission, which was posted on LiveLeak.com and picked up by other Web sites.

Officers were responding to a desolate stretch of the TransCanada Highway about 12 miles from Portage La Prairie, Manitoba, after the bloody attack late Wednesday on the bus traveling from Edmonton, Alberta, to Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Vince Weiguang Li, 40, faces second-degree murder charges for the slaying of a 22-year-old man, whom friends and family identified as Tim McLean. Police have not confirmed the victim's identity.

Passengers said they had just reboarded the bus after a break when the suspect -- for no apparent reason -- stabbed the man sitting next to him dozens of times as passengers fled in horror. He then severed the man's head, displayed it and began hacking at the body.

Here's more info about it. (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=692762)

Do you think the police should have apprehended the man before he could hack and eat the body, or do you think they did the right thing by isolating him first? Discuss. :)

[Shdo]

i gave my reasons back there, its wrong and he should lose his job for it.

but again, he is a canadian and i am israeli and the threats are diffrent in each country as well as the mentality of how to treat them. it would be considered a horriable blunder if the cop didnt do his job to end the crisis before it would grow any worse. there were enough casses where cops took their time and people paid the price and its not something acceptable, risking lives of victims is unaccpetable.


WARNING! there is death in the next few videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_OHAlh3UDw&feature=related
in this video, the tractor drove on several cars (killing 4) and the driver was shot down, but he didnt died andthe moment the soldier and cop were distracted he continued his march, as you can see the soldier and cop dont take their time and get on the tractor to take out the killer before he will cause more damage. the man with the yellow bright shirt is also a cop, the driver is beside him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEuvbyvQld8&feature=related
in this case the civilians and cops shot the driver from several directions (the tractor door was locked so it was impossiable to reach him after the first shot, not taking a risk the group cut him down (this happens 2 weeks after the first tractor attack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I4O0WSvevs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQnnABlpYI&feature=related
the attack where the cop didnt entered the place and a soldier and a civilian finished the terrorist themselves.
the victims are 15-26 years old, if the cop actions were to save a single one it would be worthy, not to mention that if the civilian and soldier werent there the terrorist might have found the hiding student and the death toll would rise even more.

[soulreapur3]

I say he should have tried to subdue the subject as soon as he arrived. He should have taken action. That's my take on it! It was wrong to wait.



Thanks for doing this Frosted Heart, I'm glad you understood about not bashing the cop in my thread!

[Rain]

Well, there was more than one officer right

and after the first couple stabs it was clear the guy wasn't going after anyone else. I can understand them wanted to make sure the guy wouldn't harm others, but if you have a number of officers, and just one guy horribly assalting another, yeah, one officer should have intervened earlier

[bradc]

The situation can go either way based on the circumstances.

Police/Cops still need to be sacrifice; if their job is to protect the citizen in the first place. The situation where the kid was already dead, there wasn't anything they could do about it. But they could have stop the man once majority of the passengers got off the bus than isolation when they got there. Pre-cautions; the isolation was ensure the killer wouldn't do anything else or have caused more damaged that have already been done, and making sure no one else was hurt after the first attack. Another person would have gotten hurt in this case or a police who's just doing their job.

[Inevitable.Exit]

The man was clearly armed with only a knife. The police should have done something instead of simply continuing to talk about it. He was not alone either as there were other police with him.

It was clearly obvious the guy was not going for anyone else, and the police should have acted in a more timely manner. As soon as the call went out of a murder with an armed suspect on a bus, SWAT (or the canadian version) should have been called ASAP to end the situation. This is obviously a case of not acting appropriately and the person in charge should be released/demoted.

[Frosted Heart]

I think the police didn't do anything wrong, mainly because of this:

"By the time the police arrived, the driver and the remaining passengers had all safely exited the bus," said Sgt. Steve Colwell.

No civilian was in immediate danger from the man, who was clearly disturbed. The passengers and bus driver were safe, and there was little risk of anyone else stumbling onto the scene because it was at a deserted part of the Trans-Canada Highway. They had him isolated, so they were probably trying to talk him into giving up. When he tried to escape, they promptly arrested him.

Yes it was unfortunate that he managed to eat his victim, but rushing him without a plan could lead to even more deaths. And for what? It wouldn't have saved anyone's life.

I understand that cops need to take risks to save lives, but they have to be smart about it too. In some situations, you have to wait, either to form a plan for a safe take-down of the suspect, or to end it peacefully.

[Shdo]

and how can he be sure that there was no more passangers inside? because the terrified shocked passengers told him?

[Primera Espada]

you're speculating that various accounts were simply inaccurate?

