Israel-Palestine your views and opinions

[mechaqua]

my Personsal Opinion on the Israel Palestine Conflict

I like many Jews criticized Israel on some their actions, i personally wasn't to happy with the way they handled the Lebanon conflict, but i am noticing that a lot of people call Israel apartheid government. I liked to state Israel is not apartheid country, for one yes there is discrimination, against them no more then what minorities in the US, receive, or in some European nations, but Arabs hold office in Israel they have three parties i believe in Knesset's and many are ambassadors to nations, second of Arabs except Druze are exempted from military service, Arab Israelis, have all the rights, that the Jewish and Christan citizens have, also Arab Israelis have been the target of terrorist attacks, and are sometimes are barred from traveling to Mecca, and Medina because of the Saudi Governments relationship with Israel an Arab living in Israel, has more rights then Jew living in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, Yemen, Omar pretty much most of the world.
In recent news, an Arab Israeli man nearly beat his sister to death for trying to marry a Jew. (I wish i could remember the news source either the Times or CNN) Israel is one of the few nations, in the middle east that let Arab women vote, Iraq, Lebanon , and Egypt allow women to vote. (by the way i am sorry for spelling Medina wrong) this is because most middle eastern nations are still ruled by a monarchy or a theocracy. Israel has rights for homosexuals, unfourently they can't get married, but partners ,may have custody to children, share work benefits, inhareit and, are considered by the state pretty much to be family , its considered a civil union not a marriage. its not perfect but in most other nations in the middle east you can get arrested in some remote areas stoned for being a homosexual.
yes Israel is not perfect yes they do make mistakes, I support the exsitince of Israel not just because I am Jewish but because Israel is by far the most liberal nation in the middle east! To understand Isreals actions and policies you must look at its situation, it its the size new jersey, surrounded mostly by nations that would, rather see it wiped off the face of the earth, which is why Israel often overreacts to certain events, but most nations on earth don't have to worry about rockets hitting schools and hospitals. also should note that a large portion of the Israeli population, support a Palestinian state, its just there are some the orthodox minority don't see eye to eye with the reformed and conservatives Jews who now make up the majority of the Israeli population.

I too support a Palestinians State yes do i see Hamas as legitimate, government of Palestine, unless they are willing to negotiate with Israel, and i don't considered launching rockets in Serdot as negotiations. Despite President Carters, noble efforts, i do not think that Hamas, is willing to recognize the State of Israel. I feel awful about the civilians, who have had to die, I met several Palestinians, and have Arab friends and are a good decent people

I feel awful about how many on both sides have had to die, but i still hold hope that there will be both and Israeli and Palestinian state, despite all that has happen.

If this discussion, becomes too heated and results in uncivil talk I implore the moderators to take this thread down, but from what, I have seen on Bleach asylum, i doubt this will occur, everyone seems to respect each others opinions which is one of the reasons why i love this forum

[Shdo]

i am an israeli and i will be happy to answer any questions about israel.
btw even the most right wing party in israel support he palestinian state, the only question is what country it will be.

[mechaqua]

How did the Israeli population react to Jimmy Caters Statement about Hammas? from what i have seen on CNN and read in the Times, it wasn't positive.

[Shdo]

hamas open agenda is the destruction of israel, as they say, they will give us cease fire for 30 years if we give them a state...the openly said that they want all the land and that the jews should leave. carter isnt a friend of israel for years now but this thing really pissed us off, its like he will go and have a talk with iran president, the same guy who again and again talked about destroying israel.

in a way, to us, its almost as if he would go and talk to hitler, its simply unacceptable.

not to mention that hamas are considerd outcasts in the arab world as well, by meeting them he also cause problems to fatah and egypt.


EDIT: there are 3 arab parties in the israeli parlament (there are many parties in israel) they have small diffrances, 2 wants to dismantle the jewish state and have a full democracy beside a palestinian state, the only diffrance is that one wants only this and the other is a little communist. the third one wants a jewish state and a palestinian state, the regular deal.

as for the religion thing, conservative and 'reformist' jews are diffrent in israel then america, in reality israel is overwhelmingly orthodox and what you call conservative and reformist is actually secular and 'traditional'. the orthodox judaism is really monopolising every religious aspect of jewish life, needless to say that this create much tensions between religious and secular sect of the public since in israel there is great emphasize on religion.

[ookami]

In my opion Israel is widely critisized by a large group of people due to what has been said in the media and press.Israel is largely acused of suicide bombing when it religoius extreamist that go to this extreame its basicallly playing the blame game. So now anyone from the middle east is now prone to racist slurs.

[Shdo]

In my opion Israel is widely critisized by a large group of people due to what has been said in the media and press.Israel is largely acused of suicide bombing when it religoius extreamist that go to this extreame its basicallly playing the blame game. So now anyone from the middle east is now prone to racist slurs.

:confused: israel isnt acused of suicide bombing, its attacked by ones that comes from outside our borders. pretty much like any other terror attack that plague the western world.

[ookami]

No I acctually mean by Idiot dobbers which are easily lead.

[Shdo]

well its true that israel is criticized quite heavily where other countries who do more killing and allow less media coverge are largely ignored. since there are no restrictions on the media in israel then its more easy for the news teams to get the juicy part and thus getting rating. the side-effect is that attention for cruelty around the world is deminishing.

[Inevitable.Exit]

well its true that israel is criticized quite heavily where other countries who do more killing and allow less media coverge are largely ignored. since there are no restrictions on the media in israel then its more easy for the news teams to get the juicy part and thus getting rating. the side-effect is that attention for cruelty around the world is deminishing.Israel gets criticized because a large number of their attacks into the Gaza area usually end up in killing civilians. The problem is, the media does not report that the terror groups launch rockets into Israel amongst civilians. I support Israel heavily.

Shdo, can I ask what the general morale of people in Israel is? I mean with fear of possible suicide bombings/rocket attacks?

[mechaqua]

Israel gets criticized because a large number of their attacks into the Gaza area usually end up in killing civilians. The problem is, the media does not report that the terror groups launch rockets into Israel amongst civilians. I support Israel heavily.

Shdo, can I ask what the general morale of people in Israel is? I mean with fear of possible suicide bombings/rocket attacks?


I too would like to know this i was supposed to goto Israel, last Winter, but my parents freaked out, and almost begged me not to go, afraid that i will get kidnapped or killed or both :hm i try to convince them it was perfectly safe, it would be easier to convince them to let me go if i knew if they knew it was safe

[Shdo]

israelis dont afraid of terror attacks as you would expect, after 90 years of such attacks you learn to live with it, as long as there is a willl to live its nothing.
years ago an american economic tychon watched the news and saw a report about a suicide bombing, then a thought came to his mind: how can you make a bus company work under those circumstances? how could it be that a day after a suicide bombing in a market the market is full again? how could it be that where other more normal people would stay in their houses and the economy will shatter, here you got the opposite and people keep on going to coffe shops, keep on going by busses, keep on going to clubs and dont leave tel-aviv but go there in ever growing numbers?

the answer is simple, if the desire to live is strong enough nothing can stop it, not fear and nothing else. we love life, its the best gift one can have and living in this situation made us cherish it even more. we fear inflation and road accidents more then qasams and Suicide bombing.


besides thanks to the wall suicide attacks dropped by over 90%, its being a long time since anything happend. the only place that still under attack is sderot, but there its more anger then fear, the morale drop there is because of the govrement inability to relieve them. i mean can you think about a country that will allow attacks on one of her towns for over 7 years?

[ookami]

My old Detachment commander is teaching people from Iraq and Israel to fight mainly so Iraq can Take control again Israel is ment to act as back up from neighboring countrys. Quite smart as well because the Insurgents In Iraq supossidly have symbol now so the soldiers trained in Israel can be seen as Insurgents If Iraq loses power for this to work america and the UK will have to withdraw from Iraq. Going off what he has described and told me the Israel soldiers are doing great top marksmen, top field craft , they use their own hand to hand combat but they are struggling with reading maps e.g. 32 figure grid references hardest known I can nearly do them but still your beaking it down into a metre square when on square on the map can be a mile long. I'd love to train with them myself I can in two years.

But why do people always blame Israel for suicide bombing when its quite simply not there fault it is mainly really uneducated people thats why the media is so messed up because they interview uneducated people.

[Shdo]

My old Detachment commander is teaching people from Iraq and Israel to fight mainly so Iraq can Take control again Israel is ment to act as back up from neighboring countrys. Quite smart as well because the Insurgents In Iraq supossidly have symbol now so the soldiers trained in Israel can be seen as Insurgents If Iraq loses power for this to work america and the UK will have to withdraw from Iraq. Going off what he has described and told me the Israel soldiers are doing great top marksmen, top field craft , they use their own hand to hand combat but they are struggling with reading maps e.g. 32 figure grid references hardest known I can nearly do them but still your beaking it down into a metre square when on square on the map can be a mile long. I'd love to train with them myself I can in two years.

But why do people always blame Israel for suicide bombing when its quite simply not there fault it is mainly really uneducated people thats why the media is so messed up because they interview uneducated people.

i dont think i understand your post entirly. anyways, in the israeli-palestinian conflict only the palestinians use suicide bombing, israel on the other hand cannot use suicide bombing no more then anyother western country can. its an horriable practice and hopefully with time our borders will be even more secure (with the addition of of more and more robotic weapons the job become more and more easy, not to mention less dangerous)

[Undying]

But why do people always blame Israel for suicide bombing when its quite simply not there fault it is mainly really uneducated people thats why the media is so messed up because they interview uneducated people.

Simple, it's the media coverage. Over and over again the media states that Israeli bombs "civilian targets". What they forget to tell you is that the Israeli army is bombing terrorists hiding inside civilian targets and firing from within them.

For example, during the recent Lebanon conflict, the Israeli were hitting a hospital in Lebanon. Sounds bad right? Now, there's a missile stand in that hospital that fires on Israeli territory, killing Israeli populace. Since the terrorists were the ones to use civilians as meat shields, Israeli are by no means wrong in what they do - it's covered in the Geneva agreements if I'm not wrong.

It's just one of many examples really; the criticism Israel takes on the Gaza operations where it supposedly "kills civilians" is another example - Israel actually hits terrorists hiding inside the civilian populace. Of course there are some civilian casualties when a missile hits the top floor of a regular house where a band of terrorists are planning their next attack or storing weapons, but once again, since the populace accepts those terrorists (or at least does not flush them out/give them out to Israeli forces so that they can be taken out quietly and without any loud noises), it's not in any form Israel's fault.

