Pairing Analysis; Mutually Dependant Relationships. [Archive]

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Sinta

11-28-2007, 10:27 PM

Mutually Dependant Relationships,

This is my first essay in a very long time, so you will have to forgive me if I seem a bit out of practice, between school for my law degree and my masters, my daughter and my wife. The amount of time I can spend on this is decreasing constantly. But I am here now so I hope you will bear with.

This essay arose out of debate I had Starwing on the pairing debate, Starwing and I don’t always agree but our exchanges are usually very enjoyable as was this. I decided to write this piece to give shippers one more tool of analysis to their stock. I have already written on the Initial Romantic Relationship and a piece on love triangles. These all in conjunction will hopeful add more understanding to the masses. On the outside I have tell you this is a very convoluted discussion. The distinctions aren’t as clean cut and there will be a lot of gray area, however, I feel that if you can understand the lying concept it will help you in understanding both love triangles as an romantic element and the possible use, outcomes and implications of Mutually Dependant Relationships. With that lets get started.

(Sorry if this is in the wrong section}

What is a Mutually Dependant Relationship? (MDR)

As with any other literary phenomena before we can get to the bulk of our analysis we have to have a functioning definition. In general, I have defined Mutually Dependant Relationships as, a special concept that involves from the use of the love triangle element of story telling. Note that ANY type of love triangle (Lopped side or effective) , can exist as a MDR, and vice versa, you can have a great deal of overlap with the concepts and that is one of the reasons this discussion is so confusing. Remember however, that love triangles and MDR are different concepts and can survive on their own merits, Observe that a love triangle, in some form is almost ALWAYS going to be a prerequisite to a MDR; Lets start with

Basic Definitions

Lop-sided Love triangle is a relationship NOT equal in the terms of potential, time, outcome and possibility. The main couple of a story with this kind of relationship are usually already obviously in love with each, or a very strong interest, or are even already together. Usually this type of relationship occurs between two main characters and a secondary character. These love triangles will function as a “tool” more often then not. Either bringing the main couple closer together or simply adding an obstacle to the main couple. In action shounen, this is the type of love triangle that is used the most often. Animes like Full Metal Panic, Naruto, Vandread, Zero no Tsukaima, Inuyasha

Effective or Balanced love triangles; these types of love triangles are relatively “balanced” and imply that either participant in the love triangle has a real shot at the main character. These types of love triangle focus more on a single main character, either male or female, the interactions they experience with his/her respective love interests and ultimately the choice she/he will have to make between the two components. A lot of shoujo manga’s are designed in this way. Tic Parfait is really the best example I can think of. Fuuko Kameyama is the main character that falls in love (at different times) with cousins, Ichi shippo and Daiya Shippo. The ins and outs of their relationship is the theme of the manga and almost all plot development arises out of their interactions. Something key to notice about each of these relationships is that they are in direct competition or conflict. Both guys want the girl, and to some degree the girl wants both guys.

Mutually dependent relationships are relationships that exist in the alternative, when a story is set up with a love triangle that implies that the failure of one relationship will result in the success of another. This opens a great deal of possibilities especially in the debate and analysis area. In a MDR, relationships are set where the individual relationship dynamics aren’t as important as looking at the triad relationship and the factors that effect it. Inuyasha is a good example of an MDR; Inuyasha’s interactions with Kagome or Kikkyo (and the arguments that go with them) can prove the likelihood of the that potentially relationship. Thus

Arguments that take away from Inyusha/Kagome are in fact pro-Inuyasha/Kikkyo arguments. <------------key concept.

Notice that the took care of this love triangle so its no longer an issue.

That was heavy, let me explain again so as to make sure we understand.

We will use Ichigo/Inoue/Rukia as this is a bleach forum.

Logic, a MDR exist if and only if, an valid argument can be made that if Ichigo doesn’t end up with Inoue, he will end up with Rukia and vice versa. Essentially Ichigo/Rukia v. Ichigo/Inoue that exist in the alternative. (Here is a logic short hand -IC/RU-> IC/INO and -IC/INO-> IC/RU) The relationships don’t exist outside this dynamic (meaning there isn’t A THIRD party he could end up with) and the odds of Ichigo ending up alone (not with one of the girls) are very low.

So the question you ask yourself; is there a love triangle between Ichigo, Rukia and Inoue? (What are the elements of a love triangle?), then, does the SUCCESS of one relationship become CONDITIONAL on the FAILURE of another relationship?

If the answer is no, then you probably don’t have MDR.

Lets talk about a few more examples you can look at on your own.

I think the best anime/manga I can think of to illustrate the existence of a MDR are the works of G? Ikeyamada who is best known for her works Moe Kare! And Uwasa no Midori, like Tic Partiat these stories focus on an effective love triangle that exists in the alterative. Both stories have one girl (good girl) and two guys. The “bad” boy (who isn’t really bad) and the nice guy (who is really nice). The story is about the girl's reactions and interactions to the acts of each boy. The story almost feels like a point system that whoever can convince the girl is going to win, so you examine not only the individual relationships but how the dynamics between the components of the love triangle operates between all three.

A closer look at the process of determining if a MRD exists.

I have been beating my brain out trying to come up with clear-cut elements for the determination of a MRD. I haven’t been able to do that. I have however come up with a process that I think is most accurate.

Process
1) Determination of what type of anime it is

2) Examine the strength of the IRR

3) Analysis potential love triangles and the nature of those love triangles.

Include as;
a. Direct or indirect conflict in the interpersonal relationship
b. Individual relationship dynamics

4) Results analysis

Determination of what type of anime it is;

While this factor may be superficial it is actually a very good place to start has it will help you change your mindset. Regardless of what some of us want to believe Shouji Josei, Seinin and Shounen manga do have some defining characteristics. Identifying and taking notice of those characteristics will affect your IRR analysis. Ask what type of story is this? Who is the audience?

The strength of the Initial Romantic Relationship; (more commonly known as the IRR)

1. In this story (action) is there a main character?
2. Is there a female/ male lead? (Romantic interest?)
3. How does their interaction affect the story?

a) Evolving Nature?
b) Spend a lot of time together?
c) Do they touch a lot? Blushing on contact? Jealous
behavior
4. How important is their relationship to the plot as a whole?
5. What kind of supporting characters surround the leads?

The IRR analysis is going to effect what kind of love triangle exists. Examine the way the relationships are set up in relation to the plot; this will change the purpose and effect of the love triangle.

Effective (or balanced) love triangles are going to occur with far less frequency in a Shounen action manga that has a male and female lead, especially if they have a strong IRR. Any additional love interests are going to be far less likely to have a legitimate chance. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that a MDR can’t exist without the use of an EFFECTIVE love triangle. That is where the Direct conflict analysis comes in. More on this to come.

Lets analysis a few anime and see what we find.

Different types of anime with different types of relationships:

Full metal panic; (Action type)
Main (romantic) Character; Yes
Female lead; Yes
Strong IRR; Yes
Potential Love triangle; Yes
Is the Love triangle Effective? No

In this anime Kamane and Sagura are the respective main and female lead. Many of the plot points, arise out of their relationship, and Kamane was responsible for the change of the status quo in Sagura’s life. They both have obvious feelings for each other even though they won’t admit them. It is safe to say that an IRR exist and it’s a pretty strong one. Is another love interest? Yes, Tessa, Sagura’s commanding officer is very open and vocal about her feelings for Sagura. It is also obvious that sagura cares for Tessa. Is this an effective love triangle? No, there isn’t any implication that Tessa has a real chance at the main character. She doesn’t seem to have that kind of affect on him.

This anime is an example of a lopsided love triangle; where the odds are a MDR will mostly like NOT exist. Tessa is a third party to the love triangle and really doesn't have a chance with Sagura. In this case, even if Sagura didn’t end up with Kaname there isn’t enough evidence that he would go for Tessa.

I will take this time to give you something fairly solid to work with. As a general rule, a lopsided love triangle will not yield the type of interaction that will develop into a MDR. However, there are a few exceptions that may allow for a MDR in the right conditions. I will get to those exceptions a little later.

Fate Night Stay (Action type)
Main Character…………….....Yes
Female (romantic) Lead.....Yes
Strong IRR………………….......Yes
Active Love Triangle……...…Yes
IS the love triangle Effective.…..No

This anime is a classic example of a strong IRR with a potential love triangle that just didn’t go anywhere. This is anime is a good example that you need to stay close to the interactions of the different characters. This had a truly dynamic set that could have yielded an Effective love triangle and a solid MDR and it just didn’t happen. Focus on the main character that is where you are going to get most of your foundation.

Onegi Twins (Romance Comedy)
Main Character………..………Yes
Female Lead………...………….No (Or you could say there are two female leads)
Strong IRR……………….....….Yes very (between both girls)
Active Love Triangle…....…Yes
Effective Love Triangle…..…Yes

This is a classic example of a relationship that has an effective love triangle but NOT a mutually dependent relationship. The group dynamics of Karen Onodera, Miina Miyafuji, Maiku Kamishiro do not revolve around a choice. That is something that usually plays a part in both an effective love triangle and MDR. No, the dividing factor has nothing to do with the feelings of the main character, he likes both girls equally; the settlement of this triangle depends on a piece of knowledge that none of the characters have, which will tell them which girls is the main character’s sister and which is not. (which is the main plot element) The two female characters can’t take away for their respective relationships as it doesn’t make a difference in his feelings towards the other. This will not happen very often; most times if a effective love triangle exists so do a MDR

One last check; the very last thing you should do when you are analysis a potential relationship for the existence of the MDR is, and this is very important, examine of the relationships can exist on their own.

I will give you an example,

Lets say we have an situation like Ichigo, Inoue and Rukia; and lets say that both girls have all the elements to make a truly effective love triangle. (Equal times, opportunity, treatment by the main character etc.) The next thing you should do is examine the INDIVIDUAL relationship structure. Why might you ask? It is important to ascertain if the relationships can exist by themselves. The individual couples have to be able to function as a couple outside the triangle dynamic. If they cannot, then it is hard to make an argument for MDR.

Hopefully you have a clear few of the processes in your attempt to understand love triangles and MDR. If you have any questions about any of what I’m talking about feel free to ask. But for now I am moving on.

Exceptions.

The exceptions category is where I think that the most debate will arise. This is the category were an anime or manga display elements that CAN overcome or at least significantly change your analysis, THUS CREATING a MDR when one may have not existed prior. These are the direct conflict or plot focus exception and the Results analysis (Ghosts of writing)

Direct conflict analysis is something that comes out of a direct confrontation of potential participants. The author takes the two girls (or guys) and sets them up directly one against another. The two characters state that they will fight it out (figuratively) for the main character’s affections. This is a very powerful plot element that can overcome the IRR analysis and the lopsided love triangle problem. I will give you an example

Shakugan no Shana; this anime is a good example of a lopsided, though not to extremes, love triangle. The main leads (Shana and Yuji) share a very strong IRR, while the other love interest (Yoshida) doesn’t even know Yuji particularly well. So why isn’t that the end of it? The author interjects his intent here. The two girls actually state their intent to compete for th main character's affection. We don’t get this plot element for context and interpretation. We get it because there is a direct confrontation from the two female love interest.

One more example from Unbalance 2x, a quick summary.

