Animal Rights

[Luhy]

Do they have any?~ Do humans have Divine Right over the rest of rest of the animal kingdom?

We had people before we moved say that humans are the end-all be-all of animals... If a human wants to farm and slaughter animals to any extent for convenience, is it okay? Is eating dogs ethical? Are we just given this planet to do with as we wish and kill or use any animal we want in any way we wish?

[Shdo]

its not divine right, its the law of nature, the strong decide what to do with the weak. saying that we are above such laws of nature is actually saying we are better then them and are above nature and the universe. so what are we? the strong in the system, or cretures who are so advanced that we are better then the rest of nature and its laws?

[Fazal-sama]

I agree with Shdo :D
power 2 mankind!
And animals attack humans all the time cus we get in their territory, if an animal does that towards us, we would just try to get it back in nature.
And, we cant let animals get the control so we need 2 stay dominant.
Or the world will end =O

[Kenni]

I think we have absolutely no right in slaughtering animes when we just feel like it. Survival of the fittest? Animals attacking humans when they feel like it? Wrong. There's a main difference between our actions and the actions of an animal: We are able to think about it, animals are just acting on instinct. They always have a reason to attack us and its manly because WE did something wrong.
What I'm talking about is, that I'm perfectly fine with it, when we kill animals to feed ourselves. But I absolutely abhor killing animals just for fun, or because they've dared to come too near a human. (same with coats made of fur <- we don't need them to survive but the animals have to suffer)

If anyone is wondering why I'm saying that "Survival of the fittest" is wrong: humans are no longer under the influrence of this natural law, ot least only when someone got really bad handicaps.

[Shdo]

so we are better than them because we can reason? again you assume that they cant think and reason on their level.

actually there are many casses in nature of pure brutality for the sake of brutality, you just dont hear much about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gf0LIwcaRc&feature=related
they can show both brutality and caring just like we do, assuming that we are better then them because we can reason is flawed because we dont know how much reason they have, that assumption is what brought to the false belief that animels dont have emotions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E51DyWl_q0c

Try not to insult fellow posters please.

- FH

[kiera2]

We don't have a 'divine right' over the animal kingdom, but who says we need one? A lioness doesn't have a divine right to kill zebras.

There's a rather confrontational argument along the lines of not having climbed to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian, and to be honest while the wording could be better I totally agree with the sentiment. Eating meat is natural and I see nothing immoral about killing other animals for our own gain as a species - whether that be for nutrition, or for research into diseases.

[Luhy]

I never liked the idea of, our superiority means we can decide the fate of all living things~ if that were so true, wouldn't it mean if i'm a human, I can go and cook someones pet puppy?... or that the person with the higher I.Q. is in control of your life?

[Primera Espada]

For one, the notion of "pets" should be removed from the rights of animals. Seriously, if you're going to say animals have rights, slavery is pretty bad. At least when we eat an animal it's for survival. Keeping one as a pet is just showing you can completely control another living thing's existance.

That being said, the key difference between humans and animals is not only the ability to reason, but also sentience. The ability to recognize one's own existence and mortality. Animals do not have this. They operate on instinct, not higher thought levels. Fight or flight is instinct. This means they do not recognize or consciously think about their own mortality, they just have automatic programmed responses to it. Because of this, there are pretty much only a handful of animals on the planet that match up relatively close to the sentience of humans. dolphins are one, and mice are the other (lol, mice being a joke, props if you get it).

Deciding to eat an animal is nature. Deciding to NOT eat an animal, even though your body is built for such a thing, is going against nature. Sure, you can train yourself to eat an all vegetarian diet, just like you can train yourself to eat an all meat diet. It still isn't what our bodies normally need though.

Animals have no rights. They only have civil liberties. Liberties that are guaranteed to them by whatever government happens to be presiding over them at the time.

The reason?

The only things that have rights are humans because those are the only beings we, as a species, have the right to speak for. We can't give animals rights if we have no idea if they even AGREE with us about it.

Therefor we give them liberties that are general freedoms that the general public all agrees on.

Is it wrong to eat a dog? Of course not. Why do you think there are canines hanging in butcher shops in foreign countries. Just because YOU see an animal as a faithful companion or pet doesn't mean the rest of the world does. My dad used to work in China, and he used to say that he wouldn't even ask what things on the menu were, animal-wise, because then he'd not give it a try, due to his western upbringing. He would joke that in China, there are no "pets" There's only livestock.

Given the areas he was in (often the poor, rural areas) I am not surprised.

Now, that's not to say all Chinese people eat whatever they feel like, or are even OKAY with others eating them, but the fact remains, cultures all have different feelings on what is appropriate. The western culture seems to think that if an animal has any purpose other than food, they should never be used as food. I personally think it's awfully presumptuous to think they can't be used as both.