You don't know the exact conditions, it's entirely possible he could SEE enough of it. I mean, they could see where he was, and what he was doing.

Not to mention he was still hovered over the initial victim. If there was anyone else in the bus they would have had to be well hidden or completely ignored by the man.

Since most countries require the police to try and save the criminal as well as the victim, the right choice of action was to try and resolve the situation as peacefully as possible, especially with an obviously mentally destabilized individual who could be a danger to himself as well as anyone, officer or not, that got near him.

To use aggressive response with force would simply be irresponsible.

[Shdo]

but he didnt even tried to solve it peacefully, he simply stood there and watched.

[Frosted Heart]

Grey Hound drivers are trained to pull over and call 911 when something bad happens. They probably also know how many passengers they have, so they could always do a head count to make sure everyone is there. Also it's a bus with giant windows so it's not hard for the police to look inside and see if anyone is trapped along with the suspect.

The police officer who saw the person being eaten wasn't alone. There were other officers with him, so maybe he doesn't have the authority to approach the suspect. And they were probably trying to negotiate with him to surrender peacefully, and if he refuses, to wear him down by letting him wait till he gives himself up, or they can take him down safely.

[Shdo]

if he wasnt alone then it makes it even worse, because several officers didnt do anything but watch at the killer.

as for the big windows or the bus driver, a passanger might have been on the floor or between the chairs curled up, and the bus driver like everyone else might have got the numbers wrong since they were terrified and shocked.

[Frosted Heart]

IF there was a hostage, then I can see the police handling things differently. However, it was established that there was no one else on the bus, so they acted according to that information. They only had the suspect's life to worry about.

And what would a bunch of police officers rushing the man accomplish? No innocent bystander is in danger and they have him surrounded so he can't escape and threaten someone else.

[bradc]

In real life scenarios you wouldn't be rushing in when there is already and/or hostage. Every situation is viewed as a CRIME SCENE; even something of a simple car accident. Things are not suppose to be touch and sorted out in a quick manner. There has to be a plan for everything and gather evidence what really happened. The police aren't always going to be there at the exact given time.

[Shdo]

when the police excuse is that there might not be a hostige its a risk. this time there was no one next time who knows? would you criticize the cops then? when its too late? if there is a risk to life there is no excuse, and the saying that this time nothing happend dosnt apply, its what people who were in near car crushes say "it didnt happend so its all okay"

[Fyrefox]

Why does next time matter? This is on the cops in this situation. Shdo, find half way in between your elbow and shoulder. The man and the victim were that close. I could kill half a dozen people in a greater range than that before you got onto a bus. The victim was already dead, there was nothing they could do for him, and so would gain nothing from boarding the vehicle.

Also, it's possible the bus driver wasn't panicking at all, some people are extremely calm under fire. And when lives may depend on it, accuracy is quickly forthcoming.

[bradc]

In this case, one of the passengers and the bus driver took the situation into their own hands to stop the bus, but the kid was already dead. By the time they informed the police, it was too late no matter what. In order to get the entirely situation under control; the police must show up one way or another.

The killer was carrying a rambo knife (same size of a kitchen knife) hacking the kid into shreds. The rest of the passengers wouldn't be able to fend off themselves, but you can they were lucky they managed to get off the bus before another victim was taken and claimed if the criminal chooses to do so continue the man slaughter. The police were also in state of shock when they found the guy eating the kid; how would you think they would react to the situation, if you were put into their shoes? If things were not taken step by step in a slow and calm manner?

The police aren't always going to be there on time to save your life. The situation was isolated in a remote area as isolated as the situation itself. Is not always every man for himself, if people don't work together as a team. I guess the best military term would be SNAFU: Situation Normal All Fucked Up D:

[Shdo]

next time matter because the cops tottaly failed to stop that criminal while he started to eat the victim, and when its seems they had numbers on their side as well.

[Frosted Heart]

It's a shame the victim was eaten, but I think keeping everyone alive is a higher priority to the police. That also includes keeping the suspect alive so he can stand trial for what he did.

[Rain]

They should have stepped in, but not stepping in shouldn't be a huge punishment to them

The guy was dead, they should have saved his body from being violated, but it isn't as if that is their number 1 priority

First, the save they living, and prevent more causualites, then they try to save the one(s) being assulted and apprehend the suspect

they put the lives of the living first as they should

so they should get into slight trouble, but to lose their jobs or recieve a huge punsihment is a mistake IMO

[Shdo]

again, all that is assuming that there was no one else in the bus, maybe the passengers were right and maybe they all ran away without even waiting for the police. we dont even know if there were other passangers outside with the cops at the time.

with so many maybes there is a room to error and a chance that there was a 3rd person inside. and when life is on the line (including potential) the cops need to intervine, especially when they have numbers on their side.

