Sex before marriage

[mitzibe]

Agree, disagree, undecided? I vote no sex before marriage because it's my choice to be Mister Pure until my wedding night. I prefer to stay chaste for my future pumpkin.

[Orlando]

Sure, why not?

I'm all for it and luckily so are lots of people i meet.

;)

[Mei]

I think it´s even necessary! =D

You don´t wanna buy a pig in a poke, do you...?!
It´s an important part of a healthy relationship, so I dunno why one
should wait for so long.

[tari101190]

i respect guys who would think they should wait...nothin wrong with that at all...

if i had to tell chose i would say hav sex if you want, if you wanna do it any random person then fine...its ur life...

i personally dnt like the idea of 'casual sex' or wateva its called...

although if your in a relationship with sum1 you think u could have a future with then you can do it as much as u want, married or not...

i dnt even like the idea of marriage honestly...not that much atleast.

[Akutabi]

Too late for me. Though I will say I was close and still am close with my partners (well, as close as one can be with a girl living across the country now :cry),still dating one in fact. So it's not like I randomly picked up someone.

As long as both parties are willing at the time, I don't see a problem.

Hell, my family is friends with a couple who have been living together like a married couple for nearly 20 years but they've yet to actually tie the knot. "What is marriage these days but a few extra benefits?" they ask.

[Escobar]

sure why not

cavemen weren't getting married were they?

[stark espada]

My saying has always been When you or ready I am ready(yes people have asked me that so I told them) That is all I really have to say about that and its your life if you want to have sex before marrige have it you dont then do not I am not here to judge you.

[Sidonzo]

It's up to the individual whether they want to wait or not. I would never presume to make that decision for another human being. As for myself I didn't wait til I was married, but I married the person I was with and he is the only person I have been with, so it turned out just like if I had waited til I was married. Of course I got married at eighteen too, so there wasn't much of a chance to experiment before I got married. ;)

~Sid

[Rain]

I voted undecided.

Personally i don't think there is anything wrong with sex before marriage (I don't even really care about marriage), but I don't think sex should be something that you do just because you can.

My opinion is that if you are willing to marry/spend your life with that person then sex is fine, but if not then you shouldn't

[Lady Orihime]

My views have changed on this since I was a teen, but anyway...

I voted for the invisible "other" option.

As long as the two parties involved are in love, I think that's acceptable. Like Rain said, if you are willing to spend your life with/marry that person then more power to you!

Which is why I don't believe in 'having sex', but 'making love'.

[HaNa]

I'm against relationships from the start..or else what marriage exists for -_- so i voted it's not okay

[speedphantom]

I think its up to the couple. I don't see anything wrong with it. I mean why is there this notion that you must be a virgin until married? Where'd this come from?

[Akutabi]

I think its up to the couple. I don't see anything wrong with it. I mean why is there this notion that you must be a virgin until married? Where'd this come from?

Well way back when (and in many places today), it was every man's worst nightmare that the child inheriting everything from him was another man's. And for the longest time there were no blood tests to confirm it.

The best way to guarantee that would not happen was to keep the woman a virgin until married and then keep close tabs to prevent any flings. Plus, it's a pride issue for many guys at being a woman's first time.

[Lady Orihime]

It also stems from the Bible, and what Scripture says.

[Akutabi]

It also stems from the Bible, and what Scripture says.

Which most likely also stems from what I just mentioned.

[Lady Orihime]

That's possible. But a woman's decision to not fornicate can be very different than a man's.

But nowadays, people can get the proper doucmentation to prove whether or not the child belongs to a certain man, etc.; but what Scripture says regarding pre-martial sex, and has said, will probably never change...and therefore, will remain a pouplar reason to not fornicate.

Also lowers the risk of STD's, which is the biggest reason people are choosing to be abstinent these days.

[manfan]

Agree, disagree, undecided? I vote no sex before marriage because it's my choice to be Mister Pure until my wedding night. I prefer to stay chaste for my future pumpkin.

I can't believe you actually said that.....you of all the person, your posts are so typically humiliating, yet.....you support purity in marriage.:eek:

I can so say that I have not seen the world yet.
Well way back when (and in many places today), it was every man's worst nightmare that the child inheriting everything from him was another man's. And for the longest time there were no blood tests to confirm it.

The best way to guarantee that would not happen was to keep the woman a virgin until married and then keep close tabs to prevent any flings. Plus, it's a pride issue for many guys at being a woman's first time.
So very true....but it's more for the bolded one. They say woman is like a flower......one who deflowers her, especially in the morning sun......is really a lucky man or a bastard.......that's why in the early days, they promote early marriage.

[Ileenka]

I can't believe you actually said that.....you of all the person, your posts are so typically humiliating, yet.....you support purity in marriage.

:eek: You and mitzibe are so alike!!

[EternalDream]

I voted no. Sex isn't just a gratifying bodily act, it's a pure, loving covenant between two mates^_^ It says in the Bible that "two will become one flesh" in Adam and Eve's story, which to me (according to what I was taught) implies that sex IS marriage. I only agree with sex before marriage if the two partners agree that they're getting married in the eyes of God. After all, no priest or pastor married Adam and Eve, right? They just had sex and were married. XD

Additionally, none of my friends' relationships that involve sex have lasted or been all that great, so I think I'll be one of the few different ones and see how my side turns out.^^

[manfan]

:eek: You and mitzibe are so alike!!

I do take it as complement.....why thank you....to be equated as someone like mitzibe is really a complement....he acts like a gentleman, knowing when to stop and give in to people who viciously insults him for petty reasons....for the sake of everyone's sanity sake. Totally opposite the person we know and love to loath. ^___^

[FireCandy]

It´s an important part of a healthy relationship, so I dunno why one
should wait for so long.
No sex = no healthy relationship? :rofl

I think that 'having sex' or 'making love' is a very personal thing. Some people just want to have fun while the others want to wait for the only one. It's up to them to decide.

[Mei]

No sex = no healthy relationship? :rofl

I think that 'having sex' or 'making love' is a very personal thing. Some people just want to have fun while the others want to wait for the only one. It's up to them to decide.


Eeeh, I think you misunderstood me, FC. I said it´s an important part of a relationship, for some more, for others less, it´s always up to ppl to decide for themselves of course. I didn´t write that there can´t be healthy relationships without sex, I´m against generalizations (I just enthusiastically spoke for myself). You misunderstood me and jumped to conclusions.

[FireCandy]

Eeeh, I think you misunderstood me, FC. I said it´s an important part of a relationship, for some more, for others less, it´s always up to ppl to decide for themselves of course. I didn´t write that there can´t be healthy relationships without sex, I´m against generalizations (I just enthusiastically spoke for myself). You misunderstood me and jumped to conclusions.

I did't say it's not important part of relationship. :lmao All I have said before is just that some people want to do it after marriage while some don’t want to wait that much.

And yes I understood that you think there can’t be a healthy relationships without sex because of the whole post you wrote. Guess I was wrong. :laugh

[Starwing]

Well, wasn't there a study a few years ago that said the number one cause of divorce is money issues and the second is the sex?

If you wait until after you say your vows and then find out that you absolutely hate it, or disagree on so many things about the issue, that's not good at all.

I think it's absolutely necessary. That's not the same as being loose or whatever, but if you're going to spend the rest of your life with someone anyway, why ever not? Marriage in itself is just a confirmation and a ceremony, IMHO. It has no bearings on how much you love the other person.

And there's nothing wrong with having sex for fun either, that part of it is personal choice.

But I do believe it is wise to have sex before marriage. I'd hate to spend all that money and then get a divorce afterwards because I dislike it or something.

[anathema]

Well, wasn't there a study a few years ago that said the number one cause of divorce is money issues and the second is the sex?
Not really the topic at hand, but in studies I've read (at the local library), most studies show that divorces have become more rampant because women, generally the side of the relationship more inclined to hold it together, have become less dependent on their husbands what with more opportunities for women to create their own income. With such independence, fear of being unable to live by oneself, or with ones children, become less of a problem. So if a crisis arises between couples, instead of toughing it out due to the lack of resources, the women have the very viable option of severing the marriage.

I do admit that this could be a cultural thing, though. I don't quite recall the demography of the study.

That said, I'm more inclined to the "No Sex"-camp, if only because there are so many things to consider when entertaining a relationship like marriage. Love alone can't sustain this relationship, so it seems to me that if a relationship is so fragile as to be destroyed by unsatisfying sex, then it's the couples' error in thinking they could sustain a marriage in the first place. And passion so very easily burns itself out, anyway. In three years, the burning passion of couples turns more into companionship, which is why I don't regard sex as that big a qualifier. I do understand curiosity, though.

[Kristen]

Um. I said it was okay to have sex before the wedding bells... As long you know you love the person. I don't agree about having sex just for 'fun' with different people, though.

[Lady Orihime]

If anyone is having sex "just for fun", I strongly advise you STOP until your partner(s) and yourself to get tested for HIV/AIDS and STD's 0.o

And don't want to sound preachy, but I found this hilarious:

"If I go into a grocery store and want to choose a good apple I can pick it up and I can look at it. I would be pretty upset if the person in front of me starting taking bites out of apples and putting them back in order to see if they taste good." - David MacDonald

It's funny, because it's true.

[manfan]

No sex = no healthy relationship? :rofl

I think that 'having sex' or 'making love' is a very personal thing. Some people just want to have fun while the others want to wait for the only one. It's up to them to decide.

Personally, I'm totally against the idea of making love / having sex before marriage.......it's just very bad, .....the girl especially should be ashamed if she consents and gives in to the 'man she loves'(this is what we call woman passivism, lack of back-bone, saying yes to the man who lovingly demands her).....the male, if he really loves her, should wait until he is able to impregnates seed into her......this kind of manipulative relationship reminds me of AizenxHinamori;).

Sex, fundamental to a healthy relationship.....I say sex before marriage just destroy lives especially the girls. It just plunge down the female's confidence level, once she lost her virginity to her boyfriend.....he can at anytime dumps her with a 'nothing to do with her' excuse, then she obsessively clings on to him like leeches, because she gave him her all.

And males, if the man really loves you so much, he wouldn't be requesting / demanding his way on you......I find it more gratifying if he doesn't give in to sex to any other Mary, Helen or Sally......that just makes love(or sex) worth waiting for to be consumated.

Really.....if a man were to ask you to make love with him before marriage, then dump him.....it's more of him wanting to show his stag prowessness to others.