Oh, and I'd also like to point out that there's no such thing as "Palestine", there are no such people (they are all Arabs or Druz, nothing else), there is no such country (anyone with any education knows "Palestine" is the name Romans invented for this region and the British resurrected during the time they held sovereignty here). In short, the "Israeli-Palstine conflict" is better dubbed as "the anti-Israel factions in Arab states using the Arabs living near Israel as an attempt to call Israeli rightful ownership of the place as "occupation".

Oh, and for the record? I'm from Israel. So I know how things are around here, mostly.

[IngenuityGap]

What I've always wondered is that if Palestinians are supposed to be the great suffering cause for all these arab nations, why don't they invite them in?

[Shdo]

that a very funny question. when the war started in 48 the arabs already promised the heavens to the palestinians, they said that they will take care of the jews and that the palestinians will get everything. but things didnt went according to the plan and the arabs lost the war. and here starts the treason.

from 49-67 the palestinian territories(gaza and the west bank) were under egyptian or jordanian control. in all those years they could have get a country if they were only allowed to. apperantly they werent.

the same goes to lebanon syria and anywhere else, they have refugies camps and they stay there, to them its their identity. btw, they are the only group in the world that have a permanent statues of refugies, even the third generation is considered refugies and this is the only case in the whole world where for 60 years the refugy community didnt integrated in their host countries and STILL considered refugies.

so why is it so? why are they stay there? in those camps? 2 reasons, one is that its like a heritage, a stubborn sticking to the past instead of the present or future, the same way as they didnt tried to make a country from 49-67.
secondly, they are not allowed. you can find enough evidances of rejection from their host countries who simply dont let them leave the refugies camps. that is mostly because as long as there is arab israeli conflict there is something to unite the people against, drawing attention from the faults of the govrement and the best way to achive that is by keeping the conflict alive. if they had accepted the palestinians in then after 1-3 generations the excuse for the fighting would become less and less...relevent.


besides, they are not really seen as loyal by many arabs, as seen in 71' in jordan where over 8000 palestinian were massacured by jordanian forces for trying to kill the king. or 400,000 palestinians kicked out of kuwait after supporting sadam during the invasion in 90'. even the recent fighting in lebanon in one of the refugies camps was carried against palestinians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Expulsion_from_Kuwait

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Treatment_in_Arab_countries

the final link is the most intresting, you can see that not only they are not allowed to settele down, they are not allowed to even get decent jobs in some countries. its amaze me that the same people that went to war after war for the sake of the palestinians, wont even let them feed their own family with dignety.

[Undying]

What I've always wondered is that if Palestinians are supposed to be the great suffering cause for all these arab nations, why don't they invite them in?

Adding to Shdo's explanation, there's also the point that they are being used as a card in any debate going on between any pro and anti-Israeli groups. The "refugee problem" is being used as the joker card, somewhat of a "well LOOK HERE, you've got REFUGEES YOU HORRIBLE DICTATOR."

Also, as Shdo said, they are a centering target for hate. Really, if this was about the land or about the politics, they would be welcomed back into their country. But the problem is, this entire conflict is centered around one idea: "kill Jews". That's all there is to it, really. The entire ideology of the current anti-Israeli groups is the complete destruction of Israel and the murdering of every Jew here and anywhere else. When you get people with nothing but the destruction of others on their minds, especially when they are governing a country with nuclear weapons and are ready to use them.

And funnily enough, they call Israel "murdering bastards" :rolleyes:

[Shdo]

well they dont really say killing all the jews(at least most of them). they preffer to say 'destroy israel' which basicly means the slaughter of millions. and that is mostly their officel policy...scary isnt it?

i think this summerize the deal with the refugies:

In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating that "Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees' right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957)."

i think that until both sides will agree at the basic idea that no1 should annihilate the other then it would be the first step to real peace. as of now israel outlaw every political party that talk about such things while the palestinians elected one of those parties as their ruling body. therefor i guess the conflict is far from over.

but i do think that as time passes the palestinians will understand that their 'brothers' played them for a long time(the palestinians could have a state in 48' if not for the arab countries calls for war, which came on their backs and when the war was lost they were refused to get any acceptance from their 'brothers'. this is pretty much like some1 telling you to gang up on the new kid on the block and when your team effort have failed and you are stabbed or something he refuse to bring you home or to the hospital.)
and by understanding that they might actually stop being played by others and actually work to end this conflict.

[mechaqua]

Another Problem with the Palestinian refugees is that many argue why doesn't the Israeli Government let them back in they let them come back into Israel? If there are Palestinian citzens , perhaps Israel, would be able to have leverage? First of all most of Palestian refugees would not agree to become citzens of Israel. but The inherent problem is that Jews, Christan and Druze would quickly become the minority. overtime since Arabs tend have more children, then Jews, eventually Israel, would become the second Palestinian state, the fear is that the now Minority population of Jews, would be treated as second class citizens in a state they built, and Israels status as a a Liberal state would go down, the drain and Israel, would become another, slightly democratic state under Islamic law also i don't think the a lot refugees would take an offer like that. also the Syrian government, would never allow them to move they use them and exploit the refugees for their own political agenda.

[Shdo]

its beyond that. we simply cant take in 4 million people, especially people who worked for years to kill us. crime rates will fly through the roof and there wont be enough jobs for everyone. over time there would be more and more riots as the economy collapse and the result would be that from a prospering country it will become a dictatorship with advance weapons(maybe nuclear?) that cant be good for anyone.

[IngenuityGap]

Excellent. I basically knew the answer to my question, but I was very interested in hearing an Israeli perspective on it. Thank you very much.

[Shdo]

a intresting thing is that after the 48 war not only the palestinians were driven from their homes. 800,000 jews from the arab world were kicked and their property was stolen. they reached israel and were accepted, the govrement gave them housing and even with the little resources that the country had at the time still refugies both from the arab world and europe were accepted and take cared of.

on the other hand the arabs didnt showed any compassion to the palestinian plight. not only they drived them to war, after the loss they simply didnt allowed them to rebuild and make their own country in the pre 67' borders. and overall for 60 years they didnt allowed the palestinian to even leave the refugies camps or get citizenship.

sad examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J4PKztKHCY

its the same as the disengagement several years ago, as horriable as it was, not a single israeli killed another israeli. the soldier hugged and cried with the settelers and then evicted them. i dont see how can a country be so cruel to millions of their so called brothers.

[EX|pada #0]

Well, I'm all a Israel supporter. To me, Palestine lost the sense in the moment they started to attack civilian targets. Anyway I hope the Palestine state be created soon as possible to end the conflicts (or at least most of them)

Oh, thanks for the answers, Shdo. Is nice to read the israeli point of view.

[mechaqua]

Thanks Shodo for your information and perspective, its been hard finding a form were when you ask about the conflict you get some twat who calls, Israel apartheid, when they don't even live in Israel. :thumbs

[Shdo]

today's 7\5, is israel memorial day for the fallen soldiers. its kinda of a magical day, there are two alarms that are sounded across the country to signify when everything stops and we honor the dead, everyone just stand there and each person makes his own tribute to the fallen in his inner world. i find it amazing to look from the window during the siren, to look at how everything stops, cars, people, young and elderly, they all stop and stand there. i dont know if there is something like that in other countries but what is really amazing is what happens in the end of the day.

all along the day you dont have anything to watch in the TV but about things about soldiers. not wars or shows about weapons but about the fallen, individual stories and interviews with family members. and when the day end around 21:00 there is a shift. its independence day.

from sorrow to happiness, the streets are filled with festivals and fire works, small rubber hammers that makes a beep noise when hit and alot of foam. flags everywhere. its an amazing shift, how a whole country is able to feel so depressed for one minute and then a minute later its the most happy moment in the whole year. those days are also connected by action and result, the soldiers died so that we will have a country, this festival is the thing we died for a day before it. its the cause we go on.


understanding a little more about the israeli mentality is important to understand the conflict. you cant understand israel actions without understanding the effect the last 2000 years had on us.

[IngenuityGap]

The National Post newspaper here in Canada has been running an excellent series this past week on Israel turning 60. Saturday's paper had, probably, 12 out of the 24 pages of the main section devoted to this subject. It was a very compelling read.


The Israeli mentality is very strong from my point of view. All my respect and thoughts are with the soldiers who have died and those that serve, and more importantly the citizens who continue to brave these conditions.

[mechaqua]

well with the election here in the states its hard to find anything on memorial day in Israel, but Facebook, allowed me to remember.

God bless, those who have fallen defending the state of Israel.

[Shdo]

the problem is that the middle east as a whole is a very harsh place, weakness is never forgiven and its a really a rough game.

its not hard to find examples of middle eastern countries preying on one another, syria and lebanon, syria and jordan, libya and egypt and so on. in the middle of this are the israelis and palestinians, we are not the most important players in the game of domination (since israel cannot and dosnt wish domination over the arab nations and the palestinians are nothing but fugitives) but we are important elements.
we and the palestinians are used as excuse to do so many things around the middle east, syria invaded jordan to defend the palestinians while oppresing them themselves (during 71'). when egypt was weakend economicly and politicly in the middle east they went to war and then to peace to get their pride back and later generous aid from the west for leaving the soviet block.


in this cruel game its hard to keep your sanity, and the result are shown. israeli character is aggresive (as everyone in the middle east) but we also keep all the things we had for thousends of years, unwavering unity, aspiring to advance and extreme love for life. we are militeristic in a way but our militery is by far less formal then others
(you call your officer by name, beside from boot camp and battalion commanders and above i never called my commanders 'sir' or 'commander' only private or surname)

our way of thought is diffrent, people asked us why would we go to war for only 2 soldiers, where to us it would be weird not to strike back for our 'sons'. people ask how can a civilian give a ride to a soldier who carry a automatic assualt rifle and feel completly safe about it or not be bothered when you are sorrounded by soldiers with assualt rifles in the city(hell, after 2.4 years in the army you are allowed to go home in civilian cloths, assuming your commander isnt a dick, so beside from the shaved look and big bags you look like a civilian who carry a rifle, and people are still not bothered by it) i simply dont understand how anyone can look at a soldier as anything but a protector.

well the point is that the middle east as a whole is alien to the western mind and even we who lives here dont completly understand why things happen as they are, they just do. as long as this mindset exist there will be fighting, but its a small price. even after 60 years and 25,000 losses we are here, only stronger, its not a matter of defeating the other side anymore, they are undefeatable like us, but we can flourish, we can advance further. long lifespan, stable economy with growth of over 5% per year and advance life quality.

there is still a long way to improve and our current leaders are but a shadows of the old ones but we looking to the future with hope and stuff.

that is the greatest diffrence here, between the sides, i still look at the fatah hamas conflict and teh current inter labannese conflict and i am in shock how can this kind of behavior inside your own people can happen. how can you have peace with someone who cant even respect his own people? a leader who cant even show compassion and give rights to his people? people who see gay rights and true democracy as a weakness?

