Whats actually wrong with comunism and why does america have a problem with it?

[ookami]

Well looking at comunism its all about equality that means everyone has the same rights , everybody get to have a say in somthing true but the idea of comunism at the moment only exsists in heaven, If a government or infact the world became comunist there would be no war governments would be more complient with each other, the only thing about comunism is that it has always fell into the hands of a dictator but there are some great names in comunism Lenin truly a great scientist his ideas could have revelutionised medicine but being under the control of dictators he wasn't able to go into projects like that. Why do people have a problem with comunism this is mainly aimed at the USA it just doesn't make sense the idea of comunism is equallity so why does america have a problem they start pointless wars because of an idea its like an argument on bigbrother completly pointless. If you are american and take offence to this only deffend your status in the debate.

[Shdo]

communisem say that everyone will work as much as they can and recieve what they need.
this work only if the people who practice it are...better then what we have at the moment.
as long as humanity is selfish it wont work.


the reason that america hate it so much, i think, is because capitalism is the most opposite method and because communisem means soviet union (at the time) and they were america greatest rival.

[Sarvik]

Ehh, there is no need to be American to see all communism related problems.

Communism simply does not work in practice. It does not fit effectively with human nature.
So far practically all states that have tried to reach communism have turned into more or less opressive dictatorships, with some of these becoming extremely opressive, like Stalin's USSR, Pol Pot's Cambodia, modern North-Korea.

Question if working communist state would be more peaceful or something is pretty damn irrelevant, because working communist state is practically oxymoron.

Btw, Lenin wasn't so awesome at all. Typical dictator, not so bloody as Stalin, but that is not really an achievement.

[Rain]

Amerca has a problem with communism because pretty much, they/we have no clue what it is

Most of what people know is that the soviet union was communist, and in the 50's communism was evil, so communism today is evil

The US isn't really that open minded when it comes to ideas that differ from the US's ;)


communism isn't a terrible idea or anything, but in any practical situation it always fails

If we assume that you get a good peaceful leader to be in charge of a communst country,a nd even if all the people love the ssytem, it still won't work

I could maybe go into extra detail, but economically, communism isn't very effective, and suffers from problems

example, communism is very slow and inefficient at responding to shortages/surpluses and just in general at figuring what amount peopel need in something

[cornflakes]

So far practically all states that have tried to reach communism have turned into more or less opressive dictatorships, with some of these becoming extremely opressive, like Stalin's USSR, Pol Pot's Cambodia, modern North-Korea.
Exactly so. There's a reason for that, Marx postulated a period of a centralised government working to eliminate class differences before true dictatorship of the proletariat can come into being. (Or something like that... ^^') But human nature is such that we are reluctant to give up power once we have it, especially absolute power.

And that is precisely the problem with communism-- it assumes human beings to be inherently good-natured and noble. While it sounds alright in theory, even a passing familiarity with history will show how terribly naive this is. The truth is that humans are corruptible and inherently selfish beings. It would take social engineering on a Huxley-esque scale for anything approaching true communism to work.


On the second part of OP's question.... IMO it's not so much that America has a problem with communism, than with Russia. Though ideology muddled and occasionally exacerbated things, the basic conflict is one between rival superpowers. Had Russia not been communist, a rivalry between the two continent-straddling superpowers would still have happened (though perhaps not with the same intensity). The Cold War combined a long-standing fear of Marxism with simple rivalry.

[Shdo]

actually i know one place where communisem worked and that is the israeli kibbutz, which make cummunisem look like a joke, in the 50's and 60's it was more like a hive then a community.

but it work only because its part of a greater system, it wont work if it WAS the system, that means that a communist country will not work, but a communist community might.

[cornflakes]

actually i know one place where communisem worked and that is the israeli kibbutz, which make cummunisem look like a joke, in the 50's and 60's it was more like a hive then a community.

but it work only because its part of a greater system, it wont work if it WAS the system, that means that a communist country will not work, but a communist community might.
:uhuh Exactly so. Though IMO the kibbutz is more akin to Marx's first stage of society, primitive communism (hunter-gatherer bands/tribes, etc.) rather than the final, most advanced state, widespread macro-communism.

[Sora Chan]

Well I don't want to be extremely repetitive, but I agree with most of the post above. Communism is good in theory, but because of the selfishness of humans and the greed, it does not work in reality. I do however have something to say on the whole American issue, and this is entirely my opinion and I am generalizing.

The cold war, is an important factor on why communism isn't looked at too highly in America, as pointed out earlier. And like Sarvik said earlier, you don't need to be American to see the horrors committed by dictators of communist nations. I think their is another reason though. As Americans, we are used to the idea of freedom and individuality. The right to choose and the whole American Dream business. Our country is, in theory, all about moving up that social ladder. In a communist country, the idea of everyone being equal and being a member of a group takes away your individuality. To most Americans, our individuality and freedom is the most important thing. I think that's where that whole gun control battle comes into play. Yes guns are dangerous, but we have the right to own them if we choose. (sorry yes a little off topic, but I think it's sort of the same mentality) So yea, my point is, we place to much value in the individual, that is why communism does not appeal well to this country.

Haha my opinion don't hate me too much, I realize I generalized it :oops

[Shdo]

actually that make sense.

[mechaqua]

Communism is often seen as a dictatorship, This stereotype was set by Stalin, Mao. Pol Pot and others, whom established a dictatorship type regime , however Marxism in its self does not established a supreme ruler but a government system ruled by a council of workers inevitably the world will no longer need a government. However Marx never factored in the Globalization of Capitalism When Marx wrote the manifesto he believed capitalism and feudalism were dying. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were the one responsible for morphing communism to adapt to globalism the reason why the us finds communism wrong and many people tend to believe communism as a totalitarian regime. others feel that absolute equality undermines the ability to work hard you see Americans are told that hard work will get you ahead of everyone and the harder you work the greater the reward in communism everyone's equal so it doesn't matter how hard you work you will never get ahead. . Because of the way humans think (this is if Hobbes is right) communism cannot truly exists as a lifestyle or economic system however in theory if you are following it the way Marx originally intended it is good,

socialism can exist however look at Sweden and the kibbutz's in Israel Communism is socialism at its extreme end on the spectrum

[ookami]

If communism fell into the hands of a more richer or successful nation do you think that it would work or slowly destroy the nation.

[Shdo]

destroy, it cant work as the whole system, only as part of it.

[ookami]

but its like a ship in a bottle its not finished until you pul that little string and the whole ship is erected until then you slowly add bits like introducing little bits of comunism, learning how to cope withe each componant before you fully erect the government, I think that most of the governments become dictatorships because they can't cope with it, they go into comunsim to fast this si what destroys the government.

[Shdo]

its not a matter of speed, its a matter of human nature. humans reached where they are because they are adapting and take oppurtunities and dont settle with little, bigger cities, bigger temples, bigger empires.

communisem will fall again and again because its depending on the human nature and that nature that make the human race so great simply cant live like that for long.

look even on monks, there is no country of monks, they are a part of a greater whole.

communisem wont work with the current human psychy.

