Orihime's Fate

[Arrancar_Fan]

this is a debating thread about ur thoughts on Orihime's fate in Hueco Mundo. here are the suggestions:

1-She should stay with the arrancars cause they deserve her more

vs.

2-She should be rescued by her friends so she can return home

now, u may be thinking 'duh! Orihime should be rescued! this is such a stupid debate!'

well id like to say that there must be people out there with different suggestions. personally, i think id rather her staying in Hueco Mundo. y? cause i feel like orihime developed more of her character with the arrancars. i find she has become stronger and that she has become maturer while staying with them. u may think im pretty delusional after reading this but i really feel that, if she tried, Orihime could make the espadas, if not the arrancars in general, change a little in their attitudes 9good or bad) towards humans. i hope im not the only one who thinks this way. dont get me wrong though! id love for her to go home to her friends and old life, but i dont think she would ever be the same again.

ur thoughts??

Rules:

1 - essays are allowed but if u have them on another site, please link
2 - Be polite
3 - No bashing (characters, user, etc)
4 - Respect BA rules (I'm going to get the rules from spacecat-san if there are)

[Shdo]

i dont think you can base anything to support that she will change the arrancar, they seems to hate her, the girls sure are.
and i didnt got why the arrancars deserve her more? as for maturity its clear you are right she was much matured during her prisonment but dont you think that all this maturity is pointless if she dont return and show it? if her friends dosnt comment on this?

i think a more likely fate is death, not because she is annoying or something but because she can ressurect and that takes the sting out of battles, she must lose this ability or something.

[HaNa]

I prefer for her to stand up by herself and figure out how to escape and join her friends instead of waiting for them,,she has an influential power after all..she NEEDS to be developed and fight her own fate.. Depending on her friends all the time won't bring her any better.. hopefully that's what kubo has been planning for her from the start..

edit:

I think it's better for her to join her friends and return to human world since aizen said he's no longer needs her, even if he was laying..it's better to stay away from him and his plans..

[Shdo]

maybe she will ressurect every1 who ever died in the show with a massive rejection and then will force both sides to have a cease fire?

[imamess]

I think standing up on her own is what Kubo's been planning for at least awhile. A big buildup in Orihime's character is her eagerness to help and subsequent failure to help in the way she sees everyone else help. I don't feel her crying over Ichigo was simple just happiness that he's ok, but since she started by talking about how everyone around her protected her, I think that she was also upset with herself.

We have to remember that Orihime has technically been a burden all her life. (I'm not trying to say that it was bad, because she really had no control over the situation) Her brother gave up his life to raise her away from what would have been a horrible family life. She's shown to be self-sacrificing even back when her hair got cut. Her brother loved her hair, and when it got cut, in order to not worry him, she tells him that she cut, and not that she was bullied. Tatsuki stood up to the bullies after her brother died.

Her powers were first born out of the desire to protect Tatsuki, and they came back again when she told Yoruichi that she wanted to go to SS to protect Ichigo. Then along the way she watched Ishida protect her in SS. She watched Chad get his arm ripped off buying time with Yammy.

Given all this development from as early as chapter 42, she's not about to get tossed aside now. I think the odds are more in favor of her staying in SS and doing something to the hougyouku. Now it's really unclear as far as Aizen's intentions are concerned, but it's certainly not a useless substance.

[Jasse]

I agree with above said.

The natural development for Orihime is like what others have said here.

Orihime will start taking things in her hand right now.

I expect that she will undertake a very burdensome mission(whether it is reject the houkygou/Karakura town i dunno)..but she was a character who had often felt inferior about her self from the earliest chapter of Bleach and had been shielded almost her entire life.

If Orihime does nothing significant in the end, I'll be somewhat pissed.
Kubo had spent many chapters developing her and i would feel that development would be wasted if nothing fruitful comes out of it.

I hope she leaves a mark in Bleach by doing something significant in the end.

I am not sure what you meant about the Arrancar point, but yes she has a room of growing stronger with them...because of hostile atmosphere she lacks the company of those who keeps her safety and well being at check which forces her to act and grow on her accord.

[Rain]

She better go back to karakura with her friends, and this is what i think will happen.

Its not like Orihime has a great relationship with the arrancar, and her friends care about her, so there is no reason to stay in HM

she'll go back to karakura, and everything will be like how it was before

[Arrancar_Fan]

before there are any more replays, i would just like to say that my first post was my own option. please, if u dont like it, don't take it seriously!

oh, and the little comment about her making them softer is just my own fantasy. it won'y happen. i no that.

[furato]

Did Orihime get more mature with the arrancar? Perhaps she did, but only in a way a child became more mature after surviving a war or living in the streets. One thing that's certain is that nobody cares for her in Hueco Mundo. The only possible exception is Ulquiorra, but even then, it's in a twisted way.

Honestly, I don't want to see Orihime choosing to stay in Hueco Mundo, regardless of shat she might be able to do to thwart Aizen's plan. It's a different matter if she had a plan and she knows full well the extent of her powers, but as of now, if Hatchi's words are of any worth, she still doesn't know how to fully utilise her powers. In the current condition, after her friends fought to near-death to bring her home, to see her rejecting them would be... rude. So if Orihime can be brought home, I'd like to see her brought home.

It's a different matter if Orihime is not rescued because she's being taken away again against her will. There are still the Primera to Tercera Espada to be reckoned with (unless they go with Aizen) and Quatro should be coming out any minute.

But somewhere along the way, Orihime has to do something with her power. Kubo's been hyping it up too much for it to be pure diversion.

[mebidtt13]

I think Orihime should be rescued and return with Ichigo and the others. She doesn't really belong with the Arrancars... But that's just what I think ^^"

[LUV]

She is part of the good guys, there is no way she should stay in Hueco Mundo. I want her to mature and instead of crying over everything, I want her to use her powers to pwn someone. I know she is not the aggressive type, but I would like for her character to not be such a pushover. I hate that, she seems so weak, yet she has an amazing power.

She needs to go back to Karakura and fight the war with all the people that love her.

[Shdo]

her res power must be removed, either by her death or any other way, she must lose it or give it up for the story to have somekind of risk...its just too much uber.

[LUV]

Nah, I don't think that her power effects the story that much, plus, even if she loses it, its not like anyone in Bleach really dies. So it doesn't really matter if she has it or not.

I think her power is awesome, and she won't die, after all, no one dies in Bleach...

[Shdo]

and here the thing, they do die! its just that she bring them back. that tottaly reduce any suspanse of what will happen, lets say a good guy dies at the end. no one will feel sad because they all knows she will just bring them back to life...that suck.

[LUV]

Oh come on, why the hell would you want a good guy to die? :cry

I for one don't think that she is powerful enough to bring people back from the dead, she can only heal them right now, and if she does get strong enough to heal them, well good for her, the good guys need some sort of leverage against the bad guys.....

[Shdo]

she already did, once for that arrancar girl who got her uppet body incinirated and also its seems that she brought back ichigo after ulquira shoved a hand to his heart (when you dont move for an hour with your eyes open and a hole in your heart you are pretty much dead in my eyes) since she can bring back the dead there wont be any resolve at the end. for example Aizen kills rukia and ichigo dosnt give a damn because she would be brought to life later, he dont get resolve and simply die. then while other characters die he is ressuracted and the endless cycle of boring 'deaths' begin. it would simply be crappy if there is no threat of dying watsoever. even if no good guy would die it should be an option, something to fear from. orihime power takes that out of the picture.

[LUV]

Oh shoot, I forgot all about Melony and them, thats true, she did bring them back from death, but still, I mean, I'm not her fan at all, but I don't want her to die either. I don't think that just because she has this amazing power, she should die, that is not fair to her.

Anyways, like I said, whether she has the power or not, no one really dies in Bleach, see, even Melony got brought back from the dead :XD

[Shdo]

of course its not fair to her, its TK fault for giving her this hax power. its a mistake he must correct. sadly i see only death as an option for that, at least a logical one. they will most likely invent some stupid reason why she cant bring anyone else back.

[Shadoblak]

I feel pretty sorry for anyone hoping to solve Shonen problems with logic.............Especially logic that includes a central character's death...know what happens in that situation?
She tries to sacrifice herself, everyone else jumps in to sacrifice themselves and save her.....She may lose her powers for some reason or just never use them again like those three tools in Yu Yu Hskusho, but it's pretty unlikely that she'd die....

[LUV]

:lmao

Well, if Kubo decides to kill her off, she will have a lot of angry fangirls knocking on his door. I do understand what you are saying, but frankly, we all know that Kubo does everything for a reason, and the way I see it, her power is greatly needed so hopefully she won't die and will get to return home with all of her friends....

[rayne_himura]

i think most people hate her cause she turned for a weirdo yet happy girl to some emo freak. in this filler episodes that we have now she actully surprised me, she stood up and helped. apart from that in the HM arc she really did annoy me. it may have been worse in the anime than in the manga.

[LUV]

:lmao Rayne, so what, do you want her to stay in HC or go back to the real world with her friends...

Its so interesting how this "debate" is turning into a whole different convo lol

Seriously, she belongs in the real world, she is a human and needs to be with her friends, with or without powers, she needs to go back.

[rayne_himura]

well im know its impossible for her to die... >> (am i going off topic? xD)
i think KT expecting us to feel sorry for her or something? cause right now, all i see is a stupid, depressed, weak girl going "Kurosaki-kun, Kurosaki-kun"

[Spartan27]

Well I just want to say good luck to Arrancar_Fan and I hope the thread doesn't eventually get trashed like all these Orihime debate threads seem to.

[Orihime-Chan]

Too many hot guys in HM to leave behind..:nooo but her real place is with her friends.:amuse

[rayne_himura]

Spartan: you see with every forum some of the fans get bored discussing the regular anime/manga, so they pick apart the most insignificant thing from every show in the hopes that it'll spark a more interesting conversation :XD

j/k peace. :D

[Rain]

Shado- "those three tools from YYH" :lmao



i don't see why her powers are seen as so dangerous/harmful to the story

she can bring the dead back to life, ok, no good guy actually died before, but at least now they would die, she'll just bring them back is all:p

and just because she can bring them back to life it doesn't mean she will

Her fate IMO is the same as everyone elses. After this arc she will return to karakura will her friends, and then she'll be a part of the next arc (if there is one) just as everyone else would be

[rayne_himura]

Orihime's a "token", which in this case means "stereotypical anime cliche."

and being that she's IMO the worst type of token, the "friend or childhood friend with secret feelings"...i can't stand her.

she should just go back to her friends in Karakura.