[Shdo]

you might have heard about the current talks between syria and israel, since the question here is about the 67 border(the same border that is part of the palestinian-israeli problem) i thought that this is better to be posted here then for a new thread to be made, also i am under the influance of alchohol so what the hell.


its seems that there were talks for some time now and only now they were exposed, now the problem as i see it is that the current israeli gov isnt worthy of deciding anything, with olmert being charged in corruption and bribe, he simply wont have the means to pass anything.
also its not a shock that this was announced NOW when the investigation is breathing on his neck, its just a spin to get the heat off his back. i mean its clear that nothing will come out of this talks, the syrian demend that we will promise them the golan height while they refuse to sever connection to iran, hizzbulla, or hamas, so in other words they will give us even colder peace then we have with egypt and we will give them a valuable strategic landscape while dislocating thousends of our citizens.


some background on the golan hights: they were captured in 67 as part of the 6 days war, but before that they were the staging ground for countless attacks on israeli settelments that were established below the platue. since 67 the golan height was called the eyes of the country, since they seen deep into syrian turf and israel could have known well what they are planning.

the problem with the current damend is that they insist we will promise before we even start the negotiation that we will give the golan height while they clearly saying that they will keep their close connection to hamas, hizzbullah and iran, 3 groups who clearly have an objective of detruction of our country. for this hypocratic behavior the israeli public cannot agree with the current talks and support for it is at a all time low and even the left say that this isnt a serious deal.


because of this i dont think that anything will come from those pointless talks that only draw attention from more important things( also its important to point that the syrian-israeli border is the most peacfull one for over 20 years, they syrian simply dont have the means to fight israel and with their erratic behavior (even in arab prespective they are considered extreme, for their support of persian iran against arab iraq in the 8 years war) they have aliened the rest of the region powers which left them too weak to carry on fighting with israel. so in a way the prespective in israeli is that a peace agreement with syria while they refuse to break from iran grasp will only make a greater enemy and the current relationship is better, since in their isolation they are too weak to do anything.

[gab00n]

Well, I'm all a Israel supporter. To me, Palestine lost the sense in the moment they started to attack civilian targets. Anyway I hope the Palestine state be created soon as possible to end the conflicts (or at least most of them)

Oh, thanks for the answers, Shdo. Is nice to read the israeli point of view.

Israel are just as guilty for going after civilians, the Israeli military is absolutely brutal and heartless. No side is innocent but both need to come up with a solution and end this needless conflict.

[Shdo]

less brutal then its potrayed, when your country is bombed daily every country would retaliate much harsher then israel does. keep in mind that israel is attacked from the day it was created non stop. saying that israel shouldnt defend itself is beyond stupid and naive. lets say you live in america, and mexican groups start to fire rockets into american cities, do you think america will wait for decades and wont retaliate? every country that criticize israel should admit that they would have done worse.


for example operation defensive shield, its a old one and it was criticized for israeli troops moving from building to building, which is stupid because by going from house to house israel risked her soldiers instead of simply bombing the suspected area with artillery. or for example i hear alot the stupid remark that israel use advance hi tech weapons against the palestinians who use only rockets...and if israel had used the same rockets? would that be better? if israel wouldnt fire on the cars that transport terrorist and instead will fire crude rockets that have an accuracy of a blind man with a spear?


the fact is that the same israel that is criticized when it does what should be done to protect her civilians is also expected to solve all the palestinians problems. that include medical care, thousends of palestinians are getting medical care on the back of the israeli civilian back, they get fuel and electricity from israel which is used to make rockets that fire back at the SAME power station that feed gaza, we are expected to give them work in our country when they used those workplaces again and again as staging ground for attacks (only 2 months ago it was discovered that 2 palestianian waiters tried to poisen an entire resturant in tel aviv) and countless other attacks on israeli services for the palestinian people. actually when you think about it, israel is the ONLY country in the world that is expected and prussered to supply their enemies with the same things that are used to attack and kill israeli civilians for years (be it fuel electricity and even guns!) its amazing that israel is acting like this and not like other countries who would annhilate entire cities for something similer.


no army is perfect and there would be always rotten apples but overall the israeli army is more moral then many western armies and definitly the most moral army in the middle east.


before claiming that the IDF is brutal and 'heartless' look at the whole picture, there is no such thing as a mission to go and bomb civilians, there is no such thing as pacifying the population and there are no mass graves. does anyone remember that picture of a german soldier in afganistan that was sitting on a pile of bones or something? does that mean that the german army is a brutal heartless army or that this guy is rotten? you look at how the army reacts and what it teach, and the fact is that every israeli soldier is thought not to humiliate and not to abuse, but since there are thousends upon thousends of soldiers on the border its a matter of time before you ear about an abuse here and there but those are few out of an army of thousends and are nothing but small precentage and i dont think that they reflect anything about the whole.


but i dont expect someone outside of israel to understand what is going on, when people are fed by media instead of living the conflict, they get a distorted prespective (just like i have distorted prespective on america immigration problems or canada internal problems with the natives who want autonomy). for example, many people have heard of sabra and shatila massacure where over 3000 palestinians were killed, now they werent killed by israelis but by lebannese but israel is blamed for it anyways, and i dont mind that but what i do mind is that 8 months earlier 40,000 people were killed in hama, syria, by the syrian army who tried to wipe out 200(!!!) rebels. they used air bombs, surrounded the town with tanks and after a day of bombing sent troops to kill every survivor...and the world was silent...not even half the uprising that was 8 months after in lebanon. sometimes i just wonder if anyone would even give a damn about the palestinians if someone else would have been in war with them...but i dont really need an answer since i know from facts that the world dont give a damn about black september or the kuwaitian exile of 400,000 pales into the desert, the world dont demend to give palestinians rights in the countries that house them. some1 told me that the amount of resolutions against israel is a proof that she is the 'worst' but i find it weird that a israel is killing less arabs then arab countries and is condemned even more. its laughable how many people die around the world and the world is silent while the same dictatorships that criticize israel do things much worse.

[mechaqua]

Israel are just as guilty for going after civilians, the Israeli military is absolutely brutal and heartless. No side is innocent but both need to come up with a solution and end this needless conflict.

gab00n you have a right to your opinion and i will respect it but i must disagree with you

First of all i agree with you shodo i would also like to note that the Israeli army has a code of conduct
Code of Conduct against militants and Palestinian civilians




Military action can only be taken against military targets.
The use of force must be proportional.
Soldiers may only use weaponry they were issued by the IDF.
Anyone who surrenders cannot be attacked.
Only those who are properly trained can interrogate prisoners.
Soldiers must accord dignity and respect to the Palestinian population and those arrested.
Soldiers must give appropriate medical care, when conditions allow, to oneself and one's enemy.
Pillaging is absolutely and totally illegal.
Soldiers must show proper respect for religious and cultural sites and artifacts.
Soldiers must protect international aid workers, including their property and vehicles.
Soldiers must report all violations of this code.

i am not sure if this is exact code but It is closed to the code that i have read about

i am also tired of people stating that the Jews took the Palestinian lands the ottoman empire allowed the Zionist movement to come into Palestine because they were willing to try cultivate the barren land scape( according to many of my friends who live or have visited Israel they have been very successful at this cultivation) the government of great Brittan owned the land and allowed it to be portion the Israeli government agreed the Palestinian government had apparently had relatively no say as the Arab nations told them to reject the deal and they would drive the Jews into the sea this failed and israel was born however Egypt and Jordan kept the west bank and Gaza as their own territories instead of giving it to the Palestinians and according to the UN agreement both these territories belonged rightfully to the Palestinians so a Palestinian state could have existed in 1949 but the Arab countries instead forced them into refugee camps were many of them in Syria are treated as third class citizens

Israel is also not a apartheid regime yes i have stated this before there is probably discrimination against the Arab Israelis no more then the united states does with the Latino and Black population but overall the Arab community is represented in the Knesset there are three parties maybe two. and Arab citizens have the rights that a Jewish or Christan citizens the Palestinians are right now in a civil war, and with the Olmert scandal the peace talks will most likely break down again:(

Israel is not a perfect country nor is it military completely flawless but i remember the tale of a friend of mine who is now living in the US he was
Sgt in the Israeli army he was in the West Bank to guard a engineer to fix a broken water pump in a Palestinian village, ( the Israeli government i believe at the time and still do have an agreement that they will maintain and fix the water supplies in Palestinian territory) any way the children had gathered to yell and scream at the Israeli soldiers, from out of no where a man popped out of the crowd of children and fired on the Israeli troops, they were ordered not to engage because of civilians this man continued to fire upon the Israeli soldiers using the crowd of children as cover according to my friend no one was killed but this shows that even though the troops could have and had the right opened fire or engaged the enemy combatant they showed restraint no i am not sure if this is true to the letter but i have heard other stories like this,

its not to say the Israeli army haunt gone over board Lebanon was a good example of over reacting but think of the mentality of the people who make up the majority the Jews

The Jewish People have always been different, for that they have been persecuted. they have been attacked and threatened with annihilation this has caused a Parnell a belief that the Jewish people are going to be wiped out between the pogroms in Russia the blood libel accusations of western Europe the Holocaust, Achmudenadjads threat to annihilate the jews, being exiled from nearly every country the have come too, its easy to see why we are a paranoid people the Jewish people see Israel as a haven for first time in over 2000 years they have a place they can go were they are not faced with the threat of daily persecution sure the United States in Canada are also somewhat havens but you have the Evangelical Christan who are trying to convert us and if we refuse are condemned to helL( they are nice people but a little too fantical and right wing) The US people can freely denounce the Jews were groups like the KKK and neo nazis speak the lies of Hitler. ( Despite the fact they are hate mongers they like any other American have the right to free speech) this mentality causes some policies of Israel to be a little out there

But when you look at Israel it is the most liberal country in the middle east and overall has a greater respect for religons then places like Suadi Arabia and Iran

[IngenuityGap]

Israel are just as guilty for going after civilians, the Israeli military is absolutely brutal and heartless. No side is innocent but both need to come up with a solution and end this needless conflict.

