Ishida and Chad: Awesome but pointless?

[Primera Espada]

(Now if a pairing war comes out of this, I swear, I'll leave the board :p )

I was thinking for awhile how awesome Chad it, but how relatively unimportant he is. I can't actually think of ANYTHING Chad has done so far that serves any importance to the overall plot. The only enemies he fights are those that are after him in the first place, or those that would otherwise not be confronted. He has no family of his own, and can pretty much do whatever he wants. He goes to Soul Society to support Ichigo, and while he does a great job in his battles, he does... absolutely nothing of importance. He gets back, and tries to fight Yammy but gets waxed. He tries to fight Droy, but gets waxed. He fights a random gatekeeper hollow who anyone of the group could have defeated, then he beats one of the lowest privaron espada, before being promptly smacked by Noitra.

He has done.... NOTHING

Ishida is nearly identical. The only difference is that Ishida accidently instigates an aciton that causes Ichigo to be noticed by Soul Society (the menos) After that, he just fights random shinigami until he fights a captain, who DOES relate to Ishida's own plot, just a little, but then it's all tied up. After that, Ishida loses his powers, and goes on for such a long time before he's useful again, finally fighting random former espada chick for no plot purposes (honestly, the privaron espada have no place in the plot). He's finally proving to be something useful, plot wise, but showing up to save Renji, and presumably heading off to save someone else.

But, I found it interesting that Kubo would place such a... lack of importance on these 2 characters, and such a larger plot related importance on Renji, or Hitsugaya, who are immediately connected with the bigger plot. However, it becomes obvious that Kubo tite DOES in fact love these characters. They get a ton of screentime, they just are safely left out of the main plot's reach.

I wonder why that is?

Any ideas?

[Saffire]

Characters don't really have to be important to the overall story in order to have a point to them. Ishida's background has been interesting enough to deserve his own little arcs here and there, and they're a good break from the rest of the plot. (Though poor Sado...he really hasn't done anything of interest aside from get sliced up.)

And IshiSado is obviously superior to IchiIshi.

[ezxx]

Well if you want reasons for their existence:

They're the human resistance, refer to good ol' Yamamoto. They're his teammates that take up the share of the fighting because obviously Ichigo can't do it all. This was made clear right at the start of HM. Other than that, Chad has had a streak of bad luck by facing opponents that are WAY too strong for him; heck i'm not even sure if Ichigo would have a chance against Shunsui and Noitora. They need to be in the story otherwise it would just be Ichigo with powers on the human side; that would suck.

[badgercoon]

Well I like to think there's more to Chad than what's been said. He is a character that's had a bond with the hero the longest. (And I adore chad to pieces) So I like to see him as one of the characters that are to ideally help give you an idea of Ichigo as well as try to keep him grounded/show development. (best example when KT showed how ichigo was destroying his relationships with everyone, and chad to me seemed the most affected emotionally)

I was going to say something else regarding this, but I completetly forgot. *goesaway*

Ishida though I could care less about, so I don't have much to say about him, except he did an excellent job when fighting with Renji. it REALLY inforced KT's idea of friends/nakama sticking together to win. You know the whole "united we stand, divided we fall" stuff.

[Primera Espada]

I meant more along the lines of their literary importance. I mean, sure, Chad is an important person to Ichigo, but as far as the plot goes, he's got nothing.

"United we stand, divided we fall"

Dunno where you got "together we fall" from o.o

[Griffith]

Well we have a couple chapters in a row, which have had no plot introduced into them, so its nothing new to have no plot attributed.

But I disagree that Chad and Ishida are pointless, they serve as factors who seem to motivate our main antagonist Ichigo.

As for Ishida he is more relevant to the plot then Chad is. The fact Uryuu is the son of Ryuuken who is connected to Isshin is a sub plot. Ishida was the driving force for Ichigo early in the manga, and helped him get noticed by Soul Society as you said.

But these two characters are very important for 1 some simple reason they affect growth of Ichigo. Ichigo is a character who is continuously growing. Chad's resolve as well as Ishidas prompts Ichigo to grow.

I would hate to imagine what a death of Chad or Ishida would do, to Ichigo's overall character.

Also Ishida helps the long list of pairings... IshixHime ftw. :rotflmao

[Nocturne]

And IshiSado is obviously superior to IchiIshi.
What the, where's the love man? IchiChad trumps all! XD

I don't think either character are pointless either. Just that the focus isn't on them right now as. As Griffith said, both Chad and Ishida are important in the growth of Ichigo's character just as he is important to their growth. They both have their parts to play, we just have to wait and see what happens. The Bleach story has a long way to go so there will be other times where both Ishida and Chad will make their presence known in the plot.