Jin-Ho returns a wallet and cell phone to a beautiful young woman (Hae-Young Na) in a book shop, little realising that she would find out that he has already (rather presumptuously) taken 7000 won as a reward. The woman in question is understandably rather upset but decides to consider the money as a loan, which she expects to be paid back.
On the first day of the new school year he learns, to his horror, that the very same woman is to be his new homeroom teacher.

This story has a strong IRR and is actually a harem type anime. However the flow of the manga changes when Hae’s younger half sister comes decided she is going to make Jin-ho her boyfriend.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/Sinta_02/160.jpg

she is the teacher and main love interest; Jin-ho as already expressed exclusive interest in her. Which of course she rejected.

Things go smoothly until Hae’s younger half sister decides she wants jin-ho and to piss off Hae

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/Sinta_02/164.jpg

this is her; her name is Caroline

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/Sinta_02/172.jpg

This interactions becomes important because the author set it up in a way that now we know that not only are the trying to win Jin-ho’s heart, but they are directly competing against each. Note however, that the other elements have to be meet before this love triangle can become a MDR. Each potential relationship has to be able to stand on its own merits. The interaction needs to be developed to a point where the audience will believe that if jin-ho doesn’t end up with one girl, he will end up with the other. Thus a Mutally Dependant Relationship

The next execption is one that I dont place much stock in being the purist that I am. It has a tendency to exclude authorial intent and I'm just not big on that. I do however, believe that in some cases the arguement has merits. So I will relay.

The Results analysis is a Starwing orginia that I merely coined so i could give you a complete anayticial tool. If you want more information on it, howver you are going to have to talk to her.

I think I've been arguing that we have a love triangle that is communicated through different media, not just character relationships, but one every bit as important and perhaps even more effective. The effect I talk about here are 'result' based, determined by what kind of interpretations readers take away from it. I remember your take on an effective triangle, but I'm afraid I disagree with your priorities. Bleach is a commercial story, and while we don't like to talk about markets, it is a significant pressure. Just like the pressure all editors have on authors.

So if we look at the results, Kubo has split his readership into people that care and people that don't care. Then in the people that care, he has split them into IchiRuki supporters and IchiHime supporters. I know the proportion of IchiHime supporters are less in number and all, but that's not the point. The point is that there IS a conflict presented in his story, and it IS causing the audience to react to it. Therefore, by the basic literature rules of contracts and broken contracts, he is inevitably pressured to resolve this conflict. Unless Kubo is saying something SPECIFIC by not pairing Ichigo with either girls (and so far, he hasn't been that kind of writer and takes risks in other ways), the story will inevitably end with IchiRuki or IchiHime.

I think where we disagree the most are the fundamental priorities of a story. Sort of like the whole 'write for yourself/ideal reader' vs. 'write for the audience' debate. I am of the opinion that writers do both, but in the end, they are judged by how well they write for an audience, especially for a commercial piece like Bleach.

The Results Analysis is exactly what it sounds like; it basicly says that a love triangle and a MDR could be created because of the popularity of non-canon relationships. The pressure to address a problem that isn't necessarily there mounts on an author as they try to tell their story. In this analysis what is actually happening is not really revelant. It is what is preceived as important. (They are Ghost in writing) Example, Harry/Hermione from the Harry Pottor series. The argument says that an author that writes for her fans should address fans concern. So if fans think that Harry and Hermione, despite evidence to the contrary, should hook up, then the author should address that issue. This analysis works from the backwards forward and will run contrary to most of your other analysis. Thats why its an execption and not the rule.

Well, I hope you enjoyed this piece. I was going to do a step by step analysis of Rukia/Ichigo/Inoue but I think I will stop here as this things is already really long. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have questions feel free to ask.

ShuiMei

11-28-2007, 11:33 PM

Ah, when I saw that you had posted this I was happy to see it. I was looking forward to reading something new from you, like you said it's been a while XD

I don't know if I have much to contribute in terms of actual discussion. My way of looking at pairings isn't quite so methodological and cohesive as yours, but I will make some attempt at analyzing whether or not the "triangle" between Ichigo/Rukia/Orihime qualifies as a mutually dependent relationship...of which I think it does not.

First of all, I don't consider there to be a real triangle between Ichigo, Rukia and Orihime. There is certainly a triangle of sorts, but I don't recognize it as one that exists consciously inside the story as the only romantic feelings (and possibly intention?) come from Orihime's side while Ichigo is oblivious. Meanwhile, the nature of the feelings between Ichigo and Rukia is still very ambiguous and, even if the nature of the feelings between them are to be revealed as (or develop into) more-than-platonic (read: romantic) feelings, that doesn't mean that those feelings will turn into romantic intention, meaning that it doesn't mean that either will act on those feelings a pursue a romantic relationship.

With that, I do not think that it is necessary for Bleach to end with some sort of romantic conclusion, in that I mean I don't think there has to be a romantic outcome for either of these relationships. I honestly believe at this stage Bleach can end "openly," with Ichigo "ending up" with neither girl, as Kubo has done little to convince me that this matter between Ichigo/Rukia/Orihime can only be resolved if Ichigo ends up with one of the girls. This "triangle," engaging as it is for me as a reader, is not central to the story, it is not necessary to address it so far as I'm concerned.

So far, the only one affected by the triangle is Orihime. Ichigo, as stated before, is oblivious to her feelings and Rukia, though it's possible she may have some idea of Orihime's feelings, is not the kind of character to involve herself in such matters. The relationship between Ichigo and Rukia, though changing, is still ambiguous so far as I'm concerned, and unless something happens in which one starts developing romantic feelings for the other, I think an open ending with no romantic conclusion is still very possible.

Is it necessary to address/resolve Orihime's feelings for Ichigo to help her character grow? I would say yes. Is the only possible way to resolve those feelings through Ichigo hooking up with either her or Rukia? No. As illustrated by chapter 199, Orihime's conflict with this triangle is not necessarily because Ichigo doesn't return her feelings or that he has feelings for someone else, Orihime's main problem is an internal one in which she feels jealous and inadequate. I think the only way to change the nature of this disconnected "triangle" is for one of the parties to express/pursue romantic intention to one of the other parties as right now the dynamic of the triangle is a jealous and insecure Orihime and an ambiguous relationship between Ichigo and Rukia.

Anyway, I think I've digressed quite a bit. Back to mutual dependency, again I do not think this exists between them. Ichigo is oblivious to Orihime's affections, so if the series continues in which Orihime continues to harbour feelings for Ichigo without him knowing or without her pursuing and the two do not "end up" together, it does not mean that he and Rukia will engage in a romantic relationship. Orihime's feelings towards Ichigo have no affect on Ichigo's relationship with Rukia. What is preventing Ichigo and Rukia's relationship from becoming romantic is not Orihime, but rather a lack of romantic feelings or intention between the two. Moreover, if such feelings or intention never surface and Ichigo and Rukia's relationship remains platonic, it does not mean Ichigo will suddenly fall in love with Orihime without any development and end up with her- the two are not connected.

It can very well end with no pairing at all, that is, if things remain the way they are.
That's all I really have to say on the subject XD It was a pleasure, as always.

Sinta

12-26-2007, 10:10 PM

The following is part one of the results of a little study that I conducted to find out why particular fan pairings were more popular then others in Bleach. This first post is about Rukia and ichigo and subsequent posts will be about Ichigo and Inoue, Rukia and Renji and so on.

Note on methodology: There are two types of empirical studies; quantitative and qualitative. The first is quantitative. These studies are usually in the form of a survey or another type of point type system, and tend to be more causal in nature. These are the types of studies that you can do statistical analyses on, meaning that you can compare the mean, medium, mode and use other types of analyses tools such as standard deviance, and the bell curve. The second type of empirical study is qualitative . These types of studies, by their very nature, are quite a bit more subjective in content. Interviews is the most common type of qualitative study. My methodology was qualitative in nature. I used the forum and asked the posters for information. I also went through the various forums and looked for peoples personal reasons. This study by it’s very nature is subjective, i had to gather the information, put into a table and try to interpret the information that I gathered. This section is the result of an effort to effectively understand what is so appealing about the different character parings. We’ll start out with Ichigo seeing that he is the main character. In the the study i asked posters from different forums to tell me what they liked about Rukia and Ichigo. This is the result of that question.

I would also note that many fans though very willing to give their opinions in a Rukia vs. Inoue forum were very reluctant to share when directly asked. I think this was the most surprising thing I found.

Ichigo and Rukia.

Overview

According to most fans, the Ichigo and Rukia pairing, by far, seems to reflect the natural outcome of the story and the message that is trying to be conveyed. People that don’t instinctively (for whatever reason) latch on to another characters (Inoue or Taskui) seem to feel that this is the best and most natural couple in the series. These were the most common items brought in the anticipation of a romantic relationship between Rukia and Ichigo.

Their relationship is the driving force behind the story.

It was mentioned earlier that a desire of most fans for an Ichigo/Rukia pairing comes from the natural progression of the story. If Rukia hadn’t showed up the story wouldn’t exist. The bulk of the story (the Soul Society Arc) revolves around Ichigo’s desperate desire to save Rukia’s physical and mental well being. (though the second was inadvertent I think) It doesn’t matter what Ichigo’s reasons were because people don’t identify with his words. It’s his actions that matter. And many fans interpret Ichigo’s actions with someone that is in love but doesn’t recognize it.

Rukia’s and Ichigo’s situation has a reverse psychology kind of feel to it. Rukia is the main female lead (there are very few who would argue that) but unlike other anime’s like Naruto, or Inuyasha she is quite popular. (unlike Sakura for instances, Hinata for a long time was far more popular. I am not sure if that is still the case) Rukia is consistently third or higher in the character polls in Japan. This is very odd, one hypothesis is that Rukia’s and ichigo’s relationship have the classic anime mold, but not the classic anime characteristics.

For example,

Mold: Boy meets girl (or girl meets boy) girl (or boy) changes boy’s (or girl’s) life. Problems are presented; story ensues.

Characteristics: More often then not. This situation almost requires some type of affection if not romantic affection. In my Love Triangle essay (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=157104) the fourth rule discusses the importance of the Main female/Main Male relationship and that it is something that is so paramount to your understanding of anime as a whole that it’s a component that should always be examined. Never ignore the weight of the main heroine/main hero relationship

However though Rukia’s and ichigo’s situation fits the mold it doesn’t fit the characterization. For example, the two have little or no physical contact and don’t display the classic “blushing because he/she touchs me” act that is prevalent in so many anime today. The few times that Rukia and ichigo do come into contact are often violent in nature and even if they aren’t violent, they arent particularly romantic. (Ichigo carrying Rukia like a football comes to mind) This lack of initial forthrightness in establishing some sort of deeper romantic affection in view of their development as a potential couple has left something missing in a familiar pattern, or for lack of better metaphor, a link missing in the chain. This leaves people who would probably of picked INOUE picking Rukia, assuming the mangka had a established Rukia and Ichigo as soul mates from the get go. Essentially this phenonena causes people to route for the outcome that they deemed more natural, all while leaving their affection in place. (Often people try to fight against fate when it comes to couples Sakura and Naruto come to mind) Essentially Rukia’s and Ichigo’s relationship has become the under dog that everyone routes for. It would have been interesting to see how the fandom would spilt if ichigo and Rukia had the cliche instance attraction thing going on. (See Suzuka for example) In light of this analysis, it's really quite amazing the amount of supporters that ichigo and Rukia have especially since there is no CLEAR indication as to the state of their feelings. It’s not apparent if Kubo intended it to be like this or if he even intends to maintain this status quo, but he’s doing a bang up job nonetheless.