[kiera2]

I never liked the idea of, our superiority means we can decide the fate of all living things~ if that were so true, wouldn't it mean if i'm a human, I can go and cook someones pet puppy?...
Not sure what you're getting at here. You could cook a puppy, sure. Plenty of people eat dogs. Obviously not a puppy that belongs to someone else - but that's a property issue, not an animal rights issue.

[Luhy]

it means, someone posted that humans have divine judgement over animals. and i said what i said in response to it. the fact that it's a propert issue is a right's issue in own right, and pretending that weren't the case, it was an attempt to persuade the persons point of view.

[Unicorn]

it means, someone posted that humans have divine judgement over animals. and i said what i said in response to it. the fact that it's a propert issue is a right's issue in own right, and pretending that weren't the case, it was an attempt to persuade the persons point of view.

Not entirely sure how property issue = animal rights. Could you please explain further?

re: your initial post. No, I don't believe humans have a divine right over animals... or other humans, for that matter. Killing because 'divine being' told me so is still murder.

...

I have a bit of a... slanted view about animal rights. I love my steak and KFC and leather wallets, yet I respect animal rights. I guess I tend to believe the abbatoirs' assurances of humane killing of livestock.

My pet dog eats better than I do... who else gets fresh chicken for breakfast?

But... re: fur trade. Well... I will not support the fur industry when faux fur looks like the real thing and needs much less maintainence.

re: medicine trade. Yeah right, uhuh. Dead tiger parts and antlers really really help weak men. Someone needs to do a scientific study to show they shrink significant human parts, and maybe this practice will stop.

re: decorative items. Killing endangered species for something you can put on a shelf... gah. What massively selfish behaviour. If you're so rich, get someone to carve actual marble or precious gems... instead of ivory.

re: people vs wild animal encounters... these meetings usually result in human fatalities. It's kinda heartbreaking when, after that and all the media hype, the authorities go 'We'll kill the killer!'. WTF... the shark was in its environment and trying to get a meal. The caged tiger was being 'annoyed' and decided to lash out. The dog was trying to protect itself / its territory or even behaving as it was trained. We really need to get the idea that if we leave them alone, maybe they'll leave us alone?

[Luhy]

well, as someone else said, having a pet basically is like having a slave...

I agree with you too... lol x.x KFC is great... but if i saw someone kill a CHicken I would be furious...

there were times i even thought about leaving society to live with animals (daydreams/fantasies)... because animals can be so pure and intuitive, while humans can be so fake or corrupt... a human can pretend to be your friend while they secretly have agendas... an animal will either be friendly... or try to attack you... they're honest

I think animals should have more rights than humans should honestly~ who are we to decide the laws for all creatures?... or test on them or use them for convience and breed and kill them for un-necessary clothing sources or food we dont NEED when there are other options... when did it become okay to stop eating fruit and bread and wearing cotton... that we needed leather and burgers?...

what if there were gods or something that randomly ate humans just cuz they were easy to cook? (chicken) maybe just for our teeth, for jewelry... but they kill a whole human just for our teeth... (elephant tusks)... i could think of more examples too if i wanted, but it's kind of morbid if you think about it...

[kiera2]

I guess I tend to believe the abbatoirs' assurances of humane killing of livestock.
Yeah... I wouldn't look too closely into that, you might not like what you find :p

[Unicorn]

well, as someone else said, having a pet basically is like having a slave
... ...
for un-necessary clothing sources or food we dont NEED when there are other options... when did it become okay to stop eating fruit and bread and wearing cotton... that we needed leather and burgers?...
...
what if there were gods or something that randomly ate humans just cuz they were easy to cook?

1) I beg to differ. We're all slaves to the family pet. Like seriously. We get what he wants. I accept that in other households, pets are not as pampered....

2) Cavemen have been hunting food and clothes since ages ago. Fur and leather were essential to ward off the cold. I don't have a problem with leather and burgers, since they come from sustainably farmed cattle. Its exotic things like whale meat, sharks... its not really sustainable when hunted in commercial quantities.

3) We already have flesh-eating bacteria. And other insects that consider us as nice crunchy snacks.


@ Kiera2 - yeah, sometimes ignorance is bliss. The Aussie media tends to dig these types of dirt out, so whatever is not yet reported... I simply believe its kinda not really happening. :D

[Shdo]

WOW, in BF i was eaten alive for my stands and here i find support!

i dont think that pets are slavery, in most casses its almost symbiotic\partnership. btw cows go into this catagory as well, we ensure their race survival in exchange for eating them. tehre are ants who do the same with some insects, they use them as herds, making sure they are feed and protected only to take their products.


i dont think that being supirior means we need to exterminate cretures, a dead creture isnt going to help us in the future, few are the cretures we actually need to exterminate (cretures that actually endanger us and 8 sharks attacks are not endangering the human race, mosqitues with maleria are)

[kiera2]