[Rain]

shes not exactly the childhood friend (she didn't know Ichigo until high school or just before)

and her feelings aren't exactly a secret shes hiding from everyone, mainy characters have picked up on it, and she doesn't deny them at all

but yeah, her place is in karakura, no where else

[rayne_himura]

oh it was Tatsuki not Orihime :3

i dont really hate her but her character is so weak, dependent, and annoying, i've rewatched and re-read through the beginning to the end and her character development is minimal, the only big change is her getting powers

beyond that she's just so pathetic and mentally weak, she's not a fighter yet she keeps trying to define herself in that context. she's saved so many people's lives but never gives herself credit for it

i'm really hoping she dies, her character annoys me to no end, either that or she finally realizes her strengths as a healer and stops being so damn dependent and pathetic
:)

[Rain]

We just have two differing views of her character i suppose

you see her as dependent, i see her as non self centered and her friends are the most important thing to her

you see her as soemone who defines herself incorrectly, I see her as someone who is trying to improve her self where she is weakest

you see her as mentally weak, i see her as confident (as of late)

its amazing how differently we can take the same scenes isn't it xD

[Shdo]

its not okay that if she bring back from the dead then maybe they will kill someone, that just dosnt count, there is no risk of losing anyone, it start to be a sure bet where every single minor character will stay alive no matter what. well that suck, i preffer that no1 will die by the end but that she wont have that power, at least then there would be a small chance that some1 actually die and there would be somekind of risk and intrest in the battles. how intresting would people last speeches would be if they had known about orihime powers? for example rukia after her fight with #9 when she bleed her ass on the floor, instead of talking about refusing to die alone she would say, 'oh well, orihime will bring me back to life and good as new. no need for big fancy monologues about the meaning of life and sudden understanding of how the world works...*she yawns and die*" after sometime they bring her corpse to orihime she rez her and rukia would wake up as if it was nothing.


haxed abilities must be nurfed, TK need a patch seriously.
and btw, i think that her way of life is much more brave then anyone else, i mean healing your enemy as well as your ally? showing only care for others? that is alot harder then hating somone and is pretty impressive in my book.



and rain have a point, there is a thin line between two diffrent definition, for example, is ichigo brave? or reckless?

[rayne_himura]

what is this, twin rivalry? lol :XD

Orihime have the potential to do better. such as the times where she defended Tatsuki. she eventually overcame that obstacle and defeated the enemy. there was also the time when Ichigo was fighting Yammi. she was so desperately scared for Ichigo's life that she risked her safetly and rushed in to help him, but failed unfortunately. or what about the time in SS when she tried her hardest to fight Jidanbo's brother. i see these times as where she did try her best to her abilities.

the point im trying to make here is that those were times where she put her life on the line for her friends without thinking of consequenses. i just wish that Orihime would do something other than be a spectator on the sidelines. IMHO Orihime has the highest potential for becoming a true heroine but as of now she hasn't shown any signs of being one.

[MOF^^]

i dont really hate her but her character is so weak, dependent, and annoying, i've rewatched and re-read through the beginning to the end and her character development is minimal, the only big change is her getting powers

beyond that she's just so pathetic and mentally weak, she's not a fighter yet she keeps trying to define herself in that context. she's saved so many people's lives but never gives herself credit for it

i'm really hoping she dies, her character annoys me to no end, either that or she finally realizes her strengths as a healer and stops being so damn dependent and pathetic

Er,I can't agree about everything
She is not weak.Weakness is lack of power.And she has some powers even if they are not so strong she just doesn't have resolve.that's one of her biggest flaws,she is waiting for people do to everything possible instead of her and the lack of resolve is a terrible thing.It's not like Orihime is weak,nobody is because when you have enough determination and when you believe in yourself,you can fight.But her lack of ability to think of herself as something more than a burden like in Hueco Mundo and the fact the she just feels weak(or her love of Ichigo makes her feel weak).

Love is supposed to make people better,you will say,but it depends on the love and the depth of the love.It's not a pairing debate so I am not gonna talk about this now.

i think most people hate her cause she turned for a weirdo yet happy girl to some emo freak. in this filler episodes that we have now she actully surprised me, she stood up and helped. apart from that in the HM arc she really did annoy me. it may have been worse in the anime than in the manga.

I doubt fillers are important,they don't mean anything to Orihime and her character because her fate is decied by Kubo not the anime team. I don't hate her because of this,I don't even dislike her.I like her character but I dislike her in Hueco Mundo.It isn't hard to be thrown in all of this,but Rukia didn't become like this in Soul Society.Probably it depends on the character,I'm not sure,but she is just letting herself be weak and she wants to be stronger but the doesn't do anything to do it.

I'm still sure Orihime will grow as a character,Kubo likes developing.I hate how she is struggling around in the arc and how her character is sometimes strong,sometimes weak,it's getting annoying.

As for her fate,well she will go in Karakura,even if there are some huge differences between the two arcs,it's still a typical one where the kidnapped one is rescued.

[Shdo]

i dont think its her role to be a heroine, she isnt the one who fight and shouldnt be a fighter. as a ex soldier i can tell you its not the warrior that matter but what the warrior fight for, its the children in the street and the elderly in the coffe shop. orihime is there to shine on the tired combatants with her light and kindness, and with that she out preform her effectivness for the team then if she was a fighter.

its her refusal to kill that make her character important.

a heroine shouldnt always be a fighter, for example the heroine in scrapped princes, she is a rally point for the fighters, she dosnt kill a single enemy and her story is full of self doubt till the final episode, her only great moment (where she caused the enemy to lose badly) was when she died and activated the prophecy. sometimes its the flag barrer that hold the most important role.

[Rain]

shdo- wait we actually agree on something :crazy, lol

as for the death and rukia topic

thats a good point, but i see the scene differently than you it would seem

Looking at that scene from the readers perspective (seeing bleach as astory) you are completely correct

but i also look at the scene from a writers perspective

death is too permanent, thus why its avoided. So i think the reason that kubo had that touching scene was because it would hold so much meaning to have her die, and her "death" isn't permanent because he could always make use of Orihime

twinny- i agree with that, i wish she would be more involved and not just watch from the sidelines (damn kubo is stopping it:p)

and i probably do look at it more of what could she became rather than what she currently is

One thing ive said before in another FC, orihime is the only main character (character from karakura, i pick this because they have had the most battles) who has never run from her enemy even once. All others ran from the opponent once when they felt the were totally outmatched, Orihime has always stood her ground

[rayne_himura]

twinny: see? im not just hating :XD

i also used to sympathize with her, but she just started to get pitiful. i would like to see Orihime stand on her own for once, and phase out of that childish behavior. i would like her resolve to surpass her fears and her issues, and stop clinging onto others.

[MOF^^]

One thing ive said before in another FC, orihime is the only main character (character from karakura, i pick this because they have had the most battles) who has never run from her enemy even once. All others ran from the opponent once when they felt the were totally outmatched, Orihime has always stood her ground

In the fight with Yammy she did try to defend herself and protect Tatsuki and Chad.But sometimes it's more intelligent to run instead of waiting on the battle field doing nothing and that's exactly what she did.After her fairy(okay I don't remember the name,don't kill me) was beaten she just stood there and waited for Yammy to hit her.If Ichigo hadn't come she would have been dead right now,along with Tatsuki and Sado.
So we can't argue if Orihime is a figther or not,because it's obvious she isn't.But she can be more useful if her resolve was bigger and if she didn't always wait someone else to fight instead of her.

Orihime and heroine is impossible and as much as I like her,I can never say she is able to be the main girl.Firstly,there is always Rukia who will always be more popular and she just suits to be a heroine.i'm not saying she is better,no offence to Hime fans,but that's not shoujo,Bleach is a shounen where the heroines are supposed to be real fighters.

[Rain]

twinny- i didn't think you were just bashing, thats why i actually engaged you in discussion:lmao

i mean, im a huge fan of Orihime, and i wish she would overcome all her internal conflicts too, there is nothing wrong with feeling that way at all

but again, i look at it differently

i see it as we finally get a characer in a shonen manga that has clear strenghts and weaknesses. Someone who desires to be personally strong, not just train to be in another battle

I dont love everything about her, but i think that because of that, she is most realistic character in the series. She is looking for the (emotional) strength to fight, other than just having it and being a battle junky

and this may have gone really off-toic, but every orihime thread does i guess, lol

MOF- it would have better for her, herself, to run. But the thing is, all her fights involve another person, where she chooses to protect them over her own safety

Running is smarter for the individual, but it takes more strength/conviction to stay when you know you can't win, IMO at least

[Shdo]

what about the time she refused to heal ichigo? she stood up to the 6th espada and still kept her ideals of not fighting, she only healed ichigo because he asked her to. in her way she is more impressive then most characters, her refusal to add to ciolance is much more advance then most characters.

yes ichigo, i am looking at you and your 'cutting the menos from the legs to make his head in reach' mentality. in a world where everyone cut at one another without even trying to find another way, orihime behavior isnt weak, its remarkable, its unique and more impressive then her starting to slice people up out of rage and general OOCines.


and rain you already said that before.

[rayne_himura]

twinny: :hugs
and it would be fun to see her kinda crack in someway, embrace the dark side or something (lol, Dark Orihime), so many fun things she could do with her ability, and look good at it if she stayed in that costume. but thats prolly just as cliche/bad as what she is like now.

different individuals react to the same surroundings in different ways.
again, while she seemed to be a happy-go-lucky character, much of that was a facade. for example,her so-called airheadness didn't hide the fact that she was an excellent student.

also, people change, i mean, look at the personality change of Ichigo in the past 100 chapters. he is basically all over the place. maybe she's just having a little "rainy season."

KT.. do something :yell

meh. well, no matter, in the end we should have a real in depth look into a character.

[MOF^^]

it would have better for her, herself, to run. But the thing is, all her fights involve another person, where she chooses to protect them over her own safety

Running is smarter for the individual, but it takes more strength/conviction to stay when you know you can't win, IMO at least

Staying there and waiting for Yammy to kill her was exactly like running away. She just waited to be hit damn it,I was very surprised especially comparing to her behaviour in Soul Society.
If Yammy had hit her she would also be dead.If Ichigo hadn't come.So just staying and waiting is not useful either. Because if she dies there,that means Tatsuki and Chad would die too.If she had ran,they would have followed her and their attention wouldn't be on her friends.

[ch1mera]

Well, she is not a fighter, I have to agree with that. She wants to use her power to fight, and I think that it´s a good thought. Well, at least we all agree that she is not weak..

I think that Orihime can be the surprise element, I have the feeling that she has resolve to be strong no matter what, no matter why, because she want to be with her friends and she want to protect them and my opinion is that she can do that, if she put in her mind that she can do it. That´s her main issue. And that´s why she ask Hacchi to teach her in how to fight, because she want to develop her abillity. Obviously, things didn´t went well.

I think that Orihime´s power reflect her personality. She doesn´t know the extent of her powers because there is a power that everyone has. Before Hacchi nobody showed such skill. That is, she doesn´t know the extent of the potential of her personality simply because there is a path taken by a majority, she has to find her own way, appropriate to it and that, coupled with the potential, can develop as much as possible. Someone with skills of healing can become a warrior, but will not be as good as it would be if was a doctor :D
That´s why I think that she have her own goals without going in the path of fighting.

I don´t see Orihime as a fighter like the others. What I mean is that she is a fighter in her own way. She can do everything because maybe she has the power to do that, but the true is that she have afraid to use it. That´s why she is always insecure about the things around her.