[emoloz]

Not fan because either way were gunna have a hierarchy. Also why should some people whos jobs are not 100% beneficial to society have the same pay as people who are.

Anyways to America I agree I don't think they really understand it and because they have seen ltke other countries it going wrong then people don't want it and leaders have to please people to a certain extent. If the cubian government could give everyone some advice on it then maybe it would be considered since its worked for the cubains. Then again communism/capitalism doesn't work for everyone. Suppose it would given an insight.

It is like people have pointed out seen as a dictorship and people don't want people telling them who they should live there lives and be capped for what they have poured there heart and soul into.

Also the America dream is poured into society be what you what earn what you can and be the best. Can't do that in capitalism rally as everyone no matter what jo you earn the same.

There is also a false stereotype on communism which is why also not just America but all capitalist states that they will go wrong and there will be a social upcry. Since were not sure on it and the past doesnt really provide much insight anymore because ti doesn;t always work we don't know.

It's basic ignorance and lack of knowledge really.

I don't think either communism or capitalism works personally but we need something more inbetween but sadly no one is prepared to give it a go because ti could lea to much both ways and might not accomidate the mass's when there used to and have grown up in a society the way it is all there lives.

[Shdo]

isnt that socialism? which work pretty well in europe.

[Spartan27]

Shdo's right, communism fails wherever it is tried, but Socialism which is different, can and does work in most western countries that try it, socialism has never taken hold in America because of various factors.

One: it is associated with Communism and thereby it's seen as unamerican and a failure.

Two: Americans for the most part are very much isolationist in their mindset, they think about the me before the we, which is why many Americans don't want social programs.

Three: Finally Americans believe in the American Dream which entails the idea that you can become a multi millionaire through hard work, and Socialism has been casted a system where this is not or is harder to achieve, this is of course not true, but people actually believe that there is no Capitalism in a Socialism system, which is not entirely true.

[witnesstheday]

For all of 2006 and till October 2007, the Chinese stock markets were on a roll. From a paltry 1,220 in December 2005, the Shanghai Composite Index multiplied 4.27 times to 6,429 by October, registering one of the most rapid rises in stock markets across the globe. During the same period, the Dow appreciated by just 32 per cent, the FTSE by 20 per cent, the Nikkei by 8.5 per cent, Hang Seng by 114 per cent and Sensex by 115 per cent.

http://www.politicsdebate.co.uk/india_china_economy.html

"Communist" China is currently in the middle of a long period of doing about 12 times better, in terms of economic growth, than the USA and the UK and it is still accelerating whilst they are falling further into the mire of poverty and future subservience to many nations and international bodies they have until now ignored and often just used as playthings.

As the link shows, China has been capable and prepared to nuke American cities since 2005.

So really one ought to ask the question "what is wrong with capitalist democracy in the USA?" and the Chinese do have a lot of research on that - one thing they say straight up is that in the USA there's a lot of guns per head - something like 10 guns per person? I don't know, but it's not hard to find out online. Half of the entire world's weaponry is American-owned. That's 300 million people with half the weapons on a planet with something a lot higher now than 6,000 million people.


Half the guns in the world are American - And America's decline can be traced to one overriding factor: a military budget that comprises nearly half of the world's military spending.

http://www.politicsdebate.co.uk/america_china_arms_race.html

[Shdo]

actually we talked about that in another thread and china isnt really communist anymore.

http://www.bleachasylum.com/showthread.php?t=4548


as for america weapons, its tru that their spending on militery is like 5 times more then the second place, but that dosnt mean they have more guns, only that they have more expensive stuff.

but again, the EU spend more money on weapons in total.

[Inevitable.Exit]

"Communist" China is currently in the middle of a long period of doing about 12 times better, in terms of economic growth, than the USA and the UK and it is still accelerating whilst they are falling further into the mire of poverty and future subservience to many nations and international bodies they have until now ignored and often just used as playthings.

As the link shows, China has been capable and prepared to nuke American cities since 2005.

So really one ought to ask the question "what is wrong with capitalist democracy in the USA?" and the Chinese do have a lot of research on that - one thing they say straight up is that in the USA there's a lot of guns per head - something like 10 guns per person? I don't know, but it's not hard to find out online. Half of the entire world's weaponry is American-owned. That's 300 million people with half the weapons on a planet with something a lot higher now than 6,000 million people.This has to be one of the most ridiculous replies in the history of the debate forums.

First: China is not truly communist as Shdo pointed out. And you are correct China, and India are currently in huge growths as world economies. The US is declining, but that is to be expected when you are funding a (IMO)ridiculous "war".

I only know basic Economics, but pretty sure every modernized country goes through a cycle of rising economic growth, followed by a period of economic decline, rinse and repeat. China, among others, just happens to be going through their growth while others (US) are going through their decline. Don't be fooled however, the US economy isn't as weak as many would hype it to be (Correct, it is down however). The UK and US subservience to whom? Certainly not China. Who is one of China's largest suppliers of food? Although the Chinese are certainly getting better at agriculture, they could in no way sustain themselves.

Nuke American cities? A nuclear attack by China on America would be terrible for both, but China, having most their population in a few HIGHLY population dense areas, would suffer much worse in a case of M.A.D. (Mutually assured destruction). But this point is moot, because the two economies depend so heavily on eachother that it would (most likely) never happen until fuel becomes scarce. ((If you would like to debate a military conflict between China and the US, which I feel the US is in much better shape to win, start another thread and I can explain why)).

What does having guns have to do with anything? Either way Capitalism is about economic type, not a government. America has a lot of weapons because they are one of the largest dealers of weaponry in the world. It's just how we make money.

Our investment in our military is due to the fact that we are THE (current) super-power in the world (a spot we are bound to relinquish in the next ~40 years). If you want to look at sheer cost, it is due to our advanced weaponry and technology.

Either way, this thread is kind of dumb. Americans don't "hate" communism. They hated the over-exaggerated form that we were fed during The Cold War. Communism, on paper, is one of the best systems ever created. But as others have pointed out it missed out on one very important thing, the human factor.

InEv.

[bradc]

It just makes me curious why everything is always pointed at China and US Debate? The world of business runs itself, not everything is always America and not everything is always China. The US economy is failing because of it's so call democracy and funding on war on other countries. Canada continues to pick up it slack to keep peace and staying out of it for most part.

No matter what government system is used, a government is still needed to look after the business and the economy; and its people. I'm sure most of everyone hates their own current government until they either have one, or kick out of the office. You still need one either way; or let the people run the system itself through business and trades.

[ookami]

I just think that america is digging a bigger and bigger hole and most people in the western reigions ofhe world get pulled down with them looking at it I would have no problem if the whole world came together as a united front against america. America is like the overwhelmingly annoying kid in your class that no one likes now your buddies Isreal, China and south korea are getting really pissed of with america and will randomly hit out, at the point one of these nations hits out russia will start to get all nostalgic mabye plan a holiday in cuba again america would be powerless. and these nations aren't even third best in the world. sorry I just like to explain thing like this kid repreasents nations. America is like the kid that is infalable. American kid: Isic newton invented gravity all the great nations in the world laugh.