@ Kiera2 - yeah, sometimes ignorance is bliss. The Aussie media tends to dig these types of dirt out, so whatever is not yet reported... I simply believe its kinda not really happening. :D
Personally I think I'd feel a little guilty about eating meat if I was lying to myself about where it came from - but I guess it depends on how strong your stomach is :p I've killed, gutted and eaten my own food in the past (chicken and fish) and I feel like that kinda helps me justify eating meat to myself x)

i dont think that pets are slavery, in most casses its almost symbiotic\partnership. btw cows go into this catagory as well, we ensure their race survival in exchange for eating them. tehre are ants who do the same with some insects, they use them as herds, making sure they are feed and protected only to take their products.
Haha, I was just about to bring up symbiosis. High five. I think Unicorn hit on the key phrase here, too - sustainably farmed. So long as we're not endangering a species, and so long as we're not inflicting cruelty without reason, I have no issue with using animals for the benefit of our own species. It's how nature works.

[Shdo]

as for the cruelty i am against it as well, even if i do give the apperance that being supirior by nature laws we have the right to kill them. having this right dosnt mean we should, a society that is cruel to cretures would encourage the cruelty and over the generations would degenerate to a cruel society and i belive that cruel society where only the strong survive is a society that is doomed to die out much like the spartans who were the best wariors ever but lost because their own cruelty brought to their demise.

[earthforge]

I'm pro-ESA. I'm pro-animal rights.

Shdo: Now I haven't stopped eating meat yet. Don't jump on me for that because I don't think it's really cruel (which is an abstraction) but it is a real waste. I agree that pet-person relationships are not slavery, and such is true with zoos. But not with cattle. People only see them as food and, therefore, abstractions and resultingly don't care.

Otherwise I agree.

What is disgusting to me is the US Congress and Pombo's group trying to make it so the ESA bent to the landowners interests. I wrote an 8-page paper on it. But humans cvan be so disgusting.

What I believe is that animals should have rights. However, by letting global warming continue with the same amount of emissions from the US we are killing animals by destroying their right to live.

[Shdo]

i am not an american and i am not aware of your problems when it comes to animel care (hell i just found out how you treat 50 millions of your own without health care only a few days ago) but on a general view, i think that what you consider right or wrong is only applying to your country and group. some1 from thailand might see eating a dog as a normal thing.

the same goes with human rights, if you were born in saudi arabia you wouldnt have rights whatsoever, basic human rights dont exist because they exist and are given to you by the fact that you are human, they are given to you by your society who thinks its the right thing for them to do.
if you society decide to give a animel some kind of special treatment its just because they decided that and not by some magical right granted by nature, nature have only one right and that is that the strong rule.


we are the strong and we decide how to treat others. and before some1 gives me this aliens who comes and put us in cages and 'that isnt nice is it?' then ill make things clear, if alien will decide to come and ass rape us it dosnt matter what we think about it, they are stronger and to hell with our morals.

[kiera2]

However, by letting global warming continue with the same amount of emissions from the US we are killing animals by destroying their right to live.
Pfft, no we're not. The Earth's climate constantly changes. Animals evolve or they die out - it's how the world works. To try to go against that process, to try to preserve the Earth's ecosystem exactly as it is today for all eternity, to assume that the animals we currently share the planet with are the 'right' ones, would be the height of arrogance and totally unnatural. There have been plenty of other mass extinction events in the history of the planet.

we are the strong and we decide how to treat others. and before some1 gives me this aliens who comes and put us in cages and 'that isnt nice is it?' then ill make things clear, if alien will decide to come and ass rape us it dosnt matter what we think about it, they are stronger and to hell with our morals.
I don't disagree that there'd be nothing we could do in a practical sense. But sentience comes with the capacity for Theory of Mind and from that stems the capacity for empathy and morality. Sentient beings should at least treat other sentient beings as well as they would expect to be treated.

[Shdo]

hopefully the other side thinks so, what i meant is that if the stronger decided to do somthing to us we wouldnt have much to do about it.


as for extinction of races, i think we should work against it because a dead race is a useless race, who knows wat medicine we will find in the fingernails of a tiger? or in the urine of a whale? its better to keep those cretures alive then to destroy them but we shouldnt cry for when they do exterminated, there was meteorites and there were iceages, and now there is humanity, adapt or die, that is the law of nature and the rise of the mega race of humanity is just another test for the cretures of this world, as of now the dodo failed but rats and dogs succeded.

[kiera2]

Equally, what if a new species, one that could only evolve into the ecological niche that would be left if tigers became extinct, had even better medicinal properties? We have no way of telling either way, and it seems pretty arrogant of us to think that we can pick and choose which species should survive.

