Aizen or Yhwach? [Archive]

S41kop4thy

03-25-2013, 03:00 PM

Both Aizen and Bach are/were leaders of a very powerful army. They are highly amoral and do not care about the lives of anyone, including those of their subordinates. However, they display major differences in their goals, methods and character.

Goals
Bach: Revenge (from what I've gathered so far). He wants to cause the Shinigami equal pain to the one his people have experienced.
Aizen: Power, evolution, omniscience/omnipotence. He wants to kill and replace the Soul King and then change (for the better) and rule SS.

Methods
Bach: He is very brutal and fights mostly with strength instead of skill. He's also extremely violent, since his goal after all is to eliminate the Shinigami.
Aizen: He prefers to manipulate and trick and avoid direct fighting. Not that he's afraid of doing that since his skill and power are above almost everyone. However, unlike Bach, he doesn't kill unless he has to, since he plans to rule, not destroy.

Character
Bach: He seems like a typical military official, cold, strong and dominant. He is highly skilled in tactics and strategy (he tricked Yamamoto) but mostly relies on brute force. Also, he doesn't seem to be interested in anything besides destruction, like ruling SS or protecting the humans or exterminating the Hollows.
Aizen: Charismatic, genius, skilled in almost everything he ever set his eyes on, he is the reason Bleach exists.

As far as competency is concerned, I think they are equal in their respective goals. Aizen failed to kill, but that wasn't his plan. He did want to beat the SS, merge with the Hougyokou and go to Karakura Town though, which he did. The only reason he eventually failed is because he let Ichigo live and then conveniently helped him stay in the Dangai by destroying the Kototsu. Bach failed at capturing Ichigo and maybe killing more Captains, but his plan was to cause damage and retreat. He did succeed however in killing Yamamoto.

I personally prefer Aizen. To me, there's no comparison. Even if Bach is stronger (he may be), Aizen is the ultimate villain in terms of controlling the plot and defeating and causing emotional pain to the main character(s). He's far more exciting to watch. You know as well as I do that if (when?) he escapes things will go crazy. This isn't a feeling Bach can create. If Bach had appeared first and Aizen later, I think 99% of the fans would agree with me. It's only after Kubo made Aizen a butterfly that the fans wanted a different, maybe more conventional villain.

Serocco

03-25-2013, 03:06 PM

Aizen was a better conspirator, but he's an incredibly lackluster military tactician. His "genius" plan of defeating the Soul Society involved wiping out half of his army, just to trap four captains in Las Noches. He was exposed heavily during the Deicide arc, which revealed just how much of a spoiled brat he really is.

By contrast, Yhwach managed to outwit Yamamoto himself, tricking the dude into using up his Bankai on a decoy, stealing Ryujin Jakka and killing him for good. I'd say Yhwach was ultimately smarter. Aizen needs everything to go his way in order to succeed, which was only possible during the Soul Society arc.

S41kop4thy

03-25-2013, 03:45 PM

but he's an incredibly lackluster military tactician. His "genius" plan of defeating the Soul Society involved wiping out half of his army, just to trap four captains in Las Noches.
The way I see it, the sole use of the Espada was for them to die while weakening the Captains. They were never meant to kill them. If they did, all the better, but them dying didn't really change anything. Sure, that's arrogant of Aizen, but ultimately the only reason he lost was because he a)didn't kill Isshin and Ichigo (and Urahara) while they were lying helpless on the ground AND b)destroyed the Kototsu AND c)didn't retreat when he realised Ichigo was stronger. Notce how I said AND. If he hadn't made even ONE of those mistakes, he'd have been victorious.

He was exposed heavily during the Deicide arc, which revealed just how much of a spoiled brat he really is.
I'm not sure what you mean by exposed... :confused:

By contrast, Yhwach managed to outwit Yamamoto himself, tricking the dude into using up his Bankai on a decoy, stealing Ryujin Jakka and killing him for good.
Yamamoto himself? Please, the old man was borderline senile... And he didn't use a decoy, he used a friggin' power-cloning Quincy. "Same" thing Aizen did with Extinguir. And the only reason Aizen didn't kill Yama after his sacrificial kido was because he thought he was already dead. Sure, the theft of his bankai is something commendable, but it's not like Bach built the stealing badges himself.

I'd say Yhwach was ultimately smarter.
More practical, yes. More direct, definitely. But smarter, no. <- My opinion, anyway...

Aizen needs everything to go his way in order to succeed, which was only possible during the Soul Society arc.
What didn't go his way? The only unknown variable was Ichigo and it was Aizen's arrogance that helped him evolve...

Serocco

03-25-2013, 03:50 PM

A power-copying Quincy... that was used to distract Yamamoto. Ala, a decoy. Aizen never outwitted Yamamoto - he only unleashed Wonderweiss on him and left himself open for Itto Kaso. By contrast, Yhwach forced Yamamoto to use up his Bankai before stealing it.

Zanka No Tachi

03-25-2013, 03:54 PM

Aizen is smarter, Bach is heads on, hasty, and short tempered id say

Deathking

03-25-2013, 03:57 PM

Always and forever Aizen.

JushiroNIchigo

03-25-2013, 03:59 PM

Hard for me to judge at this point. I'd say Bach has the upper hand in the area of brute force, but Aizen has the upper hand when it comes to mental warfare. If they were ever to join forces, I'd say that probably only Ichigo could stop them, and he would need a lot of help as well.

S41kop4thy

03-25-2013, 04:06 PM

A power-copying Quincy... that was used to distract Yamamoto. Ala, a decoy.
I was trying to say that the decoy was so perfect that it's not strictly a decoy.

Aizen never outwitted Yamamoto - he only unleashed Wonderweiss on him and left himself open for Itto Kaso.
You mean, in battle. Because in strategy he had been outwitting/manipulating him for centuries.

By contrast, Yhwach forced Yamamoto to use up his Bankai before stealing it.
Why would Aizen need Yamamoto to go Bankai? He actually didn't even want him to go Shikai, hence Extinguir.

Franco

03-25-2013, 04:06 PM

Aizen wanted to change Soul Society. So far, Bach seems poised to destroy it. It's much, much harder to do the former, I think.

That, and Aizen's "death" and subsequent resurrection were some of the first, great twists in Bleach history.

Serocco

03-25-2013, 04:18 PM

S41: I used that to contrast how Aizen relied on sealing the flames of Ryujin Jakka within something that turned into a suicide bomber. Juhabach's method ultimately proved more effective; Aizen was still left open for an attack not too long after Yamamoto shielded the explosion himself.

If Juhabach wants to eradicate the Soul Society, why was he planning on leaving after Yamamoto was killed? If he really was out for revenge, the entire Seireitei would be gone.

Random Member

03-25-2013, 04:30 PM

If Juhabach wants to eradicate the Soul Society, why was he planning on leaving after Yamamoto was killed? If he really was out for revenge, the entire Seireitei would be gone.

1) It's possible that even if Aizen didn't do his mind tricks the "Schatten Bereich" wouldn't allow him to stay long enough to destroy SS completely.
2) He was afraid of the Royal Guard showing up.

S41kop4thy

03-25-2013, 04:32 PM

I used that to contrast how Aizen relied on sealing the flames of Ryujin Jakka within something that turned into a suicide bomber. Juhabach's method ultimately proved more effective; Aizen was still left open for an attack not too long after Yamamoto shielded the explosion himself.
True...

If Juhabach wants to eradicate the Soul Society, why was he planning on leaving after Yamamoto was killed? If he really was out for revenge, the entire Seireitei would be gone.
Because the Royal Guard was about to show up. At least that's what I understood.

Arkyle

03-25-2013, 04:35 PM

I think it is way too early to know for sure. We don't know what Bach is aiming for really, and we don't know anything about his past as well. We have just seen him kill an Arrancar and fight Yamamoto without saying much. Defending one over the other with "arguments" right now is just fanboyish.

Azley

03-25-2013, 04:43 PM

@Arkyle: True, arguing over it is pointless but the initial reason was "who is your favorite villain and why?" Nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't get into a "my opinion > your opinion".

For me: Aizen.
The reason is simple: I like smart villains more than those with brute strengh (not saying Juha is dumb or anything but Aizen is on a completely different level). Aizen isn't out to outright destroy and blindly kill each and everyone, he wants to change the world (thus wanting to become god himself so he can change the world to his believes). Tousen followed him because he wanted to go the way "with the least bloodshed". Aizen avoids fighting if it isn't necessary for his goals. If he can achive something with clever tactics, twists & thinking ahead he does and that's what I like about a villain.

...God beware if those two ever join forces...

gab00n

03-25-2013, 04:57 PM

I'm going to wait a while before I say who is better, Aizen could still surprise us with something and Bach has hardly begun what he has planned.

hollowman

03-25-2013, 05:24 PM

I voted for Aizen because his character had been explored enough for us to relate to him, his plans and his means to achieving them. I would like to re-visit this poll again when the story has ended, maybe then i would cast my vote differently??

For the immediate future, i expect Aizen to prison-break and join forces with the Shinigami against Vandenreich but secretly persevering towards his own agenda as well, only to fail....for good. I'm more intrigued as to the circumstances of his prison break. Who's likely to break him out??

wanda lensherr

03-25-2013, 05:27 PM

I also voted for aizen becuz well i have an bit of an favoritism with him. However he has done a lot for us to reflect on so he isnt completely use less. I feel that he would be much much more suitable to end the manga on i mean as the last villain and all but thats my humble take on it. Somehow i feel that juha wont stick around much longer :eek:

Tommo2304

03-25-2013, 05:53 PM

I voted Aizen. I kind of have to, the man is my favourite character.

Having said that, Yhwach has really only just begun. Aizen 'commanded' an unruly mob. Yhwach seems to have a staunchly iron-fisted rule over a group of very threatening people who seem to coordinate well together. I think Yhwach has an amazing presence onscreen and he so far has stolen every scene he's in. Maybe the same can be said for Aizen, though for the most part they are considerably different characters. One steps out to the front lines almost immediately with a solid focus in mind, whereas the other remained in the shadows for quite some time.

Both of their powers are extremely impressive, though Aizen relies, for the most part, on trickery and deception, whereas Bach seems to be outright brutal, with a monstrously overwhelming fighting style that looks awesome on the page. Aizen is certainly more charming and perhaps more interesting (as most interesting things happen in Bleach with Aizen around), but Yhwach seems to be being built up to the ultimate villain of Bleach. Monstrously powerful and dominating, huge presence and sense of danger around him (plus he has an awesome design) and he is smart enough to lead a successful Blitz on Soul Society.

I do have to go with Aizen, for now, though since he has essentially been the lifeblood of the series for a long time, but since Yhwach has done nothing but impress so far, let's give him a chance.

Jove

03-25-2013, 06:00 PM

Like it has already been said before in this thread, Aizen managed to alter Bach's perception of time in the period where they were speaking together.

And in terms of intelligence, Aizen is on par with Urahara. We really have not seen that level of intelligence from Bach... yet.

The reason I believe Bach and his gang were able to crush Soul Society was due to them having the ability to seal Bankais and also had the element of surprise on his side. No one saw the Quincys coming from a mile away.

On the other hand, Aizen did manage to cause some havoc himself but ultimately fell short due to his destiny, being defeated by the main character.

ReiWen

03-25-2013, 06:11 PM

Bach.... any time day or nigh, if I have to choose Bach will always be the one.

When Aizen was first introduced as a villain I thought that he have potential and I actualy couldnt wait to see what kind of a villain he will be.... even if I never liked his appearance.

However the FKT arc destroyed everything.
At this poin when I hear about Aizen the only thing that comes to my mind is "Just as planed". I really barelly remember anything about him.
I hate such characters. They are "inteligent" yet we nevers see how they came up with their "planes". Those characters dont require any creativity from the author. No matter what someone do agains them it will be always "just as planed" and they can be retconned at any time with simple "everything I said erlier was a lie.... and acording to my plan".
He is treated as some kind of god by many fans and when I look at him I see a guy who "fought" many captains some of them were exhausted and some pretty much half dead. Its not a big feat imho. Than he got exhausted after 5(?) minutes of fighting Isshin. He "defeated" Yama, but without combined power of 2 Hougyokus he wouldnt be able to do anything special against Yama. His god like Zanpaktou dont really help in making him look more impresive especialy when Kubo wasnt even creative enough to make a good weakness for KS and with how Bleach works he really could came up with some good weakness and he really wount need to much creativity to do that.
As of right now he showed what he got and who he is and having him any more than necessary(Bankai) is pointless. Not to mention that almost all flashback in Bleach( Rukia, Renji, Kira. Momo, Hisagi, Kaien, Gin, Rangiku, Isshin, Masaki,Urahar, Yoruichi, Tessai, The Visoreds.... are about Aizen and his hollowfication experiments. Really not creative. At this point there is almost no one who can have some history with the Quincies in the story.
This guy have some big problems. His self imposed loneliness and unability to adapt to the situation that push him to create situations a hundred years in advance so that he could be " the coolest guy in the school" is really sad.
I hope that he now understand that no matter how good his plan can be he cant plan everything. Because if he is still the god he think he is he will end up like he did before, crying like a little kid that some other kid is cooler than him.

Bach.... he is weird. I cant yet tell what he is thinking. However he is cruel, ruthless, he make plans, but he knows that not everything needs to go acording to plan and have the ability to change his plan at any moment depending on the circumstances. Ist personality whe fighting is cool he sint just some mistermind, he is also a true soldier. His power isnt so broken so his fights will actualy be really good to watch. Its much harder to predict what he will do.... and who he will kill next.
His way of defeating Yama is better than Aizne's since it actualy have something to do with Bachs own power.
I cant really say much as of right now, but he is really way more intersting that Aizen ever was IMHO. Also he looks ay cooler.
But I hate his name. I will always call him Bach

Aizen

03-25-2013, 07:44 PM

A fair response to this question, can't possibly be given until this plays out and we see where both were actually going with their goals all along. What we see, isn't always what it appears to be.

If we went off success of what we know up to this point, it would go to Yhwach.

AmiciaRai

03-25-2013, 07:55 PM

Aizen all the way!

Sure, he turned into a pissed off butterfly at the end, but I absolutely loved him as a villain!

Bach to meet looks like a washed up villain. I dunno, I just don't like him or care for his past. However, he hasn't been in the storyline for a long time yet, so who knows maybe I'll grow to like him as villain.Never as much as Aizen though.

Franco

03-25-2013, 07:56 PM

If Juhabach wants to eradicate the Soul Society, why was he planning on leaving after Yamamoto was killed? If he really was out for revenge, the entire Seireitei would be gone.

I'm of the opinion that if Bach was really out to destroy Soul Society, he'd first try to demoralize it. Take everyone's hope and squash out that hope like it was nothing. This is why he took out Yamamoto and left. Besides avoiding confrontation with the Royal Guard, I'd like to think it was because he wanted to leave the rest of the shinigami in a scattered state and in fear of when the next attack is going to be.

He's also after Ichigo, who Bach knows as a War Potential and Soul Society's Jesus Christ. If he takes Ichigo next, the Gotei will have lost its biggest trump card - especially since Japanese fiction shows that a main character losing his mind and crossing over to the Dark Side is never a good thing. :D

Howling

03-25-2013, 08:46 PM

Need to see more of Yhwach to put him above Aizen,however i gotta say Yhwach's "Are you perhaps a prophet?"> Aizen's "Keikaku doori" any day.

Diggs

03-25-2013, 10:35 PM

Aizen!!!

Sariniste

03-25-2013, 10:41 PM

Both Aizen and Bach are/were leaders of a very powerful army. They are highly amoral and do not care about the lives of anyone, including those of their subordinates. However, they display major differences in their goals, methods and character.

Goals
Bach: Revenge (from what I've gathered so far). He wants to cause the Shinigami equal pain to the one his people have experienced.
Aizen: Power, evolution, omniscience/omnipotence. He wants to kill and replace the Soul King and then change (for the better) and rule SS.

Methods
Bach: He is very brutal and fights mostly with strength instead of skill. He's also extremely violent, since his goal after all is to eliminate the Shinigami.
Aizen: He prefers to manipulate and trick and avoid direct fighting. Not that he's afraid of doing that since his skill and power are above almost everyone. However, unlike Bach, he doesn't kill unless he has to, since he plans to rule, not destroy.

Character
Bach: He seems like a typical military official, cold, strong and dominant. He is highly skilled in tactics and strategy (he tricked Yamamoto) but mostly relies on brute force. Also, he doesn't seem to be interested in anything besides destruction, like ruling SS or protecting the humans or exterminating the Hollows.
Aizen: Charismatic, genius, skilled in almost everything he ever set his eyes on, he is the reason Bleach exists.

As far as competency is concerned, I think they are equal in their respective goals. Aizen failed to kill, but that wasn't his plan. He did want to beat the SS, merge with the Hougyokou and go to Karakura Town though, which he did. The only reason he eventually failed is because he let Ichigo live and then conveniently helped him stay in the Dangai by destroying the Kototsu. Bach failed at capturing Ichigo and maybe killing more Captains, but his plan was to cause damage and retreat. He did succeed however in killing Yamamoto.

I personally prefer Aizen. To me, there's no comparison. Even if Bach is stronger (he may be), Aizen is the ultimate villain in terms of controlling the plot and defeating and causing emotional pain to the main character(s). He's far more exciting to watch. You know as well as I do that if (when?) he escapes things will go crazy. This isn't a feelin Bach can create. If Bach had appeared first and Aizen later, I think 99% of the fans would agree with me. It's only after Kubo made Aizen a butterfly that the fans wanted a different, maybe more conventional villain.

^^This.

Superb essay, S41kop4thy. You've said it better than I could. Factually speaking, over the course of 500+ chapters, Kubo has created far more depth and complexity in Aizen's character than Yhwach's. Brute force isn't everything.

Also, remember that even while bound in prison, Aizen still pwned Yhwach. :D

And in his most recent interview, Kubo stated that Aizen was still necessary to the story. :)

WhiteChocolate

03-25-2013, 10:48 PM

Juhabach
He seems like he may show different settings, and aspects.

99.9% Of Aizen is just sitting, or standing, around smirking. That got boring at the SS arc end for me. And he just seemed too perfect. Yeah, planned Ichigo brth, puberty, and the circle of life. ect.

Don't care for Aizen at all. Quite boring

taydev

03-25-2013, 11:10 PM

I haven't seen enough of Yhwach to compare, but so far, I have to say Aizen for the reasons S41kop4thy pointed out.

Kuna9613

03-26-2013, 12:08 AM

Bach, because the Quincy race really interests me, and he's at the heart of it!

I loved Aizen as a villain, but it's time we have a direct genocidal maniac to stir things up in this final arc, it will make the war more like a war.

Raekai

03-26-2013, 12:37 AM

I still think it's a little too early to tell.

You're essentially asking me to compare a character who has had his run and his major part of the story against someone we still haven't seen much of and know very little about. What if it came out that Bach was the one who was actually manipulating Aizen? I feel like a lot of people would jump ship (as long as they looked past the ridiculousness) because that would make him "smarter". We still haven't seen enough of Bach for me to tell.

Here's an analogy. You have a two-term president who was one of the best in history and now that he has served two terms, a new guy comes in. Now you're asking me to compare a president that I have known for eight years against one who has only been in office for a few months. The answer is obvious.

SosukeAizen

03-26-2013, 03:47 AM

This is one of those trick questions.. . You want to answer, but no matter how you chose your wording, or how detailed you personal opinion is. The ends won't really justify the means.

Which is better you ask? Can they even truly be compared?

NGC 602

03-26-2013, 08:19 AM

To butcher Tolstoy; "Heroes are all alike; every villain is villainous in their own way".

I really can't choose between the two, there's potential for both of them to be an interesting final antagonists. Maybe I'll be able to call it once Bleach is finished for good, until then I'm just happy we get two such contrasting villainous driving forces. Actually it would also be rather fun to have them go up against each other.

