Immigration [Archive] - Bleach Asylum

beautiful_death

01-14-2008, 05:40 PM

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

- Emma Lazarus, "The New Colossus"

Imagine this: You live in a developing country in which the living conditions are poor, your job barely covers basic needs for your family, the best can't be met for your family, and to boot your government is corrupt. You can a) stick around in a futile effort to expect changes or 2) emigrate to a more prosperous country.

Regardless of your method of emigrating (legal or illegal means), you reach your promised land. Instead of being greeted with open arms, maybe you are met with anti-immigration sentiment and racism. Immigration laws could prevent you from petitioning your family over. The laws may also make it more difficult to become a naturalized citizen. Despite all this, you still go through it, all in the hopes of thriving in an industrial nation.

I present to you a couple of questions. Do you think that immigration hampers your country's economy? Does it dilute the cultural identity of your nation, or does it enrich it?

The reason why I ask is because this is a huge issue in the United States, especially in California. I want to know everyone's two cents on this issue.

Rain

01-14-2008, 06:42 PM

I am all for immigration. No country, but especially the united states, would be what it is without an immigrants.

immigrants should be greated with open arms, and automatically be given the chance to become us citizens

one thing i do agree with, is that any immigrant should learn that countries language. Its said that many mexican immigrants do not learn english, and although english is not the us's national language (we have none officially) they should learn english

but, just saying this is one-sided, those who live in the us should also learn another language.

I myself, am in the process of learning spanish (i think im close to being at around a very low fluent level:p) because this way, i can communicate with an immigrant in more than one language:cool:

earthforge

01-14-2008, 06:52 PM

I think your questions are a bit unscientific, therefore I cannot really answer them. They are directed to our fear culture.

What troubles me most about immigration is how the immigrants are never set through the process of getting a citizenship immediatley.

Yes, I acknowledge we have an immigration issue. And more fences and/or border patrols won't work. The people who wish to immigrate have their heart set on it. Why? You have your oddballs of wanting to run away from the country, but mostly it is those that believe that because once they get to America they don't have to pay taxes. Afterall, they are not a citizen if they don't go through the process.

Struggle for the Cheap

America also has a mentality surrounding illegal immigrants. It is the idea that if they employ the illegal immigrants, then it is cheaper. They have to pay white workers a certain salary because they are legal citizens, but they don't have to do that with illegal immigrants. Thus as more illegal immigrants come in, more white people are displaced from their job. Now, the Bush administration uses this fact to strike fear into the country. This partially explains our fear culture today. But the Bush administration haven't taken any steps to stopping it.

My Solution:

I suggest that the moment an illegal immigrant goes into America, and when he tries to bum off a job start him on the path to citizenship. After he becomes a citizen, he'll have to pay the same taxes we all have to. That might scare him back into Mexico. But the majority of illegal immigrants have been taking advantage of our cheapness.

This has nothing to do with cultural identity or economy, but it has everything to do with being cheap.

Bleu

01-14-2008, 09:33 PM

Touchy issue.

If you live in the united states then you are a decendant of an immigrant. unless of course your blood is 100% red. so its not bad to let them in. I think that theres a difference betwen flooding in like a tidal wave and just seeking a better life. For example, mexico.. stop going over the border. To be honest im all for a giant wall to keep them out, and its not because im prejudice or anything, its just that this much immigration isnt good for the economy, but yet, no immigration also isnt good.

Immigrations really not that extreme of a problem here in France like it is in the unite states, but there still needs to be boundaries put in place.. what they are without getting too inhumane i dont know, but something needs to be done.

*adds on*

Id like to add that i too, am an imigrant. i immigrated to several countries. But the thing is, i had proper travel documentation and birth certificates ect.

I also think another important thing is language. When i go somewhere, i take the initiative to learn the language. I think its really unecceptable to live in a country and not attempt to learn the language

Spartan27

01-14-2008, 10:53 PM

I hate this question because I feel like there are good points on both sides. I have been trying to find my own personal opinion on the topic but I just can't seem to get it right. I don't know if there is a single right answer for it. Frustrating.

Could you at least try? If not, why post here?

- FH

Riekie

01-16-2008, 12:46 PM

Hmm...tough subject. I see the pros and cons really. I think the immigrants leaving their country for a better one (because there's a war going on in their own) can come here without a doubt. The ones coming here just to live off my tax money, do nothing, don't learn my language (it's not that hard if you're willing) just cause trouble (sometimes) etc. etc. should get the hell out. Especially the ones whining that their own country is soo much better than the one they're living in and getting things for free right now...get the hell out of here then!

Hiraeth

01-16-2008, 01:19 PM

I'm of the opinion that immigration is a good thing, especially when the immigrant is leaving to make a better life for themselves, but in Australia the general population seems to be terrified that immigrant workers will steal their jobs. I personally believe that the jobs that immigrants with little to no education and grasp of English would be going for are not the jobs that Australian citizens are currently fighting over. I also believe that if people are in real danger of being replaced, then it isn't the fault of the person replacing them, but of the person being replaced, who obviously isn't pulling their weight.

As was mentioned regarding America, everyone here is an immigrant, yes I'm including the indigenous people, because they only got here 40,000 years ago. Lots of people in the town I'm from are refugees, I was in a sport team with a girl whose family had fled the Congo, and I was in school with a boy from Kurdistan, in Iraq. These people are fleeing genuinely horrible situations to have a better life here. What makes me really really mad is when people are refused entry to this country because our government doesn't recognize them as refugees. In some cases this may be for as shallow a reason as there is no visible conflict happening in the place they've come from, and so they may be sent back. Some people fight so hard to get into this country and are then treated like scum before being sent home. I don't think it's right or fair and in situations like that, the Aussie ideal of 'a fair go' is simply a joke.

I do realise that this is probably a really naive view, not taking into consideration any of the economic pros and cons of immigrants, but it's how I feel and I'm sticking to it. I'll probably edit my post later to make it more coherent because I'm incredibly tired right now.

Also I'm now reminded of 'The Prayer of the Refugee' by Rise Against. Good song that.

speedphantom

01-16-2008, 02:46 PM

I think that more immigrants should be allowed into the richer countries most definitely yes. However you can't just open the flood gates and let them all in at once. The infratstructure needs to develop in order to cater for larger numbers of people. Only then can it truly be feasible.

Its very easy to say let them all in! But its just not that simple.

The previous Australian government under John Howard put a negative spin on refugees by calling them queue jumpers, those who cheat the other people who have applied for Australian citizenship the legal way. I'm sure they all have plenty of time to wait, since YES! That's what Australian immigration is about. Waiting and waiting.......they really don't like letting people in here.

The people in the "queue" aren't going to die tomorrow so I'm sure they can wait many years. These illegal immigrants, perhaps some being genuine refugees some not, get put into detention centres in the middle of the desert, its a prison basically. Where they're held until their applications are processed..........painfully slowly. These are some of the gravest human rights abuse that are happening in the world today and in Australia.

The later policy was to intercept the boats with illegal immigrants and ship them off to Christmas Island or other small islands and do the same imprisonment. The immigrants could be stuck in these prisons for over 5 years. Its ridiculous.

Hopefully the new Rudd government will bring about a change to all this.

emoloz

01-16-2008, 08:56 PM

This is an issue am kind of all over the place.

I don't mind it if they have a valid reason to be in another country. For example War, someone's after them and their family or their house and home have been destroyed and they have nothing. Fair enough, that is a reason to be away from your own country.

I also like them because they give the multi-culture to a society which is one thing i really love about the world and how it is changing. It gives us more ideas, more choice and more freedom to explore and be what we want to be and not stick to old fashion ways. Yeah don't get me wrong some old ways are great but I like culture and all that so it makes sense for me to like it.

The ones that get me are the ones who think they can live off the benefits the government provides and the free health care. This is one issue i am praying our next government tackles because it really is a pain when there are people working long hours just to allow their children a meal on the table while some are just sitting around, watching tv and doing basically nothing at all to earn money.

Another thing that ticks me is the government make out they don't have a clue what to do with and saying all this ID stuff and patrols and what not will get rid of the illegal ones.

Nah their lying. The governments love the "free illegal" immigrants really. You probably wonder why i say this? It's because they take the jobs no one who has been born and bred in this country will take anymore. Solves a little problem which could mean the difference between them being elected and not because people aren't winging the immigrants are our bin men or road sweepers and what not because people know they don't want to take that career option.

Sure not everyone is taking these jobs and this will the biggest step governments will take when they see us all opening the blind eye to the fact there's too many illegals around.

earthforge

01-16-2008, 11:13 PM

I think that more immigrants should be allowed into the richer countries most definitely yes. However you can't just open the flood gates and let them all in at once. The infrastructure needs to develop in order to cater for larger numbers of people. Only then can it truly be feasible

Even America can't do this. It's not as simple as you are suggesting. Also, the reasons why immigrants come illegally are different.

The previous Australian government under John Howard put a negative spin on refugees by calling them queue jumpers, those who cheat the other people who have applied for Australian citizenship the legal way. I'm sure they all have plenty of time to wait, since YES! That's what Australian immigration is about. Waiting and waiting.......they really don't like letting people in here.

Look, it's the same in America. Welcome to the Republican ideal of a fear culture. Solution: Kick them out of power for a good long time.

The people in the "queue" aren't going to die tomorrow so I'm sure they can wait many years. These illegal immigrants, perhaps some being genuine refugees some not, get put into detention centres in the middle of the desert, its a prison basically. Where they're held until their applications are processed..........painfully slowly. These are some of the gravest human rights abuse that are happening in the world today and in Australia.

I do not know of this. in America, they just deport the illegal immigrants regardless of their work status or importance to their neighborhood. But it sounds damned awful.

