View Full Version : Ichigo, GJ and Inoue: deja chocolate aqui?
Alright, I did not mean to post this here, but since people seem a bit lost with Ichigo, GJ and Inoue right now, here is my take on the three. Again, that's my opinion and I'm not claiming I'm right.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_JOJO_002-003.jpg (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/JOJO_002-003.jpg)
Yes, I felt like beginning this entry with this spread. It is a bad omen for GJ. I mean, like all the deads Arrancars/Espadas, GJ is looking the same way: the way where death lead them (also it's from the first to be killed to the last and GJ is further away than Aaro, who was the last). To me, it means that GJ will probably die (99.99% chances of happening).
Everyone lately complained that Ichigo was so emotionless, and that they expected more from him and his fight with GJ. But I think it may have a very rational explanation. Let's try to understand how Ichigo is working.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch278-18.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch278-18.png) http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch278-19.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch278-19.png) http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch278-20.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch278-20.png)
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch278-2122.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch278-2122.png)
This is Ichigo in ch278. That Ichigo who was so focused on GJ, who taunted him so much and wanted to fight him so badly.
That chapter was a very promising chapter; Ichigo taunting someone like that, it was the very first time. There was so much determination in Ichigo's eyes on the double page that we could hope for some exciting fight.
We liked that Ichigo because all he showed back then was how much he wanted to fight GJ (which we always thought it would be, because GJ was the one who hurt Rukia hence his wrath towards GJ and how he sought GJ for his second fight during the chapters 230~).
There is nothing much to say about this Ichigo except it's the Ichigo we know; he reacted as everyone thought he would and is very in-character.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch279-18.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch279-18.png) http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch279-19.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch279-19.png)
This is Ichigo in ch279. I think those two pages are crucial to explain Ichigo's behaviour afterwards. He first say: "I'm... not fighting to crush you". There is a little hesitation, but he doesn't lie; this is what he thinks. There is no close-up to his mouth, and he's not hesitating too much. But then GJ gets mad at him and shouts: "Say it! Say you want to kill me! I sliced up your friend! So you want to kill me by tearing me apart!" Ichigo's reaction is one of surprise; the lines around his head, and his eyes (that become so round and tiny) show this. But why is he surprised exactly? I've theorized that maybe it was because he didn't think that GJ would catch that (and yes, I still believe that it's true because he didn't reply and deny it). However, someone commented that it was maybe because Ichigohimself didn't know the truth that GJ is saying: he wants to kill GJ because he nearly killed Rukia. That is something he has to face in battle, this first intent to kill.
But Ichigo is Ichigo; he's someone who doesn't want to kill, no matter what. In short, he's conflicted between two deepest desires. The first one that is written all over him (to not kill) and the second one that may make lose himself (to kill GJ).
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch280-03.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch280-03.png)
This is Ichigo in ch280. GJ is still very angry and says: "seems you really don't have any intention of killing me... you pathetic bastard." to which Ichigo replies "... what'd you say?" with a very determinated face. I don't think Ichigo would actually reply to the insult thrown by GJ which means that he's actually replying to the first affirmation... denying it. So between the end of ch279 and the beginning of chapter 280 (this is the third page), he understood his desire to kill GJ. And the fact that he's replying shows that he decided which road he would take.
So, what's up with Ichigo in chapter 281? This fight, as noticed earlier, is very passionless, emotionless, angerless, unlike Ichigo's fights against Renji and Byakuya (or even his fight with GJ in the 230 chapters). I think the answer is to seek within Ichigo.
As I said earlier, Ichigo is someone who is sweet inside. It's in his character, written all over him; Ichigo doesn't *kill*. He's someone who shows mercy to his ennemy. However, this is GJ we're talking about; a blood and battleseek, merciless enemy who nearly killed Rukia twice already. This is someone he *needs* to kill, whatever it takes. And Ichigo is very aware of that fact; but what killing GJ means is more than revenge up to this point. It means that he'll lose a part of himself, will scar himself (like Rukia was scarred) and on top of that, he's probably afraid that it will give more power to his hollow side.
That is precisely why Ichigo needs to be cold. He needs to be detached from this fight, to dissociate himself with his intent in order to be able to continue his journey. The fact that this is so un-Ichigo to be cold and not passionate or angered in a battle point towards that fact (I discount the earlier fight against Grand Fisher because I think Ichigo has grown a lot since then and learned what to die/to kill meant; I'd even say that he didn't really intent to kill GF anymore after saving Rukia). He's like this because his intent is to kill; if it was another fight where Ichigo wanted to prove something or protect someone, no problem, he'd be angered and passionate. However, GJ knows very well why Ichigo wants to kill him; he doesn't need a picture and even told Ichigo the truth. He put him in front of a wall and forced him to open his eyes. GJ forced Ichigo to deja his chocolate aqui already and because he lost his sweetness, all that's left is coldness and intent to kill.
Well, that is my theory XD
And yes, I do believe that it's Ichigo who will kill GJ; in the spread, there is no one interfering. It's all about GJ and Ichigo. Ichigo needs to kill him way more than Ulq. I truly think that this fight is a setup for Ichigo to have his first kill. I may be wrong of course but...
Moving onto Inoue and her godlike powers and pathetism (sorry Inoue fans, but for someone who wanted to fight by Ichigo's side, having Ichigo to tell her to use her protection shield is really a let down; this is MY opinion and whatever you say won't change this so don't argue this point with me). I think Kubo's intent is not to make her grow like he did with Rukia during the SS arc; if anything she's far, very far away from this. I think that Kubo needs to have her weak mentally for two things:
-she has godly powers so she needs to be weak mentally so that she wouldn't kill the entire cast of villains
-he needs her weak mentally so that she can be easily manipulated by Aizen and Ulquiorra
I don't think this rescue can be successful; if anything, Aizen won't let her go. She's been only there for two days, that would be a bit ridiculous and pointless. For her character, she needs to stay in HM (to grow differently from the others and embrace a darker path too). She already began to change; she shows that her faith in Ichigo is not so high after all (she doubts that he can win) and she's scared of him. She's like a 2 years old kid (Nell?) that Ichigo needs to reassure. If anything, she's greatly shaken and her reaction towards Ulq (I swear this was a guilty look she had when he looked at her) show that she begun to change already. Ichigo is straying farther away from the prince charming she imagined he was.
Emi-Shimizu
07-02-2007, 07:55 PM
Sadly,i think you are right,Syn.It seems that GJ will die.But i still have hope.Kubo-san is focusing on GJ much more than on other Arrancars.Sexsta espada has his songs on the newest Beat Collection also.And GJ is a type of rebel.Not a brainless freak listening to anything Aizen says.For a second i was even believing that he will join Ichigo,to defeat no.4 and kick Aizens butt.But that was only a fangirl dream.Even so,no matter what will happen to him,he remains cool as always.And the most important thing is that he enjoys the fight with Kurosaki.GJ is prepared that he may die.And also he said he will fight to death.Theres no giving up this time,and theres no one (except Ulquiorra)who would interrupt this fight.This is very less possible that Hime will join the fight.She is too frightened right now.And she is about to find out how strong and cruel can Kurosaki-kun be.I'm totally depressed now.Bye <3.
