Bankai, arrancars, shinigami, Hitsugaya.

[ezxx]

I think the title might be confusing, but i'll let you know right now that the main point of this write up is about proving Hitsugaya's strength as an average captain, and not just a low level one.

It's generally accepted that he's the weakest captain and that to some degree, has merit, but at the same time it doesn't. You know why? Because we have not seen any other captain face an arrancar. I'll try to prove my point using several characters.


Gillians(eg: the first menos to appear): Are said to be dealt with vice captain(20%) level and above. Ichigo severely wounded a menos and sent it back to HM. He was clearly vice captain level. However, if an arrancar comes, it would be to safe to assume that it at least has a 5x boost in power, thus putting it at the level of a vice captain at full power;

Take Grand Fisher for example: It was a hollow not quite a menos, yet when arrancaraized clearly had captain level reiatsu. Now take a gillian menos, which definetely had much more power than grand fisher, and we get a captain level gillian arrancar.

To put it this way:

Restricted vice captain = 1/2 times stronger than a gillian
Restricted captain = 1.5 times more powerful than a gillian
Unrestricted captain = Unreleased Gillian(approximately 7 times stronger than a gillian)
Released gillian = now since a released form of an arrancar hasn't been defined, i'll presume it's at least 2x(there never seemed to be such huge power gaps between an unreleased and released state, yes even Edurado got owned by Ikkaku once Ikkaku went bankai, even though he let his own reiatsu go low first)

So going by that:

restricted(as well as unreleased) Hitsugaya would be about at least 5x weaker than an unreleased arrancar

A restricted bankai Hitsugaya would be just about equal to an unreleased arrancar

Released Arrancar would be twice as powerful as a restricted bankai Hitsugaya.

Now comes the limit raising.

since it's a 5x boost, it would make Hitsugaya about 2x stronger. Now of course this type of thinking can't be applied for every character(and probably has flaws, since I wrote this up kinda fast) but it at least gives us a framework of how powerful Hitsugaya really is.

So then comes the question just how powerful are the espada? If we go by Rukia's ability to keep up with an unreleased aaroniro and surviving an attack to eventually killing a released one, the difference isn't as much as we've been lead to believe. However, there's also been Yami and Doledoni's canceling out of captain level shikai's.

Therefore, I'd say unreleased espadas 10 through 8 are unrestricted captain level(shikai included) or a little bit stronger. Then if we take Grimmjow, it can be determined that 5 through 7 are slightly stronger than a bankai level captain's weakest attacks(a black GT from Ichigo when he doesn't say the name or when his hollow is getting in the way would be an example of this). --Why would I say they're bankai level? We'll they're ajuchas, so naturally they'd have a larger power set, and it would make sense for them to already be in a "Bankai" form in an unreleased state.-- However, just because they are captain level, they are stronger slightly stronger than captain level(I'd say at least .5 times stronger) and are not immune to attacks, and might even receive fatal wounds from well prepared or placed attacks(such is the case with Hitsugaya and luppi.)

Now what the hell did you read all that for?(if you really did :nuts)

It's to bring out my main point: Hitsugaya is at the very least good enough to take on an unreleased espada 7, and if i'm at least half-way correct, strong enough to take on 6(5 would be pushing it :>) As for the other captains, I have no idea. Kuchihki Byakuya and Zaraki Kenpachi should theoritecally be good enough to take on Grimmjow Jaggerjaques, at least his unreleased form. I didn't exactly re-read this and correct any mistakes or see if I missed anything. I hope it made sense and thanks for reading to those that did.


edit: I believe this write up should also point out or at least be a reason as to why the captains still have a chance even though the power scaling seems to favor only the vaizards and espada

[Beee]

hmmm... wow I actually read all this and didn't really get much out of it, so I'll talk mostly about your main point lol, to which I could agree ;)

[Primera Espada]

There is a fundamental flaw in your plan.

First of all, we are informed that there are a variety of different hollow types, so the assumption that grand fisher, through the arrancar process, became so much stronger is a little bit of a stretch. We see a clear indication that Grand Fisher was a very powerful hollow (having eaten several soul reapers) we also know that he became an arrancar right after losing to Ichigo. We also know that for the next couple of months... he went by completely unaccounted for, until Aizen got him, used the hou gyoku on him, and we saw what happened then. FURTHER we see no actual display of his power, cause Isshin waxes him. We just see he gets big, is all.

