Are the scales being tipped?

[Fyrefox]

I wanna ask your opinion, is the African-American anti-discrimination movement on the right path? Or are they simply tipping the scales in their favor, until eventually it's the Anglos who are enslaved? Is this really 'racial equality'?

I'll post my opinion in a minute, along with the figures to back it.

[Shdo]

are you talking about affirmative action? in the end it should be canceled once its goals have been reached which is to close the gaps that were created by discrimination in the past.
the question is 'when will it be canceled?' 10 years? 20 years? 100 years?

also the poll is a little confusing because by law there is equality (ignoring the affirmative action) but in day to day life there are always people who will discriminate, on all sides.

[lilsakura]

I wanna ask your opinion, is the African-American anti-discrimination movement on the right path? Or are they simply tipping the scales in their favor, until eventually it's the Anglos who are enslaved? Is this really 'racial equality'?

I'll post my opinion in a minute, along with the figures to back it.

Hun, I'm sorry but that seems to out of line. No one is trying to enslave anyone else. We should all be treated equally. Our self worth isn't dependent on what are features are or our racial/ethnic backgrounds. I don't think anyone is trying to tip things over and take control but rather they are looking for equlity on every playing field. How long has America been around and how long has it taken for both women and other races to make it as far as they have. I can tell you right now that every person who is motivated will try to get as far ahead as possible, regardless of their race. I find those who believe in racial superiority to be foolish and shallow-minded.

[Rain]

This is almost like asking if affirmative action is racist

It is, but it also was, and could very still be, very necesary


But the way you make it sound in the first post

"are they tipping the scales" makes it sound as if one side is against the other, trying to one-up each other

same with the enslaving comment. It isn't one side against the other


racial equity won't be reached by having all sides having equal rights or even when people stop being racist

it will only stop when people stop caring about race

[lilsakura]

it will only stop when people stop caring about race

I'm so with you on this one. :D

I've always grown up in such diverse communties in NY and my friends come frm all different cultural backgrounds, I've never cared. It's a person's character that should influence whether you like them or not. It's a person's acheivements, intelligence, character traits, quirks and etc. that make them who they are. It has nothing to do with appearances. When I first came upon this thread, I found it half amusing and half insulting. It seemed so racist to me. Maybe you didn't mean for it to come out that way but that really is how it seemed. Mind you, I'm already restraning myself.

[Shdo]

still, as long as people catagorize one another in races there would be racists.

but i think the catagories should stay because when people blend too much in culture and other things then diversity is lost and the world become less intresting.


as for the actuall topic, since many people here are not american (but affirmative action happen in many countries) i think that someone should put some data on the subject.

[Rain]

I wouldn't say its so much categorizing yourself, but rather, seeing the category as a group (this is hard for me to explain my thoughts on:()

like if someone from the same category is mocked, you feel offended, whether it was based on the person or category


lilsakura- I find it insulting as well, I think (hope) it might just be bad wording on fyrefox's part.

[bradc]

The world is colour blind in plain sight. Any discrimination would affect any cultural groups, including natives and indigenous people that one never hear or see; unless one travels the world to meet them who are still living the nomadic lives.

Discrimination still exist due to criticism and point of view how a person should live, but everyone and individuals lives are different and how they are brought up; people should respect each other regardless of their skin colour and culture.

The scales are only tipped when one's judgmental towards another.

R.E.S.P.E.C.T. :p

[Fyrefox]

XD Sorry, that probably was bad wording on my part.

I, personally, am not racist. I accept most any person as they are, because they probably aren't going to change just for me. The only people I hate are fakers and criminals (different subject, sorry). As I live in the South, I hear a lot of racist opinions towards both sides. But a friend of mine recently received an e-mail containing some interesting data, most of it pointing toward the fact the blacks commit more crimes against white than the other way around. I'll get figures for both and post them, if I can.
------------
Lilsakura, I really hope you didn't base your opinion of me off of just that. To me, if it ain't contraversial, it's probably not interesting. I said what I said mostly for shock value, because people tend to react better to something they find offensive.