Shinrin
07-02-2007, 08:21 PM
Sounds reasonable, It really is interesting where Ichigo is going, spc corse he is the hero... A shounen hero, getting incuraged to kill without mercy... I don't recall in a main character, thats usually for the rival(Vegeta, Hiei etc)
Or like Kenshin starts with no mercy and gain mercy
Yeah Ichigo is moveing away from the Prince(Savior hero)
Noooooooooooo, not Grimmjow! D:
Seriously though, I agree. Ichigo has been acting way more cold and detached than he ever has in a fight before. Like you said, at first Ichigo wasn't even thinking that he could possibly want to kill Grimmjow, but Grimmjow seems to have forced Ichigo to realize that he does. With that realization Ichigo knows he has to be cold; he could possibly fear his hollow could become stronger if he gets to emotional and he cannot allow his emotions to get in the way of fighting at his best. This battle is very different from any that Ichigo has had before; this isn't a fight to protect or prove something, it's either you kill or you get killed.
Inoue... well I'm still peeved about what her character has been doing lately. However, I do think that KT kept her there for a reason. I agree that her outlook on what Ichigo is has been shaken lately. IMO, her watching this fight and seeing the outcome of it could completely change how she views Ichigo. I don't really like that it ended up this way, but that's what I think will happen.
nice thread as usual synderella.
One of the things thats kept me reading this arc was the last part of the Barons lecture series, to see Ichigo lose his sweetness and how that would impact on his character as well as his relationships with others.
It's a nice oberservation that it may well have already happened and perhaps the bleeding/running mask is a subsequent change this has brought about
just one more thing
-he needs her weak mentally so that she can be easily manipulated by Aizen and Ulquiorra
I personally prefer to look at it the other way around, Aizen and Ulquiorra's manipulation is causing her to suffer from increased mental weakness.
I'm not looking at it in a character point of view Mori, but in an author point of view; the fact that Kubo needs Inoue weak made him trap her psychologically and weakened her mental state.
The Baron's lecture was a big hint that Ichigo may lose his sweetness behind him and I think that Kubo chose the title 'the Baron's lecture' for vol28 tells a lot too. It is a very important moment.
And I believe it already happened, when Ichigo realized that what GJ said in ch279 was true. He was forced to confront his darkest desire and to cope with it; because there is no other way around for him. I found it incredibly interesting that Ichigo denied that he didn't want to kill GJ in ch280. It is no surprise that he had his power up; the trigger being leaving his sweetness behind.
I'm not looking at it in a character point of view Mori, but in an author point of view; the fact that Kubo needs Inoue weak made him trap her psychologically and weakened her mental state.
ahh okie kokie :3
but yeah, Ichigo definately learnt a lesson from Dordoni, or at least Dordoni taught him the lesson. Whether Ichigo realises at the moment that he might be embracing the lesson or not is up for debate though I suppose.
(westeros <3)
yanniv
07-03-2007, 06:15 AM
The Baron's lecture was a big hint that Ichigo may lose his sweetness behind him and I think that Kubo chose the title 'the Baron's lecture' for vol28 tells a lot too. It is a very important moment.
I don't think it was a big hint when he first said it. Ichigo still was sweet with Ulquiorra over whether or not to fight him.
Though I'm sure Ichigo will eventually reach that status. Probably ending with the Grimmjow fight, I hope.
Sarada
07-03-2007, 06:41 PM
Ichigo doesn't need to become more detached from the fight. What he needs to do is enjoy it, get into it, get the drive to cut. He's all about wanting to protect this or that now, but at this point he's right at the point when he was against Kenpachi. He has no enjoyment in the fight, he is affraid to be cut, he is affraid his friends will die. This fear will give the Hollow a chance to take over, not the intent to kill. The Hollow will only submit to a strong King, wich is ready to kill. It only understands brute force, and this is what Ichigo is not showing.
About Hime.
I think it's pretty pointless to discuss wether she is weak and pathetic. She is what Kubo wants her to be. She was never a fighter, not every character has to be, her powers are not very suited for fighting. She is physically not very strong. Comparing her to Rukia, who has been trained in fighting for a long time, is not fair on her.
As you said, discussing is pretty pointless, since your innitial post is engraved with a liking for Rukia and a disliking for Orihime. Hence you interpret everything in that viewpoint.
I expect not to be negged by you for this post Syn, I'm not bashing anyone, I'm making observations.
Ichigo doesn't need to become more detached from the fight. What he needs to do is enjoy it, get into it, get the drive to cut. He's all about wanting to protect this or that now, but at this point he's right at the point when he was against Kenpachi. He has no enjoyment in the fight, he is affraid to be cut, he is affraid his friends will die. This fear will give the Hollow a chance to take over, not the intent to kill. The Hollow will only submit to a strong King, wich is ready to kill. It only understands brute force, and this is what Ichigo is not showing.
About Hime.
I think it's pretty pointless to discuss wether she is weak and pathetic. She is what Kubo wants her to be. She was never a fighter, not every character has to be, her powers are not very suited for fighting. She is physically not very strong. Comparing her to Rukia, who has been trained in fighting for a long time, is not fair on her.
As you said, discussing is pretty pointless, since your innitial post is engraved with a liking for Rukia and a disliking for Orihime. Hence you interpret everything in that viewpoint.
QFT.
I think too much biased opinions and hate here. As I said in my previous post too. That's what Kubo wants. It is an arc about taking Orihime down to nervous breakdown on every aspect.
Ileenka
07-03-2007, 07:04 PM
I think you have made pretty good observations and analysis on Ichigo's character, Syn. Your hypothesis could very well be a good reason why he does *need* to be detached from his own sweet self, thus, leaving his cotton-candy, bons bons and chocolate behind, leaving them all to kill.
I was very frustrated by this passionless and emotionless fight, and it is stretching for chapters. It is driving me crazy because of how KT seems to be driving for a huge, grand fight between Grimmjow and Ichigo, yet the whole thing seems stale and bland. But you have convinced me that Grimmjow will die (though this thought has always been nagging at the back of my mind), but your hypothetical assumptions are logical deductions from the main colour spread that KT drew for Chapter 278.
And I can't agree more with Orihime. Her flaws, can build a mountain. Her strengths, other than her physical powers, she has no emotional nor mental strength whatsoever. She can't even protect herself on her own accord, what more to say to take down an espada. To run to her friends is the least she could do, and yet she needs Ichigo to tell her to put up her shield and protect her from a cero once more. I guess the change you mention about is very right as well, that her views on Ichigo is changing. I don't know where this will lead yet, but everyone's destinies will change, and Orihime has taken 100 chapters to change for the worse. This is just like how Ichigo has noted back in Chapter 33 of Rockin' Future Seven.