So you can't use that to extrapolate your definition of growth.

FURTHERMORE, Menos Grande Gillians are easily handled by Vice Captains, yes, but they are also rather unintelligent. Becoming an arrancar very clearly allows you to regain intelligence (the smartest arrancar is only espada #8 afterall) which makes sense, given what ripping the mask off entails. All of a sudden you have the power of a menos grande wrapped up in the form of an intelligent person. That can make for trouble (as Histugaya discovered) especially because now they are fast as well.

The Gillians which Hitsugaya's team fought showed no increased power from regular gillians. They just showed the ability to use that power effectively and intelligently, making them very difficult to beat.

Also, we see that after having their limiters released, bankai hitsugaya still managed to get knocked silly by Luppi (an ajuuca) and had to resort to utilizing his ability, and his environment to his advantage, biding his time so he could use a particularly effective attack...

that didn't kill him.

Also keep in mind that Unlimited Shikai Histugaya was COMPLETELY ineffective against Yammy, the weakest Espada. If Histugaya was a mid level captain, this would mean that generally any captain that was below him in terms of strength (which, out of 10, would likely be at least 3, if not 4, if he's truly mid-level) would be completely useless against any of the espada.

However then we see Shikai renji be effective in damaging Szayel IN HUECO MUNDO (where they have an increase of power) and Renji's shikai isn't even a special attack (Like a getsuga tenshou, or Hitsu's ice dragon) which does extra powerful damage than normal. It was just him swinging as hard as he could.

This clearly indicates that Renji is stronger than Histugaya. Histugaya, however, is more skillful, and has more useful abilities, which means he can win more fights.

Honestly, the fights that you use as examples to Histugaya's power, in relation to arrancars and espadas prove that Histugaya is a low level Captain.

A good way to look at it is to throw arrancarization power boosts out the window. Histugaya explained that Ajuuca's can be a match for captains, and here we see the espada comprising of ajuucas, who are captain class opponents. Only one (Ulquiorra) has demonstrated power above average captain class (though still not above yamamoto, Aizen, Shunsui, Ukitake, Urahara) Granted that means there are 3 more stronger than him, but that's besides the point. This means the majority of ajuucas are weaker than the strong captains, even after becoming arrancar.

Becoming an arrancar allows a hollow to regain intelligence, mobility, reserve power, become a smaller target, and learn new abilities and techniques that were otherwise impossible for them to learn. This makes them MUCH deadlier. Just not stronger.

[Surreal]

I think the title might be confusing, but i'll let you know right now that the main point of this write up is about proving Hitsugaya's strength as an average captain, and not just a low level one.

I would agree that he isn't so weak as people made him out to be, but out of all the captains he has been portrayed as one of the weakest, him and Komamura are the prime candidates for the title of weakest.

Other captains have been more impressive so far and almost every single one of them has shown a greater degree of power and/or ability then Hitsugaya.

If you place him in the mid tier...who should be the lower tier then? Kenpachi? Soi Fong? Mayuri? Reiatsu monster, speed freak and a guy with a broken bankai? Who is that lower tier?

The thing is, Kishi clearly didn't intend to make Hitsugaya look weak. Otherwise he wouldn't have made him out as a prodigy with such a strong zanpakotou. But he still is a lower tier captain due to his "young age" and inexperience.

I like him tho, he is funny.
"I will kill you Aizen!1111! *stab* lulz fag" was a golden moment for me.

[Primera Espada]

That's the thing, the fact that he IS a captain, a genius, a KID is what makes him lower tier.

He's the most recent captain appointee, that along should make you think he's the weakest. He's also the youngest, meaning he has the most to learn. He also has more room to GROW.

By the time he's byakuya's age he'll probably be able to handle him with one hand tied behind his back.

