Post All Your Criticisms About Bleach [Archive]

Ryin

03-21-2008, 06:26 AM

You're setting yourself up pretty badly here >.> I can see this devolving into a shipping war within the first few pages. But don't say I didn't warn you.

My biggest complaint is that the scope of bleach far exceeds what Kubo is able to work with. I think he tries and fits too many nuances into things and in time because h has to take so long getting to them they become forgotten or irrelevent.

I mean the Idea of Shinji was in the first chapter and the Arrancar appeared technically after the King Fisher thing(forget what chapter that was) And they didn't really show up until chapter 190.

I guess I might just be too impatient for all of his machinations but that is what it seems like to me.

Alot of the times IF he has a reason for something(Especially with the HM arc) it isn't really apparent and may not be for dozens or ... hundreds ... of chapters later.

And it seems like we will never see EVERYTHING the universe has to offer even thoguh I want to see all the stories even of more minor characters.

Dice

03-21-2008, 06:34 AM

You're setting yourself up pretty badly here >.> I can see this devolving into a shipping war within the first few pages. But don't say I didn't warn you.

:/ well it doesn't necessarily have to evolve into a shipping war, and tbh, I'd rather have some form of public discussion about the flaws in Bleach than none.

I'm sure a lot of people wish to voice their opinions and I think that instead of focusing on the negative side of that and preventing people from having a voice, we should be able to at least express ourselves to an extent.

But thanks for the warning and good post. :love

Ryin

03-21-2008, 06:42 AM

marie

03-21-2008, 06:45 AM

the ichigo fights are ridiculously predictable.
the good guys always win. cliched like whoa.
some deaths are just done terribly [ex. nnoitra]
stupid moves usually end fights [ex. kendo :facepalm]

and uhh, a certain thing that sandy-kun knows of, I despise.

Dice

03-21-2008, 06:49 AM

I agree with you. Civilized debate should be allowed to be conducted and disagreements can often be the topic of good debate as well.

I just think that good intentions are going to get the better of people. Eventually flaws will be about characters and someone will have a mind to defend what they perceive as a personal attack (even though it is just a character) and Kabooom! the first stone is thrown and you have yourselves a shipping war. (because for some reason that is how it ultimately ends up)

I suppose that's a bad assumption on my part though.

I understand where you're coming from, people can get emotionally heated over their personal characters, but I'd rather try this thread out as an experiment and see where it goes since it doesn't necessarily involve shipping as a main topic.

And when there was an actual shipping thread I think it lasted a few months before it got too tense, so surely we can do better than that. :love

ANYWAY. Not to change the point of the thread.

One of the greatest things about Bleach is also somewhat of a curse. With so many characters you have a ton of enjoyable stories but in some situations that can confuse and bog down things. The Szayel fight was spread throughout like 50 chapters even though it may have been about 6 or 7 chapters total (including Mayuri stuff)

And I agree with you about this, there are so many interesting characters in the Bleach universe, but sometimes we can go a year or more without seeing any sign of them. That's very frustrating sometimes. And yes, the Szayel fight lasted too long, though I did like Szayel a lot, and didn't need to be interwoven throughout 50 chapters.

and uhh, a certain thing that sandy-kun knows of, I despise.

I think I know what you mean but lets keep it to our other board marie-kun for now :love

Akutabi

03-21-2008, 06:52 AM

Backgrounds. I know Kubo has said he's not a background guy but sorry that excuse just doesn't cut it for me.

And it seems like we will never see EVERYTHING the universe has to offer even thoguh I want to see all the stories even of more minor characters.

Yeah I think the Bleach universe has too much for Kubo to handle properly. Too many interesting characters with little chance of development or concepts like Hell that show no sign of being used. Just feels like Kubo's been winging it this arc.

And as I've mentioned many times before, zero drama in battle. The shinigami to arrancar death ratio has sapped most of it from the coming battles. I'll be honest, this'll be make or break for me. This looks like a big battle so I expect some real casualties on the shinigami side. None of this getting torn to pieces then patched up good as new after all the arrancar die from similar (or even lesser) wounds. Though we have Inoue so that's unlikely. :(

Not to mention most of the battles are devolving into power pissing contests with no strategy or technique of any kind.

We've got some cool scenes here and there these days that keep me coming (mostly arrancar and bankai releases) and I hope that changes so that it's the plot that keeps me coming back. Really, it all hinges on what Aizen does.

MugOTea

03-21-2008, 07:02 AM

I understand where you're coming from, people can get emotionally heated over their personal characters, but I'd rather try this thread out as an experiment and see where it goes since it doesn't necessarily involve shipping as a main topic.

Just want to point out, half of the shipping wars I've read in my two months of being here did not happen on threads that had anything to do with shipping. If you want me to link you to them, then I will.

x__X Asking you to realize that what Ryin is saying probably will happen, because that's the nature of these threads. Unless something very miraculous happens.

-
Now, to something that is on topic~

I could easily say that I don't like how Ichigo (or some Captains) get to hax and win nearly all of their battles (or if they don't win the first time, they do the next time after they train.). I could also easily say that I don't like that main characters aren't really dying. However, nearly all of this is to be expected with a manga like Bleach.

What I don't like is how fast things move sometimes. It really seems like things are rushed to me (save for Ulquiorra coming back, because it took him however many chapters... Grimm, I'm lookin' at you next! >:C). If you go back and read the Kenpachi vs. Nnoitra fight, or even the Mayuri vs. Szayel fight now that all of the chapters are released, it actually goes by extremely fast. Same with the Ichigo vs. Grimmjow fight. I feel that, even though we had to suffer and wait for these battles to come to an end, there could have been more to them. Seriously, go back and read them now that you aren't waiting a week for the end to come.

Honestly, who didn't love that Mayuri and Szayel kept haxxing each other? Pure awesome stuff right there.

If it wasn't two in the morning, I'd post something more sane, I swear xD.

I'd also like to see someone fighting for hollows/arrancar. < < I mean, there's a lot of drama potential right there.. Look at Nel, she's a hollow/arrancar, no one wants to kill her D;. I want to see that idea toyed with.

Dice

03-21-2008, 07:09 AM

Just want to point out, half of the shipping wars I've read in my two months of being here did not happen on threads that had anything to do with shipping. If you want me to link you to them, then I will.

x__X Asking you to realize that what Ryin is saying probably will happen, because that's the nature of these threads. Unless something very miraculous happens.

:/ Then is the solution to stifle discussion and not let anyone express themselves?

I don't like that alternative either, and in fact I think it's a lot worse to some extent.

This can turn into a controversial topic, I understand but I'd rather risk it for a bit than not have anyone ever discuss anything because of the risk of a shipping war.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't want this thread to be trashed just out of fear for something. People do have valid complaints about bleach. I actually know a few people who've told me that they feel nobody ever criticizes Bleach on this board at least compared to other boards.

So I think this thread is justified.

Anyway just to make sure this post is not too off topic. One thing that frustrates me about bleach is how KT always pulls out all these mysteries that never get resolved till 50-100 chapters later, and then when it does get resolved that brings about a whole new batch of mysteries.

MugOTea

03-21-2008, 07:11 AM

I understand where you're coming from but I don't want this thread to be trashed just out of fear for something.

We never said trash it, we just said be prepared x__X.

I also understand where YOU are coming from. I've really been wanting a thread where I could actually give my opinion about something and not have it turned into a ship war, even though what I speak of has absolutely nothing to do with ships. I. Understand. In fact, I'd absolutely love it if we could keep this on topic at all times, and not have it go off in the wrong direction, y'know?

But, had Ryin not said any warning at all in the first place, someone may have started the problem later on. At least by saying something like the earlier on, we may be able to stop the shipping war from happening at all on this thread.

Dice

03-21-2008, 07:13 AM

We never said trash it, we just said be prepared x__X.

Ok. I didn't mean to sound harsh, but I'll be prepared.

But, had Ryin not said any warning at all in the first place, someone may have started the problem later on. At least by saying something like the earlier on, we may be able to stop the shipping war from happening at all on this thread.

That's true too, so thank you both for trying to keep this thread civil. :noworry

Annie

03-21-2008, 07:18 AM

How we can't criticize anything or it'll consider bashing.

I don't like how Kubo has created all awesome characters and put them aside for so long.

And pacing this is Arc is slow compared to SS arc.

spacecat

03-21-2008, 07:27 AM

hideseeker

03-21-2008, 07:28 AM

Resolve is a lame word for emoness. Just about anything in Bleach involves so much teenage angst and whining, that some of the more anti-hero characters are actually more appealing. And now, just when some good battles end, you have more emo to come. Gee, I nearly gave up on Bleach after Grimmjaw was defeated. The only reason I went back for a second look was the Captains arrived. Finally, some sense after all the senility.

Ryin

03-21-2008, 07:28 AM

How we can't criticize anything or it'll consider bashing.

Criticism and bashing are different. Unfortunately some people don't see it that way which leads to more bashing. Valid points are valid points regardless of who takes offense to it. Chances were they weren't going to let anything be said without speaking up about it.... but I digress.

I don't like how Kubo has created all awesome characters and put them aside for so long.

And pacing this is Arc is slow compared to SS arc.

I agree with you. In a macro sense Kubo had the pacing speed of techtonic plates, at least in the HM arc. Even if some things were well paced. And especially now that everything is moving fast it is irritating to be jerked around the bogged down the jerked around.

You can't have a long story without SOME slow parts though. And I just tell myself that in the end wit will all be relevant and necessary

I think a big problem is the fact that Bleach isn't finished though. The perspective people have would probably be changed drastically if they were reading it one sitting instead of 18 page weekly chunks. It's like a drug in that sense >.>

Akutabi

03-21-2008, 07:29 AM

I don't like how Kubo has created all awesome characters and put them aside for so long.

I don't think that's neccesarily the problem since I've read other manga where characters are brought back after hundreds of chapters yet I liked it. Hell, one manga showed three characters on a cover page hundreds of chapters ago and now they're playing a key part in the current arc. It really made me laugh I when I realized it. I think it depends how they are brought back.

Saving the day from the arrancar horde just isn't the right way I guess but I guess that's really the only way in Bleach right now

eurys

03-21-2008, 07:29 AM

I'm truly disappointing in the lack of inner thoughts for all the characters, but especially Ichigo.
They all seem more bland and passive, and the few generic dialogues that get out of their lips don't help. It makes it so confusing and hard to connect to them.
The last chapters are a good example. Ichigo doesn't seem to think about what he wants, or he doesn't even seem to think about what people tell him, like when Kenpachi in chapter 313 told him to be satisfied with saving Orihime, and not to fight anymore. The only emotion we get out of Ichigo is his surprise face.
Then, in chapter 315 Ichigo acts as if he's the one who needs to lecture Kenpachi about saving his nakama... :headscratch

The fights need to be more personal too. And more interactions please.