Thank you, Syn! ^__^
I think you have made pretty good observations and analysis on Ichigo's character, Syn. Your hypothesis could very well be a good reason why he does *need* to be detached from his own sweet self, thus, leaving his cotton-candy, bons bons and chocolate behind, leaving them all to kill.
I was very frustrated by this passionless and emotionless fight, and it is stretching for chapters. It is driving me crazy because of how KT seems to be driving for a huge, grand fight between Grimmjow and Ichigo, yet the whole thing seems stale and bland. But you have convinced me that Grimmjow will die (though this thought has always been nagging at the back of my mind), but your hypothetical assumptions are logical deductions from the main colour spread that KT drew for Chapter 278.
And I can't agree more with Orihime. Her flaws, can build a mountain. Her strengths, other than her physical powers, she has no emotional nor mental strength whatsoever. She can't even protect herself on her own accord, what more to say to take down an espada. To run to her friends is the least she could do, and yet she needs Ichigo to tell her to put up her shield and protect her from a cero once more. I guess the change you mention about is very right as well, that her views on Ichigo is changing. I don't know where this will lead yet, but everyone's destinies will change, and Orihime has taken 100 chapters to change for the worse. This is just like how Ichigo has noted back in Chapter 33 of Rockin' Future Seven.
Thank you, Syn! ^__^
QFT! Excellent analysis and observation of Orihime's flaws and lack of reaction to ... well anything. I'm surprised some of her fans like her to be this way where her only dialogue out of her mouth is "kurosa..ki...kun" in the whole chapter. Even debbiechan, a person who has championed orihime, is bewildered by this behavior because we know Orihime can do better.
I also agree with Syn that there will be a downward spiral for Orihime and this arc is meant to break her down rather than build her up. While frustrating to see, I just don't see any consistent behavior from her character.
I pretty much agree here. Honestly, I never imagined that this arc would be so dark, but I guess it is that way because the characters are going to have some serious developement. I think in a way, by the characters being split up like that, going down different paths, they are left alone to face themselves (illustrated by Rukia and now Ichigo).
I'm sort of disappointed with Inoue's character, even though she's not my cup of tea, I honestly wanted her to develope into a character I actually did like. In fact, she has actually disgressed, but I think this is part of Kubo's master plan. Because I think for someone to grow stronger, they need to be broken down first.
Ileenka
07-03-2007, 07:28 PM
QFT! Excellent analysis and observation of Orihime's flaws and lack of reaction to ... well anything. I'm surprised some of her fans like her to be this way where her only dialogue out of her mouth is "kurosa..ki...kun" in the whole chapter. Even debbiechan, a person who has championed orihime, is bewildered by this behavior because we know Orihime can do better.
I also agree with Syn that there will be a downward spiral for Orihime and this arc is meant to break her down rather than build her up. While frustrating to see, I just don't see any consistent behavior from her character.
QFT.
Debbiechan is the ultimate Orihime fan whom I have high respect for. She has always been quick to defend Orihime, and has been exceptionally rational and diplomatic in many Orihime-vilifying situations. In fact, there were times when she convinced me that Orihime is not as spastic or selfish as she seems.
However, recent chapters have confused many Orihime fans who are bewildered by her outrageous and pathetic behaviour. I guess there is probably more to this, and the usual, simple and weighless 'what do you expect her to do' argument fails.
I love Grimmjow, but his death is inevitable. And on the infinitesimally small probability that he won't be killed in here, he will still die eventually. That being said however, he will forever live in my memories as the unreleased 6th Espada, the one without acrobat tights.
brightredglow
07-03-2007, 07:35 PM
Irregardless if one likes or dislikes, is disappointed or just fine, with Orihime and Ichigo, Kubo must be doing something right because so much thought and words and emotion are dedicated to discussing them, especially Orihime.
Just as Rukia's situation in SS encouraged debate for and against her character, Orihime behavior is encouraging debate on hers. I may not be particularly favorable to Kubo's writing style at present or the arc in general, but in that respect, I'll give Kubo his due. He's got the fan attention on Orihime whether she is the focus of a chapter or not.
As to the topic itself, I don't know. I can't even fathom a guess as to what Kubo is doing with his characters, Ichigo, Orihime, or anyone else, or the storyline. Kubo has left so many open ends that almost anyone could put together a theory that will fit until proven otherwise. That's not discounting the opinion. It is just saying that I'm not ready to buy into much as far as this story goes.
But I will agree on one thing and that is with Sarada who said that Ichigo has to admit that he enjoys the fighting. Ishida, in his own way, openly admits that he enjoys the challenge. He wants to protect and he's okay with legalizing his reasons for fighting, but he doesn't avoid the joy he feels when faced with a challenge. As such, there isn't much conflict in Ishida and if needed, he'll go for the kill or at least, an ego-crushing defeat that may as well be a kill. But Ichigo still doesn't get it. He wants it both ways and in a fight to protect or survive, having it both ways isn't an option... unless of course you are Tenma of Monster but that's another (better) story altogether.
Sarada
07-03-2007, 07:39 PM
And I can't agree more with Orihime. Her flaws, can build a mountain. Her strengths, other than her physical powers, she has no emotional nor mental strength whatsoever. She can't even protect herself on her own accord, what more to say to take down an espada.
Orihime is very realistic in character. She's only 15 years old, so you can't expect her to be superwoman. And someone of her strength, wich may be seated level thanks to her powers if she was a trained shinigami, couldn't realistically defeat an Espada, not even a stupid Gillian level Espada.
I think this is getting back to the "why does she stay where she is and why doesn't she go rescue her friends".
@Sarada:"Orihime is very realistic in character. She's only 15 years old, so you can't expect her to be superwoman."
Ichigo, Ishida, and Sado are the same age (I think it's sixteen now), so I don't see how that's relevant.
This topic is going to get closed~
I can see another Orhime bash thread starting. Could we please get off the topic of Orihime's behavior? It's already been discussed. Both sides don't agree with each other, and it will go in circles.
Orihime is very realistic in character. She's only 15 years old, so you can't expect her to be superwoman. And someone of her strength, wich may be seated level thanks to her powers if she was a trained shinigami, couldn't realistically defeat an Espada, not even a stupid Gillian level Espada.
I think this is getting back to the "why does she stay where she is and why doesn't she go rescue her friends".
Orihime is a hormonal 15-year-old teenager, I agree with that completely. However, so are Chad, Ishida, and Ichigo, and they've been portrayed in a much more heroic manner.
