Making Babies in Soul Society

[furato]

Before anything else, I'd like to kindly ask people not to post any... visual guides to making babies in Soul Society. :o

From the fireworks omake (ch. 12.5), we learnt from Hitsugaya and Aizen's conversation that only nobles have real birthdays, because they are born in Seireitei as opposed to Rukongai souls who are formerly pluses in the human world.

We were also introduced to noble families: Soi Fong has brothers, a father and a grandmother; Ukitake is the eldest of seven siblings; Byakuya and Kira are shown praying to their respective parents' grave; the Shiba siblings and the Oomaeda family, both families' members bear resemblance to one another (except for Oomaeda Mareyo).

So, although we don't know the mechanism, the nobles in Seireitei have the ability to reproduce.

It got me curious regarding the Rukongai shinigami. Does the acquisition of shinigami powers enable them of reproducing, or are they, in human terms, infertile?

If the former applies, then the statement "nobles are born in Seireitei" would be anulled unless it means "if you are born in Seireitei you are considered a noble". This means if two Rukongai shinigamis have children, they will automatically be forming a new noble family. But somehow, Hitsugaya's apathetic delivery make it more logical to me if the latter is true.

The latter brings more gravity to Byakuya's marriage to Hisana because, in the eyes of the family, he is bringing an end to the Kuchiki line because she will not be able to bear any heir. It also ties in to the statement "vice-captain is equal to a noble" that Ikkaku told Renji (ch. 0 side-B), because Ikkaku didn't say "vice-captain is a noble". The implied meaning is that even though Komamura and Zaraki are two of the highest ranked officers in Gotei 13, they are still not considered nobles. (edit: the last sentence is disproved as Saffire mentions that in SOULs is listed two ways to become a noble, first is being born in SS and second is become a shinigami)

Of course Kubo probably never have and never will establish any shinigami reproductive system. But what do you think?




Addendum:
An anomaly to the Soul Society familial system is Rukia and Hisana. They resemble each other, and at a point of time they were together, when early in the series it was established that the chance of meeting your family is very slim even if you die together (ch. 76)

The thought gave birth to my pet crack theory that Rukia and Hisana are actually members of the Royal family who somehow got estranged and ended up in Rukongai. This also means irony to Byakuya's vow because he never broke a rule in the first place, neener neener neener.

[Ness]

The thought gave birth to my pet crack theory that Rukia and Hisana are actually members of the Royal family who somehow got estranged and ended up in Rukongai. This also means irony to Byakuya's vow because he never broke a rule in the first place, neener neener neener.

I was about to say something similar to your addendum (before I even read it)! I was about to say that Rukia was a baby when she and Hisana were together. Could it possible that Hisana and Rukia were exiled together from a royal family? But like you said, it's just a crack theory.

If souls are transferred to Soul Society from the world, are they placed in SS as what they were in the world? If they were placed in SS as what they were in the world, then it's quite interesting that Hisana and Rukia were together even though it's a quite slim chance. But if Hisana and Rukia were souls together in the world, wouldn't a shinigami give a soul burial for each of them separately? I say it is a great miracle to have them appear at the same time and same place after the burial.

But then, it made me think about how Rukia was quite special since Urahara placed a hougyoku in her (ch 178). When did he do this? He probably placed it in her when she was only a baby. I say it is quite a possibility that Hisana and Urahara met. Remember in ch 179 when Byakuya talked about Hisana? He said: "But she could not live there while carrying a child. So she deserted you while you were still a baby... That is what she told me." When Byakuya said "that is what she told me", I felt like he suspected that she was lying.

Or maybe when Hisana abandoned Rukia, Urahara took the chance to embed the hougyoku inside of her. But wouldn't Urahara be exiled already? If we have anymore clues on WHEN and WHERE Urahara embed this into her, I bet we'd get a clear picture of the reproduction and the way things work in Soul Society.

I believe that I'm getting a bit off topic, but I think it's quite important to say. XP

[Geta Boshi]

Souls in Seireitei can copulate . The noble houses are a testament to that . It may be also true for souls in Soul Society

[furato]

Ness, thank you for the post, though as you said it was off-topic. The explanation regarding soul placement in Rukongai was from Hironari in chaper 76 as below (manga-rain scanlation):

http://i14.tinypic.com/4lj9keu.png

So to even know where your family is, you need to get tickets at the same time. But that doesn't mean you get placed near them, and Rukongai has 320 districts. For Rukia and Hisana to be together is a very, very, very special occasion.

