Vizard Shinji (sealed zanpakto) > Released Grimmjow?!

[Griffith]

Well over time people always gave excuses that when Grimmjow fought Shinji, he was severely beat by Bankai Ichigo, and had 1 arm. And rightfully so, but as we seen lately with the recent occurrences, would it really have mattered if Grimm was fully healthy?

As we seen lately Bankai Ichigo is on par with that of unreleased Grimm.
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8414/ichixgrimmkr4.jpg

And you would think with the ass beating that Grimm got by Vizard Ichigo when he had 1 arm.
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/97/grimmownedih3.png

You would think once grimm had released, he would gain the advantage, but it seemed the Vizard mask is on par with that of an arrancar release.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2757/page09no8.jpg

Vizard Shinji in base form with no mask dodged all of Grimm's attacks. In his fight with Grimmjow the fight was so quick it was hard to judge but the fact that Shinji's speed was not detailed in that fight is a key factor. We never got a chance to view Shinji's speed with his mask on. All what Shinji did in the fight was clash with Grimmjow, Grimmjow becomes unbalanced, Cero, fight over. Shinji's cero seemed to be a more powerful attack then Vizard Ichigo's GT. Due to the fact it totally engulfed Grimm, and Grimm needed to use his cero to disseminate the pressure or he would be dead.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2434/shinji236qn3.jpg

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/3892/shinji2362ot2.jpg

Shinji's speed was never displayed with his mask on.

So I would make the conclusion that Vizard Shinji is atleast on par if not greater then a Released Grimmjow.

So a Shinji with shikai and bankai will probably be one of the strongest characters in bleach.:D

[krompt]

This is a very rough topic to touch on, i thought about it many times myself. The entire Vizard grouo, i mean they can equal ichigo's mask/bankai by just putting on their mask and going unreleased. Not just Shinji but all of the vizard. There is to large a power gap between the vizard and ichigo. I doubt that most of the Vizard can even release, if they could than that wouldmake for about seven overpowered characters. Look at it this way, if all the vizard went bankai and stormed Hueco Mundo the espada would be pwned so bad that Grimmjow and Aizen would cry. But on topic i am pretty sure shinji can hold his own unrealesed (with mask) against a released Grimmjow.

[Griffith]

well Krompt I think its pretty much garuntee that Vizards have shikai, since we seen Kensei's sealed zanpakto, then become a swiss army knife, which indicate his shikai.
Bankai is really the question whether they have it or not, maybe not all the Vizards have it maybe a select few like Shinji. Since he is practically the leader.

[krompt]

Personally i think only one of them have it, i mean to keep the others in line. But whoever that is makes out to be a pretty powerful character. I believe it is Shinji but my gut tells me it is someone else.
But back on topic, i would say that the espada equal or are inferior to the Vizard group. I mean Shinji probably equals the number one espada in strength, so grimm is way outta his league. But once again that gut feeling X[

[Beee]

I think If a released Grimmjow @ 100% fought Shinji, Shinji would need to unseal his zanpakuto and at least use bankai/shikai. (But IMO a VizardBankai Shinji would beat the crap outta that GJ)

Grimmjow was injured and had only an arm. But the important part is that he had only one arm, which means that his powers were diminished by about a half. Add that and the fact that he was injured actually makes me wonder why Shinji even had to go Vaizard mode at all.

The entire Vizard grouo, i mean they can equal ichigo's mask/bankai by just putting on their mask and going unreleased.

hm... not sure we can really rely on that though, since that happened a long time ago and Ichigo is clearly much stronger right now than at the time

[krompt]

I think If a released Grimmjow @ 100% fought Shinji, Shinji would need to unseal his zanpakuto and at least use bankai/shikai. (But IMO a VizardBankai Shinji would beat the crap outta that GJ)

Grimmjow was injured and had only an arm. But the important part is that he had only one arm, which means that his powers were diminished by about a half. Add that and the fact that he was injured actually makes me wonder why Shinji even had to go Vaizard mode at all.



hm... not sure we can really rely on that though, since that happened a long time ago and Ichigo is clearly much stronger right now than at the time

I didn't pay enough attention to that part of the info, he did indeed become stronger and that makes a difference.
He states the reason he went mask in the above post. He says that he easily distinguishes grimmjow as a powerful enemy, and decided he had to end the fight quickly. Also even without his arm grimm was holding back, he was completely reluctant to release until Shinji put his mask on.