But if we had to rank tiers I'd say Tousen is in the bottom tier (it makes sense if the Aizen/Gin/Tousen trio is Top/Middle/Bottom) I think Komamura is at the top of the bottom tier (plenty of brute strength, but prolly less reiatsu than others) Mayuri (who can easily afford to be slower/weaker than everyone else, cause he's smarter than everyone else, and has smart abilities). I mean, seriously, could you see Histugaya beating all 3 of them? Komamura's bankai would be amazingly difficult for Histu to fight against, he'd have to try and freeze the whole thing. Histugaya can very quickly be taken down by Mayuri's nerve deadening. Tousen? If he got caught in Tousen's bankai, it's all over.

Is there seriously any captain that you could compare hitsu to and say "yah, he could beat him, no problem!" I very much doubt it.

But that's okay, as the youngest, most inexperience captain being able to fight espada means that soul society is still in good shape. Histugaya is still stronger than any vice captain (except for Renji) and as time goes by, Histu will likely obtain the sort of reverance that Byakuya has, perhaps even Ukitake.

But for now, he's not there. Why do you think he gets so much screentime ;)

[Surreal]

But that's okay, as the youngest, most inexperience captain being able to fight espada means that soul society is still in good shape. Histugaya is still stronger than any vice captain (except for Renji) and as time goes by, Histu will likely obtain the sort of reverance that Byakuya has, perhaps even Ukitake.

I don't think he would have such an easy time beating banaki Ikkaku either.
He will grow more powerful, but that doesn't have to mean that he will outclass Byakuya for example. The older the captains get, the more experienced (powerful?) they become. And Hitsugaya hasn't shown a great degree of raw power, so even tho he still has room to grow, his potential isn't on par with, let's say, Ichigo or even Ishida with his quincy powers.

And there wont be any time for him to grow stronger if he gets Aizen'd again.

[Primera Espada]

I meant he would outclass what byakuya is NOW, not what byakuya would be by the time he gets to the level byakuya is currently at.

And I doubt he'll even get a shot at aizen again. Kubo LOVES playing up rematches that never occur (Histu/Gin, Histu/Aizen, Hitsu/Yammy, Hitsu/Luppi, Ichigo/Grand Fisher, Renji/Byakuya, the list goes on)

[ezxx]

There is a fundamental flaw in your plan.

First of all, we are informed that there are a variety of different hollow types, so the assumption that grand fisher, through the arrancar process, became so much stronger is a little bit of a stretch. We see a clear indication that Grand Fisher was a very powerful hollow (having eaten several soul reapers) we also know that he became an arrancar right after losing to Ichigo. We also know that for the next couple of months... he went by completely unaccounted for, until Aizen got him, used the hou gyoku on him, and we saw what happened then. FURTHER we see no actual display of his power, cause Isshin waxes him. We just see he gets big, is all.
Hrm I don't know these different type of hollows you speak of save for the ones shown(a regular hollow and the menos class). Grand Fisher is just a wiser, older hollow but by no means was he near the level of a gillian nor near the level of a restricted vice captain. In fact he even suggests that he wins because he uses a shinigami's weakness against it. Yes, he did become an arrancar when removing his mask and presumably gaining his zanpaktou; HOWEVER, there is no evidence(unless I missed some page somewhere) that suggest he was ever in contact with Aizen; heck even if he was hougyoku'd, because he's so large, he's weaker than any of the gillians that showed up later on(more humanoid apperance = more powerful.) To be honest, I don't see how you can't come up with the conclusion that he became captain level because of hybridization. He was no where near the level of a captain pre hybridization, nor did he have a zanpaktou and his reiatsu was a high seated officer level at best. And a question to you: If he was already an arrancar, how could aizen hybridize him once more?


FURTHERMORE, Menos Grande Gillians are easily handled by Vice Captains, yes, but they are also rather unintelligent. Becoming an arrancar very clearly allows you to regain intelligence (the smartest arrancar is only espada #8 afterall) which makes sense, given what ripping the mask off entails. All of a sudden you have the power of a menos grande wrapped up in the form of an intelligent person. That can make for trouble (as Histugaya discovered) especially because now they are fast as well.

The Gillians which Hitsugaya's team fought showed no increased power from regular gillians. They just showed the ability to use that power effectively and intelligently, making them very difficult to beat.
So what you're basically saying is they gained no powers from being hybrid...i.e sonido, hiero, releasing and most of all a zanpaktou. I think you're mistaken on this.