And if you really want to make love with him, before marriage.....be prepared to face the aftermath sex's consequences. Don't use condoms....it just doesn't feel naturally good.....you making love but not making babies:rolleyes:

[Akutabi]

And if you really want to make love with him, before marriage.....be prepared to face the aftermath sex's consequences. Don't use condoms....it just doesn't feel naturally good.....you making love but not making babies:rolleyes:

Yes, that's what withdrawing is for :uhuh

Of course in my situation, the girlfriend made the first move so what's a guy to do? Though I certainly wouldn't say they ruined the relationships. Granted, one of them was going to end anyway due to outside circumstances (probably would have actually waited until marriage had that not happened, though neither of us have any regrets)

There are plenty of couples out there who haven't tied the note but have, non the less, been in a healthy relationship and yes, even have sex. I already mentioned one that's lasted 20 years. And yes, they've taken flake for not seeing why it's such a big deal that they haven't married yet.

I love the irony when they're lectured by people who have been divorced. :rolleyes:

[manfan]

Perhaps, possibly they think themselves are older and don't want the same thing to happen to you >.>

Some women and men(yes, I write it down as some and men included) do feel that sex is the excellent way to control their partners. Don't know about you and your gf Akutabi......but from where I come from.....the tv and anime drama series that I see.....have people chasing and trying to kill the 'bad woman/witch' for stealing their guy and bearing his son.

The way I see it that sex before(or outside) marriage is bound to enslave people and make people unhappy......it is sex inside the marriage, that man are allowed to be happy.:D

There could be people who do it, just to defy the society and moral system.....they say it's love but really they do it to piss off their parents and (girl/boy)friends.:p

[Ileenka]

I do take it as complement.....why thank you....to be equated as someone like mitzibe is really a complement....he acts like a gentleman, knowing when to stop and give in to people who viciously insults him for petty reasons....for the sake of everyone's sanity sake. Totally opposite the person we know and love to loath. ^___^

I'd rather have your hate than to have your love. :D

If anyone is having sex "just for fun", I strongly advise you STOP until your partner(s) and yourself to get tested for HIV/AIDS and STD's 0.o

I'm pretty sure we are talking about having sex with people we love and know very well, but 'before marriage'. And taking that into account, some point along the relationship we would know their past/present medical conditions. If people crawl for pubs to score for sex and if they get STDs, serve them right.


And don't want to sound preachy, but I found this hilarious:

"If I go into a grocery store and want to choose a good apple I can pick it up and I can look at it. I would be pretty upset if the person in front of me starting taking bites out of apples and putting them back in order to see if they taste good." - David MacDonald

It's funny, because it's true.

Yeah but people aren't really like apples because apples can't say, "NO! DON'T EAT ME!"

:D

Of course in my situation, the girlfriend made the first move so what's a guy to do?

That is a very common occurrence these days.

[Orihime]

Well, I'M going to wait (heck, I'm not even dating yet), but it's not my business if somebody else does it.

[Tomodachi69]

thread = tl;dr (maybe later)

Anyway, I think it's fine. I've had sex already, anyway, and I'm only 17. We both wanted it, we'd been steady for a year and half, we talked about it, were very cautious (as much as teens can be, anyway), and we have no regrets. If sex is something that both parties are comfy with, I say, go for it.

I don't, however, condone casual sex. That's basically just using people to fulfill your sexual desires, and only that. Even if both of you are just doing it for the sake of it, I don't approve. Sex is better when it's intimate, anyway.

[EternalDream]

manfan, I see where you're coming from, and I agree with it to an extent, but there are a lot of people who aren't the kind of people you've described (ie: manipulative, controlling, etc).

Um. I said it was okay to have sex before the wedding bells... As long you know you love the person.

Meh. True love waits. :love

Also, what about 11 and 12 year olds who use that argument? I'm pretty sure they have no idea wtf they're talking about when they claim "but we love each other..."


Of course in my situation, the girlfriend made the first move so what's a guy to do?

Um...say "no"??? XD Strange thought, eh?

[Lady Orihime]

I'm pretty sure we are talking about having sex with people we love and know very well, but 'before marriage'. And taking that into account, some point along the relationship we would know their past/present medical conditions. If people crawl for pubs to score for sex and if they get STDs, serve them right.

Yeah but people aren't really like apples because apples can't say, "NO! DON'T EAT ME!"


Starwing said "And there's nothing wrong with having sex for fun either". I was just giving some advice to those who do have sex "just for fun" and don't think about the consequences involved with that.

And there's also the chance you might end up on one of Maury's "I slept with 50 guys! You might not be the father!" episodes XD

Then what about the old saying's "No one will buy the ice-cream truck if you’re giving the popsicles out for free" or "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" :rotflmao

[Unicorn]

I voted "It's not okay". Guess it's due to my culture, upbringing, and the friends I associate with.

Personally, I'd wait. I would hope that the guy waits too. If the other party wants to 'try before they buy', they can get out and try their luck somewhere else.

I am also very cynical creature. Seriously, if he / she was 'shopping around' before we met, what would stop him / her from continuing to 'shop around'?


However, I am realistic. People are sleeping together at younger and younger ages. Divorce rates are rising. Perhaps (am just guessing here) it really is a symptom of "try before you buy" and the crushing demoralisation of being told "pfft, my 9th partner was better than you. Gawd you're pathetic" on your wedding night.

[Ileenka]

Starwing said "And there's nothing wrong with having sex for fun either". I was just giving some advice to those who do have sex "just for fun" and don't think about the consequences involved with that.

And there's also the chance you might end up on one of Maury's "I slept with 50 guys! You might not be the father!" episodes XD

Then what about the old saying's "No one will buy the ice-cream truck if you’re giving the popsicles out for free" or "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" :rotflmao

Nothing wrong with giving advice. I was just being chatty, sorry. I think "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" or "No one will buy the ice-cream truck if you're giving the popsicles out for free" could ring some truth in it, however I think everything has its consequence as well and that includes the issue we're talking about. That's simply because, 'nothing is free' in this world applies. :D

And as I said, people should be prepared to face the consequences if they wanted to do it. That's the pre-awareness they should be armed with. I just don't think I have the right to give advice whether it's okay or not okay. Personally, I'd wait. But who knows what will happen in future, really. :)

[Akutabi]

Um...say "no"??? XD Strange thought, eh?

Why? The first time was with a girl I'd known since I was little and been dating for four years, only to move away clear across the country, most likely never to see each other again. One special night before that move seemed like a good idea and neither of us have regretted it. And we still keep in touch despite having both moved on.

And with my current partner, it was for our third anniversary. I saw no reason to say no.

[Unicorn]

And with my current partner, it was for our third anniversary. I saw no reason to say no.

Seems like you both put some mature thought into this. Are you both planning to get married / for the future? If and when a pregnancy results, I hope that you handle it with the same maturity.

[spacecat]

I think it just depends on the couple. I didn't wait but I don't regret it either. I would never expect someone to sleep with me if they did want to wait for marriage, I definitely wouldn't pressure them into it. I have no religion or true belief I will ever get married so it just never seemed like a big deal to me.

[Akutabi]

Seems like you both put some mature thought into this. Are you both planning to get married / for the future? If and when a pregnancy results, I hope that you handle it with the same maturity.

We haven't made any plans that big yet. I'd probably still be dating my first gf had she not moved. If circumstances allow for it, then I can see it happening. And we use protection or I practice withdrawing each time so babies are not a big worry. If an accident happens, I'm willing to take responsibility if she feels we can properly take care of it.

[manfan]

Why? The first time was with a girl I'd known since I was little and been dating for four years, only to move away clear across the country, most likely never to see each other again. One special night before that move seemed like a good idea and neither of us have regretted it. And we still keep in touch despite having both moved on.

And with my current partner, it was for our third anniversary. I saw no reason to say no.

Sorry for picking on you, Akutabi....I'm just using you as an example....I'm not teaching you, just use you as an example. Taking a step further, I feel there need to be a marriage first before we can consumate the love, mainly to protect her.....it's not thes case that the girl is weak, but rather the society shun on such kind of girl who practice free sex....it is always the female that get the disapproving remarks & comments while the male gets scott free. And it's not just a one time affair that will haunt her, rather ....since her friends and neighbours know it, it's probably going to haunt her for the rest of her life. That's why I would advocate marriage first and then sex. And marriage would be a sure guarantee protection to protect your girl from any unwanted incidences (like third parties, etc)

You would never know her future, the kind of man she meets and wants to be with, one who is conservative, who thinks that her previous mistakes are the reasons for not having a good relationship.

But since she is the one who initiated first, she might as well be responsible for everything that happened to her.

There are many ways of strengthening, building the relationship....just not sex only.....there's ice-cream, yogurt, sunset, steamboats, travelling, hiking and shopping to be done together; to get to know your partner very well before choosing to go for marriage.

Of course, being a romanticts at heart, I would understand if suddenly you guys would go for it. When I mean 'suddenly' I meant the lust/love to want to be one with her ....was never there in your/her mind in the first place.


Don't want to post here anymore.;)

[Jasse]

Voted no....Many reasons and Religion does play a big part in my life.:)

[Who]

As long as its with a partner you really care about, I'm fine with it being before marriage.

[Akutabi]

You would never know her future, the kind of man she meets and wants to be with, one who is conservative, who thinks that her previous mistakes are the reasons for not having a good relationship.

I don't pretend to know what will happen, but all indication so far show the opposite, as she has yet to show any interest in such a man, and would most likely not feel any regret in breaking up with him if he resorts to that.

she's been in two relationships since me, the first one ended because he cheated on her and she is still seeing the second guy.

But since she is the one who initiated first, she might as well be responsible for everything that happened to her.

Which is nothing so far, as her current boyfriend isn't a virgin either. And most of her friends don't see as scandalously as you do.


There are many ways of strengthening, building the relationship....just not sex only.....there's ice-cream, yogurt, sunset, steamboats, travelling, hiking and shopping to be done together; to get to know your partner very well before choosing to go for marriage.

We'd been friends since we were 5, started going out at around age 13, and broke up at age 17. Plenty of time for all that. If anything, sex was the grand finale to the relationship.

And my current relationship and I did a lot of that as well. Though some of the activities you listed have been "modified". And to be honest, at this point the two of us view it much like the things you listed.

Of course, being a romanticts at heart, I would understand if suddenly you guys would go for it. When I mean 'suddenly' I meant the lust/love to want to be one with her ....was never there in your/her mind in the first place.