And that's as close to an apology as you'll probably ever get.

[Shdo]

well, there are more whites then blacks so maybe that a cause? besides the data actually support the affirmative action:

because of inequality in the past and discrimination in financing their schools, there are many blacks who deteriorated to crime (where it wouldn't happen if they had the environment to flourish without crime AKA education).

discrimination create crime on the long run and i think this data you are talking about support that affirmative action still didn't succeded.

[Rain]

fyrefox- yeah, somewhat bad wording;)

but anways back to the topic at hand


whether or not those facts are true (blacks commit more crimes against whites than the other way around) are true or not, just a raw figure is rather worthless

the biggest thing i wonder about is provaction (who provokes who into the crime) and fear

just because a person commits a crime doesn't mean they were the one that started the incident or even really the one at fault

I don't mean to offend, but just look at what happened when you said something for shock value and angered quite a few people

if that escalted to a fight (just an example, not making stereotypes) the other party would probably be charged before you (its unlikely you would through the first punch)

now just because someone else got charaged, and you didn't, does that really mean anything about the persons or groups as a whole

[bradc]

I personally don't think is matter where you live...

There's bound to be people saying something offensive to the point where it becomes racist, and hurtful. Mostly when people are uneducated about other cultures, or bother to understand and learn about them. There's all kinds of people out there, no matter what racial or culture background; and they can be very sick and gruesome when it comes to committing crimes. There's no line drawn whether the person is yellow, black or white...

Discrimination is pretty much everywhere. No race is superior than others...

Even psychology fails to even understand the criminal mind D:

Read: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/index.html

[lilsakura]

Fyrefox-It's fine if you didn't mean it in any bad way. I'm glad.

Also, regardless of crime. Just to generalize people based on that is ridiculous. Those who commit crime are obviously in the wrong but the fact that someone stops to look if they are black or white or whatever skin tone they have is not right either. It isn't their skin color that's brought them to do bad things but rather their skewed sensibilty.

[Shdo]

still if the data is true you cant ignore it, it means that for some reason one group is having more tendancy to attack another. this is a problem that need to be dealt with and not being ignored for the sake of politicly correctness.

[Rain]

Shdo- data being factually correct and the conclusions drawn from it being correct are two very different things

like the facts that fyrefox may give us, out of context, without any support they are totally worthless

and even then, there is the thought that well what if minor crimes just aren't reported for whatever reason

maybe a black man is less likely to report the crime than a white one

that also skews whatever findings would be given

[bradc]

There been a recent case in Canada..

Here's an example: A Chinese man stabbed a boy on the bus, while sleeping. The man doesn't have a criminal record, who managed to commit a crime that day. Usually factors in the man is mentally ill. Which makes no sense at all... Why commit crime when you have no criminal record?

How can you define a normal person who is a "nice guy" commit a crime? Not even data can make up for gruesome or minor crime murders, whether the person is Asian, African-American, American, Canadian... etc.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/01/stabbing-victim.html

[Shdo]

this is running from the data, when fyrefox will give us the data we could say much more.

are those crimes are simple attacks(which could be provoked) or other crimes (rape, robbery, theft and so on)
also, if a black man is less likely to report a crime against him that also is an important piece of data because it raises the question why he wont contact the police? could they ignore him? catagorize him? blame him even? this is discrimination and is very important to this thread.

there is alot of data on the subject and we can learn alot from every piece but for now fyre only have the who do more crimes against the other. ignoring such things only makes them florish.

[lilsakura]

Shdo- data being factually correct and the conclusions drawn from it being correct are two very different things

like the facts that fyrefox may give us, out of context, without any support they are totally worthless

and even then, there is the thought that well what if minor crimes just aren't reported for whatever reason

maybe a black man is less likely to report the crime than a white one

that also skews whatever findings would be given

:yay Rain! Great job on the clarification. This case may seem a while back but the jena six spiel was something that showed racial hostility where one race had gotten the hit harder than the other one. This is not fair at all and i find racial hostility to be insensible and downright disgusting. The fact of the matter is that people should look more at the person's stability and environment than at the skin color. Also, stats aren't the most dependable source for information. I'm a huge anti-racist and the fact that race even factors into anything is just...