The later policy was to intercept the boats with illegal immigrants and ship them off to Christmas Island or other small islands and do the same imprisonment. The immigrants could be stuck in these prisons for over 5 years. Its ridiculous.

Sounds that way.

I honestly do not know about Australia. But I do know it has been governed by conservatives up till recently. It was the only country along with America that hadn't gone green up till recently. I must say thank you in that regard, because it was a slap in the face of conservative government here.

Hopefully the new Rudd government will bring about a change to all this.

Hopefully.

beautiful_death

01-17-2008, 03:34 AM

As long as there's a demand for cheap illegal labor and detrimental "free trade" policies are in place, there will always be a flow of undocumented immigrants.

I'll utilize an example in the American context.

Since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) has pretty much destroyed the economic infrastructure of Mexico, there has been an influx of Mexican immigrants who hop the border. Same applies to a lot of Central American immigrants who have been affected by CAFTA.

You want to stop illegal border hopping and the flow? Stop these so-called "free trade" agreements which leads to co-dependence. Then the economies of those countries can rebuild themselves, thus quelling the need to emigrate.

And Riekie, I do agree that immigrants that come to your country need to learn the language, or at least some of it. Man, in Los Angeles you need to learn Spanish to get around.......sheesh!

Riekie

01-17-2008, 07:55 PM

@Beautiful_death: I thought speaking Spanish to get around was only required in Florida..guess I was mistaken>.> Lol I guess it's about the same here then^^

beautiful_death

01-17-2008, 08:07 PM

@Riekie: Yeah, it's not even funny at times. It always trips me out whenever I'm at a Japanese restaurant and the kitchen staff are Mexican or Central American. I think the Latino population is actually about 50%, nationwide. You can really, really see it in Southern California though.

speedphantom

01-18-2008, 01:42 AM

I guess I agree with the language learning bit. Its the official language so you have to pick it up I guess. I still think that Western countries are selfish for only having 1 official language when South Africa has 11 and Singapore has 4 official languages.I do not know of this. in America, they just deport the illegal immigrants regardless of their work status or importance to their neighborhood. But it sounds damned awful.Thats well, quite heartless. I suppose thats the American government for you though.

ShuiMei

01-25-2008, 06:44 AM

Immigration in Canada does not harm the economy, indeed it is the exact opposite, and I would imagine it is the same for many other similar modern industrialized countries. With low birth-rates in most industrialized nations, many countries need immigration to support population growth which will in turn maintain a steady workforce.

"Baby-boomers," are the largest segment of the working population in Canada and are now at the retiring age, so many are leaving the workforce. Seeing how the current population and the natural birth rate is not sufficient to replace those outgoing workers, we need immigration to support growth, and even during times of economic slow-down as we are experiencing now, immigration is still absolutely vital for Canada.

It really rubs me the wrong way when citizens of a country say things like "immigrants are taking away out jobs," it's such a loaded farcical statement. The jobs that most immigrants, particularly illegal ones, take when they first arrive are not appealing, high wage jobs- they are usually ones that demand long hours, hard labour and have poor pay they are not the kind of jobs most people want. Moreover, as I mentioned before, the local population alone is often not enough to meet demand in some industries, so when you not only have a local population that is both disinterested and insufficient, immigration is absolutely necessary.

Take a look at the province of Alberta which is experiencing a huge economic boom due to their oil sands. There's tons of people moving there to find work, and as a result there's a massive demand for constructing as all these people moving there certainly need housing. Well there's not enough construction workers in Alberta alone to support this exponential demand so they need immigrant workers to step up where the local workforce cannot.

Moreover, immigrants in general are discriminated against in the workforce. Their education is not as valued as local education, they often do not get paid as much as someone who is of similar rank but local-born, and they also do not get promoted as often as one who is local-born as many immigrants have very limited social and economic mobility, especially when compared to local-born citizens. Any foul cries about the workforce injustices caused by immigrants towards locals is nonsense, these people have no idea how difficult it is for immigrants, and those problems don't stop when they become legal or gain citizenship.

Bleu

01-25-2008, 08:52 PM

I guess i will use Canada, Mexico, and the United States as an example here.

The US needs to help mexico with its government and its economy, you hear always about mexican immigrants but never canadian immigrants flooding in. Why? Canada is economically sound, and it supports itself fine. Its a delightful place to live. Mexico is rickedy, and while it is very beautiful, it isnt as good as it could be. Rather than building a giant wall, the US should focus on helping their economy and helping the people there. If they loan like 1 billion dollars from china then in no time things could turn around and there wouldnt be such a big problem with immigrants.

Not learning the language is also very irresponsible and i think it just makes more burdens for society x_x especially when they have bene living there for 10 years and more.. when i was 4 i learned german (native tongue), and it wasnt perfect grammarwise, but it was understandable. learning a language isnt hard. If people come to my country i want them to learn french and speak it, take 4 years out and learn it.

Primera Espada

01-26-2008, 07:58 AM

I'd like to point out that most of the people who complain about job loss to immigrants are not high wage earners, they are the bottom rung, the ones who's jobs ARE actually in danger. Why do you think they always look like rednecks, or people from the slums. When's the last time you saw a guy in a sweatervest saying "Muffy, dear, those horrible illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from me of all people! that's why i can't find work as a high priced hollywood attourney" XD

Where I live, fast food places hire immigrants left and right because they will work for minimum wage and not ask for anything more. They are even easier to manipulate due to the language barrier. However, when an 18 year old trying to earn some money to put himself through college applies, sorry, there's allready 20 people lined up ready to take the same job and not complain about unethical treatment cause it's still far better than the country they came from.

*illegal* aliens are a huge problem. regular immigrants are great for a country though. But the illegal ones usually aren't here for the same reasons as the legal ones either.

beautiful_death

01-26-2008, 06:59 PM

@ Primera: I totally agree with your sentiment, because it's not cool if people hop the border and expect a free lunch. I do have more sympathy for the immigrants who have had to cross an ocean to come here, since they tend to come here using legal channels and they've come from more dire situations than in Mexico.

Of course, I don't make my opinion on illegal immigrants known, because as a Chicana/o Studies major, I'm expected to be lenient toward this issue. O_O
All of my family came here legally from the Philippines, and they got their citizenship. The economy back home is far worse than in Mexico; there are countries overseas who have much worse economies, yet immigrants from those nations use legal means to come here (political asylum, business or student visas, family petitioning).

What I'm wondering is......why is it that the people who come here legally have a much harder time getting citizenship?

speedphantom

01-28-2008, 10:18 AM

Regarding your last sentence, is that saying that it takes longer for the US immigration to process an application for citizenship than it does for an illegal immigrant?

beautiful_death

01-31-2008, 11:13 PM

@ Speedphantom: It does take longer (now, at least) to apply for citizenship, and often times, people who come here legally want to petition their family over as well. Therefore, there is more paperwork involved and more legal proceedings. Unfortunately, there is this Z visa out that will prevent anyone coming over here legally to petition their family over. It makes it a lot more difficult.

If you're undocumented (or illegal), it's also hard to apply for citizenship but it is slightly easier than for an immigrant who came from overseas. And often times they cut in front of people who have been waiting to be naturalized citizens.

Also, different communities of color deal with different nuances of the immigration issue. For a lot of Latino communities, there's a significant amount of undocumented immigrants, Asian immigrants have to contend with petitioning their family over.

Sora Chan

02-16-2008, 09:59 PM

Eh I won't pretend to be completely educated on the issue, but I can offer my opinions. I can only talk about the issues in the United States. But first I would like to say, I hate when people assume immigrants refer to Mexicans. Immigrants come from other places too.
I think that instead of trying to get rid of all the illegal immigrants, our government (The U.S government) needs to concentrate on stopping illegal immigration. How exactly they will do that I am unsure, possibly by negotiating the immigration quota. Afterwards the government should work towards nationalizing the illegal immigrants that are already here. Then they can pay taxes etc.
This stuff about immigrants stealing jobs away from the American people I don't buy. If we were so concerned about the number of jobs in America we would end the outsourcing.
About learning the countries official language, America doesn't have one. I do think it's best to learn the language as it is easier to communicate, but I will not pretend that learning a language is so easy. Not to point you out Bleu, but you said you learned German when you were four? Children have an unexplained talent for learning languages. As you get older, your ability to learn a language decreases. It isn't as simple as people say it is.

Bleu

02-17-2008, 10:19 PM

English is the major language in america, therefor, its also the official. Everywhere you go in america there are signs posted in english, about 98% out of all the tv programs are in english, the road signs are in english. Its a country that was settled by englishmen, and that language stuck. You have to know english to live there, plain and simple. Just like you have to know french to live here.

Heres another point:

If you have illegal immigrants comming in, then who knows who else is comming in, too? Terrorists could be jumping over the walls to other countries and plotting attacks as we speak. That one person who was overlooked could be responsible for the deaths of many people, and its being allowed. No.immigration policies need to be much more stricter, to better safe countries, and the world.

Rain

02-17-2008, 10:32 PM

Bleu- but its getting to the point where you don't have to know english to live here, and it would be more advantageous for everyone to know another language, but many in the US are too stubborn

and most terrorists wouldn't sneak in illegally, they'd come in legally most of time, and make sure to not cause problems, just as most illegal immigrsnt aren't the ones to cause problems (for fear fo getting caught), its the legal ones

alexie

02-18-2008, 02:40 AM

One of the things that ppl always throw out there is that terrorist enter the country by "hoping through the wall." Actually, like Rain mentioned, the most of the known cases of terrorists have entered the US through visas. The only things that pass the border illegally is people and drugs. A wall will do nothing about both of them. Oh and before someone says something, illegal drugs and illegal aliens aren't in league with each other:p
But, I don't know how it's like on other countries so this is simply and observation :o

I agree with everyone that people should learn English to get by in this society, but I can understand, to some extent, why that would take a back burner in their plans. It's either work or school. You can guess which one they usually take.