[Shdo]

also i wouldnt be so impressed by a country growing economy when the little man is suffering. for example, india is a rising power, their economy is massive BUT somthing like 700 million people live in poverty. sure that mean that 300 million dont but the fact is that i preffer to live in a poorer country with a higher gdp per capita then a rich country with much more poor people.

also, this idea of a world gangup on america is stupid, there is no reason for europe to do that, they are allies under nato after all.
the african union is too busy killing himself.
the arab world is dependant on america thirst for oil.
most of asia is also depandant on buisnesses from america.
china and america will only suicide if they go head to head.
russia have greater problems from within to do such a move.


so no there wont be a gang up or united front in the world against america because its stupid. countries are working by intrests and not by mindless ideolegy.
as much as people say they are pissed at america they know that its better to have america as a superpower then china or russia.

[bradc]

People live in poor country struggle to survive as do the ones in very well developing country, who have same amount of people living in poverty. That's why business and trade routes are important to places like China and India. How high can a mighty empire go anyway? When the same problem are pretty elsewhere on the globe, or people choose to live nomads lives in vast country side than being part of the growing cities?

[ookami]

Yes there is more than enough reasons for countries to gang up on america their a loose cannon who wouldn't want to stop them. Its not stupid and idications from countries like isreal make it more likely to happen. All the countries in the world seem to be sorting themselves out standing up back on there feet and all america wants to do is oppress them I wouldn't be that bothered my country does it as well.

[Inevitable.Exit]

Yes there is more than enough reasons for countries to gang up on america their a loose cannon who wouldn't want to stop them. Its not stupid and idications from countries like isreal make it more likely to happen. All the countries in the world seem to be sorting themselves out standing up back on there feet and all america wants to do is oppress them I wouldn't be that bothered my country does it as well.

First of all, what is your country?

Secondly, Israel would be retarded to do anything that would shun America. Not only has America been their largest supplier of military weapons/technology, but Israel can rest assured that if they ever needed military assistance the USA would be there to support them, even if not with direct military involvement.

Third, how is America a loose cannon? Sure the "war" in Iraq was a bit extreme , but Afghanistan not so much so. Not exactly sure why you would even call the US loose cannons to be honest. Sorting themselves out? Again, what are you talking about? Who is sorting themselves out? Everyone seems the same to me to be honest.

Who is America oppressing?

It would be utterly stupid for countries to "gang up" on America. Shut down America for a week and see how the world economy does.

Your ignorance is blinding.

[ookami]

what you mean Iran wouldn't do anything either a country full of suicide bombers and nukes now lol. I'm from England. There are lots of different countries that want to hurt america for having wars over the way peopel think wars that are going to leave a permenant black mark on there file loook for the connection and you will find americas enemys.

[bradc]

Yes there is more than enough reasons for countries to gang up on america their a loose cannon who wouldn't want to stop them. Its not stupid and idications from countries like isreal make it more likely to happen. All the countries in the world seem to be sorting themselves out standing up back on there feet and all america wants to do is oppress them I wouldn't be that bothered my country does it as well.

No, no, no... Is their President George Bush Jr and his croonies. One person's opinion does not equal the entire planet of voices you know. Their government and their congress pretty much messed up. Do you watch the news? Any news at all?

No country is ganging up on America; they would prefer if they do business with them. But in most cases the distrust is there because their current government drove the economy into turmoil with no sign of recession, and someone else has to pick up the slack to clean the mess up. Other countries are doing what they can to turn the global economic crisis around.

[Shdo]

again, who will gang up on america?
europe depend on america as ALLIES in nato, the most they can do is not support america in future wars.

china and america depend on one another economicly so nothing will happen there.
as much as china develope in the last few years, this development still need alot of foreighn investments from the west (going against america will include the rest of the west who preffer their own)

africa have little power even as a whole, with their internal wars and corruption they are not a risk even united! they also depend on western aid and assistance only to stay in their crappy situation not to speak of going head on with america, trying to hurt america economicly (they cant really invade anything, they cant even get rid of their own rebels!) by embargo will only send them into economic decline that will ruin what little they have.

the middle east, that a funny thing, even though you got alot of hate towards america from the people the fact remain that the gulf states, egypt, saudi, jordan and turkey need america and some of them (israel and turkey) are having joint exercises with fleets once every few years.
many dont know it but the arab countries are protected by american basses even more then israel is (zero basses).
this relationship is a perfect trade relationship, one side have alot of oil and the other wants alot of oil. they will continue to work together as long as there is oil in the sand.


russia and the rest of the former soviet countries...you see, after the crush of the soviet union (communisem dosnt work, sadly) many of the outher provinces got their freedom from 'mother russia' they have no need to take out america only to replace it with russia and then slowly lose their indepandance.
russia might want such a move as to strengthen their position in the world but the fact is that russia pop is in decline, this will cause great strain on their economy and wont really allow them to go against america especially when the rest of the world (mainly the west) dont want to topple america for russia.

so what do we have left? australia? canada? japan? none of them have any intrest in doing that.

all there is actually is south america, but even there the strongest countries are pro west!

just a few weeks ago N korea gave up their nuclear program and that a sign that they too are tired of this situation of alienation from the west and america.

the only countries that actually might think of such a front are russia (with declining pop and their muscle show to the west in the last 2 years i doubt they will have much support), some south american countries (not the strongest ones so its meaningless),
iran (for their nuclear program but that a whole other thread), syria (they will preffer to side with the west, and as for economic or militery influance...they dont have much).


tell me a country and ill tell you why they wont do anything against america beside making faces.

[ookami]

well Dictators do what the want there sole opinion I mean there are countries all over the world that have been effected by americas ideas I do watch the news and anyone can tell that the american government is messed up. I mean look at vietnam the war was based on the spread of comunism the idea of equality and america killed thousands of what were mainly civlians because they disagreed with comunism. how many people would be alive in vietnam now if america didn't go to war there. Oh yeah I forgot about nato america has killed more nato troops and civilians than the taliban.

[Shdo]

dont forget that the north did attacked the south so the same can be said about them, how many people would be alive if they didnt hate a pro western southern neighbor.

after they got indepandance they went to war with another country and even had a brief war with china. like every country in asia they really dont want to see america (who wont attack vietnam again) fall only to have china take their place.

friendly fire happen even today. its a sad fact of warfare, as a ex soldier i can assure to all the readers that friendly soldiers dont have a green health bar above their head and you cant really tell who is on whose side by some magical means. friendly fire happens all the time, its the nature of war.

as for dictators, they have a special trick to them, since they only care about themselves and their reign. its pretty easy to control them, you just make sure they know that they are safe as long as they are neutral to you and dead if they are not.
dictators care only for their neck and honor and all you need to do if they step out of line is to kill that dictator and watch the generals go into a civil war.

next country.

[Inevitable.Exit]

well Dictators do what the want there sole opinion I mean there are countries all over the world that have been effected by americas ideas I do watch the news and anyone can tell that the american government is messed up. I mean look at vietnam the war was based on the spread of comunism the idea of equality and america killed thousands of what were mainly civlians because they disagreed with comunism. how many people would be alive in vietnam now if america didn't go to war there. Oh yeah I forgot about nato america has killed more nato troops and civilians than the taliban.