I can't wait to see when Ishida catches Ryuuken with Isshin. That's going to be hot...I mean, yeah, his dad has been telling him not to associate with shinigamis and here he is hanging out with Isshin, Ichigo's dad, a shinigami. That's going to annoy the heck out of Ishida. As for his part of the story, I think it's still tied to his grandfather and Mayuri. Actually that's probably going to be Mayuri's role. I want Ryuuken to face off with Mayuri and say, "Hello, my name is Ishida Ryuuken. You killed my father. Prepare to die!" XD

As for Chad, as badgercoon said, his fate is tied with Ichigo. He's the best friend. His power awakened thanks to Ichigo. At the beginning of this arc we saw Ichigo tell Chad to take cover as he'll handle D-Roy. Chad clearly got hurt by that as they promised they always have each other's back. So in a way, Chad still wants to prove to Ichigo that he's become stronger as well so that Ichigo doesn't go it alone. That no matter what, Chad's got his back.

[Primera Espada]

Okay, there's a possibility that Ishida will be directly tied to the plot once the true nature of his father and isshin is revealed.

So I guess Ishida's not too pointless.

But other than being Ichigo's backup, does anyone see anything plotwise for Chad?

[Beee]

I'd say that yeah Chad is a little pointless, but Ishida's just too powerful for that o__o

In SS, his powers were just amazing and he was definetely captain level (after removing the glove) and even now he's quite strong. besides I don't think privaron espada are useless to the plot and it's way too early to really tell if they are.

I do believe Ishida will eventually hold a much bigger role in the plot. Quincy are pretty interesting and it would be really a waste to not get to know about them/what happened/ blablabla more.

[snow_white_rose]

But other than being Ichigo's backup, does anyone see anything plotwise for Chad?

Depends... probably a stretch but I don't remember the nature of his family's death... it'd be interesting if they all (somehow) had a role in everything as well. Everyone else's family has more or less...

[Guildenstern]

And IshiSado is obviously superior to IchiIshi.

You know, my friend once said to me that if Rukia had never appeared in the series, Ichigo/Chad would be the series OTP for people around the globe.

I LOL'd for a while but then I realized...it is smoking hot. :love (Then again she also said that if Rukia were a man Bleach would be the most popular yaoi shounen series of all time, so....>.>)

So obviously the reason Chad is in the series is to give Ichigo a fallback position that isn't Renji, and for the whole 'bro love' angle. Ishida is there to run around with his shirt unbuttoned to East Jesus while looking ambiguously sweaty with his father.
For you to even suggest Ishida is worthy of Chad's devotion when Chad clearly according to CANON is Ichigo's love bunny is nothing short of divine blasphemy, Saffire, you heretic. Kubo wouldn't put Chad's devotion to Ichigo in the manga if it wasn't meant to convey that their love is SO TRUE. Psshh...seriously, what -reason- is there for Chad to even be in the manga if he and Ichigo don't get together and get married? I mean, I think you and I both know by looking at subtext and Kubo's CLEAR imagery that Ichigo/Chad is the OTP. Chad's imagery is a tiger...Ichigo has the hollow mask...THEY BOTH HAVE STRIPES. It's so obvious what it means.>_>;; Obviously you're a Ichigo hater so you're biased on this topic. ;)


I like to think Chad and Ishida will have a more important role being in Karakura to protect it while Ichigo takes the more combat intensive approach-- namely, smiting his enemies. I'm curious to see where Kubo takes Chad, especially, given his Hollowesque powers.

The story isn't done yet, and there's a long way yet to go. Maybe their real roles have yet to be worked out.

[Saffire]

Obviously you're a Ichigo hater so you're biased on this topic.Ichigo's got like four chicks crawling all over him. So, I figure just let him have them. Then we get IchiRukiOriTatsuMatsu, everyone's OTP gets fulfilled (unless you're IshiOri, I suppose, but who likes that?), and the guys are left hanging. So, obviosly Ishida catches Sado on the rebound, Byakuya and Renji kiss and make up, and YamaxHitsu becomes reality because Hinamori will turn feminist and shack up with Halibel, and everyone knows old men are always dirty. If anything, I love Ichigo four times more than other shippers because I gave him four times the girls.