Their realistic emotional intimacy and growth (Relationship Dynamic)

This is probably the most popular answer that was given when it came to research conducted. Even though people may really like other pairings for Ichigo or rukia they just have a hard time getting pass the depth of Ichigo’s and Rukia’s relationship. Their ability to see into each other hearts and the almost force progression that results is something that can’t be easily ignored by fans that don’t have a fixation on another character. Fans see this depth and progression and then look at ichigo’s other potential interest and they just can’t see Ichigo “loving” someone that is not Rukia. (Or loving someone else while Rukia is still around) Furthermore most fans see the realistic development provided and just grow more and more attached as time goes by and as Ichigo’s and Rukia’s perceived affection becomes more apparent.

Fans see that Ichigo and Rukia aren’t people who are shallow when it comes to their emotional complexity. In not so many words Ichigo’s and Rukia’s relationship is so dynamic and so complex that it breaks down people’s emotions to see two people with such obvious attraction ignore their rightful place at each other’s side. Furthermore the perceived, though not often commented on, reasons as why they would be terrible for one another seems to just further the fire of fan’s desire adding oil to the flame as fans try to envision Rukia telling Soul Society that she is staying in the human world to be with Ichigo, forsaking her status as a nobel, her duty as a squad member of the 13th division and her relationship with her brother and Renji. Simply put. Reasons. The fans can see the reasons that these two would fall in love.

An interesting phenomena that should be commented on in connection with this variable is the tendencies of Inoue’s fans who understand ichigo’s and Rukia’s relationship. Many times in forum it seems that those fans who are not blinded by their fanboyism and at least recognize that rukia is very important to Ichigo will often make claims to the true nature of Ichigo’s and Inoue’s relationship placing Rukia in a category with Ichigo’s sisters. This is a very interesting idea which effectively displaces Rukia from Ichigo’s side and opens the path to him. Which of course would be filled with none other then Inoue the only other real contender for Ichigo’s heart. This phenomena comes out of a recognition that a strong emotional bond exists but an unwillingness to confirm the most likely path the bond will lead to. It is not conclusive as to why they do this but it’s probably because of their deep affection for inoue.

People identify with Ichigo, Rukia, or paring itself

This is the most universal of the answers, meaning that it applies to every couple that will be discussed. People like Ichigo, or identify with him and want him to succeed in life and love. They think that Ichigo wants Rukia, therefore Ichigo should get Rukia. The same argument goes for Rukia and the pairing. While VERY unique in some ways, Rukia and Ichigo relationship isn’t that unique in others, especially if you look at the boarder spectrum of anime. Full Metal Panic and Naruto have similar relationships in that the couples are violent to the point of humorous. Many people have this type of relationship in real life. The playful banner, the hitting, the flirting Etc. Many people can identify with this behavior (having a problem expressing their real emotion) and can see themselves in that relationship. They relate to Ichigo or Rukia and want them to be happy, and by extension want themselves to be happy.

The reasons people don’t like Ichigo/Rukia

1) Predictability: people don’t like it when something is set up as a possibility when it really isn’t. Inoue likes Ichigo but as of right now many fans think that everything points towards Rukia/Ichigo (its not really, like i explained earlier the fact that Ichigo and Rukia isn’t a foregone conclusion is what makes them so likable) They don’t think it’s fair for Ichigo/Rukia to be a forgone conclusion. (Which is the way that fans of the Ichigo/Rukia pairing talk about it) These are the people that go for the underdog. (Which is confusing I know many people think that rukia is the underdog) People want the gym teacher from Canvas 2 to win not the stupid little blonde chick. They fight against the norm because the norm sucks.

2) The nature of their relationship

The people that don’t like this paring feel that the nature of Ichigo’s and Rukia’s relationship is brother/sister. These fans feel that Ichigo’s actions towards Rukia couldn’t constitute romance but a deep platonic bond. These arguments tend to stem from missed opportunity then something that would conclusively point towards a brotherly affection, however as it is often said in the forums. That is a matter of interpretation.

Well there you have that’s the Ichigo/Rukia Section I will update this as soon as Inoue/Ichigo section is done. Later

Sinta

03-11-2008, 12:39 AM

For Fans of Ichigo and Rukia; part two.

First of all i'm not trying to turn this into a paring thread. I'm not here to debate probability of pairings.

This is part one. I haven't written on the relationship dynamic yet. That is coming.

This is an update from a study I did about a year ago discussing the reasons why fans liked certain pairings. Now that we are a bit farer away from the SS arc I wanted to update the discussion. For those of you who don’t know me and what I do, I’m not the one that makes the most articulate arguments for the pairing, if you want evidence analysis, Syn, Jenni, Justine, HaNa and or any of others may be more suited for that. In fact, in Debbiechan’s Author’s intent essay, she puts together one of the best arguments I have seen to date on the Ichigo/rukia pairing. Bleach OD also makes some very good arguments. On the opposite side, Earthforge probably makes the best argument for Inoue/Ichigo pairing though there some others who are not on this forum who make very good arguments. if you are looking for reasoning and arguments for your pairing. This little write is not an attempt to do that.

I want you to know this is not suppose to be taken as dispostive evidence towards a probable pairing. I know some people are going to have a really hard time understanding this, but its not really. Much of what I’m going to say is going to be analysis based my own observation and speculation. I could be wrong, I could be right. I will allow you to judge that

I kept my sample size smaller then last time around so I will try to avoid overly board generalizations in this piece. I do think that you can make some assumptions for the information that we have gathered, but I will get to that. This is probably not going to be as universal, however, I wouldn’t be surprise if the information and analysis that will be provided didn’t hold true for the rest of the fandom.

I Relate.

I think this is always going to be a basic part of people’s affection when it comes to a certain types of character, pairing or otherwise. I've gleamed some very interesting insight from my debates on the AS forum. People are more willing to make logical jumps if they hold affection for a character and pairing in which they share a similar personal experience. Two of the most outspoken Inoue/ichigo shippers told me that the reason that they pushed so hard for the pairing was because the situation they found themselves in their personal lives was similar to the one he sees inoue in. Authorial intent arguments are often used to justify this position as there is nothing in the individual character interactions that allows such a logical jump. (At least a reasonable jump) Remember, however this position has nothing to do with probability. In authorial intent argument is argument that is difficult to make as its in the future. Its based on almost pure speculation and in bleach’s case revolves around as single chapter. I think, that most shippers are subject to this line of reasoning on BOTH sides of the coin. If you look at many hard core ichigo/inoue and Rukia/ichigo fan’s posts, there is love in abundance for one and either indifference or down right distain for the other. (However lots of people don't care) This leads me to the point; often the most important thing in discussion is to understand why people think the way they do. If you can do that you can help them (and yourself) understand the flaws in your reasoning. Remember an advocate doesn’t have to be impartial , just logical. The logical advocate makes his arguments based on evidence, analysis and reasonable assumptions. The logical advocate takes ALL the evidence into consideration weights the evidence and developes a conclusion, but you don’t have to argue another sides points. You should consider the others sides arguments in the formulation of your own. This is what it means to be logical. (Well mostly)

Step back for a moment, why do people like the pairings that they do? It's because something about that pairing speaks to that person. Keep that in mind.

Sometimes people like character for superficial reasons, they like their hair or looks. Not to imply that this somehow wrong but anyone who cares about pairings will eventually take a look at the deeper underlying characterization of the characters and their interactions. This is where people become attached to their favorite character for whatever reason. I feel the "I relate" reason is more popular then the results portray. The reason behind this rather peculiar declaration has to do with my speculation as to human nature and the way we process information and interpret the story. Have any of you noticed that most of the members of Ichigo/Rukia FC are women? I think I can count on one hand the number of guys in the Ichigo/Rukia FC. I’m not saying that this is a bad or good thing. Just something to think about as you weight the evidence for your acknowledged pair and determine the probability of the their case. Rukia seems to be the favorite character in the Rukia/Ichigo FC. People think Rukia loves Ichigo etc. You can see where the reasoning is going. Remember, knowing why someone likes a pairing or forcing them to work with a definition of the elements creates an area of discussion. Discussion leads to understanding. Understanding leads to enlightenment. Enlightment should start the process all over as you become to understand more about story telling in general.

For practical application, Ask yourself these; why do you like rukia (Ichigo)? then why you like the pairing? How does this affect my view of bleach?

This answer seems like the simplest, but I suddenly feel like its the most important. This is the one that creates the most rabid shippers. the ones that make connections to characters on a personal level are the ones that have a hard time stepping outside their experiences and independently weight avialable evidence for a potential outcome. They argue their position so hard because its so close to their heart.

The plot changing relationship

I don’t think a single person answered this, and I have say that I’m not surprised. Ichigo and Rukia’s relationship was very much showcased in this classic anime formula in the beginning of the story. My Romance in Shounen Manga essay discusses this at length. In the eyes of some, Inoue’s been trying to under cut that foundation for a lot time. On the outset, understand that many anime have similar themes and plot elements. There are many that are in fact so similar that if you breakdown their core elements they are almost the same. Like Bleach, these anime are formulistic in their execution. They all follow a similar pattern of development. They use similar plot points, cycles and relationship elements to tell their story. They aren't exactly the same, thats not what I am saying, but there is a recognizable pattern in their story telling. Understanding the pattern can help you understand anime in general better. With this thought in mind, understand there are many who aren't shippers and who aren’t fortunate or concerned enough to look at the deeper aspects of romantic relationship dynamic. However many of these people would still say Ichigo and rukia as the most likely. Period. It’s not a question of if, but when, this is because of the that pattern. I don’t think people are outrageous in thinking this way. Shounen’s animes follow this pattern and similar use of elements because if they don't, it’s very difficult to maintain an effective storyline. (And this is everything not just the romance aspect of the story) I will make a general statement here one such pattern. It is not going to happen very often in anime, that a story will have a male and female lead and not have some attraction. THEY DOESN"T ALWAYS GET TOGETHER, but there is almost always a certain level of attraction (in a romantic sense)

To illustrate what can happen if the pattern's aren't used. Let me give you example.

Kaze No Stigma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaze_no_stigma

The main characters of this show have the classic anime main couple with a slowly developing romantic relationship and follow the similar shounen pattern of fighting stronger and stronger opponents along the way. Ayano and Kazuma display a very strong IRR (Plot changing romantic relationship) where ayano and Kazuma save each other over and over again. Much of their character development and plot development comes from interaction with each other. There are rival girls, romantic situations, power ups, training and everything else to show this is a shounen fighting anime. There is a key difference however, Kazuma is not weak! He’s actually, even at the beginning of the story, one of the strongest, if not the strongest character in the story. To create somewhere for the plot to go; they actually had to dumb down his character by making him go “crazy” and making him “weaker” in the process. This is a good example of too strong too fast and not following the pattern. The character has no where to go in his abilities. If that is the case, why should we watch him? This flaw is the reason shounen fighting anime are so formulistic; theses plots follow a pattern to create a path of progress that is natural and long lasting. You fight, get stronger and fight some more. If you are already really strong, where does your development go? (Superman is another prime example; he has one weakness) Have you ever heard the saying that perfect characters can’t be main characters? In the case of Kazuma, he’s already the strongest of the magic users so it hard for him to develop and go anywhere. There is internal conflict development path, and there is plenty of that in the story, but focusing too much on internal conflict is very boring, especially considering the target audience of an anime of this type. Romantic elements follow similar lines of patterned development. I can name a dozen off the top of my head that do so. There are many many more.