I don´t think that she can kill someone, even if she develop her ability. She don´t have the intent to kill. But it´s important refer that she never thought about killing someone. She never had that intent.
The problem is that she don´t have confidence in her own ability nor in her personality to do something like that. She need to gain more trust in herself to do something big with her powers. She has to forget her insecurity, she has to bury all her insecurity if she really want to fight. But if she develop her power, it can be a real deal, I have to say!

I agree with Mof. If she don´t have the strenght to fight, it would be better for her to run. But she can´t run, because that´s always about other person, not only her..

[Shdo]

its like when anime characters block their enemy from hurting their friends with this stand where you look like a combonation of a A and a T

T
A

there is no point for that, the enemy will cut you and your ally but its the act of staying with them and being a target for the enemy instead of your friends that makes the act meaningful. that kind of self sacrifice and refusal to leave your friends is very common in those animes even when they dont have anychance of living the ordeal.

[Rain]

Staying there and waiting for Yammy to kill her was exactly like running away. She just waited to be hit damn it,I was very surprised especially comparing to her behaviour in Soul Society.

If Yammy had hit her she would also be dead.If Ichigo hadn't come.So just staying and waiting is not useful either. Because if she dies there,that means Tatsuki and Chad would die too.If she had ran,they would have followed her and their attention wouldn't be on her friends.

she didn't wait to be killed, she fought back, she actually did the attacking

and Yammy hit her good, she didn't die (although she looked pretty damn hurt)

but if she ran, they wouldn't have followed her, she was trash, just as the others, and those two were dying.

Leaving your friends when they are dying just to save yourself isn't the sign of a hero IMO xD

[MOF^^]

she didn't wait to be killed, she fought back, she actually did the attacking

and Yammy hit her good, she didn't die (although she looked pretty damn hurt)

but if she ran, they wouldn't have followed her, she was trash, just as the others, and those two were dying.

Leaving your friends when they are dying just to save yourself isn't the sign of a hero IMO xD

I meant before Ichigo came and after the fairy died.She did wait and Ichigo stopped Yammy's hand

[rayne_himura]

there are so many different reasons that vary from her being weak and not being able to defend herself or her friends, leading to the conclusion that she's only in the way

[Shdo]

if she had run at that point yammi would have cero her anyways along with her friends, there was no running option.

[ch1mera]

You know, things would be different if her power was more developed in that time. Like I said, it´s always about the others. She is always thinking about the others..
It would be better if she run, ok! But for me doesn´t mean stupidity. She is always in danger situations, but she never run away. She´s not afraid of what can happen with her. She may know that she can´t handle with the situation, but she didn´t run..

And Tsubaki got hurt, he didn´t died

[Rain]

MOF- oh, right then. yeah, i agree with shdo, at that point, there was no escape, she did what she could, all she could

it was just not enough. Running would have only gotten her and her friends killed

[rayne_himura]

she goes into the overrated, "damsel-in-distress, can't fight for crap stereotype" and the "Ichigo coming as the knight in shining armor" is getting old. But, you never know, Bleach isnt done yet. Orihime could pull a fast one on all of us and does something really drastic like destroy the orb (don't know the proper spelling in Japanese) and fight the Espada (getting way over my head, now).

[Shdo]

its like in macross, one fight through a trasforming mecha and one fight with a song. both are needed for victory and frankly its seems the singer is more important.


orihime resolve will be shown in a massive healing or massive protection, not in slicing someone to two. there are many ways to fight beside hacking the enemy. if you dont see that there are other ways then hacking people, then *enter teacher mode* shame on you.

[LUV]

OMG!! This thread will get closed in no time.....:lmao

Well, I kinda agree with Rayne, of course, I don't hate Orihime, after all, Kubo didn't create such a character for nothing, he created her to add to the storyline, and I think she does that in her own way, as minimal as that might be.

I think that in HM arc, she became a bit more confident in her powers and in herself. Her character is growing a bit, but we have to remember that just b/c we have been reading/watching for the show for years, in their timeline, not a lot of time has happened in which she would have this great character growth.

I think Kubo will make her a great character soon, and with the HM arc she will learn to trust her friends and maybe, just maybe she will learn that her crying is so damn annoying and she will get over it.

Side Note to Rain: :hm you know what I'm talking about....:cry

[Rain]

I dont think this thread will get closed, its being suprisingly civil:lmao

but maybe we should get back on topic just to make sure it doesn't get closed:D

I dont think orihimes fate involves her dying at all, nor do i think she'll lose her powers

[Miyona]

she goes into the overrated, "damsel-in-distress, can't fight for crap stereotype" and the "Ichigo coming as the knight in shining armor" is getting old. But, you never know, Bleach isnt done yet. Orihime could pull a fast one on all of us and does something really drastic like destroy the orb (don't know the proper spelling in Japanese) and fight the Espada (getting way over my head, now).

Rukia was the same way during the SS arc...

she was the damsel in distress...and she had no powers in the whole arc.

People want her to be bubbly like she was in the past, but how can she be like that in HM? Her friends were dying for all she knew...she had no reason to be happy really...

[LUV]

Rukia was the same way during the SS arc...

she was the damsel in distress...and she had no powers in the whole arc.

People want her to be bubbly like she was in the past, but how can she be like that in HM? Her friends were dying for all she knew...she had no reason to be happy really...

Actually, yes, during the SS arc Rukia was in trouble and Ichigo had to go save her, but keep in mind that Rukia didn't really have a choice. Byakuya came for her, and he easily defeated Ichigo, so in order to protect him, she went off with her brother. Regardless, during the whole SS arc, I don't think I ever saw her cry, and she even got mad b/c Ichigo and company had gone to save her.

With Orihime its different. Yeah, she went to Hueco Mundo to supposedly protect her friends, but really, she should have had faith in the fact that her friends could have probably taken care of themselves, without the need of her sacrificing her freedom like that. She obviously knew that they would go find her, so really, she just put them in more danger to begin with.

I think that the whole damsel thing don't fit Rukia, simply because Rukia came to terms with the fact that she had committed a crime and she needed to be punished for it. Even so, Ichigo still saved her from her doom, but she was never expecting him to do it. She wanted him to stay out of it, but we all know how nosy Ichigo is.

[Rain]

If its possible can we avoid comparing orihime to Rukia too much, it isn't really the point of this topic and its caused problems in other threads before



granted the SS and HM arcs are both rescue arcs, i agree with LUV, they aren't in the exact same situation

they aren't the same person, nor are they in the same situation, so comparing them isn't really necesary

but i also dont really think of orihime as a damsel in distress either

She had her plan going just fine, and although she did/does want to be saved and out of HM, she hasn't exactly just curled up into a worthless ball without them

her fate isn't dependent upon what her friends do, she is her own person, and at least she realized that and is now in control of her own destiny

[aquavit]

I wonder whether Orihime really had a choice in going to Hueco Mundo. Yes, Ulquiorra said the lives of her friends were at stake but he also said it wasn't a negotiation. If she said "I refuse to go, why don't you go ahead and try killing my friends, I am calling your bluff," do you think Ulquiorra wouldn't take her anyways? Aizen directed Ulquiorra to kidnap her. Ulquiorra offered her the "choice" of going freely because it benefitted Aizen to have Orihime be a cooperative prisoner and to appear to be a traitor to throw Soul Society into a tizzy. Aizen thought Soul Society would withdraw its forces from Karakura Town (the Hitsugaya team) and buttressed Soul Society defenses once Orihime fell into his hands.

I think both Rukia and Orihime are damsels in distress in their respective arcs simply because they were the focus of the rescue efforts. If Ichigo had not gone to Soul Society with Ishida, Chad and Orihime to rescue Rukia, she would have been executed. Sure Rukia thought she accepted her execution because she committed a crime. But, Orihime also accepted that she would never see her friends again. Her confession scene in Chapter 237 was her good bye to being in the real world.

Should Orihime have had more faith in her friends, knowing they would rescue her? I don't think Orihime knew that Ichigo, Chad, Ishida, Rukia and Renji could go Hueco Mundo. Like Rukia, Orihime was happy when her friends came to rescue her but before they came, she accepted her status as a prisoner. Remember, the Soul Society captains were unable to follow Aizen, Tousen and Gin once the grande memos pulled them into Heuco Mundo. (Makes you wonder why Soul Society didn't invade Hueco Mundo right away before Aizen made the arrancars. :D) The way the Winter War was discussed, it seemed that the fights would take place in Kakura Town or Soul Society. While I was not surprised that Urahara knew a way to get people into Hueco Mundo, I don't think there was any indication prior to chapter 238 that humans and shinigami could go to Hueco Mundo unless the hollows assisted.

I agree with Shdo there are many ways to fight as Hachi told Orihime. Her healing powers are phenomal and should be considered in an analysis of her powers. Without Orihime's healing, Ichigo wouldn't have been able to defeat Grimmjow after Ulquiorra trashed Ichigo. She bought Ichigo back from the brink of death.

As for the actual debate topic, whether she belongs in Hueco Mundo, I hope not. She belongs with her friends in Karakura Town.

[Shdo]

she did planned to delete the orb, that action have only one result which is death. she agreed to enslave herself for her friends and was reeady to die to stop Aizen. you cant disregard this as a damsel in distress, she really was ready to sacrify her life to stop Aizen plan. when ichigo group decide to go for the HM mission they do that with the idea of coming back alive while she do what she does knowing she wont make it, yet she does it willingly for the sake of her friends. far from damsel in distress.

[aquavit]

she did planned to delete the orb, that action have only one result which is death. she agreed to enslave herself for her friends and was reeady to die to stop Aizen. you cant disregard this as a damsel in distress, she really was ready to sacrify her life to stop Aizen plan. when ichigo group decide to go for the HM mission they do that with the idea of coming back alive while she do what she does knowing she wont make it, yet she does it willingly for the sake of her friends. far from damsel in distress.

I agree. I use the term damsel in distress loosely only to mean that she is the focus of the rescue efforts in the Hueco Mundo arc. When Orihime left with Ulquiorra to go to Heuco Mundo, she did not leave thinking she would be rescued since as far as she knew, there was no way Ichigo and the rest of her friends could enter Hueco Mundo.

[07Janina07]

WOW, this tread sound like that other one "Inoue Orihime's use."

Orihime will be rescue.

Now that, that is out of the way I can go ahead and say that for most of this Arc I have sense Orihime under Aizen's mind control. He trap her like he trap Hinamori and countless others. I don't blame her for having subcumbed to the mind game, no one has been able to escape Aizen. But then again if everybody could escape Aizen then he wouldn't be the ultimate evil.

In the last Arc Orihime has felt worthless and useless to proctect her friends or use her powers effectively. I would compare the Soul Society Arc to the Hueco Mundo Arc since it is obvious that Kubo wanted to parallel but I won't because it can turn in to a sore subject. Though I am disapointed in seeing that Orihime in the end wasn't rescue and the closest thing to a rescued that she has had in the Hueco Mundo arc has been Grimjaw. In my mind he has become Orihime's saviour from Loly and Menoli and her prison in that tower (I am not sure if it is a tower)

I am anxious to see how she will fare in the next Arc, I want her to be rescue allready because it is torture for her to be a prisioner and bait as Aizen has said she is. I want to see her prove herself and move beyond the box that all her friends seem to have place her in. The "Fragile, must protect," box, it is horrible to her and insulting to her powers. I am sure though that Kubo will "redeem" Orihime and make her the strong character that we all know she is.

