honor killing

[Shdo]

seeing that about 20% don't think women should have full rights or even control over their own body(in other threads) i was wondering what is your stand on honor killings.


honor killing is mostly found in middle eastern cultures, basically its killing a family member by the family, usually its females who are SUSPECTED of adultery, homosexuals, rape victims, a female who want a divorce or a women who refuse to marry a prearranged marriage. this killing is usually carried by close members of the family: father, mother, siblings.


first, just because the prime victim is female it doesnt mean that other females in the family wont support it. the logic behind this act is that by dishonoring the family name the girl must be erased and thus erasing the taint on the family name. according to estimates 5000 women die every year out of this practice.


what is more alarming is that in several countries the killing is legalized, to avoid country bashing ill just write the laws themselves: "in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned."

"Murder, injury and beating are excusable if they are committed by a husband on his wife as well as the accomplice at the moment in which he surprises them in the act of adultery."

"he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty."


just you know this legalisation was also spread in some south American countries just 30 years ago.


whats your stand on honor killings.

[WatanukiXXX]

It's wrong. Plain and simple.

It's immoral and is nothing more then legalised (where it has been legalised) murder. Any Islamic society that condones honour killings is engaging in hypocrisy since even the Sharia has no provisions for it.

So it's immoral and also against the rulings in the Qur'an and the Sharia.

[Shdo]

you need to understand that this is far more then just cheating, in the case of cheating it could be considered a passion crime and not honor killing.
i have a problem especially with the kind that happen the most in my country, the brothers(sometimes the father as well) kill the doughter\sister because they SUSPECTED that she was indecent and might had sex. in several incidents in the autopsy it was discovered she was still a virgin.

now what is more shocking is the killers, in my eyes, there was a doctor who did it once! a few months ago one was killed,she refused to marry some1 and her mother heard the father and son talking about killing her, so she warned her and she left to a shelter for abused women but they cought her, the body was still not found and the trial is still on.

what i dont understand is how can they do that when they are lawyrs and doctors and they KNOW that they will go to prison with their father and other brothers, isnt that shamfull to them? the entire family in jail?

[Rain]

I really don't know enough to make a great decision, but from the limited amount of information that has been provided i would have to think that this is wrong.

You said that there are cases where the women happened to be virigns, meaning no one even decided to check on anything, and all they had was an accusation.

Death should not be used as a punishment/problem solver based on groundless accusations

[Shdo]

ofcourse the problem is the culture that sprang this act, if a educated doctor kill his sister because she may or may not have slept with some1 then that shows that something at HOME was the problem, the source. the good thing is that after such act the family wont repeat it because almost every1 are in jail...0.o


what really weird here is that the autorities in my country and many others dont give this act any support and arrest every1 who do that, their life are pretty much over for the next 25+ years yet they keep on doing that. what is the solution?

[Jasse]

Its plainly wrong and tragic.

Not to mention the double standards...Males can do so much worse yet get with little to no punishments in these societies.

In many many of the cases, the girl killed was found to be in fact a virgin...gossips play a large role in motivating many of these crimes.

Well, there is a punishment for girl or the boy who engage in a well known(publicized) pre-martial sex and the punishment is not murder.

[LUV]

WRONG! in every sense of the word

How can a human being lose their life for such pitiful things. I understand that every culture is different, but I was raised to respect people's choices, and if they choose to have sex, or be gay, or whatever... its their life, and they should have every right to choose for themselves and not be killed.

[Primera Espada]

why is this even IN the debate thread?

When I read the title, I sincerely thought it was the more traditional form of honor killing, i.e. a gentleman's duel. Where someone has called one's own honor into question, and you must kill to defend it (usually the honor even relates to fighting/killing ability)

Then I read this and think "it's a debate about a barbaric practice the vast majority of the world doesn't even KNOW about, let alone practice?"

All that, I still voted I'm against it like everyone else.

[Shdo]

the porpuse of this thread is to debate every aspect of the act, including prevention. i dont think we can do much to stop it in the countries of origin but it starting to spread to europe and to america. how do you prevent this murder?

you think it got nothing to do with your country? you think its something that happen at the dark corners of the world? think again.

america: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xs7oKrG7Pc&feature=related
europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVIopgK0XGE

[Thantos-Espada]

but atleast its increasing your knowledge, you wouldn't have known about these acts if they wern't brought to light.


but im also against it.

i can understand how the idea work's but just being able to kill a family member because she has done somthing wrong? would be against normal human nature?

but its a different culture so who are we to complain they could be sat their thinking

"Those crazy britts and americans simply throwing murderers in prision, when they should be killed"


and so sutch^^


but i think that the majority are right in this that its a wrong thing to do.