You seem to forget that France was in Indo-China before the United States. They also failed and killed a large number of civilians and communists.

As for your other "facts" can you please provide proof? Because I really doubt those are true.

Your argument is getting repetitious and to the point of being off-topic.

[bradc]

well Dictators do what the want there sole opinion I mean there are countries all over the world that have been effected by americas ideas I do watch the news and anyone can tell that the american government is messed up. I mean look at vietnam the war was based on the spread of comunism the idea of equality and america killed thousands of what were mainly civlians because they disagreed with comunism. how many people would be alive in vietnam now if america didn't go to war there. Oh yeah I forgot about nato america has killed more nato troops and civilians than the taliban.

Like I said before... No government system is perfect, and neither is the system itself; and someone will always be governing the place to look after its people, whether you like it or not.

China has a much more deeper and darker history before America even had civilization under its Imperialism. If you are interested in Hong Kong/PRC (Capitalism Island) I suggest to look up Opium War I and II; Hong Kong was under the British Monarchy until 1997, which it was returned to China. You can look up the Nanking Pre-War with Internal China Warfare during the ancient times that had on-going war eons ago under Three Kingdoms Period and Five Waring State Period before the Nanking Massacre with Japan Invasion even existed.

It was Communism when it was govern by Mao Zadong, but he's dead now. So is Stalin who was dictator during the World War II when he governed Spain; this generation pretty much changed now. Most countries are trying to maintain a business relation and PR without war.

[cornflakes]

Yes there is more than enough reasons for countries to gang up on america their a loose cannon who wouldn't want to stop them. Its not stupid and idications from countries like isreal make it more likely to happen. All the countries in the world seem to be sorting themselves out standing up back on there feet and all america wants to do is oppress them I wouldn't be that bothered my country does it as well.
Lol, as far as hegemons go, the US is pretty magnanimous. Nothing resembling tribute, no interfering in internal politics of nations (at least not for the vast majority of us anyways), etc.... how different would the world be if the Soviet Union had come out on top in the Cold War? What about the Third Reich? Or Napoleonic France? Or colonial Britain? Mongol Empire? Imperial Rome? Macedon under Alexander? The comparisons can be multiplied indefinitely.

You can look up the Nanking Pre-War with Internal China Warfare during the ancient times that had on-going war eons ago under Three Kingdoms Period and Five Waring State Period before the Nanking Massacre with Japan Invasion even existed.

[...]

So is Stalin who was dictator during the World War II when he governed Spain
I'm being nitpicky and off-topic, but I'd like to point out that there were seven eponymous "Warring States", not five. And Stalin was dictator in the Soviet Union, which is about a continent away from Spain. :p

[neoleonhart]

Looking at what capitalism has brought us (some are ->): unequal division of the earth's wealth to which we're all entitled (IMHO), monopolisation on several levels, sanctions for just tryin' to protect your own interests when threatened and worst of all WAR (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran in the future).

I'm not sayin that communism in itself is good or bad as i've never experienced it. but i do think some of the points that communism represents might be good in combination with capitalism. so a fusion of both capitalism and communism might be far better for the world than each of them separately.

[Shdo]

AKA socialism that is working very well for most of the world.

as for sanctions and war, they are not a product of capitalism or the west but of human nature.
actually overall capitalist countries have less wars then others (well since america is the only capitalist country and the world is full with wars before and without america then i dont really think they are the problem)

capitalism is a economic system that only apply to your own country and not somekind of imperialist dogma, and the same goes to communism.
but by their nature, communist countries need to keep giving work to their people and war times are great for this while capitalism encourage self enterprise which encourage individuals to stick their noses to other people and countries businesses.

my 2 dime.

[bradc]

Lol, as far as hegemons go, the US is pretty magnanimous. Nothing resembling tribute, no interfering in internal politics of nations (at least not for the vast majority of us anyways), etc.... how different would the world be if the Soviet Union had come out on top in the Cold War? What about the Third Reich? Or Napoleonic France? Or colonial Britain? Mongol Empire? Imperial Rome? Macedon under Alexander? The comparisons can be multiplied indefinitely.


I'm being nitpicky and off-topic, but I'd like to point out that there were seven eponymous "Warring States", not five. And Stalin was dictator in the Soviet Union, which is about a continent away from Spain. :p

Seven? They call it a Five Warring State Period because two other ones were smaller were being support for the larger rulers and vice-versa. My bad... Typing late at night it was either Italy or Russia... This world is too big :sleepy

[Sarvik]

There is no pure unrestrained capitalism in any country. All countries have more or less interventionist government(that means also more or less socialism) regulating stuff.

Idea of majority of the world ganging up aganist USA is lunacy.

[cornflakes]

Seven? They call it a Five Warring State Period because two other ones were smaller were being support for the larger rulers and vice-versa.
lol, I'm not sure we're talking about the same time period. But for the time period between about the fifth century BC to 221 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warring_States_Period), there were seven major states. Smaller states were quite numerous IIRC.

/hijack

[moonflowers]

To add to Sarvik, there never were any true communist countries out there in the first place. If you read the original Manifesto it's all about equal distribution of property and no one being in charge - no Mao Zedongs, no Stalins, no one at all. Beautiful, isn't it?

It's just that there's this sneaky little clause in there that says, "During some transitional period from previous governments to communism, someone's gotta be absolute boss." And that's what "communist" leaders have taken advantage of - to stay in power for an indefinitely long period of time, they just need to keep saying that the revolution isn't over and the country isn't fully communist yet. And who's to say when to stop? Once the big boss discovers power and likes it, he's there to stay.

And to respond to the OP - it seems like you believe that America is out of whack and going to overrun the rest of the world. That would be more likely if the Bushies were allowed to keep doing what they want, which I'm sure as heck is not going to happen come this November election.

The current mess is not because the Bushies are American, but because Bush (I can't bring himself to call him President) has been absolutely abusing the American government system of checks and balances to concentrate his power. This abuse has not just been bad for Iraq and Afghanistan but for America itself too. I am an American who really dislikes what's been going on and, like the rest of the world, can't wait until he gets his stupid ass out of the White House and out of our lives.

[Gol D. Roger]

I'm being nitpicky and off-topic, but I'd like to point out that there were seven eponymous "Warring States", not five. And Stalin was dictator in the Soviet Union, which is about a continent away from Spain. :p

Could he have meant Benito Mussolini in Italy? Other than that, I can only think of Francisco Franco, but Franco was a nationalist dictator, who was definitely not a communist. At times, he persecuted the Spanish Communist Party.

On topic, communism in its purest sense (a socioeconomic structure that promotes a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production and property) simply doesn't work. It's an idea that, to me, brings to mind a sense of the ancient past, when it was the trading of goods and services that actually mattered, as opposed to currency.

Putting the, "human nature," argument against communism aside, it's simply too difficult for the classic ideal of a communist nation to coexist with today's global economy. In placing the worth of all potential materials or services on a flat line, all products of such a nation would essentially be devalued, as it represents a mindset of insular self-sufficiency which is no longer possible in the face of modern society's need for international trade and commerce. It might have worked many years ago, when the sheer variety of things necessary for survival, and also, perhaps more importantly, quality of life was far less.