You say that Orihime couldn't defeat an espada. Nobody is expecting her to, since as ileenka astutely put it, can't even protect herself in battle. However,
Orihime herself resolved to fight and help her precious "Kurosaki-kun" and was on her way to the Grimmjow versus Ichigo fight (round 2) to help him on the battle front. I doubt it was for defensive purposes solely. She herself thought she was strong enough to help against Grimmjow at that point, why does everyone dismiss that.
She did have the intention to actively fight. If you look at her past behavior, she even was able to defeat a hollow to protect Tatsuki by herself. She wanted to help Ishida fight against Mayuri as well.
But again, nobody is expecting her to follow through on her vow to stand by Ichigo's side and fight, instead of looking at his back, because GJ versus Tsubaki would be even more pathetic.
However, she does have the power to use her "healing abilities" and help her friends. It requires some risk and some selfless behavior, but no more risk than everyone else has gone through for her sake. It requires some strength of resolve and an ability to act by herself instead of just listening to what Ichigo says.
However, KT has purposely not shown her in a heroic light these past chapters, nor any of the fulfillments of the resolutions she made to actively fight and protect. We know she has the power, she has loads of it, but the mental strength she lacks. Therefore, like Syn, I believe this arc is to show the mental breakdown of her character because she had an opportunity to shine but instead she just stood on the sidelines and waited.
Sarada
07-03-2007, 08:01 PM
@Sarada:"Orihime is very realistic in character. She's only 15 years old, so you can't expect her to be superwoman."
Ichigo, Ishida, and Sado are the same age (I think it's sixteen now), so I don't see how that's relevant.
They are the 'heroes' of the story obviously, they are the ones doing the fighting, hence they have to have a strong character.
You say that Orihime couldn't defeat an espada. Nobody is expecting to her, since as ileenka astutely put it, can't even protect herself in battle. However,
Orihime herself resolved to fight and help her precious "kurosaki-kun" and was on her way to the Grimmjow versus Ichigo fight (round 2) to help him on the battle front. I doubt it was for defensive purposes solely. She herself thought she was strong enough to help against Grimmjow at that point, why does everyone dismiss that.
You're saying you don't expect her to do that, but one of you IS using that as an example of her being weak and useless.
She did have the intention to actively fight. If you look at her past behavior, she even was able to defeat a hollow to protect Tatsuki by herself. She wanted to help Ishida fight against Mayuri as well.
Yes, she did make her resolve, but she has to realise at some point that she just isn't suited for fighting like the others are. That's not a reason to call her weak of character.
But again, nobody is expecting her to follow through on her vow to stand by Ichigo's side and fight, instead of looking at his back, because GJ versus Tsubaki would be even more pathetic.
That wouldn't be a fight. And what are you trying to do? You can diss her attacking powers, but I know they suck, I like Orihime because she and Grimmjow are hot together.
However, she does have the power to use her "healing abilities" and help her friends. It requires some risk and some selfless behavior, but no more risk than everyone else has gone through for her sake. It requires some strength of resolve and an ability to act by herself instead of just listening to what Ichigo says.
So in your opinion, she should leave the fight, get lost in Las Noches, because obviously she doesn't know the layout, and Chado's and Rukia's reiatsu is non existant now, because they are near-death, possibly get attacked by a stupid Arrancar who thinks he can have fun with her, or get captured by some other Espada and be taken away again?
However, KT has purposely not shown her in a heroic light these past chapters, nor any of the fulfillments of the resolutions she made to actively fight and protect. We know she has the power, she has loads of it, but the mental strength she doesn't. Therefore, like Syn, I believe this arc is to show the mental breakdown of her character because she had an opportunity to shine but instead she just stood on the sidelines and waited.
And you all are holding that against her. You are dissing her character, but staying where she is is the smartest thing she can do.
Riekie
07-03-2007, 08:12 PM
As Axie might have guessed it you guys know what to do. Please keep on topic..don't start a war of any kind and keep it about Ichigo, Grimmjow and Orihime..not all Orihime and what she lacks and what not.
Thanks guys,
Riekie
Ileenka
07-03-2007, 08:19 PM
They are the 'heroes' of the story obviously, they are the ones doing the fighting, hence they have to have a strong character.
QFT? Therefore you're implying Orihime is a cameo?
You're saying you don't expect her to do that, but one of you IS using that as an example of her being weak and useless.
Not really. :confused: Our expectation for Orihime is pretty low. And when she isn't able to meet even that meagre expectation, she falls into the 'weak and useless' category. :D
Yes, she did make her resolve, but she has to realise at some point that she just isn't suited for fighting like the others are. That's not a reason to call her weak of character.
Yes, she has to realise that she is weak. ^_^
That wouldn't be a fight. And what are you trying to do? You can diss her attacking powers, but I know they suck, I like Orihime because she and Grimmjow are hot together.
Her attacking powers are against her. Tsubaki hates her because she has no will to fight, and she is weak for not being able to utilise it. And I like Rukia and Grimmjow. ^_^
So in your opinion, she should leave the fight, get lost in Las Noches, because obviously she doesn't know the layout,
The rescue team doesn't know the layout of Las Noches when they bust into HM. :rolleyes:
and Chado's and Rukia's reiatsu is non existant now, because they are near-death, possibly get attacked by a stupid Arrancar who thinks he can have fun with her, or get captured by some other Espada and be taken away again?
So? :confused: If she gets attacked by some random Arrancar while she's running to her friends, you are expecting her to get beaten up like she allowed herself to be beaten up by the arrancar girls in Chapter 272, right? Again, even you yourself are expecting her to get owned without being able to resist capture or abuse. So this submission and passiveness is supposed to be okay in the world of shounen? :confused: Wrong world for Inoue Orihime to be in, FYI.
And you all are holding that against her. You are dissing her character, but staying where she is is the smartest thing she can do.
I doubt she is using her mind right now. So 'smartest thing to do' has been automatically been made invalid. ^_^
Sarada:
I like Orihime because she and Grimmjow are hot together.
Well -that´s- a good reason to actually like a character (irony). >_>
Sorry, but it really is hard for me to understand why people support characters, because they happen to look good with x, y, z.
Is that all?
Even if she acts totally OOC: that doesn´t matter as long as she looks hot with Grimmjow....
Riekie
07-03-2007, 08:26 PM
Apparently it's hard to read..so this thread is closed..until further notice. Thanks for everyone cooperating.
Riekie
---------------------------------------------------------------
So…after much consideration I’ve decided to open up the thread again..but be warned. Any flaming, bashing, shipping, trolling or whatever kind of negativity towards other members and such will lead into closing this thread.
Now everyone, have a good time.
Riekie
Ichigo doesn't need to become more detached from the fight. What he needs to do is enjoy it, get into it, get the drive to cut. He's all about wanting to protect this or that now, but at this point he's right at the point when he was against Kenpachi. He has no enjoyment in the fight, he is affraid to be cut, he is affraid his friends will die. This fear will give the Hollow a chance to take over, not the intent to kill. The Hollow will only submit to a strong King, wich is ready to kill. It only understands brute force, and this is what Ichigo is not showing.