Dice

03-21-2008, 07:40 AM

Yeah please no character bashing. My problem with stuff like this is why focus on the negatives? There are plenty of places these types of discussions happen all over the forum. I've read every post in here and I've read these opinions before many times. Some people love the things others hate also so it's just gonna piss people off. I can't really say what I hate about Bleach cos I'd be breaking my own rules and piss many people off and I don't wanna have to debate my opinions for hours cos they are just my opinions anyways.

A good example is the Szayel fight. It wasn't actually that long but it's main criticism is that it was. It was treated like a side story while other main happenings went on like the Rukia vs Aaroniero/Inoue kidnap by Grim/Grim vs Ichi fight etc and if it got full chapters dedicated to it, it would have been over really quickly. Honestly I'm sick of hearing people bitch about this fight and it's over now anyways.

I'm just really sick of all the bitching and wish people would make more positive threads. I know you are not happy with Bleach right now Dice so don't take this personally please. I'd just prefer read something other than bitching for a change.

I didn't create this to bash specific characters. If it does turn into extreme character bashing, then I think it would be fine to lock it. I know you would rather not read anything negative right now, but I think forums are all about having opinions both positive/negative. I just thought that this could be a thread where people, instead of holding it inside, can express what they find unsatisfactory with Bleach at this point. And I thought that it could be contained in one thread instead of people being repetitive in chapter threads and the such.

I'm not happy with bleach, but i haven't personally offered any strong opinions on characters at this point so far in the thread and won't do it in this specific thread. I have tried to be civil

For some people, BA is the extent of the bleach forums they go to, so they wouldn't have access to another place to express their opinions about bleach and discuss it with others. Despite the fact that it is made to criticize Bleach, and thus can be seen as negative, I don't think it should be closed just because of that.

But if you wish to close it then you can do so.

spacecat

03-21-2008, 07:50 AM

I don't wanna close it and as long as people don't use it to bash characters or pairings I'm fine, I have to read it though cos it is a likely place for problems to arise and unfortunately it's my job to keep an eye on it. I want positive vibes lol :p

Yeah I can't say what I think cos I just don't like making people mad with me. For some reason in Bleach I just lean towards liking the villain characters, not sure why, they just seem cooler imo. I get sick of watching them die/lose/get bashed etc only to always be told it's shounen.. like I should just be ok with it then. I read a lot of shounen and no it's not all like that at all. I understand that villains lose but so should good guys sometimes. And in Bleach it isn't so black and white anyways. Good guys aren't necessarily good and bads not necessarily bad. It just seems whoever is on Ichigo's side wins I spose no matter how bad (villain type character) they might seem. Oh well if people can focus on the story and not just characters they hate the thread should be fine.

Lunar

03-21-2008, 07:56 AM

I think the only weakness that Bleach has is that there's too much characters in it that even Kubo may have a hard time himself,personalizing each one of them.About good/bad sided characters,I think Shinigami still upholds their villain-ity although they're nice now because they're the first to be introduced as evil side.Plus,there's some that even Ichigo can't defeat.Arrancars,the only things I love about them are their unique way of thinking & appearance.

Dice

03-21-2008, 08:00 AM

I don't wanna close it and as long as people don't use it to bash characters or pairings I'm fine, I have to read it though cos it is a likely place for problems to arise and unfortunately it's my job to keep an eye on it. I want positive vibes lol :p

Yeah I can't say what I think cos I just don't like making people mad with me. For some reason in Bleach I just lean towards liking the villain characters, not sure why, they just seem cooler imo. I get sick of watching them die/lose/get bashed etc only to always be told it's shounen.. like I should just be ok with it then. I read a lot of shounen and no it's not all like that at all. Oh well if people can focus on the story and not just characters they hate the thread should be fine.

Ok, Thank you for being understanding and keeping it open Space despite the controversial nature of the thread. :glomp

And I agree with you about how the bad guys always get the short end of the stick in Bleach, especially in the HM arc, and we're expected to understand that it's predictable that they would lose. I guess that all goes back to the fact that "no good person dies in bleach" for the most part mentality that KT has. And not only, like you said, is it unfair for people who love villains, but it also creates no drama at all because we know who's going to win and who is going to lose.

Jasse

03-21-2008, 08:18 AM

-Lack of Drama. Like others have mentioned. Arrancars and big villains have fans as well.

-Kubo dependency on shock twists..(Its great sometimes and sometimes i feel its a bit forced and redundant). this was most evident when the plot is missing.

- The main cast are still outshined and outperformed by Shinigamis and everyone..(although it will probably take some time before they become an intimidating group...this probably will take some time and patience but i hope its not going to be ignored).

- Parallels...Parallels are great and interesting. But i hope Kubo uses them less and less. when a set of characters are "accused" of being a clone of certain characters..in a way it does devalue them and makes the result a bit predictable.

thnx Dice for the thread, i hope this thread succeeds without problems.

WatanukiXXX

03-21-2008, 08:55 AM

1) Yep it's been repeated over and over by others. No good guys die. No tension, no point. The villains are reduced to a joke. Results of fights are predictable. Bleach has successfully made me root for the villains through and through.

2) Fights are, plain dull. I'm in the camp that firmly believes that the limit of Kubo's tactical variety was displayed when Ken used two hands instead of one. Tactical? yes. Amazing? hell no.
It can't be helped that main hero's attack arsenal consists of swinging his sword around, even to launch long range attacks.
Anyway fights in Bleach lack tactics (Mayuri v Szayel was not tactical neither was Zommari v Bya - Kubo pulled crap out of his arse to let the captains win those)

3) Picking up on Jasse's point :hug. Parallels should not substitute for plot. I'm not reading a poem where themes and motifs can be repeated, I'm reading a serialised manga.

4) Clever use of symbolisms, allusions and themes should not substitute for plot and narrative. Case in point - Szayel and Mayuri being Jesus and God and Not Perfect is Good and all that crap. Seriously, at that time there was no plot. He expects to wow us with all that pretentious nonsense? I enjoy being mentally titillated as much as the next pseudo-intellectual, but not at the expense of a coherent plot.

5) Inconsistency. This primarily applies to power levels. Ichigo is excused since as the main hero he is supposed to shock and awe the status quo. But side characters like Byakuya and Kenpachi? umm no

6) Pacing was bad. Now it's picked up again. But the manner in which he seems to dismiss the entire HM arc (Stark pwned btw :yell ) and the speed with which he is now going through, makes one wonder why didn't Kubo do this before? So the slow pace was deliberate, which makes me irritated.

7) Rejection of events. I do not like this power. There is no limit to it in theory. More importantly there is no cost. It can be used any time, anywhere. It ties in to 1) in that any good guy were to die then this power can bring them back. It's even better than a Dragonball which takes 7 years before every wish :hm

Mei

03-21-2008, 12:49 PM

Overall and in general, for some weeks now or even months, I couldn't find much that appeals to me in Bleach anymore. I just became very indifferent, bored and frustrated with Bleach over all. I didn't like it and tried to somehow revive my interest to the plot, characters and events, but I just couldn't, because those plot-less fights (between characters I just cannot care for, because they just do not interest me) didn't attract my interest at all =/
Personally, I'm also not able to fangirl over characters or pairings that just didn't appear for a year or more in the manga. In my heart, I still care for them, support them, but I cannot spend so much time praising or talking about characters, which just exist in my fantasy and not in the current manga chapters. There's nothing new to talk about, and always reciting long happenend events over and over again, is futile in my point of view, because it doesn't satisfy me at all or verifies the amount of energy and time I spend fangirling over KT's piece of work, when all he does is restraining some of his more interesting characters (to me) for months, stretching and slowing down the pace, just to temporize with his fans and play with their patience...=/
Imo, KT has all the potential (character designs, drawing skills, settings, story line) and he proves from time to time that he has done very well and catches the interest of many devoted fans, but I've still been very frustrated, bored and indifferent with the latest fights/ events and the way Kubo presents Bleach.

But, for two chapters now, Bleach seems to get more interesting again: Aizen, Ulquiorra is back, the 3 upper Espada are summoned, SS take their moves.
I hope for the best :)

melboyd~

03-21-2008, 12:51 PM

[critical mode]

i'm tired of 'damsel in distress' arcs :P stop making the girls as the ones who need the rescuing...
(anime) and the episode recaps.. too long. i usually fast forward 5 min of the video file to finally watch the actual part.
chado still cant do much eventhough he got his two hands as weapons.
too many new characters..i cant even remember the fraccions' names.

[/critical mode]

well, not much complaints here >.> pretty much agreed with all watanuki's points.

Shdo

03-21-2008, 01:04 PM

not a single good guy died in all the story, that makes bleach infirior to animes like naruto and d.gray men. keeping everyone alive only hurt the story.

i also have problem with the people who were sent to HM, we didnt saw nothing new! no new byakuya bankai ability, no kenpachi shikai, nothing! it was like 20 episodes of nothing. that makes me pissed that we didnt saw anything new at all when there are so many captains who are still unknown.

so we will see them fight now, that dosent mean that it will be good. most likely half the battles would be skipped and the other half would be easy victories...seriously i dont know why i even bother with the show sometimes...its like a reflex to download the show.

on a side note, i am against joining FC, but if there was a kill them TK FC i would be a co-owner, time to let their heads roll.

debbiechan

03-21-2008, 01:07 PM

Yeah I can't say what I think cos I just don't like making people mad with me.

I just had a revelation! So THAT'S why I get hate mail? I say what I think? :D

I understand where Space is coming from. I like to think of BA as a more reasonable, mature forum than lots of those out there where any ole topic can get started and character bashing is every other post. I mean, I'd rather have discussion than "SO AND SO SUX" and unsubstantiated knee-jerk reactions.

But I've never known Dice to criticize randomly and without a SUPER reserve of information. I love stuff like this, even if (and ESPECIALLY if) it's stuff I disagree with, but then again, I'm kinda weird. I don't take disagreements with my opinions personally and I'm all for character-bashing.

And I disagree with Space on one very important point. Defending your opinion is just not a matter of taking up space and no, one person's opinion isn't as valid as the next person's. VALUABLE, yes, because all opinions contribute to discourse (a lovely lovely thing imv and what forums are all about) and because PEOPLE THEMSELVES are valuable, but there's nothing wrong with trying to prove someone else's point wrong and yours right. Yes, even in art/literature/MANGO interpretation there's such a thing as subjective bias, but as any ole law student like Sinta can tell you, decisions are made in court on a preponderance of evidence--whether or not it is circumstancial or what. A good case is a good case, and I always like to read a good case (or pick apart a weak one if its in the area of my interest/obsession/Ishida)

So carry on.