You know, not being a moderator is surprisingly refreshing. I kinda wish I had more to say on the subject though so this didn't feel like spam.

[snow_white_rose]

^Ichigo would die from the suffocation of all those breasts...

[Guildenstern]

Ichigo's got like four chicks crawling all over him. So, I figure just let him have them. Then we get IchiRukiOriTatsuMatsu, everyone's OTP gets fulfilled
Ichigo has breastophobia, just give him Rukia and Tatsuki and have Orihime and Matsumoto make out (edited for the children >:O)for Rukia and Tatsuki's Sapphic enjoyment while Ichigo tries desperately not to watch. Oh gracious.

So, obviosly Ishida catches Sado on the rebound, Byakuya and Renji I was totally with you up to here: YamaxHitsu becomes reality and then I was like "ARGH OMFG MY BRAIN" until I got to here because Hinamori will turn feminist and shack up with Halibel and then it was OK again, except you had to go and ruin it by throwing in and everyone knows old men are always dirty. Why did you do that, Saffire, why? ;_; I know-- it's because you used to be a mod and that made you evil. :yell

If anything, I love Ichigo four times more than other shippers because I gave him four times the girls. You should see the Bleach folder Ros and I have amassed on this comp, we've seen him with just about the entire blasted -cast-. It was epic. Thank you, 4chan. (o_____o)

You know, not being a moderator is surprisingly refreshing. I kinda wish I had more to say on the subject though so this didn't feel like spam. It's not spam if you do it for TRUE LOVE. >:O

But on a more serious note, until the manga is over you can't really determine if either Ishida or Chad is pointless or not, because you just don't know what's going to happen. Maybe Chad will end up whacking Aizen and will rule in his place with Ishida as his queen taking over his grandpa's place as the de facto Watchful Quincy of Karakura(tm). I guess we could speculate a bunch?

Edity-edit:
Since Chad, Ishida and Orihime are all around the same level of character (secondary character tier) there's no reason to think they won't get their moment in the spotlight later on, just as she is now. Kubo has a love for extraneous characters but somehow I don't see him biffing it with some of his most important ones. There's something cool in store for Ishida and Chad in future, for sure. ^^

[NeoSapien]

In the post-Aizen Bleach, Chad will be abducted by the King of Hell and Ichigo will have to go rescue him.

[BigBadBuu]

Guys, please...

While I do appreciate the assorted silliness, please lets get back OT.
________

Chad has, yes, become somewhat of a joke of late, but I'm sure KT has some plans for him. I mean, to have him Shunsui/Noitara'd every arch? Perhaps his purpose is simply to be someone who consistently tries and fails.. KT's proverbial monkey chasing the moon.

Ishida, on the other hand, still has great potential for many reasons. As some mentioned earlier, the rich backstory along with the insane powerlevels available to him (controlled angel form, 2-winged angel form, etc), IMO he's far from even approaching pointless.

-Buu

[Primera Espada]

thank you Buu, just what I was thinking XD

Also, I am officially deciding that Ishida is not pointless.

So we can focus topics on chad now.

[Shannon]

YamaxHitsu becomes reality

Gah!
That killed me for a second. That's total excess shotacon. :yell.
^And Ishida isn't pointless, pairing-wise. Ha. Then there's Chad... hmm... uhm... I don't see KT's point in Chad right now, but he might have some... important... role? D:

[Guildenstern]

KT's proverbial monkey chasing the moon.

That's Renji. Byakuya's a little snot.
And to be fair, Chad's not the only one in this story losing fights. Ichigo was like 0/4 at the start of this arc. Chad, like Ichigo then, just hadn't reached the apex of his power. He'll power up, he's just on his own schedule. Ishida stole his dad's Quincy Swiss Pocket Knife after going through the Quincy Boot Camp of Death (tm). He's been training and fighting with his powers a lot longer too. It just might take them longer because they're humans.

As a wise man once said, "Pimpin' ain't easy" and Chad's going to have to work for his ultimate pimphand technique. Like I said above, he, Ishida and Orihime are all in the same secondary chara tier, so I expect they'll all the get development Orihime's getting later on when it becomes important to the story to do so. And I'm really interested in the Hollow-like aspect of his powers and his apparent lack of discomfort in Hueco Mundo. V. interesting.

[Planeswalker]

Ishida rules. He had to save Renji's pathetic ass. Chad is just useless though.