Vasto Lorde

03-26-2013, 09:17 AM

i voted for aizen,i really like when aizen being the main villian because he's smart,unpredictable :cool:

jofosho999

03-26-2013, 09:49 AM

Aizen is still the better villain for now. Aizen has more exposure to us in his right pinkie than Bach has so far in this series. And even now, we are still getting to see Aizen more in these flashbacks, which..by the time this flashback arc is over, we would've probably seen more of Aizen than Bach in this arc :p. I say Bach is alot scarier than Aizen, when he finger decapitated those arrancars, and ruthlessly sliced Yama in half. But Aizen is just more fun to watch with all his plots and cool demeanor. The FKT arc could've went better though, he was overpowered by then and never put Ichigo under hypnosis. Even if he didn't feel the need to, he should've anyways given his careful nature.

B. Haddrell

03-26-2013, 09:55 AM

At the moment I can`t say. It is like comparing between an apple and an orange. They are different but both good and enjoyable.

I need much more information about Bach before I can make my mind up. I can see that both use people as disposable tools. In Aizen`s case this also included his closest allies. With Bach, this remains to be seen. Haschwald and Bach seem to have an interesting, closer relationship. Bach burned some Stern Ritters who came too close when he used his powers but it could be that Bach just wanted to teach them a lesson to be more careful next time. If he wanted to, he could have killed them.

Both of them are villains no matter what justifications they see and it definitely applies to the methods they use. Nevertheless, I have more sympathy for Bach: The Shinigami slaughtered his people. But there comes a time when who started what is irrelevant because this spiral of revenge and counter-revenge has to stop. Bach but I think also Yamamoto didn`t see that.

The relationship between the Vandenreich but also the Quincies in general and the Shinigami is entering a new phase now that Shunsui is Yamamoto`s successor. I think how much of a villain Bach really is will be revealed soon.

I could also see that Bach and Aizen are both interested in entering the Royal Realm and reach the Spirit King. My bold prediction is, they will end up working together because at least until they reach their goal, it is in both their interest.

my2kb22

03-26-2013, 09:55 AM

Aizen is aizen... no need to elaborate what he did, he even manage to tricked bach's time perception whilst in his prison, though we don't know how he did it hopefully if we see him in his current state it'll be revealed.... plus in kubo's interview in germany he stated that aizen cannot die because he still has a major role in bleach, whilst bach we still don't know his real motivation except for revenge for the quincies..... we don't know his ultimate goal?........

jofosho999

03-26-2013, 10:12 AM

my2kb22

03-26-2013, 10:39 AM

^Aizen can still be the final villain for all we know. This is the perfect opportunity for him to strike SS where it hurts, and that's the Royal Realm. This whole war can all be a diversion for Aizen to face the Soul King once again. Just a possibility..I just wonder if Aizen knew about Bach before this invasion.

Aizen is a troll machine... he knows almost everything in bleach hehe....there is a reason why he could manipulate bach's perception of time after just a short meeting with him.....

jofosho999

03-26-2013, 11:10 AM

Aizen just by talking was able to fool Bach's sense of time, unless his hypnosis powers have been infused in Aizen himself, which is pretty deadly. I still would like to see more of Bach though..we haven't seen him for too long now, perhaps he will appear in this flashback or so (I really hope we do actually see a flashback of him fighting Yama 2000 years or so ago.)

MugetsuOfTheEnd

03-26-2013, 11:10 AM

I'm going for Yhwach on the sole basis that he doesn't dick around

Aizen will use every trick in the bookto fustrate his enemy and strike them down with one well placed hit, Yhwach will blow your fucking head off and taunt you about it.

And there's the basis of Yhwach just being intimidating. I mean even his name! "YHWACH", it's on the same level as Voldemort!

Shame I got no bloody idea how to pronounce it

And the appearance...

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/15800000/Sosuke-Aizen-aizen-15810350-640-480.jpg

YAH WHUTEVAR

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120919130710/bleach/pl/images/5/52/R508_Yhwach.png

JESUS CHRIST! GET THAT THING AWAY FROM ME!!!!

Plus, this is the final arc, Aizen's gonna die here

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8tr9aoSdw1qlvm0ao1_500.gif

onimarutakeshi

03-26-2013, 11:34 AM

Aizen is still the baddest of them all. And I truly believe that we haven't seen the end of Aizen yet.

Asuna Yuki

03-26-2013, 01:26 PM

As in terms of villains. Bach is better at being a villain. Since he is ruthless, just relies on pretty much brute force and out for revenge. But that's sort of run of the mill for me. Not that it is bad, just those three things seem very common. Not that it makes him bad or anything.

But Aizen was sort of different. He was evil, but not ruthless. Like case in point with Grimmjow, he let him live. He didn't "deal" death blows to Hitsugaya (twice), Shunsui, Harribel, Shinji, Soifon and everyone else during his fake town battle. That's a bit more sadistic, in my books. Yeah you could say "he" did try to kill everyone up in that list. But he didn't kill them completely, weather it for the plot or not. This gave him a slight redeeming quality.

Plus Aizen hit at home, which makes him even a better big bad. It's very rare to have some one that smart as a villain. Yeah he was cocky, but at least he could back it up. Plus we still don't even know what he truly wanted to plan to do. He was just overall better than Bach as a villain. But to me Bach totally fits the term more.

Giusel

03-26-2013, 01:48 PM

Aizen is still the baddest of them all. And I truly believe that we haven't seen the end of Aizen yet.

Yeah, I agree. Obviously, we didn't see very much of Juhabach at all. That's why I can't judge who is the best.
But looking to what we know about them for now, I think these two villains had very different goals.

Aizen was trying to improve himself, becoming a being above every other lifeforms in the (Bleach) world, and was willing to dispose of anyone to achieve his goal. Gin, Tosen, all the Arrancar army, were made only to be pawns on his plan, expendables at best.

On the other hand, Juhabach surely is cruel, cold-hearted, and willing to dispose of some of his men to achieve his goal (whatever it is), but all in all I see him more as a warlord, leading his army (which he cares for, as much as an evil overlord could care about his men) to the victory, and using more group strategy than "send the cannon fodder, than show up and do the rest with your sheer powers"

Zanka No Tachi

03-26-2013, 04:16 PM

Aizen could have verywell killed every1 in Gotei13, but he did not want to, with the exception of Yamaji
He preferred to destroy ppl mentally which is worse than physical damage

onimarutakeshi

03-26-2013, 07:10 PM

Aizen wanted to rule everything and everyone -- Soul Society, Hueco Mundo and probably the Ice World (we actually didnt know if that was his Phase 4 in his total plans-- Phase 3 was to enter the SS King'd Realm. But from what we know about Aizen he practically has back up plans to the back up plans so him caged under Gotei 13 I think will be short-lived.

SRDTL

03-26-2013, 10:10 PM

Aizen is my favorite villain out of everything i have read/watched, although Juha Bach(im not going to call him Yhwach, i do not even know how to begin pronouncing that) is in the right path to succeeding him.

It is way too early to say. Not only for Juha Bach, but for Aizen aswell, since we have yet to see more of him.

onimarutakeshi

03-26-2013, 10:38 PM

jofosho999

03-26-2013, 11:01 PM

Juha is most likely like Yama. Except that he's the bad guy in this case. Both Juha and Yama rely on brute strength and power to defeat their opponents. Even if Aizen can trick both of them through hypnosis, both Juha and Yama could probably still beat Aizen (Juha using blut to resist any attacks aizen throws at him or Yama using flames to cover himself up). In any case, Aizen still toyed around with Bach, basically telling him that "you might be the main villain now, but I'm coming back, just you wait, you are nothing compared to me" lol

Serocco

03-26-2013, 11:55 PM

Aizen made Jubahach forget the time by talking his ear off. It's as simple as that. There was nothing supernatural about it. Nothing that Aizen did in particular. They just talked a bit more than Juhabach noticed.

SuirenShinju

03-27-2013, 03:31 AM

Aizen - he pisses me off more XD

jofosho999

03-27-2013, 09:29 AM

And after the latest chapter, there will be more votes for Aizen :P lol we sure do miss the old Aizen when he was his tricky backstabbing self and not like his butterfly form. Perhaps he just got tired of always having to trick others, evade attacks, he wanted to be more powerful so that he would literally be a god so that nothing could stop him.

MiyamotoKenpachi

03-27-2013, 08:15 PM

Bach....i couldn't care less about aizen

IchigoKurosaki

03-28-2013, 11:04 AM

harahara

03-28-2013, 12:22 PM

As the manga stands now, it's not quite a fair comparison. But if I had to pick between the both atm, it'd be Aizen.

Juha is potentially a better "villain" due to the simple fact that he portrays such role to the dot (just his looks are intimidating, contrasting with Aizen being quite the "pretty boy")Heck, just his old age makes him a whole lot more intimidating than Aizen. As Senjumaru the Royal Guard stated (if i recall correctly) "Aizen is the personification of evil...but these Quincies are far worse"

In my opinion, Juha will surpass Aizen in the "villain" category but Aizen will remain a better written character since I don't think Juha would pull a move as dramatic to a manga reader as Aizen did during the SS arc.

Mcnubins

03-28-2013, 02:20 PM

Bach is not like Aizen, so it is not easy to compare. Aizen said the betrayal you do not see is the most terrifying. This is true but Bach, isn't betraying anyone. I have to say that I would be more terrified to know that my destruction was coming, and there was nothing I could do about it.

ReiWen

03-28-2013, 05:36 PM

I would have to pick Aizen over Bach. I've just always liked Aizen's character and he really is pretty freakin' smart. Time and time again he has shown us just how smart he is. Also, Kubo said Aizen will be playing a pretty big role in this arc, as to who he'll side with or whatever, I think he'll side with the Gotei 13, because as he said, he could "never work under someone else". I still maintain that the whole Bleach series was all part of Aizen's plan. I believe he'll be the main villain throughout the entire thing to the very end.

I also think something huge about Aizen is going to be revealed in this arc.

But I digress, I do like Aizen better.

The only chapter when Aizen actualy showed that he is smart is in the new chapter since he showed that he can adapt to the situation. All ther times are just as I call it "half asspulls" since all those "plans" that are "created" by "inteligent" characters like Urahara and Aizen have no really foreshadwoing. Those characters are just convincing plot devices when something needs to be done. At the end of the day its all predictable since evertone knows that the just like the MC will pull the right thing out of their arses at the right time and in most cases it wont ever be explained how the came up with their "plans". This is the problem for me in many mangas. Almost no one can create a characters that is truly INTELIGENT.
Od cours everyone can like what they want, but I will never understand why people like certain things. Its like with singers and actors. People scream when they see one and I dont understand why.... and I never will.... my brain just works differently

BlackSoul

03-28-2013, 06:13 PM

aizen or bach (yhwach sounds stupid, I'll stay with "bach"), IMO there's a clear anwer: bach

the main reason would be because he's not as annoying as aizen with overly long speeches on how awesome he is.
aizen started off really nice back during SS but then during HM and especially later on in FKT his endless speeches and stupid "twists" of all being his plan all along just got annoying. even now in this flashback I have to endure his smug smile *sigh*.

bach on the other hand doesn't have a habit of preaching to ppl on how great he is, he's not using mind rape and he acts when he can.
when ichigo want back to HM he immediately went for SS since ichigo was away. no long-winded plans or anything, he saw an opportunity and took it. he also has great physical strenght which is just refreshing after the whole aizen orderal. I'd even go so far as to say kubo deliberately made bach as different from aizen as possible and that's exactly wha I like about this villain.

now I only hope bach suddendly won't develope a stupid freudian excuse like being lonley or similar like a certain butterfly addict did.

Majin

03-29-2013, 01:13 AM

I'll probably always like Aizen better based off of his initial reveal alone. Yhwach is awesome but I want to see more of him.

GodsGift88

03-29-2013, 01:42 AM

Aizen and Bach/Ywach are completely different types of 'villains'.

Bach/Ywach seems to the be villain of the Soul Society as a whole and the HISTORY of Shinigami but more specifically Yamamoto himself.

In the small screentime that he has had, he portrayed some ridiciulous brute force (loved the way he manhandled Ichigo actually!)

Quite strategic/adaptive war mentality (storming into SS when Ichigo and co. brashly stormed into HM; he exploited a flaw of Ichigo that has been shown throughout the manga HOWEVER Aizen never took advantage of it because as he always says 'it was all apart of the plan' which ill get to after Bach/Ywach)

Outstanding leadership skills and a fearful hold on his VR army (destroying Ivan for fulfilling his role and beheading the byakuya looking VR member for being a 'prophet' which was such a brilliant and hilarious line haha)

He has shown more battle tactics with the Bankai Stealing Medallion that Quilgue hinted to Ichigo that the original Quincy feared Bankai.

Wide range of knowing your enemy where he sent Ivan to test out Ichigo, the masked VR to send a message to Yama to distract SS but send the message that the VR army is back, took control of HM (still think theres a reason he has Harra shackled up); his 5 War Potentials; sending in Royd Lloyd knowing how Yama would act in order try and recruit Aizen (laughable but still gets props from me) and get ZnT
Those are more of his action based traits that are quite impressive in his short introduction into this magnificent story we know as Bleach. He leads and controls with a heavy hand striking fear into his own armys heart and holds brutality, power, and uniqueness to a high standard as how he praised the Old Gotei for being brutal monsters, and specifically Yama for being a demon with the sword.
However at the moment we arent 100% sure on what his drive is; yes we know revenge seems to be the driving point and a huge indicator from his speech to Yama as well as the way he wanted to destroy every shinigami in SS. but i still think there is an overall different scheme he is trying to achieve, but then again i may be wrong and it is simply revenge driven but more along the lines of revenge on the system as a whole. like i said he seems to be the villain of SS/Yama. he is a wonderful change of pace and a great villain already but i dont think he is Bleach's villain.

Aizen, unlike Bach/Ywach, is Bleach's villain. What I mean by that is that he isnt solely SS/Yama's rival/villain (like Bach/Ywach) but the entirety of this manga, Bleach's villain. He, from this flashback, seems to literally have his hands in everything including Bach/Ywach and the VR. Aizen is Bleach as Kubo is telling us now from the Isshin/Masaki/Ichigo origin story.

Intelligence is Aizen. I dont get how people can be annoyed by Aizen. His 'long-winded speeches' as everyone complains about i feel are going to actually come into play very much so in this final arc. They are intelligent speeches that give a lot of insight into Aizen but I believe into the Bleach universe. His speech to Shinji about how Kings & GODS are made may come into play this arc in the sense of the SK. He wanted to become GOD in order to change the way SS and most likely the Bleach Universe itself worked. He may have even given us hints as to how the SK itself was created which lends to his intelligence into the Bleach verse: Hogyouku/Transcendence/SK/RG/Souls and hybrids as well as the inner workings of shinigami arts, hollow powers, and most probably quincy arts as to how the origins arc seems to be leading. Aizen's intelligence has influenced bleach in so many ways its almost unbelievable but still very well documented and highlighted by Kubo.

Power is Aizen as well. Unlike Bach/Ywach & Yama's brute force/overwhelming power Aizen has an elegeant dominance in regards to his power. KS is definitely the most haxxed out zan (with the user) there is in Bleach and as a power however Aizen without the zan as we were shown in FKT is ridiculous. Taking on Masked Shikai (Love) and Bankai (Komma) at the same time and blocking it with a single sword; 1-fingering Ichigo's Bankai (yes newly founded, none the less powerful enough to dominant Byakuya one of the most well versed Shinigami in Bleach); dispatching, imo, top 3 haxxed out Shinji shikai like it was nothing; crushed Espada #6, Grimm with just pure reaitsu; dismantling Rose like it was nothing; crushed Komma with just a hado #90 no incantation; Aizen is just a brute in a different right. His power is overwhelming; he dismantled all of the Gotei 13 and Vaizards by himself; this isnt including his Transcendence metamorphasis & all of that but i wont include that since that is almost another Aizen.

Know your enemy fits him better than Bach/Ywach by far because of his intelligence and war tactics. This ties all back to Aizen's speeches, more specifically the speech about Ichigo. His speech about just as planned and knowing Ichigo from birth is NOT BS anymore. It wasnt a troll or an asspull Kubo used but I believe the very foundation of Bleach not just about Isshin/Masaki/Ichigo but I believe the VR/Bach, the SK/RG/Transcendence as well. He 'plans' everything because well, he's a smart villain in that he isnt like Bach/Ywach where he goes on the front lines. Bach/Ywach seems to have been raised/born during the war times of the Old Gotei/SS enviornment where Aizen was in the already established (and SK/RG/Balance infected new world) SS as we know today. He understands each and every player in his plan, except for maybe Urahara since he is such a wild card. He knew his personnel, like a great scouting coach understanding what is in character and what is not in character. Ichigo's development by itself is proof enough of this; he raised Ichigo behind the scenes since before he was even born! Brilliant haha. Just look at how everything was set up from Rukia going to Ichigo; Byakuya/Renji being sent w/ new tech; Urahara and the shattered shaft; sending Gin to push him back so he has to use Kuukaku's cannon; to the Renji rematch; Kenpachi confrontation; Byakuya Bankai battle/mask development; Ulq scouting of Ichi; Grimm battles/mask dominance; Ulq & Hell Knight (Black Hollow) which I believe was when he first achieved Transcendence which was why he wanted Ichigo to almost attack him and absorb/devour his reaitsu to give him the jump start into his Transcendent metamorphasis; he orchestrated Ichigo's existence! Brilliant. Not to mention WW and his dubious toppling of Yama for his war tactics; the Esapada and Arrancar to simply slow down the Gotei 13 so he can fully merge with the Hougyouku and begin his transormation

Manipulation skills vs. Leadership Skills is what seperates him from Bach/Ywach as well. Doesnt put him above or below just separates the two. Bach/Ywach is a pure war general at its finest where Aizen is more of a political schemer/President. This ability and his ability to mask his true self made Bleach what it was with one of the most well-written manga arcs and manga twists ever in manga (imo) with his death/ascension to villain-hood! But maybe the most significant part of that was in the recent arc which was over Bach/Ywach himself in that he threw off his senses so much he inadvertently saved Ichigo/SS and the balance (for now). But the fact he was able to do this, to the best of our knowlege, without his zanpaktou powers which i personally believe he has become KS himself now. But with him doing that, for me, it gives him a step above Bach/Ywach in that the villains went head to head and Aizen won as of now, in terms of speaking/tactics/manipulation.

but I choose Aizen because he is Bleach's villain but i do believe it is an unfair comparison/contrast since Aizen is one of Kubos best written characters, way more screentime, and most likely the true villain/anti-hero of Bleach.

Panther King

03-29-2013, 01:57 AM

Raekai

03-29-2013, 05:08 AM

Aizen has been the villain for far longer, so I guess it's not really a fair comparison. I still think I prefer Aizen as the Big Bad though. The way he's been shown to have manipulated everything, have so much influence, and always seemed to be seven steps ahead of his opponents, he just really clicked as the main antagonist for me.

I do think Yhwach has better presense though. Aizen's deceptive looks gave him a certain villainous aura, but Yhwach just looks far more terrifying.

I agree with what you say about Yhwach's presence. It's one reason that I am starting to like him more. Aizen had his run and I was in love with the idea of his character for such a long time. I love villains! Aizen was great, but it's Yhwach's time to shine. Honestly, if Yhwach came out and said "Aizen was all a part of MY plan" then I would just laugh at Aizen.

Aizen didn't get the Royal Guard. Yhwach shows up once, kills the Captain Commander, and here come the Royal Guard. While I agree with the above sentiment that Aizen is Bleach's villain, I definitely think that Yhwach has the potential to steal that title. He called Ichigo his son born in darkness. That seems so Aizen-ish to me. Also, he seems pretty set on taking out the Royal Guard in my opinion. I mean... He has to. Those are some kickass Shinigami, and I have no doubt that he took them into consideration. I mean... Duh. He mentions them. I feel like the Soul King is probably at least partial to Shinigami so it makes sense that Yhwach might want to take him out!

