Equality of Genders ? Yeaah or Nyaah

[Geta Boshi]

Geta's take on this matter : )

OOOhhh I am on of those people who believe men are from Mars women from Venus . BUT men and women are born and created equal . Superior gender is a myth from dark ages and why ? Muscle is replaced by Machines

Intellectually men and women were always equal . There were matriarchic societies from the dawn of civilization the only difference was physical strength . But now machines have taken over labor. So now there is no excuse to say the genders are unequal .

People should be judged on their merit and accompalishment alone regardless of gender race and orientation

ie Men and Women are equal . Standard for judging a person should be accompalsihments

[Surreal]

Why is this even an issue?

Men and women are vastly different in so many aspect but they are equal and neither gender is superior to the other.

I though this was well known ^_____^

[Geta Boshi]

This was a big issue in the forum I frequent. Actually heard rather colorful comments on this topic

[Mei]

I of course think that both genders are equal and complement each other.

But I cannot say that in every human society in this world both, men and women are treated equally.
There are improvements, but there´re also believes that are similar to the middleages (no exaggeration).

[emoloz]

Equality to all genders yes. Otherwise i will get all femanist on you. End of comment xD

[aznxenocide]

Wait, what's the poll question? Is it asking whether or not there SHOULD be equality of the genders? Or if there is, currently?

[Shinrin]

Depends on the job, females are genreally better to do some, males better to some others.

Soo...yeah, still there is places where it can be complicated in general.
Such as a female leader might have to be more harsh then general, to recive the needed respect.


Havn't tryed doing this at work, but i do admit i usually start to laugh when females get angry(when i know it'll stay verbal) ^^'
It's a bad habit, which not rarely makes the situation worse...i wonder why...

[Axie]

I believe there definitely should be equality for both genders, but that's not how it is today.

For example, when you hear the word 'nurse' you think woman right? Or when you hear, 'nanny' or 'babysitter.' It's just words that make you think it's more of a womanly job when it's not. XD

[Frost]

Women do not want or enjoy being treated as equals, but they keep saying they want it so.
I do not understand that.

[aznxenocide]

Women do not want or enjoy being treated as equals, but they keep saying they want it so.
I do not understand that.

:eek:

Probably because the conception of "equality" has been idealized and romanticized by feminists. neh?

So I STILL don't understand the poll question. Is it asking whether or not there SHOULD be equal rights? Or whether or not there is?

[Mei]

Women do not want or enjoy being treated as equals, but they keep saying they want it so.
I do not understand that.

Women want to be treated as women and not as male buddies by other men.
That is a significant difference.
But they also want to be treated equally as human beings with respect.

[Siren]

Hmm...of course Yeaah, but equality is very general. I think genders should be equal in context. Should women be subject to draft? I think not...for anatomical reasons, mostly (like pregnancy). Should men have mandatory consent for abortion? Personally, I don't think so either. When it comes to simpler situations like jobs and education there should definately be equality.

[Primera Espada]

First of all, depending on what country you're from, how women are treated, percieved to be treated, and wish to be treated is RADICALLY different.

Second of all, part of the problem is that there are many nice things put in place by society on how men should treat women. Men shouldn't fight women. Men shouldn't make the woman buy lunch. Men should work so the woman doesn't have to. A man should let the woman decorate the house/garden. A man should let the woman raise the children and only get involved when needed for disclipline, or to provide a male role model.

These are things designed to preserve a nations second most important natural resource. The number of women is MUCH more directly related to the population growth than the number of men. This helps a community survive.

The problem is, some people have misunderstood the true intentions of these things, thinking they are because a woman CAN'T do the things men do. This causes bigots on both sides, men thinking women are inferior, and women thinking those actions are SIGNS that men think they're inferior.

Third, there is this crazy notion that women are just as capable at everything as men are. Well don't be silly. There'd be no point in genders if that was the case. Men have some natural advantages and women have some natural ones. Are there exceptions to the rule? Of course. Are these enough to grant equality? Of course. Does this mean you should automatically assume someone of the opposite gender is just as good as you in anything you do? No, that doesn't even APPLY here.

Case in point, scans of the brain show that men tend to favor one side over the other (the logic side) while women favor the opposite (the intuitive side). This means that women are better about communicating, interpreting emotions, discerning negative and positive things based on appearance, etc. Men are better at problem solving, spacial relations, and reflexes. This is why gender roles exist. Not to enforce some sort of gender hatred, but to capitalize on what each gender is naturally best at. When education was a hard thing to come by, and only the rich got to partake, it was typically done by highly educated people (who, due to various factors, were men). However what happened when education became more affordable, and targeted towards larger classes, younger ages, etc? It became dominated by women. Why? Because communication was the key to educating a large number of people, especially a large number that were completely uneducated to begin with. That's why today, there tends to be a larger number of male college professors than female, since there is much less interaction, and everyone is educated enough that communication barriers do not exist.

Gender roles = playing to your strength, not against your weakness.

[aznxenocide]

GODDAMNIT what's the question? Is it whether or not we should have gender equality? Because I SERIOUSLY doubt that ANYONE in our day and age will be crying for a return of women to Victorian-era subservience. So then, what's this thread actually about?

[Zelos]

i left a forum a bit ago where this was a big issue :/ there were tons of young women there who constantly complained about gender roles and all that stuff. for example, they were tired of being told by their parents they werent "feminine" enough or were too much of a tomboy, etc etc. well, i understand >.< my grandparents think im not "feminine" enough, either. my ex was that way, too... he wanted to change me so i could become a good housewife later on :/ blah. well, thats probably the main reason i broke up with him. sorry, but i suck at cooking, hate wearing dresses, need my video games and like to go to auto races on the weekend. its funny how many people want me to change all that to be the opposite because what i do isnt "feminine".

i voted "no clue" because sometimes men are more equal than women and sometimes women are more equal than men, within society at least. physically, we both have our strengths and weaknesses, like Primera Espada has already said. its just in society where the real inequality will show up.

i think education is a good example of this. it seems like the education system these days favors girls more than the boys. proof in my area would be the year after year of girls outnumbering the guys at each honor roll celebration. in my class, there were 62 girls on the honor roll vs the 13 boys. shouldnt it be more half and half than that? the numbers for kids going to college in this area is the same way. less young men go to college than young women after high school. the schools always want to help out the "minorities" get a good education and being female just brings more education options these days, and if youre a female and a racial minority, theres even more bonuses to behold with scholarships and other things. of all the groups, the white male gets the least educational opportunities. its really quite sad.

[LiquidTheBrit]

Like the different nations, men and women have 'good' points and 'bad' points.

Women, as a whole, have been proven as generally smarter than men. However, men have a higher percentage of geniuses.

In my mind, everything evens out.

[Primera Espada]

actually, no, women are not found to be smarter than men o.O

You might be confusing it with the fact that women tend to do better in school than men, get higher grades. However, they don't tend to have higher IQ scores.

This again goes back to my reference about women excelling in certain areas due to their natural ability for communication and socializing (which is key to learning)

In other words, women can often learn easier than men, but on average, men have higher IQs.

Again, that's cause IQs are left brained and women are right brained.

[batz]

Third, there is this crazy notion that women are just as capable at everything as men are. Well don't be silly. There'd be no point in genders if that was the case. Men have some natural advantages and women have some natural ones. Are there exceptions to the rule? Of course. Are these enough to grant equality? Of course. Does this mean you should automatically assume someone of the opposite gender is just as good as you in anything you do? No, that doesn't even APPLY here.

Gender roles = playing to your strength, not against your weakness.
Very good points indeed!
Women should be given equal rights, however, I don't think a woman should fight to be equal at something she'd never be able to do. You want to be president, yes you have the right to fight for that because you can do it, you have the capabilities for it. But, women in war? I personally feel they shouldn't be fighting for that one. Its not about equality, like Primera Espada mentioned, its about the natural advantage.

[Guildenstern]

People should be judged on their merit and accompalishment alone regardless of gender race and orientation

THIS.

KNOW IT. LIVE IT. LOVE IT.

I read 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". I tore the pages out of it and used it to line a birdcage.

Case in point, scans of the brain show that men tend to favor one side over the other (the logic side) while women favor the opposite (the intuitive side). This means that women are better about communicating, interpreting emotions, discerning negative and positive things based on appearance, etc. Men are better at problem solving, spacial relations, and reflexes.

Again, that's cause IQs are left brained and women are right brained.

And you're hairbrained. Do you even know what left brain and right brain -means-? Might I direct you to this fine Wikipedia article-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain scroll down to the section entitled "Popular Misconceptions": Mental abilities are separated into the left and right cerebral hemispheres: Some mental functions such as speech and language (cf. Broca's area, Wernicke's area) tend to be localized to specific areas in one hemisphere. If one hemisphere is damaged at a very early age however, these functions can often be recovered in part or even in full by the other hemisphere. Other abilities such as motor control, memory, and general reasoning are spread equally across the two hemispheres.

Or, better yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

Broad generalizations are often made in popular psychology about certain function (eg. logic, creativity) being lateralised, that is, located in the right or left side of the brain. These ideas need to be treated carefully because the popular lateralizations are often distributed across both sides. However, there is some division of mental processing. Researchers have been investigating to what extent areas of the brain are specialized for certain functions. If a specific region of the brain is injured or destroyed, their functions can sometimes be recovered by neighboring brain regions - even opposite hemispheres. This depends more on the age and the damage occurred than anything else.

It is important to note that—while functions are indeed lateralized—these lateralizations are trends and do not apply to every person in every case. Short of having undergone a hemispherectomy (the removal of an entire cerebral hemisphere) there are no "left-brained" or "right-brained" people.

People who feel the need to dictate to me what I'm best at by throwing 'science' at me should probably worry about their own brain and read a book first.

Oh, and also? I can do any job a man can do as long as it doesn't involve lifting anything over 50lbs, because I am a lazy fart and I don't feel like lifting weights. Does that mean I am -incapable- of taking a job that requires heavy lifting? Um, no? All that is required is the desire to take on the job and a healthy body...and a weight set. A real big weight set. Out of shape? You don't get the damn job. Shockingly, this is *gasp!* the case for both men -and- women in jobs that demand lots of heavy physical labour.