[MOF^^]

Rukia was the same way during the SS arc...

she was the damsel in distress...and she had no powers in the whole arc.

People want her to be bubbly like she was in the past, but how can she be like that in HM? Her friends were dying for all she knew...she had no reason to be happy really...

Rukia was completely different in every possible arc or situation,they are two opposites who acts differently.
Orihime didn't have choice,but Rukia didn't either.None of them did and I can't compare them because it's just stupid,knowing how they both was in a terrible situation.

First of all,Rukia had never been damsel in distress and she will never be.I have no idea why are you talking about her,the topic is about Orihime but I guess it can't be helped.Using Rukia against Orihime arguments is not the right way to do it,but let's talk about Rukia in Soul Society then.

I hate people telling me Orihime's situation is worse since it isn't.At least Orihime didn't feel that guilty,we can tell this unlike Rukia who blamed herself all the time.How do you expect Rukia to be when her own brother wanted to kill her?She didn't even have somebody to talk to,she never spoke to anybody in the whole time she was in the tower and she didn't stop thinking how everything is her fault.
Rukia didn't want to be saved.Orihime just didn't want her friends hurt.Which IS different.Because if Orihime ws about to die(there was no signs she will in HM) we can't know how would she react.Not to mention how selfish Hime was.All this "Thanks for saving me Kurosaki-kun" pissed me off.Didn't the rest of her friends go?

Exactly the fact Rukia had no powers made her so helpless.And still,mentally she WAS strong,she didn't break down,her character stayed strong.Unlike Orihime whose character was so strange,first she slaps Ulqiorra,then she let herself be beaten by these girls whose names I don't remember.Her characters is changing every chapter which annoys me to death.If Rukia had powers,believe me while Ichigo was fighting for her she wouldn't just watch.And Orihime did,the lack of resolve and the fact she wants to be strong and a good fighter should make her fight beside Ichigo but she didn't.She is not fine being protected,she wants to help and to be useful but she waits for people to do things instead of her and Rukia never does.

But I still agree it's stupid to compare them,they are very different,the situations are too

[tari101190]

i think (hope) inoue gets killed later on. perhaps after she's rescued or during. if it'd after,theni hope it's cos she sacrifices herself though.

she's like the most important chraracter who influences everyone now. nobody else is worthy enough to die like that. it would be a good thing btw...

if a captain died, it wouldn't much of a big deal costhey're not realy important to the story. they're practicaly filler in a sense.

inoue is the center if everthng now and the god guys are mainly fighting for her. if she were to die, then it would give the manga more depth and...stuff. and it won't seem 1 dimensional. alot of good guys don't need to die like in naruto, naruto different cos all the ppl they kiil have an degree of importance for someone.

and if inoe died, then se would be like some kinda 'god' type person that they'll never 4get and fightinher name and stuff. which wouldmake her even more of a major character. keeping her alive would seem too simple and 1 dimensional to me. always savingthe damsel in distress with no consequences *yawn*. killin her will boost both hers and the story's staus.

afater bleach ends it could show a timekip in the future by like 10 years + and could show how everyone has progressed, showing they still think of inoue. that would be prretty cool as an ending.

erm...i understand the manga is about ghosts, so her dying would mean she's just a ghost. but what mean t was that she died in a way so that her spirit is destroyed aswell. killing her only to say she becomes a ghost would be pretty stupid. it would be like she never died at all, making it pointless.

[Ninira]

I really don't think KT would kill Orihime, if only because he hasn't even killed off a minor good guy, unless they died in the past and had a profound effect on another character (Kaien, Masaki, Sora, Ishida's Grandpa, etc.) So, likely, she will be rescued, she will have realized how much she means to the rest of the group, and she'll go on with her life/next plotline.

ETA: I don't think that Orihime should die or lose her resurrection ability. After all, it's possible that other characters (UNOHANA~) have the ability to resurrect others as well. After all, I don't think Nnoitra just left Chad half-dead when he attacked him...

[Shdo]

actually he did left chad half dead, saying that finishing a weakling wont prove he is the strongest. unohana cannot res.

[Miyona]

First of all,Rukia had never been damsel in distress and she will never be.I have no idea why are you talking about her,the topic is about Orihime but I guess it can't be helped.Using Rukia against Orihime arguments is not the right way to do it,but let's talk about Rukia in Soul Society then.

Rukia is the easiest person to compare to Inoue, cause most of the people who dont like Inoue like Rukia...since they are almost opposites...


I hate people telling me Orihime's situation is worse since it isn't.At least Orihime didn't feel that guilty,we can tell this unlike Rukia who blamed herself all the time.How do you expect Rukia to be when her own brother wanted to kill her?She didn't even have somebody to talk to,she never spoke to anybody in the whole time she was in the tower and she didn't stop thinking how everything is her fault.

I never said Inoue situation was worse...Rukia was gonna die in a few days. Inoue wasnt in any danger in dying. Rukia's situation was actually worse...

So...wouldnt Rukia be more of a damsel in distress? She was in more danger, wasnt she?

All this "Thanks for saving me Kurosaki-kun" pissed me off.Didn't the rest of her friends go?

Ichigo was the one who saved her >_> she was thinking the person who was right in her face. Im sure she will thank the others when she meets them...

And still,mentally she WAS strong,she didn't break down,her character stayed strong.Unlike Orihime whose character was so strange,first she slaps Ulqiorra,then she let herself be beaten by these girls whose names I don't remember.

Not getting angry at those girls for hitting her, and then healing him shows more mental toughness then other people can do >_>

Ulqy himself called Inoue a strong woman.

Anyone who says she isnt strong mentally isnt really paying attentsion...

[aquavit]

I hate people telling me Orihime's situation is worse since it isn't.At least Orihime didn't feel that guilty,we can tell this unlike Rukia who blamed herself all the time.How do you expect Rukia to be when her own brother wanted to kill her?She didn't even have somebody to talk to,she never spoke to anybody in the whole time she was in the tower and she didn't stop thinking how everything is her fault.
Rukia didn't want to be saved.Orihime just didn't want her friends hurt.Which IS different.Because if Orihime ws about to die(there was no signs she will in HM) we can't know how would she react.Not to mention how selfish Hime was.All this "Thanks for saving me Kurosaki-kun" pissed me off.Didn't the rest of her friends go?


I agree with you Rukia and Orihime's situation were different and can't be compared but since you compared Orihime unfavorably to Rukia, I thought I would share my thoughts on Orihime's situation in Hueco Mundo.

I agree Rukia didn't want Ichigo or anyone else to save her because she didn't want them to die, knowing the strength of the SS captains, and she thought she deserved to die. She carried the guilt of Kaien's death and she knew that giving Ichigo her powers was against Soul Society laws. However, Rukia was grateful when Ichigo and company successfully rescued her. Since I am human, I can only say that humans are wired to survive. I assume that is the same for shinigami.

In Orihime's situation, she had not done anything wrong but was given a "choice" to go peacefully or her friends would be hurt. Orihime did not expect her friends to come rescue her but a part of her was happy when they did come because it meant she was important to them. I don't see Orihime just being grateful to Ichigo. She slapped Ulquiorra because he disparaged her friends. She was devastated when Chad and Rukia went down and pounded out the door trying to get out to save Rukia. Of course, she thanked Ichigo personally. He was the only rescuer that met up with Orihime, courtesy of Grimmjow.


Exactly the fact Rukia had no powers made her so helpless.And still,mentally she WAS strong,she didn't break down,her character stayed strong.Unlike Orihime whose character was so strange,first she slaps Ulqiorra,then she let herself be beaten by these girls whose names I don't remember.Her characters is changing every chapter which annoys me to death.If Rukia had powers,believe me while Ichigo was fighting for her she wouldn't just watch.And Orihime did,the lack of resolve and the fact she wants to be strong and a good fighter should make her fight beside Ichigo but she didn't.She is not fine being protected,she wants to help and to be useful but she waits for people to do things instead of her and Rukia never does.


We have different ideas of mental strength. By saying that Rukia was strong, you imply that Orihime is mentally weak. You're perplexed by how she had the nerve to slap Ulquiorra yet did not fight back when the Menoly and Loly. Orihime slapped Ulquiorra because she was angry with Ulquiorra for saying her friends were foolish and deserved to die; she was defending their names.

Orihime did nothing against Menoly and Loly because she had just sense Chad, Rukia and Ichigo go down and she didn't care if she lived or die. She probably felt guilty that they had come to Hueco Mundo and gotten hurt, maybe even died, trying to rescue her. Moreover, while Menoly and Loly are certainly weak compared to Grimmjow, I am not sure she would been able to defeat the two arrancar girls had she wanted to fight back. Certainly, she would have been able to take them out with her martial arts. I thought Orihime was mentally strong in Chapter 272. She took the girls' beatings without crying and her compassion and powers made Loly call her a monster. Loly certainly was in awe of Orihime's powers but I think she call her a monster because she could not understand why Orihime would heal them after they had beaten her up.

Another criticism you raise is that Orihime should have fought along aside Ichigo. You suggest that had Rukia been there, she would have fought with Ichigo against Grimmjow and Nnoitra. The last time Rukia and Ichigo fought against Grimmjow, Rukia got impaled by Grimmjow. I don't think Rukia could have helped Ichigo in his fights against Grimmjow and Nnoitra and she's a trained fighter. She's been a shinigami for 40 years plus years. I am not sure what Orihime could have done when Ichigo was fighting Grimmjow and Nnoitra. Tsubaki was crushed by Yammi, who is the tenth Espada. I assume she got more powerful offensively when she trained in Soul Society but it's unrealistic to expect Orihime to take fight Grimmjow and Nnoitra when Ichigo could barely defeat Grimmjow and he got stomped by Nnoitra. What Orihime does do and does very well is heal Ichigo. Her remarkable abilities allow Ichigo to be completely at full strength. Had Grimmjow not taken Orihime to where Ichigo was, Ichigo would have died after his fight with Ulquiorra.

[Ninira]

actually he did left chad half dead, saying that finishing a weakling wont prove he is the strongest. unohana cannot res.

I have a terrible memory. :rawr But either way, I'm convinced that her bankai can revive people.

[MOF^^]

Yay,thanks for appearing aquavit,finally someone that argues with long posts and normal facts :lmao

I'm just in the mood of debating ^_^


I agree Rukia didn't want Ichigo or anyone else to save her because she didn't want them to die, knowing the strength of the SS captains, and she thought she deserved to die. She carried the guilt of Kaien's death and she knew that giving Ichigo her powers was against Soul Society laws. However, Rukia was grateful when Ichigo and company successfully rescued her. Since I am human, I can only say that humans are wired to survive. I assume that is the same for shinigami.