[Frosted Heart]

Well, there's some info in the article I linked to. There's probably more floating around the web somewhere.

Mr. Caton said he and other passengers prevented the attacker from getting off the blood-soaked bus by threatening him with makeshift weapons -- a hammer and a crowbar.

"We were telling him, ‘Stay put, stay put, stay there, don't try to come out.' He tried to get the bus working and the bus driver disabled the bus somehow in the back. I'm not sure how he did it, and at that point, I think the police showed up," he said, adding officers rushed them away.So, all the passengers evacuated the bus when the suspect began to stab the victim. They kept the suspect isolated on the bus, and the bus immobile until police showed up. And when they did, the police escorted all the passengers away to safety.

The police have standard procedures to follow when they're faced with situations like this. They know they have to secure the area ASAP, and that means getting anyone who isn't a police officer off the scene.

[Shdo]

still the passengers couldnt be sure that there was someone between the chairs hiding, the bus isnt made of glass and there are plenty of blind spots for them to miss. the officer should have entered and yell if there was someone ELSE in there, if there was a answer he should have moved in to stop the criminal. either that or moving in from the start, not taking any risk.

[bradc]

Not in real life you don't!!

The bus has "glass windows" and doors. Blind spots are everywhere.

The bus was already in lock-down and disabled.

A trucker came by and gave the passengers crows bars and what have you to defend themselves when they were holding the bus doors, but the criminal got the knife through the door (yes another victim would have been claim simply being closed to the bus doors). The criminal went after them when they tried to save the kid themselves. Every passenger were in state of shock, even after evacuation on the bus, as were the police themselves when they got there.

That was how chaotic the situation was and you weren't there to witness it. The police secure the place immediately once them manage to obtain the criminal; using whatever standard procedure. The civilians were only able to save their own lives, and doing what they can before more lives would have been lost.

[Fyrefox]

Shdo, if you charged at me, I would plant my foot firmly in your face.

It's the same thing here. To apprehend him, they would have to get close to him. If they did that without thinking, somone else would have gotten hurt. Also, it sounds like the body had already been defiled by the time the cops got there, so they would have accomplished nothing. You seem to like arguing points repeatedly, though, so have at it.

[Shdo]

the cops had numbers and equipment (maces, sprays, tazers, guns, they had to have something) they didnt had to act without thinking but they should have acted. standing there and reporting for a minute and 20 seconds how the criminal is cutting and eating the body means they didnt really do their job. if they were more then one then what excuse they have for standing and looking at the criminal?

[bradc]

A saying goes: Numbers don't make figures; liars who figure.

The passengers were unarmed. The criminal was able to disable the bus from lock-down to drive it even. While keeping the criminal isolated on the bus; doing what civilians can do while their lives were also on the line... By the time the police got here, they had to clear the unarmed civilians out before they could approach the man in a calm manner and detain him with standard police procedure through negotiation, and telling him to step down. The man was already surrounded by police; fully loaded with gun against butcher knife; it doesn't take a genius to know who wins gun vs. knife during such situation.

[emoloz]

The guy was already dead as far as I am aware from reading into it so I guess the officer did what he though was best Sure he could have done more to save the body but there wasn't sadly s much hope. I could see the copper maybe traumatised a bit from what he had seen also I mean its not everyday some cops see a guy at a back of a bus stabbing someone and then preceding to hack bits of to feast on it. So you gotta look at it both ways you can't just say oh the officer was wrong because he should have done this you have to base on many other factors of what the officer was also seeing. That guy would have suffered some slight anxiety at least from seeing what was in front of him for sure.

All the passengers were supposedly of the bus I think that what have read so he posed no more danger to anyone so isolating the guy was probably a good thing to do to home in and actually get the guy. The police but the living first, I mean it would have been great if he culd have saved the guys body but making sure he was isolated and couldn't get of the bus to arrest him and save him from hacking other people to pieces and eating them was his upmost priority.

Police have this as i call it instinct where they have to quickly analyse the situation, if he saw that guy was still breathing he probably would have saved the guy but asked for back up so the guy couldn't get away but he analysed in seconds the guy must be dead so i have to save others lives I mean he only had a few seconds to look at the situation also so cut the an some slack he did try.

Losing his job would be stupid. Suspension if they think he needs it so but rom my point of view he doesn't need anything.