However, Aizen is getting screen time again... So this will be interesting. Like I said before though, I think Yhwach will have some role in this too though. He calls Ichigo his son born in darkness for crying out loud! He's obviously been interested in Ichigo for quite some time too.

Izoto

03-30-2013, 04:36 AM

Aizen, by light years.

Deathking

04-01-2013, 09:28 AM

Aizen is by far my favorite character, but let´s be honest here, Yhwach is just better.

Aizen has planned for over a 100 years, he knows everything and everyone and yet failed because Urahara circumvented him. Juha Bach has planned and accomplished his goals. He killed Yamamoto, and destroyed Soul Society as we know it. As far as i am concern, Yhwach is smarter than Aizen just because his plans and methods worked and Aizen did not. Yhwach was much more prepared than Aizen, he´s a much better military leader, better strategist, more powerful, and more charismatic. Yes more charismatic. Aizen´s followers follow him because of his power and they fear him, while Yhwach´s followers follow him because they idolize him, worship him, follow him voluntarily.

Aizen is my favorite but the manga showed us that Yhwach is the better villain.

jofosho999

04-01-2013, 09:57 AM

Aizen's goal was to reach the royal realm, kill the soul king, and take his rightful place upon the throne of the king. It took an overly hax Ichigo and Urahara to bring him down. And honestly, he was toying aroudn with Ichigo, had he just killed him before he went into the dangai, this arc would be very much different. Aizen never wanted to kill anyone, he just wanted to rule everyone. And got pretty damn close defeating every single person out there except the main character of course.

Yhwach's goal is to destroy Soul Society and avenge the quincies. So far, he's only partially accomplished that. He killed yama. Which I'll admit, is a much greater accomplishment than whatever Aizen did. But that's all for now. We don't know how that second war will pan out and in the end, Yhwach may very well be second fiddle to another villain.

Aizen is bleach. He is the better villain because all his actions have affected every single character out there. His influence is far and wide, and since we haven't seen enough of Bach, its an unfair comparison. But as of right now, its clearly Aizen being the better villain due to having more screen time, his influence all over the Bleach universe, and his deceiving and hax shikai which has played a part in mind fucking alot of characters. And in the end, he was the 2nd most powerful character behind Ichigo with the Hougyoku.

Giusel

04-01-2013, 11:11 AM

BlackSoul

04-01-2013, 11:26 AM

Actually, some characters idolized Aizen too, like Ulquiorra, Harribel or Tosen. But surely Juha did a better job than Aizen accomplishing his goal. Probably because he do not scruples about killing his enemy.

nah, I'd say the only one who truly idolized aizen was hinamori. an look how well that ended for her...
the ohters respected aizen based on his tremendous power.

I think one reason why bach accomplished more is that he saw an opportunity and took it. when ichigo came to HM he immediatly commenced the attack on SS. he didn't plan it to be then, but ichigo was away and it was a good opportunity so he took it. he also killed the CC and others and didn't play mind games or dealt only flesh wounds like aizen did.
you could say wherever aizen was annoyingly gloating around bach simply went for the kill which then leads to success and a great scar upon SS's history.

jofosho999

04-01-2013, 08:15 PM

BlackSoul

04-01-2013, 09:29 PM

Aizen never wanted to kill anyone except for Yama. The fact Bach accomplished that while Aizen didn't gives Bach a headsup on that. But still, there's more to a villain then who he or she kills. Aizen never wanted to kill anyone really, just to rule over everyone.

uhm, wrong?
aizen killed, for example, all of central 46. then he killed a lot of nameless shinigami during the course of TBtP and also even earlier rukongai citizens when he needed parts of souls to create his own hyogoku. he never showed any hesistation upon killing someone. sure, those were nameless characters but they did die by his hands or his comands.
he also killed gin and tousen, named characters, so there.

but I do agree that the killing account does not indicate wheter or not someone is a good villain.

harahara

04-01-2013, 09:33 PM

That is actually a good point. Aizen had Wonderweiss + Hogyoku + trap for Yamamoto to self destruct and yet couldn't kill him.

Juha Bach comes in with 1 tool and kills Yamamoto swiftly.

S41kop4thy

04-01-2013, 10:17 PM

That is actually a good point. Aizen had Wonderweiss + Hogyoku + trap for Yamamoto to self destruct and yet couldn't kill him.
After Yama's sacrificial kido, I think Aizen thought he was dead. Otherwise he would have just stabbed his unconscious body and easily killed him...

uhm, wrong?
aizen killed, for example, all of central 46. then he killed a lot of nameless shinigami during the course of TBtP and also even earlier rukongai citizens when he needed parts of souls to create his own hyogoku. he never showed any hesistation upon killing someone. sure, those were nameless characters but they did die by his hands or his comands.
he also killed gin and tousen, named characters, so there.

but I do agree that the killing account does not indicate wheter or not someone is a good villain.
He killed for two reasons: 1)Because it was necessary so that he could forward his plan and 2)Because he didn't care about the characters (Rukongai fodder). He didn't kill the Gotei 13 though, because he wanted them to be his army after he became SK.

jofosho999

04-01-2013, 10:19 PM

A sacrificial kidou that only destroyed Yama's arm..some spell that is, haha..that's beside the point.

I don't think Aizen had time to stab him actually since Ichigo attacked him right after, then Isshin came. Aizen really got no breaks in that FKT battle, he needs to be more of a militant mind rather than thinking he can take everyone out (unless that was part of his plan to evolve)

harahara

04-01-2013, 10:22 PM

No one is talking about Itto Kasso.

Aizen stripped Yamamoto from his Zanpakto. Aizen trapped Yamamoto into tanking an explosion bigger than multiple towns.

Highly wounded unreleased Yamamoto - and Aizen could not finish him off.

Exhausted Shikai Yamamoto with his Bankai stolen - and Juha gets the job done.

BlackSoul

04-01-2013, 10:57 PM

After Yama's sacrificial kido, I think Aizen thought he was dead. Otherwise he would have just stabbed his unconscious body and easily killed him...

He killed for two reasons: 1)Because it was necessary so that he could forward his plan and 2)Because he didn't care about the characters (Rukongai fodder). He didn't kill the Gotei 13 though, because he wanted them to be his army after he became SK.

were was it ever said he had any use for the gotei 13 after aizen became the new king?
he didn't care for them at all or he wouldn't have done such things as merry hinamori stabbing just for the hell of it.

no, no aizen didn't care about killing ppl. I think he in general didn't care about anyone he considered below himself which is, except for perhaps ichigo, pretty much everyone.

S41kop4thy

04-01-2013, 11:19 PM

were was it ever said he had any use for the gotei 13 after aizen became the new king?
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-4/bleach/chapter-393.html

He wanted them to witness his victory, that's why he kept them alive. But what would he do afterwards? I don't think he would kill them... Most likely he would use his power to enslave them.

he didn't care for them at all or he wouldn't have done such things as merry hinamori stabbing just for the hell of it.

no, no aizen didn't care about killing ppl. I think he in general didn't care about anyone he considered below himself which is, except for perhaps ichigo, pretty much everyone.
True, but that doesn't mean that he wanted to kill everyone... Even though he didn't give a crap about them, he would like to have them as subordinates. Perhaps he would enjoy seeing them kneel in front of him and call him king...

BlackSoul

04-01-2013, 11:31 PM

http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-4/bleach/chapter-393.html

He wanted them to witness his victory, that's why he kept them alive. But what would he do afterwards? I don't think he would kill them... Most likely he would use his power to enslave them.

True, but that doesn't mean that he wanted to kill everyone... Even though he didn't give a crap about them, he would like to have them as subordinates. Perhaps he would enjoy seeing them kneel in front of him and call him king...

ah, but would he care about the admiration or at least obedience from ppl he doesn't ever acknowledge?
he had no problems cutting halibel down and she was probably somewhat bowing down to him, in a sense.

oh well, that's kinda off topic anyway.
IMO bach is much more fun villain.

B. Haddrell

04-01-2013, 11:40 PM

Aizen has a god complex. He could have killed a lot of powerful Shinigami during the Winter War but this was not in his interest: His ultimate goal is to rule everybody and enforce his view of how things should be on everybody else.

Only people who are truly in his way and he is sure that he will never be able to rule them are being killed – like the members of Central 46.

jofosho999

04-01-2013, 11:45 PM

^Pretty much this. Aizen's goal was to rule people, that's why he never killed anyone (anyone important that is). Yhwach wants to destroy Soul Society, not rule it. He wants the shinigami extinct (especially those who murdered his whole race). in this case, so far Yhwach is ahead in terms of getting his shiet done. But then again, it took a hax Ichigo and urahara to bring aizen down, so too bad for aizen in the end.

harahara

04-01-2013, 11:47 PM

Only people who are truly in his way and he is sure that he will never be able to rule them are being killed – like the members of Central 46.

The people who are on his way are the G13 & Urahara's group. He didn't kill any of them.

He only killed C46 because they're part of the "evil" side of Soul Society.

BlackSoul

04-01-2013, 11:54 PM

I wonder, would aizen get a kick out of ichigo submitting to him?
you know, he apparantly arranged for ichigo's growth and what not. but in the end ichigo evolved further than even aizen. so would this mean ichigo bowing down to aizen would greatly please aizen?

who else managed to force aizen into a villanous break down?

jofosho999

04-02-2013, 12:10 AM

^Urahara? Haha.. Aizen was laughing manically at one point and Urahara just gives him a cold dumb look lol.

LadyKai

04-04-2013, 05:26 AM

It just has to be Aizen, hands down, he's an absolute genius!

MaskedOne

04-05-2013, 06:04 AM

Aizen all the way. I mean he's not even the main villain anymore yet he still shows up and pretty much everything in bleach was affected by him.

Edit: just to clarify, i could have swore that the brother Yama fought was the one who could copy memories and Kenpachi fought the one who could copy strength?

Griffith

04-05-2013, 08:37 AM

In my opinion i think its too early to pit Aizen and Yhwach against each other because we dont know all that much of Yhwach but if i had to choose from what we've seen so far.. i'd go with Aizen. He's suave and just has a 'swagger' to him that Yhwach can't match. There's actual depth to Aizen's character while Yhwach just wants to destroy everything and he's been just so one dimensional so far.

Yhwach's introduction was so "meh" to me, him looking like Zangetsu was a bummer. But then again, like i said it's too early to judge Yhwach's character. Now Aizen.. wow his introduction and betrayal was brilliant. The way Kubo made Aizen look like the nicest captain in the Gotei 13 and then the way he made him look absolutely evil to the point of making him look almost like a different character by simply just flipping his hair back was so awesome.

vendetta

04-05-2013, 08:42 AM

There's actual depth to Aizen's character while Yhwach just wants to destroy everything and he's been just so one dimensional so far.

Actually Yhwach hates conflict. He made it clear that he hates it when he sees two people fighting and bickering but its his method of ending conflict which makes people think he wants to destroy everything, the way he ended it was quick and ruthless but it seemed to stop it lol.

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/484/14
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/484/15
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/484/16

Griffith

04-05-2013, 08:48 AM

Actually Yhwach hates conflict. He made it clear that he hates it when he sees two people fighting and bickering but its his method of ending conflict which makes people think he wants to destroy everything, the way he ended it was quick and ruthless but it seemed to stop it lol.

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/484/14
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/484/15
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/484/16
You do have a point and there was also that time when he didnt want Haschwald (sp?) to not kill the remaining shinigami that lost their will or whatever.. but if he really hates conflict than why is he starting conflict?

vendetta

04-05-2013, 09:09 AM

You do have a point and there was also that time when he didnt want Haschwald (sp?) to not kill the remaining shinigami that lost their will or whatever.. but if he really hates conflict than why is he starting conflict?

I dont think he is actually starting it the conflict just continuing it.... it has been going on for centuries, since the beginning of the Gotei-13.... and the Vadenreich do what they do out of vengeance so in a way it was the Shinigami that started it for doing their duty and keeping the world in balance.

Griffith

04-05-2013, 09:32 AM

I dont think he is actually starting it the conflict just continuing it.... it has been going on for centuries, since the beginning of the Gotei-13.... and the Vadenreich do what they do out of vengeance so in a way it was the Shinigami that started it for doing their duty and keeping the world in balance.
I think the conflict between the Shinigami and the Quincy has been over with.. if it was still truly going on than why didnt Yamamoto order any of the Gotei 13 to eliminate Uryu after the SS arc? Because he's Ichigo's friend? pffttt.. Yhwach just looks like a one dimensional revenge character at the moment.. maybe he's tried before to calmly stop the conflict with the Shinigami and Yamamoto? But see we still dont know. For all we know it could've been Yhwach that gave the Shinigami reason to eliminate the Quincy. That's why i said it was too early to have this discussion cause i'm sure we'll dive into his character more as the arc goes on obviously but for now it's too early to compare Yhwach's character with Aizen's.. :p

Dizfactor

04-05-2013, 09:41 AM

Bach as a villain is boring as hell. Bleach is so interesting right now because of the other things that are going on because of his invasion, but he as a character himself is as boring and vanilla as villains get. He even kind of looks like a generic bad guy stereotype. That being said, his character should be fleshed out much more in future chapters. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg with him and I feel by the end he will be anything but vanilla. I think maybe Kubo did this on purpose.

Giusel

04-05-2013, 09:49 AM

I think the conflict between the Shinigami and the Quincy has been over with.. if it was still truly going on than why didnt Yamamoto order any of the Gotei 13 to eliminate Uryu after the SS arc? Because he's Ichigo's friend? pffttt.. Yhwach just looks like a one dimensional revenge character at the moment.. maybe he's tried before to calmly stop the conflict with the Shinigami and Yamamoto? But see we still dont know. For all we know it could've been Yhwach that gave the Shinigami reason to eliminate the Quincy. That's why i said it was too early to have this discussion cause i'm sure we'll dive into his character more as the arc goes on obviously but for now it's too early to compare Yhwach's character with Aizen's.. :p

I think Shinigami and Quincies, or more correctly Soul Society and Vandenreich, have a very different view on this war. From the Soul Society p.o.v. the conflict was over in the moment the Quincy massacre happened; the menace to the worlds were over and they didn't see any meaning on prolonging the war.
The Vandenreich, however, is still on the warpath since 1000 years, when Ywhach said the 13 Gotei were at their strongest, and claims that even they Quincies died in that time (in contrast with what we know, that is 200 years ago).
I think Juha is just continuing to fight a war that never stopped from his p.o.v.

vendetta

04-05-2013, 09:51 AM

A war isnt over until one side admits defeat and backs down or is absolutely annihilated, thats just how it is, and there will always be the ones that hold grudges.. its human nature. Plus Yamamoto kept Ywach alive for a reason we dont know, Yama could have ended right there and then in the first war but didnt, which is why Mayuri was saying it was his fault. Revenge may not be the reason anymore to be honest it may go waaay deeper and once everything is fleshed we may have a different perspective. I know it is still early begginings for the Arc but to be honest with Aizen it got irritating with him saying everything went as planned when there was no way of planning such crazy antics. If it was predictable then I wouldnt be so spiffed but it wasnt... But thats just me.

Dizfactor

04-05-2013, 09:59 AM

I think Shinigami and Quincies, or more correctly Soul Society and Vandenreich, have a very different view on this war. From the Soul Society p.o.v. the conflict was over in the moment the Quincy massacre happened; the menace to the worlds were over and they didn't see any meaning on prolonging the war.
The Vandenreich, however, is still on the warpath since 1000 years, when Ywhach said the 13 Gotei were at their strongest, and claims that even they Quincies died in that time (in contrast with what we know, that is 200 years ago).
I think Juha is just continuing to fight a war that never stopped from his p.o.v.

Well, the problem is SS just saw it as something that had to be done. The world depended on it, the balance of souls depended on it. The Quincy had to be disabled. There was no rancor in it, no vindictiveness. When the job was done, it was done. When the threat was disabled there was no reason to carry on a grudge because they were just doing a job, not fighting for an ultimate cause. For the Quincy this was different, they were attacked, they thought they were 100% in the right. They felt they were the subject of genocide so to speak. So of course, SS would not carry on the war and of course the Quincy are never going to forget what happened. They came into the war from two different places, so one was able to forget it easily, and the other was not.

Seraphina

04-05-2013, 10:04 AM

I think it's pretty clear that Bach is more powerful than Aizen (at least Aizen's base forms...I don't believe for a moment he's stronger than Aizen's condom form and up), and he's certain done more damage to the Gotei Thirteen than Aizen did (so far), we just don't know enough about him to consider him a really good villain. We don't really know anything about what kind of man he is, beyond his propensity to wastefully kill off his own subordinates on whims.

Definately evil, but hardly good Empire building skills....at least Aizen would use up his subordinates and discard them only when their use was definately played out. Bach seems to just needlessly slaughter his own people for no good reason....I don't recall him ever killing anyone who either a) he had any real reason to do it and wasn't just satisfying some kind of psychotic urge, or b) they wouldn't have been useful to him when they recovered.

So far, Bach just seems to be a destructive sociopath. He's certainly menacing, but that's about all that could be said about him.

Serocco

04-09-2013, 11:42 PM

MaskedOne

04-12-2013, 10:30 AM

Seraphina: Aizen is also the same guy who let most of his army die off due to his incompetence at combat tactics. He's good for conspiracies, but not at all in the field of combat.

Also, I highly doubt Luders and Ebern were really "needed" by Juhabach to begin with.

Key word here is "let". Of course he let all of them die; he was stronger than all of them when it came down to it. The only Espada In FKT that wow'd me was Starrk, who TOOK on 4 captain class fighters. Aizen clearly outranked him by CUTTING DOWN 4 captain class fighters. Rather quickly I may add.

Serocco

04-22-2013, 04:42 PM

Yhwach also ended up killing the Captain-Commander himself, whereas even Aizen could not.

That's something nobody else can boast.

Andygoesrawr

04-22-2013, 05:31 PM

Yhwach also ended up killing the Captain-Commander himself, whereas even Aizen could not.

That's something nobody else can boast.

To be fair, that was the result of Yamamoto's arrogance and carelessness. The fight would've gone very differently if not for the confusion created by Lloyd.

And the reason Aizen didn't kill Yamamoto was once again the result of his arrogance and carelessness.

Chronus

04-22-2013, 05:34 PM

And the reason Aizen didn't kill Yamamoto was once again the result of his arrogance and carelessness.

The reason why Aizen didn't kill Yamamoto was because Ichigo interrupted him. The sacrifical hadou that Yamamoto cast did shit nothing damage to Aizen. Without Ichigo jumping in to help, Aizen could have just walked back and killed Yamamoto anyway.

Basically, he was saved by the plot.

While in the latter case, Ichigo arrived too late and thus Yamamoto was not saved by the plot.

Quite simple. It really didn't depend on his power level in neither of the two cases. Both Aizen and Yhwach trolled and owned his ass high time. In Bleach verse, that's a valid and often-used way to win, and shows intellectual superiority, in other words, that both Aizen and Yhwach were in the end, stronger than Yamamto, because they were smarter than him.

Knowledge is power, yo. http://imageshack.us/a/img577/3789/blueelmo.gif

ReiWen

04-22-2013, 06:06 PM

In Bleach verse, that's a valid and often-used way to win, and shows intellectual superiority, in other words, that both Aizen and Yhwach were in the end, stronger than Yamamto, because they were smarter than him.

I thought that it was because one have a magical stone created from two separate stones and it have a power to grand wishes as also a VL hollow.
The other had 1000 years to prepare and super special shapeshifter.

Anyway bach looks better since him stealing Yamas BK had something to do with his power. Aizen's wictory had hardly anything to do with his power or intelect

Chronus

04-22-2013, 06:51 PM

I thought that it was because one have a magical stone created from two separate stones and it have a power to grand wishes as also a VL hollow.

Well he kind of fucking achieved that, so it's not like that's a valid complaint.
On the other hand, what was Yamamoto doing in those 1000 years? Cowering in his bathwater?

"Unpreparedness" is kind of a self-derogatory excuse when one leads a military organization.
That's how wars are lost.
Withong being aware that the enemy is preparing,
or that the enemy even exists at all.