Oh it was there. But there shouldn't be anything wrong with some lust as it is natural to feel it. I'd say it's okay to desire it but as long as it doesn't become the focal point then there should not be any problems.

Edit: With my sig, it's tough to tell if the green square I got from this thread is a good thing or is meant to be a neg rep. :p

[manfan]

Would you like me to neg rep you, or pos rep you? I normally don't neg rep people as much as I can, because it's usually the people I hate.....only one person I neg repped for the fun of it,....but our humorous bantering gets misunderstood and spread out among others like as if I am the bad guy.....amazing how that very said person claims he can read well and is doing Master in Litterature.:rolleyes:

Btw.....to be honest, I don't know whether to call this thing, this 'cohabitation' especially....not sex (I'm all out for sex, sex in marriage)....as something scandalous / not. I just don't know....it feels so strange & weird for me. But I wouldn't be the first person to point finger, criticize and judge....I try to understand, but at the end of the day......I'd prefer if I keep myself out of their private matters....as long as they know what they are doing, without regrets.

Maybe now the girls are doing it because the boys are doing also? Not to feel betrayed / left out?

[Guildenstern]

Meh, people have been doing it before what we know today as 'marriage' was even invented. As long as you use proper contraceptives, are informed about diseases and know how to protect yourself and don't act like an idiot about it, I say do whatever you want-- it's none of my business.

[EternalDream]

Why? The first time was with a girl I'd known since I was little and been dating for four years, only to move away clear across the country, most likely never to see each other again. One special night before that move seemed like a good idea and neither of us have regretted it. And we still keep in touch despite having both moved on.

And with my current partner, it was for our third anniversary. I saw no reason to say no.

I was being serious, but I was also teasing, since a guy saying "no thanks" seems so rare in today's society. XD (Hope I didn't offend you at all.)

I'm actually torn about your story now, since the hopeless romantic inside of me says "aww, that's so cute and sad ;_;" and the religious side says "sigh...well that was stupid" (even if you and your girl didn't think so). But I guess since what's done is done, the best thing is that both of you don't regret it. **shrug**

---

Personally (and this is just a general statement), the way Tomodachi69 went about his affairs is probably the best and most respectable route to go, if you're going to do it anyway.

[Sergelia]

As someone who can't see herself in a *marriage*, persay, I voted YES. I've never seen what the big deal on 'marriage' was in these discussions - for crying out loud, that institution was founded for economical reasons, love and sex have existed for a LONG time before that. I understand that for most people marriage has evolved into a form of a confirmation of love and loyalty, but still I can't see why a couple couldn't have a devoted relationship without having it certified on paper =__=.

Naturally, I'm against people jumping from one bed to another - but if you truly love each other and feel ready for it (and are also absolutely sure you WANT it), then why the hell not? Unless it's against your religious beliefs or the like, of course.

[Akutabi]

Would you like me to neg rep you, or pos rep you?

Neg rep please :uhuh

I understand that for most people marriage has evolved into a form of a confirmation of love and loyalty, but still I can't see why a couple couldn't have a devoted relationship without having it certified on paper

That exactly how the couple I mentioned think. It's just a few economic benefits that they don't think they need yet. So marriage for them would simply be the same life with a few extra financial things

[Avi]

It's all about personal choice, and one should not be pressured into giving into their partners desire. As in, not give in to having sex when they have already set their own moral of waiting until marriage. Once again, if they decide to change, it's their personal choice.

[Starwing]

This is from a while back when I said that there's nothing wrong with having sex for fun. I mean it in the same way as there's nothing wrong with sky-diving for fun. There are risks involved, but there are many many people who go about this carefully and have FUN with it.

Sex is a very enjoyable act, and I personally don't see why we shy away from it. The risks can be avoided, and the fun can be safe, without guilt and without love or marriage for some people. I'm not one of them, but hey, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all.

I think the problem is that some cultures put sex and marriage on these great pedestals. In many cultures in the world, nobody really cares. Marriage and sex has as much meaning as what we bring to it. It's not sacred to some people, and it's sacred to some.

Sex before marriage, after marriage, and sex for fun, are all personal choices, and none of them are wrong. But just like you'd caution sex for fun-ers for the risks of STDs and stuff, I think sex after marriage has some consequences as well.


Girls are not like apples. We don't become less than whole after losing our virginities. We are not worth less if we are not virgins, in fact we might be worth more because we're better at it. If it destroys our self respect or whatever, it's only because we let it. If we LET those men use us, then we really have no one to blame but ourselves.

And really, I don't know about the rest of you, but where I come from, it's really rare to find a couple that hasn't had sex before marriage. And considering the world wide average age for sex is 12, balancing all those 40 year old virgins with the other extreme, I don't think sex is that important of a thing. If you're careful with it, and you have faith in your own worth, there's no reason to avoid it at all.

[Spinel Sun]

Girls are not like apples. We don't become less than whole after losing our virginities.

I gotta agree with it! The man who's said this thing is just "RETARDED". So Men have every right to look for different tastes,eh? Nope it's NOT right?

Honestly, what's the big deal about having sex or not? What's wrong with doing that just for fun? And who are we do judge other's private lifes?

And let me tell you the big fact: The more you make something forbidden, the more it becomes tasty for the others. And making sex seem like a forbidden act, you may cause some bad results to happen! You may just make people perverts! Becouse by making sex untouchable, you're leading people into some strange acts! I don't wanna go into +18 results but to get rid off people's dirty minds, you should let natural things happen.

And in some societies (no, not SS :P), people see marriage as a permission for sex. What causes it? "Don't do anything before marriage." stuff. And it's making marriage cheaper, yet something strange that I cannot describe it.

And also it's healthier for you to know your partner before making the promise of your life to that person. o.O

[mitzibe]

I spy several chastity pumpkins.

anathema, EternalDream, FireCandy, HaNa, hemagoku, Jasse, kiri, manfan, mitzibe, Miyona, Orihime, Shannon, StarryInoueSky, Unicorn, v1nx

My lovely IchiHime Queen Lady Orihime! You have such beautiful quotes regarding purity...I love them....you don't support sex before marriage...but why do you select 'undecided'? :eek: Would a popsicle like you give me your whole truck?

I think "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" or "No one will buy the ice-cream truck if you're giving the popsicles out for free" could ring some truth in it, however I think everything has its consequence as well and that includes the issue we're talking about. That's simply because, 'nothing is free' in this world applies.

Voting is free, Ileenka. Why didn't you vote in my poll? I'm very interested in whether an apple like you would say no to a mouth like me. *wriggles eyebrows*

[Hiraeth]

I said it was okay, because like everything it's up to the individual. I'm not sure whether I personally would ever have sex before marriage, but it's not something I'm really concerned about at this point in my life.

[Lady Orihime]

My lovely IchiHime Queen Lady Orihime! You have such beautiful quotes regarding purity...I love them....you don't support sex before marriage...but why do you select 'undecided'? :eek: Would a popsicle like you give me your whole truck?

It's not that I don't support it. Some people who are in love CAN'T marry (homosexuals)...I just think that if you truly love the person, and have decided that this person is your soulmate, etc, then I think it's okay.

And the whole "what if you don't like how they are in bed?" really pisses me off. My cousin lost her virginity to a guy who she really cared for, and thought really cared for her, broke up with her a week later. BULL-F*CKING SHIT.

And practice makes perfect ;)

[Renegade Raine]

Well, obviously I voted yes, as I've been there, done that, and I'm not the type to angst too badly about stuff in the past. :p

But my somewhat intelligent opinion on the matter is that even if you get married, there's no sure way of telling that the person you married is the person you want to stay with for your entire life. You're probably pretty sure at the time, but once you live with them for a while, you might find that you really don't want to be with them for the rest of your life. Divorce rates are pretty high after all (in the US anyways).

So my point is that if you and your partner just have that itch that needs to be scratched, well...do it. Just as long as you're both okay with moving to the next level and you use protection. ;D

So bottom line, with my view as an agnostic, I really don't think it should matter whether or not you're wed by law to participate in an activity that all animals were built to do in some capacity.

[Mei]

It's not that I don't support it. Some people who are in love CAN'T marry (homosexuals)...I just think that if you truly love the person, and have decided that this person is your soulmate, etc, then I think it's okay.

And the whole "what if you don't like how they are in bed?" really pisses me off. My cousin lost her virginity to a guy who she really cared for, and thought really cared for her, broke up with her a week later. BULL-F*CKING SHIT.

And practice makes perfect ;)

........homosexuals can´t marry, they can´t marry............?! What....?!
Why can´t they marry..?! Hello? Would you please explain why they can´t marry,
if they love each other and want to marry. @__@
They go to the registry office and sign the necessary papers.

And why does the whole "what if you don't like how they are in bed?" piss you off....? If you marry and afterwards find out that the physical attraction isn´t the same and you feel depressed and it makes you feel uncomfortable.
I don´t want to say that sex is everything and without it there can´t be a good relationship, please don´t misunderstand me, but it´s a certain part of a love relationship (for some more, for others less, as I already said), so if you should find out that you don´t match, then....won´t that ruin your relationship?

[Ileenka]

And the whole "what if you don't like how they are in bed?" really pisses me off. My cousin lost her virginity to a guy who she really cared for, and thought really cared for her, broke up with her a week later. BULL-F*CKING SHIT.

Wow... that's really quite a reaction, Lady O. There's no need for such strong language around here.

Homosexuals can get married in certain states, in certain countries. If they can't get married in X place, they just need to get married in Y place. :D

I have never heard of a homosexual saving himself for marriage, but isn't it adorable if someone like that exists? Nyaa~ :inlove

[Lady Orihime]

........homosexuals can´t marry, they can´t marry............?! What....?!
Why can´t they marry..?! Hello? Would you please explain why they can´t marry,
if they love each other and want to marry. @__@
They go to the registry office and sign the necessary papers.

And why does the whole "what if you don't like how they are in bed?" piss you off....? If you marry and afterwards find out that the physical attraction isn´t the same and you feel depressed and it makes you feel uncomfortable.
I don´t want to say that sex is everything and without it there can´t be a good relationship, please don´t misunderstand me, but it´s a certain part of a love relationship (for some more, for others less, as I already said), so if you should find out that you don´t match, then....won´t that ruin your relationship?

I was addressing those who said that you should sleep with someone before marriage, and if you don't love them. I think it's shit that using "he/she wasn't good in bed, so I'm breaking up with them." to justify the break-up. What if you do love them, what if they are your soulmate, but the sex is bad...would you break up/divorce with them?