In Orihime's situation, she had not done anything wrong but was given a "choice" to go peacefully or her friends would be hurt. Orihime did not expect her friends to come rescue her but a part of her was happy when they did come because it meant she was important to them. I don't see Orihime just being grateful to Ichigo. She slapped Ulquiorra because he disparaged her friends. She was devastated when Chad and Rukia went down and pounded out the door trying to get out to save Rukia. Of course, she thanked Ichigo personally. He was the only rescuer that met up with Orihime, courtesy of Grimmjow.


By saying "Orihime had not done anything wrong" do you mean Rukia has done?Because I have never said anyone of them has done something wrong which they shouldn't have.
She really was devastated.But it doesn't change the fact she didn't say thank you to Rukia or Chad back then.It was very selfish to be grateful only to one person,she didn't even mention Renji or Ishida in the whole arc.Who were terribly hurt there but she was completely focused on Ichigo and we can't deny that.And she was even before going to there.Choosing to say goodbye to him was one of her biggest "mistakes".It's not a mistake itself but Tatsuki supported her so much time,she did things nobody has done for Orihime especially Ichigo.And Ishida risked his life thousand of time in the Soul Society arc,he saved her ass from so many enemies and she hasn't paid attention in him like in..err...100 chapters.I know what love is and I know it's not a pairing debate thread,so I'm sorry,I'll drop that..
And Rukia didn't expect her friends to go as well.Also,I can't agree she wanted to die,she has never mentioned that,she said "I am not worth spilling blood" but that doesn't mean she wants to die or that she thinks she deserves it.
Rukia still showed more mental strenght.
Orihime had choice,to be a fighter or not and she choosed to be when Yoruichi asked her,so she has no excuse not to fight by the way and I find stupid all that "Orihime is not suited for a figther,she is too nice".She has inner resolve,but she doesn't do anything about it the whole arc.She could have developement at least after she met Ichigo and she could have at least fight but she didn't,she waited for people to do everything instead of her and that's why I believe Rukia is stronger.The difference is she had no power like Kido and she didn't have a Zanpaktou,while Hime had everything and still stayed behind Ichigo.

Of course, she thanked Ichigo personally. He was the only rescuer that met up with Orihime, courtesy of Grimmjow.
I'm talking about one panel where he wasn't there and where she was alone but I don't remember the chapter,I'm bad at these things.

Another criticism you raise is that Orihime should have fought along aside Ichigo. You suggest that had Rukia been there, she would have fought with Ichigo against Grimmjow and Nnoitra. The last time Rukia and Ichigo fought against Grimmjow, Rukia got impaled by Grimmjow. I don't think Rukia could have helped Ichigo in his fights against Grimmjow and Nnoitra and she's a trained fighter. She's been a shinigami for 40 years plus years. I am not sure what Orihime could have done when Ichigo was fighting Grimmjow and Nnoitra. Tsubaki was crushed by Yammi, who is the tenth Espada. I assume she got more powerful offensively when she trained in Soul Society but it's unrealistic to expect Orihime to take fight Grimmjow and Nnoitra when Ichigo could barely defeat Grimmjow and he got stomped by Nnoitra. What Orihime does do and does very well is heal Ichigo. Her remarkable abilities allow Ichigo to be completely at full strength. Had Grimmjow not taken Orihime to where Ichigo was, Ichigo would have died after his fight with Ulquiorra.

So what if she did?Rukia got stronger after that,not to mention she is the first one to beat an Espada and Orihime couldn't have lift a finger on Aaaroniero.
I wasn't talking especially about this fight but where Renji took Rukia away from Ichigo after he started the fight with Byakuya Rukia was all like "I wanna go back and help Ichigo".I can't see Orihime doing that in million years,seriously,when Ichigo fight with Yammy and when he told her to step back she did without hestitation and even if she felt like a burden she didn't do anything and just watched.And even behind,she got hurt.Do you remember her in Soul Society when Ishida told her to step back? "No,I want to fight".I can't see Orihime doing that right now.
And about the strenght of Nnnoitora and Grimmjow-well,that's exactly the worst thing to think about.All these thoughts " I'm too weak to fight them because they are so freaking strong" are not very good or useful.If every time Orihime sees enemy thinks the enemy is too strong,where could that led her?Nowhere.

[Ninira]

Choosing to say goodbye to him was one of her biggest "mistakes".It's not a mistake itself but Tatsuki supported her so much time,she did things nobody has done for Orihime especially Ichigo

Well, we already know that Orihime is grateful to Tatsuki, since she had a long speech about it in the earlier chapters where she defeated the hollow that attacked her friends. KT might have chosen not to have her repeat it because we (as readers) should already know that she cares for Tatsuki and he may have felt that he didn't need to say it again. Readers don't know exactly how she feels about Ichigo, who she has a crush on, so he created a chapter where she confesses her affection to him.

And Ishida risked his life thousand of time in the Soul Society arc,he saved her ass from so many enemies and she hasn't paid attention in him like in..err...100 chapters.I know what love is and I know it's not a pairing debate thread,so I'm sorry,I'll drop that..

I think Ishida has really gotten the short end of the stick in HM. When Mayuri shows up, it's just comic relief between the two, no tension about the Quincies or anything. To sum up what I'm saying, it feels like he's being ignored in general in this arc.

By saying "Orihime had not done anything wrong" do you mean Rukia has done?/QUOTE]

Orihime hasn't really done anything that made her feel extremely guilty. (Except maybe feeling jealous of Rukia.) Like aquavit said, Rukia killed Kaien and gave Ichigo her shinigami powers, and while it was justified, it also made her more reserved about going back to SS for punishment.

[QUOTE]She could have developement at least after she met Ichigo and she could have at least fight but she didn't,she waited for people to do everything instead of her and that's why I believe Rukia is stronger.

The last time she fought an espada, it obliterated her only weapon. But when she had to defend people, she did. (During the Nnoitra fight.) So while she didn't fight directly, she did help out at least.

I can't see Orihime doing that in million years,seriously,when Ichigo fight with Yammy and when he told her to step back she did without hestitation and even if she felt like a burden she didn't do anything and just watched.

Wasn't that after Tsubaki was obliterated and her shield was broken? If it's just been proven that anything she tries to throw at Yammi just gets destroyed with no effort, why SHOULDN'T she feel like a burden? She wants to help, but trying to fight back just gets her only weapon annihilated. Basically, the only thing she probably feels she CAN rely on is her healing abilities, so she uses them.

[MOF^^]

Well, we already know that Orihime is grateful to Tatsuki, since she had a long speech about it in the earlier chapters where she defeated the hollow that attacked her friends. KT might have chosen not to have her repeat it because we (as readers) should already know that she cares for Tatsuki and he may have felt that he didn't need to say it again. Readers don't know exactly how she feels about Ichigo, who she has a crush on, so he created a chapter where she confesses her affection to him.

That wasn't just a chapter where Orihime has to show affection to somebody,it was the chapter where she was leaving.It's not like she would get another chance to talk to somebody else except Ichigo and I don't think he is the one who deserves it.It's obvious Orihime loves Ichigo and I would have known it very well with or without the chapter.She was supposed say goodbye to the most important person for her.It's selfish to say it's Ichigo.Because her crush is nothing comparing to the friendship she has with Tatsuki,it's not like she is close to Ichigo,she barely knows him.

I think Ishida has really gotten the short end of the stick in HM. When Mayuri shows up, it's just comic relief between the two, no tension about the Quincies or anything. To sum up what I'm saying, it feels like he's being ignored in general in this arc.

Is that an excuse for Orihime to forget him?

Wasn't that after Tsubaki was obliterated and her shield was broken? If it's just been proven that anything she tries to throw at Yammi just gets destroyed with no effort, why SHOULDN'T she feel like a burden? She wants to help, but trying to fight back just gets her only weapon annihilated. Basically, the only thing she probably feels she CAN rely on is her healing abilities, so she uses them.

Orihime DOESN'T want to rely only on healing,she doesn't wanna be a burden and she is not fine being protected at all.Trying to fight back can't always be succesful but is that a reason to give up on fighting at all? And I know she didn't have any way to fight where Ichigo appeared what I'm talking about is that she felt guilty for depending on him but still did nothing after that

[LUV]

Meh, whether we like it or not, Orihime is not a fully developed character yet. Kubo has yet to show us what she is really made of, and I'm sure he will before Bleach is done with. I mean, the girl has so much potential, and even Aizen saw that, but she has no resolve, so no matter how much power you may have, without resolve its kinda useless.

She has the ability to heal and reject, thats some cool stuff, and Kubo gave those to her so that the power wouldn't be abused. I think thats the only reason, other characters who are more aggressive would go left and right rejecting and healing whatever crosses their path, but not Orihime, she doesn't think like that.

I agree with MOF about her being selfish, that was real messed up what she did, go say goodbye to Ichigo instead of Tatsu. Sure you love the guy, but come on, you have no idea if he loves you back or not, so why not go say goodbye to a person you know cares for you for sure. Meh, I guess love is blind.

[debbiechan]

originally posted by aquavit:
Of course, she thanked Ichigo personally. He was the only rescuer that met up with Orihime, courtesy of Grimmjow.




I'm talking about one panel where he wasn't there and where she was alone but I don't remember the chapter,I'm bad at these things.



You mean chapter 249. It opens with the determination of the five rescuers to get to Orihime.

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000249/01.jpg

It is after Ulquiorra has informed Orihime that her friends, in the plural, have come for her that she thanks only Kurosaki-kun:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/249/17/

I remember going "ouch" at that scene, particularly since I've always faulted Orihime for having an obsession (I did not see an admirable mature romance) with Ichigo starting with her bedside farewell. But this is going into the topic of Orihime's character--which invariably gets a topic closed, even though it's one I find infinitely fascinating. Seems you can't talk about it without the extremists messying up the discourse.

As for the topic of this thread, given what Kubo has shown us so far as to how he treats secondary and tertiary characters, let alone primary ones like Orihime, I'd bet the house that Orihime isn't going to die. Or that if she does make a sacrifice, it will be temporary, a plot tease, and she'll be all fine and dandy and her smiling self by the end of the manga. Orihime was largely a comedic character in the early Karakura arc. Kubo's developed her beautifully but it's a law of shounen that you don't kill the funny people. That's unspeakably cruel.

That said, Kubo's been hard on Orihime. So much of the HM arc has been hard to watch--her physical, verbal and even near-sexual abuse (yeah, I'm looking at your finger in her mouth there, Nnoi and your breathing on her face, Aizen) has been awful. You don't hit a character this hard without her rising above her adversity in some way by the end of the story.

The only thing I'm sure of is that Tsubaki isn't a purposeless character--he's one sixth of who Orihime is (the rest is healing and protecting but 1/6 is aggressive attack) and she's shot him well once then mis-aimed him twice and shounen law dictates that she use her innate spiritual talent PROPERLY the next time she uses him. So, regardless of whatever character development there is for Hime (and there will be), she's going to shoot Tsubaki again and this time she won't miss.