Gee, if my 'spatial reasoning' and 'problem solving' skills just aren't that good, maybe I should write my old Logic and Ethics teacher and tell him to rethink all those As he gave me. Oh, and I better call my two friends from High School who work in advanced mathematics now and tell them we'd better GTFO back to clerical school to play to our 'strengths' in people skills.

In short: You're full of shitmisconceptions about gender equality.

Edit part two: I always pay for my own lunch.

[spacecat]

THIS.

KNOW IT. LIVE IT. LOVE IT.

I read 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". I tore the pages out of it and used it to line a birdcage.
Yeah the quote you posted is totally my opinion, where is it from by the way? Each person is different no matter what their gender is so it doesn't really matter who is best at what on a large general scale it matters based on the individuals.

[Marionette]

Second of all, part of the problem is that there are many nice things put in place by society on how men should treat women. Men shouldn't fight women. Men shouldn't make the woman buy lunch. Men should work so the woman doesn't have to. A man should let the woman decorate the house/garden. A man should let the woman raise the children and only get involved when needed for disclipline, or to provide a male role model.

These are things designed to preserve a nations second most important natural resource. The number of women is MUCH more directly related to the population growth than the number of men. This helps a community survive.

Since Guildenstern already threw your last argument out of the window, let me take a crack at the second one: how is throwing the responsibility of childcare and housework completely at the womenfolk and taking their right to work "nice things put in place by society on how men should treat women"? Some women might want to be the next Donald Trump, some might want to save the world and some might want stay home their whole life, but the important thing is that they all had the right to choose whatever they wanted.

I buy into the gender "separate but equal" clause as much as I buy into the racial one. How can you treat people with double standards and call those "standards" equal? There is no intellectual difference between men and women and very little jobs (at least desirable jobs) value physically strength over intellectual strength. So why should they be treated differently at all (and “different”, for the most part, means “unequal”)?

And lastly, women can have babies by themselves as much as men can. And with the technologies today, both men and women actually can have children without the other gender XD Not to say the problem with the world population today is overpopulation.

And if women aren't traditionally scientist b/c they can't be, why were they also not the greatest artist, writers, or even cooks? Not to say to be a successful political, the ability to read people would be more valuable than analytical skills.
Very good points indeed!
Women should be given equal rights, however, I don't think a woman should fight to be equal at something she'd never be able to do. You want to be president, yes you have the right to fight for that because you can do it, you have the capabilities for it. But, women in war? I personally feel they shouldn't be fighting for that one. Its not about equality, like Primera Espada mentioned, its about the natural advantage.
Even if women are generally not as physically strong as men (which I think has a lot to do with the gender stereotypes men and women grow up around). But if a woman can pass the same training and tests that men past, than she is strong enough, so why should that woman be barred from battle?

PS: I always pay for myself too, unless the man eating lunch with me is my father.

[LivingHitokiri]

Yes .

[Geta Boshi]

Yeah the quote you posted is totally my opinion, where is it from by the way?.

I came up with that ^^

[Primera Espada]

Guildenstern, so I got right and left reversed. You made an aweful big deal about a simple switcharoo o.O

All your links totally back me up though.

Since, ya know, I TOTALLY said that these seperations are just most common, not ALWAYS the case. So I totally didn't say women can't have their brains built like men do.

Anyways, back to a real point of contention

Marionette, please reread my post. Did I ever say men were forcing women not to work? Forcing them to stay home? No. Don't make it into a sexist comment when it's not, that's just being argumentative, and it's not really appreciated.

And no, women, when having a child, is basically giving up a year of their life to ensure the child's birth. That's why it's different than men, who can impregnate a lot of women in the same time a woman can have a single child.

It's a numbers game.


Oh, and whoever neg repped me saying "fail" for the first post here I made (which, right or wrong, was intelligently made and politely done) please PM me so you can express your displeasure, as I do not understand what is "fail" about my post.

Edit:

Ya know, I think some people think that certain social encouragements (like people feeling women shouldn't be in the army) is the same as PREVENTING them from being in the army, or taking away their RIGHT to be in the army, when it's simply not the case.

I mean, I think women should raise children in a family. Do I believe they should be forced to? Aw **** no. Try and force a woman to do anything and you're life is gonna be hell, we all know that.

[Marionette]

Guildenstern, so I got right and left reversed. You made an aweful big deal about a simple switcharoo o.O

All your links totally back me up though.

Since, ya know, I TOTALLY said that these seperations are just most common, not ALWAYS the case. So I totally didn't say women can't have their brains built like men do.

Anyways, back to a real point of contention

Marionette, please reread my post. Did I ever say men were forcing women not to work? Forcing them to stay home? No. Don't make it into a sexist comment when it's not, that's just being argumentative, and it's not really appreciated.

And no, women, when having a child, is basically giving up a year of their life to ensure the child's birth. That's why it's different than men, who can impregnate a lot of women in the same time a woman can have a single child.

It's a numbers game.


Oh, and whoever neg repped me saying "fail" for the first post here I made (which, right or wrong, was intelligently made and politely done) please PM me so you can express your displeasure, as I do not understand what is "fail" about my post.

Edit:

Ya know, I think some people think that certain social encouragements (like people feeling women shouldn't be in the army) is the same as PREVENTING them from being in the army, or taking away their RIGHT to be in the army, when it's simply not the case.

I mean, I think women should raise children in a family. Do I believe they should be forced to? Aw **** no. Try and force a woman to do anything and you're life is gonna be hell, we all know that.
I'll leave the overthrowing of your "pseudo-scientific facts" to people who can argue them better, for now. Which I'm sure won't be too hard if I had the time. Some creep also sent our African American students mails saying they have scientific prove that white people are smarter.

What's "social encouragements" if not a lesser degree of force? If all men in power think women should not be in the military, have decent jobs and should just stay home, they will not enlist/hire them however qualified they are, call a woman who choose not to marry a slut, and won't educate their daughter however bright she is...yeah, that's pretty much taking away their right to do anything but staying home.

And why does being important to the population make them less competent/able to do whatever they want?

I didn't call you sexist, you said it yourself. Whatever I think, I didn't say it.

PS: you also didn't explain (among many other things) being an irresponsible father/husband is a "nice thing" men do for women.
of all the groups, the white male gets the least educational opportunities. its really quite sad.
Actually, no, Asians do (especially if you are Indian). Schools don’t favor minorities just to be cool, considering most of their benefactors tend to be rich and not minorities.

And it wouldn't be so impossible for girls to do better, especially with them knowing that they have to work harder to get the same thing.

[Primera Espada]

o.O If you are going to continue to say that men are "forcing" women to not join the army simply because men ASK women not to join the army, I can't continue the conversation, as we cannot come to a consensus on what forcing is.

No, I don't believe ANY amount of peer pressure, or social pressure is forcing someone. Laws force someone to do something. Physical actions force someone. Coercing is not forcing anyone.

ps: I never said anything of the sort, so why should I explain it?

Edit: I think Zelos was talking about things like scholarship, and "leg up" programs, which are, by nature, designed to help minorities. Indeed there are a lot of problems in areas, like where I live, where the national majority (white male) is a local minority (i.e. an area more populated by non whites, or females). Such is my area. It's exceptionally difficult for a white male to get a job at a local fast food resteraunt. Why? You walk in and see 12 hispanics, all talking spanish, at MacDonalds, and, well, you are not likely to get a job there. Since you'll have to constantly ask people to speak in english, and the boss doesn't want to have to deal with people being racist against you, he just won't hire you, and will instead hire some other hispanic. (I live in texas by the way, hence the hispanics being a large population).

A similar thing happens in school all the time. Sports are often filled with minorities, as it's often their best chance at gaining scholarships, since they often come from underprivilaged areas.

Gender is becoming a similar situation, where the attempts to curb gender bias is actually CREATING gender bias.

[Marionette]

If not "force", than is "leaving them no other choice" better? Refusing to enlist/hire women, that at the very least is leaving them no other choice but to not join the army/get that job.

[Primera Espada]

We're not talking about refusing to enlist or hire women. o.O I don't know where you go that idea.

[Marionette]

That is what "social encouragements" do; if people don't think they should, they won't.

[Primera Espada]

No, that's not what social encouragements do o.O

Encouraging a guy to get a good job so his wife doesn't HAVE to work isn't the same as encouraging someone not to hire a woman to FORCE her to not work.

Society encourages the former, and abhors the latter.

[Marionette]

1. Most women, at least the ones with good-job - or careers, do not work just b/c they can't find somebody to pay for their crap. People choose stay financially independent so they can have the power to choose their own path (aka. so they won't get married or stay in a bad marriage just b/c they can’t afford not to). At the very lest, it would assure that a marriage is a marriage and not a mean for survival.

2. If a boss has the mindset that guys have to earn enough to support two people and women don't really need jobs, who do you think they will favor in career advancement? If guys have to earn two persons' bread, where do you think the other half their income will come from? Do you think all the high-paying jobs will go to the people most qualified? If you raise a girl with the mindset of, oh you don’t have to work that hard, you can just grow up and find someone to mooch off of, do you think it is likely that she will do very good? Only encouraging one party to succeed is disencouraging the other party to succeed also.

[Guildenstern]

Guildenstern, so I got right and left reversed. You made an aweful big deal about a simple switcharoo o.O

All your links totally back me up though.

Since, ya know, I TOTALLY said that these seperations are just most common, not ALWAYS the case. So I totally didn't say women can't have their brains built like men do.

Yeah, except of course where you totally didn't say that.

Maybe where you said that is in this quote?
Case in point, scans of the brain show that men tend to favor one side over the other (the logic side) while women favor the opposite (the intuitive side). This means that women are better about communicating, interpreting emotions, discerning negative and positive things based on appearance, etc. Men are better at problem solving, spacial relations, and reflexes. This is why gender roles exist. Not to enforce some sort of gender hatred, but to capitalize on what each gender is naturally best at. When education was a hard thing to come by, and only the rich got to partake, it was typically done by highly educated people (who, due to various factors, were men). However what happened when education became more affordable, and targeted towards larger classes, younger ages, etc? It became dominated by women. Why? Because communication was the key to educating a large number of people, especially a large number that were completely uneducated to begin with. That's why today, there tends to be a larger number of male college professors than female, since there is much less interaction, and everyone is educated enough that communication barriers do not exist.