Or maybe should I say,
"not giving a shit, not even after one of your subordinates actively warns you about the possibilities"?

http://i9.mangapanda.com/bleach/489/bleach-3233809.jpg

Let's be honest here. Yamamoto has gotten old.
Way too old, and way too tired for his own good.
SS really had no worthwhile enemy for a very long time.

It's not Aizen whose arrogance caused Yamamoto to survive.
It was Yamamoto whose arrogance caused him to die in the end.
Just like how Yhwach said.

(I really have to get used to not calling him Bach)

But to add something to the actual topic too:
Aizen is immortal.
Yhwach could only do something to him with some asspulled Quincy device, which would be exactly the same as some asspulled Shinigami device being able to do something to him. In other words, that wouldn't really be Yhwach defeating Aizen. It'd be Kubo. I think that to be a fair approach to asspulls.

Elementalist

04-22-2013, 07:36 PM

More like Yamamoto had gotten soft, exactly as Bach had stated. The old (I guess I should say younger) Yama-ji was hinted at to be much more ruthless than how he is today, but he changed and changed the entire Gotei. Its not that was a bad thing at all, the Gotei still remained a highly effective military organization despite the change, or are we forgetting that its taken over 500 chapters just for their fall? I agree that the older version might have been more prepared for a possible Quincy war though.

In any case, despite Bach's effectiveness and the amazing way that the Quincy have combated the Shinigami, I actually overall prefer Aizen to Bach. Thats probably not an entirely fair decision considering that Bach has just started as the main antagonist while Aizen has had years as one, but its because of how they operate. Aizen is more intelligent and subtle, his type of character fuels the oftentimes "mystery" style of the manga which I like. Bach is more upfront and blunt. With Aizen you don't know what your about to get, with Bach you pretty much know exactly whats coming. Not that Bach doesn't have any mystery about him, we still don't know much after all, but thats not what his character will probably be about. Not saying that Bach is bad by any means, he is highly effective and intimidating, but its a matter of preference.

By no means do I find Aizen to be perfect in this comparison either. On the negative side, the FKT "just as planned" developments was a bit too much at times not to mention the Deicide fiasco. I also feel like he was developed by Kubo way too late as a villain despite being a very important character. I understand Kubo did that to keep him mysterious, but that could have been still accomplished with a little more character development, motivations from tidbits of his past and whatnot. Still, the Soul Society arc revelation was amazing, the TBTP arc was fantastic and his character there was very intriguing, and this current Isshin flashback and the role he plays is also very well done.

I think I actually prefer Aizen the way he is being shown recently. Rather than things going according to plan he shows a good amount of adaptation and adjustment. I wish Kubo had shown more of these traits earlier on like in FKT/Deicide, but regardless still better than never. Maybe later down the line Bach will make me feel differently, but for now for better or for worse Bleach just feels more like "Bleach" with Aizen and his roles in the story.

Serocco

05-15-2013, 01:47 PM

Now that we've seen the purge, does that change your opinion of Yhwach versus Aizen?

Minerva

05-15-2013, 03:37 PM

Yhwach: killed untold numbers of impure Quincy with a thought.
Aizen: Couldn't even kill Hinamori or Harribel when standing right in front of them.

Yhwach >>>> Aizen :elmo

Sariniste

05-15-2013, 04:04 PM

Now that we've seen the purge, does that change your opinion of Yhwach versus Aizen?

Yhwach: killed untold numbers of impure Quincy with a thought.
Aizen: Couldn't even kill Hinamori or Harribel when standing right in front of them.

Yhwach >>>> Aizen :elmo

Sorry, I still like Aizen far more. Yhwach may be a better killer, but he's simply not as interesting. The reasons I prefer Aizen as a villain have to do with his unique personality, his eloquence, his devious planning, his calmness under fire, and his intelligence. Yhwach simply doesn't hold a candle to Aizen's complexity. He is merely brutal. Ho hum. Another horrible villain just like so many others, and he would never have sparked my interest in Bleach, nor held it as long as Aizen has.

Yhwach is a Complete Monster, while Aizen is a Magnificent Bastard. Completely different types of antagonist. I happen to believe the latter makes for a more compelling plot. I have always preferred the stories where you can feel a flicker of sympathy for the antagonist, where there is a hint of understanding why he might have done what he did. I have absolutely no sympathy for Yhwach.

Additionally, there is no eloquence or philosophy in his words, whereas I can read and reread certain of Aizen's speeches, gaining deeper meanings out of them with each pass. Aizen's words are often poetic and highly original. Many of his turns of phrase are worthy of memorization. Yhwach? His words are ordinary and merely despicable. Aizen is an intriguing mystery, while Yhwach incites no desire in me to learn more of his past.

jofosho999

05-15-2013, 04:09 PM

Bach definitely went up a few notches as a villain. I find his history as this "ancient demon" (similar to movies such as Underworld, Blade, where the vampire lord Dracula has bunch of offspring) is pretty cool. It really makes him out into an ancient villain, which makes me want to see a flashback of what happened 1,000 years ago when he fought Yama, and how the shinigami of that time reacted to such a beast. I still prefer Aizen as a personality obviously, but Bach did go up a few levels in my book.

Saiyan5ninetail

05-15-2013, 04:31 PM

Serocco

05-15-2013, 05:35 PM

Aizen was a failure of a commander. A narcissistic, megalomaniacal, spoiled brat who throws temper tantrums whenever he doesn't get his way.

He followed the Naraku syndrome of yelling out "Psyche" whenever we had him cornered, which turned tedious fast, particularly in Deicide. The volume sales actually went down in Japan once the fight with Aizen began.

Is he a good villain? Certainly easy to root against. He had a laundry list of crimes that would take pages detailing it all, but he lacks the effeciency of Yhwach's brutality.

Tekken13

05-15-2013, 06:09 PM

Saiyan5, Recent chapter stats that Yhwach is originator of all Quincies. The ressurrected corspes by Yamamoto's ability are indeed Yhwach's subordinates.

Anyway

Aizen has memorable quotes, but Yhwach strikes fear. The folklore about the sealed king makes him out to be quite the boogeyman or Freddy Krueger, and what Quincy parents and elders tell children to prevent impurity. The '' Holy selection'' ability of his is scary. During those 9 years, I'd be hidden under my covers or something. I think the Spirit King has a similar ability based on how the ouken is created. I'm interested in the origins of supposed gods/creators in Bleach. Were they there since the ''birth'' of man? Does Yhwach have relations to the Spirit King? In some sense, it's like Kubo is referencing different stories of the bible and adding his own twist.

jofosho999

05-15-2013, 06:43 PM

Saiyan5ninetail

05-15-2013, 06:46 PM

Yea, Bach was the originator of the Quincy...where does it state he isn't the first Quincy? Isshin said so himself. The sealed king, the originator of the quincy... that sounds pretty badass. He's like the forbidden creature you can't release, the last vampire, etc. He started his own race of quincies, while the Soul King started his own race of shinigamis. I wonder who created the hollows?

That is correct, but how far back does Isshin's knowledge on the existence of the Quincy go? Does he know about the original extermination 1000 years ago that Yhwach survived? The most current generations know about the Quincy is associated with the Massacre of 200 years ago and prior to that, but nothing before 1000 years ago.

All the modern day Quincy are related to him by bloodline, which defines the Quincy race. That alone would be enough to earn him a place in Quincy folklore.

jofosho999

05-15-2013, 07:23 PM

I don't know.. I'm sure only Masaki told Isshin about the quincies. And perhaps Ryukken too. But from what we read in the manga, it seems as if Kubo wants to state that Bach was the sole creator of the quincy race. It really gives the reader the sense that Bach is a powerhouse divine god or something to that extent. That would kind of be diminished if he wasn't the first quincy.

I'm actually just really interested to see Bach and Yama's fight. Im curious how Yama responded to this king of quincies when he first met him (probably a big impression considering the moment yama saw Bach, he released his bankai)

ReiWen

05-15-2013, 08:07 PM

Bach a;; the way even more after this chapter

IDK where outside of EBRH (When Jubo lerned from his mistakes) Aizen showed andy planning/inteligence.... He was just "just as planed" and "im so cool" speaches. Nothing interestiong since you always know the end the only unpredictable thing was him "crying" before he was defeated, but again it was just another :I am awesome, its impossible for anyone to be as awesome" speach from him.....

Bach plans, but can change his mind at eny moent.... Kubo tried to make Aizen like this in EBTR, but thats it....Jus a boy wo things that his cool and he is bbuthurt for some reason and lonely becuse of his pwn god complex

Another key to a great villain is presence and significance to the world in which they reside and the main character. Yet another thing that Yhwach has over Aizen. Aizen was just a Shinigami who was displeased with the Spirit King and how the world was, and simply saw Ichigo as the perfect test subject for his research; Yhwach is the Progenitor of the Modern Quincy who seeks the complete destruction of the Shinigami, and the man responsible for Masaki dying at Grand Fisher's hands that night.
I agree with 99% of your post except of the part that BAch may not be the first Quincy of all. Since the newest chap pretty much said that he is. Of course it can be assumed that there were some and maybe BAch have some group of mad spiritualy aware scientist or something but he killed them or that they simply didnt want to create an entire organization. However I dont think that you should take your hope up.

However the quoted part. Yes this is the thing. Aizen is just some random guy who happened to like the MC. Yes we can say that if not for Aizen Ichigo would be still weak, but we can say the same about Urahara who was doing the same thing as Aizne just Urahara simply left it mostly to Aizen. Besides Bach could easly do the same if he wanted. Aizen just was the tool and Bach wants "his creation".
The most important part however is that Ichigo doesnt give a shit about what happened to his parents because of Aizen. At the end of the day Aizen just made them into a haoppy family, or rather made it possible for them to become one. Its Bach who destroyed it and he is the one wo pissed Ichigo off

Darthsorrow

05-15-2013, 08:16 PM

The new revelation doesnt change my opinion. Aizen is still better. And its not because he didnt kill anyone, but he still did do some damage. For example, its because of Aizen, Yamamoto sacrificed his hand which could have been important in the battle against Juha. It was because of him, Ichigo even exists. Dont go after how efficient the villain is, you should go after what villain has accomplished. Currently we dont know much about Juha or what he accomplished until we know more about him. Currently we only know history about him.

But... Its really matter of the opinion.

DraMas26

05-15-2013, 09:08 PM

This is not about eloquence or how pretty you can look when making villainous speeches. For me, a great villain and Big Bad is defined by EFFICIENCY. With that said, efficiency is something Yhwach has in spades over Aizen. While Aizen's Arrancar and Espada could not killl a single Shinigami Captain, the Vandenreich as a whole decimated Soul Society, and Juha Bach personally disposed of Yamamoto during the invasion.

Another key to a great villain is presence and significance to the world in which they reside and the main character. Yet another thing that Yhwach has over Aizen. Aizen was just a Shinigami who was displeased with the Spirit King and how the world was, and simply saw Ichigo as the perfect test subject for his research; Yhwach is the Progenitor of the Modern Quincy who seeks the complete destruction of the Shinigami, and the man responsible for Masaki dying at Grand Fisher's hands that night.

To top it all off, we are still unclear of what happened 1000 years ago that set him down this path. The most we know of it is based on Yhwach's words to Yamamoto and what we glimpsed through Kaka Juumanokushi Daisojin: over 1000 years ago, there was another group of Quincy who were exterminated by the Shinigami. While Yhwach is the progenitor of the modern Quincy, he may not have been the first Quincy overall - simply the last and most powerful of the Original Quincy.

There is still much to learn about Yhwach, and his past interests me far more than Aizen's ever could. His past is where the mystery of the current arc lies. It is even in the title: "The Thousand Year Blood War". What happened over 1000 years ago is the mystery driving this arc and Yhwach forward in the story, which I believe is much more engaging than any "intrigue" or "subtlety" Aizen's stint as the Big Bad may have generated in the eyes of some fans.

That is why my vote went to Yhwach.

I'll just respond to this.

The SR could not kill a single Shinigami captain either. Bach himself said that they were naive. As Nodt couldn't/didn't even kill Byakuya. These SR had an advantage because none of the captains could use Bankai so I don't see how any of them are more efficient than the Espada. The only reason the SR decimated SS is because the SR attacked SS. This is the main difference between Aizen and Bach. Aizen did not want to destroy SS unlike Bach. FKT didn't have 2000+ fodder shinigami. If it did then they probably would have been wiped out by the Espada and/or their Fraccion.

Aizen is the one who manipulated SS and loads of people. He was the one who completed the Hogyouku and made his way to the transcendent. That is presence. Bach does not have this kind of presence so far. He can only manipulate people through fear. Bach was responsible for Masaki dying but Aizen was responsible ofr Urahara and the Vizard's exile, Isshin's exile and loss of Shinigami powers, Hinamori's life being ruined etc. What gives Aizen greater presence is that he can instill fear and despair without killing. So many villains go around killing others s othat's pretty generic. What makes a great villain is one who can do so without resorting to that cliche. That's Aizen. He can make people live lives of self torture and despair and that's a lot worse than death. Above all this Aizen messed up Bach's sense of time when he was locked in Muken. That's presence.

We are unclear of what happened in Aizen's past as well. He also has a relationship with the SK. Bach's past seems to be interesting as well but there's no evidence to say its better than Aizen's. Don't forget that Kubo himself said Aizen's story is not complete so even he has a role to play in this final arc.

So yeah my vote goes to Aizen.

jofosho999

05-15-2013, 09:10 PM

Bach is a dead man now, that's for sure. Ichigo actually has a valid reason to fight him. Remember aizen's convo about why Ichigo should hate him... in this case, Ichigo definitely has a reason to hate Bach. Ichigo, like someone was saying, should be thanking Aizen for hooking his dad and mom up and giving him some hollow powers to boot. I see Aizen becoming an anti-villain in this arc now. He'll make the greatest anti-villain :D

Serocco

05-15-2013, 10:35 PM

Aizen's "precense" falls flat on its face when he ends up over relying on the Hogyoku to fight its battles for him.

What did Aizen accomplish? Nothing that didn't involve the Hogyoku. Sure, dozens of people hate him, but they don't fear him, nor have they died either. Even Tosen seemed to stop being intimidated by him.

Yhwach killed the Captain-Commander and forced a regime change. That alone holds more weight.

S41kop4thy

05-15-2013, 10:45 PM

Yhwach: killed untold numbers of impure Quincy with a thought.
Aizen: Couldn't even kill Hinamori or Harribel when standing right in front of them.

Yhwach >>>> Aizen :elmo

Indeed, ultimately Bach caused (slightly, see DraMas26's post) more damage than Aizen and so far he seems scarier than him. However, as far as potential is concerned, I believe that Aizen or Urahara (or perhaps Mayuri) alone could cause more damage than 5 Vandereich armies if they wished... And this is important, Aizen never wished to cause that much damage... As far as Bach killing with a thought is concerned, we don't know that. Maybe he used a complex ritual (similar to the one required for the creation of the Royal Key) to accomplish that...

...The reasons I prefer Aizen as a villain have to do with his unique personality, his eloquence, his devious planning, his calmness under fire, and his intelligence. Yhwach simply doesn't hold a candle to Aizen's complexity. He is merely brutal....

Yhwach is a Complete Monster, while Aizen is a Magnificent Bastard. Completely different types of antagonist. I happen to believe the latter makes for a more compelling plot. I have always preferred the stories where you can feel a flicker of sympathy for the antagonist, where there is a hint of understanding why he might have done what he did. I have absolutely no sympathy for Yhwach.

Additionally, there is no eloquence or philosophy in his words...

Although I originally came here to support you, I disagree on some points. I hope you don't take it personal... :p Yes, Aizen is more than just a warrior. He's also a scientist (and maybe a philosopher), a complex individual, an artist who values beauty and prefers brain over brawn, but that merely makes him a better character, not a better villain. Sometimes a Complete Monster (http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Complete_Monster) is a better villain than a Magnificent Bastard (http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Magnificent_Bastards)... Plus, Bach isn't a Kenpachi. He's a brute, but he also uses strategy and tactics.

Also, as I said on an earlier post, Bleach fans grew tired of Aizen in the previous Arcs because of his lack of efficiency and complete fall. Sure, if Kubo wanted, he could have "made" Aizen create his own Bankai stealing badges, or kill Ichigo and the Captains before leaving for the real Karakura Town. Then he would have completely and utterly destroyed SS and conquered everything. Therefore, he would be valued more than Bach (although then there would be no Bach or Bleach).

In the end, I think it justified for more and more fans to start to consider Bach a greater villain, since Kubo himself tries his best to make him everything Aizen wasn't... As far as sympathy is concerned, sometimes it's fun to hate the villain... Yes, Aizen is more interesting to be friends with (:p), but Bach gets things done (again, only because Kubo allows him so, as opposed to what he did with Aizen), and that's what the fans need now...

...For me, a great villain and Big Bad is defined by EFFICIENCY. With that said, efficiency is something Yhwach has in spades over Aizen. While Aizen's Arrancar and Espada could not killl a single Shinigami Captain, the Vandenreich as a whole decimated Soul Society, and Juha Bach personally disposed of Yamamoto during the invasion.

Another key to a great villain is presence and significance to the world in which they reside and the main character. Yet another thing that Yhwach has over Aizen. Aizen was just a Shinigami who was displeased with the Spirit King and how the world was, and simply saw Ichigo as the perfect test subject for his research; Yhwach is the Progenitor of the Modern Quincy who seeks the complete destruction of the Shinigami, and the man responsible for Masaki dying at Grand Fisher's hands that night.

To top it all off, we are still unclear of what happened 1000 years ago that set him down this path. The most we know of it is based on Yhwach's words to Yamamoto and what we glimpsed through Kaka Juumanokushi Daisojin: over 1000 years ago, there was another group of Quincy who were exterminated by the Shinigami. While Yhwach is the progenitor of the modern Quincy, he may not have been the first Quincy overall - simply the last and most powerful of the Original Quincy.

There is still much to learn about Yhwach, and his past interests me far more than Aizen's ever could. His past is where the mystery of the current arc lies. It is even in the title: "The Thousand Year Blood War". What happened over 1000 years ago is the mystery driving this arc and Yhwach forward in the story, which I believe is much more engaging than any "intrigue" or "subtlety" Aizen's stint as the Big Bad may have generated in the eyes of some fans.

That is why my vote went to Yhwach.

With the exception of Bach, the Vandereich aren't really that strong without their ability to steal Bankai. And Kubo could have easily given that ability to Aizen as well... Although, I do agree that ultimately Bach gets results...

As far as influence is concerned, I'm gonna have to disagree. Aizen's plans didn't have lasting effects (SS fixed most of the damage he caused), but he has been manipulating the entire Bleach storyline since chapter 1. On the other hand, Bach may have appeared just recently, but he has been affecting Ichigo since long before his birth. And in irreversible ways (death of Masaki). So, even though their significance and influence isn't that far apart, Aizen still has the advantage for me...

Also, yes, we know nothing about Bach, but also nothing about Aizen...

And yes, Bach's past would probably be more interesting. Aizen is a loner, so his past probably involves him reading books and discovering something evil about the Soul King, while Bach's past involves battles and carnage...

Aizen was a failure of a commander. A narcissistic, megalomaniacal, spoiled brat who throws temper tantrums whenever he doesn't get his way.

He followed the Naraku syndrome of yelling out "Psyche" whenever we had him cornered, which turned tedious fast, particularly in Deicide. The volume sales actually went down in Japan once the fight with Aizen began.

Is he a good villain? Certainly easy to root against. He had a laundry list of crimes that would take pages detailing it all, but he lacks the effeciency of Yhwach's brutality.

Aizen is the type of villain (personality wise) that you either hate or love. But in the end it all comes down to efficiency. And yes, I agree, Bach is more efficient (slightly, as DraMas26 showed).

In the end, I think the Aizen vs. Bach debate is basically the manipulator-genius-elegant-beautiful-etc. vs. scary-brutal-monstrous-etc. If you leave efficiency and plot influence out of the picture, it's just a matter of personal opinion...