I really don't have much to add because I adore Bleach, and I'm one of the few people who've loved the HM arc. The pacing in HM is the only thing I think was way too slow and I suspect editorial padding to stretch out the story for commercial purposes. Other than that, I get off on the art alone. I love Kubo Tite. He's my boyfriend.

igniz

03-21-2008, 01:25 PM

To keep it positive, I'd say I hope Kubo would get away from traditional Shonen clichés, in fact, he did so for some extent, but not as much as I'd like, though he try very hard not to, Kubo sometimes uses lame excuses to keep the good guys alive and winning.
But still, Bleach is by far one of my very favourite shonen, anyway I don't see too much the use of complaining on the same things over and over again, everything has flaws and Kubo is just an human trying to make a living providing good entertainment, which he does , and that's good enough for me.

Creeper

03-21-2008, 01:36 PM

My biggest problem are the lead characters. None of them interest me. Ichigo, Ishida, Chad ... I couldn't care less. They don't annoy me but they don't interest me either. I'm totally indifferent when it comes to them. Side characters and villains have always taken the spotlight in Bleach and sadly those characters are often totally forgotten although they would have some great potential to show some character development. I don't like it how everything kind of revolves around Ichigo (well duh... he's the main character but I hope you know what I mean) and his gang only showing their new abilities and relationships and feelings and blah blah. My point is that there's so much interesting characters in Bleach but they don't really get the attention they deserve.
There really is something missing from lead character if I always find myself rooting for bad guys (except those lame filler villains). I was cheering for Soul Society members when they were introduced as "villains" and I'm all for Aizen and his gang right now which isn't that grateful for me because we all know they are going to get defeated sooner or later and probably killed *cries*. And none of the good guys die. What's with that? There's no tension while dealing with them which is just one of the reasons why I like villains and side characters better.

Maybe I'm just weird but this is the way I feel when watching/reading Bleach.

wakeskater

03-21-2008, 01:40 PM

honestly the biggest problem is a lack of drama due to no main characters dying i think. It doesnt make anything serious enough, everyone gets revived, i think we will see some main characters die however soon, they were just being saved for the war ^_^ other than that Bleach is a shounen manga, and my fav, although i like watching anime, and its not doing the manga justice at all :( but that is another gripe, its shounen so i expect the typical random powerups, main chars not dying etc, popular chars not dying (I hope), (dont die grimmy!)
but other than that its come a way i think, reading back through it isnt as bad as week by week too, so the slowness i can deal with

wicked_liz

03-21-2008, 01:41 PM

THERE WAS A PLACE LIKE THIS AND NOBODY TOLD ME?!!! :yell

That just mean yo' - where do I start, I'm a bitter witch.

@ WatanukiXXX - so much love for you post!

My biggest peeve with Bleach has to be the pacing. I mean sticking with the chapters on a weekly basis, you can feel like nothing is happening, especially if the chapter was more action oriented. Yet when I let them build up, and then read the entire volume, it's good stuff.

But Kubo is writing a serial, he only has 19 pages to work with so he's allowed some pacing issues, yet it's very frustrating to feel like the author has some grand plan when his plot direction is so very weak.

@ debbiechan - one day they'll put your pic next to the definition of "fangirl" :D I get off on art too, BUT really good art has context woven into it. It can be defined as telling it's own story.

Kubo has done this, he's definitely capable of it. Creating something that speaks volumes and then following up with something pretty but shallow is not kosher.

To be fair, Kubo's character's are great, but I've seen a lot of art his level and better.

In the western comics industry it's par for course that writers and artists face criticism where it's due. Same thing with the manga industry. Kubo isn't perfect, and he needs to address some serious problems.

Shdo

03-21-2008, 01:56 PM

but here is the problem, he dosnt, as time passes bleach become more boring then before. they are ruining a very original and stylist series.

debbiechan

03-21-2008, 01:56 PM

@ debbiechan - one day they'll put your pic next to the definition of "fangirl" :D I get off on art too, BUT really good art has context woven into it. It can be defined as telling it's own story.

Kubo has done this, he's definitely capable of it. Creating something that speaks volumes and then following up with something pretty but shallow is not kosher.

I'm not his fangirl, Liz, I'M HIS WOMAN! And yes good art has context. The main arguments I've heard from you and other against my boyfriend concerns plot. Plot goes in one direction--it's a familiar device. Poetry spreads out like a puddle, and I'd argue that NEVER is my Kubo shallow, but sometimes he does sacrifice plot for poety, for lingering on art, allusions, and the slow references that are required of a reader reading poetry. A plot is an author giving a story to a reader. Poetry requires more work. I'll argue that Kubo is a poet--his wordplays, his visual puns, etc--all par for the course.

:D

Yeah, but even poetry can be too slow. The HM arc was too slow. But not shallow. Those parallels ARE the story for me. Come at me! I'll tell you why when I come back from the store!

Miyona

03-21-2008, 03:06 PM

Well...I didnt like the Szayel fight either...for reasons people said already and other reasons....

I didnt like how Kubo treated Uryuu and Renji in that fight. All they did was make jokes and play around. He used the fight as comical relief....

and the end to the KennyxNoity fight was one of the worst things Ive seen yet >_>

Rain

03-21-2008, 03:12 PM

I don't have too many complaints, or at least i don't think i do:D

my small complaint, the pacing (and huge number of 5+chapter fights)

its ok when you read/watch bleach in a marathon, but weekly it gets annoying

my big complaint- plotkai

the arrancar were hyped up to be super strong characters, and yet, somehow all the captains are winning with relative ease, and they barely long tired after the fights

im disappointed in how the arrancar were displayed up to this point

Shdo

03-21-2008, 03:16 PM

dont forget how rukia beat Aaro, the 9th espada. i felt so cheated.

Rain

03-21-2008, 03:26 PM

Shdo- that one doesn't bug me as much, because rukia is a strong character, and she was almost killed in the process

im more talking about mayuri, kenpachi and byakuya

Riekie

03-21-2008, 03:47 PM

-Leaving characters hanging for the minimum of 6 months

-No offing of good guys:cry

Shdo

03-21-2008, 04:20 PM

she isnt strong enough to beat a espada. he died in a stupid way, actually presenting his head for her to chop, that was really cheap shot and if you remember the first arrivel of the arrancars even a minor arrancar made a captain class sweat for their money, hitsugaya even said that if they hadnt got the arrancar by suprise this would have been ended diffrently.
and after the arrancars were hyped that much we got this fight where the 9th espada die to a non captain level? actually the arrancar havnt killed even 1 good character, no matter how much power they have. all victories over them are really cheap including rukia (even if its not as cheap as zaraki and mayuri fight)

Miyona

03-21-2008, 05:04 PM

Rukia has had plotkai before....I wish Uryuu had some of that.

I know that plotkai is only for good guys, but if it wasnt I would say that Szayel had a whole bunch of plotkai.

Renji, Uryuu, and Chad were given the short part of the stick this arc....

Edit: And I didnt like the whole Szayel = Jesus thing...

Bleu

03-21-2008, 05:26 PM

My only major critisism is that there isnt enough Gin.

He hasnt been shown alot at all, even though he is a major character.

Syn

03-21-2008, 06:03 PM

Pace. Where has it gone? It's just awful. It seems to be picking up a bit lately, but let's face it, the risks that it will go awful are here, since other fights are awaiting at the corner.

Plot. Has been missing for a lot of time from the HM arc and what Aizen said still doesn't make it up for it.

Subplot. With the main plot missing, well yeah. Here it goes. Part of why the SS arc was so good was the plot and subplots consequent.

Neverending fights. I know it's shounen, but Kubo should do something with these. His fights are too long and awfully boring lately. When was the last time I was actually gleeful about Ichigo's fight? It brings back us to him fighting Byakuya... indeed, that makes a LOT of time, because his way of fighting is super boring, so when he's extra silent...
At least, Byakuya's latest fight was awesome (you're teh man, Bya :3). But Kubo's fights are definitely too predictable.

Thoughts. Erm, Kubo? Your characters USED to think. It feels kind of bland with no thoughts except for going on at how surprise they are about the latest ennemy's new trick :facepalm

And I think everyone miss some characters because he leaves them out for way too long. And, just to say, I'm not talking about only Rukia there. There are a lot of characters in Bleach that I adore and definitely think that they need more panel time. Especially when Ichigo's being so lame :lmao

ezxx

03-21-2008, 06:21 PM

Syn hits all the major points in regards to the absence of plots and anticlimactic never ending fights. One of the things i'd like to add to what Syn said is the lack of any actual character development. Ichigo and pretty much every character in the HM arc received little attention. The only ones to receive any decent treatment, in my opinion, were Nelil and Nnoitra; however, even they didn't get developed as fully well as possible. Also, some of his characters drastically changed in behavior; i.e. Ishida making sexist comments towards Nemu, and in general actually accepting help from Mayuri or even conversing with him.

He really should stop these repeated encounters and unexplained power ups, as well as focusing on some important characters he introduced; i.e. Wonderweiss, Yami, and vaizards. Where did they go?

The biggest event in Bleach (most probably, aside from creating the key and so forth) is happening at the moment, yet they're no where to be seen. It seems as if Kubo is doing pretty much everything for fanservice at this point; i.e. introducing a filler captain via the anime into the main storyline (from what i've heard)

To end on a positive note, the most recent chapter had some nice art and pizazz to it. If he delivers with double pages for each upcoming week, then it'll be a tiny bit more enjoyable for me. :wha

Anyways, ignore my exasperated and disorganized thoughts if you know what's good for you.

imamess

03-21-2008, 06:28 PM

Really my only problem is what Rain had mentioned, and that's how much of a letdown the Esapada have been so far. At the start of the arrancar arc, it felt very ominous. Hitsu was all bent out of shape that they had to lift the limit to beat the fraccion, but we have three captains come into HM and win without much effort. The Byakuya fight felt like Kubo gave Zommari a power that specifically would play to Byakuya's attacks.

I'm not expecting huge deaths. Even though we haven't had any big deaths in the storyline, the aftermath of death has played an important role in the lives of most of our main characters.

I'd like to see more of the Karakura kids (like Chad, he's due for a nice win and not just an easy one thrown to him for pity), but I can live without seeing them if it's not necessary. (and I don't think the other friends will have powers, but I won't get into that)

Still, I'm not really that upset by the story at this time. I mean, if I was, I'd just save myself the trouble and stop reading it.