OK, not in that one. Let's try another one:
actually, no, women are not found to be smarter than men o.O

You might be confusing it with the fact that women tend to do better in school than men, get higher grades. However, they don't tend to have higher IQ scores.

This again goes back to my reference about women excelling in certain areas due to their natural ability for communication and socializing (which is key to learning)

In other words, women can often learn easier than men, but on average, men have higher IQs.

Again, that's cause IQs are left brained and women are right brained.

I don't see a 'possibly' or a 'maybe' appended to any of these, especially the last one. Hmm. Nope, not in either of them. Also, you might have missed the part in my links where it's stated that:

It is important to note that—while functions are indeed lateralized—these lateralizations are trends and do not apply to every person in every case. Short of having undergone a hemispherectomy (the removal of an entire cerebral hemisphere) there are no "left-brained" or "right-brained" people.
So, no, my links did not 'entirely back you up'. In fact they raped your 'left brain/right brain' theory in the ear and forced it back into the kitchen to cook dinner for you, barefoot and pregnant. Also, you didn't get the sides of the brain reversed, for what it's worth. The left side is cast as the analytical, mathmatic side and the right side is cast as the artistic, emotional side....if either of those stereotypes were true, which they aren't. False dichotomy, anyone? http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/stories/s1137394.htm

So, um, just how much of the science on this have you actually studied, or do you take all your information from eHarmony.com?

I mean, I think women should raise children in a family. Do I believe they should be forced to? Aw **** no. Try and force a woman to do anything and you're life is gonna be hell, we all know that.

Haha. You're cute. Trying to force a woman into doing something that she doesn't want to do might invoke a reaction you don't like? How unfortunate for you. Might be somewhere right along the lines of trying to force a man to do something he doesn't want to do? Think that might invoke a unpleasant reaction too? Forgive me if I don't get out a hanky for you. :headscratch

Oh, wait. I can do this too!

"Ummm, since men are left-brained and specialize in analytical thinking and reason and are bigger and stronger on average than women, I think they should just serve in the military and science fields, lifting heavy objects, blowing things up with explosives, writing calculations and killing people, 'cause it plays to their gender strengths."

That person who neg. repped you 'fail' was a goddamn prophet.

Oh, BTW? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/06/TALKING.TMP&tsp=1

Enjoy.

[Mei]

Um, I just wanted to say that I probably misunderstood the poll question: I chose "no", because I understood the question as "Is there equality of genders in the world?" and not as "Do you wish/ want that there´s equality of genders?".
Of course I want that there´s equality for both, men and women. I wish they´d complement each other as well as in any way possible.

But in my opinion there´s no equality of genders in the world of today.
In some countries there´s more equality, but there´re also countries in which women are heavily suppressed.

Just take Japan for example (I´m no expert in Japanese culture though):
AFAIK Tokyo is a rather modern and liberal metropole, but why is it that the princess is depressive because she didn´t give birth to a boy until now? (I don´t want to imply that in Japan women are suppressed;
please don´t misunderstand me ;))

There´re also occurences where a brother killed his sister (both are members of a Muslim family), because she wanted to marry a German and would have therefore lived a rather westerly, liberal way of life.

I´d really like to know and understand why men suppressed women throughout the history of mankind?
Why is that?
Why are women not allowed to become a priest in the Catholic Church (because Jesus didn´t have a wife?)?
Why were women burnt and accused of being witches and having a pact with the devil?

Why did and do men need to suppress women?

(I don´t want to accuse men in general and I don´t want to generalize and decry all men; I very well know that not all men are this way; I´m just interested why it is the way it is...)

[Guildenstern]

Um, I just wanted to say that I probably misunderstood the poll question: I chose "no", because I understood the question as "Is there equality of genders in the world?" and not as "Do you wish/ want that there´s equality of genders?".
Of course I want that there´s equality for both, men and women. I wish they´d complement each other as well as in any way possible.

But in my opinion there´s no equality of genders in the world of today.
In some countries there´s more equality, but there´re also countries in which women are heavily suppressed.

Just take Japan for example (I´m no expert in Japanese culture though):
AFAIK Tokyo is a rather modern and liberal metropole, but why is it that the princess is depressive because she didn´t give birth to a boy until now? (I don´t want to imply that in Japan women are suppressed;
please don´t misunderstand me ;))

There´re also occurences where a brother killed his sister (both are members of a Muslim family), because she wanted to marry a German and would have therefore lived a rather westerly, liberal way of life.

I´d really like to know and understand why men suppressed women throughout the history of mankind?
Why is that?
Why are women not allowed to become a priest in the Catholic Church (because Jesus didn´t have a wife?)?
Why were women burnt and accused of being witches and having a pact with the devil?

Why did and do men need to suppress women?

(I don´t want to accuse men in general and I don´t want to generalize and decry all men; I very well know that not all men are this way; I´m just interested why it is the way it is...)

My only guess is that waaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day when humans were still getting hunted by animals before humans had reached the level of understanding we have today, they developed our current outdated gender roles as a way to increase their chances of survival against the harsh habitat they lived in. Even though we've progressed so far since those days with the advent of better technology, medicine and weapons, some people still cling to the notion because it's 'old fashioned' and 'natural' when actually 'old fashioned' and 'natural' aren't necessarily good things at all. >_>; The good old days weren't really so good.

It's in the general nature of humanity to try and catagorize and label things into neat slots because it makes things easier for people of less confidence and weaker understanding to handle. It's much easier to classify women as 'inferior' mentally than to admit the possibility that everyone is different and the chance for stupidity is equally distributed across all genders.

Also like Marionette mentioned above, social pressure has a part to play in all this. Sometimes people who might not naturally regard women as inferior to them did it anyway because it was the expected behaviour of men towards women at the time, and doing anything else might have been seen as dangerously deviant and immoral. Which leads me to...

Religion! Religion is one of the major factors in gender discrimination. Viewing women as beings under the dominion of God and man is a large and recurring theme among some of the most popular and widespread religious books around the globe: Old Testament, New Testament, Tanakh, Koran, etc. None of these books are very positive in their view of women (unless you never have sex, ha ha). Gender roles were strictly enforced by clergy, nunneries, taboo and even occasionally by torture, execution and death. Considering the sheer length of time that some of these misogynist religions have had a hold on the government and minds of humanity, is it any wonder that the ideas presented in those books are passed on from generation to generation? Strict orthodox Islam is the worst of these offenders. Stoning, beheading, female circumcision (cutting off or scraping out the clitoris, which can also be a social function separate from a religious one, especially in Africa) and gangrape are all the consequences of even daring to question the enforcement of gender discrimination in places where this type of Islam is prevalent. Christianity had this kind of violence about 200 years ago-- witch burnings, enforced exile to nunneries, painful chastity belts/surgeries, etc-- And yet even now, we see the legacy of such violence in such events as abortion clinic bombings, genocide in Slavic Europe, etc.

Pretty much, the gender discrimination that you see today is the result of nearly thousands of years of enforced ignorance by under-educated religious clerics, conquerors who used these religions to solidify their countries, and just plain assholes who preferred to believe women were stupid, base, emotion-based creatures who could be bartered and sold like property. Another contributing factor was that since women could not hold property, you could make a great deal of money through confiscation by religious authorities, blackmail or marriage.

I actually think it's a great credit to our society that despite this great backround of injustice, we've managed to come so far against gender and racial discrimination in what is comparitively a short amount of time! But we've still got a ways to go, so it's a good idea to try to learn about as much of it as you can.

Here's some handy links for you if you're interested in reading them. ^^

http://www.pelicanweb.org/solisust01.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Is+Paul+the+Father+of+Misogyny+and+Antisemitism%3f-a070396487
http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/index-eng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

I hope that helped a little bit XD I can't claim to be a qualified researcher of the topic, but I can repeat what others more learned than me have said. Just gotta keep reading and studying! :cool:

[Llama]

The Catholic Church doesn't discriminate against women. Well not in modern times. And if you think women can't become priests because of discriminatory reasons then you are dead wrong. Just read this: http://bcys.net/askapriest/why-does-the-church-say-that-only-men-can-be-catholic-priests.asp

Seriously, it's tradition. There's really no point in changing it especially since it doesn't harm anyone. And if a woman wants to take up a religious carer then she can always become a sister or a nun.

[Mei]

My only guess is that waaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day when humans were still getting hunted by animals before humans had reached the level of understanding we have today, they developed our current outdated gender roles as a way to increase their chances of survival against the harsh habitat they lived in. Even though we've progressed so far since those days with the advent of better technology, medicine and weapons, some people still cling to the notion because it's 'old fashioned' and 'natural' when actually 'old fashioned' and 'natural' aren't necessarily good things at all. >_>; The good old days weren't really so good.

It's in the general nature of humanity to try and catagorize and label things into neat slots because it makes things easier for people of less confidence and weaker understanding to handle. It's much easier to classify women as 'inferior' mentally than to admit the possibility that everyone is different and the chance for stupidity is equally distributed across all genders.

Also like Marionette mentioned above, social pressure has a part to play in all this. Sometimes people who might not naturally regard women as inferior to them did it anyway because it was the expected behaviour of men towards women at the time, and doing anything else might have been seen as dangerously deviant and immoral. Which leads me to...

Religion! Religion is one of the major factors in gender discrimination. Viewing women as beings under the dominion of God and man is a large and recurring theme among some of the most popular and widespread religious books around the globe: Old Testament, New Testament, Tanakh, Koran, etc. None of these books are very positive in their view of women (unless you never have sex, ha ha). Gender roles were strictly enforced by clergy, nunneries, taboo and even occasionally by torture, execution and death. Considering the sheer length of time that some of these misogynist religions have had a hold on the government and minds of humanity, is it any wonder that the ideas presented in those books are passed on from generation to generation? Strict orthodox Islam is the worst of these offenders. Stoning, beheading, female circumcision (cutting off or scraping out the clitoris, which can also be a social function separate from a religious one, especially in Africa) and gangrape are all the consequences of even daring to question the enforcement of gender discrimination in places where this type of Islam is prevalent. Christianity had this kind of violence about 200 years ago-- witch burnings, enforced exile to nunneries, painful chastity belts/surgeries, etc-- And yet even now, we see the legacy of such violence in such events as abortion clinic bombings, genocide in Slavic Europe, etc.