Geta Boshi, thanks for the post too. Copulating is one thing, but reproducing? So far, there has been no appearance of an offspring of a commoner, both shinigami or alley-dweller. Who knows they're all shooting blanks.



I apologise beforehand for potentially shattering fanfic readers' enjoyment of your Rukongai-shinigami OTP's baby fantasies. :P

[SiSL]

So to even know where your family is, you need to get tickets at the same time. But that doesn't mean you get placed near them, and Rukongai has 320 districts. For Rukia and Hisana to be together is a very, very, very special occasion.


May be it is because baby at that age can't take ticket herself, so had to take ticket together with elder sister :D

[NeoSapien]

I think that the requirement for being capable of reproduction as a spirit is probably possessing some degree of spiritual power, which as we saw with Ichigo gives Pluses much more solidity and requires that they eat in order to replenish their energy.

[Shannon]

(Just to say, but the thumbs up + "Making Babies in Soul Society" = me laughing.)

And I can't say anything else because people above have already said it.

[Primera Espada]

well, remember, only souls with spiritual power can grow.

Anyone else can't.

So, souls without spiritual power can't give birth (as that's a form of growth)

Also, it was stated that anyone who becomes a Shinigami IS a noble (as anyone living inside seretei is a noble) it's just that Renji needed to be a Vice Captain in order to persue Rukia, who is not just a noble, but part of one of the top 3 noble families. She is a noble among nobles.

So yeah, based on all evidence, only those with spiritual power can have kids. Hence why those kids would then also have spiritual power. That makes me wonder, at least a little, if Hisana wasn't telling the truth, and that Rukia was her daughter, not sister. Because the father...
...
...
...
Was Gin

*hides under umbrella*
It explains his crazy fascination with her. And Gin is quite older than her (dispite looks)
There you go. XD

[Syn]

I don't think Hisana had any spiritual power so here goes your theory Primera Espada :p

However, I agree with Neo and you that only souls with spiritual power can have babies in SS ^^ I think a lot of things point towards this evidence (the physical growth being the bigger pointer).

[NeoSapien]

I don't think Hisana had any spiritual power so here goes your theory Primera Espada :p
She was Rukia's sister and she somehow entered the Seireitei and became acquianted with Kuchiki Byakuya. I think it is very likely that Hisana became a Shinigami.

However, I agree with Neo and you that only souls with spiritual power can have babies in SS ^^ I think a lot of things point towards this evidence (the physical growth being the bigger pointer).
Yeah. Though I won't speculate on the issue of aging in Soul Society - that is possibly the secondmost confusing thing about Soul Society. (The most confusing is why everyone speaks Japanese. :cool:)

[Syn]

Lol yeah, aging is very confusing, however, I have my own theory about this oO as in, it's tied with the spiritual power too XD

[furato]

well, remember, only souls with spiritual power can grow.

Anyone else can't.

So, souls without spiritual power can't give birth (as that's a form of growth)

Also, it was stated that anyone who becomes a Shinigami IS a noble (as anyone living inside seretei is a noble) it's just that Renji needed to be a Vice Captain in order to persue Rukia, who is not just a noble, but part of one of the top 3 noble families. She is a noble among nobles.Where is the shinigami = automatic noble thing stated? It's interesting, I might have missed that.
Hitsugaya in the panel in my first post seem to be making a division between "people" from the alleys and "nobles" who are born in Seireitei, but admittedly it can just be out of habit.
On the other hand, there is the V-Jump omake where Oomaeda calls Renji (from Rukongai), Kira (lower-class noble) and Hisagi (dunno what he is) his "commoner lowerclassmen", supporting your "noble among nobles" point.
But then I failed to find the reference for Kira's nobility :S And I confuse myself.

It makes sense about the relationship between growth and spiritual power, so I think that answers why non-shinigami souls are exempted from reproduction. So then the question's left for Rukongai shinigami. And if they can reproduce, dear Kubo-sensei, pls to have RenRuki or GinRan babies thx. On second thought, Gin is probably better not reproducing.