Also i though about a shikai vizard. There might not be much of a power difference between unreleased and released (shikai) shinji, i mean his shikai might have a stupid affect like turn things green....similar to the uselessness of Kira's.

[Griffith]

I think If a released Grimmjow @ 100% fought Shinji, Shinji would need to unseal his zanpakuto and at least use bankai/shikai. (But IMO a VizardBankai Shinji would beat the crap outta that GJ)

Grimmjow was injured and had only an arm. But the important part is that he had only one arm, which means that his powers were diminished by about a half. Add that and the fact that he was injured actually makes me wonder why Shinji even had to go Vaizard mode at all.

I don't think if he had both arms it would have made much of a difference. We have seen lately that bankai Ichigo fought on par with a unreleased Grimmjow at 100%. And as we seen lately a Bankai Vizard Ichigo is on par with released Grimmjow. Shinji is clearly a more skillful fighter then Ichigo is.

Well Shinji said he went Vaizard mode so he can end it quick, which he did. Because it wasn't much of a fight. That Cero would have killed Grimm if he didn't use his own cero to disseminate the pressure.

Also there may be an argument that Vaizards might have Grand Rey Cero.. Which is unique to the espada.. and Halibel said herself that Ichigo's reiatsu was espada like.

Also we must remember Shinji's speed with his mask on was never displayed. He could be one real fast mofo lol :rotflmao

[vaizado]

The fact that Shinji HAD to go into Vizard mode to fight a one-arm, injured, unreleased Grimmjow makes me believe he would've have to at least release his Zanpakutou to fight a 100% released Grimmjow.

[Geta Boshi]

Vizards have a bankai IMO , why ? Controlling your inner hollow looked harder than Bankai

[Sarada]

As we seen lately Bankai Ichigo is on par with that of Released Grimm.


You mean VAizard BAnkai Ichigo is on par with Released Grimm.

And you can't judge from the start of this recent fight. It's a warm up and to assess the will to fight of the other one and provoke him.

Fact is Shinji had to pull his mask for a severely injured, one-armed Grimmjow.

And please, 1 or 2 arm ALWAYS makes a difference. I don't understand why people refuse to believe it doesn't, since you can see clearly that Arrancar first depend on using their arms/hands to attack or block, then resort to using their sword, but even then still use the other barehanded arm to attack/defend. And when they release, the sword dissapears, and they are back to fighting barehanded, and you can double the amount of attacks/blocks with 2 arms instea dof 1,

[BigBadBuu]

Nice topic.

I voted for Vaizard Shinji/unreleased being stronger than Grimmjow/released.

As one can never know what special/broken powers their opponent has, Shinji dropping into Vaizard mode to deliver that FAT cero makes perfect sense even if he were much stronger than Grimmjow.

Looking at the way Shinji handles Grimmjow, it's clear he's head and shoulders above him. Strength-wise, it seem to me that he's at least on par with Vaizard/Bankai Ichigo. Throw in his experience (read: lack of stupidity) and I'm sure he *could* handle Grimmjow released. The question then becomes "would he risk it though?".

Also, the OP didn't post the actual cero fired by Shinji, but size and even the way it formed... reminds one of a Gran Rey Cero, no? :D

-Buu

[Llama]

You mean VAizard BAnkai Ichigo is on par with Released Grimm.

And you can't judge from the start of this recent fight. It's a warm up and to assess the will to fight of the other one and provoke him.

Fact is Shinji had to pull his mask for a severely injured, one-armed Grimmjow.

