View Full Version : Knife Crime ..
neverwinter
07-20-2008, 05:19 PM
Hey all.
I think this is the first thread I have ever started on here so yay! Apologies if this has been done already etc so feel free to move/delete if need be.
Staying in the UK, the big topic of discussion is knife crime, with the amount of deaths by stabbing in England alone around 24/25ish and rising all the time.
Politicians cant agree on what to do, with the Conservative party thinking that ANYONE caught with a knife should be locked up, whilst Labour believe that taking people to hospital to see the results of stabbing could "shock" them enough into stopping. Other believe that a total ban on selling knives, or having an age limit similiar to beer/smoking could help fix the problem.
Personally I dont think any of those soulutions are perfect. First off, let me say its a sad indicator of life in general where people feel so unsafe walking down the street that they have to carry a knife for protection. And whilst I synpathize with these people, inadvertingly by carrying knives themselves they are upping the chance that someone (either themselves or someone else) will get stabbed.
Locking people up for carrying a knife would work, but is it fair to put someone in jail because they carry a knife in fear of their lives? No matter what people say I dont think this is acceptable. Plus taking people who stab someone to a hospital to see the results of their actions IMO wont work for the majority. If someone is capable ot stabbing another, then chances are that seing the result of it wont really shock them. This is also not helped by the fact that a lot of children these days are more and more desentisized (spelling) to acts of violence, and a breakdown in respect (for people) in general.
So I guess, my question is, what is your take on knife crime? Can it be stopped? What actions should be taken to stop it or what should be done to people who infact are caught and charged with the crime? Perhaps some of the board members feel like they have to carry a knive as well If so would be nice to hear your point of view)
Hope to hear some of your thoughts :)
banning of sales.
sure there are alot of knifes out there but bringing more in and selling them in the mall will not help even a little.
Fyrefox
07-20-2008, 05:49 PM
What if you don't want to carry a gun, and someone is stalking you? Pepper spray is not a viable option, as the stalker could simply take it out of your hand before you spray them. Of, course, there are always tasers and stun guns, but that's hardly any better. What's to keep someone from electrocuting other people? There isn't really a legislative answer to this problem.
good topic
but i think its the exact same debate as gun control, just in a different wrapper
I can't imagine banning them would work
all that would do is make the people who are law abiding, ie the people who would neevr use, from having it as protection
people will make their own, it happens in prisions all the time
How could it maybe be fixed or prevented, all i can think of at the moment is for them to hire more police, people are less likely to do soemthing if they will be seen doing it
look at it this way, if they are banned it will be harder to get it. no matter what the crime you want to stop the first action is to make sure there would be LESS of the instruments of the crime in the street.
the next step would be to gather knifes (maybe buying from the owners) and then you can actually ban holding knives.
dont fool yourselves, knifes are tools that are meant to kill where teaser are designed to immobilize. there is little point in having a knife if you are not prepared to cut someone or stab him.
what i say is this, if someone is caught with a knife outside of his home it will be the same as carrying a gun without a license, its a tool for killing and there is no reason to walk with it outside of your house if you are not planning to stab some1.
want defence? go for spray or teaser or shocker, they are non lethal and can be just as effective if not more against attackers. a knife can be disarmed just like a spray.
mechaqua
07-20-2008, 11:52 PM
well i happen to live in two countries for parts of the year living in Canada i don't there much about knife crimes or gun crimes (i should like to note that i live in suburb) when i say i don't here about it means it doesn't happen it just does not happen as much or at least its not common to hear on the local news in the states though its a whole different story as when i am living in the states in the states my home is outside a major city and everyday on the local news you here something about a murder by gun or knife personally i more worried about gun crimes, least with a knife to your gut your chance of survival is much higher then a gun to your gut, bullets are hard to get out
look at it this way, if they are banned it will be harder to get it. no matter what the crime you want to stop the first action is to make sure there would be LESS of the instruments of the crime in the street.
i agree that the best way to prevent a crime would be to ensure that the weapons aren't present, but thats just the thing, banned them wont stop the people from getting them
yea, it makes it harder to get them, so maybe people like you and me wouldn't attempt to get one, but a gang member would
then we would be in a worse situation if attacked
Im not saying that we should just allow knife use to run rampant, but banning it by itself would be very ineffective i think
its better to have a third party, who can protect the people and have a higher chance of reducing the outbreak of crimes
its better to have a third party, who can protect the people and have a higher chance of reducing the outbreak of crimes
as...police?
