Pairing Debate Thread

[Starwing]

Poor space, always having to remind us of the debate section. I didn't think I'd be the one making this... O.O... But anyways, this is way overdue. This is probably the one topic most debated, in which both sides have lots of evidence, from different angles.

I suspect the main two pairings debated here will be IchiHime and IchiRuki. That is not a problem if we keep things civil. If there is ANY addressing of other posters or the opposing couple in derogatory or impolite ways, I'll bug the mods until they close this down.

Rules
-Be polite
-Do not post opinions unless you can back it up. Debate means you must provide justifications.
-Since this is a debate, if a question is posed, answer it as well as you can. If you can't answer it, admit it. Do not question where the question is coming from, or put down the question, just answer it.
-Try not to scare off anyone. If you have a long debate, organize it into sections and put them in spoiler boxes or something. Makes it easier to read.
-Bring in new information! If you feel like the opposing party is not getting it, do not repeat yourself. If they don't get it the first time, they won't the second time. Speak up only if you have something you haven't said before, or want to provide more evidence, or elaborate.


Premise: IchigoxOrihime versus IchigoxRukia and other pairings

-State your position clearly.
-Which one you like
-Which one you think will happen

-The MERIT of the couple you support. What is good about it?

-The EVIDENCE of the couple you support. Valid evidence is; scene/dialogue in manga, databooks, the novels and the omakes.

-Other Information: any name-connections, allusion to folk lores, where Kubo gets his inspirations (DBZ and Honey and Clover, etc.) and anything else I can't think of at the moment.

-Extrapolations, Trends and Patterns: Anything from the manga not directly connected to pairings, but you feel helps. This includes the fates of other couples, repeated events, etc.

-Pose intelligent questions to the opposite party. Put them in bold. Do NOT pose questions that you know they have no answers for. Do NOT use this to show off your argument's superiority. Do it only if you genuinely want an answer.


I encourage everyone to look at the debate from multiple angles, not just their own. Look at it from literary standpoints, from marketing aspects, from evidence in the manga, from simplified facts, from trends and the history the couples share, compatability, future prospects, etc.

I will try to keep a tally of the evidence provided for both sides. But I can't guarantee that I won't seem biased. So pm me if I've missed points or whatever. *or neg-rep me... I'll get the idea even if I won't know exactly what I missed :P*



So I'll start it off, I guess... My position is IchiRuki. I like it better and I also believe it will happen.

Developments and Trends:

As of 292, I think Kubo has repeatedly shown us that Orihime is not getting through to Ichigo yet. If Ichigo looking at Nell and ignoring Orihime is an isolated event, I would probably write it off. However, it is not. Nor is it entirely subtle. We saw similar subtle hints in previous chapters. Ichigo calling Nell's name first when he wakes from his wounds. Ichigo thanking Nell and then adding "you too, Inoue" after his fight with GJ.

And also, Ichigo ignoring Orihime should be a big deal. Orihime was just in a dangerous situation, one where Ichigo should've been worried about. If ever his friends are in danger, wasn't he always aware of it? However, in chapter 292, he didn't seem to note that she was out of danger.

This is not to say Ichigo is ALWAYS unaware of Orihime. She gave him a lot of strength in the GJ fight, and he defended her when GJ shot the cero at her. However, 292 is a moment when Ichigo SHOULD be aware of Orihime, and he wasn't.

Nell's transformation is comparable to Yoruichi's transformation in SS. Ichigo was equally shocked and preoccupied. However, Kubo paced it so that the distraction doesn't distract Ichigo from Rukia. On the bridge scene, after ignoring her initially (comparable to 292), he went back and talked to her for the rest of the chapter.

I predict that, given Kubo's trend, Ichigo will NOT go to talk to Orihime next chapter. His ignoring her will not be addressed at all. Uryuu and Renji's fight will finish instead.

If this prediction is true, it means Ichigo is not aware that he ignored her. She is simply not in his mind. Whereas in the bridge scene of SS, Ichigo ignored Rukia intentionally, and was always aware of her existence, and simply addressed her afterwards.

So does everyone see the same trend? If not, do you notice any other trends concerning Orihime? And address each trend (this one and any you propose) and speculate on where Kubo means to go.

*Hopes this is good enough for a pairing thread, it's more work than I thought*

[Hurley]

yay nice thread hope this one turns out well. heres my opinions and ideas.