And please, 1 or 2 arm ALWAYS makes a difference. I don't understand why people refuse to believe it doesn't, since you can see clearly that Arrancar first depend on using their arms/hands to attack or block, then resort to using their sword, but even then still use the other barehanded arm to attack/defend. And when they release, the sword dissapears, and they are back to fighting barehanded, and you can double the amount of attacks/blocks with 2 arms instea dof 1,
But it overall doesn't make a difference. The out come would have been the same. Grimmjow would have been owned by Ichigo even if he had two arms. Yes, the arm could effect his physical strength. But it doesn't effect his overall spirit pressure. I could take Ulquiorra for example. He was able to take on Vaizard/bankai Ichigo's full out getsuga tensho and was unaffected by it even though he wasn't able to hold it back. Now lets say Ulquiorra lost an arm and Ichigo did the same thing. Ulquiorra would still be unaffected by the attack because of his over all spirit pressure. The only difference is that he would only be able to hold the attack for a lesser time since he has only one arm. Now lets do the same with Grimmjow. Grimmjow with only arm got owned by Ichigo for 11 seconds. Now lets say he has two arms. He would still get owned because Vaizard/bankai Ichigo's overall spirit pressure is greater than that of an unreleased Grimmjow. The only difference is that he might have held Ichigo off a couple of seconds but he would have still gotten injured like he did.

[Geta Boshi]

Ichi is the weakest of Vizard in context with his Vizard skills . In terms of usage of the mask Mashiro maintained it for 15 hours . Mask and Cero may be the tip of the iceberg of skills. As Vizards are the good guys and Ichi is one of them .

IMO Ichi's subsequent power ups will lean more towards Vizard skills

[Llama]

I never did answer the thread. I think Shinji is stronger.

[Primera Espada]

First of all, the IMPORTANCE of the arm.

Ulquiorra explains that the loss of an arm is enough to get anyone kicked out of the espada. Remember what the espada are, the top 10 most powerful arrancar. The loss of an arm means that immediately, they aren't strong enough to stay in the Espada. Why?

Because they just lost a chunk of their power. Their bodies are made up of spiritrons, remember? Tousen removed approximately 1/6 (maybe 1/7) of Grimmjow's overall power by slicing off his arm. His MAX power is less than what it used to be. In addition, his fighting abilities are now heavily reduced as Grimmjow relies HEAVILY on both hands for fighting. Third we see when he gets his arm healed, he kills Luppi in one blast, stating that his POWER is back. This clearly indicates that losing a portion of yourself also loses your power. (it's also why there are giants in soul society, they have TONS of power. They may not be too bright though, which makes them perfect as guards, instead of captains)

Next, let's explain the importance of his damages from Ichigo. We are explained that the amount of damage someone can take is related to how much reiatsu they have and when they run out of reiatsu, they die. This is actually explained several times (shunsui, byakuya, etc) and so basically cutting a person open, having blood spill out is basically having their reiatsu spill out. They are getting weaker.

So between the injuries, and the arm, Grimmjow is only at 4/5ths his regular power. Then Hirako shows up, tries to fight him, has to use his mask AND a cero to force him into releasing. The fact that he doesn't use shikai explains that perhaps his shikai is a full time release (Like ichigo) or perhaps it's an attack (like Ichimaru) or that he doesn't have shikai, or that his shikai is just not useful enough to bother USING against Grimmjow, and he goes straight to a Cero.

Remember what the vaizard are, POWER HUNGRY people. Odds are, none have bankai. Odds are, they all got hollow powers cause they needed more power, and fast, and that's what hollow masks give you.

But let's say for instance that Shinji DOES have Shikai, and Bankai.

He'd still lose.

Grimmjow, full powered, full healed, and unreleased would be enough to push Shinji to the point of needing bankai. We've seen that he uses a LOT fancier moves and skill when he has 2 hands, and uses his sword, then when he was 1 armed. Also we see him use a super powerful Cero, which indicates that he can beat out Hirako's Cero.

MOST OF ALL

Zanpakuto may increase exponentially in the amount of damage they can deliver with shikai and bankai, but for the most part, they do not increase the abilities of the user. Byakuya was no faster, or stronger during bankai than normal. Renji wasn't either. Ikkaku wasn't, but his WEAPON became much much stronger. Renji's WEAPON became much much stronger. Byakuya's WEAPON became much much stronger.

Ichigo's the only one that got faster.

Which is why Hirako would lose, as we see CLEARLY that Grimmjow's release increases his speed. Hirako would be too slow, and so unless he's got mad defense... he'd die.