Now that you have an understanding of why these types of anime are so formulistic, you should be able to understand why an expectation arises of an eventual romantic pairing between ichigo and Rukia. I don't know how else to say it. This pattern is familiar.

People make assumptions on what they know. They have to, if they don’t placing the story in an understandable context is impossible.
I remind you that this doesn’t mean that Kubo couldn’t take this into another direction. People can make assumptions but it doesn’t make them right! Kubo can do whatever he wants, if he wants to, he will regardless of what implications there are at the beginning of the story. Don’t automatically assume that something will happen because the foundation suggests it. I’m not saying this. I am merely suggesting that this is the reason why so many people see Ichigo and rukia from the first half the story is because of this pattern. (And of course their interactions; the pattern means very little if there is nothing in the interactions to back it up) “The person who changed his world” is said about Rukia, and is merely another way of saying, “the person who changed the status quo”. Rukia changed the status quo and earned a well-respected position of main female lead because of it. Note there are animes who do not follow this pattern, it DOES happen, but these are the exception not the rule, and there has to be a shift of focus to do this effectively. If you try to force this it is an utter disaster to your story. (See Carvas 2 for a prime example of what not to do; Gurren Laganan is example of how a main female can be displaced effectively.)

The plot type, having a girl change a boy’s life (being responsible for the change in the status quo), fundamental creates an uneven playing ground when it comes to love. If you want your audience to believe, like, love, a pairing, and you’re going to take all that time to develop one as a main or subplot of the story. You have do it in way where they understand where the pairing is coming from. Why should we be happy that this relationship is finally getting together? Why do these people love each other and how did they get to that point? Why should I connect and reasonate with the building process of this pairing? These are all questions that should be asked. Notice, people can understand where Ichigo and Rukia are coming from and that is why its so popular. (It’s the same for every other main couple pairing; you can see the development of their relationship; if you can’t see or understand this underlying concept that should be the foundation then the story is poorly written. Period. Remember the use of romantic themes is deliberate. There are shounen anime that totally avoid them. One Piece is a good example. The author himself said, there is not romance, his characters are in love with adventure). If an author is going to create a male and female lead but want another pairing, they have to follow independent lines of development that are greater then this initial romantic pairing, or in other words, a relationship between different characters has to be developed. IF this is not done, your story does not connect with your audience. If you can’t see why two characters should get together, they probably shouldn’t. To do so is counterproductive and very frustrating to people reading your story. Good writers do not do this.

Lets take Inoue’s situation into consideration. Kubo had a perfect chance to displace Rukia and make inoue the female lead, or the female that changes the “new” status quo. Lets talk about that a bit.
There is much discussion about the expediency of cross relationship comparison. Can and should ichigo relationships with either girl be compared? People do this naturally whether they should or not. The reason is simple. Inoue. Ever since Inoue compared herself with rukia the treatment of Ichigo by both girls were going to be compared. This comparison does not imply that relationships are mutually dependent. There is no love triangle in this story, but Kubo likes parallels and similar situations so comparision I think is something that will continue to happen.

I think the best way to tackle the comparison and contrasts of the arcs is to ignore the development of the other girl in the current arc. Ignore the girl who isn’t being focused on. What do I mean? You should ignore Inoue during the SS arc. We aren’t really concerned about her relationship development at this point. Same with Rukia, we should ignore Rukia’s place in the current arc and focus on ichigo’s and Inoue’s interaction and reactions to other. (Only in the context of a arc vs. arc comparison don’t get it twisted) Doing this focuses the debate and helps us to understand the actual current relationship dynamic of each couple without any outside inferences. You are in fact judging the case that could be made for a eventual romantic pairing in relationship to the IRR. You want to make an argument based on the IRR or future authorial intent in relationship to plot elements this is the best way to go about doing it I think.

Take this a step further, focus on either girl. How did the arc change rukia in relationship to Ichigo? (same for inoue) Finally how does Ichigo change during the course of the arc? How does his attitude and attributes evolve in relationship to the respective girl and the plot? If you can’t articulate these points a cross comparison becomes difficult.

There are some indications that this comparison of the IRR of each arc may not be successful, especially if you look at who received the development this arc.

Ichigo obviously received some, he is the main character, his character development should cause or parallal the plot development, but his part is stagnating. This is an indication that something needs to change within his characterization as something is missing in his progression. He realizes that he wants to fight the last 120 chapters have been dedicated to that fact. That’s what the Grimm fight was about, but now what? Where does he go from here? How does inoue change or affect this?
Inoue of course has gotten some development, but oddly enough I don’t think her development was particular kind to her. Her declaration of love was very sweet, but then she shows almost paralyzing fear at the sight of him. She works through it but does this actual change her feelings of love? Should something like a scary face shake her feelings that much? Does it change the plot? Does it change the relationship?

Despite, what we have seen from the other characters who have fought, Ishida, Renji, Chad, Byukuya, Kenpachi, the only person outside the two leads for this arc (Inoue and Ichigo and the espada of course) there was only one character who received anything substantial. That was rukia. She received Individual character development in the mist of an arc where she was apparently forgotten. (Just ask inoue ichigo shippers; this is one of their main arguments.) it makes me feel that this arc is anomly, and that Ichigo might not even be the one to rescue inoue as the flow of the arc seems to be changing. This is pure speculation on my part. However, notice that it seems that this arc is ending. Aizen is going to the human world if predictions are true, and we’ll probably find out this week. The focus should be changing. If that is the case, hopefully, we can get an arc that isn’t focused on one or the other potential love interests. This will be the most telling for the future. The individual interactions will have to carry it.

I will stop there for now.

The commentary on the most popular entry is coming. i hope you look forward to it.

earthforge

03-11-2008, 05:55 PM

Sinta

03-11-2008, 06:40 PM

Hmm. Interersting as always Sinta.

Though I am an IchiHime fan, I read your analysis. Could you elaborate on after the series and how Ichigo and Rukia would survive then (from the perceived wrath of SS)?

Disclaimer: I am just asking a question of Sinta. Don't eat me alive for being an IchiHime fan, I do like IchiRuki as well but I am bringing one of my biggesf gripes.

Thanks Earthforge, I was going to do another Ichigo/inoue analysis but as i'm not real popular there right now I probably couldn't get the information I need. Oh well. If you are interested, maybe you should pool your FC and then do a write up on it.

As for your question I guess I'm not sure what it is your asking? Are you wondering how a relationship could endure after everything is said and done in the story?

earthforge

03-11-2008, 08:23 PM

What I'm asking is how IchiRuki would work after the war. Their relationship to Soul Society would probably be the lowest priority right now since their's a war and they don't care at the moment. However, once peacetime comes Ichigo's and Rukia's relationship would come first priority. I doubt Byakuya would support Rukia in marrying Ichigo. Wouldn't Soul Society share similar sentiments?

Sinta

03-11-2008, 08:48 PM

I see, well i don't know think it will be a problem if indeed that is the direction he would like to go. What makes you think that Byukuya wouldn't support it? I personally feel that he probably wouldn't like it, but he would allow rukia to make her own choice. He's quite accustom to breaking rules in this area. He did it for his wife and again for Rukia with her adoption and "saving" her (Yeah Ichigo had to beat it into him) Furthermore, Byukuya is no stranger to love developing in the most unlikely of places. Just as a side note, have you ever thought about how he and Hisana fell in love? His is a very prideful man. He's the height of nobility and yet he married a commoner? Just think about the implications. Also think about this, byukuya was more then willing to let Rukia go into HM which was against his orders. (He used a loop hole to get around it). He allowed Rukia to go to Ichigo be he knew thats where she wanted to be. I really think its that simple.

When I think about it, I feel that Byukuya understands quite a bit about their relationship. He was there when ichigo made all his declarations. Byukuya understood what ichigo was fighting for and how he became so strong. Byukuya saw what ichigo was willing to do. I think we can safely say while Byukuya has his pride he respects Ichigo. Because these reasons and many more I don't think it is that big of a leap to say that Byukuya would be willing to let Rukia remain with Ichigo.

As for them actually staying together. We also have examples of past Death gods staying on Earth. Urahara, Isshin, and all the Vizard (they use to be Death gods) It has been done before. I don't see any reason that it can't happen again.

I actually think this is one of the easier aspects of their relationship and could be taken care of with relative ease. Remember, Ichigo at the end of SS was already expecting Rukia to come back with him. Apparently Ichigo didn't have a problem with it. She also already has a place in his home. Wouldn't surprise me, assuming everyone stays alive, if she stayed this time.

I do however, understand your concern. If this was to happen, I'm not saying it will for sure. No one can know that. But if it was to happen, this issue would have to be addressed. I don't think Kubo could satisfy his readers (I'm speculating) and not explain it. I hope that answer your question. I think most people who anticipate this relationship will probably give you a similar explanation.

earthforge

03-13-2008, 05:09 PM

Here's probably where IchiHime and IchiRuki fans break off then. See, I really think Soul Society has evolved from who they were originally. This is seen through captain-commander on the issue of Orihime. He still considers rules above everything.

So, given his position on that I'm not to sure he'll accept a marraige between Ichigo and Rukia. It would be between a human and a shinigami. Yes, I still think they are biased against Ichigo in that way. He could always be called "not a true shinigami" despite his experience and pure-blood heritage. And Byakuya may still be an archtype figure in this, but as you pointed out he has already gone against the rules several times.

Because their marraige is not traditional and breaks several rules, I doubt soul society would sanction it. At the most they would forgive them. But if Soul Society oppose their marraige I think they would not leave the couple in peace. Even if Byakuya could protect them, his influence seems limited.

Disclaimer: I am only lightly arguing with sinta. I do not wish to argue with others because I find I can lose my temper easily. Also, don't toss neg reps at me. Send me a PM if you disagree.

Sinta

03-14-2008, 04:09 AM

Mind you this discussion is the realm of almost total speculation so i'm not sure we can really come to a real answer. (At least not yet) Saying that, to be honest with you I don't think Commander Yammamto will be an issue. Apparently they didn't have a problem with Isshin marrying a human. I don't see why they would have aproblem with Rukia doing the same. (But you know they are really both speculation, we don't know if there is a rule against marrying a human, and theres really no way to come to a conclusion without further information. We also don't have the details of Isshin's marriage and excile.) However, Ichigo was fully expecting Rukia to return with him, and it doesn't seem that anyone had an direct influence on her choice to stay in SS. Based on that information it makes me believe that she was left to her own devices. I think its a jump, but not totally outrageous.