@beautiful_death: I can see how petitioning an entire family over can take time, but I don't see why it would be easier for the other side. Of course, I really don't know how long it takes to petition a family:o, but it took my parents 20 years to get their residency (and here adding the incident where Immigration lost a lot of files and many people where affected by this. Fortunately, my parents kept records of everything and where able to get for their case back on track). Now, they are waiting the req. 5 years(I believe) to file for their citizenship. Here sharing this to show one incident. :)

IMHO, I think that in the case of most immigration from Mexico, Central and South America is due to the problems in that country; currupt governments, drugs, and organized crime are the some of the problems. These contries have been taking action against these problems, but honestly in my pov, I really don't see an end to them, and maybe I'm in the little pessimistic side. They have such a tight grip on things and -I'm sorry to say- the authorities are usually no help at all.

Primera Espada

02-18-2008, 07:17 AM

the canadian border being so lax on immigration (because, comparatively, it has such a low rate of illegal immigrants to begin with) made it easy for certain hijackers, and hijackers to be to cross into the US illegally.

Most terrorists do not enter this country legally, rather, they take illegal measures to help ensure a somewhat legal status on their false identities. This is not the same. They aren't working for 10-15 years trying to establish citizenship.

Also, on a point said earlier, making it harder for families to be pulled over is a way to curb the immigration issue. Essentially if you get too large a population growth, particularly when that population growth is 95% unskilled laborers (illegal immigrants, as well as some legal ones) then the economy takes a dive. You need to try and keep a diverse flow of immigrants, hence why the systems are in place. It becomes harder for legal ones to get in because they're trying to compensate for the illegals that get in. Reduce illegal immigration, and legal immigration becomes easier.

beautiful_death

02-18-2008, 07:32 AM

The border issue is a lot more prominent along the U.S./Mexican border, especially in California. I see how problematic the legal proceedings for people using the legal channels can become, all in order to compensate for the influx of undocumented immigrants coming in.

Since California has a 50% Latino population (mostly immigrants from Mexico), the immigration issue has been ping-ponged left and right. I, for one am all about border control but my Chicana/o collegues.....man, they are all for letting them in. I feel conflicted sometimes...

Bleu

02-18-2008, 05:15 PM

I disagree, rain.

The most probable way to get into a country with the intents of terrorism is to sneak in. Background checks would be administered upon legal entry, with facial intendification they have of members of Al quadia (i dont know how to spell that) and other terrorist groups. Its easy to smoke them out now, even with a fake ID.

If you have little children and adults going over the border like packmules, who knows what other types of people we are feeding through? It would be MUCH MORE easier to sneak through successfully, then risk it legally.

There could be terrorists in your homecities right now, just waiting for the que to attack. & it would be the countries fault for allowing this illegal immigration to continue before their eyes.

Babbo

02-18-2008, 08:20 PM

Nah their lying. The governments love the "free illegal" immigrants really. You probably wonder why i say this? It's because they take the jobs no one who has been born and bred in this country will take anymore. Solves a little problem which could mean the difference between them being elected and not because people aren't winging the immigrants are our bin men or road sweepers and what not because people know they don't want to take that career option.

This is an opinion that always confuses babbo. See, babbo did dish washing a couple summers and worked with some illegal immigrants. Sure they take the jobs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they do them well. Sure many of them do, but this stereotype of the hardworking immigrant is not the rule; it is after all, a stereotype. There were plenty of white (not saying that it's whites jobs that were getting stolen, it's just connecticut, and the only other people babbo saw apply were white) people that applied for the dish washing job too. One of them was just as lazy as anyone else. Another guy was one of the hardest working people babbo's ever met (and believe it or not babbo is a pretty damn hard worker; Chef fired 4 scared off/fired four other dishwashers during the time babbo worked there).

The simple fact is they are taking jobs, and that they aren't paying taxes. Additionally has anyone considered the health care? When an illegal immigrant gets rushed into a hospital who do you think foots the bill? Another thing to consider is that many immigrants send a large part of the money they earn back home rather back into the economy >.>

And whether or not we were all illegal immigrants, the united states has internationally acknowledged borders and sovereignty within those borders. If the government decides not to have let more immigrants in it does not have to. At the same time babbo thinks that its ridiculous to try and deport 12 millionish people (don't know what Mitt Romney was smoking during the debates when he talked about that). They're going to have to be naturalized or something along those lines. But there's got to be a stopping point, especially when we're hitting a recession, because are going to start needing those dirt cheap jobs if a recession does hit hard enough >.>

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

- Emma Lazarus, "The New Colossus"

But not your chinese or mexicans (well at least not that aren't in the land that we annexed from mexico). Oh wait, and not any non northern european immigrants for a bit either. And by the way we're gonna treat catholicism and Judaism as a dirty pseudo religions for a while too. That poem is such a lie >.>

speedphantom

02-19-2008, 01:59 AM

I'd just like to propose a hypothetical situation. Say the American economy crumbles and things deteriorate, millions of Americans are poor and starving and decide they want to go to Mexico and Canada. Should Mexico and Canada let them all in?

Just want to ask you guys, do you blame the Mexicans for wanting to illegally cross into America for a better life? I'm sure anyone would do the same.I disagree, rain.

The most probable way to get into a country with the intents of terrorism is to sneak in. Background checks would be administered upon legal entry, with facial intendification they have of members of Al quadia (i dont know how to spell that) and other terrorist groups. Its easy to smoke them out now, even with a fake ID.

If you have little children and adults going over the border like packmules, who knows what other types of people we are feeding through? It would be MUCH MORE easier to sneak through successfully, then risk it legally.

There could be terrorists in your homecities right now, just waiting for the que to attack. & it would be the countries fault for allowing this illegal immigration to continue before their eyes.If someone really wants to plot a terrorist attack they wouldn't just go for a holiday in that country, there's all the materials they need etc. You can't just take that in your suitcase. Being "one of them" as in one of the citizens of the target country is the best way of planning an attack and there is absolutely no way to know someone's background so just because the immigration officials might think they come from a country which might harbour terrorists doesn't mean that everyone from that country is dodgy. You just can't tell. Anyone from any country could be a terrorist and its not as if all the terrorists in the world are on the CIA watchlist.

No country "allows" illegal immigration. Its against the law for every country. Depends on the policy of the government but if the "illegal immigrants" are in fact refugees, it would be cruel just to knock them back. Nothing can be done about this particular issue so I think its best to just work with it.

Babbo

02-19-2008, 02:17 AM

I'd just like to propose a hypothetical situation. Say the American economy crumbles and things deteriorate, millions of Americans are poor and starving and decide they want to go to Mexico and Canada. Should Mexico and Canada let them all in?

Just want to ask you guys, do you blame the Mexicans for wanting to illegally cross into America for a better life? I'm sure anyone would do the same.If someone really wants to plot a terrorist attack they wouldn't just go for a holiday in that country, there's all the materials they need etc. You can't just take that in your suitcase. Being "one of them" as in one of the citizens of the target country is the best way of planning an attack and there is absolutely no way to know someone's background so just because the immigration officials might think they come from a country which might harbour terrorists doesn't mean that everyone from that country is dodgy. You just can't tell. Anyone from any country could be a terrorist and its not as if all the terrorists in the world are on the CIA watchlist.

No country "allows" illegal immigration. Its against the law for every country. Depends on the policy of the government but if the "illegal immigrants" are in fact refugees, it would be cruel just to knock them back. Nothing can be done about this particular issue so I think its best to just work with it.

No and they wouldn't. Neither mexico nor canada would do it anyways. The US has a comparably gigantic population. How do the troubles of another nation mandate that we should let everyone who wants to come in o,o? Especially now that we've got a possible recession in the future? There are an estimated 12 million living in the US. 12 million! And We're trying to keep illegal immigration down. What do you think will happen if the flood gates are opened?

How does the reason behind it make it right though? Babbo wants a better car. Should he get illegally?

Bleu

02-19-2008, 07:15 PM

No country "allows" illegal immigration. Its against the law for every country. Depends on the policy of the government but if the "illegal immigrants" are in fact refugees, it would be cruel just to knock them back. Nothing can be done about this particular issue so I think its best to just work with it.

By blindly allowing it to happen while in public it is a major problem, it is the same as allowing it. Its almost like statutory neglect of the laws. The governments aren't doing anything about the problem of immigration, and they are letting it continue before their eyes regardless of the laws.

As for your hypothetical situation, people live unfufilling lives because they choose to. Everyone in the world has the opportunity to become billionaires, and have enough food on the table to last 10 lifetimes. If people are starving, its because they choose to starve. It isnt the economys fault, because we are all part of the economy. If my country went into a state like that, i would fight to regain order, not leave. Its all a matter of choice. If you allow illegal immigrants into your country while its in turmoil, the problem would only extend. Why should people have to abandon their country and go somewhere foreign? Wouldnt that cause more problems because that family or person cannot adjust?

Babbo

02-19-2008, 09:13 PM

By blindly allowing it to happen while in public it is a major problem, it is the same as allowing it. Its almost like statutory neglect of the laws. The governments aren't doing anything about the problem of immigration, and they are letting it continue before their eyes regardless of the laws.

As for your hypothetical situation, people live unfufilling lives because they choose to. Everyone in the world has the opportunity to become billionaires, and have enough food on the table to last 10 lifetimes. If people are starving, its because they choose to starve. It isnt the economys fault, because we are all part of the economy. If my country went into a state like that, i would fight to regain order, not leave. Its all a matter of choice. If you allow illegal immigrants into your country while its in turmoil, the problem would only extend. Why should people have to abandon their country and go somewhere foreign? Wouldnt that cause more problems because that family or person cannot adjust?