He doesn't need to enjoy it, as pinpointed by Dordonie, but to leave the sweetness behind; which means he needs to show no mercy to his ennemies, which is what Ichigo is doing right now. For him to worry about his friends is normal, it's anchored deep down in his soul because he's the one to protect (and he's proud of it). An Ichigo who wouldn't be afraid for his friends would be much less Ichigo and much less heroic. Bleach is about friendship and protecting so Ichigo has to keep this side to still be Ichigo.
Ichigo being the strongest when he protects, so if he loses that, he'll lose more than himself to his hollow.
She is what Kubo wants her to be. She was never a fighter, not every character has to be, her powers are not very suited for fighting. She is physically not very strong. Comparing her to Rukia, who has been trained in fighting for a long time, is not fair on her.
I never wanted her to be a fighter. As I said many, many times, she has a powerful healing, a strong protective shield, so she doesn't need to fight per se. It is not her skills, but her will that I examine. And again, my POV was more from an author point of view than anything else. It is possible to make someone shine without him having to fight at all. That was not my point. Also, I was not comparing her to Rukia per se, but rather how they change during their respective arcs. Rukia's will impressed me during the SS arc, I cannot say the same with Inoue.
As you said, discussing is pretty pointless, since your innitial post is engraved with a liking for Rukia and a disliking for Orihime. Hence you interpret everything in that viewpoint.
Again, I do not dislike Inoue. How can I dislike a flowerpot?
I pretty much agree here. Honestly, I never imagined that this arc would be so dark, but I guess it is that way because the characters are going to have some serious developement. I think in a way, by the characters being split up like that, going down different paths, they are left alone to face themselves (illustrated by Rukia and now Ichigo).
This is very true Cara, I guess this arc needed to be darker (we already had a clue when Dordonie has been killed by the squad). The darker, the strongest the heroes will get out of it I guess.
Irregardless if one likes or dislikes, is disappointed or just fine, with Orihime and Ichigo, Kubo must be doing something right because so much thought and words and emotion are dedicated to discussing them, especially Orihime.
I don't believe that Kubo doesn't have his reasons for doing what he's doing; he's acting on purpose.
Just as Rukia's situation in SS encouraged debate for and against her character, Orihime behavior is encouraging debate on hers. I may not be particularly favorable to Kubo's writing style at present or the arc in general, but in that respect, I'll give Kubo his due. He's got the fan attention on Orihime whether she is the focus of a chapter or not.
I'm not sure he's doing quite a favour there, considering the amount of hate Inoue is having on the Japanese boards (more than what Rukia ever had). If it's his goal, though, then fine by me. But I can't believe that he doesn't have a clue of what's happening with his fans.
As to the topic itself, I don't know. I can't even fathom a guess as to what Kubo is doing with his characters, Ichigo, Orihime, or anyone else, or the storyline. Kubo has left so many open ends that almost anyone could put together a theory that will fit until proven otherwise. That's not discounting the opinion. It is just saying that I'm not ready to buy into much as far as this story goes.
Theorizing is fun and entertaining, as well as analyzing =) I don't think this dissociation will ever be explained but GJ dying is something I can totally see happening. I just compared to how Ichigo previously fought and what was said in this fight to try to grasp this un-Ichigo behaviour.
But I will agree on one thing and that is with Sarada who said that Ichigo has to admit that he enjoys the fighting. Ishida, in his own way, openly admits that he enjoys the challenge. He wants to protect and he's okay with legalizing his reasons for fighting, but he doesn't avoid the joy he feels when faced with a challenge. As such, there isn't much conflict in Ishida and if needed, he'll go for the kill or at least, an ego-crushing defeat that may as well be a kill. But Ichigo still doesn't get it. He wants it both ways and in a fight to protect or survive, having it both ways isn't an option...
Ichigo and Ishida are very similar, yet different. Ichigo needs to know that he fights to protect; unlike Ishida, he caused his mother's death, and that caused him more troubles than what Ishida's grandpa's death ever caused to the latter (because he was not the cause of his death). Unlike Ishida, Ichigo never truly enjoyed fighting. He did fight, for various reasons, but he never enjoyed it; I think it is a big misconception in Ichigo's character to say that he enjoys fighting and should admit it. He's very different from Kenpachi in that aspect. He enjoys it to a certain degree, but he does not seek fights.
Orihime is very realistic in character. She's only 15 years old, so you can't expect her to be superwoman. And someone of her strength, wich may be seated level thanks to her powers if she was a trained shinigami, couldn't realistically defeat an Espada, not even a stupid Gillian level Espada.
No one expects her to be superwoman, even though Aizen said she had god-like powers. But I do expect a will of a hero; she might be a normal 16 years old girl, she's still a hero given her powers.
@Riekie: thanks for reopening it :p
brightredglow
07-04-2007, 10:26 AM
Ichigo and Ishida are very similar, yet different. Ichigo needs to know that he fights to protect; unlike Ishida, he caused his mother's death, and that caused him more troubles than what Ishida's grandpa's death ever caused to the latter (because he was not the cause of his death). Unlike Ishida, Ichigo never truly enjoyed fighting. He did fight, for various reasons, but he never enjoyed it; I think it is a big misconception in Ichigo's character to say that he enjoys fighting and should admit it. He's very different from Kenpachi in that aspect. He enjoys it to a certain degree, but he does not seek fights.
Ichigo doesn't seek fights? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Ichigo seeking a fight from the very first chapter? How do we know he doesn't enjoy it? Granted he doesn't seek fights out all the time, but he doesn't avoid them either (generally) and I don't recall him ever saying, "I don't like to fight."
I concede that Ichigo isn't Kenpachi who thirsts for fighting with his whole being but neither is he like Keigo who doesn't seek fights but fights find him (as shown on ch 0.8 A Wonderful Error).
Ichigo may legalize his reason for fighting as protecting but there is a bit of dishonesty in Ichigo in that being his sole reason for fighting and I like that GJ called him on it.
As for Orihime, I don't know where Kubo is going with her but I'm not ruling anything out. Maybe Kubo will take her down Momo's path OR he may take her down Rangiku's. Or maybe there will be her own path. There are options that Kubo's kept open but whatever happens, though, the fact remains that we are talking about her. In a way, her behavior, small as it was in ch 281, seem to have more impact on discussion than Ichigo's and that is something pretty special.
Emi-Shimizu
07-04-2007, 11:27 AM
As an ultimate GJ fangirl,i am still hoping that somehow he may survive.You may call me naive or stupid,but who wants their favourite male Bleach character to die,hmm?