[bradc]

Because a person lives south means there's more crime? There's crime everywhere; some manage to make to news headline and some never get reported at all. Some are even dead before they even found the body...

Why would a black man commit more crime than a white man when both are equally put to justice when it factors in both race commit a crime? D: Whether it be minor or major, that's up for the court ruling to decide.

[Shdo]

race is entering the factors not because that one group is more violant geneticly but because years of discrimination causes higher rates of crime in the discriminated group, the same could be said if the two diffrent groups are both of the same race but other attributes split them(rich-poor, native-immigrent, gender).

[lilsakura]

Because a person lives south means there's more crime? There's crime everywhere; some manage to make to news headline and some never get reported at all. Some are even dead before they even found the body...

Why would a black man commit more crime than a white man when both are equally put to justice when it factors in both race commit a crime? D: Whether it be minor or major, that's up for the court ruling to decide.

Wow, I hope that wasn't directed toward me. I was just giving a case. It didn't have any connotation liked to it. Crime is everywhere, regardless of race or region.

[cornflakes]

On the subject of political correctness, I think it can be taken too far. Take for example the Washington D.C. aide who was fired for using the word "niggardedly" in a statement-- I'm pretty sure his use of the word had nothing to do with "nigger". I watched Casablanca recently. It's an old movie, from 1942, IIRC. In the movie, Humphrey Bogart has a black servant. If it was released in this climate of political correctness, I'm pretty sure some activist group or another would protest about "reinforcing stereotypes" or some nonsense like that.

On the higher crime rate of blacks over whites, do more blacks commit crimes because they're black, or is it because people lower on the socio-economic scale tend to commit more crimes, and black people are usually lower on the socio-economic scale? To test this you simply have to take a random group of blacks, and then take another random group of whites that come from the same income group, and compare the crime rate. I think you'll find the difference is negligible.

[Rain]

lilsakura- yeah, that bugs me as well

but I think what bugs me more is not necesarily that, but how quickly everything is reduced to a race-reated crime

Whenever there is a story about a crime, and the two parties just so happen to be of different races, it almost always seems to become a hate crime

Why can't you dislike a person for who they are, not what race they are

and that may seem like a joke, but I'm serious, no person can get along with everyone, and I'd rather there be peace rather than hate, but why does hate seem to boil down to racial caused, and not just a conflict of personalities


cornflakes- good point

even if it is determined that blacks commit more crimes, we cannot mix up causality with a simple correlation

[lilsakura]

lilsakura- yeah, that bugs me as well

but I think what bugs me more is not necesarily that, but how quickly everything is reduced to a race-reated crime

Whenever there is a story about a crime, and the two parties just so happen to be of different races, it almost always seems to become a hate crime

Why can't you dislike a person for who they are, not what race they are

and that may seem like a joke, but I'm serious, no person can get along with everyone, and I'd rather there be peace rather than hate, but why does hate seem to boil down to racial caused, and not just a conflict of personalities


cornflakes- good point

even if it is determined that blacks commit more crimes, we cannot mix up causality with a simple correlation

Hon, you put it so eloquently. I'm not sure I could've done the same. :thumbs Crime is not always done on racial reasons and even if they are, the crime is limited to that one person alone. It is only he/she who is in the wrong. Also, criminals aren't just "bad", sometimes there are reasons why they do the things they do. Obviously the reasons don't justify the crimes, it never does, but it still gives some insight and more perspective.

[bradc]

The word "Nigger" slang is originated from the word "Negro" means black deprived from Latin. Look up in the dictionary if you like. No matter what language of origin or colour of skin, why would it matter what family income they are from? There are many cases of murder where a person is even from an average household commit a crime. The income of the person's lifestyle pretty much wouldn't matter after the crime is committed...

Not every crime is consider a hate crime either, as other examples are posted. People do foolish things and sometimes people should mind their own business, and try to keep out of trouble. Even people who aren't involved get hurt in some cases... You can't define it when it happens, particularly when you and someone's life are in danger.