[MOF^^]

Wonderful post as always Debbiechan too bad it doesn't let me give you a rep :rolleyes:
chapter 249 totally showd me Orihime's "love" is a pure obssesion but it's not a pairing debate
The only thing I'm sure of is that Tsubaki isn't a purposeless character--he's one sixth of who Orihime is (the rest is healing and protecting but 1/6 is aggressive attack) and she's shot him well once then mis-aimed him twice and shounen law dictates that she use her innate spiritual talent PROPERLY the next time she uses him. So, regardless of whatever character development there is for Hime (and there will be), she's going to shoot Tsubaki again and this time she won't miss.

There aren't any purposeless characters in the Bleahc universe,they all have great impact on the story,some bigger,some not,but I do love them all and find them important and that includes Tsubaki =)

[Rain]

debbiechan- I agree with you about Orihimes fate

I dont see her dying at all. I do see her making a major sacrifice (or at least be willing to make a major sacrifice), without the fear of death. And it may not be fully on-topic, but i see this action as changing how she is seen by her friends (or more accurately, how she thinks they see her)

MOF- thank god this isn't a pairing debate, this thread is already intense enough :XD

[aquavit]

Yay,thanks for appearing aquavit,finally someone that argues with long posts and normal facts :lmao

I'm just in the mood of debating ^_^

By saying "Orihime had not done anything wrong" do you mean Rukia has To me, the significance of the sentence is that
done?Because I have never said anyone of them has done something wrong which they shouldn't have.
To me, the significance of the sentence is that
She really was devastated.But it doesn't change the fact she didn't say thank you to Rukia or Chad back then.It was very selfish to be grateful only to one person,she didn't even mention Renji or Ishida in the whole arc.Who were terribly hurt there but she was completely focused on Ichigo and we can't deny that.And she was even before going to there.



Well, I actually don't like to make long posts but sometime it can't be helped. I also don't like to debate but since you were kind enough to respond to my post I thought I should reciprocate.

When I wrote that Orihime had not done anything wrong, I was simply agreeing with your comment that Rukia didn't want to be saved because she did break a Soul Society law. Do I think execution is an extreme punishment for what Rukia did? Sure, but Soul Society also locks people up because they have the potential of being dangerous so their laws are strict and Rukia knew she committed a crime.

Thanks to debbiechan for posting that page where she thanked Ichigo in her mind for coming and decided she would stay to destroy the hougyoku. I stand corrected. Orihime never thanked Ichigo in person when they were together. Ichigo fought Grimmjow and Nnoitra, Nel and Kenpachi also fought Nnoitra and Orihime got kidnapped again, this time by Stark.

To me, the importance of that sentence is Orihime's plan to destroy the hougyoku, not her thanking Kurosaki-kun for coming. Just because Orihime thought of Ichigo in that one panel doesn't mean she was not grateful that her other friends came. I am sure she will thank them when she sees them. Kubo likes to spend many panels on the fights but he's not going to spend a ton of panel on the inner thoughts of the characters unless it advances his plot so I am not surprised we don't see Orihime's thoughts on her friends. I think the HM arc has been more fights than anything else.


Choosing to say goodbye to him was one of her biggest "mistakes".It's not a mistake itself but Tatsuki supported her so much time,she did things nobody has done for Orihime especially Ichigo.And Ishida risked his life thousand of time in the Soul Society arc,he saved her ass from so many enemies and she hasn't paid attention in him like in..err...100 chapters.I know what love is and I know it's not a pairing debate thread,so I'm sorry,I'll drop that..


Ah, the lovely and touching confession scene. At the start of her goodbye scene, she lists all the friends that she wanted to say goodbye to-- Tatsuki, Chad, Ishida and Rukia. Why did she chose Ichigo over Tatsuki and Ishida? Tatsuki is already her best friend and Orihime left with no regrets about their relationship. As for Ishida, they did grow close in the Soul Society arc and we can assume they are good friends afterwards since Chad, Orihime, Ishida and Ichigo all hang out together. Orihime has no reason to regret her friendship with Ishida since she saw him as a friend like Chad. With Ichigo, Orihime obviously wanted more than friendship because she's in love. Her fivetimes, one love confession and goodbye was for herself. She need to acknowledge her love so she could leave with no regrets because she got a chance to say what was in her heart.


And Rukia didn't expect her friends to go as well.Also,I can't agree she wanted to die,she has never mentioned that,she said "I am not worth spilling blood" but that doesn't mean she wants to die or that she thinks she deserves it.



I don't have time to look for the chapter where Gin taunted Rukia by asking her if she wants to be saved. Rukia was dismayed by the hope she felt because she thought she was mentally prepared to die. Ichigo gave her hope to live when she learned he came.


Rukia still showed more mental strenght.
Orihime had choice,to be a fighter or not and she choosed to be when Yoruichi asked her,so she has no excuse not to fight by the way and I find stupid all that "Orihime is not suited for a figther,she is too nice".She has inner resolve,but she doesn't do anything about it the whole arc.She could have developement at least after she met Ichigo and she could have at least fight but she didn't,she waited for people to do everything instead of her and that's why I believe Rukia is stronger.The difference is she had no power like Kido and she didn't have a Zanpaktou,while Hime had everything and still stayed behind Ichigo.



I don't question Rukia's mental strength. What I question is the assertion that Orihime is mentally weak. Mental strength does not come from having fighting abilities. Orihime is mentally strong because she has the resilience to be a cheerful and friendly person even after Sora died and she is handling the traumas of Hueco Mundo quite well.

Orihime told Yourichi, Rukia and Hachi that she wants to fight. And I am convinced that Orihime will fight. As Hachi hinted, the "how" is important. I don't think Orihime know kido but perhaps we will see her use her barrier to trap like she did with Ichigo.

Why have we not seen Orihime fight since the SS arc? I think it's the same answer as why Unohana has not fought. Orihime's fight might not be a physical fight, but nonetheless her actions might change the tide of battle.

You state "she waited for people to do everything" but what exactly could she do against Grimmjow and Nnoitra or even Tesla for that matter? Again, had Rukia been there, I think she would have been injured or killed by Grimmjow and Nnoitra.

I don't really understand your last sentence that I quoted. Orihime doesn't know kidou as far as we can tell and she certainly doesn't have zanpaktou.



So what if she did?Rukia got stronger after that,not to mention she is the first one to beat an Espada and Orihime couldn't have lift a finger on Aaaroniero.
I wasn't talking especially about this fight but where Renji took Rukia away from Ichigo after he started the fight with Byakuya Rukia was all like "I wanna go back and help Ichigo".I can't see Orihime doing that in million years,seriously,when Ichigo fight with Yammy and when he told her to step back she did without hestitation and even if she felt like a burden she didn't do anything and just watched.And even behind,she got hurt.Do you remember her in Soul Society when Ishida told her to step back? "No,I want to fight".I can't see Orihime doing that right now.



Rukia had a third dance that allowed her to reform her zanpaktou and Aaroneiero's particular weakness was his tubed face. Had Aaornirero taken Rukia more seriously, he would have killed Rukia. I have no problems with how Rukia won because she fought well but it doesn't mean she's more powerful than Yammi for instance.

In general, I think it's very difficult to compare Rukia and Orihime when it comes to fighting because their powers are very different and Orihime is not a trained fighter.

Rukia did tell Renji that she wanted to stay to help Ichigo in part because she didn't think Ichigo could handle the Soul Society vice captains and captains. Renji's response was to ask Rukia to trust Ichigo and to let them both carry her burden. And Orihime did want to stay to help Ishida but Ishida thought she wasn't meant to be fighting and made Maki Maki take her far away.

In the Yammi fight, both Chad and Ichigo told her to step back. Chad explained that only she could heal people so she carried Tatsuki away while Chad fought Yammi. Ichigo didn't want her to get hurt during the fight so he told her to step back. She saw how Chad was beaten by Yammi but she still went ahead and was going to attach Yammi but Ichigo showed up. And when Ichigo hesitated because he felt his hollow trying to come out, Orihime did fight with some dire consequences.



And about the strenght of Nnnoitora and Grimmjow-well,that's exactly the worst thing to think about.All these thoughts " I'm too weak to fight them because they are so freaking strong" are not very good or useful.If every time Orihime sees enemy thinks the enemy is too strong,where could that led her?Nowhere.

Knowing your enemy's strength is a part of being battle smart. That's why armies retreat and come back to fight another day.

Do you think Ichigo would have let Orihime fight Grimmjow and Nnoitra after what he saw Grimmjow do to Rukia, an experienced fighter? I think Orihime would have gotten in Ichigo's way if she tried to interfere in the fight because Ichigo would have to be worried about her safety instead of being focused on the fights. In any case, Grimmjow and Ichigo wanted to fight one-on-one with each other. Likewise even though Nnoitra had Tesla there, Nnoitra didn't ask Tesla to help him fight Nnoitra and in fact he was pissed when Tesla stepped in during his fight with Chad.

[MOF^^]

I'm too hungry to argue :rolleyes: Don't expect a normal post
Well, I actually don't like to make long posts but sometime it can't be helped. I also don't like to debate but since you were kind enough to respond to my post I thought I should reciprocate.
I just find it fun to argue especially when people are answering me with no insults and when they don't get personally whatever I say.
When I wrote that Orihime had not done anything wrong, I was simply agreeing with your comment that Rukia didn't want to be saved because she did break a Soul Society law. Do I think execution is an extreme punishment for what Rukia did? Sure, but Soul Society also locks people up because they have the potential of being dangerous so their laws are strict and Rukia knew she committed a crime.

She knew but it's obvious how she didn't want to die,it was very hard for her to get over the thought she will die and even if she didn't cry or scream,she did feel uneasy and that''s why her resolve was broken so easily.
To me, the importance of that sentence is Orihime's plan to destroy the hougyoku, not her thanking Kurosaki-kun for coming. Just because Orihime thought of Ichigo in that one panel doesn't mean she was not grateful that her other friends came. I am sure she will thank them when she sees them. Kubo likes to spend many panels on the fights but he's not going to spend a ton of panel on the inner thoughts of the characters unless it advances his plot so I am not surprised we don't see Orihime's thoughts on her friends. I think the HM arc has been more fights than anything else.
Kubo has spend many panels on Rukia's fight.Kubo likes flashbacks.He spend chapters for Rukia's actually.Do you think half of page is too much for him to spend?Four more characters would have been added very easily.He likes spending panels on the inner thoughts of characters and that's obvious.Especially in Soul Society.He has spend many of these panels on Orihime's thoughts and emotions in Hueco Mundo and there is no excuse for not doing it now.I don't see any other reason for thanking only him except the fact she can't get over her love and even if it's not easy to accept you are not loved,you should learn to live with it.I'm not saying Ichigo doesn't love her( I don't think he does but then again I won't disscus that since it's not a thread about pairings) I'm saying she thinks he doesn't.And not getting over her love for really many chapters is one of the reasons I don't think she is really strong mentally.