And Shannon, LOL, the title is deliberate but choosing the thumbs-up was not. Now that you said it, it actually looks funny XD

[Guildenstern]

An anomaly to the Soul Society familial system is Rukia and Hisana. They resemble each other, and at a point of time they were together, when early in the series it was established that the chance of meeting your family is very slim even if you die together (ch. 76)

The thought gave birth to my pet crack theory that Rukia and Hisana are actually members of the Royal family who somehow got estranged and ended up in Rukongai. This also means irony to Byakuya's vow because he never broke a rule in the first place, neener neener neener.

Oh god. Here's where I get ready to post some ultimate tl;dr. :eek:

<crack theory>This is my favourite crack theory. It's just so much fun. But before I get into it, a few asides about Hisana:

1. Dollars to donuts 'Hisana' is not her real name. I would bet you glazed donuts even. (In a weird poetic kind of way her name "Crimson Reality" or "Scarlet Truth" --translation depending on who you ask-- was kind of a giveaway...to me anyway...in relation to what she said to him when she died. "The five years I spent with you were like a dream". Just what kind of 'crimson reality' did she feel she had left behind, even just a little, when she gained safety by becoming his wife? tl;dr, I know. XD)
2. She must have had even just a little spiritual power, because she grew after reaching Rukongai. (If I recall correctly, she was kinda smallish in the flashback...of course with Rukia genes you're gonna be short anyway >.>) Considering the size she was when she died in Seireitei, if she was that same size when she abandoned Rukia if you ascribe to the theory that they died in the human world, they had a good....15 year age gap? That's pretty drastic for siblings.
3. As another poster said above, Byakuya's "That's what she told me" comment was pretty interesting. Byakuya, who was nearly a captain and had probably served in the Gotei 13 for many years would have been able to catch the idiosyncracies in her story "Oh, we died in the human world and magically got sent together and ended up together in Seireitei even though that's virtually impossible www" but probably wasn't willing to call her on it, as he loved her and didn't want to push her.

In short, Hisana, you are almost entirely full of it. But I love you anyway, poor thing. ._.;;

It kinda ties into one of our Theories of WTF (tm). Why would a pair of little daughters of the Royal Family be cast adrift in a rough and horrible place like Rukongai is a hole in the theory that needs plugging. Ros and I had been kind of juggling around some theories, and so far the favourite is that the King and everyone up in the King's realm is already dead (and has been long dead), and that these two were either smuggled out or managed to get away. Hisana perhaps took an injury in the struggle that led to the illness that killed her. Hisana changes her name, gives away or abandons her sister in the hopes that she'll fare better than Hisana can manage to do and voila! Instant camoflauge. Nobody would suspect a pair of Rukongai street brats with short-cut hair and raggy, patched kimonos of being renegade princesses. (Except Byakuya apparently has an eye for Quality (tm), the snotty aesthete. XD)

Hisana would naturally never tell, because if it was an inside job she'd be taking her life in her hands as she's surrounded by shinigami, and furthermore she can't find her little sister. Revealing that kind of information (even if she were ever so tempted) could have gotten Rukia killed if it fell in the wrong hands. And Rukia was just a little baby, she wouldn't have remembered anything.

...Which segues into our cute friend Urahara. If you need a place to store your Hougyoku, and you've got these two sisters, which one are you gonna pick: The older one who is possibly hurt and will remember you later, or the baby who isn't damaged and won't remember jack, who is easily malleable? >.> (This is of course assuming that Rukia and Hisana, both being from the Royal Family, had/has some kind of quality that allows them to contain it.)

Also Isshin totally needs to be ex-Royal Guard. You know that he totally knows about everything that's going on and just went into hiding in the human world, like a undercover FBI informant. >_<; </crack theory>

...I guess I should make an on-topic response to this post too.

I always figured that anyone with high enough spiritual power in SS would be able to have babies. It's just generally only the nobles are able to conjure up enough of it to create families. When you become a captain or a vice-captain I guess that means you're considered a 'noble' by default because you have enough power to make your own family if you play it right.