The friend of mine said that Grimmjow definietely won't be eliminated,cause KT is focusing at him very much.And indeed he is.Its because Grimmjow is changing Ichigo right now.Because of GJ,Kurosaki is realizing what his instincts truly are,he's learning to fight with the full force.And of course GJ is Ichigos main opponent currently.He will really do his best,to defeat 6th.Thats why Grimmy is so important.Those changes in Ichigo,will have a big influence on the plot in the upcoming chapters.They will change Himes thougths about him.KT is soo evil xD.But oh well...if our Catman wants a fight to death,then maybe Ichigo won't kill him just to piss him off?.<fangirling>.
And now about Orihime:she is completely stunned now.She is not thinking at all.Completely focused on Ichigo.She have never seen him fighting like that.She didn't really knew nothing about his power,his hollow,his mask,and his true personality at all.She knew only a prince in a shining armor,the Kurosaki-kun she imagined.I am not telling this to instult anyone.Those are just my thoughts.I could just shut up,but i wont.I will try to defent my beloved Grimmy with all the English words that i know(not many,actually ;P,so be at peace)even if its pointless xD.And if i made any mistakes in the grammar or anything else,i'm very sorry.I hope that anyone understand what i wrote.Bai Bai.
Ps.Posted both in here,and in topic Grimmjow a goner.xD
Ps.2.Mhmm...i think Ichigo is seeking a fight.Inside of him.As syn said-he is only fighting to protect(or at least he think so)but i think he is not completely a sugar boy.I don't think he will admit it,but as i said before,GJ is trying to force him.Kenpachi was trying to do this also.I don't want Kurosaki to go all out,like berserk or somethin'-thats what GJ wants him to do.I want Ichigo to think,to remember all those people he wants to protect,and then i want him to fight for them.
Ohoh...and i want him to spare GJ <3
Ohoh and i want his reunion with Rukia <3<3
God i want him to do so many things....
And i am proud of this post xP.
manfan
07-04-2007, 11:29 AM
Hello, Syn,
Normally I don't do this, interrupting your chain of thoughts DOTW as it was always usually in your IchiRuki FC, you normally post them there, right? But since you posted it here, in the manga section for the public to see, then ....hope you don't mind, I'd like to chip in my opinion as to where in areas of your chain of thoughts went wrong. Bear in mind, since you said,:
Alright, I did not mean to post this here, but since people seem a bit lost with Ichigo, GJ and Inoue right now, here is my take on the three. Again, that's my opinion and I'm not claiming I'm right.
It is merely your opinion, and you did say you’re not claiming you are right. You are in another way to summarize it all, ‘You are a fan. Just like everyone here.’
Just like I’m a fan, like everyone here, and my opinions are just equally the same level as us…..not necesarrily correct.
Remember that when you want to correctly me gently. . I’m sure you can, since you used to be a moderator who believed in fairness and morality.
Now, if you excuse me, while I wear the IchiHime shipper goggles.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_JOJO_002-003.jpg (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/JOJO_002-003.jpg)
Yes, I felt like beginning this entry with this spread. It is a bad omen for GJ. I mean, like all the deads Arrancars/Espadas, GJ is looking the same way: the way where death lead them (also it's from the first to be killed to the last and GJ is further away than Aaro, who was the last). To me, it means that GJ will probably die (99.99% chances of happening).
I’m sorry, I have to disagree.
If I’m not mistaken, the words in the spread meant something like, “Overcoming everything, Now looking forward’ There is no such thing as 'Killing everything, now looking forward'
Ichigo didn’t kill the previous arrancars behind him. They were somehow eliminated either by his friends or by the opponents who couldn’t stand failures. The only person/obstacle Ichigo encountered and overcomed was Doldonee, and even then, Doldonii was killed by Zaelopollo’s men.
I believe (feel free to disagree) that at the chapter 273, where the cover picture is, Kubo indicates to us that that’s what Ichigo planned to do…..go in Huenco Mundo, sneak in if possible, get Orihime and get the hell out as soon as possible.
Kubo could have drawn the picture of wonderous, glorified Aizen Sousuke in front of Ichigo but he didn’t. Instead he only draw one Espada, Grimmjaw in front of Ichigo. Remember, at the previous chapter, eventhough it’s so lacklustred reunion, he found her. So, the original plan now is get Orihime out of the pithole (Huenco Mundo) as soon as possible.
The only obvious person that is standing on the way is Grimmjaw. No Ulquiorra, no Yammy, and certainly no Aizen Sousuke. You have to give some space to the boy, Kurosaki Ichigo…..he’s just so dumb and short-sighted.
Everyone lately complained that Ichigo was so emotionless, and that they expected more from him and his fight with GJ. But I think it may have a very rational explanation. Let's try to understand how Ichigo is working.
Not everybody. In the forum which I frequent popped in, people there were partying, making poodle dances, pretty much hyped up over the progression of Huenco Mundo. While some people complain/fant/brag over the ‘emotionless’ Ichigo is…..others looked at it differently, in a sense the ‘emotionless’ Ichigo had never really happened anywhere else but there. Because Ichigo, as usual had always been passionate over everything…..including defending the poor homeless ghost girl, the ghost boy in the park, Don Kanonji’s stupid behavioural act, Ishida’s inconsiderate behaviour, Ganju’s stupid taunts that made him behave like Ichigo, putting that frown face and passion.
Could it be….the very emotionless, sad face Ichigo is wearing was because he lost the sun? The world is down and unlively when there is no sun?
Oh, by the way, some guys here just focused on the ‘emotionless’ face, while others….well they see it overall. There are other emotions Ichigo sported throughout the whole Huenco Mundo, like that smile {too bad, it’s reserved for Neru} or perhaps that determined, frown look Ichigo gave to Grimmjaw (some say it’s love, I agree)
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch279-18.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch279-18.png) http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch279-19.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch279-19.png)
This is Ichigo in ch279. I think those two pages are crucial to explain Ichigo's behaviour afterwards. He first say: "I'm... not fighting to crush you".
There is a little hesitation, but he doesn't lie; this is what he thinks. There is no close-up to his mouth, and he's not hesitating too much. But then GJ gets mad at him and shouts: "Say it! Say you want to kill me! I sliced up your friend! So you want to kill me by tearing me apart!" Ichigo's reaction is one of surprise; the lines around his head, and his eyes (that become so round and tiny) show this. But why is he surprised exactly? I've theorized that maybe it was because he didn't think that GJ would catch that (and yes, I still believe that it's true because he didn't reply and deny it). However, someone commented that it was maybe because Ichigohimself didn't know the truth that GJ is saying: he wants to kill GJ because he nearly killed Rukia. That is something he has to face in battle, this first intent to kill.
But Ichigo is Ichigo; he's someone who doesn't want to kill, no matter what. In short, he's conflicted between two deepest desires. The first one that is written all over him (to not kill) and the second one that may make lose himself (to kill GJ).
May I ask you Syn,….. Who would you rather believe, would you believe the person as he said to be(Ichigo), or another person (Grimmjaw) who is saying, ‘No you are lying, you are…..”