Also, we see that after having their limiters released, bankai hitsugaya still managed to get knocked silly by Luppi (an ajuuca) and had to resort to utilizing his ability, and his environment to his advantage, biding his time so he could use a particularly effective attack...
Yes he got knocked silly by luppi, but also recall he didn't die and that Luppi was released. Of course he had to resort to his ability, it's his main attack that would work on an opponent of that level. Why not use the strongest and most effective attack instead of spaming weaker attacks that wouldn't do much damage and had Luppi on the verge of death(saved by negation)? I don't see how this is a point against Hitsugaya.


Also keep in mind that Unlimited Shikai Histugaya was COMPLETELY ineffective against Yammy, the weakest Espada. If Histugaya was a mid level captain, this would mean that generally any captain that was below him in terms of strength (which, out of 10, would likely be at least 3, if not 4, if he's truly mid-level) would be completely useless against any of the espada.

Yes, and what exactly does it mean that his shikai had no affect on an espada? It just means he's in the same league as Ichigo(who is clearly byakuya level in shikai) and had no affect on a privion espada. What would you rank byakuya, and then what would you rank zaraki kenpachi, and then finally Ichigo? I'd say they're all around mid level, and it's been shown this:

Shikai Ichigo = restricted kenpachi
Shikai Ichigo w/ GT >= Byakuya's shikai
Shikai Komamura <= restricted Kenpachi

What i'm trying to say is: Shikai level attacks(excluding Yamamoto's) are generally ineffective against ajucha espadas(save for Syzael who considers himself weak, but even so Syzael didn't suffer much damage from Renji's shikai, if at all)


However then we see Shikai renji be effective in damaging Szayel IN HUECO MUNDO (where they have an increase of power) and Renji's shikai isn't even a special attack (Like a getsuga tenshou, or Hitsu's ice dragon) which does extra powerful damage than normal. It was just him swinging as hard as he could.

This clearly indicates that Renji is stronger than Histugaya. Histugaya, however, is more skillful, and has more useful abilities, which means he can win more fights.

Honestly, the fights that you use as examples to Histugaya's power, in relation to arrancars and espadas prove that Histugaya is a low level Captain.

A good way to look at it is to throw arrancarization power boosts out the window. Histugaya explained that Ajuuca's can be a match for captains, and here we see the espada comprising of ajuucas, who are captain class opponents. Only one (Ulquiorra) has demonstrated power above average captain class (though still not above yamamoto, Aizen, Shunsui, Ukitake, Urahara) Granted that means there are 3 more stronger than him, but that's besides the point. This means the majority of ajuucas are weaker than the strong captains, even after becoming arrancar.

Becoming an arrancar allows a hollow to regain intelligence, mobility, reserve power, become a smaller target, and learn new abilities and techniques that were otherwise impossible for them to learn. This makes them MUCH deadlier. Just not stronger.


1. Ichigo's shikai doesn't have a special power, it's just his reiatsu being shot out at an opponent; Renji's shikai allows for him to use more blunt force via channeling more reiatsu into it; Hitsugaya's does basically the same as Ichigo's, but freezes because of the nature of his zanpaktou.
2. If you're saying Renji > Hitsugaya because Hitsugaya's shikai only froze parts of Yami's arms, then you're saying Renji > shikai Ichigo because his GT got canceled out.
3. Yes the ajuchas are a match for the captains but does he ever say a restricted captain can take on a gillian class easily? I don't believe so. And also, once he was at full power, the gap between them was indicated RIGHT away, with the instant freezing of Shawlong's arm just from being near Hitsugaya.
4. Then what do you consider Grimmjow who is fighting evenly, if not completely dominating at times, a bankai opponent who defeated two captains already?
5. Come on, are you seriously going to say gaining new abilities indicates no rise in strength? Do you remember what Aizen said? A shinigami surpasses it's limits via becoming a hollow, and the vice versa for the hollows; going by that every arrancar is at least .1 times more powerful than before. And i don't understand how they can become more deadlier if they're not any more powerful at all.

i hope i responded to all of your points ;o

@ Surreal:

To be honest, I can't say who is the lowest ranked captain. It just doesn't work that way. The only thing I can say for sure is that Yamamoto, ukitake and shunsui are the strongest, soi fon the fastest, Byakuya the most popular. My pov is that most captains are on equal footing when it comes to reiatsu simply because they each have bankai or in Kenpachi's case, reiatsu at close to the level of bankai. However, what gives captains advantage over each other is the type of bankai they have. That's why I say he's just an average captain

[Air]

Is there seriously any captain that you could compare hitsu to and say "yah, he could beat him, no problem!" I very much doubt it.
Yeah, this is the answer.