Pretty much, the gender discrimination that you see today is the result of nearly thousands of years of enforced ignorance by under-educated religious clerics, conquerors who used these religions to solidify their countries, and just plain assholes who preferred to believe women were stupid, base, emotion-based creatures who could be bartered and sold like property. Another contributing factor was that since women could not hold property, you could make a great deal of money through confiscation by religious authorities, blackmail or marriage.

I actually think it's a great credit to our society that despite this great backround of injustice, we've managed to come so far against gender and racial discrimination in what is comparitively a short amount of time! But we've still got a ways to go, so it's a good idea to try to learn about as much of it as you can.

Here's some handy links for you if you're interested in reading them. ^^

http://www.pelicanweb.org/solisust01.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Is+Pau...%3f-a070396487
http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/index-eng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

I hope that helped a little bit XD I can't claim to be a qualified researcher of the topic, but I can repeat what others more learned than me have said. Just gotta keep reading and studying!

Wow, that´s a great essay!
Thank you so much, Guildenstern! :hug
You´re my tutor XD

I have to say that I´m very interested in this topic and
always like to hear and read more about it!

I´m even thinking of studying Philosophy,
though I´ve enrolled myself for
Psychology two weeks ago!

I can´t really say much to what you wrote already, because
my questions were fully answered;
I was just waiting for such a splendid analysis! XD

And I can´t find anything to disapprove of,
because I didn´t study this issue enough,
but I at least have an opinion about it
(that was indeed confirmed!)! ^_^

@Llama:
When it doesn´t harm anyone, then why not just
changing it? If it´s not such a great issue as you described it to be.

It was also tradition that the mass was held in
Latin; they abolished this tradition at the council.
The church is able to change (for the better);
so why do they decide to disappoint so many
women who want to become priests?
Why is it that priests aren´t allowed to marry?
I regard these traditions as being
unhealthy traditions. +sadly+
I´d wish they´d open up a little.

[Primera Espada]

Guild, I'm not gonna go quote myself. If you forgot that I said that generalizations don't apply to everyone, there's always exceptions to the rule, I'm not about to go back reading in my posts to point it out to you.

Also, again, that link totally backed me up. Just because it very ignorantly assumes that "right brained people" is a phrase used for people who ONLY use the right side of their brain doesn't mean that the points it makes about left and right side being used for different things don't back me up.

Please reread my posts if you think I've been saying that women can only use one side of their brain, and men can only use another. There's no point in me arguing against you saying otherwise, when I've already said it's just a dominance issue, not a biological capability issue.

[explosions]

all genders are created equal that includes males and females

[Primera Espada]

o.O
Well, thanks.

I think we covered that they deserve equal rights and treatment and all, and are overall equal, but it's not like they're equal in every single way. Simple biology tells us that.

whenever people say "all ____ are created equal" it always reminds me of 2 things. One, the famous line, and Two, my ex girlfriend, who was born with a missing shoulder muscle, and wasn't able to breath at first when born. It put her at both a physical disadvantage as well as a mentally (she developed some rather negative... quirks). It ultimately is causing her to not be able to succeed on any close of a level as her brother, and even has problems when compared to her sister.

It makes me REALLY wish that whenever someone says "equal" they actually explain "equal in what way"

Equal in rights?
Equal in ability?
Equal in value?

Its very important.

[Marionette]

It makes me REALLY wish that whenever someone says "equal" they actually explain "equal in what way"

Equal in rights?
Equal in ability?
Equal in value?

Its very important.
Um...Yeah? Why shouldn't they be equal in rights and values? And -physical power, why aren't they equal in abilities? B/c our brains aren't made for anything but cooking and cleaning (sorry but I wouldn't call that rocket science)? And how many women do you think already have successful scientific/analytical careers (and that's with discriminations)? I think there's a bit too many expectations to your generalization.

And offense to your ex-girlfriend, but being female =/= having a disability!

[StrawberryLover]

:pWomen are superior to men:p

Well that's what has been drilled into me anyway by my History teacher ^^;

[silhouette]

To people who like to pass stereotypes:

I live in New Zealand where only about 10-15% of people have a religion, most of the people are atheists. The women to men ratio is about 6:1, the prime minister is a female, more than half of the ministers are females, 80% of my lecturers (PHD & Masters qualifications) are females. However, looking at the statistics from Ministry of Justice (http://www.preventingviolence.org.nz/index.php?section=28):
# 1 in 3 NZ women experience physical and/or sexual abuse at the hands of a partner throughout their lifetime. (Fanslow and Robinson, 2004)
# A woman is killed by her (ex)partner every 2 ½ weeks

And the same pattern goes in Europe where religion has little or no influence on society. About 25% of all pregnant women get battered, a woman is being raped every few minutes and a lot more ugly criminal activities against women. The stats in the US are very similar to Europe.

The cases of women abuse in the Asia, Africa, Middle East and Latin America aren't worse than those in the so called industrialized/ modern countries knowing that women there also have the right to education, owning property, and all other civil and human rights and they had these rights for along long time whether you like it or not.

I mentioned all of the above to make a couple of points:

1- Try getting info from sources besides your local TV station and your local newspaper,and for God's sake try leaving your home town and meeting people from other cultures before passing a huge load of rubbish stereotype.

2- Women abuse everywhere is a freakin huge problem. I blame it on the lack of any type of moral system in the modern society in the first place and on governments and people for overlooking or not doing shit about it in the 2nd place. So please before posting to bash specific cultures, religions or countries think what individuals can do to solve this problem because this should...no it must be what we-as individuals- focus on.

[Primera Espada]

wow, Marionette, reread my post.

Seriously.

You missed half of it.

And sillhouette, though you make really nice points... what does that have to do with our discussion?

[silhouette]

Your discussion turned into analysis of the reason behind inequality. It was blamed on religion and on certain cultures. I had to mention the facts above about places where religion is absent and society is thought to be O' so civilized to answer those who don't even know about what happens in their own regions and are thoughtlessly repeating what's on their TV station and newspaper...it's sad that even in this age of advanced communication people are still absent about the whole truth!!!! I also wanted point out that the problem of women abuse is much larger than inequality. Anyway, I said what I had to say and point was made.

[Primera Espada]

spousal abuse isn't about inequality though o.O

I mean, we're talking things like voting rights, equal opportunity workforce, etc.

Spousal abuse is a completely different issue.

[Cloud_17]

The women are only slaves:)!!(I'm kidding)I think that there must be equality between men and women cause in my opinion both of them have advantages and disadvantages(and they feel complete when they have their soulmates)Just like me.. i have my girlfriend of my dreams!!!!(2 years now)

[♠ Saint ♠]

You notice something? I dunno if they do this in every school, but in my school experience, girls had to do far less push-ups, pull-ups, had longer allowed max times for the mile, etc, etc. when Physical Education was the topic. Same thing in ROTC. It's hard to expect equality when what is asked of you is dependent on your gender.

[Shadoblak]

You also get couches in your bathrooms >_<

Although a couch in the boy's bathroom would be sick.....Ew..

Anyway, growing up with mainly my mom and sister I developed a respect for strong women. Women and men are equal, its silly to think otherwise. its like when you first played through Metroid, thinking the *** kicking main character Samus was a manly man with a big gun and smooth moves...Only to beat the game and realize she was a girl

Watch the swears please.

- FH

[HighSeraphShin]

I would say yeaah because if both genders are needed to reproduce a child, then why would we treat one worse, I mean this by, what if women regain a stereotype of men and vice versa, saying that they dont need men/women meaning that they wont be able to have children, thus ending the whole worlds being of humans. I heard things that women are weak and men are strong, I am confused by this whole stereotype, because im a guy, but im weak as all hell, i have no muscle, no fat, low bone mass, atleast 4 disceases regarding my weight, and I cant even do anything thats aggresive with my arms, (I can knee people in the stomach, but that only works for fattys coughgilgameshcough) I tried punching someone in the face, it only hurt my hand and made it bleed.....a lot....so the men are stronger thing just confuses me oh so very much,

I say that they are all equal, everyone should be allowed to vote, and also should always the same jobs and paid the same amount.

There is only one difference between genders....woman have larger waists, men have larger shoulders, nothing else if yo exclude internal and external details (such as the uterus or prostate or all of that happy happy joy joy)

[Shadoblak]

I would say yeaah because if both genders are needed to reproduce a child, then why would we treat one worse, I mean this by, what if women regain a stereotype of men and vice versa, saying that they dont need men/women meaning that they wont be able to have children, thus ending the whole worlds being of humans. I heard things that women are weak and men are strong, I am confused by this whole stereotype, because im a guy, but im weak as all hell, i have no muscle, no fat, low bone mass, atleast 4 disceases regarding my weight, and I cant even do anything thats aggresive with my arms, (I can knee people in the stomach, but that only works for fattys coughgilgameshcough) I tried punching someone in the face, it only hurt my hand and made it bleed.....a lot....so the men are stronger thing just confuses me oh so very much,

I say that they are all equal, everyone should be allowed to vote, and also should always the same jobs and paid the same amount.

There is only one difference between genders....woman have larger waists, men have larger shoulders, nothing else if yo exclude internal and external details (such as the uterus or prostate or all of that happy happy joy joy)

YEah my girlfriend is 5'2'' and about 109 pounds but shes a brown belt with a pair of sai and she could kick MY ***.........I'm 6'2'' about 235 btw :p

[pan]

I think it's pretty much agreed that men and women should be entitled to equal rights and treatment.

I find it useless to argue whether men or women are equal in their talents and abilties. It comes down to the individual anyway, regardless of gender.

[BLUESMILE]

Quote:
OOOhhh I am on of those people who believe men are from Mars women from Venus . BUT men and women are born and created equal . Superior gender is a myth from dark ages and why ? Muscle is replaced by Machines

Intellectually men and women were always equal . There were matriarchic societies from the dawn of civilization the only difference was physical strength . But now machines have taken over labor. So now there is no excuse to say the genders are unequal .