I’ll put it in a easier term for you….oh btw, I’m going to say that the translation you are going on doesn’t make sense, very jagged; but I’ll humor you anyway.
Ichigo: I’m not fighting to crush you.
Grimmjaw: NO, NO, NO, DON’T SAY LIKE THAT. SAY THIS>> I’WANT TO KILL YOU. I’m the one who sliced up your friend (it can be plural/singular….and even if it’s singular, some people thought it was her….Grimmjaw see her again the second time, unsliced). So you want to kill me by slicing apart.
When I read this portion, Grimmjaw’s speech, the first thing that comes into my mind is…..Is that guy (Grimmjaw) really cuckoo, or just…..stupid? No offense to you, but I rather believe in Ichigo when he said that he wasn’t looking forward in crushing Grimmjaw, on the pretense of rescuing Inoue.
Grimmjaw saying that the bolded and underlined part…..I just think every normal person(arrancar/shinigamis/human person) are not able to read and speak out what’s on the mind of another person. Especially if that person is not Inoue Orihime.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_bleach-ch280-03.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/bleach-ch280-03.png)
This is Ichigo in ch280. GJ is still very angry and says: "seems you really don't have any intention of killing me... you pathetic bastard." to which Ichigo replies "... what'd you say?" with a very determinated face.
Apparently…..the reminder that Grimmjaw sliced nakama Rukia to pieces didn’t do much into putting the killing instinct in Ichigo. That’s why Grimmjaw is so very angry.
I wonder why……..
I don't think Ichigo would actually reply to the insult thrown by GJ which means that he's actually replying to the first affirmation... denying it.
I’m impressed. I don’t know how you do it but you just did it. The quoted sentence above, just didn’t make any sense regardless of how many times I read it. What do you mean by you not thinking Ichigo would actually reply the insult by Grimmjaw by denying it?
And I didn’t know that Ichigo’s “What did you say?” means ‘denying’. I thought it was common sense and appropriate for Kubo to set Ichigo to say “What did you say?” when Grimmjaw called him a bastard.
I’m impressed at the complicating conclusion you made by just ‘What did you say?’ to be deny.
Impressive.
So between the end of ch279 and the beginning of chapter 280 (this is the third page), he understood his desire to kill GJ. And the fact that he's replying shows that he decided which road he would take
Okay….so you say that Ichigo understood his desire to kill GJ in the beginning of chapter 280. The fact that he’s replying ‘What did you say?’ showed that he decided which road he would take.
But, we all know (everybody knows) that Ichigo didn’t wear his Vaizard Mask, in the beginning. He only wore the Vaizard mask at the last page of chapter 280.
He needed the Vaizard Mask to be able to kill Grimmjaw.
And may I add on, that Ichigo donned the Vaizard mask, only after when he saw Grand Cero was about to hit Orihime.
Did he decide which road he would take, before Grimmjaw had to resort to releasing Grand Cero, on Orihime AND Ichigo AND Neru?
So, what's up with Ichigo in chapter 281? This fight, as noticed earlier, is very passionless, emotionless, angerless, unlike Ichigo's fights against Renji and Byakuya (or even his fight with GJ in the 230 chapters). I think the answer is to seek within Ichigo
I so agree with you, it’s passionless, emotionless, angerless. Yes, the whole thing about Ichigo swifting into bankai was nothing but a slow smooth motion, the landing on the ground breaking underneath him….they are just lacklustred.
But I look at it in this way, that instead of being the usual Kurosaki Ichigo, who is nothing but hot-air inside and outside, he’s becoming someone who’s silently determined inside (No wonder you guys cannot see anything from the outside).
Don’t you think that’s a good character development?? From the beginning, the boy who only knows how to yell, shout, lose temper frown lines and twitching temple veins and funny pouts…..becomes a man, who is few words, and smile.
I think it’s a good character development. ^___^.Among all the characters portrayed, I think Ichigo’s changed drastically by mellowing down, he’s less irritating, he’s focused on going towards Orihime, to save her…..he has become an adult.
I’m so happy. Participating this discussion has made me realized that rescuing Orihime has made Ichigo an adult.
As I said earlier, Ichigo is someone who is sweet inside. It's in his character, written all over him; Ichigo doesn't *kill*. He's someone who shows mercy to his ennemy. However, this is GJ we're talking about; a blood and battleseek, merciless enemy who nearly killed Rukia twice already. This is someone he *needs* to kill, whatever it takes. And Ichigo is very aware of that fact; but what killing GJ means is more than revenge up to this point. It means that he'll lose a part of himself, will scar himself (like Rukia was scarred) and on top of that, he's probably afraid that it will give more power to his hollow side.
That is precisely why Ichigo needs to be cold. He needs to be detached from this fight, to dissociate himself with his intent in order to be able to continue his journey. The fact that this is so un-Ichigo to be cold and not passionate or angered in a battle point towards that fact (I discount the earlier fight against Grand Fisher because I think Ichigo has grown a lot since then and learned what to die/to kill meant; I'd even say that he didn't really intent to kill GF anymore after saving Rukia). He's like this because his intent is to kill; if it was another fight where Ichigo wanted to prove something or protect someone, no problem, he'd be angered and passionate. However, GJ knows very well why Ichigo wants to kill him; he doesn't need a picture and even told Ichigo the truth. He put him in front of a wall and forced him to open his eyes. GJ forced Ichigo to deja his chocolate aqui already and because he lost his sweetness, all that's left is coldness and intent to kill.
Yes, Grimmjaw forced Ichigo to leave his sweetness….only after Grimmjaw ‘accidentally’ aimed GRAND CERO on Orihime, …..Ichigo MASKED.
You don’t seem to be expounding the above sentence, do you? That Grimmjaw forced Ichigo to take up his mask(the one thing Grimmjaw wanted….Ichigo to be able and want to kill him) only, and only after Grimmjaw ‘accidentally’ missed GRAND CEROING on Orihime.
Do you agree with me that Grimmjaw purposefully or accidentally aimed Grand Cero on Orihime?
Moving onto Inoue and her godlike powers and pathetism (sorry Inoue fans, but for someone who wanted to fight by Ichigo's side, having Ichigo to tell her to use her protection shield is really a let down; this is MY opinion and whatever you say won't change this so don't argue this point with me). I think Kubo's intent is not to make her grow like he did with Rukia during the SS arc; if anything she's far, very far away from this. I think that Kubo needs to have her weak mentally for two things:
-she has godly powers so she needs to be weak mentally so that she wouldn't kill the entire cast of villains
-he needs her weak mentally so that she can be easily manipulated by Aizen and Ulquiorra
I don't think this rescue can be successful; if anything, Aizen won't let her go. She's been only there for two days, that would be a bit ridiculous and pointless. For her character, she needs to stay in HM (to grow differently from the others and embrace a darker path too). She already began to change; she shows that her faith in Ichigo is not so high after all (she doubts that he can win) and she's scared of him. She's like a 2 years old kid (Nell?) that Ichigo needs to reassure. If anything, she's greatly shaken and her reaction towards Ulq (I swear this was a guilty look she had when he looked at her) show that she begun to change already. Ichigo is straying farther away from the prince charming she imagined he was.
