Adjuchas and Vastro Lordes in the Espada [Archive]

View Full Version : Adjuchas and Vastro Lordes in the Espada

Llama

07-05-2007, 12:18 AM

I believe Kubo pretty much told us through the silhouettes who in the Espada were Adjuchas and which ones were Vastro Lordes. The Adjucha silhouette looked like Yammy. Yammy is the weakest Adjuchas in the Espada. Than he showed us a silhouette of a Vastro Lorde that looked like Ulquiorra. This leads me to believe Ulquiorra would be the weakest Vastro Lorde in the Espada. So Espada 10, 8-5 would be Adjuchas(9 was a Gillian but he's dead so...). Espada 5 being the strongest Adjuchas in the Espada. And Espada 4-1 would be Vastro Lordes. Espada 1 being the strongest Vastro Lorde in the Espada. The only problem is that we don't know all of the Espada and their numbers yet.

Discuss.

Beee

07-05-2007, 01:17 AM

Your theory seems quite right, since Grimmjaw doesn't really have a human form when he releases so it probably means that he's a Adjuchas and that the ones below him as also adjuchas. And since it's almost certain that Ulquiorra is a Vastro Lorde, It would mean that he and the ones above are the same as well. What reminds a mystery if whether #5 is Vastro Lorde or Adjuchas, since at the time, Ulquiorra and Yami were the only known arrankar so it would've been much more practical to use them than to use some random forms.

Geta Boshi

07-05-2007, 01:23 AM

As Aizen said Perfected the Espada which is pretty ambiguous he could have used other way to frame his sentence replaced but he chose perfected . I too think the top tier maybe be VL . Replacing all the 10 Espada seems a little far fetched as we have grown to like some

Primera Espada

07-05-2007, 01:31 AM

didn't the original explinatin for a vastarode describe their intelligence, not their power?

WHich means that Noitra, who doesn't seem that bright, could be the strongest, but still an ajuuca.

And Szayel, who's really smart, but not too strong, could be a vastarode.

Llama

07-05-2007, 01:39 AM

I believe Vastro Lordes are the smartest and strongest Menos type hollows. So if the Menos is strong and yet dumb then he's not a Vastro Lorde, such as Yammi. If the Menos is smart and yet weak then he's not a Vastro Lorde, such as Szayel. The Menos would have to be both strong and smart to be Vastro Lorde, such as Ulquiorra. That's what I believe.

And Szayel only seems to be smart with technology and not battle smart.

Geta Boshi

07-05-2007, 01:47 AM

VL are the most powerful class of menos so when they do hybridize their power should increase . So a VL Arrancar will be more powerful than a Adjucas Arrancar .

Llama

07-05-2007, 01:50 AM

Which we pretty much saw with Ulquiorra and Grimmjow.

Primera Espada

07-05-2007, 01:53 AM

I was re-reading everything and it does seem to indicate that vastarodes are both the strongest AND smartest.

It also seems that the more human you become in the arrancarization, the more powerful you get.

Case in point, the lower end espada, like Yammy and Arroniero, compared to Grimmjow.

The fact that Ishida mentions "100% chance" of being human is vastarodes leaves me wondering if that means NONE of the espada (with possible exception of Noitra) are vastarodes, since they all have mask fragments.

Llama

07-05-2007, 01:57 AM

Mask fragments means nothing. And Noitora has pretty much convinced me he's not a Vastro Lorde. I believe he's 5 and the strongest Adjucha in the Espada. And it would be kind of sad that Aizen was able to only obtain 1 Vastro Lorde throughout all that time he was in HM. And it has been implied that he's been in HM for awhile. Secretly of course before his betrayal.

Primera Espada

07-05-2007, 02:06 AM

well I'm actually more thinking that he's put the vastorodes in the ranks of the arrancar but not let them know.

Like Wonderweiss, etc.

They may be around, and waiting for the espada to get killed off.

Llama

07-05-2007, 02:12 AM

Why would Aizen wait? He'd replace them right away I believe. And we don't know if Wonderwice is one though I also believe he is. But I also believe Wonderwice's full potential is still not reached yet, and this why he isn't in the Espada yet.

Gamma

07-05-2007, 02:30 AM

100% Human form is what Ishida said. Maybe that is why Szayel doesn't have a hole? Sounds kinda wacky, but who knows.