Quote:
People should be judged on their merit and accompalishment alone regardless of gender race and orientation

ie Men and Women are equal . Standard for judging a person should be accompalsihments



Well , what else should I say more ? Maybe that's why I don't like showing my gender in any forums . Cause some guys having androcentric thoughts would advise you : Hey , girl , you can't talk this or you can't talk that with men . Just because you are a woman . I was so fed up with those .

[Lady Scaper]

I love showing my gender in forums. If people have a problem with it (and they have), it's their problem not mine. Sometimes I have like no geek cred because I am a girl. Then I start proving my point with links and stuff. Then the guys usually shut up.

[BLUESMILE]

I love showing my gender in forums. If people have a problem with it (and they have), it's their problem not mine. Sometimes I have like no geek cred because I am a girl. Then I start proving my point with links and stuff. Then the guys usually shut up.

Yes , all of us can freely express our own opinions , even show our achievements , but sometimes the masculist shut up just for the thought they are thinking that it is not worth discussing the issue with you women . Be mum , sometime doesn't mean they accept yours , though the woman has been more excellent than those guys .
I often hear that some guys saying : women can't talk politics , economy , policies . women just need to talk cosmetic , figure , how to raise kids . If those guys can't change their conservative conception about women , women can't change their condition in the world . As far as I know , some women more and more have got an idea that they are weak naturally , they should be helped by man ! For me , I 'd rather be an Alpha girl ! :)

[Zelos]

I find it useless to argue whether men or women are equal in their talents and abilties. It comes down to the individual anyway, regardless of gender.

yes, thats true, but i think most of the time, people forget about the individual level.

i never have my gender show on forums. i dont because i dont think it matters.

[Agmaster]

Edit part two: I always pay for my own lunch.
Want to pay for my lunch?

Sigh, since you force me to actually respond to the topic and not people (no fun at all.), I strive to find women as capable as I. Aside from my mother, they are few and far between. By few and far between, I mean I've met one, and she's too emo to be great.

Despite my repeated searchings for such a person, women just lack a little something to make me not have a negative opinion of them initially (first impressions and all that.)

They lack logic, perhaps I have met the wrong ones, but every argument, discussion, or action is tinted with emotional baggage from somewhere. Discussing just about anything personal with them is a headache waiting to happen, and trying to discuss general topics in person leads me to Vegeta-veining in my forehead.

I once believed women were all just screwing with people, and it was an act that played on guy's latent sense of chivalry/pity to ensure that women would always 'win' discussions. After all, that is what my parent did. She would say do something, if that didn't work implore you to obey her, that didn't work explain why obeying her worked best, and if that didn't work she made you do it anyways. I digress...after observing the 'fairer' sex for quite some time I came to the conclusion that it wasn't an act. Let me repeat...this is not an act.

This blew me away. There is stupid, and there is stupid. Hate me all you want for it, but look at it objectively (even the females here), how convoluted are discussions with women and girls? Now, that stands to go against my point doesn't it...until you realize WHY they are so convoluted, because they don't know how to communicate what they want in the conversation. I've had....something akin to girlfriends in the past and often I would sit, watch her and ask 'what are you thinking.' I am amazed when I recieve an answer that is not rambling monologue that spans 5 topics, followed by my repeating of the question and her blank stare.

Thus, I believe men to be smarter logically women intuitively. I just happen to lack patience with such lackings of logic.

Perhaps women are better defensively....after all they are more flexible, often faster, and have a body better designed to soak punishment in it's 'societally ideal' form. That explains valkeryies and amazons. AND why women in medevial fiction never wear full armor. Heh, learn something new everyday.

Oh yeah...*fuse*

[Llama]

I guess this would also go here.
I think it's because some of the feminists believe not being able to become a priest is discrimination, when it's not.

I believe this explains it all: http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/WHYWOMEN.TXT

And I don't get why women want to be equal in everything that a man does when it's impossible. Same goes for the guys.

There's a reason why only beautiful young women who are well endowed are hired for hooters and men are not. The main reason, women have breasts and men don't.

[Guildenstern]

I guess this would also go here.


And I don't get why women want to be equal in everything that a man does when it's impossible. Same goes for the guys.

There's a reason why only beautiful young women who are well endowed are hired for hooters and men are not. The main reason, women have breasts and men don't.

ZOMG FEMINISTS nooooooooooooooooooooo

Yeah, and there's a reason girls aren't hired to work at Chippendales or dance in cages at the gay bar. Because women don't have dicks.

What do my hooters have to do with my brain? My brain is where I'm equal to you, and I want to be treated with the distinction that comes along with it. I feel the same as a man, I think the same, my brain is equal to a man's. This is where I want recognition.

Trying to argue that 'Men and women are inherently unequal' makes about as much sense as saying 'Men and short men are inherently unequal 'cause taller men can reach the top shelf and carry heavier objects". I don't really give a dillyfuck whether you can reach that can of peaches or not. :eek: Shocking, I know.

Besides, I'm freaking six feet tall, I can open my own jars and get things off the top shelf my own damn self. D:

[Llama]

And you should get recognition for your brain. All women should. But sadly our world is still sexist somewhat I believe. And although women can do stuff themselves these day I still think it's cool when men are chilvarious.

[Guildenstern]

Want to pay for my lunch?

Sigh, since you force me to actually respond to the topic and not people (no fun at all.), I strive to find women as capable as I. Aside from my mother, they are few and far between. By few and far between, I mean I've met one, and she's too emo to be great.

Despite my repeated searchings for such a person, women just lack a little something to make me not have a negative opinion of them initially (first impressions and all that.)

They lack logic, perhaps I have met the wrong ones, but every argument, discussion, or action is tinted with emotional baggage from somewhere. Discussing just about anything personal with them is a headache waiting to happen, and trying to discuss general topics in person leads me to Vegeta-veining in my forehead.

I once believed women were all just screwing with people, and it was an act that played on guy's latent sense of chivalry/pity to ensure that women would always 'win' discussions. After all, that is what my parent did. She would say do something, if that didn't work implore you to obey her, that didn't work explain why obeying her worked best, and if that didn't work she made you do it anyways. I digress...after observing the 'fairer' sex for quite some time I came to the conclusion that it wasn't an act. Let me repeat...this is not an act.

This blew me away. There is stupid, and there is stupid. Hate me all you want for it, but look at it objectively (even the females here), how convoluted are discussions with women and girls? Now, that stands to go against my point doesn't it...until you realize WHY they are so convoluted, because they don't know how to communicate what they want in the conversation. I've had....something akin to girlfriends in the past and often I would sit, watch her and ask 'what are you thinking.' I am amazed when I recieve an answer that is not rambling monologue that spans 5 topics, followed by my repeating of the question and her blank stare.

Thus, I believe men to be smarter logically women intuitively. I just happen to lack patience with such lackings of logic.

Perhaps women are better defensively....after all they are more flexible, often faster, and have a body better designed to soak punishment in it's 'societally ideal' form. That explains valkeryies and amazons. AND why women in medevial fiction never wear full armor. Heh, learn something new everyday.

Oh yeah...*fuse*

Ag-chan, you're fixing for a paddling. :3

And yeah, I'll buy you lunch -and- I'll hold the door open for you when we go into the restaurant. I'll even let you order the steak platter. I'll make loving, manly conversation to you about such diverse subjects such as aeronautics, religious history, translation issues, library science, Dante Aligheri and botany while never referring once to you for an opinion about the size of my ass.

Afterward, I'll whisk you away in my fine luxury automobile replete with air conditioned comfort to my riverside apartment, where we will peruse nothing but the finest in modern and ancient literature, discussing it in a suave and testosterone-laden linear fashion while sipping snifters of brandy and watching the sun set in a burning fiery cacophony of colors.

And then once we've finished making clear to each other that we are in fact both the most gentlemanly, erudite and clearly rational beings on the planet, we'll adjourn to my slightly feminine and yet totally sane and elegantly tasteful boudoir to sex all hot Florida night. No fantasy of yours will go unanswered by me. I will totally pretend to be General Erwin Rommel and you can be George S. Patton, and you can pretend to defeat my tank batallion with your mighty Howitzer whilst shouting 'Rommel, you magnificent bastard!". You have no idea how manly and totally sane our intense lovemaking would be.

Of course then I would not call you nor ring your answerphone to see if you're home 20 times each day but instead would wait a manful period of waiting for no less than 2 weeks before calling you again and asking you if you'd like to go with me to the Natural History Museum lecture on caste systems in India.

You have no concept of how gentlemanly and untinged with 'feminine craziness' our passionate love could be. Call me, sugar butt. <3

[Marionette]

I guess this would also go here.


And I don't get why women want to be equal in everything that a man does when it's impossible. Same goes for the guys.

There's a reason why only beautiful young women who are well endowed are hired for hooters and men are not. The main reason, women have breasts and men don't.
Waitress at Hooters or CEO? Hum, tough choice :D :D :D I guess we are even than.
And you should get recognition for your brain. All women should. But sadly our world is still sexist somewhat I believe. And although women can do stuff themselves these day I still think it's cool when men are chilvarious.
Ah, define "chivalrous". And there's kind no point of being chivalrous if there's no women that wants you be chivalrous to (aka. if your ideas of chivalry doesn't fit women's idea of chivalry - or if most women you meet don't care for this quality).

@Guild: seriously, you, me, babies, now!

[Llama]

Chivalrous as in considerate and courteous to women. Opening doors, etc.

Well I want an independent woman but I also want to be chivalrous. I hope I won't run into any problems with that.

[Marionette]

Hope you won't :) And hopefully your girlfriend would be considerate and courteous to you too...whether she should to be or not.

[Who]

I'm a believer in individualism. Gender shouldn't matter in the least. I treat everyone the way I treat them because of the way I am, not because of their gender or whatever.

[Ryuuko]

I treat girls and guys equally, ill hold a door for a guy as well as a girl. Ive had a lot of guys hold doors for me because my hands were full, that makes me feel good that theres still some nice people in the world.
I've noticed though that theres still places that pay women less then men, even if they are doing the same job.
And hooters is pitiful, who actually has that little self respect?

[Vizard_King]

Yes, There is equality. I treat every Woman in my life with the same respect I show to Guys.
Same goes for Anime Ladies. Most of them can kick more ass than the guys.
And Women in both real life and Anime can be scary. (*Cough* Integra Hellsing *Cough*)
And Why does a Woman's slap hurt more than a Man's Punch?