[Shdo]

who know what other species will take the tiger place but that dosnt bother me, what worry me is how much TIME, the tiger is here NOW and untill a new species would evolve such argument is irrelevent, we need to keep the diversity of life because it helps us, for example keeping dolphins alive is important because its seems that they can help us with autisem and in learning non human languages. they might also one day be our equal as sentient beings and they will sue the japanese ass like hell.

killing a creture for no good reason is really stupid when you can study that creture and use it later. i say we should avoid and preserve the rainforests and animel races for our own greedy reasons, it will be much more effective then cry for morality and ethics we invent and this protector of the world role some of us gave our race.

we are no protector, we are the great devourer and we should only care about our well being, and part of our well being is to keep other races around so that we can use them later.

[Primera Espada]

the argument of animal protection and preservation ONLY applies (or at least, idyllically) to species where human involvement has caused their demise, rather than natural phenomenon like drought or storms.

We as human beings understand that to mess with an ecosystem too much is to spell doom. Most countries have some sort of national park or wildlife preserve for that purpose.

But, let's be honest, we're only saving them because it benefits us somehow, not because it's "right"

We don't want to throw the ecosystem too out of whack, cause that would be harder to deal with than simply saving the tigers or whatever that are already there. If a new species arose and wiped out the tigers, humans likely would not do much about it. This happens all the time, in fact. Also, let's try and avoid country bashing, especially when it has NOTHING to do with this topic (Healthcare? Seriously.)

[Vizard_King]

I say, Rights to Animels who taste bad.
lol
But Seriously, Shdo is right with the Law Of Nature.
Animels eat other Animels.
That is the Law.
No Spill Blood.
Who makes the rules?
Someone Else.

Animels Eat each other as well as us. So, Humans must do the same.
And not eating Meat is unhealthy, anyway

[Shdo]

what i dont understand is why people think that if lets say something comes and eat all the tigers then its natural and if humans do that its not, are we part of the system or above the system? if we are part of the system then its natural, if we are above the system then isnt that mean we are supirior to it?

[LUV]

Well, in response to the first post:

Whether we like it or not, animals don't really have any rights. I mean, unless the whole WORLD decides to become vegetarian we will keep on eating meat, which means animals will still be killed.

I don't believe we humans are above anything, but then again, the only thing that can really kill us is our own race. If you think about it, we are messing up this Earth so much and pretty soon, we ourselves are going to die.

Animals have been hunted since the beginning, so I don't think thats going to stop. I wish things weren't like that and that we were all vegetarian, but I love meat, I love steak and I love Burger Kings :D so I really can't say that its wrong to kill animals when I myself eat their meat.

[Shdo]

maybe in the future we will have meat made in tubes somewhere, with stem cells or something. i wonder what will be the vegeterian stand on that? headless cows with no nervouse system or internal organs...just a piece of meat.

[bradc]

maybe in the future we will have meat made in tubes somewhere, with stem cells or something. i wonder what will be the vegeterian stand on that? headless cows with no nervouse system or internal organs...just a piece of meat.

I believe Astronauts who flown in space already beat the future to it. They eat their meals in small packages so that it doesn't make a mess in space. The stem cell and cloning has already been done to cats, fruits and vegetables. Most foods we find in markets are no longer organic anymore.

Animal Rights are no different from Humans. Since we have experienced genocide of wiping out other cultures and races during the world wars II. It's no different from animals on our own planet we live in.

We continue to consume dumb animals such as Cows, Chicken, Turkeys, and Pigs; including Shellfish and Fish in our daily diet. Whatever PETA is not going to do next can pretty much be the next laughable joke. Is not stop the market from eating those animals in our dietary system.

The right thing to do is protect the endangered animals that are close to extinction. Due large amount of human activity in changing the landscape and what have you to expand population and the economy. That's what harming the animal's environment and causing them to change; plagues of other existing disease making it stronger and not neutral.

[earthforge]

kiera: Not when we're the one causing it. And it is much more massive then anything that happened before the dinosuars. Now, before you tell me that it's like the dinosuars, I shall agree. But do you remember from your classes how many animals survived? Only the dumber animals like crocodiles.

This time, however, we are causing it. We will be causing the extinctions of several species at once, like with the dinosuars. So it will be us who kill the species.

LUV: What's important is the cow that is wasted in your Big Mac. You can't eat the hair, skin, tail, hopves, or brain of that cow. So what's the point in killing them?

bradc: Add global climate change to your list. *gets shot* Hey, I wrote a paper on the effects of global warming on the endangered California Clapper Rail and in the end it becomes extinct! So what if I'm passionate about the subject?

[Thantos-Espada]

Animals have been slaughterd to feed humans since we're able to walk.

Animals kill animals its the circle of life, its the food chains its the W/E u wanna call it. Its not gonna change because people are bening to think that Animals dont deserve to die...


--------------------------------------------------------------


Theres the fact that animals are also used as experiments, for animal testing / and w/e else...

then u get some hippy tree huggers grenading people houses because they conduct exeperiments on animals? WTF is that, we're dumb and we want somthing to cause fights over convention?