I'll just respond to this.

The SR could not kill a single Shinigami captain either. Bach himself said that they were naive. As Nodt couldn't/didn't even kill Byakuya. These SR had an advantage because none of the captains could use Bankai so I don't see how any of them are more efficient than the Espada. The only reason the SR decimated SS is because the SR attacked SS. This is the main difference between Aizen and Bach. Aizen did not want to destroy SS unlike Bach. FKT didn't have 2000+ fodder shinigami. If it did then they probably would have been wiped out by the Espada and/or their Fraccion.

Aizen is the one who manipulated SS and loads of people. He was the one who completed the Hogyouku and made his way to the transcendent. That is presence. Bach does not have this kind of presence so far. He can only manipulate people through fear. Bach was responsible for Masaki dying but Aizen was responsible ofr Urahara and the Vizard's exile, Isshin's exile and loss of Shinigami powers, Hinamori's life being ruined etc. What gives Aizen greater presence is that he can instill fear and despair without killing. So many villains go around killing others s othat's pretty generic. What makes a great villain is one who can do so without resorting to that cliche. That's Aizen. He can make people live lives of self torture and despair and that's a lot worse than death. Above all this Aizen messed up Bach's sense of time when he was locked in Muken. That's presence.

We are unclear of what happened in Aizen's past as well. He also has a relationship with the SK. Bach's past seems to be interesting as well but there's no evidence to say its better than Aizen's. Don't forget that Kubo himself said Aizen's story is not complete so even he has a role to play in this final arc.

So yeah my vote goes to Aizen.

This is one of the major advantages someone like Aizen has over Bach. And as I said above, it's not just Aizen, but also Urahara (and maybe Mayuri). Since Bleach is a shonen manga, there is no realistic use of scientific knowledge and ingenuity besides in combat. But in real life, think how easy it would be for an "evil genius" to wipe out a military commander with an invention of his. Western comics show that a lot. Lex Luthor vs. Superman, Batman vs. Justice Leage Villains, Tony Stark vs. Hulk, etc. For example, the movie "Law Abiding Citizen" shows that clearly... Seriously, who knows what kind of creepy inventions Mayuri could potentially hide in his lab that could wipe out his enemies (like an airborne virus that specifically attacks and breaks down Quincy DNA...). But even if you don't consider the scientific factor, just by their knowledge, information and contacts, Aizen and Urahara could turn the world upside down if Bleach was a different genre... (If only... :p)
----------------

Aizen's "precense" falls flat on its face when he ends up over relying on the Hogyoku to fight its battles for him.

What did Aizen accomplish? Nothing that didn't involve the Hogyoku. Sure, dozens of people hate him, but they don't fear him, nor have they died either. Even Tosen seemed to stop being intimidated by him.

Yhwach killed the Captain-Commander and forced a regime change. That alone holds more weight.
Didn't the Quincies rely on the Bankai stealing badges too? Fear has nothing to do with efficiency and efficiency is another issue. As far as Yamamoto is concerned, Aizen could have easily killed him before leaving for the real Karakura Town...

Mcnubins

05-15-2013, 11:33 PM

For me it depends on what question you ask. Bach is far far far far more superior in the "villain" role. He reminds me of Darkseid, Magneto, Juggernaut, Bane or the T-1000. He is straightforward and somewhat boring in his approach but still, as a villain his scorched earth policy and overwhelming superior firepower would be truly terrifying. You can see him coming, but there is nothing you can see to stop him and he has no redeeming quality. It would be like a coalition of the US, Chinese, EU and Russian forces invading Madagascar. Feel sorry for Alex, Marty and Melman.

However, as a "bad guy" character, Aizen is superior. I don't know how to better delineate the difference but Aizen is almost a character you want to like. Aizen is interesting,powerful and sophisticated. I see him like Alonzo Harris (Denzel Washington) in Training Day, Tyler Durden or in a strange way Joker. You want to see what he wants and how he is going to get it and you may even root for him a little bit.

jofosho999

05-15-2013, 11:41 PM

It's because its the last arc, Kubo can start killing off characters and causing mass destruction. He didn't have aizen do any damage simply cause those characters that were in danger needed to show off their bankais in the next arc. Aizen was never going to win the "whose the more efficient villain" award cause the plot won't allow it. He could've easily killed ichigo before he went into the dangai. Or yama after yama had used his spell. Or komamura, he could've just stabbed the fox's head. He even said he didnt wanna kill Hits, shinji, shunsui. However...he did have killing intention when he stabbed hinamori and harribel. he failed.. he did kill bunch of his own guys tho lolz Overall..my point is that kubo was saving all the deaths for the last arc so of course bach will get hte kills aizen couldn't

LuvBleachMen

05-16-2013, 12:24 AM

@Sariniste, well said!

I view Kubo's earlier writing with reluctance to kill on the fact that Aizen doesn't have enough deaths on his hands. He's certainly ruthless enough IMO. We've seen his clear intent to kill and he has no problem whatsoever with "living" experiments dying. I view him as a deeper character also.

However, I do have to say that the gloves are off with Bach. Kubo's reluctance is gone(that's a good thing), so yes Bach has been more effective in the sense that people are now actually dead. However, we still need to see what will happen once Aizen escapes, which I believe he will. Or he'll be let out as a last hope, after Bach runs over SS again and SS once again runs around like chickens with their heads cut off.

So far though, Bach is winning in terms of the gore factor, if that's what people were looking for. Aizen still wins in terms of mysteriousness and depth. We still don't have his whole story. Bach's story has been given a pretty large bump so we're getting to know more of his motives.

ishida

05-16-2013, 12:42 AM

I will wait until Aizen return to the story line. I know the whole arrancar arc and Aizen's defeat will be another just as planned scenario because Aizen was waiting for Yhwach to be revived.

Saiyan5ninetail

05-16-2013, 12:58 AM

I'll just respond to this.

The SR could not kill a single Shinigami captain either. Bach himself said that they were naive. As Nodt couldn't/didn't even kill Byakuya. These SR had an advantage because none of the captains could use Bankai so I don't see how any of them are more efficient than the Espada. The only reason the SR decimated SS is because the SR attacked SS. This is the main difference between Aizen and Bach. Aizen did not want to destroy SS unlike Bach. FKT didn't have 2000+ fodder shinigami. If it did then they probably would have been wiped out by the Espada and/or their Fraccion.

Aizen is the one who manipulated SS and loads of people. He was the one who completed the Hogyouku and made his way to the transcendent. That is presence. Bach does not have this kind of presence so far. He can only manipulate people through fear. Bach was responsible for Masaki dying but Aizen was responsible ofr Urahara and the Vizard's exile, Isshin's exile and loss of Shinigami powers, Hinamori's life being ruined etc. What gives Aizen greater presence is that he can instill fear and despair without killing. So many villains go around killing others s othat's pretty generic. What makes a great villain is one who can do so without resorting to that cliche. That's Aizen. He can make people live lives of self torture and despair and that's a lot worse than death. Above all this Aizen messed up Bach's sense of time when he was locked in Muken. That's presence.

I am starting to see this is all a matter of quantity vs quality. I believe that Juha Bach possesses quality over Aizen's quantity. Yes, Aizen was revealed to have done many things during the Arrancar saga, but how much of it lasted after his defeat? After his defeat, the Visoreds are no longer in exile from Soul Society and neither is Urahara; Isshin has his Shinigami powers back even if he is still hiding his presence, and Hinamori has pieced her life back together with Shinji as her new Captain, among the ones that you mentioned. The only things that stuck were him sending Metastacia to kill Kaien, as well as Tousen and Gin's deaths.

Why is that you may ask? Because death is PERMANENT. That is why I lend more weight to what Juha Bach has done than what Aizen has done. Masaki and Katagiri are never going to come back to life after he stole their powers, which led to their deaths, and the deaths of thousands of Shinigami and of Yamamoto is going to affect the Gotei 13 for a long time to come, if not for the remainder of the series. And have you forgotten about Kira? I'm fairly certain that he died of that injury he sustained.

Aizen's presence faded after the Arrancar saga was done with. He might have had some influence in the current arc by messing with Juha's perception of time, but it is Juha Bach who possesses the greatest presence in the manga at the moment. Not only has one assault of his Vandenreich brought the Gotei 13 to ruin, but he is responsible for the deaths of both Masaki and Katagiri, Ichigo and Uryu's mothers. This had a long term effect on both characters and their families.

You also should not underestimate the fact the Vandenreich possess the Bankai Stealing Medallions, because those medallions give a true sense of what was lacking in the Arrancar saga: fear and suspense. For the first time in the manga, the Shinigami are truly in a position of vulnerability that cannot be remedied easily with the arrival of new allies or no amount of resolve. It is also a mistake to assume that the Medallions are the only reason why the Stern Ritter are powerful. If they were not powerful, Byakuya and Zaraki would not have been beaten so thoroughly by their opponents. The only two Captains who defeated any Stern Ritter during the invasion were Zaraki and Yamamoto, one being a Special War Potential and the other the Captain-Commander, both two of the most powerful Shinigami in the Gotei 13.

Even then, Royd rendered Zaraki unconscious with his bare hands, and Juha Bach killed Yamamoto. Contrast this to the Arrancar arc, where the Fraccion and Espada began to drop like flies when the fighting started, with only a few moments of suspense and fear for the lives of the Shinigami. The Vandenreich achieved more within twenty chapters what Aizen and his Arrancar could not with over 200 chapters worth of manga time afforded to them.

Presence is being able to completely shift the course of the story and affect the characters within the story in a significant manner with your arrival. Aizen did do that with the reveal of his betrayal, but his presence droned on like a rock being constantly put to the grinding stone until it becomes an annoyance and begins to fade. Everything after that did not change anything in the story, since he was still the focus all the time.

Juha Bach and the Vandenreich, on the other hand, changed the course of the series with the force of a supernova. Within fourteen chapters, they gave us our first major character death in the series with Sasakibe Chojiro, were revealed to have conquered Hueco Mundo without Soul Society noticing, and established themselves as a significant threat to the Shinigami. In the next 20 chapters, the Vandenreich smashed in the gates of Soul Society, slaughtered thousands of Shinigami, likely adding Kira to the list of dead major characters, stole the Bankai of four Captains of the Gotei 13, and Juha Bach killed Yamamoto.

Now it has been revealed that Juha Bach is responsible for the deaths of Masaki and Katagiri when he stole their powers to make them his own, and there is the possibility the Vandenreich has brain-washed Uryu into joining their cause. Topping all this off is the fact he is the progenitor of all Quincy, making him the most significant Big Bad Ichigo has faced in the series to date.

That is why I gave my vote to Juha Bach.

Minerva

05-16-2013, 01:17 AM

I will wait until Aizen return to the story line. I know the whole arrancar arc and Aizen's defeat will be another just as planned scenario because Aizen was waiting for Yhwach to be revived.
Hardly. Aizen is a Big Bad. Yhwach is a Bigger Bad. Remember, he wanted Aizen to come work for him as SWP. That's everything we need to know about the pecking order.

Unless Aizen miraculously got a huge power-up while locked away, he needs to accept that someone is standing above him.

Elementalist

05-16-2013, 02:03 AM

Maybe later down the line Bach will make me feel differently

Never did I imagine that it would be this... soon... :p I at least wish that I withheld my vote lol One of those times where I wish I could go back in time and slap myself. lmao

In any case, I feel like that choice between Aizen & Yhwach is choice between style & substance. Aizen has more style, and is naturally more charismatic. That isn't surprising, because the same can easily be said for the highly individualistic Esapda in comparison to the Stern Ritters.

However, when it comes to actual substance Bach and the Vandenreich really shine and have it in spades. They have accomplished far more of an impact in this manga in a much shorter time period than Aizen and his Espada ever did with far more time. (chapter wise) Bach also has far more of a reach and impact than Aizen does, and even more of a personal tie to Ichigo which is crucial.

Aizen lacked these things, he doesn't have the wide reaching impact nor the personal tie to Ichigo. One might ask what does "wide reaching impact" mean considering where talking about Aizen: Aizen was a big villain, but mainly he was a villain to the Shinigami and his goals were "mainly" concerned with them. (Wants to overthrow Shinigami King, Shinigami system, etc...) The hollows were simply a means to an ends for him to accomplish this, and he probably could care less about the Quincy.

Bach on the other hand, his reach involves the entire Bleachverse. He and his Quincy either want to enslave or exterminate all hollows, he wants to apparently destroy all Shinigami, not just replace the system completely eradicate them. He'll target those of his own people he deems as "impure," so no one is really safe at all. With Aizen, as long as you aren't crucial to his schemes your still pretty fine.

Bach is also managing to unite everyone in the Bleachverse because of what I noted above. Shinigami, Arrancar, Fullbringers, they all are against the Quincy. Understandably so, as in the worse case scenario what the Quincy do can unbalance the worlds and destroy them.

Bach is definitely a bigger bad, and I'm glad that Kubo managed to step it up a bit with the recent reveals. He has more effect, is more intimidating and effective as a true villain, and most importantly has actual personal ties to the main character. Not saying that Aizen is inferior, but Bach is a better pure villain...

jofosho999

05-16-2013, 03:38 AM

ishida

05-16-2013, 03:40 AM

Ryin

05-16-2013, 04:07 AM

Hardly. Aizen is a Big Bad. Yhwach is a Bigger Bad. Remember, he wanted Aizen to come work for him as SWP. That's everything we need to know about the pecking order.

Unless Aizen miraculously got a huge power-up while locked away, he needs to accept that someone is standing above him.

He wanted to have Aizen as a SWP and Aizen told him to sit and spin and even screwed with him while tied up in a chair. I'd say that does indeed establish the pecking order.

I still favor Aizen myself so far. The reason why I think I prefer him is because he's never really considered himself as a villain. In Aizen's mind, the world is his and everyone else is just paying rent. If they go along with him, if they don't if they are tools or if they are impediments to his goals, they are what they are.

He's essentially succeeded in all his plans. Even when Ichigo stopped him, all he really did was set him back. He's not dead or separated from the Hogyouku. Sitting in his chair, getting his sentence it almost felt like that was another part of his plan. I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

For all the talk of Bach's abilities to commit mass murder, he put down a blitzkreig against SS on their home turf. There should be no better opportunity to crush SS than what he had already done and when he left, what has he accomplished? He's killed as many captains as the SS killed themselves thanks to Unohana Vs. Kenpachi.

And in fact, SS lost more captains thanks to Aizen than they did thanks to the Vandenreich. Gin and Tousen are dead. Were they bad guys? yeah. But they are dead captains. Take Aizen as beign a captain who was removed from the Gotei 13 and the Gotei 13 suffered greater losses under Aizen than they did against the VR because, as has been noted, the captains are the strength of the Gotei 13.

It's 1 for the VR and 3 for Aizen.

I guess that because the VR gets points for killing Yamamoto, but then again Bach himself had all but said that Yamamoto was killed because he wouldn't let Orihime restore his arm. I think he lost that arm fighting Aizen? I guess that could inderectly be Aizen's kill too. The same way Masaki wouldn't have died if White hadn't bit her and tainted her blood. That was Aizen too because Bach wouldn't have been able to take her powers if she was pure blood.

It's not that I don't like Bach. I think he's pretty cool but he still needs to be doing more. What is so impressive about Aizen is just how deeply rooted he is and has been into soul society. Under every rock that's turned, it seems like Aizen's name is whispered there.

I still need to see more of Bach myself. I think that it's easy to throw away the villain whose been around for hundreds of chapters for the new guy just because he's done some flashy things but I'd like to wait and see. Maybe in a hundred or so more chapters he'll be as pervasive a villain as Aizen.

jofosho999

05-16-2013, 04:15 AM

I personally think Aizen is just screwing around again and this is indeed just part of his plans. It gets annoying, but that's Aizen, the guy with a backup plan to his backup plan to his back up backed up plan. He clearly sees Bach as inferior, messing with his mind, not afraid that Bach can just finger shot him (that finger shot by Bach when he beheaded Ivan and Luders was definitely haunting to me...and I read my share of seinen mangas). I guess I'm just biased but I like Aizen's trickery and deceit. While he's the joker, Bach is more like bane, whom I also really like as well. I still see this as Aizen's way to get to the royal realm. All he needs is to somehow get his powers back, have Bach pave his way into the soul realm, then have Bach get shut down by Ichigo so Aizen gets a shot at the king. Even at the end of his defeat, aizen seemed more like a confused villain with some redeeming qualities (what he said about the Soul King). Guess this is all just blabber..bach is the better pure villain so far but not the better character lol

harahara

05-16-2013, 04:29 AM

While it is simply a matter of taste, Juha Bach definitely lives up to the literal definition of a villain. Especially when you factor in the history part of the story, Juha Bach made the Quincy. Because of Juha Bach, the Gotei 13 had to endure 2 major wars with 1 coming up + the extermination of the Quincies 200 yrs ago. That's 4 major military events due to Juha Bach's sole existence.

The only thing that Aizen holds more than Juha would be being prepared to fight Yamamoto, he already knew in order to take down Yamamoto, you simply cannot overpower him, you need the intellect side of things. Juha Bach only got his lesson learnt until he saw Yamamoto's power first hand 1000 yrs ago (which wasn't even Yamamoto's true Bankai form) and had to retreat for 1000 yrs. He made sure he didn't make the same mistake twice and created the Bankai stealing Medallion to ensure Yamamoto's defeat.

I like Aizen's character and he's definitely a better character so far in the story than Juha Bach, but when it comes down to specifically "the big bad villain" - Juha Bach instantly takes the cake imo. And let's be honest the Espadas were no where close to take down the Gotei 13. The SternRitters stole numerous Bankai's and had many Captains on their knees, leaving them without or even with no hope whatsoever.

Even the 5 Royal Guards agree that Aizen is bad, but not the bigger bad, the big bad title goes to Juha Bach. Hands down.

Serocco

05-16-2013, 04:41 AM

It's not a matter if being strong. It's a matter of being smart. Aizen tried being smart, but it ended up being too convoluted even for him, so he went to just strength and it cost him.

Also, Aizen was about to kill Yamamoto, but did not, because Yamamot caught him flat-flooted and used Itto Kaso. Contrast that to how Yhwach dealt with him.

The thing is that Aizen has longevity. Yhwach has only been in existence for over a month. Maybe, by the end of the series, depending on how he meets his end, people will be more willing to pick him over Aizen.

harahara

05-16-2013, 04:50 AM

While Aizen is smarter than Juha Bach, Juha Bach is also smart in his own right. The reason why Aizen seems "more smarter" is majorly due to his Kyoka Suigetsu, which basically enables him to do whatever he wishes.

On the other hand, Juha Bach has no such 'hax' natural ability. But, the man created a whole new race in existence. Doesn't that take brains? Without a doubt. Medallions that steal Bankais? Certainly. The ability to rule over a Blood-related Power? Certainly. The ability to Quincify a Hollow/Arrancar? Certainly. The ability of the shadows to instantly transport one self? Of course.

And so on and so on.

Granted that Aizen "messed with Juha Bach's timing" - but that does not require brains, that only requires the ability that Aizen has.

my2kb22

05-16-2013, 09:34 AM

I'm starting to think that aizen met juha before he could complete his power...... maybe aizen cast KS on him during those times...... coz how the hell could aizen mess up juha's time perception......... its ridiculous to think that its only because aizen was blabbing all the time... someone as strong as bach would notice it if he's just blabbing things that could hinder his time outside the shadow world..... something happened to aizen....maybe indeed he has become 1 with his sword..... waiting for the right time to troll SS and VR lols

Though now with the update of the status of bach....... i'm now 50/50 between aizen or yhwach thing...... that quincy selection is one hell of an ability, plus the 900 years, 90 years, 9 years stuff and the "sealed king" makes him sound more imposing hehe

ReiWen

05-16-2013, 11:51 AM

I guess that because the VR gets points for killing Yamamoto, but then again Bach himself had all but said that Yamamoto was killed because he wouldn't let Orihime restore his arm. I think he lost that arm fighting Aizen? I guess that could inderectly be Aizen's kill too. The same way Masaki wouldn't have died if White hadn't bit her and tainted her blood. That was Aizen too because Bach wouldn't have been able to take her powers if she was pure blood.
When did Bach even said such thing. He said that Yama is soft and dont want to involve humans. He didnt say that Yama was weaker because of the lose of his hand. He always fight with one hand anyway so its logical to think that he have such a good control over his power that he can put all the reiatsu that he needs in his sword with just one hand.