Also, why on earth are people saying that Grimmjow's fight with Ichigo proves that Shinji is stronger. Shinji never had to fight against bankai vaizard Ichigo. Shucks, conflicted hollow shikai ichigo (much weaker than bankai, or vaizard) beat the tar out of Hiyori.

Don't confuse what Ichigo was going through during his vaizard training as him being a vaizard. Him slowly transforming into a hollow was so difficult not because of his power, but because of his abilities, his unpredictable attacks, his regeneration.

Also each vaizard only lasted 10 minutes, and they were even worried about Ichigo having his Zanpakuto. Frankly, they were afraid of facing Ichigo without their masks. Lisa even states she might die.

Why would you think the vaizards are that strong? I'd compare them to the 11th squad, who's top 5 members are easily between vice and captain class, but only their captain is actually worthy of captain class.

[Sarada]

Hmm like, to make it clear, Shinji is with or without mask?

But it overall doesn't make a difference. The out come would have been the same. Grimmjow would have been owned by Ichigo even if he had two arms.

You mean Shinji? Because Ichigo didn't do any owning in the previous fights, except for the 11 seconds.

Ulquiorra explains that the loss of an arm is enough to get anyone kicked out of the espada. Remember what the espada are, the top 10 most powerful arrancar. The loss of an arm means that immediately, they aren't strong enough to stay in the Espada. Why?

Good point.

Yes, the arm could effect his physical strength. But it doesn't effect his overall spirit pressure.

It could very well, as explained by Primera. And I just explained how it does significantly hinder him. Didn't you also notice how he had to switch between sword and bare hand? Wich he did. It was kinda like this 'make cero, take out sword, block, put sword back, make cero, take sword back out, block, put sword back, make cero, ....' That's gotta hinder him.

And, you would agree that any human, in real life, would be hindered by the loss of an arm, you would also agree it would hinder any other character, probably, but why not Grimmjow, in this case? You can claim it's the reiatsu evel that matters, but you forget there's also stragegy involved, and 2 is still less than 1. I'm sure you agree on that.

I'll wait for Griff to tell me if Shinji is supposed to have his mask on.

[krompt]

The fact that Shinji released to fight a one armed unreleased Grimmjow says nothing. He simply recognized grimmjow a a potentially powerful opponent similar to how ulquiorra saw ichigo as trash. Shinji released to end the fight quickly, Grimmjow tried to release as soon as he could. Shinji attacked and Grimmjow barely deffended himself then Shinji immediatly used a cero aftewards. After barely avoiding the blunt on the cero Grimmjow found the first opening he had to release, but was one again foiled, by ulquiorra.

[Agmaster]

If by greater you mean cooler in every aspect and a better character despite not being as fleshed out, then I fully agree. If you mean stronger, then I wish to agree but don't know yet.

[Dragonthorn]

I believe Shinji had the advantage the first time because he jumped GJ. Remember at that point GJ had an ongoing fight with Ichigo, then even Rukia stepped in and attacked him.

[krompt]

I believe Shinji had the advantage the first time because he jumped GJ. Remember at that point GJ had an ongoing fight with Ichigo, then even Rukia stepped in and attacked him.

Sorry but Rukia did nothing whatsoever to injure Grimmjow, and yes the battle with Ichigo was tiring but i would not say he iumped Grimmjow, I mean he had enough time to realise he was fighting a powerful enemy. So he attempted to release but was interrupted.

[Beee]

I don't think if he had both arms it would have made much of a difference. We have seen lately that bankai Ichigo fought on par with a unreleased Grimmjow at 100%. And as we seen lately a Bankai Vizard Ichigo is on par with released Grimmjow. Shinji is clearly a more skillful fighter then Ichigo is.

Well Shinji said he went Vaizard mode so he can end it quick, which he did. Because it wasn't much of a fight. That Cero would have killed Grimm if he didn't use his own cero to disseminate the pressure.

Also there may be an argument that Vaizards might have Grand Rey Cero.. Which is unique to the espada.. and Halibel said herself that Ichigo's reiatsu was espada like.

Also we must remember Shinji's speed with his mask on was never displayed. He could be one real fast mofo lol :rotflmao

Well if missing an arm is enough to be kicked out of the espada, I think it does make quite a difference. Besides, I think it's written somewhere that without his arm, GJ loses about half of his power/strength (which would make sense since he got replaced by Ruppi, that he managed to kill easily after recovering). And when GJ recovers his arm, he goes completely mad and rambles about how his powers has returned.