I'm not sure that I agree that they are bias, but wait, hear me out. Those comments were said by Byukuya during their fight, and we all know how that went. Byukuya was upset beause Ichigo was displaying his understanding of the order of things and showing him up in power. I also think those comments were to illustrate to the audience how much Ichigo has changed. With that in mind, I don't see any indication that the others look down on him. ON the contrary, Uiktake, Kenpachi and the others display respect to him, for not only saving SS but for his personal strenght and conviction. Capitin Yammamto himself, even went so far as to expressly forbid him to go into HM beause he thought he would be needed. I think Ichigo gets more respect then you think.

The disclaimers are killing me by the way. I don't think you need to keep doing that. You and I see to be the only ones in the thread. So feel free chat with me openly. Could you answer a question for me? Why do you like Ichigo/Inoue?

WarriorsRest

03-19-2008, 09:46 PM

Sinta,
Concerning the lop - sided love triangle in Naruto. Do you still think the relationship dynamics between Sasuke, Sakura, and Naruto remain the same? I believe the time Naruto and Sakura have spent together in the shipuuden series in their search for Sasuke has actually dissolved or at least severely crippled the Sasuke - Sakura potential. The original triangle was Sakura in love with Sasuke and Naruto in love with Sakura, with Sasuke being indifferent to Sakura and Sakura showing obvious disdain for Naruto. However, we have seen Sakura develop a healthy and deep rooted love and respect for Naruto while they have fought side by side. It really expresses itself when Naruto brings out 4 tails of the Kyuubi fighting Orochimaru. Kakashi's replacement Yamato recognizes her feelings and flat out asks her. Also, Naruto still expresses his feelings for Sakura by his refusal to access the Demon Fox's chakra for fear of hurting Sakura. I think when Sakura meets Sasuke again she will realize her feelings have become more of a memory than having any real substance. Sasuke is almost a mirror opposite of Naruto in the fact that hate and anger rule his existence now. Naruto is motivated by kindness and love. I think it is a stretch for Sakura to portray love for anger and kindness at the sametime. So, since Naruto loves Sakura, and she is returning the feelings it's not really a lop - sided triangle anymore but an emerging relationship on a strong foundation. Thus they are in a mutually dependent relationship and the love triangle seems dissolved. Something that Sasuke - Sakura never really had. What do you think?

WarriorsRest

03-19-2008, 11:59 PM

Sinta,
I know we have spoken about this extensively. However, do you think a MDR exists between Ichigo, Rukia, and Inoue especially given the recent events of the Hueco Mundo arc? The actions of Ichigo speak more for seeking a fight than saving Inoue. Also, Inoue seems to have lessened in her feelings for Ichigo given that she hurt him by forcing him back when trying to protect Yachiru from Noiri. At best, the original love triangle would need to be classified as a lopsided one because Ichigo never has shown concern for Inoue past a friendship basis. But, I really don't think a MDR exists because Rukia and Ichigo were already on there way to a relationship before the feelings of Inoue were ever mentioned and their relationship will continue regardless of the actions of Inoue. Therefore, I believe the IRR of Ichigo and Rukia is independent of the triangle between the three.

earthforge

03-25-2008, 07:14 AM

Annie

03-25-2008, 07:48 AM

So you're basically saying that by not getting a requited love will leave you imbalance and fall apart?

That's logical...I love Depp, can I be with him now or I will just fall apart...

So IchiRuki shouldn't happen because Orihime and Renji will be left hurting?

The problem is you're not reading manga to make a judgement. You already have a conclusion and start looking at anything to support your claim and ignore other factors. It's not going to work

I'm bias but I always acknowledge the possibility of IchiOri. It's the direction Kubo is taking that doesn't convince me enough to believe IchiOri is balanced and equal as you've claimed.

I have no idea what are you talking about in chapter 286. Wasn't that chapter was the chapter the fight was already over? You're saying that Ichigo should ignore Orihime's fear if she meant nothing? Ichigo would have reacted even if it was cat that was fearing him.

Marionette

03-25-2008, 08:24 AM

To earthforge: no offense, but this is a story about people, not a math problem where you have to divide everything up evenly. And even taking in consideration of this logic that I don't quite understand, I still don't understand why Ishida's unrequited feelings are not as valuable as Inoue's. He lived alone and is used to it? So has Orihime and why does that mean that he likes it?

So much of what you say is unproven and your own opinion, but you seems to be using them as facts.

Ileenka

03-25-2008, 09:21 AM

I never did understand what Byakuya meant after the fight. To me, it just seemed like because his sword broke it meant his will was broken. Just a symbol in my eyes. But I don't think Byakuya thought Ichigo displayed his ""understanding" of the order. That's because Ichigo keeps on sticking his finger in that "order". Chasing after Orihime, breaking off slowly from the shinigami all seem like actions that would support the opposite conclusion out of Byakuya. He is rather logical.

I don't really understand this part. Can you please elaborate? I don't understand what has Byakuya and Ichigo's fight has to do with Orihime.

Ichigo getting respect out of captains like Ukitake and Shunsui is rather expected, given that they are of the old guard and believe in respect. I don't think others like Komomura are sure that he deserves respect. There's bound to be those that just hate him for forcefully changing Soul Society rules.

I would agree, except that I don't. Because I don't think Koma-kun gives a whack about Ichigo. Koma-kun only cares about Yama-jisan and his beloved Tousen-chan. :\

Being needed does not mean he gets much respect. I think Yamamoto was thinking of the ryoka and the forces as resources. So respect doesn't come into his decision.

You mean Ichigo doesn't get a lot of respect? I think deep down a lot of shinigamis respect his extraordinary ability for a human boy. In fact, though Byakuya would hide and deny it, I'm sure even he respects Ichigo.

But I think in decision-making times where dire situations exist, solutions to problems and actions that bring results are more important, more favourable, more practical than 'respect for subordinates, respect for colleagues', or ethics/morale in general. Because that's how most old societies work, and SS is generally a traditional society.

Sorry about the disclaimers. I just have a bit of fun with people who don't like me posting here.

But if you are having a bit of fun with people, I'm sure you can handle a bit of debate. :)

I like Ichigo/Inoue primarily because it balances all of the characters. You see, you have the three sets of pairings:

Ichigo/Rukia Ishida/Orihime Renji/Tatsuki
Ichigo/Orihime Ishida/Tatsuki Renji/Rukia
Ichigo/Tatsuki Ishida/Rukia Renji/Orihime

And yes, I know that the last one is impropable. But not impossible. Now, the problem with IchiRuki is that although you have Ichigo and Rukia in passionate love, Orihime will be obviously spurned. That imbalances her character. Orihime has dedicated so much time to her love/obsession with Ichigo. If she is spurned, she will inevitably fall apart. And that is just her character.

I disagree.

I'll tell you why with an illustration of my example. This is just an example.

Suppose I am passionately in love with Primera Espada. Now Primera Espada, has already have a very tight, close-knitted bond with say, I don't know - you. This is just an example. So despite all the closeness you have with Primera Espada, are both of you going to give up your 'love', mutual or platonic as it is, because of my obsession with Primera Espada? I might fall apart if you two get together. I might cry, get jealous, give him lingering looks, smell him from miles away whenever you two walk down the street.

So.. my question is, is there a chance Primera Espada might give you up and be mine instead because of my obsessive love for him?

I'm not sure. What do you think? :\

I have seen many IshiHime fanfic writers write her relationship with Ishida as more of a "now Orihime can go back to the way she was" before Ichigo. But I've always seen that they move her to a more happy-go-lucky character. The problem is that Orihime's happy-go-lucky character has been shown to be a cover for her actual character. So it seems like in IshiHime Orihime retreats into herself and gives the appearence of happiness. If she was all happy she'd have no depth. So I'd say that if she goes with Uryuu she will just be happy as a cover for what she feels inside, which she would be devastated.

But - they are just fanfics. And they are just, speculations as to what Orihime's character would be like if she got over Ichigo. And actually, characters in Bleach, all of them have grown. Orihime only displays her tee-hee self in omakes drawn by Kubo these days - and her character is drawn to be officially in a deep crush with Ichigo still. So you can't say that by displaying her 'happy go lucky' self, she has no depth - because at the same time, she still carries her very official crush for Ichigo - and it happens in official omakes illustrated by Kubo. :)

You could say I'm underestimating her character. But in the Hueco Mundo arc you can see how deeply connected Orihime is to Ichigo's lifeforce. Once his reiatsu left, she couldn't stand it. You could say she broke then and there. Thankfully, incidences out of the ordinary rescued her.

I think that is a far fetched assumption. She didn't break down then and there when Ichigo was 'killed off' by Ulquiorra and forced to be brought back to life when Grimmjow took her there. I would say Orihime was more deeply connected to Rukia's lifeforce. She banged the door so hard, the tears were so real, she really wanted to go to Rukia's side. "KUCHIKI-SAN!!!!" was her heart-wrenching cry.

So yeah. I don't think that saying she is connected to Ichigo's lifeforce qualify as a ticket to being his soulmate.

To call Orihime's love for Ichigo a mere obsession is an understatement. I think her love is true and if she is spurned, she'll never heal.

To suggest that she'll never heal would be like suggesting her character will not improve, and will not develop because she is still stuck at level 1. I think she will get better.

So you can see how with IchiRuki, Inoue is badly damaged. In IchiHime, however, not many characters are damaged. The worst you could theoretically say is Uryuu. But Ishida has lived alone and prefers solitude. I think he will find another woman, it will just take time. And plus, all of the main characters need not to be paired. Ishida seems like he can live with and without a woman, because he has no connection really to any woman.

And Rukia in both pairings is not hurt at all. Both pairings honor her character as she is. That's why many IchiRuki fans also like IchiRuki. It's why I like IchiRuki.

I don't really agree with your views. There will be a time when you find yourself having a really deep connection with one guy, and the guy same with you. There might be one or two boys who are head over feet for you, and there may be a handful of girls who are in love with the guy you connect with. The thing is, both of you have feelings for each other. But in coming together, 7 people might be hurt in the process. Will you sacrifice your love for each other so that 8 people can pair up with one another to minimise 'damage'?

That's kind of wrong, isn't it.

IUnrequited Love:

Now, before anyone can chew me off about how Orihime is forcing her love on Ichigo, I have to disagree. My evidence: chapter 286.

Now, why in the world would Ichigo suddenly start suffering? If he didn't deeply care for Orihime, I think he could have moved on with the battle. But he looked into Orihime's eyes before he went into battle. And what I saw was that he felt disappointed NOT in her but rather himself for becoming an object of sadness/disgust/pity. That was his fear, and it hamstrung him in the battle with Grimmjow.

This isn't a reason why IchiHime shouldn't be.

It isn't, but nor it is a reason why IchiOri should be.

Chad and Ichigo looked at each other in the eyes often before powering up and finish off their opponents. Ishida came to Rukia's rescue before Ichigo did when Renji and Byakuya came in Chapter 54; Ishida decided to rescue Rukia from her tower before Ichigo; Ganjuu looked deep into Ichigo's eyes and told him, "I can see you are different from the other shinigamis", while pushing him to the pillar, his lips almost touching Ichigo's; Ichigo and Rukia also exchanged meaningful glances way back in Chapter 10 before finishing off the serial killer hollow - but these are not reasons that IchiRuki should be, nor these are reasons that IshidaRukia should be, GanjuuIchigo should be, and so on.

Ichigo would never have felt this with Rukia or any other of his friends because, honestly, they can lie and say they believe in him. That's what Rukia could do with Ichigo in the second Grimm fight. Rukia cloaked her fear. I'm sure Ichigo detected the fear. Ichigo and Rukia know each other too well for secrets between them. But it didn't matter as much.