In most countries in the USA, homosexuals can't marry. "A marrige is a sacred union between a man and woman" is what Pres. Bush and leaders of the church say. Another reason why leaders of the church won't perform the rites is because of (again) what is in the bible:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them”(Leviticus 20:13)

[Ileenka]

In most countries in the USA, homosexuals can't marry.

I didn't know the USA has separate countries. :headscratch

[Guildenstern]

Is it just me or was this entire thread created for the sole purpose of mitzibe attempting to gauge which girls on the forum he'd be more likely to score with? '

Nobody likes a cyber Casanova. 'Chastity Pumpkins'? Really? You could have been more transparent, but only if you used power tools. I've been propositioned with better lines from gay men in full drag.

Thread has entered the 'autolose' stage. Abort, retry, fail. -_____-;;;;

Edit-- To those of you who responded to this thread seriously and with good ideas, bravo. It was very mature. :D

[Orlando]

Guild I think you won the prize there lol This is so he can suss out a wifey.

Lady Orihime, for someone with such a suggestive sig I wouldn't have guessed you were so against sbm :lmao

[FireCandy]

I didn't know the USA has separate countries. :headscratch
She meant states probably.
You learn something new everyday

@Orlando - If you would have known LadyO better… http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m57/darkdragonchild/heheelq7.png

[Starwing]

@Lady Orihime,

I respect your values and I rather admire them. But I must say your cousin was lucky. If her man was someone who would abandon her for bad sex or whatever, isn't that far better to find out before marriage?

If everyone could ignore bad sex or are patient enough to work through it, that's great and we'd have Eden. But realistically, most people aren't, and I can't say I'd be too tolerant, though I believe I'm an honorable person. Which is why I think we should be careful. Sex is a major part of married life and for many couples sharing a life together without marriage. Not knowing what your partner is like in bed is not knowing a major part of them. It doesn't mean you should abandon them if the sex is bad, but knowledge is power and in this case, the knowledge is often necessary.

What they're like in bed, or how they react to bad sex, is NOT something I want to find out after I say my vows or whatever. Even if you don't take marriage as sacred, it creates a whole load of legal hassle.


IMHO, purity in women is over-rated. Most men don't abide by chastity, and so why should we. If any man was to look at me when I'm no longer a virgin and decide I'm not worth as much, I would slap them and laugh. My worth is NOT determined by my sexual status. And I don't think my first time will be worth any more than any other time. I want each time I do it to be done in love, I want to enjoy them without baggage, and every single time wil be worth just as much as the first. Perhaps it should be worth more than each time, because love grows and changes with time.

I respect those who want to save themselves for one they love, and I personally wouldn't sleep around for fun either, but people have different values. And those who enjoy sex for it's most primal purposes, for enjoyment, for fun and for the thrill and the experience, if they're careful, who's to say they don't know exactly what they're doing, that they're not in the right?

[Unicorn]

@Lady Orihime,

I respect your values and I rather admire them. But I must say your cousin was lucky. If her man was someone who would abandon her for bad sex or whatever, isn't that far better to find out before marriage?

I believe that what Lady O was upset about was that the guy dated her cousin seemingly solely for the purpose of 'getting some'. Her cousin was so in love that she 'gave some', whereupon the guy promptly chalked another notch on his belt and left to presumably 'continue shopping around'.


@ Guildenstern - LOL I love your post. Yeah I was wondering about the pumpkin and why he had to highlight everyone in bright bright pink.

@ Mitz - Would you like to explain further about that, Mitz?

[Lady Orihime]

Lady Orihime, for someone with such a suggestive sig I wouldn't have guessed you were so against sbm :lmao

I never said I was against it. This is the third time I've said that now. What I am against is having multiple sex partners before marrige, and I'm against breaking up with someone just because he/she wasn't good in bed.

And my sig has to do with phone sex. There is no penetration involved :p And it's a joke.

And let me just say, I have no problems with outercourse.

She meant states probably.
You learn something new everyday

Yes. Sorry, it was early, and pain meds were kicking in.

I believe that what Lady O was upset about was that the guy dated her cousin seemingly solely for the purpose of 'getting some'. Her cousin was so in love that she 'gave some', whereupon the guy promptly chalked another notch on his belt and left to presumably 'continue shopping around'.

Exactly. This guy wasn't a virgin, I should mention. Seemed to me like he wanted to take her virginity, and then **** n' dump. Imagine losing it to some guy/girl you were head over heels in love with, and thought he/she was also, but dumps you after he/she takes one of the most important things from you. Something you can never physically get back. She was a freaking mess after this, almost committed suicide. She is one of those people who think that if she is alone, life isn't worth living.

[Starwing]

@Lady Orihime,

Sorry, I didn't mean to be crude or insensitive, I wasn't thinking straight. I'm sorry for your cousin. We obvously think differently and I wasn't considering that. To someone like that, she hasn't lost anything; he obviously wasn't worth it.

[Ileenka]

And my sig has to do with phone sex. There is no penetration involved :p And it's a joke.

And let me just say, I have no problems with outercourse.

That is some weird reasoning there. So let me get you straight. You quoted Leviticus from the Bible on prohibitions of fornication, but you are implying that you are completely okay with oral sex and girls or guys who rub themselves against poles in strip bars - because hey, there is no penetration involved. I'm pretty sure the Bible does not of such practices, either.

I don't mean to pick on your personal beliefs, but I find it odd that you whipped out instructions and warnings from the Scripture to chastise other people, yet you justified yourself with non-biblical values.

I'm no staunch Christian, and this is exactly what I loathe about people who act all holier than thou just because they have never had sex. They'd pull out quotes from the Bible just to prove to other people they are 'obeying' the Word of God by not having sex before marriage, or by not indulging in homosexuality - condemning other people in the process. But oh heyyy, it's OKAY that they perform suggestive sexual acts through other means, just as long as direct penetration is not involved :rolleyes:

And I like what Starwing has said, although our opinions on the matter are slightly different. :)

[Lady Orihime]

That is some weird reasoning there. So let me get you straight. You quoted Leviticus from the Bible on prohibitions of fornication, but you are implying that you are completely okay with oral sex and girls or guys who rub themselves against poles in strip bars - because hey, there is no penetration involved. I'm pretty sure the Bible does not of such practices, either.

Uh, Leviticus quote had to do with homosexuals, and why leaders of churches won't marry them. MeiYara asked about why homosexuals can't marry in the US and other countries, and I answered her; that many people think that marrige in a sacred union between a man and woman.

I only brought up the references because someone was wondering why people were so up-tight with sex before marrige. I pointed out that some people are up-tight about sex before marriage because of the religion they follow.

I don't mean to pick on your personal beliefs, but I find it odd that you whipped out instructions and warnings from the Scripture to chastise other people, yet you justified yourself with non-biblical values.

I only brought up the references because someone was wondering why people were so up-tight with sex before marrige. I pointed out that some people are up-tight about sex before marriage because of the religion they follow.

I'm no staunch Christian, and this is exactly what I loathe about people who act all holier than thou just because they have never had sex. They'd pull out quotes from the Bible just to prove to other people they are 'obeying' the Word of God by not having sex before marriage, or by not indulging in homosexuality - condemning other people in the process. But oh heyyy, it's OKAY that they perform suggestive sexual acts through other means, just as long as direct penetration is not involved :rolleyes:

When did I say I never had sex? o_0

There is a HUGE difference between intercourse, and outercourse; I think outercourse is okay because it lowers the risk of unwanted pregnancy’s, and abortions. And it also keeps your hymen in tack until you feel you are ready to go the whole way (unless it's already been torn due to exercise activites)

You don't know anything about my beliefs, so please don't act like you do.

RE-CAP:

I only brought up the references because someone was wondering why people were so up-tight with sex before marrige. I pointed out that some people are up-tight about sex before marriage because of the religion they follow.

AND the Leviticus quote had to do with homosexuals, and why leaders of churches won't marry them. MeiYara asked about why homosexuals can't marry in the US and other countries, and I answered her; that many people think that marrige in a sacred union between a man and woman.

[Ileenka]

Uh, Leviticus quote had to do with homosexuals, and why leaders of churches won't marry them. MeiYara asked about why homosexuals can't marry in the US and other countries, and I answered her; that many people think that marrige in a sacred union between a man and woman.


Thanks for stating that more clearly now. You could have answered MeiYara without using that quote from the Bible. By quoting from a chapter in the Bible, you gave the impression that you are preaching about Christianity and what Leviticus has said specifically on the subject of sex before marriage and sex between homosexuals, instead of answering the question with general sense and logic, devoid of religious details.

Also, as far as I know, homosexual couples do not have the only option to be married in church. If they aren't Christians, they never have to bother with the Church in the first place. They would just need to go to the General Register Office, and sign the appropriate marriage papers. This is lawful in some countries which define the constituent of marriage as the union between two individuals, above legal age - despite their gender. I believe that was what MeiYara was trying to say.


I only brought up the references because someone was wondering why people were so up-tight with sex before marrige. I pointed out that some people are up-tight about sex before marriage because of the religion they follow.

Lady O, you missed my point. I apologise if I wasn't articulate enough. But I wasn't talking about Leviticus specifically. Rather, I was pointing out how it surprises me that for someone who preach about the Bible, they believe that it is acceptable to commit other sexual acts where non-penetrative, heterosexual acts are involved, and justified it with non-biblical statements.

If those people are uptight about sex before marriage because of the religion they follow (like you put it), then I find it hypocritical that they alright with other sexual acts which is just as bad as going all the way.

That was what I was trying to say.


When did I say I never had sex? o_0


When did I say 'you'? o_o;

I was speaking generally, without references to any specific individual, and I was using the plural nominative pronoun, 'they'. I don't think I questioned whether you had sex or not, as I do not and will not have the interest to know. Perhaps mitzibe will put up a new thread next, asking the forum, "Who has had sex?!" Then again, some people might lie anyway. :lmao Okay, I digress.

There is a HUGE difference between intercourse, and outercourse; I think outercourse is okay because it lowers the risk of unwanted pregnancy’s, and abortions. And it also keeps your hymen in tack until you feel you are ready to go the whole way (unless it's already been torn due to exercise activites)

Well, it is your opinion, and I have no say to when you prefer your hymen to stay intact or not - but Lady O, you misunderstand. o_o Let me put it to you once again. Personally, I have no problems with sex before marriage, or sexual acts or gratifications which do not involve penetration. My problem, however - underlies in the fact that you brought up a quote from the Bible to answer MeiYara, but you justified your opinion with non-biblical statements such as:

1. Sex before marriage could be alright, providing you know that the person involved is your soulmate and you love each other.