Israel doesn't shoot rockets at random into cities, they use very direct force when called for. Hell, I'd say Israel has the most restraint of any country. If Mexico was firing rockets into US cities do you really think they'd sit back and accept it as a part of every day life?

[Shdo]

as for lebanon, i wonder what is the overreaction you are talking about cuz while talking with lebannese i made some of them understand a simple truth, hizzbullah is part of the lebannese govrement, they have several ministers and several parlament members, this makes them an integral part of the govrement and the political powers of lebanon.

now lets imagine that the republicans go and kidnap mexican soldiers, can america really shake this off as "they are a free group and got nothing to do with us" ? this game where play as a ruller of a country and at the same time fire on another simply dosnt work between two soverghn countries. it might work for the palestinians since they dont have a country yet but here its somethng diffrent, here we have a country that gave the southern regions to the control of a single political party and when that political party declare war (in my service i was called to deal with their random rockets attacks several times) they simply cant wash their hands of it. so we were easy going for 6 years of attacks, and in all those 6 years lebanon refused to take control of the border and to take control of hizzbullah. and hizzbullah became the army of southern lebanon, their leaders are in the leb gov and they declared war with their actions. actually i am amazed we were able to keep our cool after they killed several troops in the years 2000-2006. i doubt another country would have been so leniant.


so i gave this argument to the lebanese guy and he said i am right, hizzbulah is part of the lebannese govrement and as a real country they cant play this game.

maybe we should do the same? claim it was likud who did all the fighting in 2006 and israel got nothing to do with it...dosnt sound very credible is it? the same goes for lebanon, with their actions or rather INACTION, they basicly declared war on us and actually a lebanese radar was used to hit one of our ships with a missile.

[mechaqua]

the overreaction i was referring to is the heavy bombing of Lebanon yes Israel had the right to engage and defeat Hezbollah yes Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government but destroying a good portion of the the infrastructure of Lebanon was not necessary, not all of Lebanon is part of Hezbollah, this also perhaps fuel more people to support Hezbollah the Israeli army was completely capable of taking out Hezbollah with out having to deal a huge blow to the infrastructure

[Shdo]

again, seperating hizzbullah from the lebannese govrement is like seperating the democrats from it. as the leaders of the country their actions have consequances. and when one govrement is fighting another its basicly a war between two countries and in a war between two countries you destroy infrastructure. not to mention we were pretty light when it came to them, we used like 10% of our air force capabilities and numbers since the estimate was that 20% would have devastate lebanon beyond repair.
the same goes for hamas, they cant be part of the govremant, attack and then expect us to give them the same services, its pretty insane way of thinking and extreme spitting into the well.

[mechaqua]

i never really said that the Hezbollah was two diffrent organizations and i cerntinly never said Hamas is two organizations either i just was expressing my discontent about the air war in Lebanon and how it set Lebanon back just as they barely recovered from what syria did to the country

[Shdo]

yea its a though luck on them, they really dont have much luck when it comes to foreign control. but ultimatly they had years to stop this. it was clear since israel left south lebanon that they can either take control over it or risk a possiable war. its amazing that for 6 years they managed to avoid war, mostly thanks for israeli patience. but in the end one sins get the hold of them, you cannot let your country be run like a model of the chaos theory and then expect everything to go well. that is why israel is constantly works against small extremist jewish groups such as ka'h. we know what would be the result if one of those would fire a rocket at al aqtza mosque so we wont let it happen. lebanon on the other hand...


being a ruler of a country is a great responsiability, it means to know when NOT to drag your country to a war. they failed in that department.

[mechaqua]

i still can say i didn't like how the air war was conducted Shodo but... i also understand you live in Israel and you have a greater perspective on whats going on there i know that Lebanon had time to recover after Israel withdrew but instead attacked Israel. But I do think that Israel had once again shown restraint by not reocupying southern Lebonon

[Shdo]

well we never wanted south lebanon, for example in 1980-2000 we were drawn into southern lebanon from the same rocket attacks and for 20 years we stayed there.
in those 20 years israel didnt settled even a single settler in lebanon, not a single city or town were made and no resources were taken, actually we spent money to improve the lives of the locals (the south lebanon army was the IDF ally and we supported their cities). many lebannese hoped that israel would have taken care of hizzbullah in that war (the silent of the arab world during the war was also because they hoped for the same thing, after all hizzbullah are shia and the sunni majority arab world isnt happy with lebanon falling to iran control.

[tranquill]

Israelis blocked the Sufa again - now with farmers! Look here:

http://samsonblinded.org/news/kibbutzniks-try-to-block-sufa-crossing-again-2247

[Shdo]

that raised an intresting point, why does israel is expected to give fuel, water, food and medicine to a population that isnt part of israel and is hostile? in fact there were several attacks ON those fuel and food passages over the years, keeping them open is a security risk, a week ago there was an attempt to kidnap people in one of the passages, a massive explosive car was destroyed before it was able to ram the place, it was closed soon after. a few weeks ago several civilians were killed when hamas members entered a fuel depot, firing on the security on those passes is a normal thing and by doing that they risk not only the israeli militery personal but the civilian workers that operate those places which are also israeli.


but gaza have a border with egypt as well, so why does people expect israel to supply the people who try to kill israelis and on the other hand dont expect egypt to do anything? the funniest thing is the electricity thing, with the power they are able to activate their workshops and make rockets that are fired at the same city that gives them the power to make qasams at the first place!

[mechaqua]

hmmm i am sorry to say this news paper or news source looks like more like a blog or a tabloid reading some of the articles make no sense nor are not backed up by credible sources. In fact this a site is very antisemitic in nature, it also produced from Russia not the Gaza or West Bank

[Shdo]

today once again israel closed fuel transfer into gaza, this comes after a mortar shell fell on the palestinian side of the crossing and wounded a palestinian worker. if this shell had fallen on the fuel depo the result would have been catastrophic.


i think israel should completly close the border, let egypt take care of gaza. our agreements about supply only apply to the PLO and in gaza its not the PLO who is in control.

[witnesstheday]

On Barak Obama: “I thought he was a man of change…but when he says that Jerusalem will remain the undivided capital of Israel, I say to him, ‘Sir, you are closing all doors to peace’. I don’t care if he’s pro-Israeli or not. My concern is about those who are pro-peace or not. U.S. Policy hasn’t changed since the ‘70’s. The U.S. Embassy is still in Tel Aviv, and the U.S. policy still says that Jerusalem is occupied”.
http://www.politicsdebate.co.uk/politics11.html

There's no point being pro-israeli or pro-palestinian if a person is not pro peace, whether they are the president or johnny hamas

[Shdo]

the door for peace is closed way before that, it is closed the moment syria say they will have peace with israel and will keep their connections with hizzbulah and iran. it is closed the moment the palestinians want all of jerusalem as well, it is closed all the times and frankly, the speeches of those possiable presidents mean nothing, in the end it will be a israeli and palestinians who will actually decide on the agreement.

EDIT:
i am optimistic and i belive that peace will happen or start to happen in the next 10+ years. i see two scenerios:

1) the next israeli gov will most likely be right wing, the left is too weak and divided while kadima(center) is more hated then ever. the next rulers of israel will be likud.
that means that they will take a more stubborn approach and will actually work much harder to topple down hamas, this will bring back the fatah and peace negotiations will continue seriously 4 years afterward assuming that a left party will rise to power.


2)in 2 years the qasams will become obsulite, anti rocket systems are been researched and one will be ready by 2011ish, with that and the wall, the palestinian resistance will become ineffective, they will be only able to face some settelments and fending off israeli attacks against heads of terror attacks, the situation with the palestinians will reach the same situation as with syria, there is no peace but it dosnt matter because the other side had been rendered almost toothless. with this the palestinian stand of resisting will only prolong the suffering while not actually reaching any goals.
the arab world will slowly back off from helping the palestinians, a process that have been in motion for over 3 decades (as time passes, the palestinians become more of a liability then asset, where in the past the arab world will go to war with israel for the palestinians, now they ask themselves 'why?' and more and more countries have relationships with israel)
as a result the palestinian stand will be severly weakend, and understanding that as time passes they become weaker and israel become stronger, will force them to sign some agreement and forsake the way of resistance. hopefuly the israeli gov at the time wont see that as a excuse to close the door to them but i doubt it because the resistance also strengthen the right wing of israel who say that negotiations will happen after the palestinians stop fighting, stop fighting will force them to enter negotiations.

[mechaqua]

You Bring up two good points Shdo I believe scenario two is less (at least in the time period you suggested) likely the Palestinians will keep getting support from Arab nations for quite sometime, although the resistance will probably weaken as Israel is growing economically strong, and has a large high tech industry and a self sufficient food supply and fresh water, the more likely is it will be around 2020 ish before scenario 2 begins to happen it will occur because the oil supplies of the middle east begin to run low the United states and Canada and western Europe are able to implement alternative fuels, or hybrids will most likely be primary mode of automobiles or nations able to tap the potential oil Supplies with minimal damage to the environment because of new technology (Canada and the US have a large un tapped oil supply, but weather and environmental issues is why it hasn't been exploited) The Middle eastern nations who choose not to try to diversify the economy outside of the oil market will need to quickly focus on saving their economy the Palestinians will take a back seat, Lebaonon and Syria will not be abl to support Palestine the sectarian violince between Palestian factions will have weakened most resistince the Israeli goverment will then be able negoitate on a level

[Shdo]

actually the support is already weakening drasticly, for example: hamas accepted iran as a religious center, to the arab world that mean alot, the hate between sunna and shia is very deep.
syria also seperate itself from the arab world by working with iran.
where in 48 and 67 the arab world agreed to go to war for the palestinians, in 71 they were kicked from jordan, in 82 they were removed from lebanon, in 91 from kuwait. as time passes the arab world give less and less.


but weakening the palestinian resistance wont be enough, the far right will pressure to stop all nagotiations until it completly stops (out of the idea that it will never truly stop so we can keep this stalmate for another 60 years) so either it will truly stops or that the left will get enough support in israel. ofcourse that every security setback only strengthen the right.

as of now there will be a cease fire in 2 days, i give it a week.


the problem here is that the cease fire is between hamas and israel, and the small organizations WONT support it for 100%. all it takes is a single 'lucky' rocket and we are on.