I think despite cloaking her fear from Ichigo, or despite hiding his deepest secret from Rukia, they can still see through each other. I think that's beautiful, when two people seem to know what each other think immediately. There are many scenes where two people at that moment know what each will say, what each is thinking, and that is the connection and chemistry that is essential in a relationship. And despite unable to hide their thoughts from each other, they still want to encourage each other - because they both know that only encouragement can dispel fear, even a little bit.

But Orihime's belief in Ichigo if she meant less then Rukia should not have meant anything to Ichigo. But it did.

However, when Orihime realized how she was hamstringing Ichigo's ability, she quickly rewrote what she did, and apoligized for her actions. She proceeded to ask of Ichigo a request that he echoed on the last page. And he followed through.

Chapter 286 was a chapter more on Ichigo's and Inoue's belief in each other and that belief keeps them going. And I have to say, just above balance, that is why I love them.

I think it is fair that you have your reasons for liking this couple, but personally for me, the emotional level at this point isn't enough to strike anything more than friendship with simple beliefs in each other. But of course, this isn't an opinion to be righted or wronged - it is simply a disagreement of both our viewpoints on the matter. I just don't see it that way. :)

NOTE: Sorry about being late. I had assignments, lice, and a cold.

I hope you get well soon. :)

edit. @Sinta:

Have any of you noticed that most of the members of Ichigo/Rukia FC are women? I think I can count on one hand the number of guys in the Ichigo/Rukia FC. I’m not saying that this is a bad or good thing. Just something to think about as you weight the evidence for your acknowledged pair and determine the probability of the their case. Rukia seems to be the favorite character in the Rukia/Ichigo FC. People think Rukia loves Ichigo etc. You can see where the reasoning is going. Remember, knowing why someone likes a pairing or forcing them to work with a definition of the elements creates an area of discussion. Discussion leads to understanding. Understanding leads to enlightenment. Enlightment should start the process all over as you become to understand more about story telling in general.

I don't understand the point of this part of your post. I don't think gender matters if you're shipping Ichigo/Rukia or Ichigo/Orihime or Ichi/Ganjuu. Well okay, if you're a guy and you're shipping Ichi/Ganjuu then it's kinda obvious where your sexual preferences lie - however, it all comes back to my original intention: It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't. Since you've already said it's not a good nor a bad thing, so why should it matter?

It doesn't, and it shouldn't, and therefore this factor does not really contribute to the discussion, unless you can offer some 'enlightenment' as to why should gender matter in shipping. Also, what I meant to say was that in general, 8/10 shippers are women. So you can't say that through your sole observation of Ichigo/Rukia shippers, many are women. It's just that in general, most shippers are women. So you would definitely get the majority of women in whatever shipping category there is.

For practical application, Ask yourself these; why do you like rukia (Ichigo)? then why you like the pairing? How does this affect my view of bleach?

I'm not sure how there would be practical application on a manga pairing to my real life, and I hope I did not sound offensive. But liking this couple doesn't really affect my view on Bleach. This pair has been the main relationship since Day 1, and although we have been seeing nothing but fights since post-SS, the original establishment that this pairing, platonic or romantic-pending OR NOT, is the main friendship of Bleach. Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter.

This answer seems like the simplest, but I suddenly feel like its the most important. This is the one that creates the most rabid shippers. the ones that make connections to characters on a personal level are the ones that have a hard time stepping outside their experiences and independently weight avialable evidence for a potential outcome. They argue their position so hard because its so close to their heart.

Sometimes, I am not very comfortable with how you insert psychological factors in your shipping essays. We ship because there is a period of obsession in everyone's lives in one point or another. There shouldn't be a study to understand why one person is addicted to PS3 Sims 2 or Wii Guitar Hero 3.

I think it is also alright if you assume and generalise this based on some sort of gut instincts or plain observation, but I must tell you that this should not be the basis to judge all shippers. My reputation is 'batshit insane and freaking rabid'. I can be rabid if provoked, but that being said, I am rabid not because I relate to Rukia's position in having killed her superior, nor do I relate to either of Ichigo or Rukia's relationship, but I am rabid because of my personal character.

This can be said as a pure flaw of my human character, or an extreme fault - because I, to be honest, can be a rabid Elmo hater, Ernie hater, or a Kermit the Frog lover. But the reasons as to why I feel this way, shouldn't be included in the discussion of a shipping essay. I just think that, to talk about Ichigo/Rukia or Ichigo/Orihime or Ishida/Ichigo, we should just talk about these things. In Bleach. And not about why shippers ship them. It's a study about shipping, not about shippers.

And sometimes you know, I'm just feeling all of this is so tiresome and hilarious, because hundreds of people in fandom are trying to figure out what Kubo is planning, how his mind is working, and what is he going to come up next - be it plot, fights, or relationships. You have all these shippers offering hundreds of studies and analyses and hypotheses as to what is probable, what is logical, what is rational, by using means of references and resources from other anime, and manga - but to me at the end of the day, I feel all these are still pointless.

I just have this image, you know of 20 men in white - hovering over a test subject in some sort of a laboratory, trying to come up with some prediction or conclusion to explain away the mystery that is lying on the operation table in front of them. And all of them have no idea what is the object comprises of because it comes from a foreign planet - like Doritos from Jupiter or something. Kubo has fooled us many times. Relationships will evolve eventually. Where it will take us, only time will tell. I still believe in Ichigo/Rukia, but my heart isn't really in the discussion anymore at this point because I don't want to cut out the Doritos to inspect why did the manufacturer choose the food colouring orange and not green - like what we're doing now - trying to find enlightenment where it doesn't really exist.

I hope I made some sort of sense, at least o-o. And I don't mean to offend anyone as I'm so exhausted these days with fandom and not to mention real life in the mix of it all. I'm just saying things as I feel they are.

Sinta

03-25-2008, 02:28 PM

Ileenka

Earthforge: I will get to your comments when i have the time.

I don't understand the point of this part of your post. I don't think gender matters if you're shipping Ichigo/Rukia or Ichigo/Orihime or Ichi/Ganjuu. Well okay, if you're a guy and you're shipping Ichi/Ganjuu then it's kinda obvious where your sexual preferences lie - however, it all comes back to my original intention: It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't. Since you've already said it's not a good nor a bad thing, so why should it matter?

It doesn't, and it shouldn't, and therefore this factor does not really contribute to the discussion, unless you can offer some 'enlightenment' as to why should gender matter in shipping. Also, what I meant to say was that in general, 8/10 shippers are women. So you can't say that through your sole observation of Ichigo/Rukia shippers, many are women. It's just that in general, most shippers are women. So you would definitely get the majority of women in whatever shipping category there is.

Actually I don't know if it is a good or bad thing or if it does or does not matter. I brought it up because I thought it could be significant in understanding the way fandoms think which was the point of the post.

I also disagree that the majority of shippers are women as I can see there are a great deal of guys in the shipping community not that it matters I was making an obersvation about our FC as I thought it would interesting to bring it to the attention of our FC. I wanted to see what they thought about it as it was something that I noticed. That is all it doesn't change anything in likelihood of pairings.

I'm not sure how there would be practical application on a manga pairing to my real life, and I hope I did not sound offensive. But liking this couple doesn't really affect my view on Bleach. This pair has been the main relationship since Day 1, and although we have been seeing nothing but fights since post-SS, the original establishment that this pairing, platonic or romantic-pending OR NOT, is the main friendship of Bleach. Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter.

I don't think I said this should be applied to your real life? If some that was not my intention.

I was speaking of practical application, not to real life, but to analysis for bleach, manga or any literary piece. It comes down to discussion knowing why someone believes the way they do can be as important as the evidence that goes into an analysis. I ask the question. "Why does someone interpret something they way that they do?" Why do I ask this question because i am trying to understand their interpretation which is obviously different then mine. I think their personal beliefs often have a huge part of this and if i can understand this, I can understand their argument better. You don't seem to care about understanding people's arguments, THAT IS OK, I don't fault you for it. But I hope that you won't fault me for trying and therefore bringing it up.

Sometimes, I am not very comfortable with how you insert psychological factors in your shipping essays. We ship because there is a period of obsession in everyone's lives in one point or another. There shouldn't be a study to understand why one person is addicted to PS3 Sims 2 or Wii Guitar Hero 3.

Oddly enough, i'm not often very comfortable with how you simplify everything and see everything as black and white. Funny how that happens sometimes, I still love you though.

I think that psychological factors are as important as any in determining why a person likes something and how it affects their shipping practices. If you don't feel like adding them thats ok. No is going to force you. However, I have added them to this discussion so you will have to forgive me.

I think it is also alright if you assume and generalise this based on some sort of gut instincts or plain observation, but I must tell you that this should not be the basis to judge all shippers. My reputation is 'batshit insane and freaking rabid'. I can be rabid if provoked, but that being said, I am rabid not because I relate to Rukia's position in having killed her superior, nor do I relate to either of Ichigo or Rukia's relationship, but I am rabid because of my personal character.

You rabid, no I would have never thought that;)...like i said this is my oberservation, right wrong or indifferent that is how I view it. You are welcome to disagree. What I was looking for is discussion and it looks like that happened. Lucky me.

This can be said as a pure flaw of my human character, or an extreme fault - because I, to be honest, can be a rabid Elmo hater, Ernie hater, or a Kermit the Frog lover. But the reasons as to why I feel this way, shouldn't be included in the discussion of a shipping essay. I just think that, to talk about Ichigo/Rukia or Ichigo/Orihime or Ishida/Ichigo, we should just talk about these things. In Bleach. And not about why shippers ship them. It's a study about shipping, not about shippers.

Who said this was a shipping essay? As matter of fact that wasn't the point of this essay at all. I thought I made that very clear that this essay was not going to talk about the probability of pairing. That being said why can't it be discussed? I thought forums was for the exchange of ideas? I think its important to know what people are thinking and why as it give you more information to work with. At the very least knowing knowing where people are coming from gives your additional information for a debate. Additional information is always perferrable, at least in my opinion.

What it comes down to if you don't think it should be discussed then you shouldn't join the discussion not tell me not to write about it.

And sometimes you know, I'm just feeling all of this is so tiresome and hilarious, because hundreds of people in fandom are trying to figure out what Kubo is planning, how his mind is working, and what is he going to come up next - be it plot, fights, or relationships. You have all these shippers offering hundreds of studies and analyses and hypotheses as to what is probable, what is logical, what is rational, by using means of references and resources from other anime, and manga - but to me at the end of the day, I feel all these are still pointless.

Thats ok, you are welcome to feel that way, but you will forgive those of us who don't. Your opinion is as valued as everyone else and if you feel discontent that is fine. Do as you please. I am interested in what people have to say and so I write hoping to stimulate thought and discussion. I want discussion outside the realm of the Ichigo/inoue v. Ichigo/rukia as I feel there is more there to discuss then just that dynamic. I don't feel its pointless that is why I write about it.