I actually agree with you, with one little problem. Most of the time, people don't know whether the person they're with would be their soulmate or partner for life. At that instance, he or she may be the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with. Things could change after entering the covenant of marriage. Things could change before, as well. So in the situation where I may feel like chastising my friend by shoving a Bible quote into his or her face, I might want to look at myself - whether I follow other teachings from the Bible myself.


2. Sex between homosexuals is not okay.

The Bible may prohibit sex between homosexuals - and it is easy for some people to lament how wrong it is when they are heterosexuals. Things, however - look differently when one is on the other side of the meadow. I think in sensitive circumstances such as these, it is better to understand where people are coming from before telling them what they're doing is simply wrong.


You don't know anything about my beliefs, so please don't act like you do.

I don't understand your beliefs. That is the reason why I posted and mentioned that how odd I find your reasonings and justifications are.


RE-CAP:


I only brought up the references because someone was wondering why people were so up-tight with sex before marrige. I pointed out that some people are up-tight about sex before marriage because of the religion they follow.

AND the Leviticus quote had to do with homosexuals, and why leaders of churches won't marry them. MeiYara asked about why homosexuals can't marry in the US and other countries, and I answered her; that many people think that marrige in a sacred union between a man and woman.

Eh, deja vu. I think I have answered this in the first paragraph.

[Hiraeth]

Ileenka- in the legislation of some countries it specifically states that marriage is between one man and one woman. In Australia and most states of the US for example, homosexual couples cannot be legally married. They can live as if they are married, they can have a marriage ceremony but the state will not recognize them as being married. They cannot get a marriage certificate, they are not able to benefit from laws that affect married people, things like that.

[mitzibe]

GEEZ. Stop it ladies, I'm not interested in all this laws about homosexuals. I just made a thread about your opinions. I side with Lady Orihime and Hiraeth because they are my mooshy pumpkins. I don't understand what Lady Orihime said but I think she is right. I don't support sex before marriage and if you like it I think you are wrong and you have sinned. I am Christian and I know women should submit to their husbands it is written in the bible. Playing with girls but no insert my length into her also maintains her purity I think this is what Lady Orihime is saying so I agree with her completely.

I think Ileenka is acting like an arrogant know it all. Hiraeth :love :love I don't think Ileenka means all homosexuals can get married but whatever. I support you in trying to rebutt her.

People please talk about homosexuals in the COMING OUT OF THE CLOSET thread. I made it also. It is more appropriate in debating there. I think Ileenka you should stop posting in here because people don't like you.

[Ileenka]

@Hiraeth: Erm. Please read my post carefully. I said in 'some' countries, homosexuals can get married because their government legalizes such marriages. The Netherlands, for example.

And because of this, I have also said a few pages back that there is no way a homosexual can 'save themselves' for marriage. I'd like to meet one who has the thought of saving themselves for marriage, however. It would be so cute, I'd totally be their fag hag. :inlove Anyway, jokes and nonsense aside, to contemplate on 'sex before marriage' regarding homosexuals is farcical, don't you think?

To put it simply for the final time, I was only against the specific quotation from the Bible to answer another's question. I wonder if I have been so vague that people misunderstand so much. If so, I apologise. I would appreciate it if you would read me more thoroughly and try to understand my intention before taking my post right out of context next time. :)

@mitzibe: I'm glad you are not on my side of this debate. :ohh

[Hiraeth]

My apologies for misreading your post Ileenka. But I'm not sure how to take the whole 'homosexuals saving themselves for marriage' comments. I'm not sure why you find it farcical?

I mean yes I understand that gay marriage is not legal in some countries and most, if not all, religions are against it, but marriage is mostly about recognizing your commitment to another person. The reason this is such a contentious issue is that those fighting for it want to be able to legally recognize that their commitment to one another is just as strong as a straight couple getting married. So in countries where a gay marriage is legally recognized is it not completely valid for a homosexual, or bisexual, to save themselves for marriage? Even in a country where gay marriage is illegal, a homosexual couple could travel to get married.

[Unicorn]

Alright guys, this has become too personal and is on borderline flaming. Please stop this and keep on-topic.

I understand that some people can get quite defensive about attacks on their religion, so keep it gentle.

Discuss religion in the religion debate thread. Mitz, am not entirely sure why you keep on going on and on about submissive women, but I'll bring the topic to the religion section.

[Ileenka]

Of course it is possible for people to travel to countries that permit same sex marriages. But my problem wasn't about whether gays could get married or not in the first place, hence why I didn't elaborate on the subject. I was merely placing my finger on the ironical sense of hypocrisy, which I think somehow got lost in a mass of technicalities. :) Sorry, I'll exit now.

[manfan]

I'm a little bit confused.....how does sex between a couple before marriage can help build their relationship?

I've read about people's negative views in regards to sex before marriage.....but I still can't catch the positive views in regards to sex before marriage.

[Guildenstern]

I side with Lady Orihime and Hiraeth because they are my mooshy pumpkins. I don't understand what Lady Orihime said but I think she is right.
Clearly, you are a master of debate. Currently would like to introduce a motion to have this thread moved out 'Debates' into whatever other forum category is for 'Making threads to pick up chicks who agree with me'.

And purely from a 'ORLY' standpoint, as Lady O (all credit and no offense here) does seem to be implying here that she has in fact engaged in acts of a carnal nature, conversely is Lady Orihime a sinning, naughty badbad girl? And if she is, can your agreement with her be construed as most rank hypocracy in the name of scoring brownie points with 'soiled doves' or just a simple mental blunder on par with your debate skills?

I don't support sex before marriage and if you like it I think you are wrong and you have sinned. I am Christian and I know women should submit to their husbands it is written in the bible. Playing with girls but no insert my length into her also maintains her purity I think this is what Lady Orihime is saying so I agree with her completely.
Fun fact: Guildy went to 5 years of Bible Seminary! I don't seem like the type, do I? But it's true. Prepare for a theological lecture.

As evidenced by several little speeches Christ gave and the subject of several of the Ten Commandments, even looking with lust in your heart upon a woman is the -same thing- as actually doing it. So no-- even if you play the 'Oh honey, I'll only put in the tip' card, yes-- if you're looking upon a woman with carnal intent you are, in fact, doing it. (Since so many people in this thread profess to be devout Christians, I'm sure I don't actually have to go look up the verse for you to know what I'm talking about.) It's a bit like using technicalities to get around your parents' rules--do you know it's not right to stay out fifteen minutes past curfew because you had an "emergency" involving forgetting where you left your car keys at your girlfriend's house? Of course you do. Does excusing it on a technicality make it right? No, it's an attempt not to get in trouble or take responsibility for something you know is wrong anyway. Jesus says no diddling, son.

[Edited out per Unicorn's request. *punts theology rant over to Religion section~]

Also Jesus hung out with whores all the time. Don't be hatin'. :hm

[Starwing]

@Guild,

Beautifully said! I can't say I'm familiar with religion, but I have read the Christian bible and parts of the Book of Mormon (since I thought their creation theory was very entertaining).


Anyways, @manfan,
I think I was the one who encouraged sex before marriage as a means of furthering relationship first, so I'll answer as best as I can, I guess.

If you look at the study statistics, results actually show that:
-Pre-marital cohabilitation (living together)
-Pre-marital sex
Increases the rate of divorce. However, the rate of successful relationships that arises from this is also higher.

Why? Because people who are willing to be cautious when it comes to marriage are also the type of people who are careful with their happiness. If they feel uncomfortable in a marriage, they will ask for a divorce. Their strength of commitment is lower.


However, for people who do not have pre-marital sex, infidelity is a main cause for divorce. And why does infidelity result? From loss of physical or emotional intimacy. 2% of all men/women stated sexual dissatisfaction as their MAIN cause, and 20+% state infidelity, more state that their expectations were not fulfilled. And illusions or lack of knowledge about sex is one of the main contributors in all of these.


So my take is that pre-marital sex is that yes, it does increase divorce rates, but it also increases your chance for happiness. Since half of all US marriages results in divorce anyways (regardless), why not take your chances? In Canada, 40% of marriages end in divorce. I don't know the stats for other countries.

Pre-marital sex gives you a realistic expectation. If your partner is one of the 2% that would divorce you for bad sex, or one of the 20% that would divorce you because comparatively, someone else is better, it's better to find out before marriage. If YOU are so disgusted by the experience you become that 2% or those 20%, it's better for both of you to find out beforehand. Not to mention all of those couples who divorce because of unrealistic expectations.

And if you love them and the sex is bad, you'll be aware that you have one problem to work through after marriage. This way, it doesn't come as a surprise after it's too late to turn back w/o a lot of hassle and heart-break and all that stuff.

Does that make sense? I guess it's because some people (like me) not idealistic enough to believe in everlasting love or 'the one'. Those people have to be a lot more careful about their happiness. I'm not confident that I can be those 1 in 2 that ends up happy until old age. It's all well and good to fall in love, but it means nothing unless you can make sure you're happy. Sex before marriage is not the be-all and end-all, but it IS a major contributor. And knowledge, of any sort, is power to control your own fate.

[manfan]

You seem to be emphasizing happiness.....I'm not very sure by what you are referring to happiness, yourself's own happiness, I suppose but not more the other partner's happiness, right?

Here's the thing that I don't understand......
If you look at the study statistics, results actually show that:
-Pre-marital cohabilitation (living together)
-Pre-marital sex
Increases the rate of divorce. However, the rate of successful relationships that arises from this is also higher.
If there are a lot of divorce rate....it increases, how then is that possible for sucessful relationship to be higher? Surely if your marriage are sucessful, there is no need for divorces, right? Unless you are talking among those who are now cohabitating, where since it is not official, then there is no such thing as divorce, but separation....they do not count. Then, how many separation break up a person suffers, doesn't really matter, as long as he/she is happy.

I'm still trying to see how you are able to conclude the successful relationship's rate to be higher.

Why? Because people who are willing to be cautious when it comes to marriage are also the type of people who are careful with their happiness. If they feel uncomfortable in a marriage, they will ask for a divorce. Their strength of commitment is lower.
I don't see wrong with wanting to be careful with marriage, not wanting to do pre-marital sex.....marriage is a one time affair, the partner is someone you will spend almost your lifetime with. Unless Starwing, you're the kind who believe, let's just go on with divorce and get on with it.

There are people who don't believe in 'marriage and early divorce', they'd rather stay on to keep the marriage work.