I think by using them more Kubo is trying to cure Bleach from a symtom of Dragonball Z syndrome. Who remembers Krillan, Yamcha, Tien and Chiatozu? Those characters became absolutly useless after a certain race achieved a power up that only they could access. However Toriyama still tried to make them part of the story, except Chiaotzu ^^;. I imagine the same thing is happening with Bleach, except Kubo is trying to give them some glory. Like Chad can still kick ass against an arrancar >____>

Ishida is far from useless though. He suits the Piccolo character and Piccolo was very useful for most of DBZ.

[Saffire]

Why did you do that, Saffire, why? ;_; I know-- it's because you used to be a mod and that made you evil.I only speak truth. Which is pretty evil, actually...

I had a thought that made me want to post again. Of the Karakura crew, Ichigo is relatively central to the plot, and Ishida has a lot of story going on as well, but it wasn't until recently that Orihime really became important. Before that she was basically comic relief unless she was healing/shielding. Which leaves poor Sado in the dust, usually bleeding. What do you suppose the chances are of him becoming important in the next arc? Though Kubo does have several other spiritually aware people floating in the background...but now that he's playing up the Hollow aspect of Sado's powers, the possibilities become more open for character development. Maybe it's just one of those things where Kubo really couldn't play up Sado's character because the plot hadn't advanced far enough to show him off yet. Now that it has...

[SiSL]

But other than being Ichigo's backup, does anyone see anything plotwise for Chad?

Abuelo relation to Espada old guy. Chad's powers resembles Hollow powers, right? Not to mention Chad is half spanish ;)


http://i16.tinypic.com/34sknmb.jpghttp://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6855/abuleote7.jpg

[Riekie]

Meh..I don't even think Dr. Gero and Sado's Abuelo are the same...

It needs ALOT of Hollows to create such 'thing'.

gah..I dunno anymore:S

[SiSL]

Let alone Abuelo, we know Chad has hollow powers and Chad is spanish breed. That means it will add to plot.

[furato]

Chad is the first character I fell in love with, in the Shibata arc.
But in terms of affecting the plot...
...I would agree that he has done nothing.
As a supporting role to the main, Chad doesn't really have a specialised role. Among the inner circle* of Bleach characters, Ichigo fights, Orihime heals, Uryuu strategises, Rukia kidous and motivates, and Renji shares experience.
*For me the main characters of Bleach, based on chapter/chapter title/colour page appearances and closeness to Ichigo, are Ichigo, Rukia, Orihime, Renji, Uryuu and Chad.
Chad may have more role in the future, not unlike Orihime who was relatively sidelined in SS arc but focused on now, especially with the revelation about his hollowish power. But to me this is not an open plot thread that MUST be closed (unlike, say, the introduction of King's Key). If Kubo chooses not to follow it through, it won't leave that big of a plot hole.

Uryuu is a different matter, in the beginning he was the rival character for Ichigo, and the Quincy backstory was the first occasion where we're shown the corrupt side of the shinigami establishment. In the preceding chapters, we've only seen shinigami being 'protector of souls', including Rukia and her white lie about Soul Society being a nice place where little dead kids can meet their dead mothers. Uryuu's contrast with Ichigo is also, for me, a good way to display Ichigo's personality. But what I think is his biggest contribution is his involvement in the Menos Grande arc, where he was the cause of the hollow invasion in Karakura that ended up awakening Chad and Orihime's powers.

[Lilium]

If Chad has more importance to the plot, let's just pray is not another rescue arc >_<. It's actually an interesting theory about that old dude espada being somewhat related to chad since he does look like his abuelo. If we could get a further explanation on why menos who are basically made of thousands of hollows can somehow gain one personality.

There are a lot of theories on that, one being that a menos gains the personality of the most dominant hollow out of all the hollows he has eaten. That seems to work on adjuchas and vastrolodes, but for gillians, it's a bit fuzzy, since i don't see a gillian having any intelligence but just their instinct to eat. I'm talking about pre-arrancarized hollows of course. However, after arrancarization, they seem to have gain intelligence and a personality. It's all a bit confusing really.

As for ishida, he does have plot relevance. He and his father are the only two quincies left, and there's the whole sub plot with isshin. Also, he is ichigo's "rival" per say, though that has lessen somewhat.

[Axie]

Chad and Ishida don't need to be in the plot, but they make it more entertaining and broaden the cast of characters. If Chad and Ishida weren't in the plot than the battles we saw in soul society would be cut into two.

Chad gives us a little background with Ichigo, and I'm actually looking forward to how his hollow armor will evolve. I think it will eventually cover his whole body, with a helmet of some kind last.