[Shdo]

now the question is what can you do to stop this from hapening in your country? it starts to appear in the west as well in immigrents communities, what can western society do to stop that practice happen in their immigrent community?

[WatanukiXXX]

Education and information is the way to go. Many of those that engage in honour killings come from societies and cultures that allow it. It's part of their socialisation process.

However now they live in host societies and must abide by the rules and laws of that society. This includes being re-educated on the relative merits of honour killings.
The entire cultural system that enables honour killings to be permissible in say, Jordan does not exist in the United Kingdom ( pressures to marry a virgin, inequality for women, equal employment rights etc). Plus it is also against the Qur'an and the Sharia and the local law of the land (UK).

Most importantly, reeducation on the value of shame and dishonour. This would require at least one or two generations to work. To disentangle the notion of family honour from that of the women. To recognise women's private, individual, personal rights trumps any notion of collective shame. To make it clear that honour killings are wrong by any standard.

If this requires trampling over some minority culture so be it. Cultures that do not adapt to new times and circumstances, die. I for one will not lament when this abhorrent practice finally goes the way of the Dodo :hmph.

[Primera Espada]

o.O Western countries, and shucks, MOST countries across the world don't have to "stop this spread"

It's ILLEGAL in most countries.

It's only going to happen when people are disregarding the laws of their own government to do whatever their previous culture demanded of them before they moved to this new country.

They'll go to jail.

End of story, right? Did I miss something?

[Shdo]

you do miss something, putting people in jail dosnt help, you just wait for the next time the commit murder and throw them to jail, till the next time and the next. there are communities who support this act of murder in your country and just putting them in jail wont stop it. the concepts of the society that do that must change from the buttom and maybe there is a need for greater amount of intervention?

[Primera Espada]

what do you mean they just wait until they get out and kill again and again. You can only get away with that once or twice before they send you down the river in the US, I dunno about other countries though.

also in the US, conspiracy to commit murder would land the ENTIRE family in jail.

[Unicorn]

I remember something like this happening recently in the UK...

Well-educated women who lived and grew up in UK, being forced to return to their parents homeland to marry a matchmade husband. (No, don't think Iran or Saudi Arabia... this includes India too)

The girl refused and wanted to continue her studies. The father / brothers 'avenged' their honour (they promised her away, remember?) by killing her.

Another case involved a brother who could not accept his sister's choice of husband, and killed her before the wedding.

The killers were hauled to jail, can't remember what their sentances are.

...

Methinks its a deep-seated cultural issue, and its really hard when vast networks of extended families are involved. One cannot just re-educate these family networks and change centuries of ... errr... tradition... and expect it to work overnight.

I feel glad that in UK, at least, the killers faced justice. Most males in the original countries get away scot-free, which I hope to see changed. Once they realise they can't get away freely, maybe this 'tradition' will slow down.

...

This opens another can of worms... men who use this excuse as a plea to receive no / lighter sentances, and families who refuse to accept the law of the country that they are currently living in.

[Shdo]

what do you mean they just wait until they get out and kill again and again. You can only get away with that once or twice before they send you down the river in the US, I dunno about other countries though.

also in the US, conspiracy to commit murder would land the ENTIRE family in jail.

as long as you dont deal with the source it will only happen again and again, you arrested those murderers you arrested 50 more murderers? those are still 50 girls that were killed. each year 5000 women are killed in this practice world wide.

its like riots, you stop the riot and after a year you got another, as long as you dont deal with the source of the riots they will keep coming. the concept that you should deal with the symptom and not the disease itself is flawed

[Unicorn]

the concept that you should deal with the symptom and not the disease itself is flawed

How would you suggest to try and stop this practice / tradition / (can't think of any other word to use)?

[Shdo]

WatanukiXXX offered a good idea but i dont think its enough. for countries like the UK who got their 'traditionals' from outside via immigration i think the solution would be both his and more strict control over immigration, a country isnt obligated to accept everyone into it, either you came to respect the rules of england above your tradition or you can try another country.

in my country case its more difficult cuz the 'traditionals' are here since the start and there is no immigration and i dont see solution in our case when i do see something in UK case.

i think that the first thing that should be done is to contain the act where we can which is in the west, at the same time there should be much more pressure on muslim countries to to take this act outside of the law system, but i dont fool myself, this will take years on years and with 5000 dead each years we are facing gendercide in those countries and all we can do is to try and stop it from happening in our countries.