Llama

07-05-2007, 02:45 AM

But Szayel doesn't have the strength of a Vastro Lorde nor does he seem to be battle smart. Making him not a Vastro Lorde. And him not having a hole seems like a plot hole since all hollows have holes(Although his hole could be hidden or something). Even the silhouette of the Vastro Lorde had a hole(Which is most likely Ulquiorra before he was Arrancarized.

Gamma

07-05-2007, 02:51 AM

It was more of a shot in the dark.

Though I still do think Szayel could be a Vast Lord due to his intelligence. He could be a really weak one for whatever reason. There was a Gillian in the Espada... anything is possible.

SiSL

07-05-2007, 03:55 AM

I don't think there is more than 5 Vast Lords in current Espada.

And I do think Szayel is one of them, may be lower level Vast Lord, but still one of them.

Llama

07-05-2007, 04:33 AM

Szayel isn't a Vastro Lorde. That would mean Aizen has 8 Vastro Lordes. Because 9 is dead and was a Gillian. And Yammi is a Adjucha. I doubt Aizen has that many. Szayel is weak compared to a lot of the Espada. Intelligence alone doesn't make a Menos type hollow a Vastro Lorde. Strength also plays a big role in it to. Like I said, when it comes to strength and intelligence with a Vastro Lorde, they go hand in hand. Can't have one without the other. And Szayel hasn't even been shown to be battle smart nor strong. He is only smart in technology.

And the Gillian being in the Espada was explainable. But a Vastro Lorde so weak that he must be placed at 8 and isn't stronger then some Adjuchas? That is crap. Do you know how big of a plot hole that would be. There's a reason why Vastro Lordes are superior to the other two classes.

I believe Aizen has 4 Vastro Lordes. And I believe it's 4-1. Not 8, 4, 2, and 1 or something like that. That's just wack.

Beee

07-05-2007, 04:54 AM

I don't think Szayel is Vastro Lorde either. Let's not forget that ordinary Vastro Lorde were described as being stronger than any captain in SS. That means the arrankarized version of a VL would be uber powerful. Szayel is pretty smart, but he definetely doesn't have the strength of a VL.

And I think we should take off the myth saying that "adjuchas are dumb". I don't think there really is anything proving that aside from the fact that Yami is a little stupid. (and then again, come on, he's not THAT stupid...) It would be more normal to say that adjuchas have average intelligence. besides, we probably can't even tell by intelligence if a arrankar was a VL or otherwise since most arrankars have human-like intelligence, even gillians.

Llama

07-05-2007, 05:01 AM

Gamma

07-05-2007, 05:16 AM

Szayel could be the odd one out. He could be a VL that wasn't quit skilled in battle but rather than intelligence. It's possible. And it doesn't mean there are 8 Vast Lord within the Espada. Going by your logic, that would mean if one Gillian, the 9th, would me there are 9 Gillians in the Espada. Obviously that isn't the case. We could have 5 VL in the Espada or we can have none. We'll know eventually.

Llama

07-05-2007, 05:19 AM

Well obviously our logics are different. Because Szayel being a Vastro Lorde just seems impossible to me. Maybe #5 is Vastro Lorde but he's still too much of a mystery. Right now I'll just go with 4. But you're right. We'll know eventually. Something we agree on. :)

SiSL

07-05-2007, 05:20 AM

Szayel isn't a Vastro Lorde. That would mean Aizen has 8 Vastro Lordes. Because 9 is dead and was a Gillian. And Yammi is a Adjucha.

You are so sure Szayel is not Vast Lord? Got insider info?

Considering a Gillian is inferior to Adjucha, so how come #9 become over and Adjucha in power? That gives exact chance a superior can be lower ranked than inferiror...

Vast Lord's combat abilities is said to be over a captain.

Combat =\= Strength

Llama

07-05-2007, 05:23 AM

SiSL

07-05-2007, 05:26 AM

#9 was the only exception. No other Arrancar has the ability to evolve forever. And I'm sure he's not Vastro Lorde because he's so weak. I don't care about his intelligence. He doesn't have the strength which he doesn't cut it to be a Vastro Lorde.

#9 was only exception of "a Gillian being inside Espada"

There is nowhere stated. You seem to stuck to an idea that if "X" is "VL", anything higher rank than "X" must be VL. This is plain wrong and shows exceptions can occur.

There is no chance to know overall strength level of a being after Arrancarized depending on WHEN they are hougyokued...

Random Hollow

07-05-2007, 05:34 AM

Are there really vastro lordes outside the espada in existance in HM or does aizen have to create them?