[mechaqua]

yeah... first of all this site is extremly anti semtic you can tell from the holocost was fake thing and the fact that it also says that jews kill christan children for passover umm could we be a little more civil please

[Shdo]

first, there is no need to go caps lock all the time, second, jew watch is one of those sites that blame EVERYTHING about the jews, the creation of both communisem and of capetalisem.

if you came here to spam this debate then dont, it will only get you banned (not that i will feel bad about it) if you want to debate, REALLY debate, then feel free to try. that means you need to present your ideas and actually support them with something a little more then a cracknut site who claim to talk about the ''truth''


but this does bring intresting topic, israel\jews had being blamed for so many things (especially opposite things, like being lazy but at the same time hard working in world dominnation, or for creating communisem and capatilisem).

the famous palestinian poet, darwish (sp) who wrote about the conflict and resistance, said that the world dosnt give a damn about the palestinians, and he is correct, the world dont give a damn about ANYONE, see darfur, but he also said that they are lucky that their enemies are the jews\israelis, since the intrest in the arab israeli conflict is much greater then other conflicts who killed much more people.


for example, many years ago, there was a small town in syria called hama, there were 200 rebels in the town. the govrement attacked and killed 20,000 people (this is the officel claim, not the people of the city claim which is closer to 40,000) with the use of tanks and artillery, followed by ground infentry.

the world was silent. 8 months later, lebannese melitia entered the sieged sabra and shatila and killed over 3000 palestinians. israel is still condemnd for something that no israeli soldier have done.

so why is this double standart? why does israel is blamed for something that another people gets to walk free with? how come that the countries that criticize israel again and again in the UN are some of the worst dictatorships in the world and israel get more resolutions against then countries who killed millions?



those are things that i actually was accused of:

israel caused the darfur genocide in order to cause a immigration wave that will reach israel and will convert to judaism (made by the president of sudan...how comfortable...)

israel caused the recent earth quakes in the region in order to weaken the temple mount foundations

israel flag represent its desire to conquare everything from iraq to egypt

creating islam in order to destroy arab and persian culture, weird considering the accuser was shia muslim, i still dont understand what the hell happend there.

[mechaqua]

It is common to blame the Jews for everything it has been done in the past in a recent debate by recent i mean a few years back the Syrian delegate accused the Jews of the blood libel which is a horrible belief that was fabricated by Radical Catholic Christan (Most Christan i hope all no longer beive this I know the Pope called this fake) they made up a passage in the Talmud that says jews must take gentile children poke them to death killing them slowly then drain the blood and make matzot out of it (yeah its that crazy) but it was a huge justification to commit purges and programs against Jews, the surprising thing was the majority of the Muslim community prior to 1920 had not believe this, now so called scholars have said the Jews continue to do this. (it didn't help the schizophrenic women claim she was Jewish and her family killed babies when she was little when on opera yeah apparently the ADL made sure this episode was never aired again) but back to the Syrian delegate comment as soon as he said it only a few delegate were quick to denounce his statement Israel, The United States, The United Kingdom, Canada, and Germany(France would afterward, so would Turkey) But what comes from this is the complete distrust of Jews, and since most people associate Jews with Israel they denounce Israel,

this speech is a UN watch video about the Human Rights Council of the UN and UN watch criticizing the council its very interesting and brings up alot of interesting points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWgZu6tcZU

[Shdo]

i know this one, but have you seen the prequal? its amazing what is considered 'fine' and what isnt


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEw0lZ3k_Y

[mechaqua]

Israel, Hamas truce begins in Gaza

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/19/israel.hamas.truce/index.html

according to CNN Israel and Hamas have began a week long cease fire

from CNN
Under the agreement, Gaza's Hamas leaders agreed to stop attacks from all Palestinian militants, and in return, Israel would halt raids inside Gaza and and gradually ease its economic blockade if the truce holds.

note its not a complete blockade as food medicine and water is still allowed in

[Tatsuki]

This is quite off topic, but,
Shdo, ani ohevet chayalim!!!:love:inlove

Todah rabah, v'yasher koach!:thumbs
( years of Bais Yakov schooling should've taught me some Hebrew, LOL!)

Thank you so much for keeping my cousins safe!!:o

[Shdo]

ve'ahayalim hohavim otah behazara!


there is something i wish i knew, i really dont understand what the hell is going on with iran. i never seen a country hate israel to such an extent when it defy every logic.

first, the iranian are shiite, the sunni world hate their guts and they hates the sunni world.
now most of the arab world is sunni, actually in operation litani, when israel first entered lebanon to take the PLO out of there, the shiite accepted israel as heros. a year later the iranian revolution came and the rest is history.

the israel-arabic conflict also dont touch the iranians. they are persians, and from talks i had with exiled iranians they told me how they hate the arabs (and for a good reason, read history)
so religiously and ethnicly the arab world and iran are quite opposite.


now not only that, before the islamic revolution there were very good relations between the two countries, extensive trade and israeli companies built the air towers that now protect their skies. all this and more was simply 180* after the revolution.


even the palestinians dont hate us like the iranians do!


my only idea to why is to make themselves more accepted by the arab world.
but the arab world forsaken the idea of war with israel in 67! (yom kipur was about honor and not about wiping israel) 2 arab countries have peace with israel and many others have unofficel trade relationship and even something that act as a limited embassy (mostly golf states).


actually there is something very intresting:
in jordan there is a massive particale accelerator that is operated by scientists from every country in the middle east, including israel and iran! many of the old hatred is only for show. everyone knows that everyone else is here to stay and the best everyone can do is to play the middle eastern game of eat or be eaten.

[gigantor21]

I have a question: Do you guys think that you'll see the situation in the Middle East stabilize permanently, in your lifetimes? Where there will be lasting peace between all the different sides? Just curious.

[Shdo]

what is stable? if you mean like in europe where you actually have one currency and a union then NO!
if you mean a cold peace like there is between israel and egypt then yes.

but ofcourse peace is relative, and in the middle east where most of the countries are dictatorships, you cant really hope for something better. also keep in mind that the mentality in the middle east is one of power, every country in the middle east follow the guidelines of power and honor to this level or another.
with such mentality there cannot be true peace and it will take 1 or 2 generations AFTER the cold peace to actually get rid of the seeds of hate.

for example, israel and egypt have peace for 30 years, and even today israelis cant go and visit cairo without hiding their identities or the autoreties will send them back for their own protection. not so long ago there were threats by the egyptian parlament members to kill the israeli embassedor if he will dare to visit the parlament.
so as you can see, even 30 years after the peace deal the peace is very shaky.
its not a peace out of good will like in europe but out of intrests.

of course, with jordan the relationship is much better but that is mostly thanks to the fact that its a monarchy( we had only 2 wars with them! great improvment...), if it was a true democracy we would be in war again.

[Tatsuki]

I have a question: Do you guys think that you'll see the situation in the Middle East stabilize permanently, in your lifetimes? Where there will be lasting peace between all the different sides? Just curious.

I hope and pray...But only G-d knows. 'till then, though, I support Israel's right to exist in every circumstance...

[Shdo]

now for a REAL peace to happen several things must happen.

on the arab side the hate teaching must stop, and they must accept israel as a jewish state just like israel accept them as arab states. when there wont be anymore hate teaching it will still take a generation or two to moderate society towards israel.


on the israeli side, the majority must stop allow the small extremists to continue and tarnish the peace process (aka, settelers and settelments) they must see themselves as what they are, a motivation to stop terror, with a peace deal they must leave back into the green line.


now this is only the israeli-palestinian problem, but the middle east is much more complex, there are rivelries everywhere!

syria and lebanon have a very murky relationship where anti syrian politicians find their death every now and then.

libya and the rest of the arab world have alot of issues.

syria and the rest of the arab world have ALOT of issues.

egypt and saudi struggle to lead the arab world, with egypt losing.

the awful and even racist exploitation of foreign workers from the arab world in saudi.

the fact that there isnt a real democracy in the arab world (actually its a good thing)

many thinks that the middle east is only arabs and israelis, that is SO wrong, there are assyrians, kurds, persians, assyrian, mamluk, barber and some more. many of those want their own countries or some kind of autonomy (i guess you dont hear much about what happened in the recent protesting of kurds in northern syria?)

the only place on earth that is more fucked up then the middle east is africa but here its even worse because of the amount of advance weapons the diffrent armies wield.


as you can see, the middle east is hateful, and its much bigger then the israel palestinian conflict, its just the most known one but hardly the most bloody.
for example, did you know that in lebanon civil war more people died then twice the amount of people who died on the israeli arab conflict?
in iran iraq war over a million soldiers died, again it dwarf the current conflict.


so in the end, i think you can see the facts and understand that even if there will be peace between the israeli and arab world there would still be warfare and hate, there are enough sides to keep the flame going forever.

[Shdo]

again.

dead bodies.

this cycle is dangerous.

background: the 2006 war started with the kidnap of 2 israeli soldiers and for 2 years the deal for their release was on and off.

what was give? hizzbullah didnt said if the soldiers are alive or dead, they knew that if we knew that they are dead (they never bring back live hostages) we wont agree to this deal. this cruel game toword the families of the soldiers cannot be forgiven.

what we gave? hundred of bodies and all the prisoners we got from hizzbullah including samir kontar.

samir kontar will be considered a hero in lebanon, but who is he and why do i hate to see him go free. he was from a group of terrorists who attacked israel in the late 70's.
they killed a policeman and went into a house, taking the father and the 4 yr old daughter with them. at the sea they shot and drowned the father and kontar smashed the girl head on the sea rocks.
since there is no death penalty in israel he wasnt harmed and in his imprisonment he even got a degree in social study.

now he is free, for rotten bodies.



this policy is only going to cause more death! when the enemy knows that they can kill our soldiers and then be quiet about it and get the same reward then they dont have any reason to keep them alive!


i say: dead for dead, living for living. if they dont give a proof of the soldier life then he or she is considered dead. hamas sent tapes of gilad shalit so we know he is alive and the price will be accordingly.
not only it will act as a protective shield on the hostages but it will also give some fairness to the deal and might even give the families some quiet.

i asked my parents to not work to bring my corpse back if there is no proof that i am alive. in case i was kidnapped.

as i see it, the mossad should have a new target, i dont want to see kontar walking away after destroying and entire family in such a brutal fashion.