Shadoblak

03-21-2008, 06:41 PM

Well I'm gonna go ahead and condense all my bitching into one post deep fry it and serve it up to you with a side of brown gravy

1
Lets start way back....We were introduced to excellent characters with interesting backstories, only to have them overshadowed later by the shinigami....Ishida, Chad, Rukia, Orihime, Tatsuki, Keigo, ....Other...kid with keigo, Karin, Yuzu, Kon....Where are they? they've been given the shaft!
2
Certain characters get alot more coverage than others, that's all I'll say
3
The Espada.
Hyped for what a year and a half since Yammy and Ulquiorra showed up...Built up as the badass brigade, hyped like a big budget action flick, slowly revealed aaaaaand..
10: Hiding under a bed.
9: Killed by a headshot while he was gloating :facepalm
8: screaming like a baby as he slowly dies.. (Actually the most satisfying Espada:-_-)
7: Went insane and was killed. -______-
6: Beaten and then nearly bisected by number 5
5: Dead.
4: was trapped in lala land for 3 months....
3, 2, and 1 had better be good >_<
4
Winter War, What is it good for?
We've had our fill of pointless slow nearly impossible fights with a dash of plotkai...Do we really want another arc with nothing but fights?
5
Where the hell are the Vizards???
6
Way too many characters to keep up with, fanservice and plotkai sometimes take the place of an actual story, and after 4 months in Hueco Mundo, we're back where we started...And What happened to Isshin and Ryuuken! Theres a storyline to explore...I feel like HM was a filler, and if you were gonna do a filler, do a filler that actually tells a story....Maybe a flashback to Isshin and Ryuuken, like the Kakashi Gaiden in Naruto...I mean really

And now I'm done :D
All the things I've bitched about, all in one package for your convenience :D

Ryuuko

03-21-2008, 10:36 PM

Like Shado, I've condensed mine.

1) There are too many characters and not enough story to elaborate on them. What where the Vaizards anyway? And where are they?

2) Ive noticed that, in the manga, Ulquiorra is poorly drawn. I want more details so I can color. >:

3) Its predictable. And the arcs are pretty much the same; Go save the damsel in distress. We know ichigo will win. We need something new.

4) Fanservice, Kubo is feeding it.

5) Ive noticed, throughout the show (This isn't meant to offend, sorry if it does) That all of the black characters are either fitting the stereotype, or are in some way, dislikable. (The privaron guy had an afro, Zomari's hips are big, Tousen is misled and blind) I find it unsettling personally. Though Yoruichi is cool.

Guildenstern

03-22-2008, 03:49 AM

1. PLOT, CAN I HAVE IT

2. WTF is the goddamn point of all these fights? What the hell is Ichigo fighting for, other than the sheer orgiastic ballet of balls-to-the-wall
violence? Can we get some insight into the boy's head a la SS arc, please? Earth to Ichigo, WTF are you thinking? What's your motivation, what is your SOUL BURNING RAWR RAWR for? You've never had any problems emoting to the audience before, what is Kubo writing this huge block of silence from Ichigo -for-?

3. The 0_____0 same o______O goddamn @______@ facial #_____# expression q_______q for EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. Has Orihime made any face besides O_____O;;; or X_____X;;; for a year? Ichigo at least gets >:O and 8O. Huzzah. Fuck, Orihime barely speaks.

4. The way Rukia and Byakuya killed their Espada was pretty good and self-explanatory (lol hubris and tactics, exploitation of weaknesses) but WTF...Kenpachi killed Nnoitra because he put BOTH HANDS on the hilt of his sword? Jesus, Ichigo, there's your problem right there. Mayuri beat Szayel because he poisoned the shit out of his living Real Doll, somehow KNOWING that Szayel would cock her up and rebirth himself out of her dried husk? WTF? THAT is plotkai. Rukia taking advantage of her opponent being a dumbshit = not plotkai.

Soul Society arc it sure as hell ain't.

igniz

03-22-2008, 06:35 AM

Mayuri beat Szayel because he poisoned the shit out of his living Real Doll, somehow KNOWING that Szayel would cock her up and rebirth himself out of her dried husk? WTF? THAT is plotkai.

I tend to disagree with that, Mayuri always set traps in his own people (it's like his poor men who were moving bombs in SS arc). So it's not such twist to find out he put poison in Nemu, it soooo fits his vicious style. In the end it was interesting to see that the most vicious of the two won, because basically Mayuri and Szayzel are two genius that fight with tricks, not strength. So I think this one was a good one, not "plotkai".;)

Velius

03-22-2008, 06:57 AM

Reps to Shadoblak! (and the posts to follow.) The way you posted is just great. It reads less as bitching and complaining, which is very dominate in here and more just as simple observations. Much more reader friendly for a thread like this that needs it and you still your points across without all the drama.

I like really like Shado's post. I can honestly nod my head in agreement with everyone one of those points. Of course Bleach isn't going to be perfect. One of the things that pokes me in the side of the brain every chapter is a list of all the unfinished plot points that could pop back up at anytime. >.<

Though I can agree with what Shado and others have said, I don't have the same kind of reaction. Because. Well. "I'm just along for the ride." You get my point from that.

I look at Bleach as a whole, remembering all the early animu episodes I watched and the later mango chapters that I followed. I look(ed) at every episode/chapter as just one more piece to the puzzle that is the awesome series known as Bleach. Never really focusing on one chapter, I could see things for what they are as you put them together. Even the HM arc for me was enjoyable when saw it like this. I enjoyed the HM arc more the some of early SS episodes.

I guess this is just how I've always approached shows that I like. This is why I watch them. I'm not talking about just Japanese series either. A lot my favorite American TV shows come to mind, such as Lost and CSI. Take Lost for example. For me, there isn't a single boring episode in the series. Because, again, I'm looking at it as a whole and every episode is one more piece to the puzzle and I'm excited every week for Bleach to get that piece, like I am for Lost. Since it is just a piece to the whole, it will never disappoint me as being "boring". This is why I am confused when someone says "gah, it's a boring chapter this week". I just don't see it that way.

Ok, I'm done. lol.

heofon

03-24-2008, 10:05 PM

Why does the HM arc feel like Phantom Menace?

I guess what I'm saying is - plot, can I have it. Characters - why so bad. Fights - some tension, plz. Despairing princesses in fancy outfits - go cook something, woman.

cool_inuyasha_g

03-24-2008, 11:55 PM

Lack of violence anime-wise since that stupid timeslot switch, fights should last longer anime-wise, SOMEONE NEEDS TO DIE, Chad needs to be removed from Bleach and Bleach should be...darker. I mean Bleahc is awesome, but it would be more awesome if it was darker like Death note.

heatherific

03-25-2008, 07:12 PM

3. The 0_____0 same o______O goddamn @______@ facial #_____# expression q_______q for EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. Has Orihime made any face besides O_____O;;; or X_____X;;; for a year? Ichigo at least gets >:O and 8O. Huzzah. Fuck, Orihime barely speaks.

Indeed.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/evil_yet_fluffy/enough.jpg

vaizado

03-26-2008, 03:50 AM

Most of the things I dislike about BLEACH have already been mentioned, so I wont bore you with a list.

I'll just say this: what happened to my Rocking Future 7?! *points at sig*
I hated how Kubo introduced these guys as a team and then goes on only to develop some of them and not all. I love Tatsuki and Keigo, two of my favorite characters in the series, and seeing them take the backseat was just disappointing.

Dice

03-27-2008, 06:09 PM

tari101190

03-27-2008, 09:52 PM

inconsistant kimono + haori sleeve sizes!!!

sometimesthey go down to their elbows, sometimes their wrists, sometimes they cover their arms completely.

sometimes they seem really baggy andwide, sometimes they are fairly thin.

once yamamoto's kimono sleeve even went down to his kness. it's crazy!

nothin else bothers me much....

memopanda

03-27-2008, 11:07 PM

I think sometimes the mechanics of Bleach go unexplained. The sad thing is, if Kubo bothered to explain stuff properly (like the whole Kenpachi kendo thing) it would make so much sense, he just often doesn't.

Also the plot is uneven - long stretches of plotlessness followed by sudden info dumps.

On the whole however, I think Bleach is great. An excellent cast of characters, very funny and very easy to become obsessed with.

the_one_freeDAN

04-01-2008, 05:18 PM

i will read bleach till the end, regardless of whether i like certain things or not, but that doesn't mean i'm not going to point out sheer absurdity.

grimmjow transforming into a disco panther foretold the downfall of bleach to me. yea i thought nnoitra looked great beating the crap outta ichigo but i certainly was getting tired of ichigo being a freakin doormat for each and every one of the espada. nell was cool, but the illogicalness that ensued after her made me want to bludgeon myself with a beach umbrella. my sister wanted sincerely to know why the hell anyone has been reading bleach for the past umpteen chapters. its like kubo's continually punching me in the face each time he draws some panel of shit that is pure fanservice made to make those fanboys/girls have a f*cking orgasm. its like any meaning that ever was in bleach has been eradicated, and meant to be nothing. and now i see these gotei 13 flashbacks in which the trash brigade turns out to be captains, the most poorly designed characters in bleach have this spotlight and will probably eat the heart of bleach during the later battles. my god, tatsuki might as well go kill aizen, i think that'll be more logical than the festering crap i've been forced to swallow so far.

take a break kubo, and get your act together.

rvngu

04-02-2008, 12:17 AM

i though the SS arc was amazing. great characters, flashbacks, amazing twist. the building up to ichigo vs kenpachi is incredible (how everyone said that kenpachi is a monster/invincible that sort of thing). i was scared for ichigo!
the arrancar arc was pretty good too with toshiro`s team in the real world and the vizards.
but, since the HM arc, iit`s been going sorta downhill. i mean it`s repetitive. fight, talk about technique, fight/powerup, talk about technique/bad mouthing the opponent, fight, save by captain, fight....plus the fact that it`s again, a rescue arc.

penguin

04-02-2008, 06:45 AM

need more rukia, not enough :yell

oh yea, also introducing cool characters then not showing them for a long time :mad:

the_cobbinator

04-02-2008, 07:56 AM

1.) Fight Scripts!

Good guys always win, except when Ichigo needs to get stronger he will loose to someone badly, but next time that somebody fights Ichigo again with stronger abilities, Ichigo makes them look like a joke. WTF.

Char 1: "Now I am going to attack you with my sword that is coming at you 3 o clock and it's gonna rip you apart!"
Char 2: !!!! *gets hit*

I mean how much does that suck. I hate it when we readers can't figure some of the most obvious abilities by ourselves, because it's ALL written there. ALL opponents kindly reveal their abilities to each other before attacking. DUMB.

Always matching opponents with similar skills. Why wouldn't he have Zaraki face Szayel, why does it always have to be strength vs. strength or speed vs speed?

2.) The inner resolve thing.

I mean it's gr8 to know that motivation and resolve add to character's power and increase his determination to win, and it's "awww" to see 1st and 2nd time, but 16th and 48th when you begin to realize that's all what drives characters to defeat much stronger opponents than themselves, then that's pushing it a bit.

3.) Hueco Mundo arc.

Seriously what the FAK is that supposed to do? Whole arc was nothing but useless fighting and it was ended literally in second; when Stark came and took Inoue back to Aizen. We pretty much wasted over a year on NO progress in the story whatsoever. Only 2 Espada are confirmed dead, Inoue is still with Aizen. Bleach could have as well started with HM and continued when captains came in. What happened in the meantime means sh!t for what we have now really. A waste of good paper, repetitiveness of fights (KGT stopped being cool 100 chapters ago, and so did the mask) and a lot of nothing.

4.) Introducing characters and not developing them for n amount of time, so everyone forgets about them and doesn't give a damn "when their time really comes." TBFH I like Stark a lot but I don't think I'll give a damn once these flashbacks.