I'm sorry but second half of your post is pure unadulterated bullshit. Mexico is in the state it is now in no small part due to the actions of the united states government and it's citizens; it may have it's share of corruption and problems of its own creation, but the US has done its share in pushing them in the wrong direction at least since the 19th century >.>

That's not to say that we should let people cross our borders (that even the Mexican government recognizes) but it's stupid to say that its all their fault that their economy is in such bad shape.

Bleu

02-19-2008, 11:10 PM

I'm sorry but second half of your post is pure unadulterated bullshit. Mexico is in the state it is now in no small part due to the actions of the united states government and it's citizens; it may have it's share of corruption and problems of its own creation, but the US has done its share in pushing them in the wrong direction at least since the 19th century >.>

That's not to say that we should let people cross our borders (that even the Mexican government recognizes) but it's stupid to say that its all their fault that their economy is in such bad shape.

Sure it is. Because its MEXICO, not the UNITED STATES. They have the responsibility to run their country, and if they are allowing themselves to be pushed by the US then that is their problem, and they should fix it. Theres no excuses, no blame but ones own. Mexico isnt a child that needs guidance.

beautiful_death

02-20-2008, 07:01 AM

Mexico has a really corrupt government and the U.S. intervening with NAFTA doesn't help either. Hence the huge migration after NAFTA being introduced in 1994.

Babbo

02-20-2008, 06:49 PM

Sure it is. Because its MEXICO, not the UNITED STATES. They have the responsibility to run their country, and if they are allowing themselves to be pushed by the US then that is their problem, and they should fix it. Theres no excuses, no blame but ones own. Mexico isnt a child that needs guidance.
We stole the northern half of the original Mexican empire in a war of Imperialist aggression. And even today we build our factories there are pollute their land. There's literally no way to excuse that -.-;; It kinda boggles the mind that you could possibly believe what you're saying.

Ralphyundertudy

03-07-2008, 03:16 PM

Assume for a moment that the United States of America is like a homeowner who went for a long walk and left his garage door open. Inside the garage, he left his new car, his wallet, cell phone and a briefcase full of cash in it. ---

Another man low on $ and down on his luck, walks by and notices the garage is open and unattended e has a family to feed and has been unemployed for several months He enters the garage and no one notices him He finds the wallet the cell phone and the briefcase in the car He takes both the wallet and the briefcase and disappears into the city to enjoy what he took without permission

死神

03-08-2008, 02:14 AM

The only way they will keep the illegal aliens from entering will be a military unit dedicated with some support. Right now even the Mexican military has crossed into the united states many times helping drug cartels move drugs into the country. Not all are coming here to get a better life some are coming here to evade the law or to commit other crimes and make money.

Mars

03-13-2008, 04:01 PM

Oh, immigration... sometimes i wish there were no boarders.. damned immi-laws..

beautiful_death

03-20-2008, 07:07 PM

I wish the current immigration laws would take into account people who have been waiting for decades to be citizens, and to take in political prisoners asking for political asylum. Legalize the immigrants who have been here for years and have been contributing to the economy, but also stronger enforcement on the borders.

bradc

03-20-2008, 07:47 PM

I find immigration is pointless from time-to-time...

When people is migrating like flock of birds since the beginning of time since everyone lives in the sphere on this earth. Hong Kong has a smart card system where it was implemented for residents only; where US now says everyone needs a passport to cross borders, but not everyone has one! The smart card holds your information and identity of the person, but still need passport, but it makes immigration and migration a lot faster than waiting too long in line. When I was back from trip from Hong Kong, going through Chicago O'Hare Airport was pain in the ass when you already went through the security once and have to go through again (grumbles).

America is just slow and behind while Asia is constantly ahead.

Make your life simple, not hard...

LUV

03-27-2008, 05:43 PM

My parents came from Honduras as IMMIGRANTS!

Bleu: I cannot belive what you said! My mom worked her ass off to put food on the table, sometimes getting paid what is equivalent to $2 a day... how the hell is it her choice to not succeed in life? How the hell can she become a Billionaire when the only jobs she could get, were the ones that didn't pay. If people had a choice to starve or not, I'm sure they would choose not to. In Honduras people can work their asses off for ever, and still not make enough to feel their family...

That is why my MOM came to the USA... she immigrated here, worked her ass off, and now she is a CITIZEN.. she came to this country to help her family, not to cause problems. Even when she was here, she was still underpaid, she worked the jobs that no American Citizen would want, so she got it, cause she was in need. Saying that people have a choice to starve or not is just DUMB!

As for the BORDERS... I am hispanic and there in nothing else I would want more than for our Latin American countries to become strong and have great economy's so that their people could have enough money to feed their families, but until then, US should enforce the BORDERS a lot more and US should try to teach those idiots in government how to run a country:yell

All the damn corruption kills us. If Mexico didn't have such useless presidents though the ages, I am sure they would be a great COUNTRY.. they have so many resources and their people are HARD workers..... there in not one Mexican that I have met that is lazy, they all have like two jobs and that is very respectable......

Shdo

03-27-2008, 05:54 PM

you are right about the billionare thing, luv, in many countries a western factory gives the children just enough money so that they can live their lives at the same spot, enough money for food, water, housing and medication, apperantly its all good but the truth is that its a kind of slavery, those kids will never earn enough so that they can leave that job, they will never be able to pay for education. where you are born got alot to do with how much money you can make and how far you will get in life.

as a 'westerners' we have much more potential then some1 who comes from so many parts of the worlds, its a sad truth of this world.

Babbo

03-27-2008, 06:19 PM

LUV

03-27-2008, 06:48 PM

Babbo: LOL.. Well.. I said that I have not met a Mexican that was lazy.. if you hve... then thats you.. not me.....lol

Babbo

03-27-2008, 10:54 PM

Babbo: LOL.. Well.. I said that I have not met a Mexican that was lazy.. if you hve... then thats you.. not me.....lol

Ah. Well Babbo had assumed you had put that in there with the intention of accomplishing something o,o

The guy did crack babbo up though, and he was a hard worker when he a) came to work and b) felt like working. Only one of the three other white guys babbo worked with there was a hard worker too so babbo certainly can give some credence to the idea that these are jobs that most people don't want; on the other hand that guy lasted longer and worked harder than any of the Mexicans/Latinos (one guy came from Ecuador) and was going to culinary school at the same time. It was at a dish washing job babbo did for two summers and we were supposed to clean out the grease trap which is a smelly nasty job that a) you never want to do alone and b) Chef told us to always do together so it goes faster:

Babbo: Time to clean out the grease trap man. *gestures in direction of grease trap.

Angel: *eyes widen* Me potato!

Babbo: Fuck you buddy ;D *hands him a bucket and some trash bags*

Angel: *stands there for a couple seconds and stares; ends up doing it*

Babbo can't think about that guy without remembering that XD

LUV

03-27-2008, 11:11 PM

Babbo: May ask what you were trying to accomplish... lol

Oh.. dishwasher... eww.. that is a nasty dirty job... I wouldn't want to do that...

I hope that the US can come up with a policy that will make all parties happy.. I know it would be hard to give everyone amnesty, but maybe a work permit or something like that... I hope they try to work with the immigrants already here and ENFORCE the borders....

Babbo

03-28-2008, 12:22 AM

LUV

03-28-2008, 04:53 AM

Fine.. regardless though... stereotype or not.. we need an immigration policy that enforces our borders... not only by stoping people to come in illegaly, but also the drugs and stuff like that, and we also need to have an easier way for people to obtain visas or whatever they need to enter the country legally...

We need to make sure that the people who are already here are taken care of, I'm not saying.. make them all legal, but at least make it possible form them to work legally or for them to obtain their residency as long as they haven't commited any crimes...........

gab00n

03-28-2008, 05:58 AM

Wow, I never knew Bleu was a Billionaire. All you had to do was choose to be one? That's so cool, I wonder if that applies to everything in life. Why the hell didn't anyone think of that before? I'm going to try it tomorrow, I wonder what I'll buy first? I also think I won't study for my CS test on Monday, why bother when I can just choose to get 100%. Incredible!

Shdo

03-28-2008, 06:11 AM

there are tests for counter strike?! WOW!
seriously you right, chosing wont help you if you dont have the chance and people in third world countries dont have the chances.

LUV

03-28-2008, 08:49 AM

Exactly.. I am sure if people could choose, we wouldn't be having this debate to start with.

People who suffer want a better life and for some, that means migrating to other countries, so why not make it easier and build a system that is fair to them and to the country?

Shdo

03-28-2008, 08:54 AM

its like this episode in south park where in the future the world is poor so there are immigrents from the future to the present where they work for starvation paychecks and put that money in saving accounts so that their family could use the money a 1000 years in the future.

but their cheap work made everyone lose their job (ther tooc ou jov) so they decided to make sure there wouldnt be a future by becoming gay, in the end the solutionwas easy, everyone will improve the present so that the future would be better and there wont be a need for immigrents to come.
in other words, improve the condition in mexico and there would be less and less illigel immigrents.

EX|pada #0

03-28-2008, 10:26 AM

I'm pro immigration. Every people in this f*cked up world are free and have the right to go anywhere they want to.

And I think the immigration enrich the culture of a country. Look at Brazil for example, is one of the countries with most cultural content in the world and at the same time our people are miscigened as hell.

Shdo

03-28-2008, 10:30 AM

culture culture, but what what about the economy?the demographics? immigration isnt all good in every situation and the people of a country might not be so happy about that.

it might have worked in a perfect world but our world isnt perfect and immigrents bring other things beside culture richness. so your idea is nice but it wont work in this world, not yet.

EX|pada #0

03-28-2008, 10:34 AM

Ok, ok, I know there's the fact that "These foreigners are stealing the jobs of our people!" but my idea of every people is free and can go everywhere they want prevail, after all.