[Shdo]

saying that because its rooted in them or something then its impossiable to stop it is really running from the problem, it means that the country cannot or will not protect its citizens, it means that the country is incapable to make its own citizens obey the rules, now its because there is a tradition of killing one daughter but what will you do when it will be to kill YOUR daughter?because that will be the end result, agood example was this case i heard about where a upper class family was insulted by a guy from a lower class, i think he was talking to one of the upper class family girls or something. anyway they redeemed their honor by raping his sister several times.

honor restored?

now it dosnt concern you so you can say its their problem, they should deal with it. but in the end it WILL concern you, when some1 you know will be affected by it.

[Unicorn]

in my country case its more difficult cuz the 'traditionals' are here since the start and there is no immigration and i dont see solution in our case when i do see something in UK case.

But you yourself highlighted how difficult this is. Is this really 'running from the problem' and 'the country is incapable to make its own citizens obey the rules'?

You are asking for solutions, but from what I can see, you also admit how hard it is to change deep-seated culture.

[Shdo]

in my case its more difficult, i also stated that in the UK its possiable to take more actions, if the problem is from immigrents then you simply shut the door or start be more selective.
on my country case its not a immigrent problem and therefor we dont have that option, we got only to change their culture but to what? in the case of the UK those who come there should have at least some level of wishing to assimilate (unless they came only for the more wealthy life) but its not our case, in other words we are pretty fucked up while the west still got hope.

[manfan]

I was referring to this....
the porpuse of this thread is to debate every aspect of the act, including prevention. i dont think we can do much to stop it in the countries of origin but it starting to spread to europe and to america. how do you prevent this murder?

you think it got nothing to do with your country? you think its something that happen at the dark corners of the world? think again.

america: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xs7oKrG7Pc&feature=related
europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVIopgK0XGE
I'm sorry for sounding upright horrid, but reality is there, it's a Muslim trademark. Trademark as in whenever you hear/read such practices, the first thing that comes through your mind, 'Are they Muslims or not?'. And then if the answer is not, the second question that would come across your mind would be, 'Did they come from Middle East or not?' And often than not, Middle East are always associated with Islam, their cultures practices, social systems and beliefs.

How many percentage do you think honor killings are made by people who are not Muslims AND Middle Easts?

Take it as you will that I'm insinuate things that some other people would not like to hear it straight to their face.....but please blame it on the trademark,...the common perception that a majority people have about this 'honor killing'

Now to go back to the question....I still stick to my own stand. Nothing. Nothing can be done to prevent the 'honor killing' that is perpertrated by people who think that they know the best for themselves and family. Of course, if I am the country's authority....I would take them, put them in a trial and sentence them according to the laws of the country where they are in.....there is no different class of punishments for different type of people.

But to try and do things to prevent such things from happening again? No, I won't. Less I would be accused of being an oppressive tyrants who suppress certain people's rights, free will to practice the culture they like to.

These people knew the consequences of killing people, taking away their lives. They want their honor restored, therefore..... they might as well go through death/prison sentence if they want their honor to be restored.

Hopefully these people would learn mistakes of the stringent and fair punishments the authorities give on people who had commited honor killings for the sake of the his and family pride. But if not.....well, there's more people then.....who would go to jail because they had killed/raped other people.

[Shdo]

that is the same view that allow 5000 women to die each year in the practice of honor killing world wide.
the deal is that you can at least decrease that crime rate by some masuares, first is to increase the penalty on it because this social behavior is unacceptable on the pretence of culture. secondly is to increase the efforts to assimilate those minorities so that the old ways such as honor killing would be dropped, and finally since its s immigrent problem then you should at least be more careful on who you bring in, even if the person is educated that dosnt mean he isnt very traditional, many of those murders were carried by educated people (we had a doctor who killed his sister)

[manfan]

5000 females died 'honor killing' worldwide...per year,...... in compared to the number of accidents that happened in your own country, per year?

5000 murder/rape cases because of 'honor killings' per year that happened 'worldwide'....as in compared the number of other murder/rape cases that happened in your own country, per year?

I can understand now why certain government authorities do not take any step to countermeasure it.

[Shdo]

that is twisted way of thinking, its like okay murder isnt a issue because there is genocide in darfur. those are unrelated topics, honor killing is something that happen because the family feel obligated to kill their daughters because of social norms and petty murder that happen for many other reasons, the diffrence is that petty murder isnt accepted by society while honor killing is incoureged by their society.

[WatanukiXXX]

Methinks its a deep-seated cultural issue, and its really hard when vast networks of extended families are involved. One cannot just re-educate these family networks and change centuries of ... errr... tradition... and expect it to work overnight.