And the results of recent popularity poll show that what is keeping Bleach up right now are the OLD characters from SS. Most of Espada seem so carelessly characterized, Especially Zomari. I mean, what is the point of matching a character who probably underwent most character development to some filler material character? Nnoitora is Zaraki's rip too. "I wanna get stronger, I R DA STRONGEST" shizz is something we totally heard from Grimmjow before, and before him, Zaraki. Personalities are repeating way too much.

The only one really worth a mention in the arc is IMO Szayel, for the man is godly.

My two cents. ^^

ralphy-sama

04-02-2008, 01:05 PM

The broken timeline O_o

~Vizard/Espada~

04-03-2008, 02:42 AM

I think the think that gets me the most is that no good guys have died. That is the one thing Naruto has done that bleach hasn't but I still love bleach more because I do get to see more of the characters I love. The good side does need to take some hits.

Budo

04-03-2008, 03:15 AM

I hate Yoruichi being 2nd squad captain. It's stupid and unnecessary. It wrecked all her coolness to me. And I find her introductions lame now. If kubo wanted to give her bankai (which I don't think was ever needed in her even) to pair her against halibel or something this was unnecessary.

stud_muffin22

04-04-2008, 04:20 AM

Lack of character development

Never-ending anti-climactic fight

Pacing...lack of plot advancement

heofon

04-04-2008, 11:08 PM

3.) Hueco Mundo arc.

Seriously what the FAK is that supposed to do? Whole arc was nothing but useless fighting and it was ended literally in second; when Stark came and took Inoue back to Aizen. We pretty much wasted over a year on NO progress in the story whatsoever. Only 2 Espada are confirmed dead, Inoue is still with Aizen. Bleach could have as well started with HM and continued when captains came in. What happened in the meantime means sh!t for what we have now really. A waste of good paper, repetitiveness of fights (KGT stopped being cool 100 chapters ago, and so did the mask) and a lot of nothing.

I agree so much it hurts. Not that I don't agree with your other points, but this one in particular... *bangs head against a wall* HM, why?! whyyyy?!

Miyona

04-05-2008, 01:07 AM

Color spreads without Inoue in them.

Seriously, what the fudge!:mad:

mitzibe

04-05-2008, 10:14 AM

Color spreads without Inoue in them.

Seriously, what the fudge!:mad:

You are right. We need more Inoue. :mad:

rvngu

04-08-2008, 04:30 PM

I agree so much it hurts. Not that I don't agree with your other points, but this one in particular... *bangs head against a wall* HM, why?! whyyyy?!

yep same here. although i do understand the strategy for the purpose of inoue's capture. but this rescue arc was boring and repetitive.

Ymir'sEmbrace

04-08-2008, 04:40 PM

1.) Fight Scripts!

Good guys always win, except when Ichigo needs to get stronger he will loose to someone badly, but next time that somebody fights Ichigo again with stronger abilities, Ichigo makes them look like a joke. WTF.

Char 1: "Now I am going to attack you with my sword that is coming at you 3 o clock and it's gonna rip you apart!"
Char 2: !!!! *gets hit*

I mean how much does that suck. I hate it when we readers can't figure some of the most obvious abilities by ourselves, because it's ALL written there. ALL opponents kindly reveal their abilities to each other before attacking. DUMB.

Always matching opponents with similar skills. Why wouldn't he have Zaraki face Szayel, why does it always have to be strength vs. strength or speed vs speed?

2.) The inner resolve thing.

I mean it's gr8 to know that motivation and resolve add to character's power and increase his determination to win, and it's "awww" to see 1st and 2nd time, but 16th and 48th when you begin to realize that's all what drives characters to defeat much stronger opponents than themselves, then that's pushing it a bit.

3.) Hueco Mundo arc.

Seriously what the FAK is that supposed to do? Whole arc was nothing but useless fighting and it was ended literally in second; when Stark came and took Inoue back to Aizen. We pretty much wasted over a year on NO progress in the story whatsoever. Only 2 Espada are confirmed dead, Inoue is still with Aizen. Bleach could have as well started with HM and continued when captains came in. What happened in the meantime means sh!t for what we have now really. A waste of good paper, repetitiveness of fights (KGT stopped being cool 100 chapters ago, and so did the mask) and a lot of nothing.

4.) Introducing characters and not developing them for n amount of time, so everyone forgets about them and doesn't give a damn "when their time really comes." TBFH I like Stark a lot but I don't think I'll give a damn once these flashbacks.

And the results of recent popularity poll show that what is keeping Bleach up right now are the OLD characters from SS. Most of Espada seem so carelessly characterized, Especially Zomari. I mean, what is the point of matching a character who probably underwent most character development to some filler material character? Nnoitora is Zaraki's rip too. "I wanna get stronger, I R DA STRONGEST" shizz is something we totally heard from Grimmjow before, and before him, Zaraki. Personalities are repeating way too much.

Wow, I agree completely with Dia here. As for the whole HM arc, I think its sole shining light was the introduction of Nel Tu; otherwise yeah, nothing but filler. And I can't wait to see Ichigo randomly bust out his plotkai on Ulquiorra and obliterate him even though he could barely touch him last time they fought :facepalm.

heofon

04-08-2008, 05:10 PM

And I can't wait to see Ichigo randomly bust out his plotkai on Ulquiorra and obliterate him even though he could barely touch him last time they fought :facepalm.

Now I'm dreading the moment the fillers end... :facepalm:

The worst thing about the HM arc is that it could've been so good. The setup was perfect - Ichigo's fight with his inner hollow. Why couldn't the entire arc be about that? Have Ichigo learn that he could gain a power up by defeating Hichigo and have him struggle over his inner demons throughout the arc, culminating in a final battle when he once again comes through for everybody. Why not, KT, why not?!

I also disliked how KT forcefully put all the characters together, making up a poor excuse for having Hitsugaya&co come to the real world. I would've liked it much better if the story broke into two - Ichigo and others in the real world and Rukia&co in SS, both sides finally meeting in Hueco Mundo. Then I would've actually been thrilled by the reunion, instead of having it smacked in my face with Ichigo's sudden bout of depression and Rukia's exaggerated speech.

And finally - Aizen. At the end of the SS arc he was evil Lvl 70, but now it's Grinch level, at best. And the pisspoor plotkais! Just why exactly did he kidnap Inoue other than to have Ichigo rush heroically to save her? Not to mention that if you have to explain your evil plan twice, it sucks.

Phew, I feel better. Good topic.

Darkhole

04-09-2008, 12:04 AM

Kubo, it's time to kill a few major good guys! All of these characters getting shredded and still living. I guarantee u the first time Aizen gets a paper cut he'll die!

edit: Also I wish bleach didn't have a main character. Bleach has so many great characters that I wish there wasn't a main 1(Ichigo). Hopefully Kubo will surprise us but if this plays out like every other manga/anime then the main character will be the 1 to defeat the villain. It's just too predictable. Also, if we didn't have a main character then everyone would be susceptible to death. Come on, I'm pretty sure that everyone who watches bleach does not expect Ichigo to die no matter who he fights right now and how bad he's getting beaten. That just ruins it for me. I wish bleach was a "Anyone can die at any time" type of show. Then I would be at the edge of my seat every fight. I'm sorry, but right now it's like, "yeah yeah, that's a nice technique but any minute now the good guy(MC) is gonna pull some weird move out of nowhere and win. A perfect example of that is the Kenpachi vs. Nnoitra fight. I was posting on another forum at the time and we took a poll. No one expected Zaraki to lose no matter what. Chapter ends with zaraki on the ground, no one expected him to die. that just ruins it.

edit again:
I don't wanna close it and as long as people don't use it to bash characters or pairings I'm fine, I have to read it though cos it is a likely place for problems to arise and unfortunately it's my job to keep an eye on it. I want positive vibes lol :p

Yeah I can't say what I think cos I just don't like making people mad with me. For some reason in Bleach I just lean towards liking the villain characters, not sure why, they just seem cooler imo. I get sick of watching them die/lose/get bashed etc only to always be told it's shounen.. like I should just be ok with it then. I read a lot of shounen and no it's not all like that at all. I understand that villains lose but so should good guys sometimes. And in Bleach it isn't so black and white anyways. Good guys aren't necessarily good and bads not necessarily bad. It just seems whoever is on Ichigo's side wins I spose no matter how bad (villain type character) they might seem. Oh well if people can focus on the story and not just characters they hate the thread should be fine.

I agree. I am also another person who leans toward villains. Why, I don't know, but it's not just in anime, but everything. Drama TV shows, books, movies. Harry Potter is a perfect example. My favorite character was Lord Voldemort. I too am getting tired of these 1 sided fights.

Fortunate

04-09-2008, 12:12 AM

Kubo, it's time to kill a few major good guys! All of these characters getting shredded and still living. I guarantee u the first time Aizen gets a paper cut he'll die!

^This, and the lack of close ups of Gin. I miss his smile. :cry

flower

04-09-2008, 01:24 AM

I read some good points here, especially about some of the characterizations and the fact that the good guys always win/survive.

My criticism is pretty broad. (Please note that I am a relatively new fan of Bleach and have not read all the way from the beginning... yet!) Basically, it's the way the whole spirit world/soul society is set up. I mean, come on... spirit beings growing up/aging, marrying, getting tuberculosis or even dying of illness?? Having class systems/royal families? What makes it any different from the living world- you don't have to pay for gas?

Fortunate

04-09-2008, 07:19 AM

tari101190

04-18-2008, 12:14 PM

i HATED the way aaroniero andd zommari were handled...
this is what should've happened.

aaroniero's fight

1. the exact same things could've happened with how rukia and aaroniero met etc... except he would introduce himself as the 9th espada metastacia.

2. the same coversation between kaien and rukia could've happened, even the fighting part when he cuts her face.

3. when she blows the hole in the wall and kaien runs from the light, would still happen.

4. rukia doing soren soukatasui should still happen aswell, but make it hadou #67 or wateva jeez.

5. kaien's face would be affected by the light, but instead of a fish tank, it should just sow kaien's face but with skin a similar colour to metastacia and give him a sort of fused face of himself and metastacia.

6. kiaien would then explain that when his body reformed in huenco mundo he was a complete fusion of metastacia and kaien, not 2 seperate beings. so bascally it is kaien, just crazy and evil. so not an arrancar or vizard either...

7. kaien will step out of the light, then reveal his bankai, not a resurrección. which would be a large summon creature made from water, controlled as kaien waves around his trident. maybe add armour on the giant summoned creature.

8. kaien wil explain he was always capable of kaien and could have possibly been a captain, and say that now, fused with metastacia, he is more powerful and could definately take on a captain.

9. he will continue to fight rukia, and obviously overwhelm her still he stabs her in the chest like in the chapters. rukia will have her fashback. her blade vould still break i guess.