Llama

07-05-2007, 05:38 AM

#9 was only exception of "a Gillian being inside Espada"

There is nowhere stated. You seem to stuck to an idea that if "X" is "VL", anything higher rank than "X" must be VL. This is plain wrong and shows exceptions can occur.

There is no chance to know overall strength level of a being after Arrancarized depending on WHEN they are hougyokued...

You just don't get it. #9 said, "I'm the only Gillian in all of the Espada. Generally a Gillian wouldn't have enough power to make it into the Espada and yet I was admitted and given the #9. Do you know why? It's because out of all of the Arrancar I'm the only one that can evolve itself without end!"

No other Arrancar has his ability. Which means an Adjucha can't evolve past the power of a Vastro Lorde because they can't. Even the weakest Vastro Lorde should be stronger then the strongest Adjucha. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.

You can keep believing in your fairy tale but I'm done explaining.
Are there really vastro lordes outside the espada in existance in HM or does aizen have to create them?
I don't think Aizen can create a Vastro Lorde.

Gamma

07-05-2007, 05:41 AM

The point SiSL is making is that there are exceptions and him and I believe Szayel is an exception.

Llama

07-05-2007, 05:49 AM

Sexta Espada

07-05-2007, 05:57 AM

I don't think even though Octavo Espada maybe a genius or crafty with his research and etc. Take note that Aizen rank his espada through strength level. So, yes Szayel Aporro may have advantage with his enemies through putting organism as a analyzer towards other lower ranking arrancars, but Grimmjow's power level is stronger than Szayel.

Another thing with Vastro Lorde, they're already advanced with or without hogyouku. Basically the purpose of Hogyouku was to make their true form into a form of zanpakutou.

Gamma

07-05-2007, 06:02 AM

I just have one question. How do you think he's an exception when his intelligence with technology proves nothing? It's just pure speculation which will end up wrong in the end. At least I have evidence which points toward Ulquiorra being a Vastro Lorde. And if he's a Vastro Lorde then 4-1 are Vastro Lordes. Saying any other Espada is a Vastro Lorde is pure speculation.

And you realize Kubo is trying to build up the Vastro Lordes. #8 is not building up. In fact it's the exact opposite.

His intelligence is grand. Sealing Bankai and Ishida's weapon, and not to mention the fraccion being his medicine. He has the intelligence if you ask me.

I never disagreed on Ulquiorra being a Vast Lord. I'm well aware the silhouette Kubo used fits Ulquiorra just perfectly.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's just speculation. There is no harm done. And besides, it buys time to talk about a manga we all like to talk about.

I just see it as Szayel being a result of a weaken Hougyoku that Aizen desperately grabbed Orihime for. He probably concluded that he needed it fixed when he saw what it did to Wonderwice. Apparently a Hougyoku that is weaken is no good.

I think everyone in the Espada are all replaceable with stronger warriors. An example of this would be what happened to the Privaron Espada.

Llama

07-05-2007, 06:08 AM

Another thing with Vastro Lorde, they're already advanced with or without hogyouku. Basically the purpose of Hogyouku was to make their true form into a form of zanpakutou.
What he said. Now I'm off to bed.

SiSL

07-05-2007, 06:17 AM

I'm not Szayel fan, actually I hate him. But that does not change my opinion. He is exceptionally intelligent. As long as someone beats the opponent, who cares if by brute force or intelligence?

Point is, there is NO, single, zero, nada clue that any may be VL or Adjucha. Kubo did not tell anything about any of their past so far with exception of #9.

Beee

07-05-2007, 06:23 AM

Well a Vastro Lorde isn't stronger then any captain. It says they are stronger then the average captain. Which means I believe Ukitake's full strength would rival that of a released full strength Arrancarized Vastro Lorde such as Ulquiorra. Same for Shunsui. And Yamamoto is stronger then a released full strength Arrancarized Vastro Lorde since he's just as strong or stronger then Aizen. Though I believe once Aizen uses the Hougyoku on himself he will be stronger then Yamamoto.

I know the translation that says the Vastro Lorde's strength is greater then that of any captain's but that is inaccurate. If this were true then it wouldn't take ten to destroy Soul Society but maybe just 3.

how do you know it's innacurate? Is it because they said it was inaccurate or is it because you just don't believe it? It's it's the former, I'd have to believe you but i don't think it is. But yes I also think it's not actually above ALL captains, but at least the great majority of them. (Yama, shunsui, Isshin and Urahara being exceptions... with Uki being a good step behind due to his disease)

I don't think Yama and co. can be just as strong as Full Arrankarized VL, because arrankars/vaizards have a huge edge over shinigami and hollows. (If a VL is as strong or stronger than a captain, the fully-arrankarized version is obviously much much stronger than a captain). I think they would rival a unarrankarized VL, but not a fully-arrankarized one.