Nowhere does the manga say that Bach cant take powers from pure Quincies.

Also Gin and Tosen<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Yama and Sasakibe+2500 shinigamies. The captains can be the main power, but the normal shinigami are the ones who take care of the balance and gotei lost almost half of those guys.... Whos going to take care of the balance now? The balance is te most important of all things for the shinigamies.

I'm starting to think that aizen met juha before he could complete his power...... maybe aizen cast KS on him during those times...... coz how the hell could aizen mess up juha's time perception
Aizens KS was taken away by H-ball and for now it doesnt seems to be back. Besides KS does not have the power to do it. Its simply not what its ability is about.
However Aizen still have some of his powers its fore sure. If he wouldnt there would be no point to use some Bakudos on him since he wouldnt be able to leave Muken anyway....
Besides when Bach figured out that it was Aizen he was like "good for you bro"

I personally think Aizen is just screwing around again and this is indeed just part of his plans. It gets annoying, but that's Aizen, the guy with a backup plan to his backup plan to his back up backed up plan. He clearly sees Bach as inferior, messing with his mind, not afraid that Bach can just finger shot him
When did Aizen ever had a backup plan?:confused:
Besides Bach cant do a think. Hougyoku is still one with Aizen so Aizen=Hougyoku in a way. It will regenerate him because him being in pieces mean that H-ball is in pieces

The only thing that Aizen holds more than Juha would be being prepared to fight Yamamoto, he already knew in order to take down Yamamoto, you simply cannot overpower him, you need the intellect side of things. Juha Bach only got his lesson learnt until he saw Yamamoto's power first hand 1000 yrs ago (which wasn't even Yamamoto's true Bankai form) and had to retreat for 1000 yrs. He made sure he didn't make the same mistake twice and created the Bankai stealing Medallion to ensure Yamamoto's defeat.
The little problem is that Aizen didnnt even want to be near yama's Shikai. Besides Aizen hed some history books so he knew about what Yama caan do at least with shikai.... Bach was just a Quincy

Novembre Pleut

05-16-2013, 12:27 PM

I don't find either particularly compelling in all honesty and both have somewhat empty motivations and loose connections to the main character...

Serocco

05-16-2013, 01:04 PM

Yhwach killed Masaki. That's not exactly a "loose" connection.

Ryin

05-16-2013, 03:59 PM

When did Bach even said such thing. He said that Yama is soft and dont want to involve humans. He didnt say that Yama was weaker because of the lose of his hand. He always fight with one hand anyway so its logical to think that he have such a good control over his power that he can put all the reiatsu that he needs in his sword with just one hand.
We know from Kenpachi that you're a whole hell of a lot stronger when you hold your sword in two hands than when you do it with one. Whether or not Yama would have done it, he couldn't thanks to his hubris.

Nowhere does the manga say that Bach cant take powers from pure Quincies.
and I don't think it states anywhere that he could, either. HOWEVER. Whether he could or could not doesn't matter. He ONLY took tainted blooded Quincies and Masaki is ONLY a tainted blooded Quincy because of Aizen.

Also Gin and Tosen<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Yama and Sasakibe+2500 shinigamies. The captains can be the main power, but the normal shinigami are the ones who take care of the balance and gotei lost almost half of those guys.... Whos going to take care of the balance now? The balance is te most important of all things for the shinigamies.

Tousen and Gin < Yama. I ceded the point and expounded on it. Tousen and Gin NOT < the rest of that. I understand the ramifications of what many dead shinigami implies. But Gin, Tousen OR Aizen could have accomplished that feat if they had desired. The only one who had any interest in that was Tousen but he was too busy playing pretend. Aizen wasn't looking to disrupt the balance of anything. In fact, just the opposite. He was looking to restore what he felt was empty. That is why I am less impressed with the killing of masses of fodder shinigami. Let's say Aizen and his crew had blitzekreiged SS like the VR did, with similar intent. I think the results would have been the same; At least one dead VC and probably a dead Yamamoto at the very least. The only reason Yamamoto wasn't killed by Aizen already was because Ichigo saved him. So this time Ichigo's late to the party and Yamamoto dies. :cookie

When did Aizen ever had a backup plan?:confused:
When doesn't he?

Novembre Pleut

05-16-2013, 04:56 PM

Yhwach killed Masaki. That's not exactly a "loose" connection.

Grand fisher still killed masaki...

Ywach didn't even know she was in battle at the time, collateral damage at best.

his cleansing should not have killed her if not engaged.. the only reason uryuu's mother died was because she was already weak.

This is kinda like blaming a president for a death of an individual because he changed a state law.

loose indeed.

orangerebellion

05-16-2013, 05:03 PM

I'm going to have to disagree. I think you're really understating what Yhwach has done to his own people. It may be true that he didn't know Masaki was fighting a Hollow at the time. Yet, early in the HM arc, when Uryuu first lost his powers, I thought it was stated that the sudden loss of his Quincy powers caused Hollows to be drawn to him and he couldn't fight back. If that is the case, then I imagine that the power loss from all the Quincies who suffered Yhwach's selection met a similar fate where they were attacked by Hollows and couldn't defend themselves.

As for Katagiri. Yes, she was ill or weak (depending on the translation) at that time, but Yhwach stealing her powers is what killed her.

Serocco

05-16-2013, 05:47 PM

Had Masaki not been in a fight, she would've died the same time as Kanae. In fact, she collapsed in the same way as Kanae. She would've died anyway; Grand Fisher just sped the process.

That's not "loose" at all. Stop cherry picking and actually read between the lines.

LuvBleachMen

05-16-2013, 07:06 PM

Taking her blut made her defenseless. So she would have died in the next fight if she had not happened to be in this one. Isshin clearly said she should not have died, but for that. Yes, Bach effectively killed Masaki.

Now as to why GF showed up at that particular time, is another story. There's a theory in another thread about Aizen sending him, and I think it's plausible.

Zanka No Tachi

05-16-2013, 07:08 PM

@serocco, agreed, after Bach took away Masaki's powers, it would have disrupted the balance Urahara formed between Isshin and Masaki, and the hollow may have even taken over. As much as it sux that she died, i guess it was the best thing because she may have even killed Ichigo after turning hollow.

As for Bach vs Aizen, i prefer Aizen still, ive yet to see more of Bach. They both have different goals, Bach outright will kill the shinigamis without giving a fuck, yet Aizen will mentally damage his opponents forever. Aizen didnt want to kill all the shinigami, he wanted to become a God and beyond and rule the shinigami.

Its what Ichigo said to Grimmjow, if u want to become King, what is the point then of killing everyone and have nobody to rule.

Mcnubins

05-16-2013, 08:40 PM

And in fact, SS lost more captains thanks to Aizen than they did thanks to the Vandenreich. Gin and Tousen are dead. Were they bad guys? yeah. But they are dead captains. Take Aizen as beign a captain who was removed from the Gotei 13 and the Gotei 13 suffered greater losses under Aizen than they did against the VR because, as has been noted, the captains are the strength of the Gotei 13.

It's 1 for the VR and 3 for Aizen.

According to Aizen himself, those captains were never the Gotei 13s in the first place. So......there's that. :p

Ryin

05-16-2013, 09:01 PM

According to Aizen himself, those captains were never the Gotei 13s in the first place. So......there's that. :p

But their power is on that of a captain's level, which is what matters. However, with what you say, the VR still hasn't managed to bring the SS down to a level of power significantly lower than it was when Aizen left, outside of the CC which I've already talked about and who has been replaced. I guess that they removed one captain from its position since there's no longer an 8th division captain presently. So, they are even with what the SS did to themselves.

Mcnubins

05-16-2013, 09:10 PM

The CC alone was worth 5 Tosens and 5 Gins. They also reduced a four captains to vice captains by stealing their bankai. Possibly caused another captain to die in order for yet another to grow. The SS is significantly weaker. That is also without the thousands of dead soldiers. There is not even an argument that can be said that it isn't significantly weaker because of the VR and that more damage was done in terms of power lost than was done by Aizen.

All that being said that doesn't make Aizen less of a bad guy than Bach though.

KittyUlquiorra

05-18-2013, 06:19 AM

cocoLily

05-21-2013, 12:59 AM

For me, it's really hard to say but I'm leaning towards Aizen. The only thing that's been 'established' about Yhwach so far is that he wants to eradicate the Soul Society by any means necessary with no regard to the universal balance. It can also be speculated that he views hollows as impure, weak souls that deserve extermination and the Shinigami in the same light as they strive to purify them.

This view is opposite of Aizen, who, is in some ways not any better, strived to reform the Soul Society by exposing the inexperience and weakness of the current Gotei 13 by pitting them against the Espada. I don't think there's any dispute that having a single captain take out nearly a dozen captains and lieutenants without breaking a sweat should have caused Central 46 to call for help sooner. Unfortunately, it didn't and it took a full scale blitzkrieg by Yhwach to kick the Soul Society in action. The fact that Yhwach placed Aizen as a SWP over Yamamto proves that he not only respects him, but may also view him as a rival of sorts. The one question that baffles me is that why didn't Yhwach take Aizen with him when he broke into his cell in the first place? Does he view him as a personifcation of potential reform, seen as evil by the Soul Society?

I'm going to wait until this whole arc plays out to make a final decision, but I'm sticking with Aizen. :)

Rouge Slayer

05-21-2013, 02:35 AM

checkmate824

05-21-2013, 03:07 AM

Aizen is by far the more intriguing villain, although I think Tite kind of screwed up with him (would like to know more about his history with The King and why he felt the King was so inept). Bach seems like a pretty straightforward enemy, but time can prove me wrong.

Aizen accomplished more, but Bach accomplished bigger feats. Specifically, killing both Masaki and Yama. Those are much more significant events than anything Aizen managed against the main protagonists.

Andygoesrawr

05-21-2013, 05:10 AM

Rouge Slayer

05-21-2013, 05:56 AM

After reading through the current chapter from the start, I'm going to have to go for Juhabach. It may rather be attributed to Kubo's willingness to show more gore and such, but what Juhabach did to his Arrancar soldiers is really disturbing. His behaviour genuinely reminds me of Nazis.

Aizen, of course, was written to be the perfect antagonist to the story. However, Juhabach was written to be cruel and emotionless. As an enemy, Juhabach is MUCH more terrifying.

If Aizen had actually chopped Momo's body into unrecognizable pieces like he said he would, it would be another story.

Miss the fact that Aizen got Hitsugaya to stab Momo right in the kisser in FKT Arc. Even though Bach is ruthless, Aizen is good at the mind games where he use good players to hurt their comrades/friends/love ones. He really F up Hitsugaya's mind with that. I see Bach going straight to the point where as Aizen again the mind games.

Bach - painful and quickly
Aizen - painful, slowly, and laughable (him being a troll)

Andygoesrawr

05-21-2013, 06:52 AM

Miss the fact that Aizen got Hitsugaya to stab Momo right in the kisser in FKT Arc. Even though Bach is ruthless, Aizen is good at the mind games where he use good players to hurt their comrades/friends/love ones. He really F up Hitsugaya's mind with that. I see Bach going straight to the point where as Aizen again the mind games.

Bach - painful and quickly
Aizen - painful, slowly, and laughable (him being a troll)

The point is, Juhabach makes me genuinely feel sick to my stomach. Aizen's tricks are just that. Tricks.

ReiWen

05-21-2013, 09:09 AM

is there a third option? (i am of the firm belief Kisuke will end up evil) but truthfully i have always prefered Aizen i think it's a shame he isn't the final villan (unless he is Kubo is famous for WTF plot twists).i just don't think a revenge oriented tyrant is a suitable final villan so yeah my vote goes to Aizen
At the end of the day no matter what Aizen is the final chapters before his defeat were and always would be all about brute force and nothing more. At the end of the day there would be no Aizen in Aizen, simply because KS just isnt something that Ichigo can fight agains. It will alwyas look the same aka Aizen would look lame.
Besides Bach isnt just some turant. He on his own created a freaking species of supernatural beings. Its more than Aizen could even hope to acomplish with his experiments and Bach had no need for Suoer Ball. He have brain can think of plan, he react to even the smallest opportunities. Its not like Ichigo really could do much about the invasion even if he would be in SS. Still Bach even without regaining his powers decided to go only because he had one person less to deal with. Most likely Bankai stealing and the best transportion tech in Bleach are also all his ideas.

Aizen is by far the more intriguing villain, although I think Tite kind of screwed up with him (would like to know more about his history with The King and why he felt the King was so inept). Bach seems like a pretty straightforward enemy, but time can prove me wrong.

Aizen accomplished more, but Bach accomplished bigger feats. Specifically, killing both Masaki and Yama. Those are much more significant events than anything Aizen managed against the main protagonists.

I will never understand what is so intriguing about knowing that at the end of the day it will be "just as planed" and we wont even know how he came up with the plan, or there is also "I have the hougyoku aka( I cand do thing on my won, besides maybe having the ability to use even the smalest oportunity to tell a monologue about the fact that im the bast that takes almost the entire chapter".... but it just me:p

Miss the fact that Aizen got Hitsugaya to stab Momo right in the kisser in FKT Arc. Even though Bach is ruthless, Aizen is good at the mind games where he use good players to hurt their comrades/friends/love ones. He really F up Hitsugaya's mind with that. I see Bach going straight to the point where as Aizen again the mind games.

Bach - painful and quickly
Aizen - painful, slowly, and laughable (him being a troll)
Well Bach have no KS and well at the end of the day all Aizen did to hitsu and Momo is well.... nothing

Serocco

05-21-2013, 01:37 PM

Aizen's penchant for mind games ultimately boil down to "Imma troll you because I'm a prick." See his refusal to allow Tosen to kill Grimmjow, which results in Tosen feeling unsatisfied and Grimmjow losing his arm and rank. Another would be how he used Hinamori as a human shield against Hitsugaya when he could've used anyone else.

There are two underlying themes in his trolling. A, that he's one for pointless sadism, and B, that his mind games never truly stick. Even Hinamori has recovered by now.

JasonJD48

05-21-2013, 03:57 PM

I'm not sure Aizen will ultimately be a true villain, he is amoral for sure, but he hardly killed anyone at all, especially compared to Juhabach and his forces. We also still don't know his true motivation. Juhabach is much more vicious and much more destructive. I think he's a better villain than Aizen, but as a character overall, I like Aizen more.

delerio

05-21-2013, 05:49 PM

Aizen is more stylish/cool for his calm attitude
Yhwach is brutal and more efficent ( in one day he done more damage to SS than aizen in one entire saga)

pirateaddict

05-21-2013, 08:38 PM

I think panel tells us more about the difference between Aizen and Bach.
http://i35.mangapanda.com/bleach/519/bleach-3735617.jpg
Despite all that Aizen did, he didn't draw the attention of the Zero Squad. Bach and his subordinates gained more attention and caused more destruction than Aizen ever managed to do, not just in the actual battle but also cause and effect. The Soul Society lost the CC and his VC, 4 Captains bankai, multiple shinigami. Up until the point where Yama did start fighting they were almost overcome and their resolve was weakening, his death affected the shinigami much more than Aizen ever did. Byakuya almost died and we don't yet know the fate of Kira. The loss of Yama's presence is yet to be felt, it could be a good or bad thing that Shunsui is now in charge.

We also have the fact that the two Kenpachi's are fighting and one is possibly dead which means one more Captain is lost, a very important one considering she's head of the 4th Squad. The Soul Society has alot to do to be ready for Bach's return as he'll be even more deadly by then. He'll recruit more soldiers and even more strength, his impact has been much greater than Aizen's in a much shorter span of time. If Bach hadn't run out of time I'm sure things would have been alot worse, also the VR seem to be able to waltz in and out of the seireitei whenever they feel like it without being noticed.

It's hard to compare Aizen with Bach as we haven't really had time to know much about him, he's certainly more hands on that Aizen and he can draw more power from other quincies if he wishes to. Aizen is definitely a more smooth and charismatic character but I get a much creepier feeling about Bach, just his appearance tells you alot about him, Aizen wanted to control the Soul Society, Bach wants to destroy it. So at this time in the story I'd have to vote Bach.

ReiWen

05-21-2013, 10:04 PM

Well The Question of this thread is about who is a better villain.
Aizen can be a better character for some people, but Bach is the better willain and he still will gain more development as a character and as a villain. The only thing that IO dont expect from Bach is that he will ever be seen as more inteligent than Aizen, but this is only because Bach will never say something like "Just as planed"

jofosho999

05-21-2013, 10:05 PM

Bach is a lot more scarier than Aizen. The scene that really defined this was when he blasted both Luder's and Ivan's head off. By only pointing his finger at them. That was definitely pretty scary. And then he slices Yama in half with one arrow. He certainly attracts more attention that way, he's like an evil pirate lord. However, that's pretty all there is to him. He makes a great villain, and so far he's been the better villain by what he has accomplished. But Aizen is definitely more interesting and so far the better character. He never wants to kill anyone. If he wanted too, then all of soul society would be dead by now once he transcended. A villain isn't really about how much people he killed, etc. How about if this villain actually has different motives and interests. He just wanted to kill the Soul King. And rule over everyone. What's the point in ruling if you have no one to rule over. His actions affect Soul Society in every way possible, and his role in this arc will certainly give a jolt (I'm sure everyone is looking forward to that moment).

KittyUlquiorra

05-22-2013, 12:06 AM

Aizen still has my vote, i haven't been happy with the vandenreich since they have been introduced,i like that yay quincies survived the massacre but i don't like the idea of bleach ending because of REVENGE that is lame and uninspired.Aizen at least had a unique motive he wasn't all "you hurt my me now ima hurt you worse" that's childish and Bleach is
an awesome manga it deserves a better ending

Bala de Impacto

05-22-2013, 12:12 AM

KittyUlquiorra

05-22-2013, 12:32 AM

Aizen fans are gonna hate me for this, but it has to be said. The only reason some people still think Aizen is better than Bach is not because of his just as planned attitude (isn't it weird he kinda had the same style of tantrum as Light from DN?) it's not because of Kyoka Suigetsu, and it's not even because of the whole Admiration is the farthest form of Understanding (which I still give him props for saying that since it pretty much describes most of his fanbase^^;; ), it's because Aizen is easier to watch and get your jollies with than Bach, that's right folks, pure eye candy and nothing else.
Exactly my point,Juha is ugly,violent,cruel and sadistic.he's slaughtering innocents purely out of revenge,he has no reason,no motive other than complete genocide,i'm sorry but i'd rather have a villan with a motive,a good motive not just childish revenge.Aizen has just that: wanting to become what is essentially "god" is a much more viable reason to me than just plain revenge

Bala de Impacto

05-22-2013, 01:36 AM

But isn't Bach technically a God in some sense of the word? All Quincy came from him after all, and being a God technically is better than someone wanting to become a God. Besides, Ichigo said so himself after his battle with Aizen, that he just wanted to be a normal dude and not as gifted as he was. He just puts up that, I'm better than all of you, front out of pride.

Serocco

05-22-2013, 01:44 AM

DraMas26

05-22-2013, 02:42 AM

One of the knocks against Aizen would be how he simply cannot kill anyone not named Central 46.

Hinamori? Nope. Hinamori again? Nope. The first time, he's even surprised that she survived. The one chance he had to kill Yamamoto? He gets engulfed in Itto Kaso.

The argument that you don't have to kill to be a good villain falls flat when Aizen simply cannot kill anyone. It goes farther than just choosing not to. He's so inept at it that he loses all credibility there.

That's not the point of why Aizen doesn't kill.