However, in this modern day and age, any developed nation needs raw materials such as fuel, metal, lumber, raw foods, textiles, etc., as well as finished products such as electronics, cars, machinery, toys, clothing, and so on, ad nauseam. The number of different things needed for a nation to be beyond the third world - profitable, modernized, and reasonably wealthy - far exceeds any single country's ability to produce.

If you were to place a fixed value on every type of job, it's a guarantee that the GDP would plummet, and in time, the nation would become destitute.

Today's economy is a global economy, perhaps the very sort of economy that men like Stalin were afraid of, because by its very nature it is antithetical to a closed-off purist communist mindset.

However, there's a reason communism still exists today. That's because looser forms of communism, or as the leadership of the People's Republic of China puts it, "Socialism with Chinese characteristics," do work. The reason that China is growing so quickly today is because the state has relaxed its control over the market to stimulate economic growth.

There are many in China, especially the younger generation of entrepreneurs who have flourished thanks to both looser economic regulations, and the boom of the technology age, who are independently wealthy. This is not something the classic view of communism allows, and the leadership of China has realized that keeping with this classic viewpoint inhibits their national growth.

So basically, pure communism doesn't work. But freer forms of communism which support a nation's growth and development, and allow it to participate and foster international trade and commerce, in fact, do work. Certainly there are still problems, but all forms of government have problems, and regardless, China's sort of capitalist-socialism seems to be quite profitable for them.

[Dopesmoker]

there is nothing wrong with communism and there never has been a true communist state in the history of our world.

true communism is basically an "end result" of sorts and no nation has ever gotten there, they simply stagnate.

[Shinrin]

I was considering making a related topic though at the opposite end I guess.

How much freedom is acceptable?

Since to much freedom can damage the society.

[Rain]

dope- well i wouldn't say there is nothing wrong with it, it isn't an efficient system at all, and it can suffer quite a bit of economic problems

Shinrin- lol, that is the million dollar question

too much freedom can be problematic

In a sense it should be you have the freedom to do antyhing that doesn't cause an actual problem or limits the freedom of another

but that would be virtually impossible to measure/enforce

[GreenBlack]

I believe the general problem with communism might be greed- but the biggest problem is that no matter how hard you work in life you'll always get what everyone else does. You can work an extremely hard or unpleasant job and deserve more than someone who works an easy job and you'll still be given the same life and pay. Everyone having the same rights is pretty much how America works, but going past that and giving everyone else the same money and lifestyles is wrong. I will not deny it is largely in part to greed- but then there are the honest people in the world who do work hard for all the money they get. Communism says that you can get a very advanced job and work very hard and be very good at it and it won't mean anything. It belittles the work effort and lowers morale- no matter how good you are at something you'll never deserve more.

[Shdo]

actually communisem say to work as much as you can and get as much as you need.
this concept is beautiful when you think about it, its pure and without greed, a society that works without a concept of greed or lazyness. the problem isnt with the system but with the people because people are greedy both in capatilisem and communisem, and there are hard working at both.
but both systems are doomed to fail, one causes corruption and abuse of power by the rulers while the other encourage the rich while forsaking the poor which will eventually cause a disaster.


the answer is at the middle, work, earn money according to your job and give some to others. socialism rules.

[bradc]

I went back in 1997 when British actually handed Hong Kong back over China; I believe female parental asked one my uncle if anything happened. And we're told everything was pretty much the same, business as usual. I went back two years ago in 2006, nothing was wrong with it. There's actually more jobs opportunities than I would say in North America, since it relies on imports and franchises rather than creating jobs for the masses, which would explain why the economy is struggling more than Asia's economy.

China pretty much create jobs in most of its business sectures; from basic trade goods, such as fabrics, textiles, toys, agriculture and so forth, even entrepreneur (your own business). It continues to grow because it provides jobs without limiting on the person's skills and education, and creativity. Where over here in North America, even on the news, immigrants who want to get a job have a tough time because they put a limit on the person's skills and education they have. The economy pretty much goes nowhere...

[Shinrin]

dope- well i wouldn't say there is nothing wrong with it, it isn't an efficient system at all, and it can suffer quite a bit of economic problems

Shinrin- lol, that is the million dollar question

too much freedom can be problematic

In a sense it should be you have the freedom to do anything that doesn't cause an actual problem or limits the freedom of another

but that would be virtually impossible to measure/enforce


To much freedom can make people Isolated and egoistic.


Not that I might suffer from that atm:rolleyes:
Do what I have to and then only do more if I want to ^^'
Truth be told I've several times picked work 1 week, free 1 month even though my pay is low I can manage it like this.

[ookami]

Well with too much freedom the laws of sociaty become easier to break and are broken more often. But freedom is limited as sonn as your born you can't leave your country with out a pass port and even then you on some government system which in retrospects limits your freedom.

[Shdo]

there should be a place in the world with no law watsoever, a closed space where noone have any control over the people there (as long as they keep it to themselves) and people chose to go there.
call it anarchystan or something.

why?why not?

[Bleu]

i agree with many of the ideas communist share. in actuality, i almost consider myself a facist even though that term has disapeared these days.

america fears communisms power. they wish to be the top dog..

leading to a near war with russe.

[cornflakes]

there should be a place in the world with no law watsoever, a closed space where noone have any control over the people there (as long as they keep it to themselves) and people chose to go there.
call it anarchystan or something.

why?why not?
lol, Anarchistan. :rotflmao True anarchy could never exist indefinitely, though. Even if the rest of the world left these people well alone (which isn't guranteed at all), some sort of hierarchy will arise: patriachs, local bosses etc, with an upscaling trend as time goes on.

[Shdo]

lol, Anarchistan. :rotflmao True anarchy could never exist indefinitely, though. Even if the rest of the world left these people well alone (which isn't guranteed at all), some sort of hierarchy will arise: patriachs, local bosses etc, with an upscaling trend as time goes on.

they are free to do that, and the peasent is free to go and kill the overlord and become a overlord himself and the minions might or might not retaliate.
anarchistan can work, a venting area for humanity sociopaths.

[cornflakes]

Then it becomes Corleonistan or Monarchistan, doesn't it? My point is that it still won't be true anarchy, where everybody follows his own lead and nobody else's.

[Shdo]

of course it is. lets say i have my gang in anarchistan, they do what i want not because so law but because they either fear me or respect me. they will follow my leadership or 'law' as long as it fit them.
when they decide to not follow me i might decide to kill them but its my decision and not some law that is forced by a judge and jury.

so are there any limitations to your will? of course there are, they are called the wills of others.

you walk in the streets of anarchistan and decide to stab someone. you can do that, but you should also expect retaliation from the dude friends or people who simply dont wants you around.

a really true freedom exist only for the top dog, only one anarchist in the world. when there are two only the will of the one who keep on standing will prevail.
this isnt a rule or monarchy, its simply the law of nature, nothing is more free then that.

you can do whatever you want but other can do that as well, and your will might be swept aside from others power just like others will be swept aside by yours.