To say Shiro-chan is mid-tier, we must find 3 or 4 other Captains below him..
And that's not easy.

[Geta Boshi]

Just a reminder Toshiro is not a Kid he is a loli shota . And Toshiro is growing as a Taicho

Actually no Rukia joined the academy 50 years back . Rukia Renji Momo Kira are batch mates . In the flashback Momo is shown interacting with Toshiro (watermelon) . That happened 40-50 years back . He can be best described in anime terminology as Loli-Shota (like Honey Sempai from Ouran host Club).

[Primera Espada]

Wow
I'm going to have to break this down, there's so many errors.

Hrm I don't know these different type of hollows you speak of save for the ones shown(a regular hollow and the menos class).
Hollow, Huge Hollow, Menos Grande, then we also see there's the hollow guardian in Hueco Mundo. I think there was one or two more, but I've forgotten. Huge hollows were the giant hollows that faced Renji, Kira, and etc. (perhaps you didn't get to read the mini chapter that was in, fair enough)

Grand Fisher is just a wiser, older hollow but by no means was he near the level of a gillian nor near the level of a restricted vice captain. In fact he even suggests that he wins because he uses a shinigami's weakness against it.


The more shinigami a hollow eats, the stronger it becomes. You can't say he's killed several shinigami, but isn't a powerful hollow. He is by definition if he killed them, and he is MORESO because he eats them.

Yes, he did become an arrancar when removing his mask and presumably gaining his zanpaktou; HOWEVER, there is no evidence(unless I missed some page somewhere) that suggest he was ever in contact with Aizen;

Yah, you missed it.
First of all, we see that he's in a completely different form than when he first became an arrancar. (if you remember, he had no fur when he became an arrancar, wasn't big at all, and various other differences, he really looked nothing alike). Also, chapter 188, page.. I dunno, 12 or so, talks about Aizen having contacted the immature arrancars (Grand fisher) and turn them into more complete arrancars.

heck even if he was hougyoku'd, because he's so large, he's weaker than any of the gillians that showed up later on(more humanoid apperance = more powerful.) To be honest, I don't see how you can't come up with the conclusion that he became captain level because of hybridization. He was no where near the level of a captain pre hybridization, nor did he have a zanpaktou and his reiatsu was a high seated officer level at best.


Reread my post. I said we have NO determiner for his power, no where do I state that he's captain level, quite the opposite in fact!

And a question to you: If he was already an arrancar, how could aizen hybridize him once more?

as said by isshin, he was an incomplete, immature arrancar. He wasn't done changing. (he didn't have a zanpakuto before)

So what you're basically saying is they gained no powers from being hybrid...i.e sonido, hiero, releasing and most of all a zanpaktou. I think you're mistaken on this.


if by "powers" you mean "abilities" I clearly stated that they gain several of these. If by "powers" you mean "reiatsu" (and it's pretty clear you don't) then no, they don't gain any.

Yes he got knocked silly by luppi, but also recall he didn't die and that Luppi was released. Of course he had to resort to his ability, it's his main attack that would work on an opponent of that level. Why not use the strongest and most effective attack instead of spaming weaker attacks that wouldn't do much damage and had Luppi on the verge of death(saved by negation)? I don't see how this is a point against Hitsugaya.

Luppi was not on the verge of death. We saw no indication to show that. He was hurt, yes, but he had no vital damage at ALL. Second, if it takes Histugaya's STRONGEST attack, in the STRONGEST situation, to take out the WEAKEST espada, it doesn't prove much in terms of him being strong, does it?


Yes, and what exactly does it mean that his shikai had no affect on an espada? It just means he's in the same league as Ichigo(who is clearly byakuya level in shikai) and had no affect on a privion espada.