How could it maybe be fixed or prevented, all i can think of at the moment is for them to hire more police, people are less likely to do soemthing if they will be seen doing it
as...police?
yeah, exactly
I know that would cost far more, to have far more police officers on the street, but its not as if it would hurt the economy
any country could use more jobs and more moeny movement
plus, its not as if other forms of crime would stay the smae, its effects spread all over
cornflakes
07-21-2008, 01:08 PM
but i think its the exact same debate as gun control, just in a different wrapper
I strongly disagree. A gun is manufactured for one and only one purpose: to hurt/maim another. The same cannot be said about knives (K-bars are another thing). Therefore I support gun control, but not knife control.
didnt get it, a knife is used to stab and cut, its the same as a gun. you can fire at someone head and kill him and you can stab him in the neck and kill him.
you can also shot some1 at the leg and stop him or stab him in the leg and stop him.
the diffrence is that guns require license (in most places) and knife dosnt.
that makes knifes even more dangerous since anyone can get them freely without any restriction and there is no supervision over it while guns (although as a weapon they are more dangerous) at least have a system that tries to regulate them.
Hiraeth
07-21-2008, 01:21 PM
What about people who buy knives for religious purposes?
Wiccans, amongst others, use knives called athames in rituals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athame
If you don't allow them to buy knives then you're infringing on freedom of religion.
And no they don't use them to slaughter animals, their use is symbolic.
cornflakes- but then we get into hunting knived, made soley to cut open animals
both are intended to not be used soley for killing another person, but that becomes the biggest use it has
granted its not the exact smae, but it is very similar
Its a story about people taking aweapon and inflicting harm, and because there are bad people, we want to ruin it for everyone without really solving the issue
then hunting knives should be licensed just like the hunter license his gun, actually it can happen at the same time.
as for the religious knives. i have in my room a set of fake katanas, they are barely sharp and hitting some1 with it is as effective as clubbing him. the same is true to most decorative blades, they are simply not made for actual use, they are dull and if sharpen they are damaged.
the same can be done with the wiccans. a specially made dull blade. if the blade is only for directing enegies then it shouldnt be dangerous.
bradc
07-21-2008, 04:03 PM
You're not going to ban a knife when I need a cooking utensil to cook a meal!!! :yell
In cooking and culinary industry banning it would fail; what are the majority public going to eat at restaurants without a knife in hand to cut a steak? A dull knife wouldn't work; neither would camping with army knife when you are talking about surviving out in the woods.
no one is talking about kitchen knives but on professional knives that are made for stabbing and for cutting of a living creature.
also as i said before, if you are in the wilderness, hunting for example, then just like you have a license for the gun you hunt with you will have a license for the hunting knife.
teh dull knives are for rituals and for decorations. next time actually read my post before reffering to it.
bradc
07-21-2008, 04:38 PM
Shdo... Knife is still a knife no matter how it's used.
And Rain is right.
If you can hunt to kill with a knife for cooking purposes; you can use a knife and inflict on another human being just the same. But it's about controling your desires and your evil demons getting the best of you. Why else you often hear about gun shooting and people getting stabbed out of nowhere?
Because there are bad people out there that exist... Is a fact.
just becuase people chose to do something dosnt mean that the rules should help them to do it by allowing to buy knives without any restrictions.
and i am not talking about cute little stake knives but this kind
switchblades
http://www.2-clicks-collectableknives.com/images/image/Automatic%20switchblade%20knives.jpg
butterfly knife
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/phyreblade_blog/Weapons/Black%20Dragon%20Butterfly/BlackDragonButterflyKnife_540.jpg
those are used to stab people and nothing but stabbing.
hinting knives are to be licensed, if you actually hunt something then you use a gun, if you use a gun then you have a license so you will have a license for knife as well.
http://www.apexresourcegroup.com/images/blackhunterd.jpg
and finally, if you need a knife for some religious ritual that dosnt actually require shedding blood then it shouldnt be sharp anyway.
bradc
07-21-2008, 04:52 PM
There are kids who been out on the streets doing things they shouldn't be doing, and been into jail. They get pulled off the streets into the culinary kitchen in order to change their lives around; getting a job, a life to live by cooking for the soul and the people. If they were out on the streets any longer they would have done the same to get a knife illegally and hurt someone.
A chef with a knife is just as a dangerous, if you stand too close when the person was chopping up his meal to be cook; or the knife slipped out his hand. A chef has more knife for various cooking and usage than those of the criminal world.
Stabbing still causes death result of bleeding and left for dead; the human body isn't 100% bullet proof or knife safe.
Fyrefox
07-21-2008, 05:37 PM
While we're deciding what should be banned because it can kill someone, let's ban golf clubs. And forks. And baseball bats. And just about everything else. You can't just say "Because this can kill someone, it should be banned." I happen to possess four knives, does this mean I will go out and stab someone? No. It all comes down to intention. You can't say that just because something is this, all others will be like this. That's like saying "Because this white guy hates Jews, all white people hate Jews." It's just not true, and never will be.