Shdo

03-28-2008, 10:46 AM

does that include people who wants to force their way of life on yours? the same for people who comes with the intention of making bombs? and countless other examples?

free borders wont work untill the human race advance.

EX|pada #0

03-28-2008, 10:47 AM

Well, for these kind of people there are laws and the defense forces.

Shdo

03-28-2008, 10:55 AM

think about it this way, people come to israel from east asia to work, they send money to their families in east asia and everyone happy, untill too many comes, eventually too many workers will cause the local population to go out of buisness, so what will they do? move to america and work there, (we are still talking about free borders) with them comes people from south america, mexico, eastern europe and russia, eventually the same thing that happend b4 will happen there so americans move to europe and so one untill you got a pretty crappy world.

the right thing to do is to improve the lifes of people on third world countries, and from there moving up, improve the quality of life everywhere so that the whole world is at least moderatly convinient, then there would be almost no need for immigration beside social and cultural reasons.

EX|pada #0

03-28-2008, 10:59 AM

Obviously improve the lifes of people in third world countries are the right thing to do to put and end in this massive immigration. But then again, isn't that easy and you can't disallow people to go where they want, because we are in a free world.

Shdo

03-28-2008, 11:10 AM

what free world? to every country you go they ration your time there, if you want to be a citizen you need to pass some createria and so on.
all around the world people are denied to go and LIVE in other places, you are a citizen of brazil and not a citizen of italy, you can visit there and maybe work there but you cant just move there forever without getting citizenship.
improving the whole world with the hope that someday in 10000 years humanity will have common values and ethics and then borders will be meaningless and countries will become only a line on the map to ease tax collection for the world goverement but untill something like this happen then the world isnt free.

EX|pada #0

03-28-2008, 11:16 AM

You're pretty damn right, but I'm sure that you understood what I meant with the "free world" thing, right?

Unicorn

03-28-2008, 11:25 AM

Shdo... I'll have to disagree with your points here.

citizenship to stay forever
Nope, permanent residency allows for that too.

criteria to receive citizenship
Meeting criteria exists in every stage in our lives, and in every country. Why are you singling immigration out? If you want to buy alcohol / go to the casino, you need to meet the age criteria. Even if you want to work in McDonalds anywhere in the world, you still need to meet a set of criteria.

Cheap foreign labour forcing local people to go out of business... the right thing to do is to improve the lifes of people on third world countries

Cheap labour in foreign countries (eg. China, India, Vietnam) forces your local manufacturer to close and relocate to another country where the very favourable exchange rate means more profits. In turn this practice helps the third-world countries to improve their economic standing. Its a vicious cycle.

does that include people who wants to force their way of life on yours?
This works both ways. Just because I move to Japan does not mean that I have to like sashimi, because I hate raw fish. If either the immigrant or host country is law-abiding, there's no need to force anyone to 'live like you'.

the same for people who comes with the intention of making bombs? and countless other examples?
They're called terrorists and criminals, which most of the world understands as 'bad people'. Therefore please note 2nd point about criteria, where the host country screens potential visitors / residents to see if they may or may not pose a problem within their borders.

free borders wont work untill the human race advance.
Advance to? Could you please clarify?

humanity will have common values and ethics and then borders will be meaningless and countries will become only a line on the map to ease tax collection for the world goverement but untill something like this happen then the world isnt free.

Isn't this ideal what you were scared of, listed on point 4? Where one country is dominant enough to enforce their way of life onto other countries, so that we're just clones of the same?

Hitler possibly imagined something similar, and strove to implement it. Look what happened to people he considered 'undesirable'.

Shdo

03-28-2008, 11:44 AM

1) not every country have residancy laws, and in the countries that have its quite diffrent from one another and in someplaces far from free.

2)which isnt really a free world, just like i said.

3)its not really help them to improve, maybe the elite in those countries get richer but the kids that work in the factory get enough money only to keep on working in that factory, they might have enough money to feed themselves but they wont have enough money to but a car or getting education...in other words, they will remain the factory workers.

4)yet there are those who do, go and look at honor kiling thread for reference.

5)there are silent threats but this is another topic and shouldnt be discussed here for more then a brief moment.

6)beyond the us and them point of view, beyond the 'ill get rich on the backs of little chinise kids' point of view, all the behaviors that makes humans, humans.

7)the final point was that in 10000 years, with globalisation and stuff humanity will become more close in many aspects, ideals and morals, then there will be no need for such things as borders.
hitler wanted racial unity, one race one culture, and he was willing to force it with blood. i hope for ideological and ethical unity that will be created by centuries of globalism.
just like in my country there are diffrent minorities which are considered the same people but they are still very diffrent, with time the diffrances dissapear and if we moved so much in 60 years then in 100 years we will have a much more united culture.
where hitler tried to fulfil his goals with blood and metal i hope to fulfil my goals with time, conversations,time, conversations, and more time. with time humanity will find a way.

Unicorn

03-28-2008, 11:58 AM

not every country have residancy laws, and in the countries that have its quite diffrent from one another and in someplaces far from free.
2)which isnt really a free world, just like i said.
You mean countries should not screen for people that may pose a danger within their borders?

3)its not really help them to improve, maybe the elite in those countries get richer but the kids that work in the factory get enough money only to keep on working in that factory, they might have enough money to feed themselves but they wont have enough money to but a car or getting education...in other words, they will remain the factory workers.
Yep... what's wrong with factory workers? At least they have a job and could even afford to support their families! With more members of the family employed, they could even display material wealth.

Isn't this what you wished for, to improve the country's economic standing in the world?

4)yet there are those who do, go and look at honor kiling thread for reference.
And I believe that they are jailed for those actions, at least in Britain.

You mentioned 'forcing their way of life on you'... did those people go door-to-door with advertising material promoting that killing women is now the 'in thing' to enhance your career path? I doubt so. So technically thats not 'forcing their way of life on you'.

5)there are silent threats but this is another topic and shouldnt be discussed here for more then a brief moment.
I see it as being related to your argument that 'screening criteria is bad for a free world'.

7)the final point was that in 10000 years, with globalisation and stuff humanity will become more close in many aspects, ideals and morals, then there will be no need for such things as borders.
hitler wanted racial unity, one race one culture, and he was willing to force it with blood. i hope for ideological and ethical unity that will be created by centuries of globalism.
just like in my country there are diffrent minorities which are considered the same people but they are still very diffrent, with time the diffrances dissapear and if we moved so much in 60 years then in 100 years we will have a much more united culture.
where hitler tried to fulfil his goals with blood and metal i hope to fulfil my goals with time, conversations,time, conversations, and more time. with time humanity will find a way.

Singapore is a pretty good example of cultural harmony, where each race retains its own practices and religious festivals whilst the entire country joins in the celebrations.

Hang on, when you say 'ethical and ideological unity', do you mean that you hope that people will act and think alike? If so... in your perfect world, which country's ideology should the rest of the world adopt?

Shdo

03-28-2008, 12:14 PM

1) not at all, i said that the world isnt free, in contrast to ex|pada saying that it is.

2)i am sorry to tell you but paying a kid 1$ a day to make shows that would be sold for 20000$ isnt improving their status, its keeping them working for the factory, there is a limit to how much factories you can build in those countries without collapsing the funding country. anyway the ones who get rich are the employers of the kids, both in the west and in the east. dont fool yourselves, this look like employment but its slavery.

3)there are others examples, far worse, but i wont go into it. if you live in europe you will know enough about it in 20-30 years.

5)none, it will take thousends of years to reach this unity, who knows what culture and what ethics we will have then? you might think i would say america or something but how do you know it wont be saudi? with time it will happen and there will be more and more unity, what kind of unity...if we knew we would already be there.

Unicorn

03-28-2008, 12:24 PM

2)i am sorry to tell you but paying a kid 1$ a day to make shows that would be sold for 20000$ isnt improving their status, its keeping them working for the factory, there is a limit to how much factories you can build in those countries without collapsing the funding country. anyway the ones who get rich are the employers of the kids, both in the west and in the east. dont fool yourselves, this look like employment but its slavery.

You have to remember that US$1 converted to renminbi will see it multiplied several times. Whats wrong with giving people employment? Slavery is forcing someone to work for you without pay at all.

However you must agree that more employed people = a country with better productivity / economic standing?

I don't understand the number of foreign factories = collapse of funding country. Where there's supply, there's demand. Also, factories don't only serve one client.... they supply to countries all over the world.

3)there are others examples, far worse, but i wont go into it. if you live in europe you will know enough about it in 20-30 years.
If you're not prepared to discuss it in a debate, then why bring this particular topic up?

5)none, it will take thousends of years to reach this unity, who knows what culture and what ethics we will have then? you might think i would say america or something but how do you know it wont be saudi? with time it will happen and there will be more and more unity, what kind of unity...if we knew we would already be there.

Noted. However when you say 'ethical and ideological unity', do you mean that you hope that people will act and think alike?

Shdo

03-28-2008, 12:38 PM

1)lets say that this one us dollar is worth thousends of their own money, they get super rich and buy a new home, educate their kids and those kids become engeners who make their own factory, in less then 20 years they will get more money from other jobs, slowly the factories lose their work force for better paying jobs, they must increase the amount of money they give the workers...OR they can decrease the payment to 0.5 dollar a day and make sure that there will always be workers who would work for 0.5 dollar.
its the major coorporations agenda to keep the poor asian people poor because they can use them forever with low cost, tehre are no unions to stop them, so they give enough money for the poor people to stay poor...feed but poor.
read conversations with god, the second book for some more clarification.

2)i only gave it as a small example to ex|espada, the conversation shouldnt continue in that direction more then chapter 108 shoudnt keep talking about stats.