[cornflakes]

The word "Nigger" slang is originated from the word "Negro" means black derived from Latin. Look up in the dictionary if you like.
Yes, but the point I was making was that "niggardly" is completely unrelated to "nigger" except for phonetic similarity. That's like objecting to the use of the word "duck" because it sounds similar to "fuck".

[bradc]

Kids learn to swear before they can understand most things around them. Not much different from 13-17 year old teen killing another student younger or like themselves either. Just saying... It cannot even be define. Words hurt people, when people can twist words and use against another just the same... Life sucks D:

[Fyrefox]

Okay, now this is a debate.

Getting down to the topic, I searched every single .gov site that came into my head, and a few major newspapers, and some other (rather obscure) places, and got: nothing. Since it's not any place like that, it's probably not as reliable as I'd like it to be. Sorry y'all got all worked up over it. But the point I was trying to draw from it is this:

Is it fair for someone to go out and commit a hate crime and then turn around and scream for equality? No, it's really not. We're equal as things are right now, even though hate crimes will persist. That's not to say all people do this, it's a minority of the movement. But they scream the loudest, sometimes.

Is that confusing? If it is, sorry again. I don't know how else to explain it.

Oh, and I noticed how the people who voted 'no' aren't saying anything at all.

[Rain]

Fyrefox- lol, no worries, theoretical debates are best at times anyway

Is it fair for someone to go out and commit a hate crime and then turn around and scream for equality? No, it's really not. We're equal as things are right now, even though hate crimes will persist. That's not to say all people do this, it's a minority of the movement. But they scream the loudest, sometimes

interesting idea

although it kind of goes back to what I was saying before

If a person commits an actual hate crime (their sole motive was race, it wasn't just coincidental) then clearly they must not see equality to begin with

So, in a sense, its possible that their demands for equality are justifiable, they don't see equality but they want it.

Although even that to me shouldn't be considered a hate crime

So, i agree, in actual hate crimes, not something that is just called a hate crime, the one who did tha action shouldn't be allowed to ask for equality

but, in the same vein, he should be given equality

Althought that leads more into the justice system and capital punishment than racism

[bradc]

If you want narrow it down further... Most hate crimes are usually a group of people picking a person, who is an outcast/a loner that doesn't fit in anywhere. Often being stereotyped based on their race and cultural background, how they dress and look; sometimes even their interest and hobbys that are found unusual to some.

Humans are similar crows, or wolf birds (group of crows known as murder), or social butterfly being categorize in different social groups, or people similar to themselves based on personality and behaviours. You often choose a group of friend that are similar to yourself, or share the similar experience as individuals.

People are taught about treating others with fairness and respect, since elementary school. But even so, kids are often getting picked on by another even at school. But harsh reality, life is not always fair and things may not always go your way when being treated unequal, or how one is brought up as a child. Adults are really no different from a kids/teens who commits a crime that you hear, read and watch from the news.


Murder is still murder; crime is still a crime, whether it involves with love or hate of another being based on their race and cultural background. Itself is colour blind too.

[earthforge]

Look, I think that African-Americans have quite fine rights in America at the moment. Sure, there are scattered racists in America (many being in the South for obvious reasons), but if you see the next generation they don't exactly care about skin color. I don't see as much beating down other races as so many people just acting sarcastically proud of their race. Therefore, I think it is a false issue. It has meaning in that there are racists around, but it doesn't mean much because the rest of America is pretty used to condemning racism. Misogynism is a whole other kettle of fish, because it is actually encouraged/debated (ie the whole "girls slowing down boys" in school thing [see http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/magazine/02sex3-t.html?ei=5087&em=&en=453cf882c1f2e580&ex=1204434000&pagewanted=print ]

In regards to the violence, it's merely male-on-male violence. see the LA crime blogs. They happen a lot, regardless of being white or black.

Justice is not blind, just cross-eyed.

[lilsakura]

Okay, now this is a debate.