Sorry if that confuses anyone.
does those knives sharp? why do you need four sharp knives? what kind of knives are they? switchblades? hunthing knives?
those are questions that should shed light if you should have those knives or not.
switchblades are for stabbing for example, you dont need them for outdoor survival, for example.
if you have knives for beauty like my swords then they shouldnt be sharp, why the hell do you need a sharp blade if not to cut with it?
if your knives are for hunting reasons how licensing them will interupt your hunt? you license your rifle right? so where is the problem?
if there is no need in license for knives then why is there a need for license for guns?
Fyrefox
07-21-2008, 06:14 PM
All of them are sharp yes...
Why do I need knives? Why do you need swords?
And three of them are throwing knives. The last is for wilderness survival.
i dont tell people not to have knives, i am saying that there should be limitations.
a love japanese katana's my swords are decoration swords meaning that they are not sharp and sharping them will cause increased rust. as i said, if its not for use (decoration, ritual) then it shouldnt be sharp.
as for hunting knives, if someone have one it should be licensed, that is my solution to at least decreasing the amount of knife crimes. of course it wont stop someone that have hunting knife from deciding to kill someone just like it wont stop someone with a licensed gun to kill someone but it will at least be supervised. some people might not get the gun\knife at all (as defined by the creteria for getting those weapons) because of dubious motives.
just like several countries ban firearms (japan) and other countries is slowly semi-banning types of aggresive dogs (special license), banning some knives and regulating others will only make knife crimes less frequant.
Fyrefox
07-21-2008, 06:32 PM
Banning them would also increase underground trading. Which means mroe money in the hands of people who shouldn't be out on the streets, and more knives coming in illegally, going into the hands of gangs.....
Yeah, it happens anyway. But if knife trading is legal, then at least you know where some of the knifes are coming from, right? If there's a wasp in the room, I want to be able to see it.
Yeah, this is changing tacts a little. But I'm getting bored with the other ones.
if its illegal to have those without a license then you can persecute those who sell them and those who hold them and put them in prison.
for example guns, if there is license laws then people sell them underground but at least its harder to get one and if you have illegal one then its a felony on its own which will send you to prison.
just because people will get them in illegal ways doesn't mean it should be legal, since then what the point in any law? people will break laws anyways but it doesnt mean the laws are meaningless since they do serve a purpose.
bradc
07-21-2008, 07:16 PM
Again a person have motives and intentions to kill when they see fit, or they are mentally ill for that matter what happens in the underworld. Whether with mafia and gang relations. If it is licensed and registered, the person can still kill, but most probably stolen off the person's property to do it.
The knife is a tool used by ancient ancestors who are hunters and gatherers, what do they do by campfires? They make their weapons for hunting. What you hunt and make dinner out of, is what you can kill with. Why do think tribes fight for land? Why do people make and wield swords?
One person verses the mass public; the source is not the public, but one person alone can harm another. Banning it would increase crime... The source of the crime is elsewhere, and chefs on an angry day is definitely not to mess with. A surgeon with a knife is to save your life is same as one person killing you outside of the hospital; they have just the same amount of tools as the chef do too.
banning it will increase crime? then you just stroke a revolutinery idea to stop crime! we will just allow everyone to do what they want and then crime will drop? so if murder is legal now will there be less murder?
seriously now, can you explain to me how by making it harder to criminals to get knives and guns will increase crime?
bradc
07-21-2008, 07:35 PM
If you allow people to do whatever they want, we wouldn't have law in the first place to stop crime? The law is to provide control, and without a control environment, wouldn't we have a much bigger problems on our hands? Example of robbing, looting, and killing... Basically a riot.
Because criminals live in the underworld and do underground trading with knifes and other weapons; and what have you. When you are sleeping during the night; they are most likely trading. The police never notice until later in the day, or someone dials the number when they hear weird disturbances.
you realise you are saying two diffrent things? first you say that laws and banning of certain acts keep those actions under control and then you say that by banning knives there would be MORE crime.
decide already, you cant say two things so opposite in the same post. you have not explained how banning knives or license them will cause more knife crimes.
you have not explained how banning knives or license them will cause more knife crimes.
I look at it in the following way:
who are people more likely to steal from, people that look as if they can defend themselves or more defenseless looking
who is more likely to get assulted, a huge buff guy, or a smaller skinner guy
are you more likely to mess with someone who has a knife or probably has a knife or soemone who you are almost assured doesn't have one
banning knives won't stop criminals from carrying one, it will stop normal people from carrying one in self defense
this is my rational
banning knives reduces your likelyhood of being able to defend yourself
or, conversly, a person won't attempt to rob a person/palce where they are likely to be quickly attacked back. Who will never see someone held at gunpoint at an NRA convention or a gun show
neverwinter
07-21-2008, 09:59 PM
Nice conversation going on here.
I waited a bit to see others people takes on it before stating my opinion. The situation is getting a ot of media coverage in the UK, and rightly so, but realistically I dont think there is anything we can do to cut back on knife crime completly. We can however make things harder and that is what should be done.