3) for example the american and british point of view is pretty much the same, war between those two is very unlikely, close countries are less likely to fight with one another, in the past the great distances made sure that diffrent societies were made, but now every1 are capable to learn about others, with time as more people will have access to internet and television we will see the growth of a more common ground between humanity.

for example, here we have people from all over the world (look at my nationality thread) and they all talk with smilies and stuff. now lets think how the world will look in 1000 years? we will slowly will become more and more into a mas of cultures that mix together into something much more rich and great. you wont see it happens in your lifetime and most likely your grandchildern wont see it but eventually it will happen.

to exactly what kind of future? i hope its a moral and ethical one and not a future where women are property, but i cant know for sure.

Babbo

03-28-2008, 05:48 PM

Cultures are based in the idea of their own continuance and uniqueness. They (well the nations based that are made up of cultures) wouldn't create their own states if it were otherwise. Just look to the US, everyone assumes that there's this whole melting pot, but most cultures try to hold onto what they have. The predominant (and babbo's not saying this is a good thing) mentality (for lack of a better word since babbo questions whether it is a nationality) is a product of Anglo Saxon American culture; there might be a hint here and a hint there of other cultures, but for the most part people gave up their old culture if they wholely assimilated. It's why you see Korean guys who are as white as cheese cake (babbo's got one in his history seminar. The guy's name is Will; when he moved into his dorm his dorm mates were surprised as hell (because they saw the name first) but when he spoke (ie without an accent) things suddenly became normal) or black people who differ so much across regional divisions. The point here is that idea of a pan ethnic world is unlikely to come as a result of a mixing of ethnicities. Ethnicities and cultures do not want to die out or mix things up too much. Before you see some kind of world wide culture (which is an impossibility if you ask babbo) others will have to die out <.<

Shdo

03-28-2008, 06:23 PM

Babbo

03-28-2008, 09:00 PM

i am talking in the overall picture, for example in my country there are many groups, from every continent, and as time passes a more and more single culture is made.
what i am talking about is something that will happen eventually over 1000+ years, given time cultures will mix, it happend before and it will happen again.

So was babbo. Cultures simply don't mix per se. By their very nature they wish to persist, a single culture is not made by mixing and matching parts. It comes about as a part of other cultures dying out and a dominant one taking their place, perhaps picking up bits and pieces from other cultures, but predominantly sticking itself <.<

Unicorn

03-29-2008, 03:22 AM

lets say that this one us dollar is worth thousends of their own money, they get super rich and buy a new home, educate their kids and those kids become engeners who make their own factory, in less then 20 years they will get more money from other jobs, slowly the factories lose their work force for better paying jobs, they must increase the amount of money they give the workers...OR they can decrease the payment to 0.5 dollar a day and make sure that there will always be workers who would work for 0.5 dollar.
its the major coorporations agenda to keep the poor asian people poor because they can use them forever with low cost, tehre are no unions to stop them, so they give enough money for the poor people to stay poor...feed but poor.
read conversations with god, the second book for some more clarification.

Are you supporting the growth of currently-developing countries or not? Quoting a semi-religious and fictional book to advocate how companies should pay less to their workers... doesn't really make sense in supporting your own arguments.

Experienced workers (yes, even poor factory workers in any country, including America... ) have the option of changing jobs if their pay is downgraded.

LOL at poor asian people reference - its amazing how many jobs are outsourced from the host country to these 'poor countries'. Where does that leave the people of the host country? Unemployed. Unemployment = no money = poor. Can we now call the host country 3rd world, and apply your example of 'keeping them poor'?

2)i only gave it as a small example to ex|espada, the conversation shouldnt continue in that direction more then chapter 108 shoudnt keep talking about stats.
Alright, then lets go back to your 'honor killing' example and your argument that its 'forcing their way of life on you'. I pointed out that they did not force people in their host country to accept their way of life, and that they were jailed for their actions. You did not clarify further on why you see this as 'forcing their way of life on you'.

3) for example the american and british point of view is pretty much the same, war between those two is very unlikely, close countries are less likely to fight with one another, in the past the great distances made sure that diffrent societies were made, but now every1 are capable to learn about others, with time as more people will have access to internet and television we will see the growth of a more common ground between humanity.

I agree with Babbo on this. For one main culture to emerge as the 'ideal' one, other cultures will have to dwindle. Who is to decide which culture lives or dies (no matter how much internet articles are written, or television news reports are produced).

Shdo

03-29-2008, 12:40 PM

Unicorn

03-29-2008, 12:53 PM

1) if you think that giving a kid 1$, when he makes shoes worth 20,000$ each day, a fair price then i really dont have anything to say to you, this dollar is given to him so that he will stay in that job but there is no hope for him to advance further and get a better job since this dollar is good enough for food clothing and housing, and none of the things you and i can enjoy. this is the new kind of slavery.

Why are you assuming that these employed people cannot change jobs to seek a better salary or working conditions? What is restricting them? Please note that they have the relevant work experience.

I've worked, and am working in a job (in Australia, possibly a developed country, dunno, never noticed) where millions of dollars are traded around beneath my nose, yet I get paid a measly sum per month. I can't afford a private jet or private island, yet I can buy food, clothing and housing. I do not consider myself a slave.

Do you work, shdo? Would you classify yourself as 'employed' or 'enslaved'? If everyone without a private island or private jet is 'enslaved', should all countries be sent back to '3rd world' rank?

3)no1 decide that, it just happen.
Peacefully? or with lots of propaganda?

...

btw, your example about $20,000 shoes. On top of material and manufacturing costs, you need to factor in various shipping, handling, packaging, designing and marketing campaign mark-ups and profits.

Shdo

03-29-2008, 01:04 PM

Unicorn

03-29-2008, 01:20 PM

1) what restrict them? they are poor farmers in the country side, where will they find a better job? maybe there are better jobs in their countries but how can they reach them if they get enough money just to stay poor? you on the other hand can save some money and buy education, apperantly you can also finance internet. you can advance in life, they cant.

So by your own example, if I get paid the equivalent of $1 out of $20,000 (the millions of dollars I see around), I'm still a poor hopeless asian? I understand that I won't become as rich as any of the top 100 on Financial Review, but that does not make me oppressed or enslaved.

lol at your too-poor farmers example... on one hand they earn $$, on the other hand they're too poor to search for a job / salary upgrade? Simple. They use the $$ they earned to move to where the better jobs are. This has been happening worldwide all the time, so its nothing special.

edit: Aha I found the link back to the topic at hand!!

also, shdo... do you currently work or study? Either way... I would like to know how you classify earning your salary / allowance. slavery or employment? Compared to Bill Gates, Donatella Versace or David Beckham, we're probably classified as below the poverty line.

well its only this kid, the rest of the kids making shows worth hundreads if not millions each day so somehow i feel that they are still used, you might think you do them a favor but you are only fooling yourself.

Ahhh.... now its million-dollar shoes, eh?

On the downside, if you protest by not buying clothing or shoes or imported food, you might deprive this kid of even his / her US$1 per day, and they will end up not being able to eat.

Shdo

03-29-2008, 01:36 PM

Unicorn

03-29-2008, 01:48 PM

1)who said you cant get to their level? save some money and buy education, get a more earning job and you are on the right track, the shoe factory kid cant efford the education.
my salary is employment, i save money now so when ill be in school i wont need to work and ill be able to spend more time on study.

All the education in the world can't get me to David Beckham's level. Also, wasn't Bill Gates a school dropout with a brilliant vision? Am not sure if David Beckham has a degree, methinks he doesn't. So your education = rich theory isn't holding up well at the moment.

How sure are you that these 'general oppressed slavery masses' can't afford education? How do you know that they are not doing exactly the same thing you are doing? Please don't generalise.

2) so you see what the companies do? they use the kid and say that they doing him a favor but in reality they keeping him under their control, in my country when you want to keep a worker you give him a raise, in that country you give him a low salary so that he wont have a choice but to stay at your factory.

I thought I already argued that currently-employed people have a choice to change jobs in search of better conditions or salary? :confused:

I think you misunderstand. If there's not enough business, the factory / company closes down and people are made jobless. This happens worldwide. Keeping people under control is a weird argument to use in this example, since these jobless people can go seek employment elsewhere in a factory / company that is being managed better.

...

And to link it back to Immigration: In their search for better jobs, people sometimes need to cross borders to better themselves and their families. Therefore I support immigration.

Shdo

03-29-2008, 02:31 PM

never said that its a sure thing, if i was saying its a sure thing i would support bleu theory a few pages back about just wanting to be a billionare and you are.
but by getting an education you open a possiability, that alone put you on a much more better stand then that factory kid. what kind of a better life can you get on 1 dollar salary?
especially when its not enough
http://www.clrlabor.org/alerts/1997/nikey001.html
giving some1 2.5 dollar a day isnt good...by any standard, read the article.

2) change jobs into what? the only reason that the western companies got there is because those countries are cheap and people will do anything for money, you might say that they do them a favor, i dont think so, they are using them. they will do them a favor when they will give the workers enough money for 3 meals a day and maybe some savings. apperantly in some of those countries 5$ would do the job for the WHOLE day.

Unicorn

03-29-2008, 11:25 PM

but by getting an education you open a possiability, that alone put you on a much more better stand then that factory kid. what kind of a better life can you get on 1 dollar salary?
especially when its not enough

Better than being unemployed and searching through waste dumps for food.

http://www.clrlabor.org/alerts/1997/nikey001.html
giving some1 2.5 dollar a day isnt good...by any standard, read the article.

Good article. I like how Nike is shamed by the consumer public awareness about its practices and is forced to publicly announce its implementation of better working conditions for its employees.