[Agmaster]

Simple mechanics of punches versus slaps. Slaps have a more cracking effect and hit a larger area. Also they have a impact, not a push through like punches. A punch needs to hit something hard to be effective, thus why you can roll with them.

[cool_inuyasha_g]

The way I see it were all humans. When you think about the only difference between a male and female are there bodies. Males can be as soft as females and females can be as stubborn as males (no offence to either side just using the sterotype). Its just that those qualities are more reconised in the certain gender and thus male and females have been catogarized as such. As far as I know the brain for males and females are exactly the same and since the brain controls just about everything we do that makes us just about the same. The way a male or female uses their brain is up to them and so yes, they should be treated as equals because there really is no difference when you break it down.

[Sora Chan]

I think women and men should have equal rights in terms of voting and jobs. I believe in going Dutch, but if the guy wants to pay, I think it's sweet. Same thing with opening doors, you should open doors for whoever needs you to open it (like Ryuuko said), but I do think its sweet for a guy to hold the door. I do not believe in a guy punching/ slapping a girl, (pushing playfully is ok), but I'm fine with girls doing it playfully. Husband beaters are as bad as wife beaters in my eyes. So I am down for equality, though I do have certain double standards.

[speedphantom]

I agree with both sides paying for themselves, its fair but perhaps once in a while either side could treat the other side ^^. I always try to open doors for girls, if girls open a door for me I feel I'm in the wrong somehow. I suppose there's no reason why girls can't open doors. XD

[Sora Chan]

Opening doors and walking through them should be fine if you say thank you. I don't know, maybe I am weird, but I don't like when guys pay for my lunch, or any of my food. It makes me feel like I owe them. I do make my guy friends hold my other friends books though, and luckily I know sweet guys who would at least offer to hold my stuff.

[speedphantom]

I'm pretty sure I say thank you all the time, I hope x3! I suppose if the guy insists on paying its up to him but I guess he shouldn't feel forced to. Some girls might expect guys to but then they'd be spoilt little princesses:p

[Bleu]

Im all for equality.

Whether today there is a total equality, i dont think so. I still think we have a while to go until there is full equality, but we as the world are doing fairly well, at least in the "civilized" countries. by cizilized, i mean countries like england and the US, france, ect.. but..we still have places like the middle east where women have to wear a viel over their face and their husbands control them. we have helped them though, women and girls are finally recieving education..but it is a religious issue so its very touchy.

im a firm believer in men being chivalrous. xD Put your coat down for me to walk on.. or your grandmother..[/endawfuljoke] and ill be happy. i kind of like how some men are very seet torwards women and place them first, and dare i say as they should.. we are the bringers of life, and we deserve all the respect.. as well as the men, who give the juice to us xD

[speedphantom]

You can't just go and put your "superior" Western values above everyone else such as the Middle East. Sure their women aren't treated the same as here but perhaps that would be called culture. I'm sure half the world would hate you for calling them uncivilised just they have a different culture. Its a perspective, a narrow Western perspective which makes you think that since you were brought up with this culture.

There's no one who can absolutely say that their culture is better. Its different and just because in your culture, women have more rights or what not doesn't mean its better. It depends on your paradigm.

What do you know about the Middle East apart from what you see on tv? If the women in those countries dislike how they're treated and their roles then perhaps its bad but you should go ask them what they think about it before making such a sweeping statement.

Back on topic, I personally believe in being a gentleman, but its being phased out slowly.

[Bleu]

I wasnt.. saying that we should change their culture, because its a religious issue, its very touchy. Yet, i guess there does have to be a limit on what we can allow religions to get away with.. like murder, or rape. And i guess that is just a moral issue, rather than a religious. I do not think we should change their culture, but women learning and working can help their economy, too. The women grew up knowing their position in the world, and have accepted it. its what their ancestors hadto go through, and what they did too.. yet, that doesnt mean that every woman is happy in their situation. National Geographic had a famous article about this but i forgot what it was called.

For example though, have you heard the story about the woman who met a male online and wanted to meet him? When they finally met, she was gang raped by that man and his friends. Not only that, but she was tried in court and was sentenced to recieve many lashes for adultry.

Personally, if i tried putting myself in that womans shoes, and take her faith into consideration.. i would be VERY angry.

[speedphantom]

The economy isn't the number one priority to absolutely everyone in this world. Was a young American girl who went to the Middle East wasn't it or is it a different case? You can't say one case means that all men in the Middle East rape all women.

You can't put yourself in someone from the Middle Easts' shoes until you go there for yourself. Its just not possible to think like them or understand what its like unless you see it for yourself. If its religious issue and its very touchy then why should these women suddenly change overnight because the trend for the world is to become more focused on the economy. Westernisation isn't for every country and certainly not for the Middle East right now.

If the women in the Middle East are happy then it should be left that way, but if they can genuinly say they are unhappy then perhaps a change is needed but its up to them to judge, not foreigners.

[Bleu]

Ehhh.. no im not saying that all men rape women at all.. no no. :( i'm just showing how this woman got raped, and in the end she was the one to be punished. It was a middle east woman, btw.

I have been to the middle east before, though only for a few hours, when i was on a trip to south america like 10 years ago we stopped in a city for a while, i thought that it was very pretty where we were.. and yea.. -goes back on topic-

some women in the middle east could be scared though, because what would happen if they do speak out? They could possibly be put in jail for not speaking without permission.Even if they arent ready for westernization, that doesnt mean that there could be something wrong with their government system, and how things are dealt. For example, many countries do not have their own armies... Now if you have a country, the most important thing to have is an army.. it defends your country.

[speedphantom]

Well those are the laws they live with but yes it may be sexist but thats their culture, also Western culture too. Both are sexist.

Actually Costa Rica is the only country not to have its own armed forces. It sounds like you expect them to become Westernised, meaning democracy and capitalism but thats not their culture so its not something which will easily fit.

I think perhaps the American government believes that having an army is the most important thing but I think that can't seriously believe that the army is the most important thing for a country. Not perhaps the wellbeing of their people? Even the economy....

Back on topic

Its just a universal culture that men have taken advantage of women since they're physically stronger and gender roles have been assigned from way back. The Western world is moving in that direction but its an alien concept to those who aren't familiar with it.

[Unicorn]

For example though, have you heard the story about the woman who met a male online and wanted to meet him? When they finally met, she was gang raped by that man and his friends. Not only that, but she was tried in court and was sentenced to recieve many lashes for adultry.

Personally, if i tried putting myself in that womans shoes, and take her faith into consideration.. i would be VERY angry.

The version of the story that I heard was:

Woman is about to marry an assigned fiance. She wants some photos taken with another guy (friend? boyfriend?) returned so as not to endanger her future marriage. Guy friend agrees but insists they meet alone.

Woman agrees. They meet alone, and is discovered by a group of men. Both guy friend and woman are raped. Rapists are sentenced to a beating (probably for raping another guy) and woman is sentenced to a beating (for being out unescorted by a male relative). Not sure what the guy friend received.

From a non-Muslim's POV, I completely agree that it is very unfair that the woman suffered, only to be sentenced to a beating.

Saudi Arabia is still very much a patriarchal society, with deep-set Islamic laws. It is possibly (guessing here) how the group of men 'punished' the couple for committing the sin of 'being seen together'.

If you do want to discuss 'Western vs Islam' religions, then what do you think about Catholic priests abusing their status, raping young boys secretly and more importantly, getting away with it even now?

....

back on topic. I believe in gender equality. Whilst I agree that certain genders do certain jobs better (eg. males doing heavy lifting work vs females doing quality control checks), I do like to be accepted on equal terms.

Being able to earn a similar salary, be given similar promotions and opportunities and respect; all this ensures I have independence. I do not have to rely on others (eg. husbands) to make a living in this cruel world. I don't even require guys to hold doors open, pull out chairs, carry bags and order food for me etc etc. It's nice, yes, especially with heavy grocery bags full of potatoes, rice and laundry powder. But on some level, I still feel awkward and useless. (to summarize: I'm not a spoilt little princess).

I feel sad that a % of victims of domestic violence still return to their violent partner for various reasons (eg. a misplaced sense of love? dependence?).

[Thantos-Espada]

each person is their own person, there for people shouldnt be limmited by rules about their sex.

its obviouse women and man are equal in lots of ways,

women can acheive the same physical peek as men, body builders, athletes...


tbh i think a girl the same strength and build as me could do every thing i can do...


so i think there should be equal rights...


except women and men differ in a few areas...

i.e.

women look good in dresses... men kinda... dont

only real difference...

[Ninira]

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this, but I would like to say that it isn't fair that girls are 'allowed' to have many masculine interests, but it seems to be strongly discouraged for guys to have feminine interests. Boy are told they shouldn't play with dolls, but no one cares if a girl plays with trucks.

That seems to instill a sort of fear in guys of being called 'girly' because it seems that parent-figures make it sound like it's a terrible thing to be anything but manly. Seems like a double standard to me...

[Bleu]

Well im catholic -kinda- , and no preist of mine ever mishandeled a young boy. Those people are called sex offenders..not preists. Their actions are based on their own and they have nothing to do with the catholic church. They commited a disguesting crime and should be punished, and not many of them do it.. but there are like what, millions of catholic priests? its not unbelievable that one would be a bad egg.. you would hear about it because they hold power in society and people place their trust in them. But, you dont hear of all of the other boys being molested by adults because its illegal to post that kinof thing in the media for the sake of the child.. and it also happens very often.

sorry got a little carried away xD

hmm.. i always grew up thinking pink was for girls blue was for boys. today blue is my favorite color xD with items like dolls and stuff, if my son asked for one i'd give him it, just lke if my daughter did. It's just really a toy, playing daddy wont hurt him, in fact it could help him to be a great man later in life ^-^ I've seen alot of little kids with this problem, and i just think its because men have a secre rulebook of manliness =o =o and anything that goes against that rulebook is taboo XD

I think as females we have went a really long way, and the interests that are deemed male only are really few. I don't think its right, but things are changing too. Girls can be on wrestling teams now in alot of schools which i notice are a mix, football teams whic are usually one gender-only, tennis, and others. But i dont like how baseball has an alternative for girls "softball". the ball is huge x-x and it hurts xDI have never seen a girls american football team though.. but i think that women should be pressingto have these teams too, for fairness.. really girls would look better running in spandex then those amercanfootball players. XD

[speedphantom]

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this, but I would like to say that it isn't fair that girls are 'allowed' to have many masculine interests, but it seems to be strongly discouraged for guys to have feminine interests. Boy are told they shouldn't play with dolls, but no one cares if a girl plays with trucks.