I understand that certain religions/jobs etc need knifes, so perhaps the first thing that has to be done is some kind of control over knifes. I.e it should be impossible for a 14 year old to walk into tescos and buy themselves a 8 inch cooking knive.
Firstly the cashiers should be told not to sell them to youngsters in the first place (not that this will work, its all about money. Afterall if you cant stop a shop keeper from selling drink/cigarettes to 15 year olds, it wont stop them selling a knive if it makes them money).
Would a age limit on the selling of knives help? Possibly. It would make it that bit harder for them to aquire a knive, so it would be a start.
The main soultion for me would have to involve the Police. More officers, on the streets, doing their job. Red tape, filling in forms, answering phones - That is the general perception that the UK public have on what Police Officers spend most of their time doing. Surely we have to free them from as much red tape as possible, higher more officers, and get them onto the street. Give them powers to disperse large groups of youths/gangs and the powers to spot check people.** (see below for added info on this)
Metal detecting machines are expensive, be they fixed devices or portable. However every town/city has a main street/road/path that has a large amount of footfall/passerbys. Police should have portable units at these locations once or twice a week and spot checking people at random. Your caught with a knife? Into the station you go.
The big problem with arresting people caught with a knive is that you cant seperate them from whos using a knive with the intent to harm, and who carries a knife with the intent to protect themselves or friends. I can easily understand peoples fear over the situation, and to many having a knife makes them feel safer. In the long run (as I have stated in my first post) all this does is incite others, and make the chance of someone getting stabbed that much higher. So perhaps in the end both groups (those wanting a knife for violence, and those wanting it for protection) should be arrested as a way of trying to force it from our streets.
Almost finished I promise!!
In the end, I think the big problem we haave in the UK, is a breakdown in social standards. Kids in general dont have any respect for others, and this is down to a lack of bad parenting. Parents wash their hands of the kids saying its not their responsibility, and kids shrug their shoulders and say its due to bad parenting.
Whilst I dont agree with it, there is something to be said for Police arresting both the person who done the crime, and their parents. Whilst the parents were not guilty, they should be held responsible in part for them not giving a damm about their kids (this is a whole new kettle of fish I might discuss later in a diff topic)
**
he big problem with this is that far to many people cry out and clame racial prejudice and say they are being targeted because of skin colour, dress sense or religion. The fact is this should be a non issue as Police should just be spot checking everyone and not choose people in the crowd they "think" look dodgy.
I look at it in the following way:
who are people more likely to steal from, people that look as if they can defend themselves or more defenseless looking
who is more likely to get assulted, a huge buff guy, or a smaller skinner guy
are you more likely to mess with someone who has a knife or probably has a knife or soemone who you are almost assured doesn't have one
banning knives won't stop criminals from carrying one, it will stop normal people from carrying one in self defense
this is my rational
banning knives reduces your likelyhood of being able to defend yourself
or, conversly, a person won't attempt to rob a person/palce where they are likely to be quickly attacked back. Who will never see someone held at gunpoint at an NRA convention or a gun show
then use a shocker/taser/mace/attack dog
no need for a knife to defend yourself. besides like i said before, its like gun license, just because criminals get guns in illigel means dosnt mean that there shouldnt be license to guns and limitations. the same goes to knives.
again, if knives are illigel to carry then it will be more easy to arrest a criminal even before he does something wrong, just by holding the knife he is breaking the law and will be sent for jail.
cornflakes
07-22-2008, 12:52 PM
cornflakes- but then we get into hunting knived, made soley to cut open animals
both are intended to not be used soley for killing another person, but that becomes the biggest use it has
granted its not the exact smae, but it is very similar
I see what you're saying.... my point, though, was that to me there is a difference between something expressedly designed to cause harm, and something that can be used for harm-- as Fyrefox pointed out in this (http://www.bleachasylum.com/showpost.php?p=610203&postcount=20) excellent post, the latter includes anything from golf clubs to pencils to cars. The former include guns, hand braces and tasers.
....does that make sense? :confused:
didnt get it, a knife is used to stab and cut, its the same as a gun. you can fire at someone head and kill him and you can stab him in the neck and kill him.
you can also shot some1 at the leg and stop him or stab him in the leg and stop him.
the diffrence is that guns require license (in most places) and knife dosnt.
Sorry I didn't clarify, by knives I meant ordinary knives like cooking knives and the sort, not K-bars and combat razors. So I agree about banning/regulating K-bars, but not carving knives.
then use a shocker/taser/mace/attack dog
no need for a knife to defend yourself. besides like i said before, its like gun license, just because criminals get guns in illigel means dosnt mean that there shouldnt be license to guns and limitations. the same goes to knives.