[Ness]

Guildenstern, I'm making a thread about Rukia and Hisana... Because that is an interesting theory! XD

Onward!!!

Back to topic, I say Alley-guys are sterile and Shinigamis can make babies.

[yahoosoda]

Interesting discussion, I don't think that it takes spiritual power to copulate. IMHO, the nobles of Seireitei are similar to the portrayal of the Judeo Christian Angels. The angels are special souls created by the Creator and they can copulate. Human souls which end up in Heaven are of different type than Angels. It make sense to keep the Angels in the heirarchy of beings since it provides a logical progression to the souls. There will be no order if we can just ascend our value as a spirit to that of a god's simply because of the strength of spiritual power...and if we are going to follow Judeo Christian beliefs this is the story of Lucifer. I think the same thing follows in Bleach.

As for Rukia and Hisana, what if these are pure souls sent to the human world to protect them or save them. (Once again following Judeo Christian beleifs). They are goddesses made flesh until they met an untimely death in the human world and having died as humans go through the path of dead human souls. But Rukia, being the only one who survived, will go through some kind of ascension of the soul to claim her birth right.

Although what about Isshin?

Isshin being a part of the SS before and perhaps a person of high ranking, was able to come to the human world and copulate. It is possible that Isshin is also a noble in his own right but what reasons did he have for coming to the human world?

When he came to the human world did he age? At the very least we know for sure that Isshin has been in the human world for 15/16 years but during that time Rukia is already at SS. Since there is little recent memory of Isshin in the SS is it possible that he retains a certain level of immortality due to the strength of his spirit? In anime world terms, could Isshin be like Yosho from Tench Muyo who is in many ways an immortal due to his heritage? Ichigo and his sisters, like Tenchi, having the same spiritual strength due to their lineage?

[Syn]

Not really, Kubo's world is more tied with the Buddhist vision as shown plenty of times. So your vision is flawed at first Yahoosoda :)

[Geta Boshi]

One thing which recently troubled me was reincarnation I felt Souls die get reincarnated as humans hence Kaien --- > ichi . But according to Kaien souls die turn into reishi . Reincarnation can be of lower form ( not humans ) BUT Reishi ??? . I confused about death in Bleach

EDIT Know this is serious topic but every time I see the thumbs up and title I cant help but smiling ^^

[yahoosoda]

Not really, Kubo's world is more tied with the Buddhist vision as shown plenty of times. So your vision is flawed at first Yahoosoda :)

Thanks for the correction Syn ;) Sometimes its difficult to differentiate the concepts that lie within certain anime shows since it appears to borrow from several other concepts.

[Saffire]

EDIT Know this is serious topic but every time I see the thumbs up and title I cant help but smiling ^^I did the exact same thing when I saw this thread a moment ago. It's actually why I read the thread. :p

The SOULs databook lays down two guidelines to becoming a noble in Soul Society. The first way is to be born in Soul Society, the second is to become a Shinigami. Both ways make a person, by default, a noble. Given the first rule though, I think it's obvious that not just anyone can have children.

[Air]

We know that human souls, when they die, goes to Soul Society (Rukongai). And that after some time, these rukongai souls "die" again and reincarnate into newborn babies on the Human World (from SOULs databook).

But the shinigami?
If we take Kaien words literally, they don't reincarnate and when they die they simply turn into reishi (spiritual particles).

Maybe, when someone from Rukongai try to become a shinigami (Rukia, Renji, Hitsugaya, Kenpachi, Ikkaku, etc.), they must make a HARD choice. Like, stopping their own reincarnation cycle, being no more human.. and living their FINAL life as something completely different: a Shinigami.

This way, they acquire powers, a potentially millenarian life, wealth (living in the Seireitei like nobles).. and probably the possibility to make babies. But when they die.. that's forever.

[furato]

I did the exact same thing when I saw this thread a moment ago. It's actually why I read the thread. :p

The SOULs databook lays down two guidelines to becoming a noble in Soul Society. The first way is to be born in Soul Society, the second is to become a Shinigami. Both ways make a person, by default, a noble. Given the first rule though, I think it's obvious that not just anyone can have children.
All you people fall for the bait! XD

Born in Soul Society, or in Seireitei specifically?
It does seem to support the notion that only nobles can have children.
And I gotta revise the point in the first post regarding shinigami =/= automatic noble.