[kiera2]

they do what i want not because so law but because they either fear me or respect me. they will follow my leadership or 'law' as long as it fit them.
The only difference is semantic. Whether the 'law' or leadership is implemented by an institution, or based on the desires of one man, it's still a law. Whether or not they call themselves a monarch or government, they still are one. True anarchy has every individual doing as they please. The laws of nature are still laws.

WRT communism, Gol D. Roger said pretty much everything.

[ookami]

With no law yea less people would break the law but thats mainly because there is no law ¬¬. most people would say america hits out because they scared of change of difference it makes a lot of sense. with the KKK and if black people could read they were killed the whole slavery thing. Theres nothing really wrong with the idealogical perspective of comunism it just wants the perfect world but that really can't happen because people look to other people for guidence and leadership making someone a leader.You see we have our parents then our teachers and then our bosses and lastly our government. You see most of us at somepoint have been guided if not I can safely say you haven't left the whom yet.its like saying everyone is unique but everyone has the same quality of being unique showing that we all show comunism by being different sharing the same quality.

[Rain]

they do what i want not because so law but because they either fear me or respect me. they will follow my leadership or 'law' as long as it fit them

The only difference is semantic. Whether the 'law' or leadership is implemented by an institution, or based on the desires of one man, it's still a law

I agree with kiera on this

the only people in society follow 'laws" is because they either fear the consequence of respect the authority of the leader

In a sense, laws in society don't even really exist, there are mearly suggestions as to follow, but should you break those, someone may take "revenge" and punsih you for your actions

a regular society and an anarchic one are really quite similar, its that in one the rules are stated and written, in an anarchic one they are just implied


lol, i wonder how it went from communism to this :XD

[Shdo]

so there is no possiability of TRUE anarchy because the moment there are more than one will or voice it is called 'laws' something like the order in chaos thing.

in that case anarchistan still works, and you force your laws\desires with your own hands, its the closest thing in human existance to anarchy which cannot exist anyway, its like a function that aspire to 0 but never reach it, only get closer and closer.



move to anarchistan, we teach our children in the most important school, life.

i wonder if true communisem can work with the leadership of somekine of AI.

[ookami]

well its the same in class people get scared of what the teacher will do if you mess about and people who mess with teachers constantly aren't scared, we got to the law thing because of the way a comunist society is goverened, with the police and millitery e.g. tibet.

[Rain]

so there is no possiability of TRUE anarchy because the moment there are more than one will or voice it is called 'laws' something like the order in chaos thing.

in that case anarchistan still works, and you force your laws\desires with your own hands, its the closest thing in human existance to anarchy which cannot exist anyway, its like a function that aspire to 0 but never reach it, only get closer and closer.



move to anarchistan, we teach our children in the most important school, life.

i wonder if true communisem can work with the leadership of somekine of AI.

well, I think true anarchy can occur as long as neither will/voice is willing to submit to the other

it neither obey the 'laws" of the other, that would be anarchy

I don't think true communsim will ever really work. In theory it works, but in practice (and yea, i know there has never been a full communistic country ever) it fails

Communism has trouble adapting to change especially to large scale events (because their system doesn't work with supply and demand, figuring out what level to produce becomes aguessing game for each object pretty much)

[ookami]

The main problem is the system of money if it was done properly the government could save a lot but the people would suffer though I would like to see footballers reaching intothere pockets to find nothing there it seems fair.

[Shdo]

here is where your argument fail, if everyone do what they want it will still cause the laws of nature to apply.
lets say there is a apple, you want it but its mine (or at least i want it as well) so i club your head with a stone and leave you there.

now you wanted to do something and i wanted to do something, our wills collided, you are dead, laws of nature.

when no1 is willing to submit it only mean that one voice\will will silence the other, if not by laws than by a fist of self rightous fury.

[ookami]

hehe this is where you argument fails the laws of nature have nothing to do with the law of a government, the laws of nature include science, gravity and plantlife not murder, theft and rape.

[Shdo]

actually they do include rape and murder, its called do what you want and a living creature other than humans are also capable of those acts.
what is law? its the will power of some taking the form of a rule of conduct. how is it different then a cheetah males forcing their will on a female? at the essence its the same.

[ookami]

Then a mating season is what exactly ¬¬.

[Shdo]

Then a mating season is what exactly ¬¬.

a rule, a law of some sorts that is inforced by biology.

[ookami]

so if a mating season is a law inforced by biology its not really against the laws of nature is it. where as humans are more developed but even then we are still ment to have sex at a female body temprature drop.

[Shdo]

of course its not against the laws of nature, but laws of natures are laws just like the laws of the universe and the laws of men.
everything follows somekind of laws, even a blackhole have a formula.

[ookami]

ermm back to comunism I wonder if people are scared countrys like russia and china will achieve true comunism?

[Shdo]

what is there to be scared of? if they want to be communist, democratic or dictatorship dosnt really effect the rest of us.

[ookami]

well if its a dictatorship and theres a whole mess of nuclear bombs in the mix it can effect everyone.

[Shdo]

not really, a dictatorship support one ruler who wants to live as long as possiable and a nuclear war dosnt help him much.
just because a country is a dictatorship dosnt mean that its unstable or dangerous only mean to its people.

[Rain]

People are terrified that a country might become communist/stay communist and whatnot, mostly due to not knowing what communism itself is

look back to the red scare, there was an epic fear of communism

but there is nothing really to be afraid of, dictatorships, communistic societies and democracy can all have the same realtionships to other countries, no inherent difference

Shdo- its not even necesarily mean to its people (almost 100% of the time im sure it becomes that way)

[Shdo]

exactly, a dictatorship means a way of govrening your people and dosnt really mean anything else.

a democracy have the same chances to be dangerous.
same with communisem.

[ookami]

well its obvious to bring this up but China the human rights issues in China are really bad mainly because there are non its quite similar to Iraq. I mean comunism does exsist in one place thats heaven who would say theres anything wrong with heaven or a heaven.

[Babbo]

exactly, a dictatorship means a way of govrening your people and dosnt really mean anything else.

a democracy have the same chances to be dangerous.
same with communisem.


Dictatorships are only stable until the next coup. They tend to place too much power into too few hands. Democracies can be every bit as dangerous but tend to be less able to start major conflicts, it takes something big for the majority of democracies to do so. Communist states historically have tended to end up as little more than a dictatorship of some type.

[cornflakes]

well its obvious to bring this up but China the human rights issues in China are really bad mainly because there are non its quite similar to Iraq. I mean comunism does exsist in one place thats heaven who would say theres anything wrong with heaven or a heaven.
Heaven isn't a communism, it's a theocracy, albeit a happy theocracy-- "I am your Lord God because. Now go and gorge yourselves on ambrosia and manna dew."

[ookami]

They Idea of comunism in heaven is that no human is considered better than any other human.

[Shdo]

that isnt communism.
communism means that everyone work as much as they can and get what they need.
in heaven you just get what you want, its not communisem, its utopia.

[Babbo]

that isnt communism.
communism means that everyone work as much as they can and get what they need.
in heaven you just get what you want, its not communisem, its utopia.

lol. You do realize that communism is commonly characterized as Utopian don't you? A classless society with no government that shares everything? Come on now.