I disagree, I don't see the difference between using a K-bar or mace to defend yourself. Both are explicitly designed to hurt people.
whats a k-bar?
also there is a diffrence between hurt and kill, otherwise everyone would use guns for self defence.
cornflakes
07-22-2008, 12:58 PM
Well that was fast. :P
This is a K-bar:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/KA-BAR.jpg
You could also argue that mace/taser/etc. can be used to rob people or commit other crimes such as rape, so....
the question is why do you need a knife that is used by USMC? if its for survival during hunt or something then i say license it.
if its for decoration then you dont need it to be sharp.
if its for defence then you should use shocker or mace or tazer instead. and yes a knife is more likely to kill then any of those unless you are being attacked by old men with heart condition.
bradc
07-22-2008, 01:08 PM
The problem is when you ban something, it conflicts with the public interest and hobby. Mass majority of people who don't commit any crime, when only a few dozen handful with history involved with murder and being in prison; the fact that they are mentally ill, and the neighhourhood have history of on-going crime because it's that bad. Something such as cooking and culinary arts where knives are used every day from house to restaurants; people who go camping needs these tools to survive in the wilderness... These are interest of the public like walking a dog with a dog leash, and golfing with golf clubs.
Fyrefox
07-22-2008, 01:56 PM
if its for defence then you should use shocker or mace or tazer instead. and yes a knife is more likely to kill then any of those unless you are being attacked by old men with heart condition.
No, it's not more likely to kill. You obviously don't live in Texas. A year or so ago, a piece of legislation (of some sort) was passed requiring all Texas cops to carry tazers. The politicians figured this would reduce the number of police-inflicted casualties. What happened is that some cops would overreact and taze a person until they had a heart attack. And these were cops that were just slightly jumpy. You really want to put a tazer in the hands of someone who is scared out of their mind?
bradc
07-22-2008, 02:02 PM
No, it's not more likely to kill. You obviously don't live in Texas. A year or so ago, a piece of legislation (of some sort) was passed requiring all Texas cops to carry tazers. The politicians figured this would reduce the number of police-inflicted casualties. What happened is that some cops would overreact and taze a person until they had a heart attack. And these were cops that were just slightly jumpy. You really want to put a tazer in the hands of someone who is scared out of their mind?
Same thing happened in Canada a while back. The police taser a guy going through customs who acting oddly, but mostly unarmed; he died after he was tasered.
ETA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IJqdL40lvU
its still less dangerous then using knives. you can kill with your bare hands if you are overreacting but with a blade you dont even need to be jumpy or anything, you just need to cut deep enough (even if you dont want to) and the criminal will bleed to death.
with a tazer you need to keep on pumping the trigger to cause what you described, its tottaly diffrent.
and do you think that a person who is scared like you described (and will keep the trigger going) wont be scared enough to stab the criminal again and again? in the end tazers are still less deadly then knives and a more safe alternative to blades.
bradc
07-22-2008, 02:30 PM
its still less dangerous then using knives. you can kill with your bare hands if you are overreacting but with a blade you dont even need to be jumpy or anything, you just need to cut deep enough (even if you dont want to) and the criminal will bleed to death.
with a tazer you need to keep on pumping the trigger to cause what you described, its tottaly diffrent.
The tazer killed a man. A knife and a baton won't make much difference when you are stabbed, electricuited and beatened to death... What part of KILLING don't you understand? There are many ways to do something without using any weapons at all. The criminal happens to be an unarmed innocent man waiting at customs for 12 hours, who happens to speak Polish.
cornflakes
07-22-2008, 02:41 PM
its still less dangerous then using knives. you can kill with your bare hands if you are overreacting but with a blade you dont even need to be jumpy or anything, you just need to cut deep enough (even if you dont want to) and the criminal will bleed to death.
with a tazer you need to keep on pumping the trigger to cause what you described, its tottaly diffrent.
and do you think that a person who is scared like you described (and will keep the trigger going) wont be scared enough to stab the criminal again and again? in the end tazers are still less deadly then knives and a more safe alternative to blades.
IMO debating over lethality is missing the point. I thought the problem we were debating was that certain instruments can be misused for crime.
Does the profileration of tazers/mace/whatever instead of knives make it safer to walk on the street? In the sense that the recipient of an attack is less likely to die, then yes. But tasers/mace are also a remarkably effective way to
incapacitate and mug someone.
mug yes but not to kill. a criminal will stab you and take your money, i preffer to be maced and then losing my money then being stabbed in the stomach and then lose my money.
if the question here is how to reduce knife crimes then the answer is simple, to put restriction on those weapons.
bradc
07-22-2008, 02:51 PM
mug yes but not to kill. a criminal will stab you and take your money, i preffer to be maced and then losing my money then being stabbed in the stomach and then lose my money.
if the question here is how to reduce knife crimes then the answer is simple, to put restriction on those weapons.