Ishida, in the beginning, was a rival and obstacle for Ichigo. Ishida is strong, and he always manages to have intense, interesting battles. He is also becoming stronger and evolving his powers like Chad.

The main cast of characters is interesting and varied. We have a Vizard for a main character (Ichigo), and skilled Shinigami (Rukia), a young woman with unique powers (Orihime), a young man with unique powers (Chad), and a pride driven Quincy(Ishida).

If we just had Ichigo, Rukia, and Orihime as main characters things would be a bit boring. A varied cast makes everything interesting.

[emoloz]

Most animes have like as i would say sideline characthers with sub storys to effect the characthers. Its just normal that they are there. I mean i thought Inoue was pointless util now. There will be something that gets them involved. There friends. Freinds normally watch from the sideline and cheer you on. I think thats basically what KT has done in this but added their own stories to it.

[Geta Boshi]

Old Geezer === Abuelo WAS a fake spoiler which came out during Chad Vs Gantenbein . I and an other member from AS Lommm even compared Abuelo and Old Geezer pics and they were alike . But it was a fake spoiler and KT would get a
-50 on creativity for using that for Chad's character Development because he has used that for Rukia

And yes Chad and Ishida are central to the plot Chad as a friend and Ishida as his rival . Lately this has been diluted KT introduced new characters and got a little carried away cant blame him .

[Agmaster]

So much to say...

First off to the 'lovely' fangirls of the yaoi pairings....why is Chad bottom and EWWWW. Just...they are too friend like to be gay for each other. Can't we guys just be friends with each other? You don't see guys lumping up every other female with each other in manga. Just. Let. Us. Be. Friends.

Back on topic, I think KT pulled a DBZ (Not. A. Word.) but then realized how much a mistake that was with the characters who he spent so much time developing and linking. Thus came the return to town. In all honesty, Ichigo could've easily just stayed in SS. The story would've been different, but that option was certainly viable.

Now that he's retconning his mistake (thankfully better than US comics), the 'humans' are gaining more relavance....is what I would say until Noitora showed up. He pretty much 1HKO'd that theory along with Chad. Maybe old habits die hard for Kubo.

And stop hating on Chad, just because he isn't bishonen doesn't make him useless.

Planeswalker > me.

[debbiechan]

Chad and Ishida are essential to Bleach because

1) They are the "big guy who supports" and the "angsty guy who is a foil" for the main character. These are the types included in any group of young super-heroes across manga and anime and American cartoons too. They're traditional. Kinda like olives and mustard in potato salad. Not necessary but everyone's used the taste.

2) Chad represents who Ichigo used to be before powers--the punk with the heart of gold. While Ichigo goes through all these psychological changes, Chad is there to remind him (and us) of the way old friends should be treated.

3) Kubo loves Ishida. Not only has he given Ishida more panel time than any other supporting character, Ishida functions as the one who thinks the Scooby gang out of tight situations. He can explain to his friends (and to us) things that are happening or will be happening. He's a convenient narrator (since Ichigo is seldom very aware of things outside the present and we just don't get that many Ichigo thought bubbles).

4) As someone above pointed out, the supporting cast has to handle the other fights. Ichigo may be great but it would be very unlikely that he could make it through his adventures alone.

5) Shounen are always about teamwork and friendship. They're supposed to inspire good cooperation habits in young boys. Ichigo needs some friends--so he has two very different types here--the one who is almost freakily loyal and would follow Ichigo to the ends of the earth, and the one who seems to be a rival but isn't

6) Elements of the plot that are already inseparable from it include these two guys. One can only tell how these elements will play out, but the Chad said in Hueco Mundo, "I feel like I'm home." Will he turn Hollow? Ishida has scores to settle with his father (who is the foil to Isshin) and while a lot has been made of the Quincy past, there needs to be attention on a Quincy future. What will happen to the Quincy? Will they work with Soul Society in the end. (Will Uryuu have an heir with Orihime so the line can go on? :))

7) Ishida's been tearing through this particular arc not losing a fight and being supremely confident (not cocky). If and when Ichigo goes out of commission while he's battling evil demons and whatnot, Ishida can serve as a vice-president young lead. I can see him being the voice of reason among the gang if and when they're confronted with an Ichigo who could be a danger to them and the Living World.

I think Kubo's got too much savvy to let Bleach become another DBZ. With DBZ, it's clear that Toriyama wanted to end with the Namek saga. After that the secondary characters only serve to be gutted or put in peril and the plot isn't as tight as before. The plot doesn't rely on former elements and mysteries as Kubo's plot does.