If possible, I’d like if you to keep Orihime comments in the discussion whether Ichigo will sharpen his killing instincts towards Grimmjaw. The words you used are very negative, prompting a lot of people to stand for Inoue’s sake.
Knowing that kind of Orihime’s comments would provoke a lot of defense and retaliations from others…..please keep it in other places meant for those who don’t like Orihime as a character.
Thank you. Oh, btw, Syn ….I’m only countering your discussion. I haven’t made my own long essays as to Ichigo leaving his chocolate. Perhaps I should.
I'd look forward to future discussion about Ichigo and Grimmjaw, but not on Orihime, since we clearly don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to Orihime.
Riekie
07-04-2007, 11:51 AM
I am very sorry Manfan, but this thread is about Ichigo, Grimmjow..and yes, Orihime. We are all entitled to give our opinion due to recent developments. Everyone knows that we have to leave the bashing etc. etc. behind but then again..that's common sense.
If you don't want to discuss Orihime in this thread then I suggest you post your comments elsewhere. Sorry..but this thread is about these 3.
Emi-Shimizu
07-04-2007, 12:01 PM
Quite a long post manfan.
About the spread:
Do u see who's behind Ichigo?
Cuz i do.All the Arrancar that has been killed/defeated actually.
And the reason why only GJ is in front of Ichigo is simple.
Ichigo is focusing at GJ ONLY.He is his main opponent right now.
This fight with GJ is really important for Ichigo.And i wrote the reason why in my previous post.
I am not completely disagreeing with you manfan.I don't know whats in Kubo-sans head.He likes to make us surprised.
Oh and i hope GJ will be defeated,not killed,since i want him to live on,long and happily.Thats all folks,i quess.
And i am posting this,wearing pink,funky Ichi/Ruki glasses with Chappies xD
I would rather want Ichigo to just leave Orihime behind,but the manga would be boring then.I have wrote my thoughts about Ori in my previous post.I don't want to think about her anymore,everything has been said.Everything she can do now is whispering Kurosaki-kun with the fear in her eyes.I quess she will look like a panda in the upcoming chapters ^__^
spacecat
07-06-2007, 11:04 AM
Ok from now on anyone baiting a flame/ship war's posts will just be deleted, it's a decent thread so I'm giving it eternal life. Say what you want but I will not tolerate flamey posts, if you disagree with someone fine but say it in a nice way.
Mhm new chapter:
Hime is still standing there and needs to be
protected again by Ichigo. I feel sorry for him, because he doesn´t
deserve such a look from Hime; he tries to assure her safety after all.
I can understand that she´s scared, but she doesn't seem to regain
control over her horror that easily; I mean Ichigo´s not turning
into a monster or anything; he´s control over his inner hollow
at the moment. It´s just a mask....>_<
I´m looking forward to seeing what his Hollow transformation in front of Inoue will trigger in her character development.
This makes a lot of sense. I also think Grimm will die.
debbiechan
07-06-2007, 09:03 PM
There are a few ways this story could go but I'm certain that all ways will lead to character development, growth, and maybe some surprising revelations for both Ichigo and Orihime. Given Kubo's love for parallels I looked there. Ichigo is part Hollow. Orihime? Like Syn, I'll look at reasons Orihime is being so stunned and weak from the author's POV.
1
Orihime will indeed grow up--but since her change can't be as dramatic as Ichigo's (after all we've got that mask to cue us in on how our main character is doing), the difference between her current behavior and later behavior has to be dramatic. People grow in character step by step in RL, and so far, Kubo has done a great job of showing a character degenerate, but when Orihime's regains herself, it will be quick and there will be fireworks. After all, unlike RL girls who doubt themselves, Orihime has special powers.
2. Ichigo will be a dark threatening presence in HM and he'll have to recover his goodness. Orihime will be a messed up, emotionally scarred person in HM and she'll have to recover a will to fight, maybe even killing intent, at which point she may understand Ichigo better.
3.
The relationship between Orihime and Ichigo needs to be looked at. Don't moan. The reason she's standing there--she has to see Ichigo change. That may, later, inspire her to change as well. Also, the IchiOri relationship has to be resolved because it has to answer the romantic power of chapter 237. It's make it or break it time as far as romance goes. But whether it goes one way or the other :) the relationship between Orihime and Ichigo will have grown.
No one goes through terrors like these without becoming closer. And I, an IchiRuki shipper, very much want Ichigo and Orihime to have a good relationship because as of now, from my POV, he totally ignores her(bad Ichigo) and she's obsessed with him (down, Orihime, sit).
As for Grimmjow--I predict no death. I think he' will appear to be killed by Ichigo but the crazy guy is either going to be resurrected or he'll pop up later out of the blue with some Kubo wild explanation for it.
If anyone's going to finish off Grimmjow, it will be the Arrancar who are disgusted with him for losing.
Killing GJ thoroughly would take care of Ichigo's conflict too soon--once you kill you can't go back to being a non-killer--and we know how Kubo (or his editors) are dragging out this arc.
Emi-Shimizu
07-07-2007, 07:21 AM
Hmm...
About Orihime:yea,she is stunned,she is scared,and she has no idea whats going on.Ichigo gave her a glance,but it certainly wasn't a romantic scene.He was worried about her,and i think he knows that she is completely confused now.But i must agree-Orihimes and Ichigos characters are developing.
(I worte it in the previous posts too,actually).
No one goes through terrors like these without becoming closer
Or running away scared.It's just about how mentally strong can character be.Ichigo was Orihimes strenght.She was desiring to become strong,because of him.It's clear that Orihime admires Ichigo.But now,it's like seeing a different person.She never knew,that Kurosaki-kun can be like that.Talking about her would go on,and on,and on..
I was really happy when i saw Haribel.She's another person who can disturb a fight.If Aizen is interested in Kurosaki,then they will try to save him somehow if he looses the fight.The same goes for Grimmjow.If he get messed up,then Haribel will start a fight with Ichi certainly.If she is the second,or the third espada,then i think it won't be difficult to lead him straight to Aizen.While Orihime would be ordered to heal GJ.Well if not,then i have another idea.Ya guys remember the fight with Kenpachi?.In the end they were both "dead".Of course,someone appeared right away to save them,ne? xD
As for Grimmjow--I predict no death. I think he' will appear to be killed by Ichigo but the crazy guy is either going to be resurrected or he'll pop up later out of the blue with some Kubo wild explanation for it.
Ya know,debbiechan,you gave me hope xD
Ps.Oh,and i was talking about those instincts to fight,manfan,not those to protect,or kiss and flee ;)
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