If you put a restriction on those weapons. What would banning of knives cause to the cooking and culinary industry? How do you eat a steak without a knife when served at a restaurant? The problem is not the weapons; the problem is how the person act and behave, they may or may not have intentions of harming someone at all. The person could be as innocent as you and me, who simply want to enjoy their own hobby and interest.
cornflakes
07-22-2008, 03:09 PM
mug yes but not to kill. a criminal will stab you and take your money, i preffer to be maced and then losing my money then being stabbed in the stomach and then lose my money.
I prefer not to be mugged at all. ;)
I prefer not to be mugged at all. ;)
too bad...;)
Fyrefox
07-22-2008, 04:18 PM
The problem is not the weapons; the problem is how the person act and behave, they may or may not have intentions of harming someone at all. The person could be as innocent as you and me, who simply want to enjoy their own hobby and interest.
I said something along these lines several pages ago. How come it stops the debate when you use it? That's not right. :headscratch:
so to avoid the chance of a nice guy going on a rampage the best way is to put restrictions on knives, if everyone are potential killers then its only strengthen my stand.
Fyrefox
07-22-2008, 04:38 PM
No, he'll still go on a rampage. He'll just use something else, even if it's a melon baller. Since it boils down to intentions, banning things won't help. It'll still happen, whether knives are banned or not.
then if it dosnt important what weapon he will use because the result will be the same then what is the point in gun license?
if i am a normal person and someone pissed me enough for me to attack him and i have two options (lets say its a parallel universe) one is a tazer and one is a knife.
knife scenario- i chrage at the person in my fury and stab him once, i then understand what i have done and tries to stop the bleeding but its too late and the victim die in hospital, this is murder, even if i understood that i had done a mistake one second after i actually stabbed him.
tazer\shocker\mace scenerio- in my rage i fire on the person, he is tazed and flicker on the floor, in order to kill him with a tazer ill need to continue pressing the trigger for much more then a second.
the diffrence is this, with a gun or blade you need 1 second of misjudgment while with the other options you will need alot more time to actually kill the person.
Fyrefox
07-22-2008, 05:09 PM
Hmmm......
My parallel universe:
Tazer scene: Guy attacks me. I pull out a tazer and throw it at his face. Before he recovers, I knee him in the stomach and sweep his feet out from under him, following through into an arm break. So my guy goes to the hospital with a broken arm, and eventually to prison for attempted assault.
Knife scene: Guy attacks me. I stab the knife in between his radius and ulna, rendering one arm useless, and forcing him to drop any weapon he's holding. I kick him in the stomach, knee him in the face, (breaking his nose) , and then maybe another kick to the back, which drops him. I pull my knife out of his arm, wipe it down, and use it to hold him down until the cops get there.
Okay so my guy lives because:
a) Not all knife wounds are lethal.
b) I had not intention of killing him.
assuming you got the training to use a knife that way. a regular person with no training or expiriance with knives will just stab (especially if he panicks) and have more chances to kill someone. saying that people using tazers are more dangerous or the same as people using knives...i really dont see how it can be.
the fact remain that in order to decrease knife crimes or gun crimes is restrictions.
I see what you're saying.... my point, though, was that to me there is a difference between something expressedly designed to cause harm, and something that can be used for harm-- as Fyrefox pointed out in this (http://www.bleachasylum.com/showpost.php?p=610203&postcount=20) excellent post, the latter includes anything from golf clubs to pencils to cars. The former include guns, hand braces and tasers.
....does that make sense? :confused:
that makes sense, and I do agree, to an extent
I am fine with restricting (I hate the word banning) the use/sale of certain instruments that have no use other than the harm of another person
like an automatic rifle or a switch blade, but if you restrict them, then people with either use another version of the weapon
maybe it will cause a difference, maybe even a notable difference int he number of crimes, but i still don't think it will be a large change
I am not 100% against the restriction fo certain types of knives, but no matter what, if that is the first move, or the biggest move that is one, its a mistake
put in more police, try to change the people
trying to take away the knives is just a temporary bandaid, it won't solve the problem, just slightly delay them
the fact remain that in order to decrease knife crimes or gun crimes is restrictions.
lol, i guess this is the root of where we disagree on these issues
you keep saying that people will just get those things illegaly, but that its also true about guns and drugs and you cant say that outlawing those causing them to increase(the crimes of murder with guns and drug use. i am talking about heavy drugs).
as for the amout of change, it dosnt matter if its massive amount or small ones because we are talking about a crime that cause DEATH, any decrease will be good.
to me its more important that people will stay alive then that my knife, which is only for beauty, will be sharp. the easyness in which people can get knives is directly connected to the amount of crimes. i have person A so i go and buy a big hunting knife that can saw bone with its rear side.