10. rukia will then say to kaien that her heart is in her fist, use that fist to grab kaiens trident and freeze her hand on it. talking about having her heart in her fist will suprise kaien cos he will remeber saying it. rukia should also say she will defeat him and save kaien, suprising him more.

11. then rukia say 3rd dance, but it won't be called white sword, and it wil not be an ice sword. it wil create a wave of ice in a circle around her. kinda like a combo if 1st and 2nd dance.

12. kaien wouldn't die from the attack, but would be hit anddamaged. his bankai willfreeze and dissapear abd they will both drop. everywhere will be covered in ice and they wil both be on the floor forus to assume they're both dead.

kaiens 'defeat' would be cos rukia sparked a memeory in him, that's all.

zommari's fight

1. zommari could show up and see rukiaand kaien both on the floor left for dead. say he's gonna finish rukia off.

2. byakuya could show up and the same things could happen that happened for real.

3. zommari releases etc and tries to control rukia etc...

4. byakuya does goukei and slices zommari up.

5. zommari should then get angry, have his little speeach about shinigami and hollows, then byakuya couldreply abou his pride, but not attack zommari.

6. zommari could shift into a better form to fight in, which is just his old form, but the punpkin forms armour to fight with.

7. byakuya could use shuukei hakuteiken to attack zommari. then they fight alittle.

8. byakuya could injure zommari again, then kaien should start to wake up. he should crawl nearer rukia and hanatarou ready to attack, so byakuya leaves zommari and protects everyone witha shield of senbonzakura.

9. kaien should fall unconcious again and injured zommari could revert to his sealed form and fall next to kaien.

10. senbonzakura wouldrevert to it'ssealed form, after protecting every1, and even isanes hould be under a blanket of petals. she couldsay she sensed injuries and showed up etc...

if this all happened it would be far better. aaroniero and zommmari wouldn't look so pathetic and kaien could actually be a character again, even though he's evil. isshin could be revealed to be an shiba and maybe fight kaien later. zommari could fight later on too with yamy against some other good guys.

ths would also mean more espada for vizardsetc to fight.

rvngu

04-18-2008, 02:10 PM

aquavit

04-18-2008, 02:37 PM

Ok, this isn't that big of a rant. So I was just reading through some of the old chapters, specifically when Grimm and his buddies go to Karakura for the first time. Inoue's arm was still broken... There is no reason that she shouldn't have been able to heal her own arm. That is all. :notrust

Orihime sent her fairies to heal Chad first. Also, she might not have known that she could heal herself then. Orihime doesn't have someone who can teach her the extent of her powers since they are unique.

ilayapawn

04-25-2008, 11:47 AM

I really didn't like the HM Arc, the fights were so draggy- the plot was all over the place. It was inferior to the SS Arc, IMO. KT could've done better, but sadly, when you look at the entire picture, the arc is just this big mess. It did have its highlights, mind you.

Also, what is up with Kubo not killing anyone? He just basically wiped out (or at least severely injured) half the espada. Who would the others fight now? The lack of character deaths make it seem that in Bleach, no one dies. Ever. And yet, it's a story about death.:confused:

I think that Kubo will make most die in the end though, so I'll just stop my rant for the time being. :D

Other criticisms:

-The lack of Chad-ness in the story. Sure, he has a backstory and that power-up, but I don't feel like I know Chad as much as I know the other characters. There's this whole lack of interaction,IMO.

That's pretty much it. I think I have the same views as other people in this thread.

Lunar

04-25-2008, 01:20 PM

All I want to say is Kubo-sensei did a fine job in portraying women/girls character as power factors.Usually shounen genre tends to have tons of defenseless/weak women/girls but Bleach is vice versa.Only a few that are unable to stand on their own feet.We have many proofs that shows this.The women Shinigami,women being Shinigami are kinda awkward but this what shows they are powerful as men.To add the factor,those who hold high position such as Soifon,Unohana,Yoruichi,all women vice-captains and seated officers raise the rank of women.Oh,don't forget Hikifune that is promoted into the Zeroth Division!Even Orihime proves this by standing still,not even shaken by the presence of her enemies.She bitchslapped Ulquiorra and healed her own enemies.Even those two commented her as being a monster.On to the "bad" side,we have Privaron Espada,Cirucci plus Halibel who is said to be one of the top three.This sum up all about women being power houses in Bleach!!!

Kubo-sensei :glomp

CooWings

04-25-2008, 01:44 PM

Personally, I don't think any story of any kind is perfect. That's just me speaking that nothing is perfect. Anyway, Bleach has become one of my ultimate favourite story ever.

Of course, Kubo-sensei undoubtedly still has a lot to improve, ( that's why I believe nothing is perfect, because perfection limits or even stops all the other possible possibilities for something to improve ) especially in the story-telling area and I'm sure a lot of people agrees. What I find charming in this particular work of his is its depth ( the poems and whatnot ) , and the messages conveyed to the readers and fans.

I'm very particular about life and death, its cycles and its impact; so Bleach has turned very personal for me in some ways. His characters; a few of them, could use more distinct differences in persona between the next, but you cannot deny that they are all appealing in one way or the other. And I've been wondering when he will kill a character or two. It may be saddening for some fans, but hey, even a sannin dies! :yell

So it's about time Kubo adds more tragedy to his story by killing someone. A whole lot of brawls never ends up with no side losing lives, it's not a fairy tale, so Kubo-sensei should start keeping it real. I trust people will die by the end of the arc, however, so I shall shut it here.

Also, I am impressed with Kubo-sama's sense of style. I found his characters very stylish with its unique clothing and overall appearance.

Lunar

04-25-2008, 01:56 PM

Yes,about the one sided death.I agree that is unfair but I have a hunch that certain characters will die that will cause major sadness and impact to the storyline i.e Yamamoto TT^TT

rvngu

05-17-2008, 12:06 AM

well it`s not a criticism but i like the flashbacks. they are a nice break from the non-stop boring/repetitive fighting of the HM arc. i was hoping more aizen/gin interactions but it doesn't matter.

Kojy

05-17-2008, 12:08 AM

Ichigo's Bankai is getting overrated, i mean look this week episode, he has to go Bankai over a couple of LAME hollows which he could pretty much own in his always-released shikai state. Aside the show-off over the newcoming characters, it's pretty much proved that Ichigo in Bankai is getting overrated. >.>

laurie b.

05-18-2008, 02:51 AM

My criticism is pretty broad. (Please note that I am a relatively new fan of Bleach and have not read all the way from the beginning... yet!) Basically, it's the way the whole spirit world/soul society is set up. I mean, come on... spirit beings growing up/aging, marrying, getting tuberculosis or even dying of illness?? Having class systems/royal families? What makes it any different from the living world- you don't have to pay for gas?

Flower, actually the set-up of Soul Society isn't so difficult from the bureaucratic afterlife that is described in the first parts of the Chinese classic "Journey to the West." In that novel, Monkey King wrecks major havoc on the Heavenly Kingdom and earns the ire of the Jade Emperor. I have a feeling Kubo read or was familiar with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_King (not well-summarized, but I'm lazy to look for something better)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West

Back to being on topic...

1. Ichigo needs to spend more time with Zangetsu. Seriously. I understand that he doesn't have much time as the hero and all, but if I was Zangetsu I sure would have more than one trick up my sleeve in terms of shikai and bankai. Look at Rukia, she doesn't even have bankai, but she has three forms of shikai. And Byakuya has several forms for his bankai. I think it was a weakness on Kubo's part to write Ichigo's power-ups this way.

2. While I understand the need for drama, character death is not the only way to do it. So I say: more drama, less long-winded fighting... or at least fighting that has some ideological basis to it.

3. Having "graduated" from Western superohero comics, why do I feel like I'm still stuck in X-men Land? Hell, Kubo created too many characters to fit into one title! If he was working for Marvel or DC, by now Bleach would have spawned new titles -- one for the Vaizards, one for Hueco Mundo, and one for the Gotei 13. And there would also be a "Tales from Karakura" and "Tales from Soul Society" in the works.

Aside from these minor complaints, I still love Bleach a lot. It's still Kubo's baby, I can rant all I want and he's still going to raise it as his own child.

zerosquad

05-19-2008, 05:02 AM

YAY first post!

First I'd like to say I've been a lurker for a while looking for a topic I could chime in somewhat intelligently on LOL.

BLEACH isn't missing too much of anything actually. It's just more of a case of beefing up the main character Kurosaki Ichigo. By far one of the best main chars I've seen *development wise* because he has all the tools to be built into a GREAT main char.. Here are a few things that strike me. Not as shortcomings that NEED to be added, but as things that Tite Kubo already included but just got a little *neglected* in my honest opinon.

As the poster above me said. I would LOVE to see more Soul Reaper / Soul Cutter Spirit interaction. This can include materializations as well. I'm sure most of us can remember the scene where Zabimaru materialized and talked to Renji. Actually this occured again when Ichigo was training for BanKai as well and Renji dropped by again.

I believe while being shown the importance of one's interaction with their Soul Cutter (Kenpachi and Ichigo fight where Ichi passed out and etc etc Ichigo regretted not knowing anything about his sword). Again, no criticisms on Kubo but I'd like to have seen that developed because it set it up so well, only to be left hanging.

In all the characters... though as Laurie B. posted above me. Ichigo would benifit the most from this, I hope to see some sort of move development / Hollow Ichigo interaction soon because KGT is not going to do anything to Ulquiorra. And I don't care how many "I CAME HERE TO WINs" Ichi spouts out. I don't see it happening.

OH NO NEW FOE *hollow mask* (gets sword ready for KGT). :| not going to cut it. It IMHO makes watching Ichigo a chore. Determination speeches are the fastest way to Plot-Kai lolol. Ichi has all the tools (martial arts training, interaction with the sword, hollow ichigo, super fast learner) Just with a few new moves it'll make a REAL big difference to see Ichigo in a fight where he's sorta like a Ulquiorra. (Though we never seen him draw his sword) Just to see Ichi head up a fight without Ban-Kai and Mask would be terrific. Though too late for any of that now. With the level of folks Ichi has fought and will fight *Ulquiorra* this isn't possible. But I am expecting some sort of growth from Ichi when the TBTP flashbacks close out.

But knowing Kubo we'll all be surprised.

PS: A little more bloodlust in Ichigo would be nice...and SWING THAT SWORD BY THE WRAP!! Throw it too.

hinamori_momo

05-19-2008, 07:42 AM

Agmaster

05-19-2008, 12:59 PM

Lack of Hanatarou as evil right hand man. Would've made everything else ok.

zerosquad

05-19-2008, 03:26 PM

i think that sometimes, when ichigo fights, it starts to get really boring, its much better if, lets say, something goes horribly wrong and someone unexpected suddenly steps in to help. As well as that, something like :Ichigo is horribly injured/goes into coma happens, wouldn't that be better?

Agreed. Something needs to propel Ichi's fights. But concerning the anime. The animation really needs help IMHO. Examples of GREAT fight animation?