And yes the cero would killed GJ if he didn't use cero himself, but still, GJ managed to survive it even with a missing arm and various injuries.

[Griffith]

First of all, the IMPORTANCE of the arm.
Ulquiorra explains that the loss of an arm is enough to get anyone kicked out of the espada. Remember what the espada are, the top 10 most powerful arrancar. The loss of an arm means that immediately, they aren't strong enough to stay in the Espada. Why?

Because they just lost a chunk of their power. Their bodies are made up of spiritrons, remember? Tousen removed approximately 1/6 (maybe 1/7) of Grimmjow's overall power by slicing off his arm. His MAX power is less than what it used to be. In addition, his fighting abilities are now heavily reduced as Grimmjow relies HEAVILY on both hands for fighting. Third we see when he gets his arm healed, he kills Luppi in one blast, stating that his POWER is back. This clearly indicates that losing a portion of yourself also loses your power. (it's also why there are giants in soul society, they have TONS of power. They may not be too bright though, which makes them perfect as guards, instead of captains)

Yes he is definitely stronger with both arms. But does it make that much of a difference if he has 2? Bankai Vizard Ichigo annihilated a 1 armed grimmjow. And basically the same Bankai Vizard Ichigo is on par with a released Grimmjow. Shinji was clearly superior. The fight wasn't really much of a fight. Shinji did only 2 things... clash, grimmjow is overpowered becomes unbalanced, cero. Fight Over. Cleary domintant Shinji.

Next, let's explain the importance of his damages from Ichigo. We are explained that the amount of damage someone can take is related to how much reiatsu they have and when they run out of reiatsu, they die. This is actually explained several times (shunsui, byakuya, etc) and so basically cutting a person open, having blood spill out is basically having their reiatsu spill out. They are getting weaker.

So between the injuries, and the arm, Grimmjow is only at 4/5ths his regular power. Then Hirako shows up, tries to fight him, has to use his mask AND a cero to force him into releasing. The fact that he doesn't use shikai explains that perhaps his shikai is a full time release (Like ichigo) or perhaps it's an attack (like Ichimaru) or that he doesn't have shikai, or that his shikai is just not useful enough to bother USING against Grimmjow, and he goes straight to a Cero.

I think you fail to remember this that in base form, SHinji with no mask dodged all of Grimmjows attack. Grimmjow is the one who went to attack Shinji, cleary an act of stupidity. Shinji went mask first so he can end the fight quick. It doesn't mean nothing about his shikai. He probably didn't want to use it or Kubo is saving it for later. I don't know why your making assumptions about his shikai with no facts, it was probably because he doesn't like using his shinigami powers.

Remember what the vaizard are, POWER HUNGRY people. Odds are, none have bankai. Odds are, they all got hollow powers cause they needed more power, and fast, and that's what hollow masks give you.

But let's say for instance that Shinji DOES have Shikai, and Bankai.

He'd still lose.
lol another assumption "POWER HUNGRY", we don't know that as fact. For all we know they were trying to regain their shinigami powers like Ichigo or just Urahara experimenting.

And lol thats fail, released grimmjow > bankai vizard shinji, I'm loling hard :rofl:rotflmao

Grimmjow, full powered, full healed, and unreleased would be enough to push Shinji to the point of needing bankai. We've seen that he uses a LOT fancier moves and skill when he has 2 hands, and uses his sword, then when he was 1 armed. Also we see him use a super powerful Cero, which indicates that he can beat out Hirako's Cero.

lol super powerful cero... this the same cero Bankai Vizard Ichigo negated? Ichigo is clearly not as skilled of a fighter as shinji is. Hirako has yet show his speed in vizard form. He dodged all of Grimms attacks in base form with no mask. We can also have the argument that Vizards could have Grand Rey Cero.

MOST OF ALL

Zanpakuto may increase exponentially in the amount of damage they can deliver with shikai and bankai, but for the most part, they do not increase the abilities of the user. Byakuya was no faster, or stronger during bankai than normal. Renji wasn't either. Ikkaku wasn't, but his WEAPON became much much stronger. Renji's WEAPON became much much stronger. Byakuya's WEAPON became much much stronger.