In some sense, I do think that this has happened with Kubo--slower plot, characters left to the wayside (only we KNOW they're left to the wayside when in the SS arc we didn't even know they existed--they were being introduced). But there's such a deliberate theme in Bleach--it's been the Ichigo vs Hollow story since chapter one. It hasn't seen a resolution, only the end of one adventure (SS).

There's so much more to come, and Kubo is going to give our boys Chad and Ishida a big role, I'm sure of it.

[Planeswalker]

Planeswalker > me.

Quite random o.o


I think Kubo's got too much savvy to let Bleach become another DBZ. With DBZ, it's clear that Toriyama wanted to end with the Namek saga. After that the secondary characters only serve to be gutted or put in peril and the plot isn't as tight as before. The plot doesn't rely on former elements and mysteries as Kubo's plot does.

In some sense, I do think that this has happened with Kubo--slower plot, characters left to the wayside (only we KNOW they're left to the wayside when in the SS arc we didn't even know they existed--they were being introduced). But there's such a deliberate theme in Bleach--it's been the Ichigo vs Hollow story since chapter one. It hasn't seen a resolution, only the end of one adventure (SS).

I think there are some things that are far too late to avoid. Bleach already has the following symptoms of DBZ syndrome:

- Useless side characters
- Numerous power ups
- Untouchable villans that require instantly learnt power ups to defeat
- Tedious fight sequences

And lets add on a few Bleach originals ;D

- Poor character development
- Boring and lazily drawn locations
- Story Repetition (Hueco Mundo = SS but worse!? o.O)

Its going to take a miracle to revive Bleach to its former glory.

[Guildenstern]

:cool:First off to the 'lovely' fangirls of the yaoi pairings....why is Chad bottom and EWWWW. Just...they are too friend like to be gay for each other. Can't we guys just be friends with each other? You don't see guys lumping up every other female with each other in manga. Just. Let. Us. Be. Friends.

I see the sarchasm is wide today. >_> Let me try again.

Now, I never said Chad -had- to be the bottom, they could switch. Everybody likes variety. And I would hope they'd be good friends if they were going out! I mean, people always go on about how they married their 'best friend'! >:O Really, really good friends. With benefits. >_>

Also, guys don't pair up all the female cast?! Well why the hell not?! >_>;; You can't tell me Yoruichi/Soi Fong isn't hot. Rukia/Orihime?! Come onnnnnn. ;)

debbiechan: I can see him being the voice of reason among the gang if and when they're confronted with an Ichigo who could be a danger to them and the Living World.

Oh, that's a really interesting idea. Ishida as the sane one/voice of reason as a counterpoint to Ichigo's Pulp Fiction-style elimination of his enemies. I'd kinda like to see Ishida and Chad taking control of smiting Hollows/Arrancar in the human world while Ichigo takes down the super baddies elsewhere.

- Poor character development
- Boring and lazily drawn locations
- Story Repetition (Hueco Mundo = SS but worse!? o.O)

-Poor character development? Do you mean Orihime or something else entirely?
-I'll admit Hueco Mundo isn't much to look at, but the architecture of the place is pretty neat if only for the modern/cubist/quaker style of the furniture and buildings. Other than that it's pretty plain. XD
-Other than the circumstances (Girl in dangerous place, friends go to rescue etc) I feel like the Hueco Mundo arc has a totally different feel and atmosphere to it than SS arc, although I can see the similarities too. Why worse, if you don't mind me asking? :cool:

[Agmaster]

Planes beat me in comapring the roles of Humans to DBZ. Thus > me.

Guild; No. We really don't. Never. And ugh, Rukia. That's like ... a cousin. I never want to see her as anything more than that annoying kid with good intentions. Let's not even get into the idolism addicted Soi Fong.

[Guildenstern]

I never want to see her as anything more than that annoying kid with good intentions.
Annoying kid?! RUKIA?! Rukia's 75 pounds of rabbit-loving, cold steel wielding one-woman wrecking team! QUEL HORREUR. >:O Besides, Orihime idolizes Ichigo and nobody has a problem with that, so Yoruichi/Soi Fong is just fiiiiiine! >:O

...I am just kidding with you. XD Please forgive me for jerking your chain, I simply couldn't help myself. XD

[debbiechan]

I think there are some things that are far too late to avoid. Bleach already has the following symptoms of DBZ syndrome:

- Useless side characters
- Numerous power ups
- Untouchable villans that require instantly learnt power ups to defeat
- Tedious fight sequences

I'm with you on these--the impossible power-ups untouchable villians are one of the risks of writing shounen. It seems to be a matter of taste (or age group) whether or not you enjoy the traditional beat-the-bad-guys scenario.