[Syn]

I did the exact same thing when I saw this thread a moment ago. It's actually why I read the thread. :p

The SOULs databook lays down two guidelines to becoming a noble in Soul Society. The first way is to be born in Soul Society, the second is to become a Shinigami. Both ways make a person, by default, a noble. Given the first rule though, I think it's obvious that not just anyone can have children.
Thank you Saffire. I've been saying that for ages and nearly no one trusted me, while I recalled clearly that it had been said when SOULs has been out.

[Sarada]

But then, it made me think about how Rukia was quite special since Urahara placed a hougyoku in her (ch 178). When did he do this? He probably placed it in her when she was only a baby.

Wasn't it clear that he placed the Hougyoku in the special gigai he made for her in the first chapters of Bleach?

[Syn]

Urahara placed the Hougyoku in Rukia while she was a baby. Aizen explains that plenty.

[Sarada]

What chapter was this mentioned?

Check Chapter 175.

Aizen explain Urahara hid the Hougyoku within Rukia, he never mentioned when he hid it in her. Wouldn't you agree he got the perfect opportunity to do so when she needed his help with the gigai?

[Saffire]

All you people fall for the bait! XD

Born in Soul Society, or in Seireitei specifically?
It does seem to support the notion that only nobles can have children.
And I gotta revise the point in the first post regarding shinigami =/= automatic noble.I can't answer that question definitively, since the OP is on BF and it's been a while since I read that. I want to say Soul Society, which makes a certain amount of sense because (I think) low-rank nobles don't always live in Seireitei, and (in theory) non-nobles with spiritual power usually end up as Shinigami anyways since Shinigami live better. If spirit power is required to have children, usually it wouldn't be an issue since Rukongai citizens normally don't have it.

I'm at work right now, but if no Japanese speakers come around and clarifies I'll try to dig through my source information once I'm home and see what I can come up with.

Edit@Sarada: Aizen says that "by the time I'd discovered the Hougyoku's location [inside Rukia], you had already gone missing" or something along those lines. Which is why I (and many others) say that Urahara couldn't have done it when he gave Rukia the gigai.

[Llama]

Here's my explanation based on the official database, the manga, and my own thoughts.

Shinigami do soul burials so the spirits can go to Soul Society. Shinigami purify hollows so the spirits can go to Soul Society. What happens to souls that are eaten by hollows? This hasn't been answered yet but I believe they either are gone for good or when the hollow is purified they also go to Soul Society along with the purified soul. Sora getting eaten by hollows only happened in the anime. He became a hollow because of his loneliness. And it seems hollows can purify themselves if they get a hold of their senses and have a Shinigami's zanpakuto in their hands. Hollows purified in Soul Society are already in Soul Society so they just turn back into spirits. Hollows that have committed mortal sins in real life go to Hell. Hollows mainly reside in Hueco Mundo. When spirits die in Soul Society they become spiritons as stated by Kaien. "When we die, we disintegrate, and we become spiritons and inhabit Soul Society." Regular souls, after living in Soul Society for 60 years become spiritons and are then reincarnated back into the living world. But if a regular soul in the Soul Society somehow obtains spirit powers and becomes a Shinigami then they live for a very long time. If a Shinigami who was a regular soul dies then they become spiritons and are then reincarnated back into the living world. Souls that are born within the Soul Society, the Seireitei to be exact, are born nobles. Are they born as babies or in adult form? That's still a mystery, but I'd say probably both. This would explain how the first of the Shinigami came into being. When these noble spirits die though and become spiritons, they do not reincarnate back to the living world. I believe over time, how much time I do not know, those spiritons return to the Seireitei and form new noble spirits. Normal spirits and hollows can't reproduce. Shinigami can probably reproduce. Same with Vaizards but their off spring aren't born with hollows or born hollow since you can't be born with or as one. Maybe even Arrancar can since a part of them is Shinigami. But if they could, their off spring wouldn't be born hollows or have hollows with in for same reasons as Vaizards. New spirits are made of unused spiritons and are put down to earth in new babies. The rest of the spiritons is what makes up Soul Society. And so the cycle continues. I wouldn't say Soul Society is a true heaven but maybe the King's Dimension is, only time will tell.