However what I don't understand here is how is it possible for you to say that these people's commitment, those who rather wait until that wedding night, have a much lower strength of commitment in compared to the people who are casually having sex with single/multiple partners.

However, for people who do not have pre-marital sex, infidelity is a main cause for divorce. And why does infidelity result? From loss of physical or emotional intimacy. 2% of all men/women stated sexual dissatisfaction as their MAIN cause, and 20+% state infidelity, more state that their expectations were not fulfilled. And illusions or lack of knowledge about sex is one of the main contributors in all of these.
2% of all men/women stated sexual dissatisfaction as their MAIN cause, and 20+% state infidelity, more state that their expectations were not fulfilled......only 20+% of them say is infidelity; but not all of them betray their partners because of physical sex, would it? It couldn't be about sex all throughout the 20 percent, factors like expectation of how the partner should act, at home/outside, how much money he/she should bring in, emotional aspect; being there when you need him/her most, sicknesses, in-laws......there are many aspects to a relationship that need to be explored, just not sex. I'm sure a normal person wouldn't be doing it 24 hours a day, 7 day a week, all throughout the year.

As for those who practice chastity, their lack of knowledge about sex or illusions of it....I'm sure there are stuffs that can help them, male and female; hentai write ups, porn magazines and videos,......some people are born to learn, while the others are natural. And the fact that both are inexperienced and immatured, trying it for the first time, and again and again until they get it right:)


So my take is that pre-marital sex is that yes, it does increase divorce rates, but it also increases your chance for happiness. Since half of all US marriages results in divorce anyways (regardless), why not take your chances? In Canada, 40% of marriages end in divorce. I don't know the stats for other countries.

So, you see yourself going to walk in the divorce road with your partner, and thus you jump into a person's bed, just so that you can get your happiness earlier?

Pre-marital sex gives you a realistic expectation. If your partner is one of the 2% that would divorce you for bad sex, or one of the 20% that would divorce you because comparatively, someone else is better, it's better to find out before marriage. If YOU are so disgusted by the experience you become that 2% or those 20%, it's better for both of you to find out beforehand. Not to mention all of those couples who divorce because of unrealistic expectations.
And if you love them and the sex is bad, you'll be aware that you have one problem to work through after marriage. This way, it doesn't come as a surprise after it's too late to turn back w/o a lot of hassle and heart-break and all that stuff.

Does that make sense? I guess it's because some people (like me) not idealistic enough to believe in everlasting love or 'the one'. Those people have to be a lot more careful about their happiness. I'm not confident that I can be those 1 in 2 that ends up happy until old age. It's all well and good to fall in love, but it means nothing unless you can make sure you're happy. Sex before marriage is not the be-all and end-all, but it IS a major contributor. And knowledge, of any sort, is power to control your own fate.

I hope you do not connect realistic expectation with just sex only.....it makes it sound like we human beings now are no difference than animals(not saying that you are) who go by beastie instinct when the females or when the heating season comes.

But let's just say, for the sake of discussion, if you have found the person that would satisfy you sexually, every night and you cohabitate with him; no marriage, just cohabitating with him. What if it comes a time when either you or him is struck by an illness / accident that takes away the very thing that contributes to making love? Breast cancer, ovary cancer, spinal injury, prostate cancer, etc. Would you be okay if he leaves you because you are now unable to provide his sexuality needs? Would you leave him and take another person now that he can satisfy your needs?

I do think, in compared to divorce rates, the rate of people getting cancer, especially sexual-related organs and people getting injuries, every day would be much higher.

It happens in married couples too, not necessarily on co-habitating couples. But what makes it significant and more guaranteed between the two, is that the married couples are binded by law, and their rights, especially the female is protected through the marriage law certificate....you'll have to go through a lot of process just to get divorces. Cohabitating couples also break up, but the woman is left with nothing that comes with the breakup. And the children that comes out married couple are more emotionally and mentally stable(provided that the parents work it out) as in compared with children of single parent, whose partner changes every once in a while.

Reality, we all will grow old one day, our body will fail us and our partners one too. And when that happens, will there still be happiness for people who are not commited to their partners, who only want to have their sex-overdrive needs fullfilled? Or is that just a mere sweet dream we no longer be able to grasp?

I'm sure you have heard old Charlene's song, 'I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to Me.", haven't you?

[Primera Espada]

personal experience here.

sex before marriage complicates things by adding to the level of attachment. you might not break up with someone cause you don't wanna stop having sex.

Happens a lot.

Or,you might get used cause of sex.

[Guildenstern]

personal experience here.

sex before marriage complicates things by adding to the level of attachment. you might not break up with someone cause you don't wanna stop having sex.

Happens a lot.

Or,you might get used cause of sex.

That has NOTHING to do with sex before marriage.

That has EVERYTHING to do with not being emotionally mature enough to break away from someone you're pretty much using for sex. In which case you are WAY not ready to get married anyway. It's not the fault of the sex, it's the fault of the person who is......well, childish enough to pretend to hold up the other side of a relationship with someone else so they can get laid.

Big difference here.

[mitzibe]

2% of all men/women stated sexual dissatisfaction as their MAIN cause, and 20+% state infidelity, more state that their expectations were not fulfilled......only 20+% of them say is infidelity; but not all of them betray their partners because of physical sex, would it? It couldn't be about sex all throughout the 20 percent, factors like expectation of how the partner should act, at home/outside, how much money he/she should bring in, emotional aspect; being there when you need him/her most, sicknesses, in-laws......

Wow, I've got to give it to you, bro. You are da man. You know soooo much!! Where did you get the stats from, by the way? Is that uh...worldwide or just Bermuda? :confused:

there are many aspects to a relationship that need to be explored, just not sex. I'm sure a normal person wouldn't be doing it 24 hours a day, 7 day a week, all throughout the year.

This is true I agree with this but what about couples who might be involved in the gigolo or prostitution industry? I have seen some really dark Thai, Indo and Chinese movies about cases like these. May not be 24 hours a day but they are couples who do stay together and unable to get out because they are trapped with a syndicate since they were 10 or 12 or something. It's a dark, dark world out there, bro.

As for those who practice chastity, their lack of knowledge about sex or illusions of it....I'm sure there are stuffs that can help them, male and female; hentai write ups, porn magazines and videos,......some people are born to learn, while the others are natural. And the fact that both are inexperienced and immatured, trying it for the first time, and again and again until they get it right :)

JESUS SAID NO PORN WATCHING OR READING. Geez brother I'm disappointed in you. Don't do that again. Promise me you will confess your sins before you go to bed tonight. :mad:

Practice makes perfect I understand couples who want to practice before marriage but I think they can practice after marriage also.

ps. what is this hentai writeup you speak of?

[Ros]

Guild tried to post but was logged in to my account, but I wanted to respond to this myself:

As for those who practice chastity, their lack of knowledge about sex or illusions of it....I'm sure there are stuffs that can help them, male and female; hentai write ups, porn magazines and videos,......some people are born to learn, while the others are natural. And the fact that both are inexperienced and immatured, trying it for the first time, and again and again until they get it right

It's an interesting point you make here, but what those things don't prepare you for is the emotional intimacy of sex and the fact that you can't discover, through those things, if the person you're getting married to is even someone who has the same tastes as you, or is someone you're sexually compatible with. That kind of thing is important. It's not as important as "Hey, I really love this person, I want to spend the rest of my life with them"--but it's up there, especially when you read constantly about marriages that have failed because of a wife who loves her husband but he doesn't want to have sex with her, or a husband who finds out that his wife likes a kind of sexual practice that he doesn't understand and finds repellant. It's important that people find out about these things, and while there's a kind of romanticism attached to the idea that two people will enter their marriage bed and giggle and fumble through their first shared sexual experience and the magic will bloom, a lot of times...it just ends up as bad sex. And when you've made a really huge leap with someone to be married to them...now is not the time to be finding out whether the two of you click.

But that, like anything else, varies with the people involved.

[Guildenstern]

JESUS SAID NO PORN WATCHING OR READING. Geez brother I'm disappointed in you. Don't do that again. Promise me you will confess your sins before you go to bed tonight.

...You magnificent bastard.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/kaneklap.gif

[mitzibe]

Okay Ros dahling. I know you hate me. Shit, what did I ever do to you people to earn such titles as 'pigs' and neg reps. People can't voice their opinions anymore. Okay nevermind that. I will take your neg rep as a tomato thrown at me when I go shopping at Wal Mart or something and people hate me like they hate Kevin Federline. But one day you know I'm going to be rich and marry a supahstar.

I don't care if I get bad sex on my wedding night.. I can get them on the 2nd 3rd 4th 5th nights after, can't I. :notrust As long as we are new and squeaky for each other. Squeak squeak. :D I know there is this hentai game called True Love or something you know Japanese game. Not sure if it's by Konami but this guy was in secondary school and started having sex around with 8 different girls and he get to practice with them. You know that is every guy's dream come true but do you really want a guy like that. If guys want girls to be chastity pumpkins before their wedding night so why can't girls want guys to be chastity zucchinis as well. This is my logic.

[manfan]

mitzibe....I'm replying my comments of what I think of Starwing's post. You don't have to butt post and make it worse.

Wow, I've got to give it to you, bro. You are da man. You know soooo much!! Where did you get the stats from, by the way? Is that uh...worldwide or just Bermuda? :confused:

From Starwing, go ask her. But in my opinion, where she got it from and whether it's a reliable source.....I don't care.


This is true I agree with this but what about couples who might be involved in the gigolo or prostitution industry? I have seen some really dark Thai, Indo and Chinese movies about cases like these. May not be 24 hours a day but they are couples who do stay together and unable to get out because they are trapped with a syndicate since they were 10 or 12 or something. It's a dark, dark world out there, bro.

That's why I say 'normal person'. I'm not referring to those in gigolo/prostitution industry......they do that for a living.

Irrelevent.


JESUS SAID NO PORN WATCHING OR READING. Geez brother I'm disappointed in you. Don't do that again. Promise me you will confess your sins before you go to bed tonight. :mad:

Practice makes perfect I understand couples who want to practice before marriage but I think they can practice after marriage also.

ps. what is this hentai writeup you speak of?
Did I mention anything about always watching/reading porn during your free time, almost all your free time?;)

I said you don't have to practice wth others first just to gain the know-hows on the wedding night. Stuffs like that are intended to help you with your wife, to know which is the bridge and how to cross it.