[Shdo]

its close, but its not it, since you still need to work as much as you can.

that is where ookami idea that heaven is communist is lacking.

[Kolbertt]

OK - Before this gets out of control -

Bradc - If you want to link China to Communism, feel free to do it IN TOPIC. China's classic literature, it's link with greece, etc- don't fit here.

No. Simply No.

You are being stubborn over something. You cannot use Journey to the west in a conversation about Communism when Communism didn't even EXIST at that time. Hell, there were almost 400 years between a thing and the other. That seems off topic enough for me

If you want Wikipedia links, I'd try something like this: Maoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism) instead of just linking the first page that I can come across - Reading those pages first is also nice.

Though we DO support free-speech, you are taking it to a whole new level, taking seriousness out of the conversation. One thing is the Fan Club section, where you can find whatever interpretation you want to anything, but in the debate section, there are facts, real events, and real consequences.

[Babbo]

No. Simply No.

You are being stubborn over something. You cannot use Journey to the west in a conversation about Communism when Communism didn't even EXIST at that time. Hell, there were almost 400 years between a thing and the other. That seems off topic enough for me

If you want Wikipedia links, I'd try something like this: Maoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism) instead of just linking the first page that I can come across - Reading those pages first is also nice.

Though we DO support free-speech, you are taking it to a whole new level, taking seriousness out of the conversation. One thing is the Fan Club section, where you can find whatever interpretation you want to anything, but in the debate section, there are facts, real events, and real consequences.

Not even. This is a discussion about why there is such a negative view of communism with a focus on the US perspective on the question. At best he can discuss how the Chinese brand of communism has affected this opinion of communism. Even then, discussing Chinese history is pretty limited since it has to be discussed within the lense of the topic at hand.

[Kolbertt]

Ok - As you can all see, I've cleaned this whole thread.

From this moment on, every post not related to the topic will be deleted.

[ookami]

The Americans had the Idea that comunism was like a tooth infection, if you don't nip it in the bud it spreads to the next tooth then the next tooth and the pattern continues. But communism is an idea and ideas can't be stopped. There is still a village in Russia that is still loyal to the soviet union and still live with comunist values and have comunist schools. The difference is .... it works because its a village its small but when you try to introduce it to a big country its chaos, so smaller countries in theory have the best chance to become fully comunist.

[cornflakes]

The actual comparisons used were salami and dominoes, I believe-- "salami" because of how you can carve away at it slice by small slice, and "dominoes" because... self-explanatory, I guess.

"Communism" works in a small-scale context and as part of a larger, capitalist system, like the kibbutz in Israel (as Shdo already mentioned). IMO pure communism on a national, international scale is a pipe dream and doesn't work at all.

[Aizen]

I haven't lived in communism but Albania was under communism until 1990 so my parents have. Basically, communism is a very boring life. Every house is the same, most people's clothes are the same, people are usually equally rich. However, there are many drawbacks... you might get imprisoned for whining to other people about this. My parents have known people who got arrested simply for whining about the long lines at the grocery store. You can't really write books if you won't praise the communism and the Party in your books.
The positive things out of communism are that no one actually starves for food, almost no crime rate and people ARE happy as long as they're not aware how much better life is outside.

If I was to chose whether to have communism in my country or not, I'd say no.

[ookami]

well thats clearly agaisnt the UDRH (Universil Declareation of Human Rights) it does break a few acts.

[mechaqua]

There are several fundamental reasons why Americans have a problem with communism, however one constant thing i hear a lot from my fellow students is that communism is a dictatorship, true Marxist communism isn't actually a totalitarian dictatorship Marx in the Communist manifesto Marx does not create a dictatorship in fact he says eventually government will not be needed because the system will work its self out unitl that an ELECTED cuncil of the workers will make desicions. The Economic aspects of communism are better expressed in Capital volumes I and II (too be fair i haven't quite read it all its really long, and a little boring, if your not in the mood) Communism in theory is fine, but as far as human nature goes, communism in the true utopian marx sense cannot exsist as long as humans are human.

Communism also gets a bad rep beaciuse Stalin and Mao, established totaltarian regimes, the truth is The USSR, was founded under bolshvism, (A varation of Marxism to counter the globalzation of captailism something Marx failed to realize) and China well Mao essentailly took a shotgun put a hodgepoge of ideas realting to marxism shot them out of the gun then attempted to pass off the splatter as true Marxism

all above was to point out that americans associate communism with totaltarism, and according to Marx a communist society is not a totaltarian society.

[bradc]

China is still under communism, it's two capitalism and socialism ports are located in Guangzou and Hong Kong. Hong Kong being an open society with wider range of freedom, and multicultural that it feels like the entire world for such a little region and its people are different from those who are in Mainland China. Most of the cashflow are from Hong Kong and Guangzou; Macau would be the Las Vegas of China.

Mainland China are still adapting to change of cultural lifestyle, it still lacks regulation and law due the drawbacks and being stuck in time; something simple as a crossroad for pedestrian would feel like playing Leap Frog crossing the wide street because drivers there don't stop, and not a lot of street lights for the most part. But believe me, they are changing, it still takes time. Not to mention they don't have much of a lifestyle they wake up at 6 AM and sleep at 6 PM because there's not much to do in Capital City of Beijing.

There are still places one is not allow to speak out sensitive issues because well you have 1.3 billion people and it can get chaotic and out of hand.


:cookie I wouldn't be able to talk to you people if I wasn't in Hong Kong

[cornflakes]

I really didn't want to be an asshole, but I just had to respond to your post.

China is still under communism, it's two capitalism and socialism ports are located in Guangzou and Hong Kong. Hong Kong being an open society with wider range of freedom, and multicultural that it feels like the entire world for such a little region and its people are different from those who are in Mainland China. Most of the cashflow are from Hong Kong and Guangzou; Macau would be the Las Vegas of China.
No. NO. Obviously such highly capitalist, commercial port cities such as Shanghai, Fuzhou, Dalian, Hangzhou etc. slipped your mind, right?


Not to mention they don't have much of a lifestyle they wake up at 6 AM and sleep at 6 PM because there's not much to do in Capital City of Beijing.
Have you been to Beijing?

I have, and I can assure you that no one goes to sleep at 6PM in Beijing.



Feel free to piss on your own self-respect, but please, PLEASE don't bring China and/or the Chinese down with you.

[Kiara]

The main reason why America has such a problem with communism is that some of us are very ignorant of what it actually is. And for that matter, some of us don't really understand why socialism is either. Now from what I understand, and please correct if I am wrong, socialism is basically the government controlling the economy, but it still allows for democratic processes. Like voting for elected officials and such.

Communism (again, this is from what I have read on my own independently and what I have been taught in school, so if I am 360 degrees off the chart, let me know) is a more extreme form of socialism. The government controls just about everything.

Now, the reason why American's don't like it goes WAY back to Stalin after WW2. And as much as I would love to bore you with every single detail that would take up about twenty pages. Simply put- Stalin and Roosevelt never really liked each other, even when they were allies during WW2. They just had a common enemy- Hitler. After that, Russia and the US got very suspicious of one other and the US was determined to stop Russia from getting too powerful. And thus, to gain the support the American public, the government promoted it as bad and horrifying. This was basically the Cold War, which is part of the reason America is afraid of communism.