Ichigo's the only one that got faster.

Yes but shikai and bankai help the user use abilities which are difficult to deal with. Ichigo only has GT. What if Shinji had a shikai and bankai similar to tousen... What will grimmjow do? SO we must wait till that information is divulged before you make ludacris claims. The abilities that shikai and bankai can present is an amazing power up.

Which is why Hirako would lose, as we see CLEARLY that Grimmjow's release increases his speed. Hirako would be too slow, and so unless he's got mad defense... he'd die.


Also, why on earth are people saying that Grimmjow's fight with Ichigo proves that Shinji is stronger. Shinji never had to fight against bankai vaizard Ichigo. Shucks, conflicted hollow shikai ichigo (much weaker than bankai, or vaizard) beat the tar out of Hiyori.
I'm still lol'ing at a bankai Hirako losing to a released grimmjow. Grimmjow is on par with that of Bankai Vizard Ichigo and thats not even impressive.
People are comparing the fights because Shinji is clearly or more experience, skillful, and smarter fighter then Ichigo is. Shinji clearly demonstrated with mask only he is on par if not better then Bankai vizard Ichigo..

First off Hiyori was surprised by that attack. She expected Ichigo to go bankai and then the hollow will come out. She never thought the hollow was coming out when he was in shikai. Or she would have never continuously stated Ichigo go Bankai.

Don't confuse what Ichigo was going through during his vaizard training as him being a vaizard. Him slowly transforming into a hollow was so difficult not because of his power, but because of his abilities, his unpredictable attacks, his regeneration.

Also each vaizard only lasted 10 minutes, and they were even worried about Ichigo having his Zanpakuto. Frankly, they were afraid of facing Ichigo without their masks. Lisa even states she might die.
Yes Ichigo was a mindless zombie, but his reiatsu was still large. They each did ten minutes rounds because they weren't trying to kill him. They wanted to keep him sustained while Ichigo has his inner fight. Lisa states she might have to kill him next time around.

Why would you think the vaizards are that strong? I'd compare them to the 11th squad, who's top 5 members are easily between vice and captain class, but only their captain is actually worthy of captain class.

Why wouldn't you think the vaizards are strong.. they weren't brought into the manga if they were fodder. If soul society was strong enough they wouldn't need Vaizards, and obviously they are not strong enough. Shinji makes the comment SS will need them.

Well if missing an arm is enough to be kicked out of the espada, I think it does make quite a difference. Besides, I think it's written somewhere that without his arm, GJ loses about half of his power/strength (which would make sense since he got replaced by Ruppi, that he managed to kill easily after recovering). And when GJ recovers his arm, he goes completely mad and rambles about how his powers has returned.

And yes the cero would killed GJ if he didn't use cero himself, but still, GJ managed to survive it even with a missing arm and various injuries.

Yes he was without an arm.. But bankai Vizard Ichigo fought an owned a one armed grimmjow. And is now on par with a released grimmjow. And the only significant difference is he can hold his mask longer and maybe has killing intent.

[Air]

Vaizard-Shinji was way above UNreleased-1armed-injured-Grimmjow;
And I definetely think that he'll be enough also for an UNreleased-healthy-GJ.

Vaizard-Shinji vs Released-Grimmjow?
That's a tough one.. Probably power-wise they'll be even.
But Pantera-GJ is really FAST. More than Bankai-Ichigo.. and that's A LOT.
So, to the poll, I'd say GJ will be slightly stronger.


But if Shinji has a useful shikai ability, or a Bankai (and I'm 99% sure he has),
he'll be above full-power Grimmjow.

[Sola]

Shinji all the way.

[krompt]

Shinji all the way.

*Hi 5ive*

Seems that people refuse to eliminate the Shinji has shikai & bankai factor when they discuss this topic. Can Shinji unreleased beat Grimmjow released is the question. And i stick with my thought of Shinji being greater, but Grimmjow probably would give him a little trouble with his speed.

[Primera Espada]

see, here's the thing.

If your main argument is "Shinji could theoretically have a shikai or bankai that would give him the perfect edge against Grimmjow" then you have NO argument.