Animal testing Exists to formulate Cures / Cleaning product / Food / clothing / electronics.


people are complaining "its cruelty" tbh with out it, 50% of the population would be dead from desease.

you wouldnt be able to wash your hair...


You would never eat beef / chicken / pork / lamb / salmon / tuna / Shrimps / calamari / frogs or Anything...

we'd be munching on Grain, and bread, we'd have no meat, no fish...


u wannalive like that? Become a vegitarian and stop comaplaining.


The animals u see with chips in thear heads?

thats ALL bs, made up by Viggilanty protestors. there are Animal labs ill admit it....

and they do conduct experiments, but they do it with care and thoguhts of wellbeing.

So what the animals live in cages? So do fking hampsters, u gonna run round the world realeasing all the lion from Zoo's because you think their being mistreated?


Without Animal testing Cancer products wouldn't Exist...


----------------------------------------------------------

But this doesn't mean tehy dont have rights.


lemmi just explain somthing clearly...


Animals did not right the constitutions

Animals Did not right the Animal Rights rules...

Animals Did not tell people "Dont experiment on me"

Animals Dont ahve rights because they've never made any, the second a chimp comes up to me and says "You have no right to mess with my brain" i wont beleive in animal rights.


Humans have the right to protect animals

and Humans have the right to IMPRISION PEOPLE WHO HURT ANIMALS.

im not saying animal cruelty is good, far from it animal cruelty is bad and people should be punished for it.

But, When it comes down to the greater good they are live stock, and we're not...


the reason...


because we made the rules. Not them...

[IngenuityGap]

What I believe is that animals should have rights. However, by letting global warming continue with the same amount of emissions from the US we are killing animals by destroying their right to live.

Bzzt, sorry, global warming is not a definite as the climate models don't take into account atmospheric changes, the effect of clouds (does more heat stay in or get reflected), water currents, or solar effects (such as flares on the sun, solar wind, etc). There are way too many factors to take into account and not enough solid records to properly chart these yet.


What can be stated, though, is that the current trend is heading back towards a cooling period and has been since about '98/'99.


As for animal rights, they don't have any. Livestock has always been used as a source of food for humans and we haven't obliterated any of those species yet. Pets such as dogs and cats have a long history of domestication, and it's that emotional attachment that makes it difficult for people to look at them as food (outside poverty food areas, of course). However no animal should be subjected to random cruelty either. My second cat is adopted from the shelter, before I got her someone abused her badly. Froze her paws, tossed her in a plastic bag and whipped her around, smacked her around. There's no need for that, a weaker creature doesn't need to be dominated to prove your superiority.

What I find truly disgusting, though, is the people that feel animals deserve more rights than humans. There was a sealing activist up here in Canada recently that was cheering on the death of four sealers after their boat was stuck, then pulled out incorrectly by a Coast Guard vessel. His statement was something along the lines of "Those four bastards are nothing compared to the 325 000 seals that have been butchered by those cigarette smoking apes." Now, the yearly limit is never more than 1600 or so seals. Enough to cull and feed the demand for seal products, but not nearly enough damage to eliminate the resource. The same man believe humans are "the AIDS for our Earth" and that we should voluntarily reduce the population to 1 billion people and allow animals the run of things.


Activists like this forget that man is an animal too, and that our reason hasn't completely eliminated our instincts.

[Shdo]

yes there are people who are really weird in behavior when it comes to prioreties of human lives and animal lives

http://www.vhemt.org/aboutvhemt.htm

[Thantos-Espada]

If animals had the Knowledge fo what rights were then i thin they should have them, but untill then animal right have been made by Protestors and loonys to have another reason to martch up and down waving boards in the Air and doing nothing but annoying everyone else...

[bradc]

Add global climate change to your list. *gets shot* Hey, I wrote a paper on the effects of global warming on the endangered California Clapper Rail and in the end it becomes extinct! So what if I'm passionate about the subject?

I agree it affects the climate changes and our own environment.

Let's not forget the base of Anthropology studies that we are once Apes. Our closes relatives being the Baboon, Gorilla and basically any type of monkeys. If you think animals don't have the rights as human do; however, the exception animals have instinct for survival, and humans have knowledge and survival skills.

yes there are people who are really weird in behavior when it comes to prioreties of human lives and animal lives


Not really Shido. You and I were once apes before we took form as a human. I guess we should be thankful we have higher knowledge and survival skills than being on the bottom of the food chain... But wild animals and larger cold blood reptiles still feed on us; if we are not careful when travelling elsewhere without guides, including pet dogs if they are not trained by their owners.

Livestock are basically dumb animals, which we feed on in our diets.



What I find truly disgusting, though, is the people that feel animals deserve more rights than humans. There was a sealing activist up here in Canada recently that was cheering on the death of four sealers after their boat was stuck, then pulled out incorrectly by a Coast Guard vessel. His statement was something along the lines of "Those four bastards are nothing compared to the 325 000 seals that have been butchered by those cigarette smoking apes." Now, the yearly limit is never more than 1600 or so seals. Enough to cull and feed the demand for seal products, but not nearly enough damage to eliminate the resource. The same man believe humans are "the AIDS for our Earth" and that we should voluntarily reduce the population to 1 billion people and allow animals the run of things.