Ah, the lovely and touching confession scene. At the start of her goodbye scene, she lists all the friends that she wanted to say goodbye to-- Tatsuki, Chad, Ishida and Rukia. Why did she chose Ichigo over Tatsuki and Ishida? Tatsuki is already her best friend and Orihime left with no regrets about their relationship. As for Ishida, they did grow close in the Soul Society arc and we can assume they are good friends afterwards since Chad, Orihime, Ishida and Ichigo all hang out together. Orihime has no reason to regret her friendship with Ishida since she saw him as a friend like Chad. With Ichigo, Orihime obviously wanted more than friendship because she's in love. Her fivetimes, one love confession and goodbye was for herself. She need to acknowledge her love so she could leave with no regrets because she got a chance to say what was in her heart.
Listing them is very different it doesn't excuse her at all.I can never accept what she did and most of all I can never agree she left without regrets.She feels sorry for Tatsuki because they are ignoring her.Remember when Mizuiro said Keigo is not the only ignored one and mentioned Tatsuki?Orihime had regrets about her being ignored and she wondered.She still choosed him.
To say what is it in her heart?But did ANYBODY hear her confession?Ichigo was asleep.He didn't know what was happening.Do you think telling that to nobody was a real confession?I'm not sure.Isn't it a regret not to say to the person you love what you feel(whe he is concious)?She wanted more than friendship but telling him she loves him while he is sleeping doesn't make her in serious relationships or more than friendship with him at all.
I don't question Rukia's mental strength. What I question is the assertion that Orihime is mentally weak. Mental strength does not come from having fighting abilities. Orihime is mentally strong because she has the resilience to be a cheerful and friendly person even after Sora died and she is handling the traumas of Hueco Mundo quite well.
But fighting comes from your mental strenght.When you are emotionally weak,that means ya don't have enough inner resolve and determination to do get stronger in fighting abilities.Because fighting comes from your heart.Because you don't just fight over nothing.You fight to defend pride,to protect people you love and pride and love comes from the heart.So these things are connected.
Orihime told Yourichi, Rukia and Hachi that she wants to fight. And I am convinced that Orihime will fight. As Hachi hinted, the "how" is important. I don't think Orihime know kido but perhaps we will see her use her barrier to trap like she did with Ichigo.
She had many chances until now and she still didn't.Sure,she will fight,but the chances she had proved to me her weakness.
You state "she waited for people to do everything" but what exactly could she do against Grimmjow and Nnoitra or even Tesla for that matter? Again, had Rukia been there, I think she would have been injured or killed by Grimmjow and Nnoitra.
Please,don't focus only on them.I'm talking also about the situations,the simple situations in the living world for examlpe.When Chizuru flirts with her and hugs her,she doesn't like it but she waits for Tatsuki to defend her because she is always there.In Soul Society the drunk shinigami was being perverted and she didn't say anything-Ishida did.I think that's one of her biggest flaws.

Sorry I didn't answered to everything you said.I'm not in the mood of arguing and I am really angry at someone so sorry for the lame answers =)

[Jasse]

To stay on topic for now::o

Ill say Orihime's fate, shell become a true valuable member in her team and she'll gain self-acceptance of her nature and powers.

but since this thread had some debates about her character::p

I would like to mention this:

-About Orihime being passive.
In other words, she hasn't expressed any sort of anger toward any kinda of injustice that had occurred to her so far(or rarely had done so).
Unfortunately, I have to agree. There are panels that strongly suggest this if not verbally state it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/189/06/

Chizuru: Orihime is such a pure innocent girl that even if there was something that she didn't like, she would never stand up and say so.


Also this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/119/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/119/10/

When that perverted Shinigami guy was eying Hime(with impure intentions ofcourse). Orihime stood there dumbfounded despite the fact that she knew there was something up with that Shinigami looks and stares.

Now, You might tell me, Orihime never knew she was being stared at, much less in that "way". and I'll have to say, No, she knew for sure.

In the following page she thanked ishida for blowing that perverted shinigami off and ishida said "I don't like guys like him"(so, he knew she was thanking him for doing that)

Why didn't she blow him off herself? she didn't need to wait for ishida to do that for her.

I don't think we need to even mention Chizuru sexual assaults and Tatsuki constant protection of her. I for one don't think Hime likes it and she isn't willing to defend herself if others can do so.

Yep, that needs to be addressed. I am sure at some point in the story.
She will gain whatever resolve/inner power to direct her anger towards any sort of actions/injustice that happens to her.:)because, I don't find the situation as it is at the time being right to her behalf. She isn't doing herself any justice by being silent and letting others take care of her.


- I am on those fans who don't fault hime for saying Goodbye for ichigo and not Tatsuki. Yes, if things were idealistic and went smoothly in the story. Tatsuki's would have been the "idealistic" choice. But they have grown apart ever since she returned from SS and they haven't been open with eachother ever since....so yeah,Ichigo makes sense for me(If I take Orihime POV into account here, Ichigo makes sense).


-Well the last point(well,this might really sound unfavorable to many). but I will be honest here.

hime disappointed me for not thanking the others when they came in HM.
You could say the focus was on the hougyoko. but she never mentioned it once infront of ichigo. She could have also mentioned Rukia and Chad after the defeat of GJ, but we had Ichigo saying "we have to go to Rukai and chad" which was unfortunate IMO. first because she deserves to show more concern than ichigo about them, she saw Rukia's fight in entirety and had reacted strongly to Chad's fall(both very touching scenes)..
so I expected a follow-up of those emotions.

Yes, I know, you can say things became quite chaotic in HM and hime couldn't think clearly. but oh well...she seemed much more confident and her mind firm on the hougyoko.it seems nothing she planned to do in the beginning of the arc had a follow-up/continuation which is unfortunate so far.

Saying this, I do hope she'll surprise and do something awesome in the upcoming chapters.:) I do think Kubo owes her and her fans as much.


I hope this post isn't taken in the wrong way.I am not saying hime is a horrible person(I am hard on all the characters,more so on the characters i like). Yes, she is flawed and those flaws are being addressed now and I am expecting some very good development considering all the time and effort Kubo has put up with her. So, I am pretty optimistic regarding her character in the long run or so i hope.

[Ninira]

I'm talking also about the situations,the simple situations in the living world for examlpe.When Chizuru flirts with her and hugs her,she doesn't like it but she waits for Tatsuki to defend her because she is always there.In Soul Society the drunk shinigami was being perverted and she didn't say anything-Ishida did.I think that's one of her biggest flaws.

What I have to wonder about this is how it's viewed in Japan. It takes me back to other comics where girls brought train molesters to the attention of police, only to be criticized at work for basically 'not letting guys have their fun'. Women are generally expected to be passive, not aggressive. If her passive-ness is viewed positively in Japan, there's a chance that KT won't do anything about it. But I'm not Japanese, so I'm not certain how they view her there. :p

[Jasse]

I don't know much of how passivity is viewed in Japan nor will I make any judgments on it(to avoid what might some consider a cultural sensitivity or make wrong hasty judgments).

but Look at bleach itself. Rukia kicks Kon in the balls when he make a move on her and Rangiku smacks Keigo in the head when he tries and make a pass(on his way lol:p)...o no one so far is passive to harassments so far except hime and Nemu(but the difference is large between these 2 and their situations are incomparable), I am not excusing Nemu being passive but obviously the differences are big and if it doesn't help, Nemu passivity and robot-like personality to mistreatment isn't doing her good nor she is shown in a flattering light.

So Orihime "passivity" to mistreatment is not the norm among bleach female characters.

[Ninira]

So Orihime "passivity" to mistreatment is not the norm among bleach female characters.

Most of the women in Bleach are also 'foreign', which makes it a bit more acceptable. (It's half of why I think tsundere-type characters tend to not be Japanese.) While SS may be full of people with Japanese names, it's not actually Japan, and the girls who are hit on also had to contend with growing up in a dangerous environment where they had to fight off people who tried to come on to them, whereas Orihime grew up in an environment where passivity was probably encouraged.

[Jasse]

No, I have to completely disagree.

I don't think Kubo is making any cultural statement here by making Orihime act like this. Many cultures are thrown into Bleach. German words for the Quincies, Spanish names for the hollows, an old japanese setup for the Shinigamis..Chad is mexican, a jazz theme in one of the flashback chapters. They're there to add color in the manga and make it more interesting/sophisticated/colorful.
However,It doesn't reflect/explain the way the characters behave or act within bleach in the most general terms.

Orihime's passivity wasn't encouraged per se, but yes, I would concur the sheltered environment she lived in did helpfoster it.
those who cared about her, always ensured she was wholly protected one way or another.

Why bother? if Ichigo/Tatsuki/Ishida are around, they'll make sure she's alright, she knows this. which explains why she is being passive around Chizuru(because she knows Tatsuki will take care of that) and that perverted shinigami(she knows Ishida will take care of that)...and so on.

Besides, if we take the cultural/environmental argument into the account here. Will Tatsuki/Chizuru take it on themselves to be passive when someone bothers them/harass them or cause them some injustice? I doubt so..

and they are from the same town Orihime came from. So, I don't see the cultural argument holding much water in this case.

I do think Kubo is addressing the problem and is (or so I hope) working on it now. Afterall, she is 1/6 of her is a fighter, she will express her anger at those who caused her or her friends harm in future event. She did that at one point and i can see her doing it again.

[Ninira]

No, I have to completely disagree.

I don't think Kubo is making any cultural statement here by making Orihime act like this.

I'm sorry that it seemed like I was saying that KT was making a cultural statement by making her so passive. I was trying to say that she may just be a product of an environment that can foster passivity, and I'm very sorry that it seemed like I was saying he was implying rightness or wrongness in her passivity.

What I'm trying to say, is basically what you said in your last post: she grew up in a place where it was okay for her to be passive, because she would be protected. Other girls didn't grow up in such an environment, so they are more active. There are lots of other things that factor in, like Tatsuki being as strong and protective as she is, plus her interest in martial arts. None of the other girls have been sexually harassed, so I have no idea how they would react in a similar situation.

Sorry if this post doesn't make any sense, I should probably be sleeping by now.

[debbiechan]

Hmm, really interesting side-discussion about Japanese women putting up with sexual advances.

Most of the women in Bleach are also 'foreign', which makes it a bit more acceptable. (It's half of why I think tsundere-type characters tend to not be Japanese.)

Interesting. Orihime is a Western-looking character and Rukia, if anyone, is the tsundere in Bleach.

EEk. Treaded into the dangerous comparison territory.

But the cultural views of passivity vis a vis how femininity is perceived have always fascinated me in regards to Orihime's character. I do believe, as Jasse does, that Kubo isn't showing us Orihime's passivity before sexual aggression in a POSITIVE light. Neither do I think he's showing it to as a character flaw--I believe he's presenting us a picture of what is--such as, this is Orihime.


Bleach is populated with proactive, strong women--that goes without saying. Yoruichi, Tatsuki, Rangiku, Nel--the list goes on. Orihime's fighting abilities are less focused on than her nurturing strengths but that's not to say that she doesn't need to stand up for herself. Not speaking up when someone sexually assaults you in a verbal way or puts his hand on you in a suggestive manner may be Orihime but it's also someone with a self-destructive passivity.