I just have this image, you know of 20 men in white - hovering over a test subject in some sort of a laboratory, trying to come up with some prediction or conclusion to explain away the mystery that is lying on the operation table in front of them. And all of them have no idea what is the object comprises of because it comes from a foreign planet - like Doritos from Jupiter or something. Kubo has fooled us many times. Relationships will evolve eventually. Where it will take us, only time will tell. I still believe in Ichigo/Rukia, but my heart isn't really in the discussion anymore at this point because I don't want to cut out the Doritos to inspect why did the manufacturer choose the food colouring orange and not green - like what we're doing now - trying to find enlightenment where it doesn't really exist.

I feel like you are misunderstanding the nature of this post. I wasn't trying to predict anything. (Or did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?) I was trying understand the behavior of those who reads Kubo's work as I think that can give insight. I think enlightenment can exist depending on what you are looking for or what type of knowledge exists. Information, all that was discussed commented upon and brought up was put forth with a varying degree of believe so it could stimulate the exchange of information. If you don't feel like participating in that discussion, I'm sorry to lose you as I enjoy your posts and comments, but if you feel disassiociated with the process then maybe you should step away.

I want you to know that I also believe in ichigo and Rukia, that hasn't changed. I'm not so attached to them I couldn't change my mind. (I'm more interested in the process then the conclusion) For me the discussion is what is important even If i disagree and get annoyed with people. I'm still happy to discuss any and all aspects of the this topic.

I hope I made some sort of sense, at least o-o. And I don't mean to offend anyone as I'm so exhausted these days with fandom and not to mention real life in the mix of it all. I'm just saying things as I feel they are.

You are always welcome to say how you feel. I enjoy you and your comments; I will always listen even if i don't agree. You seem tried and frustrated for some reason. I hope i didn't add to that as it was not my intention. I was just trying to get a discussion going that all. Forgive me if I upset you.

Edit: You know after reading my post again i did make some shippers comments didn't I? So I see a bit more what you were talking about. I hope you forgive me.

earthforge

03-25-2008, 04:42 PM

Annie:

I don't think so. Rukia is probably innately afraid of him. His friends probably are. But Ichigo just acknowledges that. My evidence is right after the battle with Grimm take two. Rukia was commenting on the power, and she did look worried/afraid. That is the reaction of a good sibling.

Whereas I meant by the second part that Orihime's connection to Ichigo is obvious, but Ichigo is also connected to Orihime. Why would he suddenly hurt? You can't take this evidence lightly, just as you can't take a chapter where Ichigo and Rukia look lovingly into each others eyes. He would not freak out if it was someone else. That turns his character rather weak and pathetic. The goal of Ichigo's character is to become what his name suggests: "one who protects." Lets not undermine his character.

Look, Bleach is unreal. You can't make real connections because of this. For example, it's hard to say you're like Rukia or Orihime. They are actually flip sides of a coin. So if a person was trying to relate themselves to a character have to relate to both.

The nice thing about IchiRuki is that it is much more plausible in real life then IchiHime. IchiHime, though, only seems inplausible because the characters are hard to be like. IchiRuki is actually the same way, but I can count on two hands how many times Rukia's character either radically changed or Ichigo's character radically changed.

Renji won't be hurting, BTW. He can easily make the jump between lover and friend.

Orihime however, would. And I told you the best scenario. The worst scenario which she could probably do would be to suicide. She would always feel like she wasn't good enough for Ichigo. And some of you would say that's good. But it's not. Orihime is the series innocence and purity. The main reason why Ichigo and Rukia cannot get together is that it kills their best friend. Rukia would be lost and probably jump out of the relationship.

The same will never happen to Rukia on the other side.

I consider the feelings of Orihime over Ishida because who is more fragile?

Marionette:

You're right. Bleach is about action and friendship. But it focusses little on romance. IchiRuki cannot thrive in an unromantic atmosphere. That's because they're the main characters, and most of there feelings are revealed. Many people like to hide this by describing that "their too nervous to explain their feelings." However, there is little evidence of a major feeling, and some of a minor feeling.

Besides, Sinta's analysis relies on one major thing: animes that are romantic. Naruto is an obvious exception. But the other ones are romantic. But in romantic stories the girl usually hides her feelings with a laugh. Orihime and Rukia don't do that. That's why I think some of the analysis doesn't work.

Bleach would have had more evidence of a romantic relationship between the main characters then even between Ichigo and Orihime if it existed. Now, you come up with all of the times Ichigo looked at Rukia. I can also do that with Orihime. But the quantity will be diffetrent because Ichigo and Rukia are main characters.

Sorry for going on a tangent there, back to your question. Well, Ishida had no obvious feelings for Orihime. If he did and an author wanted to prove it, Ishida would have told his feelings to Ichigo as they are close friends. So we don't even klnow if he has unrequited feelings. And if there was no confession then, I doubt there would be now. Confession time is over for every pairing except IchiRuki and HitsuHina or those that have some basis. IshiHime is fragile because it rests on the concept Ishida has unrequited love for Orihime. And I simply don't see those feelings.

Where as Inoue's feelings are so open anybody notices.

There are just too many crosses Kubo has to go to make the jump. Frankly, Kubo is not a very good writer so I doubt he could even do it, much less have the drive.

I'll get to Illenka later, because I have to prepare for a meeting.

Marionette

03-25-2008, 05:01 PM

@Sinta

I still love your analysis, for what it's worth ;) even if I'm not as eager as before to discuss why because I feel like I'm repeating myself. But about the guy/girl thing in fandom, I think someone on NF did a poll for IchiRuki and IchiOri with guys and girls separated, and the result was pretty much even. I also get Ileenka's point about it's really hard to generalize IchiRuki fans in particular, because the fandom is so large and diverse.

@earthforge

I'll get back to you later.

Starwing

03-25-2008, 05:07 PM

@Earthforge

lol, I totally agree with you on the balance part. It's insane but I do *secretly and guiltily* ship RenTatsuki, simply because I appreciate that balance. IchiRuki, IshiHime and RenTatsuki... yup, yup. Though logically, if IchiRuki does become cannon, Renji would simply be a case of unrequited love as well.

Ah... I guess the core difference between us is that you're far nicer. Your heart aches for Orihime, but the only thought I had was really, "grow up, I liked you better before." It may sound really callous, but I think you've connected with Orihime on a level that I couldn't. I connected with Rukia a lot more.

Hm... I think Kubo has created a load of inherently flawed characters. If you read Jasse's essay in the New Ishida Uryuu FC, maybe you'll be convinced like I have been that Uryuu's greatest flaw is a form of cowardice.

For me, Ichigo's is his lack of trust in his companions' powers, Chad's is his lack of goal (I mean, what is he after, really?), Renji's is also a form of cowardice and self depreciation, Rukia's is the whole isolationist thing.

If Orihime had an inherent flaw, it is her reliance on people and I feel that hasn't been healed. She relied on Sora, on Tatsuki and then on Ichigo. I believe in her love, that it's pure and rather beautiful. But I think Kubo will fix each and every one of his main character's flaws, including Orihime's. So that Orihime's happy-go-lucky nature may not be a mask (after all, she showed signs of that even in HM, where she has nothing to prove or pretend), no matter what the resulting pairing.

If IchiHime does happen I'd still want her to be that person she was in SS and pre-SS. If you say that most IshiHime fanfics want her to return to that optimistic, silly person (and that's what I'd want ^^')... Can I ask you what IchiHime fanfics do? I honestly haven't read that many... only one, truth be told, and that was pre-HM (Hime was silly there). So how do you think IchiHime dynamics would work? What would the real Orihime, without masks, act like?

Ouch, hope you're feeling better with your cold. Eeks, hopefully I didn't contribute to making this a pairing debate... :><:

@Sinta,

I think the answer to why IchiRuki has more female shippers than male shippers is pretty obvious. And I know you know it too. ^^'

There's a lot to admire in Rukia's personality for female readers, especially modern girls (though I'm generalizing). And the demography for Bleach IS still young female readers. The whole feminist attitude probably plays a big part.

And when you get right down to it, besides many of the people who like a ship for their interactions and relationships, the other portion of shippers may be motivated by the route cause you've mentioned several times in your essays. We 'like' them. Maybe not because we relate to them exactly, but we certainly see in them traits to admire or that endears them to us.

><... sorry, I always meant to respond to your posts properly but could never find the time. I promise I will one of these days. :P

Annie

03-26-2008, 05:30 AM

Sorry, I don't know how to sugarcoat words and I won't bother.

Eartforge: this is the reason why I said you don't read manga. You are NOT stating facts but your own conclusion which has no base at all.

You said Rukia is 'probably' afraid of Ichigo and so other of his friends. This is wrong because there has been no indication that Rukia feared him nor has Renji or Ishida.

It's all from your opinion which only wanted to singled out Orihime's fear.

Reaction of a good slibling? Don't try to push other relationship into sibling catagory just because you wanted it to be. This is not a pairing debate thread. So I'm not gonna bother with your effort to try to lower IchiRuki relationship into sibling file while promote IchiOri as romantic soul-mate sort of love relationship. They're connected, just like how Ichigo is connected to Nel or Ganjuu or a random soul. It's not black/white relationship that if you don't love her=/= no reaction at all.

But let me say, your arguments don't need me to argue about them. You know pretty well that majority of people will not agree with how you view relationships in Bleach.

earthforge

03-26-2008, 07:38 AM

Annie:
Look, no need open anger fronts.. I have no intention of turning this into another pairing debate. I was simply initially asked why I liked the pairing to begin with and I gave the basic outline.

And I apoligize if I didn't explain some of my logic but I do not spend much time proofreading these because I have other things that require much more of my attention. It is why I pushed off answering partially. And I'm sorry if I inadvertantly offended you with my side-comment and understand your anger. I would get annoyed at someone saying Orihime is Ichigo's sister.

Now, I mentioned that his friends would be afraid as in slightly unnerved. I am sorry I did not clarify that. If you're best friend suddenly started using a foreign/weird power, you would definitely feel unnerved. And Rukia would feel that definitely because she is a shinigami. She knows what hollows are like. But she tries to lie to Ichigo and say it is fine.

However, Orihime cannot lie to Ichigo. I think that was the point of those chapters. It was to demonstrate how deeply affected Orihime was by Ichigo's change and showed how deeply Ichigo was affected by Orihime rejecting him. Rukia didn't have that connection. That's because her connection with Ichigo is totally different.

Do not take that in a negative way. But Orihime being strongly affected is good proof of a deep bond that runs between Ichigo and Orihime. In Ichigo and Orihime's relationship, there are no room for deceit. But in Ichigo and Rukia's there is plenty of room. That's because they understand how each other works and would feel. If one acted suddenly different, the other wouldn't suspect it till later. That is why Ichigo couldn't sense much with Rukia before she left and got taken to soul society.

That always occured to me how siblings worked, so that is why I said that. So please do not get worked up ;^^.

Starwing:

Unfortunately yes. And I do know that the third ship could be possible if Kubo drastically turned around the story. And it is also less hard on Orihime. RenTatsu is a really nice pairing, but I doubt it's canon.

I am not surprised, as I have read that as the opinions of many shippers of IshiHime. That is why the vast number of IchiRuki supporters as well. I only connect to Orihime in hair, grades, and slightly in childhood. But I actually had your opinion before I started to examine the characters a bit more (if you don't believe me, I commented on Teccan's FF which was IchiRuki and I said "I liked how you portrayed Orihime" when she lost faith in her love.)