no questions, no problems, i just got a weapon for murder (and dont give me this golf stick bullshit, knives are made to cut flesh and not to play a ball game)
you keep saying that people will just get those things illegaly, but that its also true about guns and drugs and you cant say that outlawing those causing them to increase(the crimes of murder with guns and drug use. i am talking about heavy drugs)
well I dont really think that about murder, but drugs i do think it. I've said it in the legalizing marijuana thread, I think if it were legal the use would actually probably go down;)
as for the amout of change, it dosnt matter if its massive amount or small ones because we are talking about a crime that cause DEATH, any decrease will be good.
to me its more important that people will stay alive then that my knife, which is only for beauty, will be sharp. the easyness in which people can get knives is directly connected to the amount of crimes. i have person A so i go and buy a big hunting knife that can saw bone with its rear side.
no questions, no problems, i just got a weapon for murder (and dont give me this golf stick bullshit, knives are made to cut flesh and not to play a ball game)
and yea, it would be wortgh it if it saved one life, but its just 1 life, whereas I think with my idea so much more can be saved
and yea, knives are made to cut flesh, some knives are made purley to cut other people, but so should we start arresting people based on what they could do
i dont carry one around, but if i wanted to carry around a knife, just for self defense and whatnot, i would be royally upset if I could be arrested for such an act
emoloz
07-22-2008, 07:23 PM
Can't ban them Industry uses knifes in safe ways a lot.
Education, less paper work on the police force, teaching parents morals and values and punishing them too if there child is found with a knife, i like the idea of taking kids into hospitals if there found with knifes as well to see stab victims to see it first hand.
Theres lots of little ways and communities now need to be less alienated and work together to help reduce the crime from within.
Harder punishments am all for sending these kids down the sewers to clean them up that would teach them because for certain you have to be brave to go down there.
never said arrest them for having knives, i said taking their knives away and license those who 'must' be used like hunting knives.
after you collected the knives (paying for them) any one who still have a knife is really questionable.
as for old knives with nostalgic value, even today (in the UK, where switchblades and butterfly knives are illigel) those that are more then a century old are considered antiqes and may remain at their owners.
even with more cops (assuming you can have more cops, recruitment might be too low) you cant really stop a crime that happen in a moment of passion (as you said, we cant just arrest people for walking around with knives, so even if there are more cops they cant really do much to someone who is walking with a knife until he actually attack, assuming they dont have intel) so all their numbers are pretty useless because knives are still easy for grab.
as for the 1 death comment, i checked it out and there are between 22,000 to 60,000 stabbing a year in the UK (this is a thread which is influanced from the UK situation)
even if banning knives will only reduce the stabbing by 5% it will be a massive success.
the fact is that if you truly want to get rid of some problem then you must take the price. you cant eat the cake and keep it full, and you cant truly reduce crime and stabbing without outting limitations and putting more policemen to make sure that the restrictions actually happens and doing all this might be uncomfortable to people with love for knives but in the end the question is how much is it important to you to stop knife crime.
are you ready to take the price for it?
neverwinter
07-22-2008, 09:38 PM
Hmmm......
My parallel universe:
Tazer scene: Guy attacks me. I pull out a tazer and throw it at his face. Before he recovers, I knee him in the stomach and sweep his feet out from under him, following through into an arm break. So my guy goes to the hospital with a broken arm, and eventually to prison for attempted assault.
Knife scene: Guy attacks me. I stab the knife in between his radius and ulna, rendering one arm useless, and forcing him to drop any weapon he's holding. I kick him in the stomach, knee him in the face, (breaking his nose) , and then maybe another kick to the back, which drops him. I pull my knife out of his arm, wipe it down, and use it to hold him down until the cops get there.
Okay so my guy lives because:
a) Not all knife wounds are lethal.
b) I had not intention of killing him.
Nice in theory, but unless your military/combat trained that wont ever happen. Normal people in this situation are full of adrenaline, scared and acting on basis self preservation. If you have a knive you dont think "I will stab his arm to slow him down". You aim for the biggest target you can, and thats the body.
I get what your trying to say though.
As for the tazer situation, I dont know all that much about them. I know that peole have died due to being shocked to much, or it affecting the heart etc, but lets be realistic here. The ratio of people killed by kives and tazers is way out of sync.
I wonder how the police etc decide on what voltage setting they have to be set at to actually stun someone. Would it not be possible to lower the voltage somehwat, making them safer, but still be able stun/slow down an attacker? That might make them more viable I guess.
neverwinter, you must know more about the subject since you came up with this thread, how many attacks are there in the UK and how much are fatal?
bradc
07-22-2008, 09:51 PM
I said something along these lines several pages ago. How come it stops the debate when you use it? That's not right. :headscratch:
Looking at both side of the coin and not one sided. What is bad, there is good. What is good, there is bad. You cannot have one without the other; it's a yin-yang, black and white that turns grey view of life. It's how the work spin on its axes that makes night and day.