Activists like this forget that man is an animal too, and that our reason hasn't completely eliminated our instincts.

Agreed... This is why you have predators and prey; to off set the balance of herds and large animal groups during mating season. Where there are 350,000 of seals compare to number of sharks out at sea. I guess the boat getting stuck has become something laughable of human failure because it was something beyond their own control.

[IngenuityGap]

Oh yes, the boat being towed flipped and the coast guard vessel kept plowing through the ice while dragging the upside down boat behind it.

[Grey Day]

A message to the WORLD :


Animals are good :cry

So Don't hurt 'em !! :yell </3

[Shdo]

Not really Shido. You and I were once apes before we took form as a human. I guess we should be thankful we have higher knowledge and survival skills than being on the bottom of the food chain... But wild animals and larger cold blood reptiles still feed on us; if we are not careful when travelling elsewhere without guides, including pet dogs if they are not trained by their owners.





?? what this got to do with what you quote? i said that there are people that care more for animal lives then humans (the boat thing for example).


as for being high in the food chain, humans are what is called super predator, there are not many such cretures but they are defined by not being eaten by anything else in their ecosystem (for example hayena or lion, they might be killed by another but they are not having a clear pray\predator relationship.
dogs are considered super predator as well because of their relationship with humans (cats are not for some reason, maybe because of the dogs?) whats diffrent with humans is that we are the super predator of the whole world, and even if you can find us everywhere there is no place in the world where we are regular pray(even being killed or eaten here and there dosnt mean you are a pray, from scientific prespective, especially when a creture does eat a human they would be killed soon after)

[kiera2]

kiera: Not when we're the one causing it. And it is much more massive then anything that happened before the dinosuars. Now, before you tell me that it's like the dinosuars, I shall agree. But do you remember from your classes how many animals survived? Only the dumber animals like crocodiles.
The Holocene (current) extinction event is still not even approaching the level of Cretaceous-Tertiary, and that extinction event was nowhere near the largest in history. Even high-extimate horror stories predicting things like the extinction of a quarter the world's species (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3375447.stm) wouldn't place the Holocene anywhere near the scale of the Permian-Triassic extinction, when over 95% of all marine life and 70% of land-based vertebrates became extinct. Regardless of cause, large-scale extinction events have occurred many times in the past, and the planet is more than capable of recovering from anything we can throw at it.

LUV: What's important is the cow that is wasted in your Big Mac. You can't eat the hair, skin, tail, hopves, or brain of that cow. So what's the point in killing them?
That's ridiculous. That's like saying, "Look at how we waste the entire Penicillium fungus for the sake of collecting one chemical - what a waste! We should stop making Penicillin." We don't have to make use of every single part of an animal for killing it to be worthwhile.

[Babbo]

LUV: What's important is the cow that is wasted in your Big Mac. You can't eat the hair, skin, tail, hopves, or brain of that cow. So what's the point in killing them?

Why eat it? Though in point of fact, cow brain is in fact eaten even in America, the only reason why it's fallen out of practice is mad cow disease. The bones on the other hand can be used for all to make tallow and in turn all sorts of synthetic lubricants/oils and god knows how many other things. Just google up "cow bone uses" if you don't believe babbo. The hooves are used for making buttons and quite a few other things. The same goes for pretty much any other part of the cow. Just because something isn't eaten doesn't mean it isn't put to use.

[Shdo]

Even high-extimate horror stories predicting things like the extinction of a quarter the world's species (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3375447.stm) wouldn't place the Holocene anywhere near the scale of the Permian-Triassic extinction, when over 95% of all marine life and 70% of land-based vertebrates became extinct. Regardless of cause, large-scale extinction events have occurred many times in the past, and the planet is more than capable of recovering from anything we can throw at it.



that is correct, extinction is a natural thing of life and its not the end of the world if species die for not adapting, it happend before and will happen again, with or without human intervantion.
but still we shouldnt activly drive a race down the extinction road, but if its happens then its not the end of the world.