Makes me wonder then how did it really happened on person's first time at it....was it by someone who are already experience in it, or was it by someone who is as equally clueless as he/she?

God say sex inside marriage is good---> it's where children are produced. But sex outside marriage, not with husband/wife ---> very bad.

By the way.....so mitzibe, is alchohol/wine permissible or a bad things in your Christian eyes?

It's an interesting point you make here, but what those things don't prepare you for is the emotional intimacy of sex and the fact that you can't discover, through those things, if the person you're getting married to is even someone who has the same tastes as you, or is someone you're sexually compatible with. That kind of thing is important. It's not as important as "Hey, I really love this person, I want to spend the rest of my life with them"--but it's up there, especially when you read constantly about marriages that have failed because of a wife who loves her husband but he doesn't want to have sex with her, or a husband who finds out that his wife likes a kind of sexual practice that he doesn't understand and finds repellant. It's important that people find out about these things, and while there's a kind of romanticism attached to the idea that two people will enter their marriage bed and giggle and fumble through their first shared sexual experience and the magic will bloom, a lot of times...it just ends up as bad sex. And when you've made a really huge leap with someone to be married to them...now is not the time to be finding out whether the two of you click.
Starwing and I are discussing how sex outside marriage helps to build a relationship between a man and a woman(she believes in cohabitation.....shop around, find out whether a guy is good for her, if not he dump her or she dump him.....if it is good sex relationship, they stay together). I think in this line, we are not talking about arrange marriage where the guy and girl who do not know each other, gets dumped together inside the marriage love hotel and then be expected to do IT.

We are talking about a relationship, how a love relationship between two lovers who love each other's all(mind, emotionally, property, future, dreams), share a kindred spirit/bond, but choose not to consumate their love until they are declared husband and wife.....perhaps because their religion requires of them to do so,....or perhaps because the new husband and wife thinks by keeping their body pure for each other(new husband and wife) they show love by giving their very best, their firsttime to the other.

It doesn't necessarily have to be religion reason.....it's just for safe-caution, like what Starwing says

As for the husband or the wife, which either one of them who thinks sex is addictive / repeled by it.......there's always marriage and sex counselling.

But seriously......Ros is everything really about sex? I know of people, once they reach at certain age or peak career, have too much of workload, would be too tired to actually think of having sex with him/her.

Unless of course that the one who wants sex every night is the one who has no proper paying job so he/she has nothing else better to do at night.

[mitzibe]

That's why I say 'normal person'. I'm not referring to those in gigolo/prostitution industry......they do that for a living.

Why irrelevant? Do that for a living also fall under this category sex before marriage. Impact of their lives will be greater. I insist on discussing ALL HUMANS where applicable and not just NORMAL human beings what do you mean by Normal anyway. In God's eyes every human is equal even your next door neighbor who is a murderer is as equal as you, manfan. I suggest we also discuss the consequences and complex situations of these prostitutes and gigolos in the industry. I think you da bro because you always seem to come up with very knowledgeable answers. I am interested in your input so let's talk man to man open to open like this what you say, bro. I honestly very sympathetic towards these people because I always wonder what their lives are going to be when they can't earn their living through that way anymore.

Did I mention anything about always watching/reading porn during your free time, almost all your free time?

Brother, watching porn in your busy time or free time you still sin against the lord ok. I go find that Bible quote next time or maybe nez| brother can come and say something out from his bible to you.


I said you don't have to practice wth others first just to gain the know-hows on the wedding night. Stuffs like that are intended to help you with your wife, to know which is the bridge and how to cross it.

Then you only have to ask her "HOW DO YOU WANT IT DONE, PUMPKIN?!"



Makes me wonder then how did it really happened on person's first time at it....was it by someone who are already experience in it, or was it by someone who is as equally clueless as he/she?

God say sex inside marriage is good---> it's where children are produced. But sex outside marriage, not with husband/wife ---> very bad.

Very thought provoking I think. I want to answer this....this situation to do with me because I said I want to keep my virginity.

By the way.....so mitzibe, is alchohol/wine permissible or a bad things in your Christian eyes?

Is this a trick question? I think in bible people always drink wine. Jesus turned water into wine, and the communion is taken with bread and wine. Alcohol and wine in moderation should be okay and not in excess I think bible said something like that before, I not so sure may have to check. But you know what I mean right. This is my logic.

[earthforge]

Wow, big discussion going on here.

My personal point of view: no sex before marraige. It is just a bad idea. Why? I invite you to watch "The Night of the Iguana" (watch the movie, the book is purely and simply confusing.) The minister at a church in the beginning cannot go through with his sermon. Why? Because he has lost his love of god from his addiction to sex. So he screams at the people in the sermon.

Now, your statistics are true. I cannot totally emphasize how much love is required for marraige. True-love is undeniable. But any thought of sex comes after marraige. The couple must love before the have sex. This is only my perspective, and do not be surprised as I do not know much. But the love between people is imperitive for a long lasting marraige.

[Shadoblak]

Isn't this like debating whether or not to wear socks with sandals? I mean its a personal choice and everyone has their opinions and reasons, and they'll probably practice their beliefs no matter what anyone says...You can't describe individual situations with statistics so they're sorta worthless here aren't they?

[Primera Espada]

well shado, I think this is mostly about people offering their opinions and advice for those to chose from when making their decisions, rather than changing the opinions of others.

Though I got a good lol about the notion that people who chose to be chaste are just ignorant or have "hang ups" XD

The fact that it's actually a smart idea for so many reasons doesn't seem to cross their mind. You can argue that it's not the *best* choice, but it's not like it's an invalid point.

[Starwing]

@Manfan,

My stats come from a US government site, so it's as accurate and precise as it's going to get for stats. *-.-' you know what they say about statistics* And also, these came from questionaires, and who willingly puts down bad sex as a reason? That just makes you look bad. So I suspect it might be more than 2%, but there's no evidence for it.

If there are a lot of divorce rate....it increases, how then is that possible for sucessful relationship to be higher? Surely if your marriage are sucessful, there is no need for divorces, right? Unless you are talking among those who are now cohabitating, where since it is not official, then there is no such thing as divorce, but separation....they do not count. Then, how many separation break up a person suffers, doesn't really matter, as long as he/she is happy.

I'm still trying to see how you are able to conclude the successful relationship's rate to be higher.

Successful as in non-abusive (verbal or physical) relationships, financially stable relationships, relationships without infidelities, etc.

Not all couples who stay together are happy, manfan. That's a basic fact we have to accept. Women's standard of living drops after divorce, whereas the men's standard of living improves. If given a choice between divorce as status quo, many people will choose to stay in a marriage they are unhappy with.

2% of all men/women stated sexual dissatisfaction as their MAIN cause, and 20+% state infidelity, more state that their expectations were not fulfilled......only 20+% of them say is infidelity; but not all of them betray their partners because of physical sex, would it? It couldn't be about sex all throughout the 20 percent, factors like expectation of how the partner should act, at home/outside, how much money he/she should bring in, emotional aspect; being there when you need him/her most, sicknesses, in-laws......there are many aspects to a relationship that need to be explored, just not sex. I'm sure a normal person wouldn't be doing it 24 hours a day, 7 day a week, all throughout the year.

As for those who practice chastity, their lack of knowledge about sex or illusions of it....I'm sure there are stuffs that can help them, male and female; hentai write ups, porn magazines and videos,......some people are born to learn, while the others are natural. And the fact that both are inexperienced and immatured, trying it for the first time, and again and again until they get it right

I didn't say sex was the be all, end all. I said it makes a sizable contribution. And that's an aspect we should consider, but it's a personal choice. I believe it prevents that 2% and those 20%.

And -.-' if you understand what pornography is for, it's not realistic. It actually RAISES the expectations. If you've ever watched any hentai stuff, that is NOT what the real deal is like. I'm not an expert on it myself, but seriously, commercial products like that are not good for realism. You would expect more out of sex by watching this, and most likely be disappointed by the real thing.

So, you see yourself going to walk in the divorce road with your partner, and thus you jump into a person's bed, just so that you can get your happiness earlier?

No. I would do it so that I can go into a marriage completely without doubts. I'll know that my partner is still willing to enter into the vow regardless of how good/bad the physical aspect is. I'll know FOR SURE that I'm ok with it regardless of how good/bad. Because really, if it's really, really terrible and my partner has kinky habits or whatever, I certainly won't stand for it, no matter how much I love them, I won't do something I'm not comfortable with.

And if the worse does happen, as in my partner abandons me, at least I'll find out before marriage.

I hope you do not connect realistic expectation with just sex only.....it makes it sound like we human beings now are no difference than animals(not saying that you are) who go by beastie instinct when the females or when the heating season comes.

Course not. I support cohabilitation. I support going on trips together, I support getting to know each other's troubles, habits, and see how compatible we are on all levels.

Sex is just a part of that. If I know everything about my partner, and they turn out to have some strange fetish I'm totally uncomfortable with. Did I really know this person to begin with? And really, I'm not submissive enough to just take it. That means we'll have to work something out. And if we can't work it out and find common ground there, then there's nothing for it. We'll still remain great friends, but we can't have sex together, period. I'm not willing to budge.


But let's just say, for the sake of discussion, if you have found the person that would satisfy you sexually, every night and you cohabitate with him; no marriage, just cohabitating with him. What if it comes a time when either you or him is struck by an illness / accident that takes away the very thing that contributes to making love? Breast cancer, ovary cancer, spinal injury, prostate cancer, etc. Would you be okay if he leaves you because you are now unable to provide his sexuality needs? Would you leave him and take another person now that he can satisfy your needs?

I do think, in compared to divorce rates, the rate of people getting cancer, especially sexual-related organs and people getting injuries, every day would be much higher.

The rate of divorce is 1/2 in the US, that's pretty difficult to beat. ^^' But anyways. If I'm dragging down a relationship because of illness, I'd want the one I love to find happiness. But that's not the point.

Sex is only a part of a relationship. I don't look for absolutely fantastic sex. I'm for prevention, to protect myself and my partner, so that we have no regrets before we marriage. Before all that, more importantly, they have to be good people, we need to have common interest, before we consider marriage in the first place, right?

It happens in married couples too, not necessarily on co-habitating couples. But what makes it significant and more guaranteed between the two, is that the married couples are binded by law, and their rights, especially the female is protected through the marriage law certificate....you'll have to go through a lot of process just to get divorces. Cohabitating couples also break up, but the woman is left with nothing that comes with the breakup. And the children that comes out married couple are more emotionally and mentally stable(provided that the parents work it out) as in compared with children of single parent, whose partner changes every once in a while.