Which is why in my last post here I said the re-education process will take at least a generation or two to have results.

It is not impossible to change cultural mindsets. Culture is not some sacred, inviolate keepsake that people hold onto no matter what. Culture consists of cultural practices and behaviour but at the core, is supported by cultural values. Change the values and you change the practices. At the same time cultural practices are also governed by the principle of practicality and effectiveness. If a practice is no longer relevant and in fact causes more harm then good, then it will slowly die away.

For example:
Honour killings might have been a way to ensure that one's family can protect its future (by having the virgin girl marry a rich prospect and the family ties that will ensue) but if women are more able to earn a living without marriage being an issue, then the need for honour killings is negated.

A lot of these societies are Muslim ( I admit that), but the practice of honour killing is NOT sanctioned in Islam. It is not sanctioned by the Qur'an, Islam's holiest text and preeminent source of spiritual and temporal law. It is not sanctioned by the Sunna or Hadith (Traditions and Sayings (reported) of the Prophet) which form the bulk of the Sharia's source of legitimacy, it is not even sanctioned by the Sharia itself, the legal structure that most Muslims believe is divinely approved Law.

So as far as religious and moral issues are concerned, honour killings are rightly viewed as wrong.

Then where does the legitimacy accorded to them come from? Cultural values. Many of these Islamic societies happen to view women as repositories of family and macho honour. Any women of a man's household is said to bear the family and the man's honour. Shame is viewed as the ultimate taboo and is avoided at all costs, even at the cost of life. Not surprisingly, it's a custom for men to distort and interpret religious scripture to uphold their own prejudices. The scripture itself doesn't condone honour killings, but the men can interpret it to say so.

as an example: The U.S Supreme Court upheld the constitutional and legal legitimacy of the Jim Crow laws (equal but separate facilities for blacks and whites in the South) for 40 years (I think) before striking them down as unconstitutional. Same Constitution, different, indeed opposite interpretations.

Same thing can happen and has happened with scripture. Correcting scriptural misnterpretations requires training a whole corps of religious scholars with a progressive and inclusive viewpoint. It means not importing mullas and imams from backwater places like Pakistan or Algeria or some other places where the culture is at odds with that of the host country (like the UK).

These progressive moderate scholars will in turn help in re-socialising immigrant families and their kids. People are not born with a gene to kill their daughters when in shame, it is educated and socialised into them. What needs to be done is to re-socialise the immigrants with new values, still derived from their Islamic heritage, but taking into account being in a host country and living in modern times. By

-Emphasizing that honour killings is not sanctioned by Islam
-Emphasizing that honour killings is wrong and is deplored in Islam
-Emphasizing that honour killings are morally unjustifiable.
-Emphasizing that woman are NOT repositories of family or male honour
-Emphasizing that woman are individuals, with rights separate from any collective, family or cultural ones such as the right to life, the right to choose, to right to their own body etc

It will take at least a generation or two. Only when their values are more or less in sync with those of the host country will we see the instances of honour killings dropping. And they will drop, just needs a lot of patience. As the immigrant community becomes more integrated with the wider host community, so there will be less discrepancy between the values of both. In the meanwhile:

Short-term measures:
-Heavier penalties for those that engage in honor killings
-Have them sent for religious counselling where a moderate scholar will point out that their actions are a sin and the shame of killing their own daughter far outweighs their imagined shame of their honour being outraged.
-Shame them publicly in newspapers and in the immigrant community. Make it a point to show that they committed murder and instead of protecting their honour, has shamed them instead.
-Provide support networks and relief centres for women and girls who feel they may be under threat.

So is it possible to actually eliminate honour killings in immigrant communities? Yes, but it will take a lot of hard work and patience. Not to mention investments in time and money. But if done right then this practice will fade away in developed countries within a generation or two.

[mechaqua]

Honor killings are a backwards way of thinking it is murder, I like to think that as a civilization we have evolved beyond this way of thinking. its unfortunate that this vile practice of justified murder, is still practiced in the world

[Shdo]

an important thing, in my country case there are many examples where the girl came to the police and complained that she fear from murder, the police would send her to a safe place or will get a local elder to protect her and in the end the family still will get them. the family will be warned before hand and non the less they hunt the girl down. they promise that the wont and when the situation will subside after a month or two they will strike. ofcourse the police know who to turn to and the always admit they did it. they dont even try to lie.

its this determind behavior that leave us at a loss, the limit was when a few years ago a doctor killed his sister, a man who vowed to save life.