[bradc]

?? what this got to do with what you quote? i said that there are people that care more for animal lives then humans (the boat thing for example).


as for being high in the food chain, humans are what is called super predator, there are not many such cretures but they are defined by not being eaten by anything else in their ecosystem (for example hayena or lion, they might be killed by another but they are not having a clear pray\predator relationship.
dogs are considered super predator as well because of their relationship with humans (cats are not for some reason, maybe because of the dogs?) whats diffrent with humans is that we are the super predator of the whole world, and even if you can find us everywhere there is no place in the world where we are regular pray(even being killed or eaten here and there dosnt mean you are a pray, from scientific prespective, especially when a creture does eat a human they would be killed soon after)


Humans are well high above on the food chain, but there a certain circumstances that most animals are endangered for that reasons because every man must hold a gun to wipe them out? Or use large nets to capture all the fish and shellfish in the world. Then a reserve aboriginal clan that uses a pike because that's what they feed and hunt on without hindering the numbers to wipe them out completely and hurting others; they allow them and leave them to grow in numbers before hunting season, or feed on fish as an alternative. Seals were once in endangers and there are certain part of the ecosystem that these animals are still endangered. The Lions and tigers, sea otters and many more that are on the endangered list that need to be preserved by the World Wild Life. Sure, if one gets bitten by a dog and decided it's a completely bad dog because a human and gets inflicted by disease if not careful because the dog is a stray dog and untrained. A human is no different from a dog, nor a cat or a fox.

[earthforge]

kiera:

The Holocene (current) extinction event is still not even approaching the level of Cretaceous-Tertiary, and that extinction event was nowhere near the largest in history. Even high-extimate horror stories predicting things like the extinction of a quarter the world's species (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3375447.stm) wouldn't place the Holocene anywhere near the scale of the Permian-Triassic extinction, when over 95% of all marine life and 70% of land-based vertebrates became extinct. Regardless of cause, large-scale extinction events have occurred many times in the past, and the planet is more than capable of recovering from anything we can throw at it.

Wari. Not what I meant. I meant that it may reach that level. But it shouldn't because it's not a natural cause, as human carbon dioxide emissions are.

But there will be more extinctions then you think. We've pushed many species to the edge already. Global climate change will just exacerbate the effect.

That's ridiculous. That's like saying, "Look at how we waste the entire Penicillium fungus for the sake of collecting one chemical - what a waste! We should stop making Penicillin." We don't have to make use of every single part of an animal for killing it to be worthwhile.

Nah. You don't need just one part of a cow to live. You can have many other meats too. Meat is a much more general area. You can have pork, sausage, sardines, etc. What I'm just saying is that taking down a whole cow is a waste of resources. It would be much cheaper to synthesize meat. Protein sequences are not that hard to deal with.

*gasket blow*

Keh, Godamn fear culture. Highly conservative-esque. Fear having guns taken away as well as other unnessecary pleasures. When it's earned it's fine, but otherwise it's stupid. /gasket blow

As opposed to Penicillin, which is required in some cases and is diffucult to synthesize on it's own. You are also talking about a fungus as opposed to an animal. I shall let the other people talk the thics in this most of the time, but why sacrifice and waste lives?

It's better for the cows, better for sales, better for us if we switch to synthesized meat. Think about what is right for everything first besides your "need" for meat. Yes, you need meat but not at the cost of an entire animal or farm.

Babbo: That doesn't happen anymore. Why? Because the Chinese now do it for us :D.

[bradc]

kiera:



Wari. Not what I meant. I meant that it may reach that level. But it shouldn't because it's not a natural cause, as human carbon dioxide emissions are.

But there will be more extinctions then you think. We've pushed many species to the edge already. Global climate change will just exacerbate the effect.



Nah. You don't need just one part of a cow to live. You can have many other meats too. Meat is a much more general area. You can have pork, sausage, sardines, etc. What I'm just saying is that taking down a whole cow is a waste of resources. It would be much cheaper to synthesize meat. Protein sequences are not that hard to deal with.

*gasket blow*

Keh, Godamn fear culture. Highly conservative-esque. Fear having guns taken away as well as other unnessecary pleasures. When it's earned it's fine, but otherwise it's stupid. /gasket blow

As opposed to Penicillin, which is required in some cases and is diffucult to synthesize on it's own. You are also talking about a fungus as opposed to an animal. I shall let the other people talk the thics in this most of the time, but why sacrifice and waste lives?

It's better for the cows, better for sales, better for us if we switch to synthesized meat. Think about what is right for everything first besides your "need" for meat. Yes, you need meat but not at the cost of an entire animal or farm.

Babbo: That doesn't happen anymore. Why? Because the Chinese now do it for us :D.

Asian culture do eat the entire body of cow and every part of the animal; nothing is wasted except what goes out of one's ass (horse, mule... think a better word would a car exhaust pipe in relation with horses and chariots). But we also eat other livestock animal whole; such the pig... The pig ear can be digested as you can with chicken tongue and so forth.

Asian culture are not fearing of guns taken away; it's the other way around with the American Culture. If Chinese are the power house of farming and agricultures without tractors and contraptions technological inventions, just using old ancient tools and simple technology to make a living; I have not heard anything about it on the news about them harming the endangered animals such elephant and bears, but perhaps that was a centuries ago, but things have progress and change. Human activities harming environment and only care about population, making pollution; then wiping out the entire human race and the animal kingdom can be said faster than done without batting an eye. We have already done a good job with the planet with live on...