* A soul which has passed a "fixed period" in Soul Society will eventually reincarnate back to the Living World.
And from what I've heard it's 60 years. But I could be wrong.

Here's a link to the official data books of Bleach: http://www.mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616

And if you can't find what I said in my theory in the data books or manga then it's my own thoughts filling in the gaps.
Since I believe Shinigami can reproduce but normal spirits can't(Which leads me to believe Byakuya could have never had made children with Hisana). And yes, someone could be adopted into nobility but they wouldn't be pure blood nobility. So when that soul dies then they become spiritons and are then reincarnated back into the living world. I also believe if a non-noble and a noble had a child and it died, it would become spiritons and are then reincarnated back into the living world since it's not a pure blood noble. Though I could be wrong with that. Maybe if non-noble and a noble had a child and it died, it would become spiritons but not reincarnated back into the living world. But over time, how much time I do not know, those spiritons return to the Seireitei and form new noble spirits. And this is how you get the lesser noble houses.

And there you have it.

[nightshift]

Maybe...reproduction in Soul Society requires a certain amount of spirit power? That would eliminate most of Rukongai from having kids, and the notion that only shinigami and nobles can reproduce would be valid.

Side note: maybe Urahara really got banned from Soul Society because he marketed a pill to raise Rukongai citizen's spirit power just high enough a level to reproduce called viag-

Ok I'm done.

[shinebunny]

I'd say this is the kind of confusing question we'll probably never get a halfway canon answer for. Shounen manga's priority does not exactly lie in explaining the mechanics of how soul reaper babies are made...

Maybe...reproduction in Soul Society requires a certain amount of spirit power? That would eliminate most of Rukongai from having kids, and the notion that only shinigami and nobles can reproduce would be valid.


Agreed! This theory sounds the best, taking from these two comments:

well, remember, only souls with spiritual power can grow.

Anyone else can't.

So, souls without spiritual power can't give birth (as that's a form of growth)



(I don't remember where this was said, but it sounds fairly reasonable, I guess. I do clearly recall that only souls with spiritual energy become hungry, so it would make sense that food fuels growth...)


It also ties in to the statement "vice-captain is equal to a noble" that Ikkaku told Renji (ch. 0 side-B), because Ikkaku didn't say "vice-captain is a noble".

This evidence, if you take it in the whole 'baby-making' context, could prove that you can only have a baby not only if you have spiritual power, but if you have enough spiritual power, i.e.copious amounts of spiritual power. Enough for both you and the baby to grow.

Sounds like Ichigo is all set to be a daddy. He'd better be careful...

[furato]

Ah, I had forgotten I made this thread. Somehow the image in the first page changes into a girl... that didn't finish loading because I swiftly edited it for fear that it could be porn or gore. I am paranoid about the internet and weird changes. O_o;
Sounds like Ichigo is all set to be a daddy. He'd better be careful...He'd better be careful not to leak so much reiatsu, if you know what I mean... XD

[sparticus]

He'd better be careful not to leak so much reiatsu, if you know what I mean... XD

Mental image too amusing!!!!! XDDDDDDDDDDDD

I agree with everybody else: high spirit power = ability to repoduce. SS is really more of a cosmic waiting room if you think about it; normal souls are just hanging around, waiting for their number to be called so that they can be cycled back through Earth. *shrugs*

I have a pet theory that human souls with high spirit power are actualy very old souls - souls that have gone through the reincarnation process soooo many times that they've collected enough power to become shinigami, and that shinigami are an evolved state of human souls which exsist outside the normal reincarnation cycle.

Not to say they're not reicarnated though. If Kaien is right, a shinigami basicly becomes one with the Force when they die, which provides fuel for other souls. They're not reincarnated as one piece, they become a part of the whole. :]

It's not all that different than how Arrancar evolve if you think about it - hollows just take a more active role in their progression by cutting out the middle man (reincarnation) and devouring other souls and hollows. XD

Which begs the question: Can Arrancar repoduce? And if they can, are the kids born as arrancar or shinigami?