Kubo is responsible for having introducing SO many characters. I think he just likes to play with character design. I can see each of the Espada being an interesting opponent but are we going to get a whole backstory on each Visored? All those characters we loved in SS--a lot of them are no longer important--which makes one wonder if they were important in the first place.




And lets add on a few Bleach originals ;D

- Poor character development

Bleach original? I don't get it. Poor character development isn't something unique to Bleach. A lot of characters in other manga happen to be fun, interesting, and serve their purpose in plot without having to be fleshed out and made into lab rats going through some sort of psychological maze and put through angsty torments. I see change in Bleach characters; I think many would argue that Kubo's characters develop very well.


- Boring and lazily drawn locations

Las Noches is beautifully spare and minimalist to me. Kubo's always been spare on backgrounds, even in SS.

- Story Repetition (Hueco Mundo = SS but worse!? o.O)

Its going to take a miracle to revive Bleach to its former glory.

Well, there's no denying that HM = SS now. The parallels are waaay too obvious, and I wonder if Kubo isn't playing with a parody. Or if he isn't, he's trying to tell us something about the essential difference of two forces.
Shinigami (keep the order) and Hollow (destroy) The main kids face different opponents in HM under similar circumstances.

[Primera Espada]

I would argue that there are tons of character development, just not for Chad.

And seriously guys, quit feeding fuel to the fire. No more sarcasm in this thread, k? You're in danger of making it look like you're trying to sabotage .

[Planeswalker]

-Poor character development? Do you mean Orihime or something else entirely?
-I'll admit Hueco Mundo isn't much to look at, but the architecture of the place is pretty neat if only for the modern/cubist/quaker style of the furniture and buildings. Other than that it's pretty plain. XD
-Other than the circumstances (Girl in dangerous place, friends go to rescue etc) I feel like the Hueco Mundo arc has a totally different feel and atmosphere to it than SS arc, although I can see the similarities too. Why worse, if you don't mind me asking? :cool:

- I dont mean Ori. I mean Nanao, Shunsui, Ukitake, Urahara, Yoruichi, Gin, Aizen, Unohana, Isane, Hanataro, Mayuri, Nemu, Tatsuki, Keigo, Hisagi, Kuukaku, Ganju, All of the Vaizard, most of the Espada and a certain little Hitsugaya (He has a lot of manga time but he never developes at all).

- Its not just Hueco Mundo. Its Soul Soceity and Earth as well. Bleach only has three locations right now and they have all been whored to the max. Most of the Bleach backgrounds recently are almost plain white. Its boring.

- Ok...a rundown of Soul Society. Ichigo and co go to SS via Urahara to rescue Rukia, who has been captured by a seemingly invincible shinigami, Byakuya. There they meet some weak tag alongs, Ganju and Hanataro who are slightly useful but not really. The 13 captains are revealed. Ichigo and co start by fighting some low level shinigami.

Ok thats good enough. Now Im going to use the same paragraph and replace some words to make a rundown of the majority of the hueco mundo arc:

Ichigo and co go to Hueco mundo via Urahara to rescue Orihime, who has been captured by a seemingly invincible arrancar, Ulquiorra. There they meet some weak tag alongs, Nell and her hollow bitches who are slightly useful but not really. The 10 espada are revealed. Ichigo and co start by fighting some low level arrancar.

Ill admit its gotten a little different from SS, but only because theres no progress on the fighting side. In SS Ichigo actually beat his strong opponents. In Hueco Mundo he does not.

And Hueco Mundo is worse because its been done before. Soul Soceity was brilliant in the way it was done, but I dont want to see it done again at another boringly drawn location with another massive set of characters that arnt going to be developed.

Bleach original? I don't get it. Poor character development isn't something unique to Bleach. A lot of characters in other manga happen to be fun, interesting, and serve their purpose in plot without having to be fleshed out and made into lab rats going through some sort of psychological maze and put through angsty torments. I see change in Bleach characters; I think many would argue that Kubo's characters develop very well.