Other and more scuttle reason- communism goes against what America was founded on to begin with. Because I do not understand as much as someone else, the moralistic nature of communism is not really familiar to me. I understand that the idea is to make everyone have equal income, no matter what job you may have. Because I am an American, I've been raised to believe that if you work hard and if you are motivated, then good fortunate will come to you. And while income is a small perk of that good fortunate, where's the incentive?

Where's the motive if everyone is equal?

Capitalism is not prefect- nothing is. During the Reform Era and the 1930's, we had to fix our economy by adding socialism ideas. Public schooling, from what I know, is a idea that comes from socialism. And despite it's flaws, I believe in it. I believe in America's system.

I am sorry for grammar errors, I am half asleep but I couldn't resist writing something...

And if I did get anything wrong, please tell me. I love hearing aspects from other people...and this thread was really insightful!

[Babbo]

The main reason why America has such a problem with communism is that some of us are very ignorant of what it actually is. And for that matter, some of us don't really understand why socialism is either. Now from what I understand, and please correct if I am wrong, socialism is basically the government controlling the economy, but it still allows for democratic processes. Like voting for elected officials and such.

Communism (again, this is from what I have read on my own independently and what I have been taught in school, so if I am 360 degrees off the chart, let me know) is a more extreme form of socialism. The government controls just about everything.

While babbo only has a basic understanding he can say for sure that Socialism is not a form of communism. It's more of an intermediary step before the eventual end of governement and the creation of an equal society (so ya, you were a bit of a ways off the chart).


Now, the reason why American's don't like it goes WAY back to Stalin after WW2. And as much as I would love to bore you with every single detail that would take up about twenty pages. Simply put- Stalin and Roosevelt never really liked each other, even when they were allies during WW2. They just had a common enemy- Hitler. After that, Russia and the US got very suspicious of one other and the US was determined to stop Russia from getting too powerful. And thus, to gain the support the American public, the government promoted it as bad and horrifying. This was basically the Cold War, which is part of the reason America is afraid of communism.

It goes quite a bit farther back then that. The first red scare was in the twenties for instance. Along with other western countries, America also intervened in the november (or was it october?) revolution.


Other and more scuttle reason- communism goes against what America was founded on to begin with. Because I do not understand as much as someone else, the moralistic nature of communism is not really familiar to me. I understand that the idea is to make everyone have equal income, no matter what job you may have. Because I am an American, I've been raised to believe that if you work hard and if you are motivated, then good fortunate will come to you. And while income is a small perk of that good fortunate, where's the incentive?

Can't disagree, but right now Babbo would have to say that simple fact that the soviet union failed so drasticially along with the ingrained fear from the cold war that really has created the current attitudes towards the socialism ans communism. The incentive? No one would die from starvation, no one would lack healthcare, no one would be unable to go to school... Babbo can go on and on here. The problem is that people in general want to live more than comfortably.

When you think about it, it's kind of pathetic; the people that would benefit the most from it are some of the most fearful. They want the possbility that they will be rich to be out there. It's one of the same exact reasons (along with a percieved need to be on top of someone in the social pyrimad) that poor white southerners supported slavery. They would most likely never own a slave ever, but just the simple fact that they would at least have a chance at it was enough.

Where's the motive if everyone is equal?

Capitalism is not prefect- nothing is. During the Reform Era and the 1930's, we had to fix our economy by adding socialism ideas. Public schooling, from what I know, is a idea that comes from socialism. And despite it's flaws, I believe in it. I believe in America's system.

I am sorry for grammar errors, I am half asleep but I couldn't resist writing something...

And if I did get anything wrong, please tell me. I love hearing aspects from other people...and this thread was really insightful!
Yup, which is why it was so funny to see people worried about McCain taking their social security away and at the same time scared by the "obama's a socialist" argument >.>

[cornflakes]

Along with other western countries, America also intervened in the november (or was it october?) revolution.
As I understand it, it depends on which calender you use. If you use the Julian calender like Russia did back then, it's October. If you use the Gregorian calender that the rest of the world uses, it's November. :learn


The incentive? No one would die from starvation, no one would lack healthcare, no one would be unable to go to school... Babbo can go on and on here. The problem is that people in general want to live more than comfortably.
I think Kiara meant incentive on a personal scale-- why work harder if you're just going to receive exactly the same portion as the next man, regardless of whether he has worked as hard as you have?

[bradc]

I really didn't want to be an asshole, but I just had to respond to your post.


No. NO. Obviously such highly capitalist, commercial port cities such as Shanghai, Fuzhou, Dalian, Hangzhou etc. slipped your mind, right?



Have you been to Beijing?

I have, and I can assure you that no one goes to sleep at 6PM in Beijing.



Feel free to piss on your own self-respect, but please, PLEASE don't bring China and/or the Chinese down with you.

Beijing, and Shanghai are inner-part of China. Is still controlled by the government.

I am born from Hong Kong region part of China, by the way.

Hong Kong is different because is the most cultural region part of China, where most foreigner think Hong Kong is just another country. Most business are done with inner-parts of China through Hong Kong and Macau are Special Administrative Region (SARs). Is a whole different system under the two government system with both socialism and capitalism combined; it's a open society.

And Cantonese Dialect is widely spoken in Hong Kong and I am Chinese by the way, you wouldn't want to drag the whole country down now? :fu

[cornflakes]

I am born from Hong Kong region part of China, by the way.

Hong Kong is different because is the most cultural region part of China, where most foreigner think Hong Kong is just another country. Most business are done with inner-parts of China through Hong Kong and Macau are Special Administrative Region (SARs). Is a whole different system under the two government system with both socialism and capitalism combined; it's a open society.
Eh, nothing against Hong Kong, it's one of my favourite cities personally. But that doesn't mean the rest of China is stuck in the 15th century like you portray.



Beijing, and Shanghai are inner-part of China. Is still controlled by the government.
So? :confused: Does that make Shanghai not a metropolitan city? Friend, please actually go to Shanghai before making such a sweeping dismissal. It makes you appear ignorant.

http://alex-duncan.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/shanghai.jpg
Rather bright for a city that goes to sleep at six, don't you think? :fu



/offtopic

[Babbo]

As I understand it, it depends on which calender you use. If you use the Julian calender like Russia did back then, it's October. If you use the Gregorian calender that the rest of the world uses, it's November. :learn



I think Kiara meant incentive on a personal scale-- why work harder if you're just going to receive exactly the same portion as the next man, regardless of whether he has worked as hard as you have?


Babbo knows. He was answering that way to attack that idea of personal incentive and the possibility of becoming rich; it's so bloody greedy. Along with guns and religion it's prolly one of the most annoying things that americans cling to. Not sure if babbo would agree with much of what the American Socialist party proposes, but the idea of comfortable income (think they set it somewhere around thirty something thousand) is one that makes a certain amount of sense, at least in so much as being comfortable (ie living) should be more important than being rich.