When you're dead you're dead. You're suffering stops because you're dead. It's only when you're alive you can suffer.

Aizen doesn't kill because he knows he can do more damage without killing. Instead of killing his opponents and putting them out of their misery he keeps them alive. He let's them watch as everything they believed in falls apart. This is worse than death because this way the suffering never stops. You don't suffer when you die. You're just reborn as a new soul with no memories of your previous life.

Ultimately Aizen may even make people suicidal and that's what makes him such a great villain. He can kill people without his blade. He can make people who want ot succeed and uphold their beliefs lose hope and want to die. He can do all of this because he avoids killing his opponent. Juha can not match that.

Aizen not killing is what makes him different and IMO better than Juha. Juha can only strike fear in people for a very limited amount of time while Aizen can do so for almost all eternity e.g.

Juha's goal successfull - All the Shinigami wiped out. Yama has lost but he doesn't live to see the fruit of his failure (We don't really know Juha's goa yetl so I'm just going to extrapolate).

Aizen's goal successfull - All the Shinigami now have ot work for him. Yama has to work for him now. The future generation of Shinigami have ot work for him as well.

Who do you think strikes greater terror in the heart of their enemies?

Serocco

05-22-2013, 02:55 AM

I think being able to lob your limbs off at any time for any transgression makes Yhwach a far more immediate and everlasting fear than Aizen.

Aizen plays mind games that rarely, if ever last for long. With Yhwach, the damage is permanent and irreversible.

jofosho999

05-22-2013, 02:59 AM

It's not like Aizen couldn't have just finished off Yama. After he transcended he could have easily killed Ichigo, Isshin, Urahara, Yama, and the rest of the Gotei. He wasn't even worried about that, he simply went about his business to do what he wanted to do. And that was to defeat the Soul King. Sure he failed. But I highly doubt Bach will succeed in destroying all the shinigami as well. Aizen is more like the joker and Bach is bane. I was more scared by bane than the joker. But I foudn the joker more interesting. Both are interesting villains in their own right. I just prefer the trolling, mind warp villain like aizen over bach. His goals, intentions, are all very much in the dark still. The only thing aizen failed as a villain was failing to kill any good guys really. and that is my only knock on him.

checkmate824

05-22-2013, 03:03 AM

Serocco

05-22-2013, 03:07 AM

That's a great distinction to make. Aizen failed to kill the Spirit King. In fact, he failed to make the Ouken. Instead, he preferred to chase Ichigo's friends like some slasher villain. He also succeeded in forcing Ichigo to become a great warrior... which ended in his defeat.

Therefore, based on track record, Aizen was a failure. Yhwach's murder of Yamamoto alone led to everlasting changes to the Soul Society, particularly in the sense that the old guard is dying out and giving way to new blood.

Of course, Yhwach most likely didn't have that in mind (what with his demolishing of the Seireitei), but nevertheless, his impact is easier to feel than Aizen.

harahara

05-22-2013, 03:16 AM

It goes without a doubt and remains as a fact that Yhwach's effect on Soul Society was greater than Aizen's.

Andygoesrawr

05-22-2013, 03:59 AM

The fact of the matter is that Aizen was just a boy who became vengeful and angsty because he refuses to serve under something which doesn't actually really control anyone. It was only 110 years ago that he even learned of the Royal Guard, let alone the nature of the Soul King. Yes, he was and remains to be a master of illusion and deceit, but he has been written in a way where the opposite is also true of his character. His illusions were so powerful that he himself was deluded, and believed that everything he was doing was right, or even true. He strongly believed that the Vizards were failures, and that the Arrancars were true hybrids. When we know for a fact that the opposite is true. He clung to the Arrancars because he was able to subjugate them. They did not stand above him as pure hybrids. As long as Aizen remained, he would be as powerful as the most possibly powerful Hollow, because he was at the limit for spiritual beings of a single race. If he created true hybrids, he would've been overthrown. But did he know this consciously, or was his consciousness just another illusion created by the master illusionist within him?

I disagree that he is a better villain than Juhabach. In reality, he was never a villain to begin with. The only people he killed were the government (and we don't even know if it was actually him who killed them), who we know are manipulative and downright evil when it comes to the protection of that which they've been tricked into believing is what should be protected. Aizen was just a master of illusion, manipulating reality to work around him.

Juhabach, on the other hand, is a powerful and ancient evil. He's the king of the only people who could ever threaten the stability of Soul Society. He mutilates his subordinates to intimidate them, and kills them out of boredom. He doesn't waste his time creating elaborate plans to turn everyone in Soul Society insane. He rushes in and destroys all hope they ever had of defeating him. Yes, manipulating a person into stabbing the one person they love the most is pure evil, and is a good way to completely break someone, but to march into your enemy's home and slaughter thousands and thousands of innocents will effect threefold as many people as the direct victims.

What I'm trying to say is that Aizen works as the best villain to an individual person. He served as the perfect villain for Ichigo, taunting him into growing and growing until he reached the peak of his existence and defeated him. If not for Aizen, Ichigo would not be the person he is. He wouldn't be the transcendent being he became when he defeated Aizen, and he wouldn't have learned the things he learned through his growth. For that, Aizen is Ichigo's perfect villain.

Juhabach is the perfect villain for an entire race. Someone who possesses the power to take away everything which makes the enemy believe they can win. Someone who is unemotional enough to treat his own subordinates as fodder. Someone who is willing to kill his own children for the sake of empowering himself. He's the greatest evil the Soul Society has ever known, and he lives to threaten the balance of the universe itself. Aizen never truly posed a threat to Soul Society. He watched Ichigo's creation, and he wished nothing more than to see Ichigo evolve and become a being powerful enough to defeat him. Aizen is not a villain, he is a martyr.

That being said, Aizen of course still has room to become a villain more frightening than Juhabach :)

Serocco

05-22-2013, 04:22 AM

I think there's no question Aizen was a villain. His treatment of Hinamori alone cements him as one.

It's just that it's very hard to look past his ridiculously flawed reign as the main villain.

Kurogasa

05-22-2013, 05:25 AM

I think it's mostly a matter of taste and what you think a constitutes a 'villain.'

Aizen's goal was to rule; his personality is that a flamboyant, grandiose emperor. He wanted (and probably still wants) to depose the Spirit King and thus establish himself as lord over the spiritual and physical worlds. To this end, he only actually killed those he felt were necessary in order to solidify his power. He killed C46 so that he'd be able maintain his illusion and go through with the execution plans. He was about to attempt to kill Yamamoto - as the latter was the embodiment of the history of SS - in order to wipe all remnants of that history clean so that he could establish himself. You can't rule over the dead, and so he kept the casualties of his actions to a minimum; he wanted as many as possible to remain alive so that, writhing in the despair he wanted to instill in them, they would be forced to acknowledge him as their god and the one holding their fates in the palm of his hands. In truth, Aizen was a psychologically-oriented villain; he preferred to break his enemies mentally so that they might be subjugated. He's also a schemer. Every move he makes, every stone he turns, has a greater purpose. He moves slowly and deliberately, and he always has his longer-term objectives in mind, though it may not always be clear to an onlooker. I think that is what made him fearsome as a villain; he came across as the man that knew everything and was always 15 steps ahead of anyone else.

Bach, on the other hand (I refuse to call him Yhwach), is a warlord. His goal is "peace", but "peace" he imposes by destruction and subjugation of those that aren't like him and his people (the 'pure' ones, mind you). He makes no bones about killing hundreds, thousands of people that have done him no wrong in order to accomplish what he has set out to do. Unlike Aizen, he strikes hard and fast. He doesn't bother with monologues or psychological games with his enemies; fundamentally, he operates on the principle that the shortest distance between any two points is a straight line. His swiftness and brutality are what create the enormous sense of danger that surrounds him; he can strike from anywhere, at any time, and it's hard to predict what his next move will be, since he avoids planning too far into the future. Further, being the father of all Quincy gives him a distinct "god in flesh" aspect to his persona.

Aizen was a man of thought. Bach is a man of action. Aizen was slow and methodical. Bach is fast and brutal. Aizen was pretty and polished. Bach is rough and raw. Aizen kept killing to a minimum. Bach lets the blood flow freely. Both have made resounding impacts, but Aizen ultimately strikes me as an anti-villain/well-intentioned extremist rather than a "true" villain; I think he truly believes that the Spirit King isn't fit to rule and that if he were in control, the world world be a better place for it. Bach isn't concerned with such things, and the little regard he has for the life of even his own
'children' makes him the closest any major Bleach character has come to being truly evil, in my opinion. He also accomplished what Aizen failed to do; he left SS with a permanent scar in the loss of Yamamoto.

I think Kubo was sending us the message here:

http://d173.diamond.fastwebserver.de/series/Bleach/0519-005.png

We're dealing with someone FAR worse than Aizen.

However, having said that, I do think that Aizen is more intriguing and complex as a person, but that's probably because he's more of a gray-area character, whereas Bach is true black.

Bala de Impacto

05-22-2013, 05:27 AM

And if the unknown gender Senju captain says so, it must be true.

Serocco

05-22-2013, 05:57 AM

I highly doubt Aizen is at all well-intentioned. He's in it for himself, first and foremost. He wanted attention and recognition (even though Squad 5 gave him plenty), so he got it by becoming the Soul Society's most notorious traitor. He wanted to fight someone worthy of his power, so he could ultimately win and prove that he's the strongest. He wanted to oust the Spirit King so he could stand atop the throne in Heaven.

Yhwach is similarly selfish (see his reasoning for the purge), but far less of a megalomaniac (as he's already a deity). Neither of the two care for anyone other than themselves.

ReiWen

05-22-2013, 07:18 AM

WTF!!!? I cant rep you Andygoesrawr:mad:....Why cant I rep you yet?....cry
I agree with everything you said

At the end Aizen was pretty much unsuccessful in every area besides develping Ichigo and this still wasnt only thanks to him that Ichigo became so strong. He most likely had no idea that he wanted to be weak.
Also his motive wasnt really different than Bach it was kind of revenge. He didnt just came up with an "I want to be a good" idea. He knew abut the SK and he didnt like the fact tha the SK is doing nothing (For all we know the SK actualy is doing a lot and Aizen may never have knew about it) aka the SK was doing something bad in Aizen's opinion and Aizen wanted to kill SK. Its just revange for an unconventional reason. Aizen needed to take revenge on the SK before he could be the King and Bach needs to ake care of his enemies to be the boss himself....

jofosho999

05-22-2013, 08:11 AM

I think I'm probably arguing Aizen is just a better and more interesting character than Bach. If the argument was just about that, there's no question Aizen is more interesting. While Bach is more of the cliqued Vampire lord-like villain. In other words, Aizen is not really a villain. I see him more as a misunderstood, anti-villain of sorts. He really doesn't strike me as a villain sometimes, and liek many people said, he doesn't kill good guys so he's actually somewhat redeemable (somewhat might be taking it too far but still)..whereas Bach is an outright villain. So if the argument was that Bach is a true outright villain, then you can say that too.

checkmate824

05-23-2013, 03:12 AM

We're dealing with someone FAR worse than Aizen.

That goes without saying. However, Bach's impact and intentions don't make him a better villain, from a narrative character perspective, than Aizen.

But, to each his own.

Serocco

05-23-2013, 05:47 AM

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 05:52 AM

From a character perspective, Aizen is still not as good as Yhwach.

He was, at heart, a megalomaniac who turned into a whiney spoiled brat when things weren't going his way.

Yhwach has moments where he shows surprise, but he's never freaked out in the same way Aizen does.

Lol forgot what happened when Yama summoned those army of ash Quincies before Royd's eyes?

Royd copies people's personalities. The way he reacted is exactly how Bach would react.

That's something Aizen has above Bach. He doesn't cry when chopping down zombies of his dead subordinates unlike Bach:

http://i7.mangapanda.com/bleach/509/bleach-3609319.jpg

Serocco

05-23-2013, 05:59 AM

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 06:21 AM

Royd cried when he saw his fellow Quincy zombies, sure, and he kept crying right before Yhwach shot him to oblivion.

You talk about how he copies personalities. That last part was his own personality. He discarded Yhwach's character right then and there.

Yamamoto confirmed that Yhwach always had a distinct lack of empathy, as far back as 1000 years ago. He himself held the same behavior towards his own followers a millennium ago.

Royd is a regular human being born in the modern era as confirmed by his clothing in his flashback. He neither knows nor cares about Quincies 1000 years ago.

That reaction was Bach's reaction. Yama was just exxagerating. If not then why did he specifically bother bringing back Bach's subordinates?

Bach cried when he had to cut down his subordinates. Aizen wouldn't do that as far as we know so that's another thing Aizen has that Bach doesn't. Even when Aizen saw his plan falling apart, his eyes weren't filled with tears. Bach's eyes were filled with tears by striking down reanimations of his subordinates. I think it's clear who has the greater emotional strength :)

Serocco

05-23-2013, 06:32 AM

Royd copies memories and personalities. That's how he knows and "cares" about the Quincy zombies.

However, that doesn't mean anything regarding Royd's freak out, because it was still Royd, not Yhwach, who had such a reaction.

The reason Yamamoto brought back those zombies was because, above all else, he could. Anyone with that power would use it in that case. Even if you subcribe to the idea that he was planning on using it to gain a psychological edge over Yhwach, it was clear that Yamamoto miscalculated because he himself had changed his attitude towards his followers. It was after he saw Yhwach murder Royd that Yamamoto realized Yhwach was no different from their last fight, when they had the same ruthless attitude towards their followers.

If Yhwach really cared about his subordinates, why did he not cry when he blew Royd up? Why did he not cry when he lobbed off Luders' arm? Why did he not cry when he murdered Ebern and Luders? Why did he not cry when Berenice, As Nodt, NaNaNa, Busby, Driscoll, Jerome and Loyd were all cut down?

If Aizen had the greater emotional strength, why did he freak out when Ichigo slashed him across the chest? "Abandon your arrogance", anyone? Such a reaction, in fact, led to his fourth and final transformation, which in itself was a precursor to yet another "THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE" freak out.

Elementalist

05-23-2013, 06:45 AM

Theres absolutely no way "fake" Bach's (Royd) reaction when fighting Yamamoto was how the real Bach would react at all, nor is that how Bach has been portrayed at all since his introduction. Yamamoto said it himself, Bach has always treated his subordinates like trash or "ashes" which is why Bach holds the old killer Gotei divisions in high regard.

He also took Masaki's and Katagiri's powers away with very little regard in what could effectively be called ethnic cleansing...... There should be little to no argument that Bach has been set up and portrayed as an extremely ruthless cutthroat antagonist, the most ruthless antagonist most likely that we've had. The idea that he would cry over anyone is highly out of his character.

I agree with what Kurogasa was saying earlier, as well as what the Royal Guard themselves said, Yhwach is far more ruthless and depraved than Aizen is. Whether that makes him a better villain or not is ultimately up to taste as I've said before, though I believe that Bach is a better strait up pure evil character.

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 06:48 AM

Royd copies memories and personalities. That's how he knows and cares about the Quincy zombies.

However, that doesn't mean anything regarding Royd's freak out, because it was still Royd, not Yhwach, who had such a reaction.

The reason Yamamoto brought back those zombies was because, above all else, he could. Anyone with that power would use it in that case. Even if you subcribe to the idea that he was planning on using it to gain a psychological edge over Yhwach, it was clear that Yamamoto miscalculated because he himself had changed his attitude towards his followers. It was after he saw Yhwach murder Royd that Yamamoto realized Yhwach was no different from their last fight, when they had the same ruthless attitude towards their followers.

If Yhwach really cared about his subordinates, why did he not cry when he blew Royd up? Why did he not cry when he lobbed off Luders' arm? Why did he not cry when he murdered Ebern and Luders? Why did he not cry when Berenice, As Nodt, NaNaNa, Busby, Driscoll, Jerome and Loyd were all cut down?

If Aizen had the greater emotional strength, why did he freak out when Ichigo slashed him across the chest? "Abandon your arrogance", anyone? Such a reaction, in fact, led to his fourth and final transformation.

Actually Kubo made it very clear that Royd freaking out was Bach's reaction:

http://i3.mangapanda.com/bleach/506/bleach-3571767.jpg

At the start 3 SR, who Royd works with, jumped on Yama and got roasted. What did Royd do? He called them foolish people.

Now you believe that Royd cares about 3 Quincy (the exact same number as before) he never met from 1000 years ago yet he doesn't care about those he does work with? That doesn't make any sense.

The only answer is that it was Bach's reaction. Sure Bach probably treated his subordinates like disposables even 1000 years ago but there should have been at least some men he actually cared for. Three of those men were shown there. Yama specifically bought back those Quincies who Juha actually cared for and Royd responded appropriately.

He doesn't seem to care about any of his current soldiers except Haschwalt so we know that Bach does have exceptions.

Aizen has greater emotional strength because he didn't cry when his plan fell apart. Royd-Bach cried when his plan didn't even fall apart. He fell for Yama's trick. In fact Aizen probably has greater overall psychological strength as well especially considering what he did to Bach in Muken.

Theres absolutely no way "fake" Bach's (Royd) reaction when fighting Yamamoto was how the real Bach would react at all, nor is that how Bach has been portrayed at all since his introduction. Yamamoto said it himself, Bach has always treated his subordinates like trash or "ashes" which is why Bach holds the old killer Gotei divisions in high regard.

He also took Masaki's and Katagiri's powers away with very little regard in what could effectively be called ethnic cleansing...... There should be little to no argument that Bach has been set up and portrayed as an extremely ruthless cutthroat antagonist, the most ruthless antagonist most likely that we've had. The idea that he would cry over anyone is highly out of his character.

I agree with what Kurogasa was saying earlier, as well as what the Royal Guard themselves said, Yhwach is far more ruthless and depraved than Aizen is. Whether that makes him a better villain or not is ultimately up to taste as I've said before, though I believe that Bach is a better strait up pure evil character.

Read this post please :)

harahara

05-23-2013, 07:02 AM

Aizen has greater emotional strength because he didn't cry when his plan fell apart. Royd-Bach cried when his plan didn't even fall apart. He fell for Yama's trick. In fact Aizen probably has greater overall psychological strength as well especially considering what he did to Bach in Muken.

Let's not forget that Aizen threw a tantrum when Urahara trumped him, he completely lost his usual self. What we learnt from Yamamoto's South technique is that Yhwach still has a human heart, which is what Yamamoto emphasized on. Would you say that Aizen doesn't have a humane part in him? Of course not, even Aizen would break down in such situation.

What happened in the Muken doesn't have much to do with psychological strengths as it has to do with the effect of Kyoka Suigetsu. Take away that certain ability and Aizen would have not disturbed Yhwach's timing. (It could also be stated that Yhwach did not have his guard up while talking to Aizen - since Haschwalth noticed the disturbances and Yhwach didn't - nor did he care later on when he realized)

Elementalist

05-23-2013, 07:05 AM

Read this post please :)

I did and I still highly disagree. Kubo's portrayal of Bach has been anything but sympathetic, in fact I'd honestly say that Aizen is more sympathetic (depending on his backstory) than Bach is.

As for above, there is absolutely no evidence that Royd is anything but a Quincy, and we also have no idea the circumstances nor how he knows the people that Yamamoto revived with Zanka no tachi South. There could be a myriad of reasons as to how he knows them, but like I said before I find the idea that Bach gets emotional over any subordinate highly improbable. He sure didn't shed a tear during his little cleansing of the "impures" and the fact he even did such an act in the first place disproves your notion that he cares even a little about his own people to the extent that he'd break down.

Like I already said, I'll trust the Royal Guard's words which were pretty much proven to be true in the latest chapters, Yhwach cares about no one but Yhwach, save for when they can get him closer to whatever his goals are. He is definitely more dangerous than Aizen, because no matter how powerful Aizen was he couldn't threaten the state of the balance like the Quincy, nor does he (Yhwach) care for mind games. People say that what Aizen does is "worse" with his little mind screwing, but I'd think that being wiped out of existence itself (which is exactly what the Quincy could likely do) is much worse.