That seems to instill a sort of fear in guys of being called 'girly' because it seems that parent-figures make it sound like it's a terrible thing to be anything but manly. Seems like a double standard to me...Yes! I've always thought that was unfair:p

Girls can wear guys clothes but guys can't wear girls clothes!:yell

Well not like I want to but you know:pshould have the option should guys ever want to XD. Guys are like that, quick to jump on "girliness" but only in the Western world of course haha:p. In Asia, mainly Chinese, Korean and Japanese, they all dress and appear more feminine than other people. Like the Japanese girly pop/rock singers. I remember seeing on youtube there was this gameshow where they got guys to dress up as girls and you really couldn't tell them apart......scary:crazy

Being brought up in Australia which is really obsessed with men being macho and what not, I'm probably more partial to that side but I do have plushies and posters and like chibi cute stuff:p.

Just an example of Australian men's obsession with manliness, check out this ad for the Solo soft drink.

http://www.mancans.com.au/dont_say_we_didnt_warn.html?var=9

[Marionette]

I still think we have a while to go until there is full equality, but we as the world are doing fairly well, at least in the "civilized" countries. by cizilized, i mean countries like england and the US, france, ect.. but..we still have places like the middle east where women have to wear a viel over their face and their husbands control them. we have helped them though, women and girls are finally recieving education..but it is a religious issue so its very touchy.
Even if they arent ready for westernization, that doesnt mean that there could be something wrong with their government system, and how things are dealt. For example, many countries do not have their own armies... Now if you have a country, the most important thing to have is an army.. it defends your country.
Wow, some people really haven't evolved much from the 1800s; no wonder there's still no peace for the world. I'm all for working to change women's situations all over the world, but with out disrespecting other cultures by thinking that your culture is better than theirs, which it isn’t. And do you mean to say that civilization = westernization?

The Bible isn't kind to women either; it doesn't make Christianity an "uncivilized" religion to me. It all depend on how people use the religion, it's not the religion. America had slavery when many other countries didn't, 50 years from now women taking their husbands' names might be considered offensive, does that make "countries like england and the US, france, ect.." uncivilized as well?
I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this, but I would like to say that it isn't fair that girls are 'allowed' to have many masculine interests, but it seems to be strongly discouraged for guys to have feminine interests. Boy are told they shouldn't play with dolls, but no one cares if a girl plays with trucks.

That seems to instill a sort of fear in guys of being called 'girly' because it seems that parent-figures make it sound like it's a terrible thing to be anything but manly. Seems like a double standard to me...
I know! And than we straight girls gets a much higher chance of ending up with immature, insensitive, boring dumb***** who are dressed by their moms (who have bad tastes). So not fair.

[Bleu]

Wow, some people really haven't evolved much from the 1800s; no wonder there's still no peace for the world. I'm all for working to change women's situations all over the world, but with out disrespecting other cultures by thinking that your culture is better than theirs are, which it isn’t. And do you mean to say that civilization = westernization?

The Bible isn't kind to women either; it doesn't make Christianity an "uncivilized" religion to me. It all depend on how people use the religion, it's not the religion. America had slavery when many other countries didn't, 50 years from now women taking their husbands' names might be considered offensive, does that make "countries like england and the US, france, ect.." uncivilized as well?



I cant help but feel im being attacked here and its bothering me since im trying to be nice and gentle with my approach, and im not trying to offend anyone. =P...
I never said that my culture is better then anyone elses.. and no, i dont mean to say that "civilization" is westernization. English isnt my first language, i dont know many other words to use to say what i wanted to say i used "civilized" in quotes for a reason to emphasize that its not to be interpereted literally, i guess what i was trying to say by "civilized" and now i should change my words to be more clear, is that alot of things arent in order in other countries, and that in alot of european countries and the us for example, they have order and stable law while alot of other countries do not. This is not related to religious views ect.

Yea the bible isnt kind to women, i dont believe in the bible anyways. I NEVER said that other religions were uncizilized either, nor did i want to imply that. Women taking their husbands names offensive? i dont see how. It is your choice if you want to change your last name, but alot of people do it because its tradition and it shows that two people are married.

Its a moral issue, not a religious or political.. think deep down and answer this:

Do you honestly want women to have to obey a mans orders all of the time? to have to wear a viel over her face, and be punished if shes even seen with another man.. While, a man can walk around freely, and cheat on his wife as much as he likes and she cant do anything about it?

oh and id like to apologize if anyone has taken any offence to my views, my opinions are very different then some people.. but hey thats individulism right? [= and i do have the deepest respect for other cultures.

[speedphantom]

Well from the Western point of view, the answer would be no but thats just being narrow minded if you only think about it from that perspective. The fact is its not like that and it won't change unless they want it to.

Its not a moral view, its a cultural view, culture = religion and politics. Its not good from our perspective because we live in Western countries and it goes against our culture. It IS their culture though. You can only judge one culture with another culture. This is simply lack of understanding of other people's culture.

Some fundamentalist Muslim communities would be offended by women reveal their skin, so does that mean that there's something wrong with Western countries?

Here's another thing, how come it was only a few years ago that a woman was allowed to be a Catholic priest? Religious issue?

Deepest respect for them but not for their reasons to wear veils and their gender roles.

America isn't stable and their laws well, every country has them but lots don't seem to follow them with 11000 murders a year but thats another issue.

[Unicorn]

I'd like to thank everyone here for keeping discussion nice and calm. Will be watching over this to ensure nothing gets out of hand (aka. flamey or off-topic).



From what I heard, Islam is structured to protect their womenfolk and ensure they will be cared for throughout their lives. Some fundamentalists interpret it such that they make laws ordering Muslim men to have beards beyond a certain length, and women to cover up from head to toe + escorted around by male family members.

All religions have really good structure. Its the fundamentalists who should be watched with concern.

Alright. Please may I request more discussion about cultures and less talking about actual religions unless related? :D

...

A few years ago, I wrote an essay analyzing children's fairytales. Rapunzel, Snow White, Cinderella, etc. These fairytales originated as a method of teaching children the culturally-correct way of behaving in society. They were also told with much more violence than the Disney-esque books we buy today.

Summary of Cinderella:
Good girls should keep quiet, be humble and obedient, and do all the housework. These good girls are rewarded with fortunate marriages. Bad girls are disobedient, shirk housework and spend the family fortune. They will be punished with horrible painful futures. (One of the stepsisters cut off her big toe, the other had to dance in red-hot slippers). Men should marry good obedient girls who will quietly do all the housework, even when they're princesses.

I'm happy to provide a brief breakdown of a couple more stories if anyone wants to hear me drone on.

If anyone would like to share a fairytale from their culture, it would be most welcome!

[fly]

I'm all for religion and its exclusion in this debate. It warrants its own debate, so why not?

However, i'm a little skeptical on how cultural judging will play off as a better yardstick in measuring a person's validity in his/her view upon this issue on gender equality. After all, like speedphantom had pointed out:

culture = religion and politics

We are in a globalized world; perhaps in some ways or another, there are still crude gender-differentiating cultures being practiced; however, who are we to judge a culture? Perhaps you may not like this culture and the way it is being imposed; however, there is no such thing as bad/good culture. Culture is a practice; and labeling a practice as good/bad is IMO a violation of the sovereignty of that culture itself. It would perhaps be more suitable to view cultures in manners to which it is relevant or not. (this is something i posted elsewhere, i'm just too lazy to reword it). As it had been said, cultural practices or norms that are accepted in a society will have necessary connections to the religion which the society conforms to. As such, the blurred line between culture and religion even though at times may seemed distinguishable, mutual exclusion is just more or less something close to impossibility. Even isolated tribes had a religion - animalism.

Let's talk a bit of culture here; and i'll go to my stand, promise.

Once upon a time; about a few centuries ago, there's a practice of foot-binding (i know you asked for fairy tales, Unicorn...but then again, i'm a Chinese, and we are more renowned for tales that incorporate filial piety; and this is the only thing i can think of now, so, i'll just use this as an example) for girls within the nobility or considerable wealth. Just so that the girls may exude more attractiveness or feminine allure as they walked. While i do find this extremely irrelevant because it is an act of confinement toward the roles the female in the society; however it does not mean that it had meant ill. Wanting a girl to look pretty certainly isnt something oppresive - it is the implication of gender marginalization that served worse.

Back to what you've said about Cinderella. Certainly, if viewed with lesser degree of discrimination it would have meant something else. A lesson to all children of which virtues valued and which is not. A ancient preaching of morality; but then again, as times changed, so do perceptions on fairy tales. Credit to feminist activities to have brought up such lights into a well-known tale; and it may had served a noble purpose. It had educated the people that there's nothing absolute in life; and as such this is also what we can say may apply into this issue of gender equality.

I would say that gender equality will never prevail; at least when there is already discrepancies in gender anatomy. Girls may be able to do what guys could and vice versa - but the fact that they so not have the similar physical morphology will remain a bugger of an issue in this.

However, that do not automatically eliminate the possibility of gender integrity - in which the concept is the same as racial integrity. Something which will sprout from mutual comprehension that differences do exist in both genders and that differences are to be respected and not used as a tool for marginalization.

*I hope i continued the coherence in this thread and had contributed something.

[Marionette]

I cant help but feel im being attacked here and its bothering me since im trying to be nice and gentle with my approach, and im not trying to offend anyone. =P...
I never said that my culture is better then anyone elses.. and no, i dont mean to say that "civilization" is westernization. English isnt my first language, i dont know many other words to use to say what i wanted to say i used "civilized" in quotes for a reason to emphasize that its not to be interpereted literally, i guess what i was trying to say by "civilized" and now i should change my words to be more clear, is that alot of things arent in order in other countries, and that in alot of european countries and the us for example, they have order and stable law while alot of other countries do not. This is not related to religious views ect.