Orihime HERSELF doesn't want others to do the fighting for her. She's vowed so herself. In chapter 228, she says she doesn't want Kurosaki-kun to always be saving her. (eta--curiously, at this pt in the manga, Ichigo hasn't saved Orihime's life yet. Ishida has, three times, and he and Tatsuki have fended off sexual aggressors but Ichigo arrived "too late" at the Ulqui and Yammi scene. Even in the scene when Ichigo fought Orihime's brother, it was Orihime, not Ichigo, who finally disarmed Sora--and that was with kindness and understanding),


http://pics.livejournal.com/_debbiechan_/pic/0008wfbz


Insofar as how this character discussion has any relevance to "Orihime's fate" the topic of this thread, I have to wonder if the ones who aren't content with Orihime's being utterly passive and that utter passivity being a GOOD thing aren't the ones who see her sacrificing herself in the end of Bleach. I see self-sacrifice as totally being in character for Orihime but as I've said before, I fully expect a proactive charge from the 1/6th of her that is a fighter--Tsubaki. I do believe that Orihime will learn to stand up for herself. No, I don't believe she's going to turn into Tatsuki or that this is a desirable thing for her character. I believe she just has to use her innate abilities to the maximum. Right now, she's not using her Tsubaki and is letting others fight her battles for her.

[Shdo]

actually her look isnt western (orihime) since in this show, unlike others, people do have problems with unnatural hair color, both ichigo and orihime got bullied for their unjappanese hair color and i doubt they would get the same treatment if they were white (since for white people its expected that they might have hair colors beyond black and brown) since orihime was abused for her hair color i think she is japanese.
rukia on the other hand is likely a japanese but who knows?

[debbiechan]

I assumed that Orihime got bullied for being beautiful (or for her beautiful hair, as the text says) I can easily see what happened to her happening to any girl with good looks or any talent that sticks out in any culture anywhere in the world. Vicious envious girls be vicious envious girls the world over. ^^

[Shdo]

mostly for her weird heir color (much like ichigo) which was very long as if she slapped the girls with her weird hair color, instead of hiding it she showed how long it was.

[Jasse]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/42/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/42/15/

Orihime: 3rd years said they didn't like my hair color and cut it.

I am not sure how's this related though?:headscratch

[debbiechan]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/42/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/42/15/

Orihime: 3rd years said they didn't like my hair color and cut it.

I am not sure how's this related though?:headscratch

It's not, really. :) It's a fine point.
Although I've heard time and time again people say that Ichigo and Orihime were picked on for weird hair color (Orihime's is said to be brown in the early manga nevertheless Kubo starts coloring it more orangey in later volumes) but who didn't read that scene where Orihime is tormented by the girls and see it less as a case of meanies kicking the albino dog than jealous girls trying to "uglify" a beautiful girl's hair---the scene was foreshadowing of the jealous Arrancar girls who beat up Hime for getting attention from Aizen, so I don't think Ichigo's hair issues and Orihime's hair issues are comparable other than both kids are different and both kids stick out from the pack--but the same can be said of all the Bleach gang, mega-tall Chad, high-achieving crafts-wielding Ishida, etc....

Whether or not Orihime is a "Western" type character or not seems peripheral to the discussion too, since even Western-looking characters in most manga and anime are undisputably Japanese in behavior and culture--the question is what's going to become of Orihime in the end?

Does her "Westerness" have any influence there? I think not really. Her behavior, not her looks, as many a beautiful girl has discovered, is going to be what truly determines her fate.

[Shdo]

the point is that she isnt western like you claimed before, by looks or by anything else.
her behavior fit the passivness other have pointed out.

[Rain]

I also wouldn't be so quick to say orihime is a westerner or anything, but its just my opinion

As for Orihime being so passive, standing up for herself in certain situations would only cause her to be noticed more

how does the saying go the nail that sticks up the highest is the first to be hammered down

her passivity isn't based on ethnicity in any form, it is based on past experiences and her thought paterns (cognitive behavioral theopry ftw:yay)

[debbiechan]

Woah. Who said she was Western and who said her passivity was based on her WESTERN characterization?

I wrote:
Interesting. Orihime is a Western-looking character and Rukia, if anyone, is the tsundere in Bleach.

Who can dispute that Orihime is one of the more Western looking characters in the manga? Now please go back and read what Ninira said about tsundere-type characters tend to not be Japanese and put the subsequent discussion in context, please. No one is starting a race war, here.

As for Rain's assessment of Orihime's passivity being shaped by life experiences and her perceptions--right on, brother. Cognitive-behavioral therapy ftw! Yes, I agree.

But the cultural ideas of female passivity in the East can't be overlooked--it's an ongoing problem in Japan. Women won't report subway molesters and abusers because of a cultural emphasis on not telling. That culture of silence exists in other countries too but social workers within Japan are addressing it specifically when it comes to reporting sex crimes.

And yeah, I just think Jasse brought up a very good point. One day Orihime is going to have to learn to peel the lecher's hands off her body herself and not rely on Tatsuki or Ishida to do it for her.

[Rain]

Woah. Who said she was Western and who said her passivity was based on her WESTERN characterization?

sorry, i misread some of the previous posts, and made an illogical connection:oops

As for Rain's assessment of Orihime's passivity being shaped by life experiences and her perceptions--right on, brother. Cognitive-behavioral therapy ftw! Yes, I agree.

:yay

But the cultural ideas of female passivity in the East can't be overlooked--it's an ongoing problem in Japan. Women won't report subway molesters and abusers because of a cultural emphasis on not telling. That culture of silence exists in other countries too but social workers within Japan are addressing it specifically when it comes to reporting sex crimes.

This is very true, I just never equated Orihimes situation and this cultural reference

And yeah, I just think Jasse brought up a very good point. One day Orihime is going to have to learn to peel the lecher's hands off her body herself and not rely on Tatsuki or Ishida to do it for her.

This is a interesting point. Personally, i am all for Orihime standing up for herself, i would love to see it. But i dont think she necesarily relies on them.

With chizuru for example, tatsuki is always there. Tatsuki almost instaneously breaks chizuru off of Orihime, so can we really say orihime wouldn't stand up for herself, in some way at least

Orihime knows tatsuki is there, she knows tatsuki will act, so there isn't a personal need for orihime to act. Whenever she is in these situations there is always someone there to defend her, so there was no reason for her to act

And although i may be taking this a bit out of context, orihime has said she doesn't want to be a burden on her friends, and has tried to improve herself because of this.

So if orihime ever felt that she should act, she more than likely would

[debbiechan]

sorry, i misread some of the previous posts, and made an illogical connection:oops

:hug
Ah, I'm so relieved to hear you say that. I'm too used to AnimeSuki, I guess where I say blue and three people say I said purple.



And although i may be taking this a bit out of context, orihime has said she doesn't want to be a burden on her friends, and has tried to improve herself because of this.


I think this is going to play an important part in her character development. The main REASON Orihime wants to be proactive, the main reason she wants to fight is so as not to be a burden on her friends. She's thinking of others. Everyone needs a reason to fight. I don't know if this is strong enough, though. The one time we've seen Tsubaki triumph was when Orihime shot him to protect Tatsuki. I'm going to guess that it's going to be a situation where she protects someone that she shoots him successfully again.

As for peeling off lechers, it's a matter of valuing herself enough to protect herself. One of the reasons I think she let those Arrancar girls beat her up so badly is that she was feeling guilty for having brought her friends to HM--that's just so Hime. I felt terrible for her. One day I want her to value herself enough to defend not just her friends but herself.

[Rain]

:hug
Ah, I'm so relieved to hear you say that. I'm too used to AnimeSuki, I guess where I say blue and three people say I said purple

yeah, I hate when i misread an idea and it leads to problems (its happens quite often sometimes, lol)

I think this is going to play an important part in her character development. The main REASON Orihime wants to be proactive, the main reason she wants to fight is so as not to be a burden on her friends. She's thinking of others. Everyone needs a reason to fight. I don't know if this is strong enough, though. The one time we've seen Tsubaki triumph was when Orihime shot him to protect Tatsuki. I'm going to guess that it's going to be a situation where she protects someone that she shoots him successfully again.

As for peeling off lechers, it's a matter of valuing herself enough to protect herself. One of the reasons I think she let those Arrancar girls beat her up so badly is that she was feeling guilty for having brought her friends to HM--that's just so Hime. I felt terrible for her. One day I want her to value herself enough to defend not just her friends but herself.

Yeah, i kind of want to believe that the reason she didn't fight back is because of the concept "it takes more strength to not fight", but im not sure i can apply that without sounding like a biased fanboy, lol

I do also want to see her standing up for herself more, we've seen the makings of it but it hasn't been fully achieved/displayed yet

But with the lechers, i actually want to see what she thinks about it (how she perceives them), given her personality, i wonder if what they do bothers her, and to what extent.

[Ninira]

Now please go back and read what Ninira said about tsundere-type characters tend to not be Japanese and put the subsequent discussion in context, please. No one is starting a race war, here.

I was actually meaning this in relation to series besides Bleach, since I don't think that there's a real tsundere-type character in Bleach. (Yandere, maybe...) I was thinking of Asuka from NGE and Shana from Shakugan no Shana when I had typed that. But I've opened up a huge can of worms, so I personally don't want to discuss it. (I'm sorry if I offended anyone with what I said.)

Back to the actual thread topic, I'm sure that eventually Orihime will fight, but I think her big moment will come when she's defending someone. She seems more powerful when she's fighting to defend someone (like when she beat the hollow threatening Tatsuki) than fighting to defend herself. So, basically, what debbbiechan already said. :p

[debbiechan]

'Salright, Ninira, some of us like worms for breakfast! :)

And yes, I was reading you right when you were talking about tsundere that you were talking about general series, not just Bleach. Just as a note, it's interesting how Kubo does work with many stereotypes and does the tiny twist on them. There are many characters in Bleach that are "types" and yet (I believe, but I'm the biggest Kubo fangirl around) that Kubo-sensei invests each with something a little extra to play on the stereotype.

In keeping with the topic, I don't think that Orihime, who is in so many ways your typical "magical girl" or your shoujo princess or your classic healer, is going to have the storyline people expect for her type of character. In the fairy tales, the Orihime type doesn't fight back at all and ends up with the prince. I believe that in Bleach, we're going to have something a little different. JMO. :D

[Shunsui Kyoraku]

Orihime's fate lies in the hands of Ichigo.

[Rain]

debbiechan- what will be different, her fighting or ending up with the prince

its better to not ask that:lmao

i dont want to sound like a fool, but what does tsundere mean:oops

Shunsui Kyoraku- interesting stance, would you mind elaborating

[Jasse]

@Rain:

Tsundere:

is a Japanese character archetype that describes a conceited, spikey, combative personality that later on turns to being modest and loving. It can also describe a personality that is good-willed, but its attitude and actions often contradict its nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere

and here:

it’s a female character type that