Its all a matter of choice though, and for me Yhwach is simply much more imposing and dangerous than Aizen was.

Serocco

05-23-2013, 07:14 AM

harahara

05-23-2013, 07:22 AM

Yhwach having a "human" heart kinda falls flat given how he's lived for over a thousand years.

If you meant humane heart, well, that also seems to have backfired given Yamamoto's displeasure with Yhwach killing Royd.

It's a manga for heaven's sake, leave such technicalities for other topics.

Even though Yhwach kills his own comrade does not make him void of a humane heart - it is possibly based on a philosophical and an ideology that Yhwach has about his own people and the world. The point is, even the most villainous of villains has a reason behind his actions, and thus a humane/human heart is behind it. Reason is humane.

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 08:32 AM

I did and I still highly disagree. Kubo's portrayal of Bach has been anything but sympathetic, in fact I'd honestly say that Aizen is more sympathetic (depending on his backstory) than Bach is.

As for above, there is absolutely no evidence that Royd is anything but a Quincy, and we also have no idea the circumstances nor how he knows the people that Yamamoto revived with Zanka no tachi South. There could be a myriad of reasons as to how he knows them, but like I said before I find the idea that Bach gets emotional over any subordinate highly improbable. He sure didn't shed a tear during his little cleansing of the "impures" and the fact he even did such an act in the first place disproves your notion that he cares even a little about his own people to the extent that he'd break down.

Like I already said, I'll trust the Royal Guard's words which were pretty much proven to be true in the latest chapters, Yhwach cares about no one but Yhwach, save for when they can get him closer to whatever his goals are. He is definitely more dangerous than Aizen, because no matter how powerful Aizen was he couldn't threaten the state of the balance like the Quincy, nor does he (Yhwach) care for mind games. People say that what Aizen does is "worse" with his little mind screwing, but I'd think that being wiped out of existence itself (which is exactly what the Quincy could likely do) is much worse.

Its all a matter of choice though, and for me Yhwach is simply much more imposing and dangerous than Aizen was.

But none of that explains why Royd didn't care at all about his subordinates burning but he for some reason cares about some Quincies from 1000 years ago?

Plus I never said that Bach cares about all of his subordinates. Don't get me wrong; Bach still doesn't care about most of the Quincies. However I suspect there are a few he does care about judging by how Royd reacted when Yama bought back some Quincies he didn't care about. I mean Yama bought those specific ones for a reason right? In fact when Royd-Bach was ploughing through them, Yama specifically told him to take a closer look at them:

http://i28.mangapanda.com/bleach/509/bleach-3609309.jpg

Why would Yama ask him to do that if he didn't already know that it would evoke an emotional response from Bach? Yama as good as said that there were at least a few Quincy that Bach cared about. After all Yama didn't even know he was fighting Royd so he could only speak of that which he knew about Bach.

I don't see any other way of explaining it other than it was Bach's own reaction. Nobody is completely black in Bleach anyway.

So yeah I'd say that this is an advantage Aizen has over Bach in terms of villainy.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's not forget that Aizen threw a tantrum when Urahara trumped him, he completely lost his usual self. What we learnt from Yamamoto's South technique is that Yhwach still has a human heart, which is what Yamamoto emphasized on. Would you say that Aizen doesn't have a humane part in him? Of course not, even Aizen would break down in such situation.

What happened in the Muken doesn't have much to do with psychological strengths as it has to do with the effect of Kyoka Suigetsu. Take away that certain ability and Aizen would have not disturbed Yhwach's timing. (It could also be stated that Yhwach did not have his guard up while talking to Aizen - since Haschwalth noticed the disturbances and Yhwach didn't - nor did he care later on when he realized)

Aizen didn't shed a tear when he slashed down Gin, someone who he had raised from childhood, so I'd say he has less of that kind of heart compared to Bach.

harahara

05-23-2013, 08:37 AM

Aizen didn't shed a tear when he slashed down Gin, someone who he had raised from childhood, so I'd say he has less of that kind of heart compared to Bach.

That's possibly the weakest comparison/example you can give. Aizen knew for a fact Gin was after his death. Why would he care for him? He was wary of him. Not caring of him.

We have yet to know the relationship between Ywhach and those comrades who have served with him during the Quincy War and died serving him - these people are characters that possibly were as old as Yhwach himself - childhood friends and very early allies that joined him and died serving his ideologies. These people (given Yhwach's reaction - were his Sasakibe's)

It's a whole different world between Yhwach's old comrades and Aizen/Gin's relationship.

Sariniste

05-23-2013, 08:37 AM

Aizen didn't shed a tear when he slashed down Gin, someone who he had raised from childhood, so I'd say he has less of that kind of heart compared to Bach.
Good point, DraMas. That was a heartbreaking scene and yet Aizen showed no emotion other than to say, "Thank you, Gin, for enabling me to evolve higher." Not only did he kill him, but he twisted the psychological knife to let Gin know that not only didn't he succeed in killing him, but he actually helped Aizen achieve his goals.

Gin's dying and the first thing Aizen wants to do is gloat and make him feel bad. O_o

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 08:40 AM

That's possibly the weakest comparison/example you can give. Aizen knew for a fact Gin was after his death. Why would he care for him? He was wary of him. Not caring of him.

We have yet to know the relationship between Ywhach and those comrades who have served with him during the Quincy War and died serving him - these people are characters that possibly were as old as Yhwach himself - childhood friends and very early allies that joined him and died serving his ideologies. These people (given Yhwach's reaction - were his Sasakibe's)

It's a whole different world between Yhwach's old comrades and Aizen/Gin's relationship.

True but that's the closest thing you can get to a comparision with Aizen.

Arguabely Aizen can be considered more villainous in terms of his relationships. As far as we know he never really created any sort of Sasakiabe relationship with anyone (this helps to explain why he was lonely).

harahara

05-23-2013, 08:41 AM

Gin's dying and the first thing Aizen wants to do is gloat and make him feel bad. O_o

Why would you care for someone who you know is planning your own death? Aizen never cared for Gin but to use him as a tool for his plans.

True but that's the closest thing you can get to a comparision with Aizen.

Aizen and Hinamori is probably a better example. She obviously cared for him -even after his betrayal- yet he couldn't care less. But then again, Yhwach's relationship with his ex-comrades was probably different than Aizen simply manipulating Shinigami's left/right.

jofosho999

05-23-2013, 08:41 AM

I personally think Bach did care about some of his subordinates awhile back...as shown when Rroyd was reacting the way he did towards Yama bringing back his comrades from the dead. However, Bach simply became heartless ever since that time. And now, the person we see, is heartless, ruthless, and doesn't give a damn about any of his subordinates (not even Haschwald really, although I think he is at least aware of him). But to say Bach did not have a humane heart is not true either, he does care about his own race I think. Well, he did before, now I think he's just after the Soul King's throne like Aizen was. Aizen was just an anti-social geek who did not have anyone to communicate with. His past is so in the dark that we have yet to truly uncover all the secrets about him. Aizen is simply a better character, very complex, and I somehow don't see him as a villain sometime, let alone a cliqued one. I really do wonder if Aizen cared about anyone...has he ever shown even a cent of compassion about anyone?? Makes what Ichigo said about him right..he's definitely a lonely fella

harahara

05-23-2013, 08:44 AM

Arguabely Aizen can be considered more villainous in terms of his relationships. As far as we know he never really created any sort of Sasakiabe relationship with anyone (this helps to explain why he was lonely).

Indeed, that's a different outlook on things. Aizen is relationship-less, while Yhwach -at least- had relationships. But did Aizen have a relationship before? Possibly someone he cared for back in his younger days.

Sariniste

05-23-2013, 08:47 AM

His past is so in the dark that we have yet to truly uncover all the secrets about him. Aizen is simply a better character, very complex, and I somehow don't see him as a villain sometime, let alone a cliqued one. I really do wonder if Aizen cared about anyone...has he ever shown even a cent of compassion about anyone?? Makes what Ichigo said about him right..he's definitely a lonely fella
Aizen is probably the most fascinating character I have ever encountered in a manga, and maybe in all fiction. He is mysterious yet compelling. Why does he reject all relationships, when he is so lonely? I have rarely wanted to know the past of a character so much. ;)

ReiWen

05-23-2013, 09:28 AM

Lol forgot what happened when Yama summoned those army of ash Quincies before Royd's eyes?

Royd copies people's personalities. The way he reacted is exactly how Bach would react.

That's something Aizen has above Bach. He doesn't cry when chopping down zombies of his dead subordinates unlike Bach:

http://i7.mangapanda.com/bleach/509/bleach-3609319.jpg

Royd can copy memories. He can only base his act on the memories he copied , but tbh he doesnt need to do it if he dont want to. He still is his own self, but not ompletely. The memories of someone else in ones head can completely change the reaction toward certain things since its hard to separate the copied memories from the original memories.
You cant say what Bach would do based on Royds reaction. Yama said that Bach already didnt care about his subordinates 1000 years ago and if Yama of all people brings this subject it mean that Bach must have been worse than Yama from 1000 years ago. Yama was surprised that Bach/Royd actualy reacted the way he did so its actualy very unlikely that the reall Bach would
You of course can think what you want, but this is just assumption and a big one. For all we know Royd actualy would want to see Bach reacting emotionaly to something like that. Bachs brain is still in the past so if Yama says that such acts are not something one would expect from Bach there is no reason to believe that its different

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 10:13 AM

Royd can copy memories. He can only base his act on the memories he copied , but tbh he doesnt need to do it if he dont want to. He still is his own self, but not ompletely. The memories of someone else in ones head can completely change the reaction toward certain things since its hard to separate the copied memories from the original memories.
You cant say what Bach would do based on Royds reaction. Yama said that Bach already didnt care about his subordinates 1000 years ago and if Yama of all people brings this subject it mean that Bach must have been worse than Yama from 1000 years ago. Yama was surprised that Bach/Royd actualy reacted the way he did so its actualy very unlikely that the reall Bach would
You of course can think what you want, but this is just assumption and a big one. For all we know Royd actualy would want to see Bach reacting emotionaly to something like that. Bachs brain is still in the past so if Yama says that such acts are not something one would expect from Bach there is no reason to believe that its different

You lost me there.

Narration：（弟である“Rの”ロイドは）
(The younger brother Royd, “The R”)
Narration：（姿形以外に相手の記憶と精神の全てを）
(In addition to his target’s form, could also copy all their memories and their mentality)

Your mentality basically is the way you interpret information and respond to it.

Bach chose Royd to impersonate him because he will be able to pull off the 100% impersonation. How Royd reacted is exactly how Bach would react. It's only after he was dying that his powers began to fade away and he reverted back to his normal self. Besides why would Royd act out of character and give in to his emotions in the first place? He doesn't even know thse Quincies and if he was using Bach's memories he would also be using his personality.

Plus how would you explain what I wrote earlier about Yama?

I mean Yama bought those specific Quincies for a reason right? In fact when Royd-Bach was ploughing through them, Yama specifically told him to take a closer look at them:

http://i28.mangapanda.com/bleach/509/bleach-3609309.jpg

Why would Yama ask him to do that if he didn't already know that it would evoke an emotional response from Bach? Yama as good as said that there were at least a few Quincy that Bach cared about. After all Yama didn't even know he was fighting Royd so he could only speak of that which he knew about Bach.

Really it's not an assumption because it has a basis. It's a strong theory. There is no other way you can explain Royd's actions.

So yeah as it stands Bach does have subordinates he geniunely cares about. Something that Aizen doesn't have.

Andygoesrawr

05-23-2013, 10:28 AM

You lost me there.

Your mentality basically is the way you interpret information and respond to it.

Bach chose Royd to impersonate him because he will be able to pull off the 100% impersonation. How Royd reacted is exactly how Bach would react. It's only after he was dying that his powers began to fade away and he reverted back to his normal self. Besides why would Royd act out of character and give in to his emotions in the first place? He doesn't even know thse Quincies and if he was using Bach's memories he would also be using his personality.

Plus how would you explain what I wrote earlier about Yama?

Really it's not an assumption because it has a basis. It's a strong theory. There is no other way you can explain Royd's actions.

So yeah as it stands Bach does have subordinates he geniunely cares about. Something that Aizen doesn't have.

I think the point is that Royd would also have his own memories and personality on top of what he copied. If he were to enter a state where he essentially became the person, losing his own memories and personality (100% impersonation), he would not know that he is Royd and would therefore be stuck as that person forever. By retaining his own personality, he retained emotional sensitivity where Bach has none. I don't see somebody like Bach losing his cool in the middle of a battle like Royd did.

After he was struck by Tenchi Kaijin, Royd spoke as himself to Bach, while his transformation is still active. That's enough evidence to say that he retained his own personality and memories.

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 10:53 AM

I think the point is that Royd would also have his own memories and personality on top of what he copied. If he were to enter a state where he essentially became the person, losing his own memories and personality (100% impersonation), he would not know that he is Royd and would therefore be stuck as that person forever. By retaining his own personality, he retained emotional sensitivity where Bach has none. I don't see somebody like Bach losing his cool in the middle of a battle like Royd did.

After he was struck by Tenchi Kaijin, Royd spoke as himself to Bach, while his transformation is still active. That's enough evidence to say that he retained his own personality and memories.

The point is nothing anyone is saying to counter my points are actually countering them.

You said you don't see somebody like Bach losing his cool like Royd. If that were the case then why did Yama tell Royd to specifically take a closer look at the skeletons he was destroying? Yama did not know he was fighting Royd. Everything he was saying was based on what he knew of Bach. Thus Yama knew that Bach cared about some of his subordinates. Thus Yama summoned those subordinates as ash zombies to screw up his mind. Why else did Yama want ot inform Royd-Bach he was crushing hsi subordinates? Last time I checked Yama doesn't like it when he sees leaders mistreat their surbordinates.

You can argue about it all day but it doesn't matter. I've thought about this ages and nothing else makes sense except it being Bach's own reaction. Yama's own words support my view.

Really I don't see what's so difficult to believe of Bach caring about his subordinates from the past. Bleach isn't that black and white.

Besides Kubo did try to make Aizen and Bach different. One way is in relationships. Bach actually has strong relationships with some of his men while Aizen does not.

After Royd was struck by Tenji Kenjin, he started to die and thus could no longer hold his impersonation. That's why he started to talk to himself. He never talked to himself or acted differently at any other point of the battle. Why? Because he was impersonating and his own self could not interfere during then.

Andygoesrawr

05-23-2013, 11:03 AM

The point is nothing anyone is saying to counter my points are actually countering them.

You said you don't see somebody like Bach losing his cool like Royd. If that were the case then why did Yama tell Royd to specifically take a closer look at the skeletons he was destroying? Yama did not know he was fighting Royd. Everything he was saying was based on what he knew of Bach. Thus Yama knew that Bach cared about some of his subordinates. Thus Yama summoned those subordinates as ash zombies to screw up his mind. Why else did Yama want ot inform Royd-Bach he was crushing hsi subordinates? Last time I checked Yama doesn't like it when he sees leaders mistreat their surbordinates.

You can argue about it all day but it doesn't matter. I've thought about this ages and nothing else makes sense except it being Bach's own reaction. Yama's own words support my view.

Really I don't see what's so difficult to believe of Bach caring about his subordinates from the past. Bleach isn't that black and white.

Besides Kubo did try to make Aizen and Bach different. One way is in relationships. Bach actually has strong relationships with some of his men while Aizen does not.

We've seen a lot more of what kind of person Bach is now when compared to how he used to be than Yama has. Bach noted that Yama has changed a lot in 1,000 years, becoming soft. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that Bach has changed in the opposite way, becoming much colder than he used to be. Especially considering likely everyone he knew before he was sealed is dead.

If Kubo was trying to make Aizen and Bach seem different, then he wouldn't have Bach reacting to Yama nearly the exact same way Aizen did towards the end of his evolution.

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 11:09 AM

We've seen a lot more of what kind of person Bach is now when compared to how he used to be than Yama has. Bach noted that Yama has changed a lot in 1,000 years, becoming soft. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that Bach has changed in the opposite way, becoming much colder than he used to be. Especially considering likely everyone he knew before he was sealed is dead.

If Kubo was trying to make Aizen and Bach seem different, then he wouldn't have Bach reacting to Yama nearly the exact same way Aizen did towards the end of his evolution.

That argument doesn't work either. Royd is a regular human Quincy not one which has lived for 1000 years. He copied the present Bach not the Bach 1000 years ago. He acted how the current Bach would react.

Like I said earlier, you can argue about it all day but there's only one answer that makes sense atm.

So according to the information at hand, even if Bach has gotten colder he still cares about those subordinates he had 1000 years ago which contrasts with Aizen who doesn't even care about the subordinates he has now. In fact this shows a different side of Bach. Bach cares about his past subordinates even after being sealed for 1000 years. I mean I don't think most people would even remember their friends from 70 years ago. Looks like Aizen really is better than Bach in terms of lack-of-attachment relationships :p

jofosho999

05-23-2013, 11:11 AM

The point DraMas is trying to make is that Bach actually had subordinates he cared for while Aizen had none. And because of that, Aizen seemed to be more of the "colder" villain in comparison to Bach, who probably had a lighter side to him ages and ages ago. And that probably cannot be disputed as it is true Yama was definitely trying to get a reaction out of Fake Bach without knowing it was the fake Bach he was fighting. Yama knew Bach had some kind of heart, but all of that was crushed once all the quincies were dead. And now Bach is out to get revenge. Aizen never showed any sort of remorse for anything..except for the end when he was whining about the Soul King. Aizen is really a mystery...I wonder if he even had a lover, or close friend before.

Andygoesrawr

05-23-2013, 11:19 AM

That argument doesn't work either. Royd is a regular human Quincy not one which has lived for 1000 years. He copied the present Bach not the Bach 1000 years ago. He acted how the current Bach would react.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that Yamamoto tried to use Zanka no Tachi South to elicit an emotional repsonse from Bach because perhaps 1,000 years ago he cared about his subordinates, whereas now he doesn't. However, because Royd's personality was shining through, he also showed emotional attachment towards his subordinates. Loyd's The Yourself wasn't a perfect copy, since Kenpachi was able to defeat him. What makes you think Royd's is?

I didn't realise I was getting myself into such a heated debate. Right now it's just based on personal opinion, so there's no point in getting worked up over it. At the end of the day we just do not know how Bach feels towards his subordinates because we haven't seen enough real interaction with them.

DraMas26

05-23-2013, 11:29 AM

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that Yamamoto tried to use Zanka no Tachi South to elicit an emotional repsonse from Bach because perhaps 1,000 years ago he cared about his subordinates, whereas now he doesn't. However, because Royd's personality was shining through, he also showed emotional attachment towards his subordinates. Loyd's The Yourself wasn't a perfect copy, since Kenpachi was able to defeat him. What makes you think Royd's is?

I didn't realise I was getting myself into such a heated debate. Right now it's just based on personal opinion, so there's no point in getting worked up over it. At the end of the day we just do not know how Bach feels towards his subordinates because we haven't seen enough real interaction with them.

Not sure where you got the heated debate from :confused:

Anyway that doesn't work either because Royd simply called the 3 SR who Yama roasted 'foolish people'. These three were ones he knew and worked with. Why would he not care about them but care about ones he did not know?

There really is no basis to determine when Royd's personality shines through and when it does not. I don't see any other way of explaining this without accepting it as Bach's reaction. That's the only way to explain it without making assumptions of ''Royd's personality took effect here but it didn't take effect there'' (the idea that Royd's personality can even break through is an assumption itself; why would it break through for some random Quincy he doesn't know but not for the ones he did know?).

But I agree with jofosho that due to his lack of emotional attachments, Aizen has an advantage interms of psycholigical strength. Sure relationships are good but they can also be bad and a lack of them can potentially make you more menacing of a villain. Aizen's lack of relationships is what prevented him from experiencing any mental/emotional trauma until the end of the Arrancar arc. Ironically it can b argued that the strongest relationship Aizen has is with someone he only got a glimpse of (the SK). This would also contrast him with Bach.