We can argue what ifs until the cows come home. WHat if Grimmjow has an even GREATER release than the one he has. What if Shinji CAN'T use shikai or bankai. What if what if what if.

The power shinji demonstrates when fighting Grimmjow is NO GREATER than the power Vaizard Bankai Ichigo demonstrates. It's less, actually. I dunno why people were so wowed by it. Well I guess since the previous chapter what Grimmjow laying the smackdown on EVERBODY it seemed impressive.

But seriously if you're saying that Shinji's shown any indication of being stronger than released, fully healed grimmjow, you're just being a fanboy =/

I mean, theoretically you *could* be right. Just like Gin *could* be as strong as aizen. We just have no evidence to support that theory yet.

[krompt]

The same way we have no real proof that shinji is at the same level as vizard bankai ichigo with his mask on. Every time Shinji and Ichigo fought Shinji was noted to be holding back, which LEADS to believe that he is stronger. And what if's are the basis of predictions. Also fanboyism is not claiming that Shinji can beat Grimmjow but it's like claiming Shinji can replace Ichigo as the main character of Bleach.

[Griffith]

see, here's the thing.

If your main argument is "Shinji could theoretically have a shikai or bankai that would give him the perfect edge against Grimmjow" then you have NO argument.

We can argue what ifs until the cows come home. WHat if Grimmjow has an even GREATER release than the one he has. What if Shinji CAN'T use shikai or bankai. What if what if what if.

The power shinji demonstrates when fighting Grimmjow is NO GREATER than the power Vaizard Bankai Ichigo demonstrates. It's less, actually. I dunno why people were so wowed by it. Well I guess since the previous chapter what Grimmjow laying the smackdown on EVERBODY it seemed impressive.

But seriously if you're saying that Shinji's shown any indication of being stronger than released, fully healed grimmjow, you're just being a fanboy =/

I mean, theoretically you *could* be right. Just like Gin *could* be as strong as aizen. We just have no evidence to support that theory yet.

Well its pretty much a guaranteed that Vaizards have shikai, since we already seen Kensei go from having a sealed zanpakto to a swiss army knife that is blasting Kido.

I could also argue that Kensei has bankai. Because when Byakuya noticed that Renji can go shikai without saying his release command, he understood Renji had Bankai. And Kensei didn't say a release command.

Vaizards obviously all have shikai, bankai is a question that can be pondered.

I think people were wowed by Shinji's performance because in base form with no mask he dodged all of Grimms attacks. And Once he put his mask on the fight was over in two shots. Clash grimm overpowered, and cero, fight over. Granted Grimm had one arm and was hurt. But even if he wasn't, Shinji displayed that he was so superior, Grimmjow will be only preventing the inevitable his release.

[Primera Espada]

We've never seen Hirako fight any non-shikai Ichigo, or even any serious Ichigo, so yah, there's no way to say there's reason that Shinji would be stronger than Ichigo.

We've seen the fullest extent of Ichigo's power. We don't know if we've seen the fullest of Shinji's. If we HAVE, then he's actually pretty weak (well, low tier captain at most)
If shinji has bankai, he might survive a fight with released, healthy grimmjow, but that's complete speculation.

Griffith:
We don't see the point where his zanpakuto shifts into being shikai, so we don't know if he said a command or not.
Also, it's safe to say they all have shikai, but it's NOT safe to say that everyone's shikai is a transformation for their blades. Tousen's blade doesn't transform, gin's doesn't, aizen's doesn't, so there's no requirement that they do.

[Llama]

I think an all out Shinji would equal that of an all out Ulquiorra. But that's just speculation.

[Velius]

The same way we have no real proof that shinji is at the same level as vizard bankai ichigo with his mask on.

No one has prove of anything. LMAO. Bleach's 'power levels' are some of the most inconsequential out there. Why? Because so many factors infulence a fight, determining if A>B hardly ever means and certainly doesn't guarantee a win.

If I had to guess, in raw power, I would say Shinji would have access to more the Grimmjow. No reason really. Just how the whole situation looks to me.

[Rain]

Shinji sealed wouldn't stand a chance against Grimmjow released.

If he were to go shikai i think they'd be even.