Ichigo vs Renji
Ichigo vs Kenpachi
Kenpachi vs Tousen / Komamura

In these fights I noticed a *building* in intensity whether in dialouge, the actual fight itself or etc. The last fight I listed really wasn't a *go all out, smash em to bits fight* but on account of the dialouge and seeing Kenpachi think himself through it was enough.

Don't see that enough from Ichi. *current manga and HM Arc*. All we see is blind determination and tons of Bankai KGT and a complete lack of killer instinct. Which is BORING.

Def expecting some *turnaround* of some sort to set things back in order.

Also note. This is one of the first times where so MANY fights are going on at the same time for an entire arc lol. So this would *water down* anything.

rvngu

05-23-2008, 04:58 PM

another criticism, but it's not really kubo's fault: he is a bit at the mercy of his genius, he created so many cool/wicked/crazy characters that he doesn't have time to flesh them all out properly. ask anyone in this forum if their favorite character gets enough screen time, i bet 95% would answer no. most people don't have ichigo as their favorite character but he is the hero so it's normal that he gets the most screen time which is a shame really.

hinamori_momo

05-24-2008, 05:14 AM

I think that sometimes there's too much bloodshed. As well as that, kubo doesn't really focus on some other people much. That disapoints some fans you know. The readers want to know something about all the characters so there should be some more flash backs for background knowledge. As for the Turn Back The Pendulum chapters, i think that they should be over with slightly faster, please?
:)

CeriaHalcyon

05-24-2008, 04:25 PM

I think In both the manga and the anime that Hitsugaya gets too much hype, when there are other captains which need screen and page time. I think having Soifon do the beginning of the arrancar arc instead of him would've been interesting.

gigantor21

05-26-2008, 07:13 PM

Hoo, boy...a general criticism thread? Where to begin...I guess the fights.

- The way they're drawn is one thing. The formless energy plumes in close combat are so uncommital--it's like Kubo throws them in so he won't have to think of specific attacks. Also, everything looks sloppy as hell when in motion, the attacks get too much page room, and the choreography jumps between repetitive and random. I don't think we'll ever see a chapter like Drunk Lee's in Naruto, where it's badass BECAUSE it's just straight fighting. Kubo's never been good at it.

- A lot of things are put in on faith, without ever being fully explained, like magic. Where do Zanpakuto avatars come from? What determines the rank of Kido and Bakudo? Do elemental spells have weaknesses and advantages? How does event rejection work? What makes a Zanpakuto's unique abilities possible? We don't know how most things work because the underlying mythology is underdeveloped.

- Too many characters have become useless. None of the other Karakura kids can fight Espada, nor can Shinigami below Captain level (including those with Bankai). That just leaves Ichigo and most of the (ex) Captains. The "War" will just be Captains fighting the Traitors and remaining Espada, since those are (apparently) the only characters strong enough to be relevant now.

- There aren't enough tactics involved. The fights are determined by brute force, speed, and whoever has the most reiatsu or overpowered techniques. No Shikamarus or Ussops here, folks--if you aren't Captain class, you're not getting anywhere no matter how smart you are *looks at Ishida*. This formula is abused in almost every post-DBZ shonen in existence, and Kubo hasn't made it fresh or exciting.

- Lastly, the fights themselves are often distractions from the story instead of enhancers, because they don't move the story forward much. It's been especially bad since the SS Arc since most of the fights have been random encounter battles. The only underlying current was "saving Inoue" and "getting the Hougyoku"--the Arc never rose above those things to make something special. I don't see how that'll be any different during the War.

More to come later.

-

Jack Van Burace

05-26-2008, 07:59 PM

Kubo's never been good at it.
There aren't enough tactics involved. The fights are determined by brute force, speed, and whoever has the most reiatsu or overpowered techniques. This formula is abused in almost every post-DBZ shonen in existence, and Kubo hasn't made it fresh or exciting.

One advice: READ ZOMBIE POWDER!!!*

*Kubo's first manga if you happen to don't know that yet;

Kubo is an excellent fighting mangaka and he IS excellent in fighting/comedy/action intricate sequences. No Shikamarus, but surely Rock Lees. Do read it, and you'll soon find out that it is probably censorship that keeps him from killing characters and doing great fighting sequels. He definitely must have gotten a big ear pull from the heads of Shonen due to the controversial and yet rocking content he was bringing more and more into ZP, and if he could do it since so long ago, I doubt he lacks the skill now. ;)

Read Zombie Powder and you'll be surprised that he is the same mangaka that writes Bleach!

Spartan27

05-26-2008, 08:01 PM

Well I have a lot criticisms.

First, NO DEATHS, seriously Kubo, I know you like your characters, but come on man, do you really think it's okay not to have the specter of death looming in the background for over 300 chapters! There were many opportunities to have a significant death, but instead Bleach has become the manga where no one dies...ever.

Second, as I'm sure it's been said the powers have just gotten too big, and because they're too big, there really isn't much strategy at all, either you're just "faster" or more "powerful", while idea of huge powers can be appealing, to be a good manga you need to have a bit of strategy as well, it's just not that much fun seeing energy blasts every which way.

Third, too much Hitsu, I know he's a popular character but the kid always seems to disappoint, there are a slew of captains and VCs that would much more interesting.

Well I know this is a selfish one, but I would like to see more of the school life, I don't know how this might work, but I felt like since the HM arc we've just sort of gone away from what made Bleach good.

The story needs some work, some of the ideas are good, but there is just not any emphasis on story, it's all battles, it's been only battles for over a year, just in the last few weeks I've felt like we've had some story going on. Story is your friend Kubo.

There are a lot of other things that I could complain on, but those are more just my personal preferences that I think really aren't criticisms, but more opinions.

Jack Van Burace

05-26-2008, 08:04 PM

Oh yeah, and I forgot to comment that he doesn't stall one bit and leaves no character underdeveloped in ZP also. Which is also proof that this isn't HIS trait, and rather someone above him possibly keeping his hand.

And oh yeah, he has absolutely no mercy with his chars!
I get the feeling my advice for people to read Zombie Powder came at the right time! ^^

EDIT: In order to not get away too much from the topic, I should rephrase what I meant, which is that my greatest criticism about Bleach is whomever said to Kubo to stop being action packed and caring about his character's past in exchange for......... oh yeah, I think Bleach's story is better in the end, and the drawing has improved. But I thing it was good enough on Zombie Powder, both the story and the drawing, so please mr. censor: let the man work! He knows what he's doing! :yell:

Undying

05-26-2008, 10:08 PM

Actually Jack, I think that the main problem isn't censorship. It's what the Japanese fans want. It ruins the manga; they want emo teenagers with deep pasts who fight constantly and win by conquering all the world (guess why Zombie Powder was canceled? Lack of appeal and not appealing to the fandom... my god some fans are just annoying. A precious gem left so unloved because the fans want shit =_=).

So I guess my own criticism for Bleach is that unlike Zombie Powder, it goes the DBZ route a bit too much while trying to appeal to the fandom. It has: A. overpowered everything, and B. winning through sheer resolve that unlocks hitherto unknown superpower in characters (Gohan SS2/Mystical, anyone?).

If instead of trying to appeal to the fandom of DBZ and focusing on excellent storytelling which involves excellent fight sequences and excellent comedy a manga chooses to dance after a festival of mediocrity such as DBZ, I'm afraid that it will turn into shit equaling DBZ.

Kubo is ought to take a route similar to Soul Eater; less words, more action, more comedy. Zombie Powder is a thousand times superior to Bleach in many areas, except fandom. Too bad Japanese otaku are hopeless gobshites.

gigantor21

05-26-2008, 11:10 PM

Blaming the fans or the editors is just an excuse IMO.

Even if the series is censored, it still gets away with A LOT--titty grabbing, gallons of blood, limbs being ripped off, and so on. None of that has made the series any better, so I don't see why more of it would help. And Hajime no Ippo is nothing like DBZ--it's a boxing manga with three dimensional characters and realism--and it's been going on for 18 years. I've never read any other shonen like it. So I think it's more a matter of overall quality.

Anyway, staying on topic;

My two other problems with Bleach, besides the fights, are the pacing and the lack of depth. There wasn't much going on in HM besides fights; we saw little history, rivalry or candor between the Espada (save Nell and Nori), and the fights were stretched to the bone as a result. That reflects on how random the premise of arc was in and of itself. Granted, I don't think density alone is enough, but a little more would be nice.

Undying

05-27-2008, 09:51 AM

Blaming the fans or the editors is just an excuse IMO.
But they are the ones who usually ruin a good manga. When a manga becomes a fan manga (DBZ, for the most common example) it turns into such a festival of mediocrity that it ruins the experience for people spoiled but slightly more complex and less shallow experiences (and it's not just manga, too).

Even if the series is censored, it still gets away with A LOT--titty grabbing, gallons of blood, limbs being ripped off, and so on. None of that has made the series any better, so I don't see why more of it would help. And Hajime no Ippo is nothing like DBZ--it's a boxing manga with three dimensional characters and realism--and it's been going on for 18 years. I've never read any other shonen like it. So I think it's more a matter of overall quality.
I don't think you use the word "censored" in the same way I meant it; I mean it is censored from specifically deaths by the fans and the editors who want to keep the fans happy and buying the manga.

As for Hajime no Ippo, while I never actually read it, I have to point out it's been here longer than DBZ. When DBZ appeared, it set the bar for most new manga focusing on insane amounts of repetitiveness. Samey characters, identical evolutions, same run-of the-mill characteristics. Ippo doesn't have them because it was there before, and had more time to develop.

Anyway, staying on topic;

My two other problems with Bleach, besides the fights, are the pacing and the lack of depth. There wasn't much going on in HM besides fights; we saw little history, rivalry or candor between the Espada (save Nell and Nori), and the fights were stretched to the bone as a result. That reflects on how random the premise of arc was in and of itself. Granted, I don't think density alone is enough, but a little more would be nice.
This relates to another problem I have with Bleach; too many fragging characters. We've got over 50 in the main cast, and it's WAY too much. Kubo should be focusing on a small band of characters he develops rather than trying to develop every single character.

We've had Ichigo, Chad, Rukia, Orihime, Ishida, Urahara, Byakuya, Tousen, Aizen, Vaizards development (and probably a few more I forgot). If this keeps up, things will stretch to the point of infinity when each character will take years to develop seriously. This will seriously kill the pacing. Come on Kubo, just kill everyone.

gigantor21

05-27-2008, 12:41 PM

But they are the ones who usually ruin a good manga. When a manga becomes a fan manga (DBZ, for the most common example) it turns into such a festival of mediocrity that it ruins the experience for people spoiled but slightly more complex and less shallow experiences (and it's not just manga, too).

Yu Yu Hakusho was filled with questionable content, which I'm sure was caused by the editors, but I still find it a better read than Bleach.