EDIT: but when thinking about that, this isnt as bad as it seems, if you look at what happened today you can see the faces of the conflict.
we vowed to our soldiers that we will not abonden them and we did.
the enemy played with the feelings of the enemies to the very end in the most cruel fashion possiable while we gave them kontar, he is fatter and in good health, he had good time in prison while our men return dead.
as sad as this is, its also a reminder of what we fight for and against who.

[mechaqua]

Doesn't really have to do with the Israel-Palestine conflict i am sure everyone in Israel and watches the news but Iran has tested Rockets that are capable of carrying a nuclear warhead to Israel are being tested a few of the pictures were photoshoped however to make it look like Iran had more missiles,(the photoshopping was done by Iran)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-iran-missiles_11jul11,0,7581893.story

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/12/missile.iran/

[Ametatsu]

Are there any Palestinians posting here? Because while we have an Israeli voice in the thread, people defending the Palestinians are coming at it second-hand because they aren't there.
I don't support either side in this - not that I don't have an opinion, just that I don't think either side is enough in the right for me to be prepared to support them...I just wonder if the pro-Israel stance that most of this thread seems to have is because they are actually in the right or because it's biased by having so-to-speak experts on that side and not the other. Not disputing anything that's been said, just that in a conflict like this the Israeli interpretation of something won't necessarily be the same as the Palestinian view, so even if the facts are straight, you still don't get the full story. And you can't without equal representation on both sides, which isn't particularly apparent.

[Shdo]

keep in mind that considering the size of the forum only 9 people voted here, the debate section and this thread have little attention by its nature (we are talking about a anime forum, not political one)
as of now only 2 people took the palestinian side, one was never heard of in here (posted only for the sake of posting and debating) and the other was shortly banned since he started to attacking people on personal level while people really tried to debate with him.


in the end, no one stops anyone from supporting the palestinian side or asking hard questions in this thread, its simply that no one is intrested in doing so as of now.
as a long time youtuber 'fighter' and since i had 1 on 1 debates with lebannese and iranians i can assure to you that if there was someone who did support the other side and was willing to participate in an adult debate without meaningless slurring (that goes to both sides) then i am here.

either way, the link we have here on the subject are pretty intresting, like the treatment to palestinians in the arab world.

and one final thing, the palesitnian israeli conflict is only a part of the israeli arab conflict which is also fine to discuss as i see it.


EDIT: i must admit that i am very dissapointed that no1 chose to support the palestinian side in this thread.

[mechaqua]

Your lucky Shdo that you managed to get some rational debaters on youtube

Youtube you meet the most radical people i stooped youtube debates because when i posted my view point i tried to be rational as possible and try to not resort to name calling

i was called a k--e, filthy jew, jewbag, a subhuman, ash person(this one was new) it goes on i was the coasted with non existent Talmud passages or just blatantly insulted note a few of thes people where not even Arabs or Persians or Muslims fate they were from Canada, France, Germany, Russia, ect

Unfortunately i did not get anyone who was rational.

I have had civil debates with a few Arab friends when we came to the agreement that Israel should exist but there should be a Palestinian state. with those who were Palestinians they did not come to the same conculsion and stated that all the jews should live in the US and Canada and did not wish for the destruction of all jews, all though one Palestinian said he wished for two states.

One debate came into mind which i found was entertaining but the person whom i debated with was very arrogant I was attending a political science conference in Boston i was discussing the situation with a fellow student who was from a university in United Kingdom, i want to say Canterbury but i cannot remember he was a Jew we were both agreeing a few attractive girls came over and decided to join in then this guy came over and started disagreeing with us we of course let him have his say then he said Israel is an illegal state and that the UN had no right to create it. We humbly decline and stated good points about Israel, that its a Republic in part of the world were mostly theocracy and near absolute monarchies still exist he was an ellgent speaker. he rebutted saying Arabs are repressed we rebutted with saying that yes there is prejudices against Arabs abut they have the same rights as Israelis as long as they are citizens. this went on and on back and forth for at least an hour, he was outnumbered by then another person join in the debate because a member of his school in Brazil was watching, then the person decide since he wasn't as convincing he decided to challenge are credibility on the subject he began to list all the Palestinian Non Government organizations that he had worked for the attractive girls started to get interested and talk to him as listed off and what he did we tried to restart the debate he was preoccupied i am not even sure he was aware we left, now i have done some work for the Israeli NGO's and Jewish organizations nothing more then phone calls and clerical work nothing to brag about in my opinion but good enough to mention for internship or a law school application. Now yes the guy whom we debated with started in the debate probably to get the attention of the girls. He was not an Arab Persian or Muslim he was white pale and blond American. now i told you this story for a point (yes there was a point to all of this.

Is that not every person who hates Israel is Palestinian, or an Arab or Persian or Muslim, They are usually the ranks of the left, because many conservatives support Israel so they don't support it out of spite. No i am not saying all people who consider themselves left on the spectrum hate Israel, there are plenty on the right side who hate Israel (the kkk, neo nazi are right wing organizations that hate Israel) but just because you support Israel does not make you a conservative or a liberal.

[Shdo]

of course, there are many casses where a liberal group in europe support the agenda of religious fanatics, they call for the destruction of israel the same way as the religious fanatics do.
they even join each other rallies, completly ignoring that they are far from the same side.

btw, if someone thinks that the conflict will end with israel returning the land or something is sadly mistaken, you can just read the officel declerations of the various groups. this conflict will keep on going as long as we are alive.



and be sure that i had my share of people who just ended sending me crazy mail "listen dirty jew, i want to know your imperialist side of the story, so what do you think about the nature of the conflict? why wont you just leave and sink yourself at the buttom of the ocaen?"

that was the answer to me asking him what the hell does he want from me.


and actually i understand what you are saying about who might listen to you and who wont. as of now i didnt had a succesful chat with a palestinian, only with either iranian or gulf states arabs, and one lebannese, beside of that there is no luck with palestinians which is really bad because they are the ones we should talk to and they disagree with our existance the most.

[Shinrin]

Perhaps the religious leaders of the muslims, Jews and Christians should sit together and form a new language to the same god.
A Language not resembling Hebrew, Arabic, Latin nor English.

And in dour time, change every temple, church etc into being places for this new language, where everyone can practice there religion and instead of isolating in groups get more in common.


Globalizasion is what will in time make this kind of war fade out and dare i say in 200 years if mankind is still around I believe it'll return to city states and a global united power

It'll be interesting seeing how much our world will change once fozil fuel is the past.
Then hopefully there'll get some of the uniqueness back to the regions(architecture, clothing, music etc.)
A world like that would make travels more of an adventure

[Shdo]

your misconception is that this conflict is about religion, its not. its about two diffrent people who fight for the same piece of land.

the problem about 'globolizing' the conflict and make it unnecesery is that globolization only happen if the people want it or able to have it.
the situation in the arab world dosnt allow it, their gov's censor the internet to the extreme, the culture of 'death' and the celebration of becoming a shaid is rooted into their culture and make it impossiable to them to coexist with israel which is a vast contrast to them on most espects (shaid culture vs preservation of life, dictatorship vs democracy, hate to the west vs being part of the west, modest and traditional society vs modern society)
as long as the culture of resistance or mokaouma(sp) control the arab agenda there is little for peace and as time passes the extremist aspects of the israeli society grow and the voice that say that there is no one to talk to become stronger until we will reach a point where one side dosnt want peace and the other side gave up on even trying.

[Shinrin]

your misconception is that this conflict is about religion, its not. its about two diffrent people who fight for the same piece of land.

the problem about 'globolizing' the conflict and make it unnecesery is that globolization only happen if the people want it or able to have it.
the situation in the arab world dosnt allow it, their gov's censor the internet to the extreme, the culture of 'death' and the celebration of becoming a shaid is rooted into their culture and make it impossiable to them to coexist with israel which is a vast contrast to them on most espects (shaid culture vs preservation of life, dictatorship vs democracy, hate to the west vs being part of the west, modest and traditional society vs modern society)
as long as the culture of resistance or mokaouma(sp) control the arab agenda there is little for peace and as time passes the extremist aspects of the israeli society grow and the voice that say that there is no one to talk to become stronger until we will reach a point where one side dosnt want peace and the other side gave up on even trying.

well as I said in my comment before I see it as unlikely that anyone can hold back from the globalization.
Remember what happened to the earth is flat knowledge, it took awhile to get it through, but time is working for globalization.
Also as i said there should be no Usa, No Arabia, No Israel, No China etc etc etc in 200 years from now, it should become regions with city states once there'll be no Oil and with the sharing of the temples as i mentioned...
well some would keep the warlike attitude, but in time this should fade away(unless the populations become to large, well same problem everywhere)

They want the same land for what reasons?
Religion, Natural resources, there ancestors lived there what else?
Religion i already gave a suggestion to how to deal with in time
Natural resources will only last so far, and who's to say that we won't reach a world where the resources belong to the cites they're found at cites that could have employers from anywhere.
And ancestors well, both parts had there ancestors there so it should just be about buying your own house not something stupid like someone has more right to it then others.
This is how i see the future in 200 years if the populations are not gone through the roof.


In dour time everywhere will likely become like that, removes some uniqueness, but would be for.


Or if one were to say what we need in real life is a true villan, someone that is as much of a pest to everyone and allied to no country.
Something for everyone to stand together on.

So you could say evil might actually be what could save the world

[Shdo]

there is no oil in israel, the conflict is about existance in the same piece of land.
the arab world (at least they used to, now its divided) refused to accept a non arab country among themselves. as a result they went to war that caused the current crisis.

as for the city states, this havnt stopped warfare in the past and wont stop it even if it happen again.
also lack of natural resources wont stop war, it will only change it. instead of oil they will use electricity from solar panels. war will remain as long as people wish for it regardless of natural resouces.
btw, cities dont have resources of their own, this comes from mines that are not inside the cities. globolization wont cause cities to become indepandant, especially in the middle east.

religion, no side will give up their religion, we jews proved that for over 2000 years of death threats and pogroms and the muslims are even more fanatics, this wont change with globolozation, not to mention that the globolization is used, information is coming in but only what they want is actually destributed. almost every arab country have either low amount of internet users, censorship or both. add to this a fanatic doctrine and you have groups that just take what they want from the globolization to hurt the same globolization (how to make better bombs, how to use websites to transfer information and money)


as for the villan thing, it wont work either. there were villans in the past, for example, sadam, he invaded kuwait and threatened saudi.
then america invaded and sadam fired scuds on saudi and israel (even if israel didnt had any intention to get involved) so now israel and the strongest arab country are under attack by the same enemy...so would they unite? hell no! the americans and the world made it clear to israel that she must NOT join the fight because it will make the arab allies of the coalition to leave the coalition!
so israel simply stood there and quietly got bombarded just for the sake of the coalition well-being.
even when the same enemy attacked both groups they refused to work with us, that is how it goes.