Yea the bible isnt kind to women, i dont believe in the bible anyways. I NEVER said that other religions were uncizilized either, nor did i want to imply that. Women taking their husbands names offensive? i dont see how. It is your choice if you want to change your last name, but alot of people do it because its tradition and it shows that two people are married.

Its a moral issue, not a religious or political.. think deep down and answer this:

Do you honestly want women to have to obey a mans orders all of the time? to have to wear a viel over her face, and be punished if shes even seen with another man.. While, a man can walk around freely, and cheat on his wife as much as he likes and she cant do anything about it?

oh and id like to apologize if anyone has taken any offence to my views, my opinions are very different then some people.. but hey thats individulism right? [= and i do have the deepest respect for other cultures.
I'm sorry about your English. But people can only read what you wrote, and what you wrote implies that culture not like England, France or the US is not civilized (or at least certain cultures are not as civilized). And I'm sorry if you feel attacked, because I also had to stop myself from labeling you a lot of things, because those are some pretty serious accusations and I don't want to throw them around. I know I still reacted strongly, but that's what people do when they feel offended.

About the taking the name thing, it was an example to show how an outsider of western culture would view it, not how you or I would view such a practice. My point was that even if someone thinks certain things in the western culture is backward and wrong, regardless of whether he/she is right or wrong, he/she does not have the right to think that this culture is less civilized than his/hers, nor would they have any say in how things should be in the west. If you still don't know what I'm saying, than again I'm sorry for your English and for mine, because it isn't my first language either.

So no, I don't agree with how certain Middle Eastern countries treat women, which I thought would be obvious. But I don't think that I have the right to tell them what to do, however I might disagree with them.
A few years ago, I wrote an essay analyzing children's fairytales. Rapunzel, Snow White, Cinderella, etc. These fairytales originated as a method of teaching children the culturally-correct way of behaving in society. They were also told with much more violence than the Disney-esque books we buy today.

Summary of Cinderella:
Good girls should keep quiet, be humble and obedient, and do all the housework. These good girls are rewarded with fortunate marriages. Bad girls are disobedient, shirk housework and spend the family fortune. They will be punished with horrible painful futures. (One of the stepsisters cut off her big toe, the other had to dance in red-hot slippers). Men should marry good obedient girls who will quietly do all the housework, even when they're princesses.

I'm happy to provide a brief breakdown of a couple more stories if anyone wants to hear me drone on.

If anyone would like to share a fairytale from their culture, it would be most welcome!
I think that this is an awesome topic to discuss! And like what fly_melody said that such tales are interrupted differently in different times. I think it’s hilarious how the Disney movies (which I love) try to put a more modern spin on all their more recent works. Today, the story of Mulan is told to praise Mulan's bravery - in both fighting wars and breaking her gender role. But in ancient China she is definitely not praised for her feminism, or even for her valor, but for being a good daughter XD
I would say that gender equality will never prevail; at least when there is already discrepancies in gender anatomy. Girls may be able to do what guys could and vice versa - but the fact that they so not have the similar physical morphology will remain a bugger of an issue in this.

However, that do not automatically eliminate the possibility of gender integrity - in which the concept is the same as racial integrity. Something which will sprout from mutual comprehension that differences do exist in both genders and that differences are to be respected and not used as a tool for marginalization.

*I hope i continued the coherence in this thread and had contributed something.
I disagree. 1) I don't think physical difference, or anything else, would prevent the sexes from being equal. 2) That physical difference actually limits us very little, especially in today's world. Take the example of women in combat: maybe women are not as physically strong as men are in general, but what about those women who are? What about the women that passes the same test, and handles the same training as men? I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of women like that also. So why should all women be barred from combat?

[Ninira]

1) I don't think physical difference, or anything else, would prevent the sexes from being equal. 2) That physical difference actually limits us very little, especially in today's world. Take the example of women in combat: maybe women are not as physically strong as men are in general, but what about those women who are? What about the women that passes the same test, and handles the same training as men? I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of women like that also. So why should all women be barred from combat?

I agree. I think a lot of what actually limits people is gender roles and the supposed knowledge from those roles. There are differences in anatomy, but that can't really limit someone except the areas of reproduction. A lot of what men and women can and can't do comes a lot more from 'I don't THINK a woman could be a good soldier' than 'A woman is physically incapable of being a soldier'. Does that make any sense?

[Bleu]

I think women in the military is a very good topic to talk about =o

Though i dont support joining the military personally, i strongly agree with women taking roles and jobs in the military.

I think as females, now living in the 21st century, have definetly proven ourselves capable of doing ANYTHING that a man can do (except produce sperm xD... yet =o).. and if you think about it, men and women alike can produce children, yet the women just carries the child and thats the main difference [=

But in regards to the military, women would make fine soldiers and i think that the kiddy rule of "anything you can do i can do better" applies here xD Also, only a small percent of most miltaries are combat divisons. There are many many job that need to be done that dont have to include pulling a trigger, and both sexes can accomplish this. I think that a persons only argument against women in the military would have to be tradition. For the longest time men would fight, and the women would stay home and watch the children.. some women helped as aid, and that was that. But, as female rights grew, we gained voting rights, ect, and broke away from tradition. We broke away then, we can break away now.

[speedphantom]

There's nothing much stopping women in the armed forces, just I suppose most people don't want to do that kinda work, whether they be a man or woman:p

[Marionette]

There's nothing much stopping women in the armed forces, just I suppose most people don't want to do that kinda work, whether they be a man or woman:p
I thought women can be in combat in the US. And who knows, some people want to do that stuff. But more important, it would change how women are treated in the military.

[speedphantom]

They can I think. Thats a good way, I'm just not a fan of any armed forces especially if they're doing the dirty work for a terrible government. I'll bet the women in the armed forces are extra respected for what they do which is traditionally a man's domain.

[Marionette]

They can I think. Thats a good way, I'm just not a fan of any armed forces especially if they're doing the dirty work for a terrible government. I'll bet the women in the armed forces are extra respected for what they do which is traditionally a man's domain.
I'm not a fan either, believe me :) but they are a part of most government, and unfortunately a part that often holds a lot of power.

I need to find textual support for this...but I'm pretty sure they can't actually be in combat because there's a big debate about that here. And the thing is, women are far from respected in the army, there are too many stories about women being bullied and humiliated in the military, because the men feels like they are invading their territory. And with that general consensus, people who are against having women in combat say that the men might feel too protective of their female comrade and that will taint their judgment. LOLZ.

[speedphantom]

Ah, thats so lame, all those buffed up meat heads in the military with their masculine insecurities, pathetic!:yell

Thats just being plain sexist, military should deal out some strict punishment for that kinda rubbish.

[Spinel Sun]

Of course both genders are equal to each other :) There is no other way to put it! Men and women are created for each other, right?

But hey, I wonder what if someone said 'No, there is no equality! women are superior to men.'?

Just joking of course, I can't help myself sometimes ;D and yeah, I'm not feminist, I just support the equality of genders :D

[speedphantom]

Its just the attitudes of men which make them think they're superior. The Victorian Police Chief Commissioner in Australia's proposition for her to join this high rollers club was rejected because she was female.

Just an established culture, its quite simple, just get it into men's heads that women are equal but with equality all the greedy power hungry men wouldn't be satisfied ><.

[GIN_ofTheFunk]

Equality of Genders ? Politically yes. Both genders must have equal rights, I don't know what stupid reasons have some patriarchy countries to treat women like secon-hand-humans, but that's totally retarded.
Biologically, the difference between men and women is this- men are physically stronger, but mentaly weaker, they cannot stand more pain and psychically damages, but women are just the opposite- they are mentally stronger, not so impulsive and they stand a lot of physical pain. So, man aren't greater, between men and women is a perfect equillibrium.

[Babbo]

Women do not want or enjoy being treated as equals, but they keep saying they want it so.
I do not understand that.


Women want to be treated as women and not as male buddies by other men.
That is a significant difference.
But they also want to be treated equally as human beings with respect.

Babbo found this exchange to be rather hilarious. Treated like women? Does this include hold backs from when the gentry were a class rather just nice guys? Like ladies first and what not? All ideas that are born from the idea that women are the weaker (read: unequal) sex? To begin with the first post was answered with a vague unexplained ideal that pretty much is the core of the problem of gender equality. How do you treat a woman as a woman? Can equality actually be maintained/created that way?

[Shdo]

i am not so sure that women are stronger mentaly, maybe not as impulsive but sure are emotional.

as for militery, jobs that do require pressing a trigger are fine but the truth is that when it comes to raw power women lack it. for example in my country there is a unit of mixed soldiers, girls and boys share the load and the result is over 50% bone problems to the girls (that thing where your bone starting to fracture, i had it and it isnt fun.)

my only problem with equality between men and women is women who wants the best of the equal conception AND of the old conception.

[Grey1x]

Hmph, we had a similiar post in BF, so I'll just copy paste what I said.

We've discussed about this in our last history class. Women fought for equality since 1920, however, now a days it seems they are UP than men, not equal, but superior. Really, want some examples?

If a woman kisses a sleeping man it is something romantic, beautiful... If a man kisses a sleeping girl it is considered rape. *Inoue x Ichigo :P*

In my physic education class, the girls in my class pulled me in their locker rooms (is this the name? >_>, well, the place they dress up). The guy of the gym gets there and calls me to go the the executive -.-. They (the girls) said sorry and said it was their fault, but he didn't listened to them, and was always saying it was ME the guilty one... (well I must admit I didn't tried to flee :P)

And, next day, a girl enters our locker room and the guy gets there and says "Oh poor girl, she has mistaken the closets"

Giving seat to a lady I disagree, it's not about being gentleman or not, if by some reason she seems cool, or you are bored, maybe for using that as a way to get a conversation... But for just "gentlemanism" I disagree, giving seat to a old person I agree and do it. Women fought for EQUALITY, not SUPERIORITY.

On the other hand there are other factors in which it is unfair for the women. Like there are womens who receive less than men just cuz they are women and that kind of stuff. The hardest things to do and all are always requested to do by men. I also disagree with this, women should have the same rights, and they are as good as us (men) in almost everything. There might be things where men are better, but there are things that women are better too.

So, in summary. I don't think there is an equality, how should I say it. If we add the 2 examples I gave to