--
In any case, the point I really wanted to make by my previous post is that Szayel isn't that big. O__O;

I'm not Szayel fan, actually I hate him. But that does not change my opinion. He is exceptionally intelligent. As long as someone beats the opponent, who cares if by brute force or intelligence?

Point is, there is NO, single, zero, nada clue that any may be VL or Adjucha. Kubo did not tell anything about any of their past so far with exception of #9.

Ok, well knowing that Espadas are classed in order of strength and that Luppi managed to get bumped at #6 directly means that #7 and under are weaker than Hitsugaya (who didn't kill him but still pwned him xD). Since VL are supposedly about as strong or stronger than captain level shinigami, I think it's safe to assume that the espada ranked from #7 to 10 were definetely not VL before being arrankarized. Which means that Szayel isn't a VL.

Besides, all arrankars seem to have human-like intelligence, whether they were adjucas or VL or whatever. So I'd say the intelligence factor only applies when talking about UN-arrankarized hollows.

And the arrankar release might actually be a little clue. since by releasing they unleash their true form (and they're hollows). So it's possible that VLArrankars' release would give them a more human look. I think it might work this way :

VL : human-like form
Aju : animal/beast-like (like JW, assuming he is adjucha)
Gillian : hollow-ish (like the gillians from the beginning... )

of course the flaw in my reasonning is that the gillians of the beginning should've had a more "menos-like" form.

There isn't actually a sure way to guess from VL, gilian, adjucha, but what's sure (based on my reasoning) is that Szayel isn't VL

Syn

07-05-2007, 08:43 AM

There are actually lots of clue that Yammi is an Adjucha and Ulq a VastLord (meaning 1-3 are also VastLords). Like when Hitsugaya explained the different menos, we had shadows of Ulq and Yammi as hollows. And later on, when Ishida explained the various hollows, we had one of the Gillians who'd been killed to represent the gillians, Yammi to represent the Adjuchas and Ulq to represent the VastLords (in their arrancarized versions).
Coincidence? Two times already? I think not.

Primera Espada

07-05-2007, 08:59 AM

There are a lot of things that *may* imply that Ulquiorra is a vastarode.

However, Ulquiorra looks vaguely like the reference shadow, and also the reference shadow of the espada was not 100% accurate either.

There's counter evidence as well

The fact that Urahara stated that the arrancar that came with grimmjow on his 2 visits were all ajuucas and gillians could apply to Ulquiorra.

And Urahara knows his stuff.

Syn

07-05-2007, 01:16 PM

It was only stated for his first visit, and by Aizen (that all the Arrancars who died were Gillians). Ulquiorra isn't a part of the second visit since he was first with Inoue in the Dangai and then went to GJ to bring him back. Urahara never saw him the second time, so he didn't know he was there (he didn't fight either, so he didn't leak out his reiatsu).
The hollow form obviously doesn't match exactly because it was pre-Arrancarization. Elsewise, it's pretty much Ulq. And the second time it was definitely Ulq that was shown when Ishida explained the different Arrancars; or are you saying that a Gillian and two Adjuchas were shown when he was talking about Gillians, Adjuchas and VastLord?

Byakuya

07-05-2007, 01:38 PM

I think #4 and up are vasto lorde, but also that Ulquiorra manually removed his mask.

Axie

07-05-2007, 01:41 PM

The only reason I believe Ulquiorra is a Vasto lorde is because of the remains of his mask.

I agree with Byakuya, 4 and up are Vasto lordes

Nocturne

07-05-2007, 03:44 PM

I also agree with the top 4 being Vastro Lords. However, if I go by Vastro Lords being more humanoid in appearance (and demeanor, i.e. lacking in animalistic qualities) then I would have to re-arrange my ranking of the Espada and move Noitora to #5 and the black guy to #3. Makes the top four not as quick to engage in a fight, would rather assess the situation before resorting to violence. It's why Stark is still laying on his bed, Halibel is a spectator, the black guy is still meditating and well Ulquiorra really didn't want to fight Grimm, but was forced to. But as usual, pure speculation on my part so I could be wrong. As for Szayel, he's too cannibalistic for my taste to be a Vastro Lord. :D

I have to add, when Gin and Aizen spoke right after Tousen disintegrated Grimm's arm, I had thought then that Aizen didn't have Vastro Lords among his Espada. Or maybe he did have them but they were not really fully going along with his plans yet.