EDIT: example two-


in 78 palestinians from south lebanon fired more and more rockets on israel, so israel invaded and pushed them back to the litani river. then israel left but went inside again in 82.
at the time lebanon was in civil war, shiite, sunni, druze, christians and palestinians factions went to a bloody war. when israel went in and kicked the palestinians organizations out of lebanon (and into tunisia via agreement) they were welcomed as heros, but soon after the situation reached the level of today, where hizzbullah (shiite) who once cheered for the israeli soldiers, now want to kill israelis more then the palestinians do.

alliances in the middle east dont last for long.

[Shinrin]

Indeed the weapons of the future will become more advanced, but if history proves itself it will also become much harder to make, and if not be a huge facility that can quite easily get spotted.

Every man can through a rock, everyone can hit with a stick, then the next step is bow and arrows, crossbows etc etc.
Each of them takes more time then the previous one to make for the individuals.

Sadam was a dictator and a cruel man indeed, but he was not powerful enough to fill that spot of the "perfect" evil needed to make people form alliances as such.

Giving up your religion???
No that is not what i meant, what i meant is everyone should have there own religion, If someone want there God to be a partyman then let em, if someone want there god to be a stone let em, but the larger a faith become the more power and undoubtedly abuse of that will follow.
I just say that every temple church etc should not be opened for just one faith, and to get the people closer they should create this new language where no handicaps will be given to one language over another.


Faith is a good thing, It's main strength will always be a light for people in there darkest hours.
But to say that everything in the old books is the ultimate truth or saying everything is wrong is foolish

Religion has done many good deeds, though you could say with "empty" threats and promises that can help as guidelines for the people.
Many of these guidelines however are far outdated, you can believe em if you want, but the societies have changed so much that there is stuff that will have to be updated.

[Shdo]

as for religion in the conflict, its a fuel to a already high flame. while the conflict itself is political, religion part in it is major.

i can only give the israeli point of view: the islamic mosques are known to inflame the masses, fridays are very dangerous since its the day islamic ceremonies take place.
as long as those mosques keep inflaming their people a outbreak will most likely happen again and again.
add to this the unbending position of the resistance orgz and you got a enemy that belive that he is doing god job and his job is to kill you. a very bad position for future talks.

on the israeli side we have our own problems with religion. the settelments are mostly 'conservative' (the israeli definition of conservative is diffrent then the rest of the world definition, its better called 'traditionals' or semi-religious) and they are also fueled by religion.
but unlike the palestinian side, our side have much greater control over its religious people and they must abide to law. also most rabbies preach against vengance after terror attack and say that keep living is the only vengance that should be executed.

still the fact remain that there are religious extremist on both sides, but at least the israeli extremist are under control while the palestinian extremists are IN control.
this will negate any attempt to reach a common ground in the future.

[hell monster]

^^No, they don't. Mosques' speakers don't inflame anyone. They teach them about Islam: How to practice the religion, how to embrace their believes and faith, how to believe in God, to appreciate Prophet Mohammad. They don't tell them "go kill this and that". Killing is wrong in Islam unless you are defending yourself or your family and friends, or fighting for your religion, and country. Does that make Muslims bad? I don't think so.

Another thing, Fridays are very special to Muslims but not because of you said. Fridays aren't dangerous. It's like you're saying Xmas is dangerous. Dude, you have no idea about Islam, eh?

Anyway, I have to tell you I don't support Israel. I never did and never will, for reasons I have no time to talk about because it's futile.

[Shdo]

i am talking from expirience, fridays are the days that riots starts right after they leave the temple mount.

as for the mosque things, perhaps that is what it SHOULD be and what happens in other places but in jerusalem its not the case. the fact IS that they go in and come out pissed as hell after they been preached inside.

EDIT: this thread and this couple of posts arent about islam, i really dont think that a debate about islam in general should be in this thread, i am talking about how islam is used in this particular conflict, and it is used if we like it or not.

[hell monster]

^^I know what this thread is all about. I just didn't like the idea that mosques are riot-breeders. And I still support Palestinians, they suffered so much. So many people died, and so many lost their homes. No electricity, no water, no food. This is a thread about I-P conflict, not about Islam. I am not supporting Palestine because of Islam. I think that the land should return to its rightful owners.

[Shdo]

who is the rightful owner is open to debate. my standing is that the palestinians could have a state already in 48 but they chosed war, which didnt went as they planned (less israeli dead then they expected, only 1%) the result was that they were under egyptian and jordanian rule for 17 years. in those 17 years they could make a state and still refused, chosing to inflame the ara again.

in 67 they were taken over, and only then the settelments and the occupation started. in the end it was their choices from 1918 to 1967 that brought them to their situation today.

and even today, instead of using the money they get from the countries of the world into walfare and schools they preffer to use it for guns and corruption.
ofcourse you can say that they use it for guns because of the israelis but they did that before there was even israel, they just continued at the same trend.

from the declaration of the state of israel:
...it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations...
...WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.ht m
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/dindfasc.jpg

^^from day one israel offered peace, and that include peace to the 'should be' palestinian state that was suppoused to be created beside israel but chosed not to^^

in the end this conflict is about acceptance, the arabs dont accept israel while israel tried to accept the arabs. every conflict since then originated in the first war, where one side hoped for peace and the other refused to accept a non arab state among them.



in case anyone was wondering what the partition is about you can look at the map here.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/partitionnick.gif
as you can see the jewish state is mostly in the negev desert, which is still barely populated by today, so the struggle is mostly about nothing and only caused the palestinians to lose land.
http://www.mfah.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/FFF1B96A-8C62-4FC7-A13E-FAA7EEF732FB/0/MFAG007u0.gif
this is from 67 and what the palestinians (or rather the arab world) asks now.

[Gear#7(dizzy)]

I hope war will end soon, it's painful for everyone..

[mechaqua]

my grandfather ever the pessimist

My grandfather will disagree on everything find something wrong with every decision understand my grandfather was Holocaust survivor, he was sent away from Germany on the kinder transport raised in an orphanage, in Brittan till he was 16 then he had to find work most of his family was killed his step mother and father managed to survive, however his family was well off before the war his grandfather sent money into Switzerland but died before he could give the account number he left to America married my grandmother another holocaust survivor, he then joined the Army served as a Infantry GI in Korea manged to survive however these experiences have made him very pessimistic about everything. I was celebrating my birthday down in the states when i got into him about this conversation he loves to talk politics more or less rant

He agrees that The Arab nation despite the opportunity to create a Palestinian state never would and personally he believed if one was created in 1948 Jordan Egypt and Syria would have just conquered the state anyway under the pretense that the allowed the Jews to establish a state or some bull crap, he said even if the Jews had never established a state There would be no Palestine it would just be part of Jordan Syria and Egypt, He believes (this is not my opinion ) If Israel didn't exsist the arabs would fight amongst them selves(its a bit bigotted) He also belvies that Israel will be the flash point of a nuclear war

the sceniero that he stated (this is if Iran decide to attack Israel before this) on was once oil becomes so finite in the middle east many of the once rich oil nations will be in trouble, (The UAE and Bahirn seems to the only nations preparing for this inevitability) the Arab nations will not have much support from the west China either throgh the devlopment of alternative energy new drilling technologies that allow for Canadian and Russian oil fields to be easily accessed the governments begin to lose oil revenues they are no longer able to support the massive welfare programs for its citizens Saudi Arabia UAE Kuwait Bahrain Qatar male citizens get large government checks each year) they quickly need to find a scapegoat Israel which is growing economically by then will be a major economic power the nations will begin saying that the jews have stolen the land ya know the typical rhetoric used to stir up anger against Israel they attack, Israel despite having air suppeority technological and military prowess will be hopelessly outnumbered Israel (if the US and The West don't intervene that's if the west and the US are still strong enough) Israel will use its nuclear arsenal i mean Hypothetical Nuclear arsenal to take the middle east and possibly the world with it in my grandfathers words a screw you for four thousand years of oppression and genocide.

My Grandfather says however he doesn't care what happens in the middle east i asked does he support Israel or Palestine? the two sides need each other otherwise they would fight amongst themselves.
He also says we as Jews should have known better when we choose restate his words "we picked the on g-d damn place in the middle east that didn't have any oil and was considered sacred to three religions that never get along we should have picked Kuwait and that strip in Saudi Arabia yeah the Arabs would have been pissed but they would have gotten over it"

These are not my opinions but the opinions of a man of the older Jewish generation.

[Shdo]

i wouldnt say that this is the opinion of the older generation, but of some.

as for the situation of a nuclear war, arab invasion will not cause a nuclear war. for example of the real world, in 1973 when the arab armies attacked seriously for the first time and cought us unprepeared in yum kippur, even if they could have used the momentum to push even further into israel they wouldnt because of the fear of crossing the lines.
the 73 war was not to destroy israel, it was to force israel into negotiations and about honor.

i dont think that the arab world really have the means or will to try to destroy israel, fearing the possiability that dimona isnt one of the most succesful hoax's ever.

a nuclear war might happen in two ways:

A-iran get nuclear weapons and actually attack israel, this is the best scenerio because israel have the 'hets' missile and its a active defence screen against balistic missiles. now if iran do fire a single missile on israel with a nuclear warhead, it will be destroyed and iran will follow. not by israeli response but by the world.

the same goes if iran decide to nuke ANY country, this wont be tolerable by the world. with iran new missiles that can reach even europe you have enough reasons to do that.