Your quite right. Its not unique to Bleach but its a huge factor within Bleach, that DBZ never dealt with. The characters of DBZ had gotten massive development in Dragonball and so we just needed to continue their journey. The new characters introduced in DBZ all got adequate development. Bleach however has introduced far too many characters and as a result its nearly impossible to develope them satisfactoraly. Character development is usually in the form of a flashback and impedes the story. The only way Kubo can develop soo many characters is by the quick few pages flashback (as seen with Yachiru and Kenpachi), which is not satisying at all really.

Las Noches is beautifully spare and minimalist to me. Kubo's always been spare on backgrounds, even in SS.

I suppose it is a form of art to do such a thing, but it gets boring because he did the same thing for SS, which was a very long arc. Really if you gave a non Bleach reader a page from a fight in SS and a page from HM I doubt they would be able to tell the difference in setting.

I guess I just want an interesting setting for a change. The setting for a fight can really make a lot of difference.

[silhouette]

I don't see Chad as pointless and I believe Kubo has big plans for him.
First to answer why he is not joke, Sado -even though a beginner who barely learned how to shoot el directo before going to SS- didn't lose to a vice captain or even a normal captain, Sado lost to Shunsui who is referred to as Senpai by Byakuya and the likes. And in HM, he won his battle against a fallen espada without using an advanced quincy weapon and without a bankai, it was his luck that brought him across Noitora. And please let's not forget the fact that he was the least trained and yet he progressed almost as fast as Ichigo.
About his role in bleach, Sado is Ichigo's real partner..not Rukia...not Renji..not even the Vizards. He's the one who made a pact with Ichigo and he's the only one who faces formidable foes without hesitation or fear. Don't forget that he's in HM now, he's near death, full of sorrow and his bowers are hollow based and despite losing to Noitora they are very strong...you never know what will happen or how this will affect him if he makes it back to the material world.

[Planeswalker]

he won his battle against a fallen espada without using an advanced quincy weapon and without a bankai

You make it sound like Ichigo and Ishida were cheating =/ Chad's Right Arm of the Giant and Left Arm of the Devil are his equivalent of bankai and quincy weapons.

I mean you could say the same thing about Ichy and Ishida...that they won their battles against a fallen espada without using armour abilities =p

[silhouette]

I mean you could say the same thing about Ichy and Ishida...that they won their battles against a fallen espada without using armour abilities =p
Sorry for not explaining myself better (^_^ !) The difference is in the familiarity with the powers. You see, Ichigo fought several times with his bankai, he was trained how to use it by Zangetsu who also taught him the black GT (yet he almost lost his fight against Byakua if it wasn't for Shirosaki) and Ishida knows about his weapons very well -thanks to being raised by his grandfather- and can utilize them to the max while Chad on the other hand finds about his powers almost right before the fight, it's true that he trained with Renji but he wasn't using the armour or the devilish arm and I think it's unfair to expect him to master them in a few minutes!! Chad's raw power is awesome but he's being neglected by the ones who can train him, if he didn't bow to Urahara and beg for training, he would've been still at the el directo level, why? Why can't Yoruichi for example train him? We all saw how Ichigo improved in fighting with his bankai the last time so why not expect Chad to get used to his powers and fight better with it too ?!

[Starwing]

Awesome but not very vital... yet. But Chad, at least, might be getting some important plot-relevant twists soon.

There's a billion and one things Kubo could do with him. Why does he have hollow powers? If it came from Ichigo, why in the world did Ichigo give Chad hollow powers? If it came from within, why does he have hollow powers. HM is the prime time to find out.

See, if shinigami came to earth, had children and such... and their children has latent shinigami powers, why can't high ranking, humanoid hollows do the same? Surely they have a certain version of Urahara and certain technology to allow them to live as humans.

Take Chad's Abuero, instead of dying and then turning into a hollow, perhaps he was a hollow all along.

Anyways, that's my pet theory about Chad right now. And Uryuu's awesomeness surpasses any need for plot relevancy. I'm sure he'll get his due soon anyway.

[Jasse]

Vital to the plot?

Well, my answer regarding the current storyline would be no, although its very possible the Chad does get to be plot relevant since the hollow revelation.

Both characters as they stand now can be very well be omitted from the story without any sacrifice or an impact on the Bleach plotline.

I do hope from Chad to find another reason to fight, and not to be focused solely on Ichigo. it is the truth to be told, Chad gives Ichigo much more credit and interest than he gets in return.

About Ishida, the guy is still lost, hoping that his reconnection with his father will bring some interesting developments for him. he needs to get stronger as well.