Many people try to put it in perspective using normal life to justify their opinions. But Orihime really is just a characture like the rest odf the cast. Besides, the anime is a total fantasy. So elements of reality are lost and things are taken to extremes. And I realized that this applied to Bleach in such a way where if Orihime is shown to have a deep love/obsession, she would die for it.

Now that changes the style of Bleach from a fantasy/friendship story to more of a tragic story. And you may say it is a great plot change but as a writer/poet, I find it rather dumb. If you have a relationship like this, it becomes do or die. And that's why you can't connect it to reality.

I agree with you on all the flaws except Orihime's. You could also say Tatsuki has the same thing. But I think that her character is lacking not in integrity but in strength. She lacks the control and precision over her powers because of lack of training/useful help. You coul;d say this connects to her mental help, but I just think that she is like that because there isn't anybody to help guide her except potentially Hachi.

I think Orihime would act a bit more mature but still optimistic. At least at the end of the war it's what I expect. That would follow the down to cliche pattern of what war does to people. I liked the Orihime from before but she acted that way mainly because she was still maturing and to be interesting. I just don't think that her character will come back as a happy go lucky person. If there's a war, what is the logical course for Orihime's character? To be more mature.

As much as we all liked the old Orihime, I'm not sure she'll come back.

I enjoy hearing from all of you. And it doesn't seem as much of debate as consructive criticism.

Illenka (God, I hope I can keep responding)

That was in my prior question to Sinta, and maybe I'll respond to you in a PM later. It's just I don't see SS treating Ichigo with enough respect to go and let them marry one of their own. Besides, it kinda makes for a boring after-marraige. No offense, please.

LOL, so true. So true.

Some of the time, but it is inevitable in mangas with this set-up that the leader will be jerky "for the good of the many."

Course. This is the right thread, isn't it?

You can look at what I said to Starwing. Real-life examples don't work because Bleach is a fantasy where extremes tend to happen. An I only mentioned the best case scenario with Orihime. The worst case is that she kills herself. The nice thing about IchiRuki is that it conveys a sense of reality and also details romantic morals. But Bleach is not about that now and I doubt it will turn that way. In the way debbie-chan looks at it, it turns Bleach into a shoujo (at which my brother would scream at the news of, but that's beside the point.) Bleach is just not about romance. It is about friendship and fighting.

Now, as a writer this is what I think. A romance novel with the romance first/second can talk about these morals. In fact, a love triangle is typically constructed. But in other novels where action is primary the romance becomes a background issue, and is generally simplified to a love at first sight thing. Otherwise the story gets too confusing.

That's because Orihime's character is in conflict even in the omakes. Her happiness is a cover for whatever her feelings are. If that was all she was, honestly, I don't think she could get high grades or maintain such a long relationship with Ichigo (starting to make typos, I apoligize if there are any more.)

You forgot that afterwards she felt Ichigo's reiatsu go. Then the arrancar girls came in. Though that is speculation I'll admit.

You say that like it is so easy and are talking like Bleach is a romance novel or real life. Orihime's character advanced from level 1 when she said that she was sorry she couldn't help Ichigo in ep 59. That is because she wasn't happy-go-lucky, but acting a bit more mature. She was still emotionally upset. But I'd say the major revelation that her character had more depth was at Ichigo's bed, confessing. Compare that to when she was introduced in the manga. The obsession/love was the same, but how she acted about it was totally different. I'd say that was her immature reaction versus her more mature reaction.

To say that her character is level one simply because of Ichigo is to ignore all other factors that contribute to a character's development.

Again, you are bringing up real examples. And I can't answer because I have never felt love and probably won't for a good 3-5 years. The woes of an advanced student. rolleyes:

It's funny you mention that, after I have seen so many sigs fronm your FC with looks between Ichigo and Rukia labelled as "passionate." But I think that the look Ichigo gave was a rather honest indicator of a relationship. Why else would it be on the last page? Why else would his eyes have the white shine usually not seen while he is in his hollow form? The scene was written for emotional benefit. That benefit was to show the bond between Ichigo and Orihime. All the scenes that you mention are looks written for comedy relief or advancement of the plot. Especially that look between Ichigo and Rukia on chapter 213.

Besides, if the scene was for actual plot advancement the frames would be much more minimalist in style. It is clear that Kubo was trying to emphasize that scene.

Yes, that is why I like their relationship. And BTW, I disagree that Ichigo was trying to hide his hollow form from Rukia. Rukia saw it and commented that it was an unusual power. I really don't think it mattered much to Ichigo her view as long as it wasn't a big fear. But I'm sure they knew what each other was thinking and doing. This handicaps their relationship, however, as I mentioned to Starwing earlier.

Well, as a fan of Ichigo when he is not a wimp and also vaizard Ichigo, the chapter hit my home plate. I must admit it was part of my bias in examining the chapter closer. And Ichigo was actually protecting in his relationship. I rather like that. As a gothic novel/cheap romance lover, I buy off on things like that.

Dorian Grey:

To finish off, a little connection. If Ichigo refuses Orihime, it would portray him like Dorian Grey in Wilde's A Picture Of Dorian Grey. Orihime is much like Sybil Vane. But then Dorian refuses her by saying she disappoints him. A day later, Sybil kills herself. That just seems the way IchiRuki will work out in dealing with Hime.

I am not posting for another week if I can help it. I have tons of homework.

debbiechan

03-26-2008, 04:08 PM

Well, Ishida had no obvious feelings for Orihime. If he did and an author wanted to prove it, Ishida would have told his feelings to Ichigo as they are close friends. So we don't even klnow if he has unrequited feelings.

I've tried to stay out of this, but I just have to remark on this statement. It strikes me as particularly discounting of Kubo Tite to say that he has to make his readers know of one characters feelings for another only by spoken words--Kubo sensei is an artist and manga is a visual media.

Second, Ishida confessing his love for Orihime to Ichigo? What? Who do you think Ishida is? I doubt Ishida would even confess feelings like that to himself, no matter what readers may have been lead to believe he feels about Orihime.
This is the boy who is prideful and wouldn't even tell Ichigo about the loss of his Quincy powers. Can you imagine him saying "Oh Kurosaki, I really like this girl...." He and Ichigo do not have that sort of relationship.

The worst scenario which she could probably do would be to suicide.
I consider the feelings of Orihime over Ishida because who is more fragile?

So Orihime would kill herself if Ichigo spurned her? I find this EXTREMELY discounting of Orihime's character and what Kubo-sensei has shown us of her so far. This is a strong girl. This is a girl who has weathered child abuse, the loss of her parents, her brother, school bullying, monsters, being kidnapped by spirits with holes in their necks and who knows what all, and she's been consistently insightful throughout the manga about people and their feelings--sometimes daffy but occasionally given to insights beyond her years.

She is going to kill herself over a boy?

Orihime is more fragile than Ishida? Males and females express their fragility in different ways; Ishida and other members of the young leads in Bleach have sufferered as much as Orihime. Because Orihime is emotional, female and given to crying instead of hitting things (like Ichigo) to express her distress, we may think she is more fragile. I don't think she is. She just expresses herself differently. She may be stronger than all of them. Give her time. I do not see the possibility of Ichigo's spurning Orihime as resulting in SUICIDE--after all, he hasn't paid her the attention she's wanted for over 300 chapters now, and while she's wept about it, she certainly hasn't walked into any ceros.

Starwing

03-26-2008, 04:35 PM

@Earthforge,

Hm... I disagree that there's no room for deception in the IchiHime relationship. Ichigo still doesn't know how Orihime feels, after all, and that's a deception in itself. But I do agree with you that IchiRuki have similar deceptions; not just to each other but to everyone, I think... hm...

Ah, bah, ignore that, I'm sorry that it borders on pairing debates... ^^'

@Everyone...
I too, am a writer (published and launched in May, squee! *goes to the corner to hyperventilate*) and there's a single rule that most (not all) writers follow.

The author cannot afford to pity his/her characters. In my workshopping group, the prof was talking about a story he'd once read: "A boy going to play baseball and his father didn't show up to watch. The boy then hits a home run." The prof immediately said that wouldn't do, the boy has to hit a pathetic miss and the ball rolls forward on the field.

Essentially, when your character is trapped in a tree by an angry dog, has his/her hands cut up and it starts raining and the crows are perched waiting for a carcass, that's when you have to throw rocks at the character. Yes, as a writer, we can't try to imitate real life, we have to exaggerate, heighten the tension.

A tragic character would lose a lot of its power if the author gave him/her a perfectly happy ending. And I think Orihime and Renji are both, in their own ways, tragic characters. Personally, as an author, I'd leave Orihime alone at the end of the series, and give Rukia to Renji - for the most catharsis and a balance between tragedy and comedy. Why not IchigoxOrihime? Because Orihime's set-up is far better as a tragic conflict.

Of course, that goes against what I actually want from the series, IchiRuki, IshiHime and stuff. ^^' And I don't actually think that's what Kubo would do. Why? Because like Sinta said, we have to consider the genre and the audience.

In Eureka 7, Domonique and Anemone have a near-perfect set-up for a tragic ending. (I honestly thought Anemone liked Dewey throughout the series) But considering the genre, they end up with a perfectly happy ending. It leaves a warm, fuzzy feeling, but the pairing loses much of its power.

In P. Pullman's His Dark Materials, the last book the Amber Spyglass (same series as Golden Compass/Northern Lights): Lyra and Will have a good set up for tragedy but also for comedy. Pullman separates them in the end with a semi-tragedy. I was properly traumatized. And in an interview he says: "I had to do it. If I didn't, the story wouldn't have a fraction of its power." <--and that's precisely it. Even though HDM is a children's series, there is a maturity in this plot development despite the audience. And it makes the story a hundred times stronger.

So which kind of author is Kubo? I think the biggest question is: does he care about the happiness of his readers? I don't know the answer to that question, though if I had to guess, I'd say yes, he does. Hm... no... I take that back... I think Kubo is as much his own fan-boy as his readers. ^^' There's a great amount of love that shows through his treatment of his characters, despite him following the 'torture those we love' rule.

To look at this story from a commercial extent, Kubo will make the majority of his readers happy with the outcome of IchiRuki, at the expense of some (or most) of his characters. If you think of the characters as real people, Ichigo and Rukia would hardly be happy if their happiness is built on Orihime and/or Renji's grief.

To be honest, I hadn't actually thought of Ichigo and Rukia's development as typical until Sinta suggested it fits into a pattern. I'm still a bit skeptical of this, but I find myself nodding at everything else in his essays.

And I think the reason I dídn't find the development typical is that if Kubo intended to develop IchiRuki all along (as I believe he did), then he is extraordinarily slow. As Sinta suggested, there are no typical blushing, touching or anything else that makes romance obvious. That's why there's always the doubt.

This lack of physical intimacy is what caused the resulting conflict in readers, I think. Some people can't see IchiRuki as anything but a couple and some can only see them as platonic, because isn't it inevitable that if they like each other, there'd be blushing and touching?

And considering the audience and the genre, I think yes, if Kubo wanted the relationships clear, he could've dropped a lot more. But then, if Ichigo/Rukia had an established foundation, Orihime's dilemma would've been pitiful instead of empathetic, which I don't think is what Kubo wanted.

Overall, I think the driving force for IchiRuki is composed of: the set-up, their popu