B-this is the worst scenerio because only intel can stop it and that is a department that might and might not work.

iranian dirty bomb is given to a terror organization and they blow it in israel. israel might respond in either a similer attack (only bigger i assume) or with a real nuclear strike.



either way, it seems that the world dont understand that nuclear power and religious fanatics work only in one direction, and the world dont understand another thing. while israel is sure more closer then the rest of the west, this closness give us the means to respond and defend while the west wont have the same chance. in 20 years someone will be nuked.

[HaNa]

I have noticed this thread for a while, but chose to ignore it..but you know I can't seem to close my eyes about it forever especially when we have none about Palestine point of view..

I never and will never support Israel as long as I'm alive..because how could I support an invader to country related to Palestine.. They came from different parts in the world without having a specific land and invaded Palestine territory to create a independent country and now since they can't erase Palestinian people completely, they ask for peace..don't make me laugh.. As long as they exist in Palestine, there'll never be a peace.. it's just an excuse to show the world that they want a concurrence and the bad people who refuse to it is Palestinians and Arab people.. it's like saying "see we just want peace and they want war.." well any normal nation will live to protect its land, honor and resources and if you think this is a terrorism, then what can you call the killing action from Israel army who can shot the children with a fine face.

Oh yeah you'll never believe it since you have never seen these kind of news in your political channels (cnn,fox).. And of course any news report comes from Arabian side, it should be fake.. but you know ignoring and hiding the facts while spreading the news that serves your purpose and make a good reputation of you Israel won't be covered forever you know..

Watch this video and evaluate it by yourself.. you could see it's fake if you wish.. but here in our country the media is very clear and honest with itself.. they're pictures and videos that have been taken from journalists who exposed their live to danger just to show the world the real truth..and some of them are actually have been killed by Israel army you know why..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dTRm8uyutdg

And you're still looking for peace and agreement in place where the hatred, inequity, humiliation and violent exist.. it's impossible to erase these aspects so easily, even the black people are still not completely accepted to the society I believe.. There's no place for evil to live with good, it will only end with a disaster..

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/9734/palestinemapaj1.jpg

this map of Palestine just shows you how much the inequity applied even at dividing the land when its their own land (Palestine) and yet they have no right to live freely in it.. Don't say Israel won the war.. of course they won it since they have these fatal and powerful weapons that are being given especially form America while the poor Palestinians have nothing but simple guns and bombs and they even use stones to fight the big tanks of a hug army of Israel.. So do you blame Palestinians when they choose to blow themselves up ..Do you think they have a choice against a well equipped army?

What can you say.. Even the Israel children and people are suffering..all I could say do the invaders have a right to complain when they fetch this to themselves by invading a land they don't own..

You have to keep in mind Israel have America and the world alongside it while even Arab countries (the government) have betrayed Palestine, even though they still haven't given up a hope because they know God besides them..

Here're a bunch of videos if you want to see more about the suffering of Palestinians.. it's better to watch till the last minute..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RD30g-ovuUA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0bdbA2Ka3Bo--> Palestinian Children are Beaten by Israeli Soldier
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kpGEppifN24

[Shdo]

there are several problem with your post, first is the map.

the 1946 completly ignore several things:

A- the land was under british rule and not palestinian, and before that it was under ottoman rule for 500 years and before that by the diffrent caliphs who had their capitol in bagdad saudi and other places.
there was never a palestinian state or kingdom. so saying that this was a palestinian terrotory (the green color in 1946) is false from a political point of view.
B- if the map represent where they lived then its also false. the map simply took the big jewish settelments, painted them in white and the painted the rest with green as if there were villages everywhere, and that include the negev deseret where there is barely any settelments even today.

then we move to the next maps, the partition map:
as you can see most of the jewishstate is in the negev which was and still is pretty empty (around 5% lives there).
but then you jump from 47 to 49 and show how much was taken from the palestinians. but you forget what happend in 48, somthing that included invasion of 5 arab countries to destroy israel who agreed from day one to the partition and peace.


you say that its not true that one side (arab) wants war yet you say in the same comment that there will never be peace, never be any negotiation as long as the jews are there...


the war was won without american help until after the 6 days war. and while israel used french weapons (you learned something new) until 67, the arab world used soviet weapons, as in the soviet superpower! boths sides were very well equipped and the palestinians had several countries to support them.

for over 90 years they fight, before israel had settelments or tanks or even was a state, in all those years of fighting the israelis improved, economicly and socialy. by hard work israel is now much stronger then the palestinians. and through all this fighting they never thought about trying to go to peace. not in 1918, 1948, 1967 and not today.
a people is responsiable to its own fate, the palestinians chose war again and again and the result is their horriable situation.



either way, you proved again a sad fact. while on the israeli side the majority wants peace and the extremists want war, in the palestinians side its the other way around.
you even rationalise killing of children because they are israeli.
at the same time you will never see a israeli newspaper or anything, celebrating murder of palestinian children.


EDIT:
action and result, this is what i thought when i watched one of your videos where a soldier search on a kid for explosives.
is it a soldier cruelty?
or a result of this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03t7E

the point is that the palestinians brought themselves to their situation.

[HaNa]

there are several problem with your post, first is the map.

the 1946 completly ignore several things:

A- the land was under british rule and not palestinian, and before that it was under ottoman rule for 500 years and before that by the diffrent caliphs who had their capitol in bagdad saudi and other places.

I know.. you think you'll teach me about my own history.. British colonized Palestine and many other arab countries beside it and because of British help the Jewish were able to enter Palestine..

there was never a palestinian state or kingdom. so saying that this was a palestinian terrotory (the green color in 1946) is false from a political point of view.

OH MY GOD.. so you're trying to erase a reality of history just to have the right to live in it.. Palestine was an Arabian country even before the creation of religion (Jewish, Christian and Islam) and its geographical location is one of the proof (in Arabian peninsula).. I don't know what kind of corrupted history they teach you in your country.. but no one knows better than the people themselves about their own history.. denying the truth of our history won't play a trick on me, play it elsewhere..

Read here are the events of Palestine history before prophecy era ..

Historical background

Major events

2500 1250 BC. M
:
Commissioner ancient peoples settlement east of the Mediterranean (Alamurion, Canaanites, Alarameon, Hebrews). They originally came from Arabian Peninsula.

1250 923 BC. M
:
Penetration of the tribes, Palestinian and Israeli control over Palestine.

1004 923 BC. M
:
Age Kingdom united Israeli in Palestine in the era of King David and his son Solomon.

923 BC. M
:
The death of King Solomon and the division of Saudi Consolidated Kingdoms "Israel" and "Samaria."

721 BC. M
:
Elimination of the State of Judea at the hands of "Sergei II" King of Assyria.

597 BC. M
:
Elimination of the State of Samaria at the hands of "Nebuchadnezzar victory" king of Babylon.

539 332 BC. M
:
The rule of Palestine by the Persians and allow those who wish Almsbeyen of the Jews in Babylon to return to Jerusalem.

332 63 BC. M
:
Alexander the Great's invasion of Palestine, ruled by his successors of the Ptolemies and Alslloukiin.

63 av. M 395 m
:
Roman occupation of Palestine and governed by the Vice-Consuls.

135 m
:
Liquidation of the Jewish presence in Palestine during the era of Emperor "Hadrian"

395 636 m
:
The division of the Roman Empire and the subordination of Palestine Byzantine rule.

636 m
:
Fatah Arabs of Palestine in the era of Caliph Omar ibn Al-Khattab and the start of the Arab and Islamic government of Palestine.

In 1099
:
The start of Crusades against Palestine.

Oct. 2, 1187
:
Liberate Jerusalem from the Crusaders at the hands of the rule of Salah al-Din.

In 1291
:
Crusaders final exit from Palestine.

In 1516
:
Ottoman occupation of Palestine after the defeat of Mamelukes.

1831 1940 m
:
Unification of Egypt and Syria during the era of Muhammad Ali.

In 1882
:
The beginning of the first wave of mass Jewish immigration to Palestine


B- if the map represent where they lived then its also false. the map simply took the big jewish settelments, painted them in white and the painted the rest with green as if there were villages everywhere, and that include the negev deseret where there is barely any settelments even today.

Here you go again.. Don't just throw off a real evidence of history just to make up your own story and history.. this is a reality if you can't accept it, it doesn't mean you can erase it.. oh you just said a Jewish settlement..then you admit they're invaders..

then we move to the next maps, the partition map:
as you can see most of the jewishstate is in the negev which was and still is pretty empty (around 5% lives there).
but then you jump from 47 to 49 and show how much was taken from the palestinians. but you forget what happend in 48, somthing that included invasion of 5 arab countries to destroy israel who agreed from day one to the partition and peace.

I didn't jump from 47 to 49.. but this is the history that I can't change. Jewish came to Palestine when it was under British control in 19 century.. in 1917 when Balfour Declaration has showed up, Jewish emigration continues on increasing for about 30 years and they established many properties and elevated their own trade to make their root strong. In 1947, under the pressure they put on British for asking to start dividing Palestine and institute a new country for them (Israel), this issue was taken to United Nations.. Then the decision application of dividing Palestine exploded the war between Arab and Jewish since they want to take the land by force.. Jewish won the war and took over Palestine and the conflict is still continuing..

The one who started the war were the invaders (the Israel) and no one of Arab countries can accept the partition and peace of Palestine, only if they were forced to it especially in the early ages..

you say that its not true that one side (arab) wants war yet you say in the same comment that there will never be peace, never be any negotiation as long as the jews are there...

Don't you understand what I'm trying to say or are you trying to play an innocent with me.. I said Arab countries didn't want the war from the start, but the invaders (Israel) came and started to extend their clout in an Arabian country (Palestine).. Do you expect to see a welcome party *sigh*.. of course any country in the world won't live in peace when they have a settler in their own land that tries to force its control and power….

the war was won without american help until after the 6 days war. and while israel used french weapons (you learned something new) until 67, the arab world used soviet weapons, as in the soviet superpower! boths sides were very well equipped and the palestinians had several countries to support them.

Where do you get these information from? The Palestinian had no one but arab countries (mostly Egypt).. and they didn't use any foreign weapons.. Even though their weapons were simple, they were able to defeat Israel until the interference occurred from Europe and America side that started to equip them of the heavy weapons…

Read the details of the war if you can't believe it yourself

The Brotherhood has established training camps for youth who have volunteered for jihad, and after completion of military exercises, arrived in the first battalion of the Mujahideen led by the martyr "Talaat Youssef" to the Palestinian territories in a month (spring 1367 another e = February 1948), has followed the Mujahedeen Brigades of v