[earthforge]

Etto, I was referencing American's. I'm not to sure about China because there are few press releases.

For the record, I mentioned fear culture only as in commodities being taken away. I was not pulling a stupid Obama. I recognized people would think that a bit later.

And that can all be avoided. Don't focus on extremes like humans will die or humans have to kill everything to live. We can think beyond that. We can solve problems for the entire planet without having to die AKA we can do more action to prevent our ecosystem from being destroyed. This is why we should solve the issue of global climate change. We have caused a destruction, and you can't deny that. Nor can you just say we should keep on going because animals and the Earth have survived this before.

Wrong.

The planet has not had an age caused by warming, so from a scientific perspective we cannot use the previous warming and cooling period as examples. This time we are the factor causing it, so there are bound to be differences from past warming/cooling periods.

You can't say the Earth will come out of global climate change unscarred as well. It will be heavily depleated and the atmosphere would become much weaker. Think about it.

Excuse me while I do my dialectical journal for english.

[bradc]

Etto, I was referencing American's. I'm not to sure about China because there are few press releases.

For the record, I mentioned fear culture only as in commodities being taken away. I was not pulling a stupid Obama. I recognized people would think that a bit later.

And that can all be avoided. Don't focus on extremes like humans will die or humans have to kill everything to live. We can think beyond that. We can solve problems for the entire planet without having to die AKA we can do more action to prevent our ecosystem from being destroyed. This is why we should solve the issue of global climate change. We have caused a destruction, and you can't deny that. Nor can you just say we should keep on going because animals and the Earth have survived this before.

Wrong.

The planet has not had an age caused by warming, so from a scientific perspective we cannot use the previous warming and cooling period as examples. This time we are the factor causing it, so there are bound to be differences from past warming/cooling periods.

You can't say the Earth will come out of global climate change unscarred as well. It will be heavily depleated and the atmosphere would become much weaker. Think about it.

Excuse me while I do my dialectical journal for english.


(Nods agreeingly)

Then again there natural causes and unknown deaths... Is always natural causes, but it can't possibly 1/5 of human activities consider there are so many tornadoes, hurricanes, flooding, lightening storms warnings in America and world wide; while volcanoes are everywhere waiting to explode like Pompeii during the Greek Era. Hell of our planet freezes over once a year...

There are weird scenarios where animals survives in these storms.

Mother nature owns us with Father thunder of rain storms!

[Thantos-Espada]

I beleive this topic is now repeating.

i think we should draw to a simple sentance conclusion,

The question i put to every one and i wan't straight answers.




Do you think / Beleive animals rights should be justified.






My answer, Yes to the degree that their Animals - Not people

[bradc]

I beleive this topic is now repeating.

i think we should draw to a simple sentance conclusion,

The question i put to every one and i wan't straight answers.




Do you think / Beleive animals rights should be justified.


My answer, Yes to the degree that their Animals - Not people


Yes to both can be justified.

Because you can swim like an otter, dive like a whale, hungry like a wolf and sing like a bird and fly like one, protect your own children like all these animals would; humans are pretty much animals... We are monsters of all animals; welcome to life, you live and die just like one and just as fragile when mother nature and father storm cloud decides to burn and destroy one's home. Animals and insects make their own home as do humans; in the end is not very different; the only difference is size...

[Shdo]

and scope, human expension and adaptation is rediculusly effective more then any other race. never did a race was so powerfull that it could on its own to destroy entire ecosystems and spread faster then anything else. never a race reach that level of adaptation so fast and in such a short time.

it wont be much exeggeration to say that humans are a force of nature, not much diffrent then the ice age. the cretures that wont adapt will die. that is all.


its our choice if we want to help a race here and there but we should really ask ourselves WHY should we help this race or another. extinction is a normal thing and most cretures got extincted from another race taht outpreformed them and drived them to the abyss.

so what is the diffrence?

[bradc]

and scope, human expension and adaptation is rediculusly effective more then any other race. never did a race was so powerfull that it could on its own to destroy entire ecosystems and spread faster then anything else. never a race reach that level of adaptation so fast and in such a short time.

it wont be much exeggeration to say that humans are a force of nature, not much diffrent then the ice age. the cretures that wont adapt will die. that is all.


its our choice if we want to help a race here and there but we should really ask ourselves WHY should we help this race or another. extinction is a normal thing and most cretures got extincted from another race taht outpreformed them and drived them to the abyss.

so what is the diffrence?

The running joke of this race never ends my friend; we can continue running and see how far one goes as on this animal planet. No matter where we live on the globe, everywhere is just the same. But animals, insects and humans cannot hop to one country and island no matter what.

Sadly humans are given the special privileges being able to adapt than an animals who still rely on instinct than survival skills, but that's no always the case if the person isn't strong enough to live, as would an injured animal would. In the end, everyone is the same as the other, including animals who behave like us in one way or another.

There is room in my beehive, want to join me? 8DDD