I'll get the precise stats for you when I have time, but after divorce, a woman's standard of living drops (by 23% I think) while a man's improves (by11%). *have I said this before? O.o*

But that's because the woman becomes dependent on the relationship. That's something we have to consider in any relationship. I'd strongly recommend any woman entering a relationship to maintain their independence. Marriage or not.

Cohabilitation, or common law, usually results in two fairly independent partners. A breakup in this case doesn't result in devastation on either side if the relationship doesn't work out.

Reality, we all will grow old one day, our body will fail us and our partners one too. And when that happens, will there still be happiness for people who are not commited to their partners, who only want to have their sex-overdrive needs fullfilled? Or is that just a mere sweet dream we no longer be able to grasp?

I'm sure you have heard old Charlene's song, 'I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to Me.", haven't you?

Sexual activity continues into old age. It doesn't stop just because you're past your primes.

And I never said sex was the priority. If I've been misleading, I apologize. I believe it's an important part of married life we have to consider, but there are so many other things that come first. I think of premarital sex as protection for both parties. That is my personal view, you don't have to agree.


Whereas, if there are people out there who have sex for fun only, they're obviously not relying on their partners for support or anything. There's nothing wrong with that, those people just have different priorities and have to face different consequences than people who settle down and get married. But neither is superior.

I respect those who want to save sex for after marriage, but I think that is an unnecessary risk. Just ask yourself, what IF your partner hurts you during sex no matter what they try, and you're stuck with it? What if you hurt your partner during sex, and they're stuck with it? Shouldn't we have the choice?

In most cases, you'll acknowledge it and bear with it and move on. If you can't give each other pleasure, you can practice. But what if mechanically, things just don't fit (yes, it does happen)? Injuries do result if care is not taken. And I'd rather not find out after marriage.

[manfan]

We all know what how statistics work, it's often represent a small portion of society, not the whole.....it could also be rigged;) As I said to someone, I don't give a care/hoot about the statistic. What I'd like to know is what are the other factors that contribute to the insatisfactory marriage, seeing that it's bad sex is 'mere' small contribution factor percentage to the insatisfactory marriage.
Successful as in non-abusive (verbal or physical) relationships, financially stable relationships, relationships without infidelities, etc.

Not all couples who stay together are happy, manfan. That's a basic fact we have to accept. Women's standard of living drops after divorce, whereas the men's standard of living improves. If given a choice between divorce as status quo, many people will choose to stay in a marriage they are unhappy with.
If you're defining the above as being successful.....then I wonder why is divorce rate still very up. I think you miss my point, but let's just leave it as that.
I didn't say sex was the be all, end all. I said it makes a sizable contribution. And that's an aspect we should consider, but it's a personal choice. I believe it prevents that 2% and those 20%.

And -.-' if you understand what pornography is for, it's not realistic. It actually RAISES the expectations. If you've ever watched any hentai stuff, that is NOT what the real deal is like. I'm not an expert on it myself, but seriously, commercial products like that are not good for realism. You would expect more out of sex by watching this, and most likely be disappointed by the real thing.
I do understand what pornography's function, but I don't mean it as using it in that way. I've come across porns accidentally, but the way I see and understand it, I think porns can be used to initiate sex and help sex between husband and wife(I bolded them). Which means what husband reads, wife also reads to understand sex.

As for porn being not realistic, and RAISES the expectations....are you referring to men's expectations of women's bodies or how a women should behave during that time?

If it is the former, then it's understandable .....we(girls) mostly do not have that kind of body, the men should know what to expect from us when marrying us....but if it is the latter, wouldn't the husband be telling the wife what to he desires/not....most often no communication is the problem. Actually no communication is the problem for most marriage, they don't know what the other is thinking/want.


No. I would do it so that I can go into a marriage completely without doubts. I'll know that my partner is still willing to enter into the vow regardless of how good/bad the physical aspect is. I'll know FOR SURE that I'm ok with it regardless of how good/bad. Because really, if it's really, really terrible and my partner has kinky habits or whatever, I certainly won't stand for it, no matter how much I love them, I won't do something I'm not comfortable with.

And if the worse does happen, as in my partner abandons me, at least I'll find out before marriage.

Course not. I support cohabilitation. I support going on trips together, I support getting to know each other's troubles, habits, and see how compatible we are on all levels.

Sex is just a part of that. If I know everything about my partner, and they turn out to have some strange fetish I'm totally uncomfortable with. Did I really know this person to begin with? And really, I'm not submissive enough to just take it. That means we'll have to work something out. And if we can't work it out and find common ground there, then there's nothing for it. We'll still remain great friends, but we can't have sex together, period. I'm not willing to budge.

The rate of divorce is 1/2 in the US, that's pretty difficult to beat. ^^' But anyways. If I'm dragging down a relationship because of illness, I'd want the one I love to find happiness. But that's not the point.

Sex is only a part of a relationship. I don't look for absolutely fantastic sex. I'm for prevention, to protect myself and my partner, so that we have no regrets before we marriage. Before all that, more importantly, they have to be good people, we need to have common interest, before we consider marriage in the first place, right?

So, that's why some people are not happy with the Christian wife being asked to be submissive to Christian husband.

And you believe that very reason(sex before marriage)....letting yourself, your body to be tried out or trying others be the safe preventative measure from marriage and heart breaks?

The rate of divorce is 1/2 in the US, that's pretty difficult to beat. ^^' But anyways. If I'm dragging down a relationship because of illness, I'd want the one I love to find happiness. But that's not the point.

Sex is only a part of a relationship. I don't look for absolutely fantastic sex. I'm for prevention, to protect myself and my partner, so that we have no regrets before we marriage. Before all that, more importantly, they have to be good people, we need to have common interest, before we consider marriage in the first place, right?

Now, the way I see it as sex being the only factor that breaks / makes marriages.Sexual activity continues into old age. It doesn't stop just because you're past your primes.

And I never said sex was the priority. If I've been misleading, I apologize. I believe it's an important part of married life we have to consider, but there are so many other things that come first. I think of premarital sex as protection for both parties. That is my personal view, you don't have to agree.


Whereas, if there are people out there who have sex for fun only, they're obviously not relying on their partners for support or anything. There's nothing wrong with that, those people just have different priorities and have to face different consequences than people who settle down and get married. But neither is superior.

I respect those who want to save sex for after marriage, but I think that is an unnecessary risk. Just ask yourself, what IF your partner hurts you during sex no matter what they try, and you're stuck with it? What if you hurt your partner during sex, and they're stuck with it? Shouldn't we have the choice?

In most cases, you'll acknowledge it and bear with it and move on. If you can't give each other pleasure, you can practice. But what if mechanically, things just don't fit (yes, it does happen)? Injuries do result if care is not taken. And I'd rather not find out after marriage.
Well, we just see them differently with a same wish/objective.

To me it's to safeguard the girl's future and her children's interest. I know marriages are uncertain, but I don't like the idea to be used / tested and then if the girl do not match his requirements, they do not get married. What if the girl has a baby in result to that sex before marriage and he doesn't want her anymore? What if she finds out that he's actually a married man with a 'happy wife and children'? Even if there is no child coming out of this, the girl would feel herself being used just as a mere outlet for the frustration of a man devoid of sex life.

I was not born at that time......on my aunty's wedding dinner, her husband's family came for that dinner, uninvited; his wife and children, announcing that that my aunty is the other woman, the concubine. Later my cousins when small were called bastards and bitches, shunned at(thanks to their half-siblings) because of what their father did.

You too wish to safeguard your future(and possibly your children's interest), that's why you don't mind having sex with your partner, to test and see the compatiblity 'key and lock' thing. But we all know the future itself is uncertain with many things, what is then there a safe guarantee that your partner isn't going to keep his eyes wandering away from you?

My brother, eventhough he's married now, still visits that porn websites to get his kicks, eventhough he's going to be a father soon.

Sex, especially if it is forbidden and bad(as in sinful sex, not unenjoyable sex) is an addiction, it's also a reason why I wish to marry someone who doesn't practice sex before marriage especially at an early age....I don't want him to develop that unhealthy sexual obsession too fast.....heck I don't like him learning at an early age, until he has nothing more to learn that he becomes involved into kinky stuffs;)

As for sex continues until old age......I'm sure it applies more to man than woman. For a woman, it's childbirth, illnesses and menopauses....and when that happens, so what? They are permitted by their partners to look out for other girls to satisfy their sexual needs....so that they themselves(men) are happy?

This isn't anymore about sex before marriage. It's about cohabitation / marriage now, which gender benefits more/don't .....so let's just stop it here.

[mitzibe]

Ok. I confess. I'm not a Christian. I'm an atheist. HAHAHAHA. Gotcha.

But I think not only Christian wives are asked to be submissive. In many eastern cultures wives are expected to submit to their husbands also. Like Japanese women. Or Buddhist/Taoist/Hindu/Sikh wives. You with me?

Edit: and how does this related to the debate at hand? I believe that we are discussing before marriage, which doesn't allow for the status of 'wife'. Unless it's religious, then please bring it to the appropriate debate thread. ~ Unicorn

[Starwing]

@Mitzibe,
I thought so. X.X See? Doesn't it feel much better when you're honest?


@Manfan

If you're defining the above as being successful.....then I wonder why is divorce rate still very up. I think you miss my point, but let's just leave it as that.

Sorry, I reread your post and I'm afraid I still don't know what you mean. ^^'

I do understand what pornography's function, but I don't mean it as using it in that way. I've come across porns accidentally, but the way I see and understand it, I think porns can be used to initiate sex and help sex between husband and wife(I bolded them). Which means what husband reads, wife also reads to understand sex.

As for porn being not realistic, and RAISES the expectations....are you referring to men's expectations of women's bodies or how a women should behave during that time?

If it is the former, then it's understandable .....we(girls) mostly do not have that kind of body, the men should know what to expect from us when marrying us....but if it is the latter, wouldn't the husband be telling the wife what to he desires/not....most often no communication is the problem. Actually no communication is the problem for most marriage, they don't know what the other is thinking/want.

And most men don't have the bodies shown on AVs either. Women and men don't react the same way as they do in porn. They don't make the same sounds, their tolerance levels are not the same, positions are different, expertise are not the same, and there are a lot of problems in real life sex that you don't see in AVs. I honestly don't think AVs would give anyone anything but false information.

And although less common, there are AVs targetting women. And not to mention. Half of the AVs out there (that