2) change jobs into what? the only reason that the western companies got there is because those countries are cheap and people will do anything for money, you might say that they do them a favor, i dont think so, they are using them. they will do them a favor when they will give the workers enough money for 3 meals a day and maybe some savings. apperantly in some of those countries 5$ would do the job for the WHOLE day.

Therefore my argument that people migrate – either nationally or internationally - in search of better jobs, and that one does not need to look for the same job as they did the last time. According to your argument in another thread, its petty much either adapt or die.

Getting a chance to upgrade your pay from $2.50 a day to $5 or $10 an hour... do you honestly think you’ll pass it up? I really doubt so. There are quite alot of jobs around the world that don't require a degree in Accounting, Law or Medicine (for example).

Luhy

03-30-2008, 01:06 AM

Babbo

03-30-2008, 01:58 AM

the US was founded by English immigrants... everyone in the USA is an Immigrant unless you're a Native American Indian, so all that we have is a result of immigration~ the cheap labor provided by immigrants, as harsh as it may sound, is what got us to where we are today... on another hand, there comes a point where the job market runs thin and those who currently reside in the US who aren't as qualified as others have difficulty supporting their family due to the cheap pay the immigrants will work for...

all things considered, American was founded by and for immigrants, built by and for immigrants, and is a beacon of hope for those who have no where to turn because of the equal opportunities available (symbolism of lady liberty) and needs to remain that way, regardless of lazy republicans and their backwards superficial thought processes

Well technically they're immigrants too. The difference now is that America is a sovereign nation (not a colony) that also happens to be in the midst of a recession. People are going to start needing those cheap jobs sooner or later <.< There's also the whole legality of it. During the early 20th century the immigrant labor was legal for the most part. Right now it isn't. Whether we need it or not that aspect need to be rectified. And it's weird when people think this whole situation is new. America has been pretty damn anti immigration for age (yes, even in the 19th and early 20th century). Even in the age Ellis island there was still Angel Island, the chinese exclusion act, the national quoat act and a host of other anti immigration measures. People should never live under the assumption that the closing of American borders is a new thing <.<

Luhy

03-30-2008, 07:00 PM

to me, it'd be much easier to think of ways to accomodate immigrants than to spend time making walls and crap... it's hypocritical to turn our backs on what we all once were and to take away to last hope of many who want better lives for their children~

ookami

04-22-2008, 03:17 PM

Immigration Is really bad in the UK thats why employers, employ more people who can speak different languges its that bad! Also any Immergrant who goes into a different country e.g. if they were a sex offender they wounld no longer be a sex offender in a new country.

Shdo

04-22-2008, 03:33 PM

i think that every country should do what is best to itself. why should one country take into it people who demage her economy or security just because their ancestors did? people change and so does countries and with the current world where the dangers of diseases and terror can wipe out entire populations, countries should advance with the times and with the dangers.

blindly going down a cliff wont help anyone, if you really want to help those immigrents then you should help their country reach stability and prosperity, it dosnt mean you should take their people and leave their country as a major exporter of immigrents. that dont help you or them.

Inevitable.Exit

04-22-2008, 03:33 PM

The immigration issue is not touchy at all. I'm not quite sure where people are getting that. The US is not getting in influx of refugees from a war torn country. They are getting a flood of people who come from a place where corruption runs rampant. And instead of taking it upon themselves as a people to demand changes to these things they would rather walk across the border to more "prosperous" conditions.

Yes a lot of the United States' culture was based on and influenced by the mass amounts of immigrants that came from Europe (mainly). But the difference between then and now, is back then the European immigrants came here, WANTED to learn English and most did, they taught their children to speak ONLY English even when at home they very much wanted to be part of America. From my experiences, and what I have seen, a large amount of the Latin American immigrants do not do such a thing. They want to keep their whole culture, and to an extent expect us to cater to them.

The people who want to give amnesty and citizenship to the ~12 million ILLEGAL immigrants in this country are seriously stupid as no economy could withstand the hit that that would cause. Imagine if tomorrow millions of people applied for Medicare, Medicaid, Food stamps, welfare, unemployment etc. There is no possible way.

I really think two changes really need to be made to curb our immigration policy. Those would be making English the OFFICIAL language in the United States. Way more people speak it than not speak it I would say its a grossly disproportionate English-speaking:non-English speaking.

The second would be changing the rule that "If a child is born in the United States by an illegal, it is an American Citizen." Many people don't realize this. It seems to be a much larger issue in the southern states where people will cross the border to give birth to their children and then they are considered a US citizen.

Either way, the immigration issue is very much a big deal. Will it be addressed? No. Why? Because politicians don't want to offend/alienate the group of legal spanish voters (This would mostly effect this group).

TLDR Summary: Don't come here Illegally. Go through the proper process. Please speak the language that the Majority speaks. That is all.

EX|pada #0

04-22-2008, 04:56 PM

Here in Brazil, tons of africans and asians are deportated to their own countries everyday. "Illegal imigration", this thing annoys me. I think every human being is free. In my mind, if africans or people from elsewhere comes to our country to "steal the jobs of brazilian people", the brazilian people who feel bothered by thing also have the right to go where they want. It's a example, I feel the same way with all countries.

We're in a globalized world guys, every country needs each other economically, I don't see why this have to change with us, human beings. ;)

Shdo

04-22-2008, 05:34 PM

the countries need one another yes, but not one another people as immigrents.
if everyone will be able to go freely from one country to another then everyone will leave the poor lands to go to the rich lands and that will only harm their economies. crushing a healthy economy wont help anyone.

EX|pada #0

04-22-2008, 05:55 PM

in a free world people would go to others countries everytime, so I think it'd not harm anything ;)

For example, while people would come to Brazil, brazilians would go to other countries in the world; while people goes to USA, USA citizens would go to other countries, and then... well, you got me.

And what you mean with "healthly economy"? If Brazil has some sort of "healthly economy" while people are dying stucked in their own poor countries, I definitely don't want Brazil to have a "healthly economy"

Shdo

04-22-2008, 06:10 PM

think about it this way, those people who starve in africa and asia barely getting anywhere with the help of western investments, making those economies crush down will only increase the suffering of the world.
moving poor people from one country to another dosnt solve the problem.

as for the USA in your example, where will they go?their economy is weakening more and more and the poor of the world just flow to the rich places, causing them to become poor as well.
in this, go free everywhere you promise one thing for this world, utter poverty for everyone.

wants a solution? help the source country economy instead of taking their immigrents.

EX|pada #0

04-22-2008, 06:22 PM

Well, people go to other countries for different reasons, not only for money ;)

I'm a good example. I'm thinking about move to Italy not because Italy is richer than Brazil, but because all my mom's family is from there and would be good to know another country. I'm hesitating because I'm a patriotic person here, and I'd miss my homeland to death.

Help other countries would be good also, but I don't think this is enough to deny people to go to other countries and doom them to live and die in their own country. But I think some requeriments to the free immigration would be applicable, like a basic knowledge of that country's language, laws and these things.

blaaaargh

05-02-2008, 08:31 PM

Dunno how this is a debate...the fact that they are "illegal" immigrants means they should be deported whenever they are found.

I was a legal immigrant as a child from South East Asia to Canada...grew up and became a citizen. Now I am a legal immigrant to the USA from Canada.

I don't have a solution for the problem, but I think that illegals are making things worse for legal immigrants who actually followed the rules. Immigration isn't that bad of a process if you are a skilled worker and successful, you know the kind of person who would benefit their new country.

Rain

05-02-2008, 09:55 PM

LUV

05-02-2008, 10:44 PM

Rain: QFMFT

Its not easy to come here legally if you are not some smart ass doing something good. PPL who come here are mostly poor in their countries, they come b/c they want a better life for themselves and their families. Ppl who come here from latin america come b/c they can't even afford to go to school in their countries, so how are they expected to afford a visa or any other type of legalization. Its just dumb...

I can't stand ppl who seem to think that kicking immigrants out is the only solution. I agree, sure, they came here illegally, but most ppl come here to work hard and make money, they don't come to cause trouble.

blaaaargh

05-02-2008, 10:53 PM

this is a debate because not all people are pro-immigration, and because of things like you said "illegal" immigrants should be deported immediately.

Why not work to help make them legal instead of automatically kicking them out?

Why not try to figure out whether they are illegal not all illegal immigrants are illegal just because they snuck across a border, things happen, laws change, you can't just kick them out without hearing their case first

and saying that illegal immigrants are making things worse for those that actually followed the rules in't necesarily true

many illegals at one time attempted to gain citizenship, but between the time it takes, whether they are accepted, and how easy it is to just sneak in, it is better for them to sneak in

just because the didn't follow the "law" doesn't mean they are in the wrong, just as having that law doesn't mean its right and just

I live and work in NYC and almost everyone I work with is an immigrant from Canada, Mexico, India, Europe, Asia, etc... All here legally on visas or greencards with masters degrees. Almost everyone can extend their visas or get into the greencard process without any problems and stay here legally. I also have many relatives who have legally immigrated to the USA from SE Asia which is poorer then Mexico to the USA without much problems. Why can't these people go through the system like the rest of us law-abiding citizens?

If circumstances change, and say my visa expires and I don't renew or declare for citizenship/greencard or for whatever reason I am no longer permitted to legally stay/work in the USA, are you suggesting that I break the law to stay?