I don't think you use the word "censored" in the same way I meant it; I mean it is censored from specifically deaths by the fans and the editors who want to keep the fans happy and buying the manga.

Oh, okay. That one, I fully agree with.

Personally, I've always seen the great characters as a double-edged sword. It makes the story more fun to read, but it's damn near impossible to kill off characters who no longer serve a purpose. Hinamori and Hitsugaya are 2 perfect examples--they should've died due to Aizen's wounds, and I'm sure they were kept alive just because they're so popular. As such, Hinamori has done NOTHING useful since then, while Hitsugaya has been forced on us as much as possible (even getting his own movie).

I still like them, but not THAT much. :p

As for Hajime no Ippo, while I never actually read it, I have to point out it's been here longer than DBZ. When DBZ appeared, it set the bar for most new manga focusing on insane amounts of repetitiveness. Samey characters, identical evolutions, same run-of the-mill characteristics. Ippo doesn't have them because it was there before, and had more time to develop.

Hajime no Ippo started in 1990, after the DBZ anime came out. The Dragon Ball manga became DBZish way before then.

This relates to another problem I have with Bleach; too many fragging characters. We've got over 50 in the main cast, and it's WAY too much. Kubo should be focusing on a small band of characters he develops rather than trying to develop every single character.

We've had Ichigo, Chad, Rukia, Orihime, Ishida, Urahara, Byakuya, Tousen, Aizen, Vaizards development (and probably a few more I forgot). If this keeps up, things will stretch to the point of infinity when each character will take years to develop seriously. This will seriously kill the pacing. Come on Kubo, just kill everyone.

I think this goes back to the popularity problem. Because people love so many in the cast, Kubo has to make room for all of them to placate us. And it's tiered--that's why some characters get way too much screentime, while many others haven't been seen since the SS Arc ended. In that regard, I guess fan input is partly to blame, but Kubo is mostly at fault for biting off more than he could chew.
---------

Spartan reminded me of something else; we don't know enough about Karakura City itself. What is the high school known for? Which clubs are most popular? What are the demographics of the neighborhood? Are there any landmarks or tourist attractions? Why did the characters move there in the first place? That ties into the larger problem of Kubo neglecting his environments (both artistically and narratively), something that's bothered me for a while.

Undying

05-27-2008, 01:09 PM

Yu Yu Hakusho was filled with questionable content, which I'm sure was caused by the editors, but I still find it a better read than Bleach.
Because Bleach is used the used. But anyway, seeing as I never read Yu Yu (never found the time), I can't compare, but somehow I'm certain it's better than current Bleach. Maybe because there were fewer characters with much focus on? As I understand, most characters appeared and got smothered shortly thereafter without Bleach's 100+ flashback chapters.

Oh, okay. That one, I fully agree with.

Personally, I've always seen the great characters as a double-edged sword. It makes the story more fun to read, but it's damn near impossible to kill off characters who no longer serve a purpose. Hinamori and Hitsugaya are 2 perfect examples--they should've died due to Aizen's wounds, and I'm sure they were kept alive just because they're so popular. As such, Hinamori has done NOTHING useful since then, while Hitsugaya has been forced on us as much as possible (even getting his own movie).

I still like them, but not THAT much. :p
Exactly. It's a common problem in a lot of franchise, really... as everyone who looked can see, popular archtype characters often get overused and whored out (Hitsugaya archtype, Ichigo archtype, etc. for manga, other types for games and the like) because they bring in money. And the result causes a decline in the integrity and interest of the anime/manga, while appealing to more fans.

Hajime no Ippo started in 1990, after the DBZ anime came out. The Dragon Ball manga became DBZish way before then.
Srsly? Never knew that. Oh well, my mistake then. I still think it's because it was before DBZ became madly popular and set the bar for more festivals of mediocre characters.

I think this goes back to the popularity problem. Because people love so many in the cast, Kubo has to make room for all of them to placate us. And it's tiered--that's why some characters get way too much screentime, while many others haven't been seen since the SS Arc ended. In that regard, I guess fan input is partly to blame, but Kubo is mostly at fault for biting off more than he could chew.
Possibly, or because he's just trying to make Bleach deep while having too many characters? A 19-page manga is not nearly enough to develop something like that. A novel would be a lot better. Either way, it's more criticism about Bleach :p.

Spartan reminded me of something else; we don't know enough about Karakura City itself. What is the high school known for? Which clubs are most popular? What are the demographics of the neighborhood? Are there any landmarks or tourist attractions? Why did the characters move there in the first place? That ties into the larger problem of Kubo neglecting his environments (both artistically and narratively), something that's bothered me for a while.
Indeed. With too much focus on too many characters, the location and world become neglected. Kubo could devote more chapters to the locations, just like he did with the graveyard (Grand Fisher arc), the hospital (Don Kanonji) and the like.

Jack Van Burace

05-27-2008, 01:13 PM

@ Gigantor: well, Yu Yu is filled with somewhat repetitive content, however it ended in 2.5 seasons because of that. And 2.5 isn't much when you consider that it was action packed, full of thought fights and humor (which made it great). Kubo knows how to do it too, and he is diverse without being shallow. If he stopped doing it is because of an external reason, a.k.a. fans as Undying mentioned.

gigantor21

05-27-2008, 08:14 PM

Because Bleach is used the used. But anyway, seeing as I never read Yu Yu (never found the time), I can't compare, but somehow I'm certain it's better than current Bleach. Maybe because there were fewer characters with much focus on? As I understand, most characters appeared and got smothered shortly thereafter without Bleach's 100+ flashback chapters.

Yes. Most characters either got killed off, or recieved a "Where Are They Now?" blurb and were never heard from again. The focus was strictly on Yusuke and Co., and stayed that way through the bulk of the series. But, in a way, I'm glad Ichigo doesn't get as much focus, because I think he's one of the blandest protagonists ever (another big problem with the series). It's how Chad and Orihime and them are neglected that bothers me.

Exactly. It's a common problem in a lot of franchise, really... as everyone who looked can see, popular archtype characters often get overused and whored out (Hitsugaya archtype, Ichigo archtype, etc. for manga, other types for games and the like) because they bring in money. And the result causes a decline in the integrity and interest of the anime/manga, while appealing to more fans.

I really hate how Kubo uses their mere presence as a buffer when the story isn't going well. He's been abusing the hell out of that since Orihime got kidnapped. I think that's the real reason all the captains came back--as Jannic, a MangaHelpers member put it, Kubo's cashing in his "wow, haven't seen them in a while" chips to create excitement where plotting did before. It's as if the characters have BECOME the manga itself--in the main story, Kubo hasn't offered anything beyond showing them and making them fight.

Srsly? Never knew that. Oh well, my mistake then. I still think it's because it was before DBZ became madly popular and set the bar for more festivals of mediocre characters.

Well, Dragon Ball was REALLY popular already once HnI came out. I think the real reason it's lasted so long is because it fills a woefully neglected niche--fighting shonen with realistic characters in realistic settings. It's nice having Ippo to fall back on when I get sick of seeing people thrown through buildings, or getting power-ups pulled out of the authors ass. :p

Possibly, or because he's just trying to make Bleach deep while having too many characters? A 19-page manga is not nearly enough to develop something like that. A novel would be a lot better. Either way, it's more criticism about Bleach :p.

That's why I say the story's scale has become too big for him. ;)

Indeed. With too much focus on too many characters, the location and world become neglected. Kubo could devote more chapters to the locations, just like he did with the graveyard (Grand Fisher arc), the hospital (Don Kanonji) and the like.

The first fight with Grand Fisher was my favorite part of the manga, next to the end of the SS Arc. It was an intense character study on Ichigo, who badly needs more of that development now, and the fight itself was more dramatic than all the HM fights combined. GF is probably the only character I passionately wanted Ichigo to kill--seeing Isshin one-shot him later, then say he didn't feel satisfied, was a robbery IMO.

selenityshiroi

05-31-2008, 10:15 PM

The thing I love most about Bleach is the diversity and appeal of the characters.

However, the fact that there are so many characters makes it difficult to tell the story effectively AND keep the fans interested.

I love most of the characters and everytime I reread the manga I tend to focus on a different group. But if I'm in a Renji mood, there are large gaps between his appearances. An Uruhara-shoten mood? Relatively rare that they show up. And so on. And because there are so many well liked characters, it's difficult to develop them all to the satisfaction of the readers. AND it kind of screws him over for the 'someone needs to die' thing.

And, yes, someone DOES need to die-the good guys CAN'T keep winning forever.

I just can't think of any particular character that I would want gone from the series.

Another complaint is the pacing. However, you don't notice it so much when you read it volume by volume rather than waiting between chapters.

My biggest complaint, though?

*fight**lose**power up**fight**win**rinse**repeat*

ESPECIALLY with Ichigo now using bankai EVERY BLOODY BATTLE! There was a time I LOVED his bankai. It was so cool that it WASN'T really an 'overpowered attack bankai' but a speed enhancing one. Then it got all boring and overused.

My final complaint?

Orihime's ability. The fact that she was shown bringing someone back from the dead seriously worries me. That removes all drama from the manga when you know Kubo has an insta-fix deux ex machina floating around. He should have stuck with shields and normal healing (and a crappy flower throwing attack). Of course, her power is apparantly critical to the Aizen Plot, but it had better be a GOOD plot point because otherwise he will have ruined Orihime for me, and I want to like her SO much.

gigantor21

05-31-2008, 10:55 PM

^ That pretty much killed Orihime for me. Not only is she static, underdeveloped and weak-willed, but she got a free God-like power to make up for it? I call bullshit.

I doubt Kubo can make up for that TBH. The latest Gaiden chapter shows that Aizen, Tousen and Gin can take out several captains as a unit. Put the 3 best Espada and their Fraccion on top of that, and...well, we'll see how that goes. Unless Aizen tries making more Arrancar between fights--which is doubtful--I don't see what good Orihime will be apart from a healer.

La`Punyeta

06-01-2008, 04:00 AM

One thing I have to complain is..Ichigo...when will KT make him better??
He should learn new skills like the Cero and new attacks besides from the overused and uneffective Getsuga tenshou...

gigantor21

06-01-2008, 01:17 PM

^ I was actually thinking about that yesterday, and I realized: doesn't TZ basically turn Ichigo into Hiei from YYH? He was a speed and sword-art specialist whose main attacks were charged by black flame. Ichigo's attacks with the mask have only amplified that parallel.

It was already uninspired enough, but that symmetry with Hiei makes it even worse since the series is FULL of parallels to YYH. In fact, that's why the first pilot was rejected in the first place--and it was Yoshihiro Togashi himself who vouched for Kubo and told him not to give up. Just look at the elements of the story:

Substitute Shinigami = Spirit Detective
Same 3 World Structure (Earth, Good Spirit and Evil Spirit Realms)
Ichigo's lineage = Mazoku (convenient relative gives him insane growth rate)
hence, Isshin = Raizen
Hollows = Demons