List of bans the world tried banning: Knives, gun, alcohol, cigarettes; and things from 9/11 were also tossed into the mess. When you are not harming the person. Is usually and still the psychlogic behavioural of person's intent and motive.
The world is pretty heading into social disaster because these things are banned for the worst, not for the better. They create more fear because you use them on occasionally or daily basis; even for hobby and interest.
For alcohol, some happens to be people are wine collectors, celebration
For guns, people who live in country side hunt when it's the season
For knives, cooking and culinary; camping, daily usage (impossible to ban)
For cigarettes, people choose to smoke; bring money into the economy
neverwinter
07-22-2008, 09:54 PM
neverwinter, you must know more about the subject since you came up with this thread, how many attacks are there in the UK and how much are fatal?
Its hard to get a definite figures, but heres some info I managed to dredge up..
"the first fatal stabbing in 2008 occurred just hours into the new year! "
"with at least three more fatal stabbings in the UK being reported in the first week. "
"In 2007, there were 27 teenagers stabbed to death in London alone"
"in the first 10 weeks of 2008 there have been 9 fatal stabbings in London"
"Figures obtained under the freedom of information act show that there is a knife crime committed in the UK every 24 minutes"
"- in fact the figures show that there have been 5,500 serious knife crimes in the UK in just 3 months"
"Up to 60,000 young people, mostly male, may be stabbed and injured each year, the equivalent of more than 160 victims a day, according to a worst-case estimate for knife violence in England and Wales.
On the other hand, the figure may be around 22,000 each year for victims aged 10 - 25-year-old"
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/06/27110147/01543
This shows stastics for Just Scotland from 1998-2003
"Already, 20 teenagers have been murdered in London, the majority of them stabbed to death."
"Police recorded 22,151 offences involving knives last year in England and Wales, including grievous bodily harm, attempted murder, woundings and robbery."
"Department of Health statistics show that almost 14,000 people were treated in hospital for stab wounds last year (446 of them aged 14 and under) - an increase of nearly 20% in five years"
Whilst you can take some of these figures with a slight pinch of salt, some of them are government and police released figures. Some of it is shocking.
bradc
07-22-2008, 10:05 PM
Akihabara, Japan; technology and anime district had a random stabbing rampage happened more than once. But most people in Japan have common sense, majority don't use the court system at all and sort them out themselves, even if criminal. They found the man was later arrested... It's still revolves around a person having mental illness, a intent or a motive based on their actions. The person just snapped.
If they ban the knives; it would affect the economy. Mostly would hurt those who run a restaurant (so much for those tasty sushi being sliced up and made in front of you); it would be the same elsewhere. Banning anything at all really...
Read: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080609a1.html
i assume that the teenagers were stabbed by other teenagers in the frame of gangwars or disputes, if this is the case then it shows that teenagers have quite a free access to knives. with this data i am sure that there are simply too many available knives in the streets, to increase the number of cops will require a massive amount (its a big country) and i dont think that will help (just look at the numbers of stabbing)
knife ban is the only way to slow it down before educational means can kick in, and be sure that even if you do ban the knives and start collecting them from the streets it will take quite some time to have the stabbing rate go down because the street is saturated with knives as the figures shows.
bradc
07-22-2008, 10:11 PM
Shdo... You have them in your own HOUSE. Free access of knives is that easy.
You owe me a nice juicy steak...
Fyrefox
07-23-2008, 07:05 PM
as for the amout of change, it dosnt matter if its massive amount or small ones because we are talking about a crime that cause DEATH, any decrease will be good.
to me its more important that people will stay alive then that my knife, which is only for beauty, will be sharp. the easyness in which people can get knives is directly connected to the amount of crimes. i have person A so i go and buy a big hunting knife that can saw bone with its rear side.
no questions, no problems, i just got a weapon for murder
We aren't talking about a crime that causes death.....directly. We're talking about knife crimes, which can be defined as "Crime involving the use of a knife." I don't have to stab you to death, I just gotta hold the blade to your thrroat while I pick you pocket. That's a knife crime, but it's the stabbing across town that makes the news. The world is like that.
And are you going to go out and stick people with your non-sharp sword? Of course not. You aren't the type of person who is inclined to do that. Once again, the 'intentions' point returns.
some stabbing cause deaths and some dont, just like shockers might or might not kill but there is no doubt that a knife is more dangerous and therefor need to be banned.
who knows? maybe i will stab people, the seller of the blade dosnt know. perhaps you will throw your throwing knives at someone and maybe not, either way if you buy something only for beauty it should be dull bladed. if its not for beauty then the question is why do you need it?
Fyrefox
07-24-2008, 12:00 AM
I hate to say it, but we're re-heating points again like three-day-old leftovers. So, I'm gonna look for another debate I can pick up on.
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