Gamma

07-05-2007, 03:54 PM

I have to add, when Gin and Aizen spoke right after Tousen disintegrated Grimm's arm, I had thought then that Aizen didn't have Vastro Lords among his Espada. Or maybe he did have them but they were not really fully going along with his plans yet.

Well, according to what he said, it appears as no Vast Lord were in the Espada in chapter 213. He needed to collect them to make the Espada perfect. But also if you remember, the only Espada mentioned at that time (chapter 213) was Grimmjow. The rest wasn't confirmed till later in 229 (Yammy) and the Espada table scene (besides Luppi).

Syn

07-05-2007, 04:01 PM

That line is very discussed and no one is certain for sure about what Aizen told Gin. He could already have some Espada VastLords-based and wait for them te be ready.

Inuhanyou

07-05-2007, 04:37 PM

What i personally believe is, that none of the espada are vastro's and they are all higher end adjucas(except for arronieo) powered up by arrancarization..

Sarada

07-05-2007, 04:50 PM

The point SiSL is making is that there are exceptions and him and I believe Szayel is an exception.

Yes and I'm sure Grimmjow is an exception too, because he must have liked the number 'Sexta' so much he refused the 'Primera' spot. A la Yumichika.

But that's just me fandreaming in fastest gear. And I think you all are too about Zael being a Vastorode. Sowy mates ;)

Ok, well knowing that Espadas are classed in order of strength and that Luppi managed to get bumped at #6 directly means that #7 and under are weaker than Hitsugaya (who didn't kill him but still pwned him xD). Since VL are supposedly about as strong or stronger than captain level shinigami, I think it's safe to assume that the espada ranked from #7 to 10 were definetely not VL before being arrankarized. Which means that Szayel isn't a VL.

I don't think you can assume Luppi fitted into the ranking order. His promotion could have been solely to teach Grimmjow a lesson.

As for the silhouettes, why not accept Kubo gave us a clear hint. why introduce a character, and then show a silhouette a few chapters later that resembles him so much.

Aizen remark can be interpretted that he does have Vastorodes, but not enough to crush SS, he seems fixed on the number 10.

Then Urahara's clue that there weren't any Vastorodes in Grimmjow's first raid.

All of them clear hints, but people continue to doubt them.

Llama

07-05-2007, 04:58 PM

how do you know it's innacurate? Is it because they said it was inaccurate or is it because you just don't believe it? It's it's the former, I'd have to believe you but i don't think it is. But yes I also think it's not actually above ALL captains, but at least the great majority of them. (Yama, shunsui, Isshin and Urahara being exceptions... with Uki being a good step behind due to his disease)

I don't think Yama and co. can be just as strong as Full Arrankarized VL, because arrankars/vaizards have a huge edge over shinigami and hollows. (If a VL is as strong or stronger than a captain, the fully-arrankarized version is obviously much much stronger than a captain). I think they would rival a unarrankarized VL, but not a fully-arrankarized one.
Well I know it's inaccurate because I have a Japanese friend who know Japanese. Comes in handy when the raw comes out. Also a lot of people complain how that translation is bad. Also, even in the anime, it didn't say any captain. But I won't argue with you who you think is equal to an Arrancarized Vastro Lorde and stronger since that's opinion. And I was including just the current captains. I also believe Urahara could handle a Vastro Lorde besides Ukitake(I don't believe his disease is that big of a hindrance), Shunsui, and Yamamoto. And Isshin, well he's just too much of a mystery still. All he really has done is kill a low level Arrancar. I need to see more of him.

Though I must also admit the translation I download is even more inaccurate then the any captain one. Hitsugaya says, "It's safe to bet that all these types of Menos have followed suit. Not knowing the enemy's battle strength, having three captains defect...In any case, that's all we know about them at the moment." See what I mean.

Beee

07-05-2007, 07:55 PM

Well I know it's inaccurate because I have a Japanese friend who know Japanese. Comes in handy when the raw comes out. Also a lot of people complain how that translation is bad. Also, even in the anime, it didn't say any captain.

Oh well I guess the translation was bad ;)

Godofwar_22

09-02-2008, 09:42 PM