What are you talking about? Doldoni had to release simply to push Ichigo into bankai. He had to match Ichigo's sword swings with attacks of his own just to prevent the damage. He didn't stand there, take the attack, and come out unscathed like Yammy did. Ichigo was *CLEARLY* more effective against Doldoni than Histu was against Yammy.

What would you rank byakuya, and then what would you rank zaraki kenpachi, and then finally Ichigo? I'd say they're all around mid level, and it's been shown this:

Shikai Ichigo = restricted kenpachi
Shikai Ichigo w/ GT >= Byakuya's shikai
Shikai Komamura <= restricted Kenpachi

What i'm trying to say is: Shikai level attacks(excluding Yamamoto's) are generally ineffective against ajucha espadas(save for Syzael who considers himself weak, but even so Syzael didn't suffer much damage from Renji's shikai, if at all)


My earlier response proved your point moot.

1. Ichigo's shikai doesn't have a special power, it's just his reiatsu being shot out at an opponent;

Nah, in the byakuya fight, Ichigo explains that zangetsu takes it's own energy, and Ichigo sends his energy into zangetsu, allowing it to travel and then explode on impact. That's what a Getsuga Tenshou is all about, the BANG at the end. True, it doesn't have a special stat altering ability.

Renji's shikai allows for him to use more blunt force via channeling more reiatsu into it; Hitsugaya's does basically the same as Ichigo's, but freezes because of the nature of his zanpaktou.
2. If you're saying Renji > Hitsugaya because Hitsugaya's shikai only froze parts of Yami's arms, then you're saying Renji > shikai Ichigo because his GT got canceled out.

Again, you can't compare someone COUNTERING Ichigo's attack with someone who just takes it. Comparing Szayel, who was blocking, and Yammy, who was blocking is fine. Don't compare Doldoni, who was forced to strike back in order to redirect/disperse the attack instead of taking it head on. It's 2 completely different tactics.

3. Yes the ajuchas are a match for the captains but does he ever say a restricted captain can take on a gillian class easily?

Yes, he says "a captain won't even break a sweat against them." And since it's stated several times that captains ALWAYS have their limiters on, unless they get special per-battle permission (usually coming during a battle) that indicates a restricted captain is what Hitsu is talking about.

I don't believe so. And also, once he was at full power, the gap between them was indicated RIGHT away, with the instant freezing of Shawlong's arm just from being near Hitsugaya.
The fact that a gillian is weaker than hitsugaya doesn't really prove anything o.O

4. Then what do you consider Grimmjow who is fighting evenly, if not completely dominating at times, a bankai opponent who defeated two captains already?
What do you mean what do I consider him? Comparing him to shinigami captain levels? I'd say he'd be at the top of the mid tier. I doubt anyone could match his speed except for the top 3, and soi fong. Though I think most captains could probably defend against him if he was slower. Released, I mean.
5. Come on, are you seriously going to say gaining new abilities indicates no rise in strength? Do you remember what Aizen said? A shinigami surpasses it's limits via becoming a hollow, and the vice versa for the hollows; going by that every arrancar is at least .1 times more powerful than before. And i don't understand how they can become more deadlier if they're not any more powerful at all.


First of all, you need to understand that the limit for shinigami is their power, while the limit for hollows is their control. Hence why a hybrid is needed. Someone who can access the full power of a hollow, with the finite skill, control, and form of a shinigami. It increases their effectiveness exponentially.

Do you *REALLY* not see how gaining a new set of skills and a more efficient body would help? A hollow can fight longer now before they get burned out. They can be FASTER, much faster. They can fire off ceros, and balas, and etc in a timely manner instead of slowly building it up, allowing opponents to defend. They can focus on stronger attacks which use MORE of their strength than their almost unsentient former hollow selves could muster. They can UTILIZE everything they have instead of being a big, dumb animal.

You even point it out yourself, so I am firmly believing you must have misunderstood something.