Is it fair for someone to go out and commit a hate crime and then turn around and scream for equality? No, it's really not. We're equal as things are right now, even though hate crimes will persist. That's not to say all people do this, it's a minority of the movement. But they scream the loudest, sometimes.


Yeah, I'm pretty much reiterating what Rain-chan said but when they scream for equality, they probably feel like they're being treated unequally or that they feel inferior because that's how the general community has always treated them. It really saddens me to think that people should have to suffer like that because they only look different. I'm not saying their crimes will be justified but I've said this before and I'll say it again, the reasons behind it is what gives everything more insight and perspective. Things in life, such as this, aren't so black and white. People aren't so easy to figure out sometimes. People have a lot of depth to them and they react in different ways to the atmosphere and little tidbits that go around them. Also, when people commit crimes they get punished by law. He/she shouldn't just be seen unequally because of it. There are people of many races that commit crime. Does that mean they should get their rights taken away? Those who commit crimes and get a punishment equal to the weight of the crime do not have the right to complain but that doesn't mean they should be treated unequally for complaining. Everyone complains. Some just voice it more than others.

[Fyrefox]

Where did that idea of unequal treatment come in? I seem to be saying things I don't recall quite a bit in this topic. If you're simply saying it to put it out there, why did you quote me?

[lilsakura]

Where did that idea of unequal treatment come in? I seem to be saying things I don't recall quite a bit in this topic. If you're simply saying it to put it out there, why did you quote me?

Oh no, I was just going off on tangents and I only meant to quote you on the aspect that referred to criminals and their complaints on unequal treatment. The rest of it was just my babbling. :o Sorry, if you got the wrong idea.

[bradc]

Most crimes are usually males; however, females can be just as vicious, brutal and murderous just the same for their crimes. The only gender issue would most targeting gays. Another hate crime would be third gender of the human being: "gays", "lesbians", "transvestites", and "hermaphrodites" who are mostly discriminated against and usually shun from society.


I guess is time to fix the social system, along with its justice system.

[Fyrefox]

Oh no, I was just going off on tangents and I only meant to quote you on the aspect that referred to criminals and their complaints on unequal treatment. The rest of it was just my babbling. :o Sorry, if you got the wrong idea.

Thank you for clarifying.

[neoleonhart]

maybe it's just me but don't you think that retoric of this question is more than evident!!??? the answer is no, IMO. for the simple fact that people in general fear what they don't know about or what's different than themselves. so racial or any other form of discrimination will never disappear. that's just in the nature of the proverbial beast (i.e. in this case us, humanity).

because these so-called movements aren't doing things for others but themselves as crazy as that sounds.

[earthforge]

Neolionheart: Interesting but inapplicable quote you use. It will just be that some people will want to behave badly and nastily so as for their personal gain (AKA Imus case. He did it because nastyness is what permeates the airwaves on the radio because the industry isd ying. It' similar to Fox2 news.) in the case of racism. In the case of misogynism, it's the increasing male need to have property and domination over an area. This is evident by the adolescent boys going into college. They still act like middle-school boys. But the previous generation of mother's try to protect their "little children" by blaming it on the girls. This is mainly because while boys are doing worse in school the girls are doing quite well. Then alll sorts of looney proposals occur (AKA separating the genders.)

Each issue is different, but in terms of magnitude racism is not as widespread as misogynism.

[bradc]

Not all boys are stupid that you might think and doing worst in school; they are just as intelligent as their female coutnerparts. That would be your stereotype of gender right there. There's no difference whether the person goes to all Girls or Boys boarding school; and public and private schools.

A person can do good and bad in school regardless of their gender. D:

[earthforge]

bradc: Well, this problem as I well pointed out has nothing to do with intelligence. It's a question of adolescent boys growing up or not, and most do not. The point I'm making is that adults are claiming it's because of the prescence of girls doing well, and that is obviously not true. It's just the fact theat overall in school's the guys are doing worse. They are also acting more and more horrendous with each grade, even here in California.

But again, I am only talking about the US. I have no idea about racism and misogynism in other nation-states.

So, I'm not working off of stereotypes. My evidence and claims are sound.