Rain

05-02-2008, 10:56 PM

LUV- exactly, one of my biggest problems with this issue; the thoughts that illegal immigrants are also a source of crime

thoughts like that bug me to no end, mainly because it isn't exactly proven, and it is far from logical

if people are here illegally, they don't want to draw attention to themselves, so they aren't going to be the ones in gangs and stuff, or the ones stealing

illegal immigrants are just people who probably had a hard life in their former home country, and they are looking for better lives, and for some reason, we as a society condemn that:mad:

edit- bla

i don't disagree that i think they should come here legally, but its not a purely fiscal issue

you also need to look at accesibility. Mexico shares a border with the US, so it is relatively easy for them to simply cross the border. It isn't as easy in other countries, so it is far more economical (for the lack of a better word) to come here legally

plus, there is a big stigma associated not with immigrants in general, but spanish immigrants, so attepted to go through allt he legal procedures may not be as easy as they should be

blaaaargh

05-02-2008, 10:59 PM

LUV

05-02-2008, 11:04 PM

I live and work in NYC and almost everyone I work with is an immigrant from Canada, Mexico, India, Europe, Asia, etc... All here legally on visas or greencards with masters degrees. Almost everyone can extend their visas or get into the greencard process without any problems and stay here legally. I also have many relatives who have legally immigrated to the USA from SE Asia which is poorer then Mexico to the USA without much problems. Why can't these people go through the system like the rest of us law-abiding citizens?

If circumstances change, and say my visa expires and I don't renew or declare for citizenship/greencard or for whatever reason I am no longer permitted to legally stay/work in the USA, are you suggesting that I break the law to stay?

Congratulations, you have enough money to afford a visa. Wow, I bet a lot of ppl envy you and a lot of ppl wish they had the money to be here legally, but since most people in other countries can't even afford shoes, why the hell would they waste the little money they do have in a visa, instead of for food and clothing for their kids.

It pisses me off that you make it sound so easy for people to just get up one day and decide, "Oh, I am going to get a Visa today, sure, my family might not have food, my child is terribly ill, but I must get a Visa so that by the time I get it, my damn kid won't even be alive anymore."

The way I see it, its not easy for other ppl, and thats why people want to come to America and make a better life for themselves, they don't care about the consequences. They are hard working honest people, well, the majority is, so why not find a way to let those ppl stay here and work legally?

Its unfair of you to think that everyone has it easy.....

Rain

05-02-2008, 11:09 PM

bla- of course we (and by we i mean pro-immigration people) would rather have them come here legally, and decrease the number of illegals

we differ on how that should be done

should we only allow legals in, or should we do our best to help these people become legal

blaaaargh

05-02-2008, 11:12 PM

edit- bla

i don't disagree that i think they should come here legally, but its not a purely fiscal issue

you also need to look at accesibility. Mexico shares a border with the US, so it is relatively easy for them to simply cross the border. It isn't as easy in other countries, so it is far more economical (for the lack of a better word) to come here legally

plus, there is a big stigma associated not with immigrants in general, but spanish immigrants, so attepted to go through allt he legal procedures may not be as easy as they should be

All I am saying is that in my own personal experience I've know alot of legal immigrants from Mexico/South America and it doesnt seem too difficult to move here legally.

Maybe it is because I'm a relative newcommer to the USA (just been here 2 yrs) but I mean Canada can't be that different! I just wonder why its such an issue, in any other country in the world those people would be deported as soon as they were found out.

Rain

05-02-2008, 11:19 PM

im not an immigrant so i really don't know how hard it would be, so i can't bring up any personal experience to the table

but honestly, and this may be completely wrong, but I feel that the reason that immigration is such an issue, is because they speak spanish, and their english may not be so good

thats all

they are coming over in great enough numbers and settling in the same areas, and that is changing those areas

most people in the US don't have a problem with other immigration because those immigrants won't force them to change, but the large influx of hispanics can

i feel its as simple (and depressing) as that

blaaaargh

05-02-2008, 11:20 PM

Congratulations, you have enough money to afford a visa. Wow, I bet a lot of ppl envy you and a lot of ppl wish they had the money to be here legally, but since most people in other countries can't even afford shoes, why the hell would they waste the little money they do have in a visa, instead of for food and clothing for their kids.

It pisses me off that you make it sound so easy for people to just get up one day and decide, "Oh, I am going to get a Visa today, sure, my family might not have food, my child is terribly ill, but I must get a Visa so that by the time I get it, my damn kid won't even be alive anymore."

The way I see it, its not easy for other ppl, and thats why people want to come to America and make a better life for themselves, they don't care about the consequences. They are hard working honest people, well, the majority is, so why not find a way to let those ppl stay here and work legally?

Its unfair of you to think that everyone has it easy.....

Guess what? It is hard work and it isn't easy, but we play by the rules. I'll give you an example, my aunt came here 20 years ago as a nurse and after becoming a citizen herself has been working slowly to get my uncle and 3 cousins over here. 2 of my cousins are american citizens now, but my uncle and one of my cousins are not. So the family is divided, 3 of them live here in the USA and 2 live back in Asia. They are still working on moving the entire family over here LEGALLY. They have had to make sacrifices and work hard for a better life. And i'll tell you what...never once did they ever think to cheat the system.

blaaaargh

05-02-2008, 11:31 PM

but honestly, and this may be completely wrong, but I feel that the reason that immigration is such an issue, is because they speak spanish, and their english may not be so good

thats all

they are coming over in great enough numbers and settling in the same areas, and that is changing those areas

most people in the US don't have a problem with other immigration because those immigrants won't force them to change, but the large influx of hispanics can

i feel its as simple (and depressing) as that

I guess this might be the real issue that people have problems with. But this happens everywhere, I mean you can get by with just chinese in NE Toronto

Rain

05-02-2008, 11:45 PM

Although it probably happens everywhere, i don't think its as profound as it is in the lower parts of the US

you may be able to get by with just chinese in those areas, but knowing english would still help yeah

its almost the opposite in some of the lower states, knowing english might help, but you're better off speaking spanish

I truely think that the main reason this is an issue is because it is going to force current US citizens to change (in this case learn spanish) and that bothers them

LUV

05-02-2008, 11:59 PM

Blaaarg: Um, yeah, you might want to fix your DOUBLE POST, even though I do understand why you did that, its against the rules to double post.....sorry...

Ummm.. yeah, well, 20 years ago it wasn't as hard to come here legally as it is today. Things have changed, and so have many laws. I congratulate your aunt for doing things the right way, but you cannot expect everyone to do the same.

If you can afford it, then heck, do it the right way, but if you can't, what? Just die of hunger in your country? :hm I guess it all comes down to ppl and their need to survive.

As to the current immigration issue here, well, I say let the ones that are here now stay, as long as they don't have a type of criminal past, and re-enforce the border. Put as many ppl as needed there to make sure less get in illegally.

beautiful_death

05-03-2008, 01:00 AM

Like I said before, I dare not speak of my real views on immigration, since I work closely with Mexican Americans and if I dare say that I want more border control, they'll really cry foul and tell me to fuck off. (Seriously.) Legalize the ones that are already here, and keep the ones who are crossing away, LA is too overcrowded as it is. Make it easier for the ones who want to come here legally , they endure enough as it is.

Oh, and no more scapegoating on immigrants! I cannot stress that enough!

LUV

05-03-2008, 06:35 AM

BD: I agree with you, I live in San Diego, and GOD knows that its getting super crowded too, the problem with living 30 minutes away from Mexico :sweat

I just wish those damn politicians would make up their damn minds. I wish they made illegal immigrants here already legal, and just re-enforce the border. Can it really be that hard to do that? Who knows, maybe we are asking for too much. The only reason I get so heated with the immigration debate is b/c my parents came here as immigrants, and they worked hard to get their damn citizenship once they were here....so it really pisses me off when ppl act like they only come here to steal jobs, or do bad things.... its just annoying.

din0saurjr

05-04-2008, 09:14 AM

I agree with Luv and BD.

I'm an immigrant, and I had to get here through deceit. My mom had to pretend to be married to this guy she hired so that I'd get a visa, so I'd get the okay to join my mother. And people say, "oh your mom left you in the Dominican Republic, all by yourself with your grandma to suffer, for FIVE years?? what a BAD mom" you know what? i'm So glad she did. She went through sooooooo much crap to get where we are now. She scrubbed floors, she took care of other ppl's kids, she's done it all. Now look at her, she's working at a law firm making big-ass money. but all that didn't come without consequences. Our family can't even visit us. They can't get visas, not even visiting. my poor grandma who's there BLIND, having no one to care for her can't come live with us cos of this country's immigration laws. only way to get here is thru marriage and school. and you have to have money to go to school, so the only way to come is illegally. i don't blame illegals. more power to them. i hope they all get legalized soon.

Inevitable.Exit

05-04-2008, 03:32 PM

For those of you in America saying Legalize all the ones here now...are you kidding? Do you know how rape that would be on our economy if at one time we all of a sudden have to extend all our government programs to millions more people? It simply cannot be done. Especially since a large number of illegals would be below poverty line and would definitely be getting benefits and tax exclusions. Sorry but people who do something ILLEGAL should not be rewarded. At all. Why should they? Especially when they protest in AMERICA waving MEXICAN flags. Are you serious? My problem with immigration is most people come here (in America at least) and do not want to learn the American way. They settle in huge groups as did Europeans in the 1900s except now they want to retain their whole culuture, language etc.

Again Illegals should not be rewarded by being legalized. Immigration laws are stringent, yes, as they should be.

And no not all illegals should be automatically deported. I am not saying that, but they should definitely not gain citizenship. Those that wish to go through the process should be allowed. But Instant amnesty is ridiculous for many economic reasons.

bradc

05-04-2008, 03:53 PM

People are birds... Enjoy flocking to one place and another...

There are hundreds and thousand going in and out all the time from the airport and travel tourism; it's impossible to control what comes in and out of the immigration check and border, including mail parcels. Immigration is heavily regulated for this reason that one should have a citizenship from wherever one is from or dual citizenship. With illegal immigration, the government cannot do much to help that person because they are not registered anywhere and they are from nearby or far places; they are basically unknown; non-register immigrants can cause harm to society because the law system are not the same from where they came from. Any place can be call "home" but you have to register so they know where you came from, access to health and housing becomes easier.