Geta: No, Hitsu *IS* a kid, not a loli shota. He's not someone old that looks young. Shinigami just age slower than humans. Sure he has experienced probably a good 80 years, but he's the equivalent of a 14 year old. Why? Because there's a lot of evidence to suggest that no one ages for the first 60 years in soul society (or perhaps they age very little, so it's only noticable for the very very young) and after that, if they have spiritual power, they start to grow. We see all shinigami grow up from being kids, but we see everyone else perpetually stay the same age.
Something important to remember is that your mind develops as you grow. Hitsugaya doesn't have an adult MIND yet (or body), even if he may have a mature mindset. That's why he's still a kid. There are references made that Hitsugaya still has a lot of growing to do, physically, which also indicates he's still a child, and not just a child looking adult.

[ezxx]

i'll try to condense this as much as possible >_>

Huge hollows...hrm when did Renji face a hollow besides an arrancar? When did Kira ever come to earth or was shown in the manga to do what you say? If you'd refer me to a ch i'd be grateful :]

If it's been stated that the more shinigamis it eats, the stronger it gets, then I am incorrect. And that does indeed sound plausible, so i'll take your word for it instead of checking for it.

Checked the Isshin chapter, seems you are correct on that account; however, my point still stands that Grand Fisher becoming an arrancar = captain level reiatsu. Oh and we do have a determiner, just in the previous chapter, Isshin points out that if all captain class weren't controlling the size of their zanpaktou, they'd be swining huge zanpaktous like Grand Fisher's. So although it's just at the edge of it, Grand Fisher is at the level of a captain.

Okay, so you're saying no gaining of reiatsu -- how is that possible? When Ichigo goes vaizard = his reiatsu increases. When hollows become arrancars, their reiatsu increases. That pretty much seals the deal as far as I'm concerned, but read ahead to see why i'm correct :o I think you've said we have no proof of what Grand Fisher has done to get stronger but fact is we know exactly what he wasn't doing, which was eating shinigami. Since that's the case, the only thing he did is the last thing he did, removing his mask and waiting in HM, and what's eventually revealed, making contact with Aizen. So yes, Grand Fisher went from a seated officer level(at best) to a captain level via hougyoku hybridization.

The fact that he is much stronger than a gillian proves he is not a gillian class arrancar level. And if I recall correctly, Doledoni had the complete advantage even in unreleased state against Ichigo. Doledoni released because he did not want to be underestimated. A GT being countered by a mere kick is supposed to prove that it's stronger than Hitsugaya's shikai? Recall also that Yami had to punch his fists togeter to break out of the ice...

The part about Luppi: perhaps you misunderstood the verge of death statement; it meant that Hitsugaya could have taken his life within moments of having him trapped. If he finished the technique, or did whatever he was about to, Luppi would have been dead. Luppi himself acknowledges this. And so what he has to use the strongest attack against an ajucha, a released 6th espada btw is not the weakest, Ichigo has to use his getsuga tenshou against Grimmjow to get even a scratch on him.

[Primera Espada]

Okay, I don't have the bonus chapter on me. Go to a cite that has manga online and look for it. I'm actually quite amazed that you don't recall the flashback chapter at ALL.

Also, why do you think Grand Fisher got stronger? There's no indication of that. You keep saying "well since Grand Fisher got stronger" but you never supply evidence. Also "captain class" when referred to in bleach often means the level of fukutaicho (vice captain) and above. Also, the casual way Isshin was talking (skyscrapers HARDLY being the size of his zanpakuto. 1 or 2 stories maybe) and the fact that his statement was more about Grand Fisher's ignorance than a decleration of power, I tend to feel he wasn't explaining the level of opponent Grand Fisher was, more of the level of shinigami HE was.

Do you have a single VISUAL indicator of Grand Fisher's power after he became a more developed arrancar than before?

Do you have any example OTHER than Grand Fisher of what a hollow's power was before?

And luppi was not the 6th strongest espada, he was the 10th. Before grimmjow lost an arm, he was the 11th strongest, so when Grimmjow got kicked out, he took his place.

Also, you can't compare a single sword strike by Ichigo to Hitsugaya's full shikai attack. You can only compare Getsuga Tenshou to Hyourinmaru's ice dragon shikai attack. those are the same level (compared to the user).

Edit:

Hmm... I'll give you a bit of credit, it's possible that the huge hollow part was only specifically shown in the anime, and only referred to in that part chapter (at which time they would not have said "huge hollow") so it's possible. Without the chapter, I'll admit, I can't be 100% certain. I'm still 80% certain though