Im in favour of the ichihime but thats mainly cuz i like renjruki pairing so thats my main reason. i feel renji and rukia have a much stronger bond than ichigo does, as my main reason. But i think Orhime is a better match for Ichigo even tho he does ignore her sometimes i think it may be because he takes her for granted. Ichigo is sorta insensitive if you think about it. his other friends like keigo and the other one always wanna hang out with him but cuz they dont have (shingami type powers) he ignores them he never really talks to chad or orhime unless needed.

He spends alot of his time dealing with hollows etc... most of the day and gets shouted at by rukia when he does somthing wrong... most ppl take that as playful flirting etc.. but if renji was there instead of rukia he would shout at itchigo as well and ppl wouldnt think it was flirting they would think its renji trying to teach ichigo the rules that shinigami must learn etc. i have more to say but ill leave it here since im tired and will wait till others give me there rebutle.

Edit: i know this is not set out how u wanted in ur post but im a little tired and will correct and make it easier to read as i can now.

[Lady Scaper]

I wanted to add this question, I know it is not really a well structured debate but I will say I was quite surprised when I read one particular part of a post in the chapter thread and I had to ask a question.





Why in a scene with multiple women one has to be 'competing" against another? I don't see anyone saying how Chad, Uryuu or Renji hate Ichigo for having some chick live in his closet. Or desperately vying for any of the girls attention to put Ichigo on his guard. I mean why is Rukia brought into this Orihime/Nell comparison thing anyway? I mean as far as we know she's off bleeding out somewhere. It's like sheesh let go of the female hate female cliche in entertainment. Sometimes it's really not there. I don't compete against/get jealous of my female friends. I don't see why that can't be the same in a manga with 2 dimensional characters.

Well said! Though any girl next to Orihime will always be considered competition and it will always be highlighted that any girl but Orihime will be noticed. Just have to accept it, I guess.


Why is any girl next to Orihime considered competition? I totally do not understand that. In my mind at least no one is competition for anyone. I don't find it as a fact that Orihime competes with any girl.

I have seen Orihime noticed. Also Rukia (which I guess everyone likes to think of competition but is not) noticed and went with her to the soul society to help her out (and make her feel better. If that is not noticing Orihime I dunno what is. I mean after all the gang came to rescue her. If they didn't notice they wouldn't have come for her.

A part of me thinks it was a mistake for Kubo to reveal Orihime felt jealous of Rukia and Ichigo's relationship. Ever since then (on any side of the pairing debate) I think it has hurt Orihime's character since people have been assigning very negative selfish feelings toward Orihime or have been saying that Orihime is some kind of victim of a whole bunch of voluptuous hussies who, in the story (not what fans think, but what's actually written in the manga) are her friends. With friends like that (if the other female characters were really like that) I wouldn't want to hang around them. I am sure Orhime wouldn't either, she does not seem the type of girl to be fake about a friendship. Everyone seems to forget that Orihime felt bad about her jealous feelings. The statement was more a reflection on her self then on how she felt about her female friends. The fact that she cried for feeling jealous obvious means she is very conflicted and cares a whole lot about Rukia.

[Starwing]

@Hurley,
That's alright, lol. I don't follow my own format half the time. XP Should I add RenRuki to the debate? I will if we get lots of evidence in this part. But yeah... it's open to all pairings, so RenRuki is just as legit as IchiRuki or IchiHime.

@Lady Scaper
I don't think it's a mistake for Kubo to set Orihime as being jealous. It's not the most flattering emotion to feel, but it's realistic, and it makes Orihime's feelings that much more authentic.

And people are always hard on female leads. There will always be people who dislike them no matter what they do. I have yet to see any female lead completely liked by anyone. There will always be haters. If Orihime was NOT jealous at all, I think some people would've zoomed in on her passive nature in this arc and disliked her because of that.

And lol, I think Nocturne was half joking when she said any girl next to Orihime would be considered competition. Because Orihime has clear-cut romantic intentions towards Ichigo, we are always aware of how she interacts with Ichigo and look at it in specific ways. It's in human nature to compare. I halfway consider any girl (and guy X.X) beside Rukia as competition as well. Most of the time not seriously, but still.

Orihime sets herself up for comparison with Rukia because she herself sees the difference here. Therefore comparison between these two is logical and even sometimes necessary if we want to talk about any pairing. As for Orihime being compared with other girls, that is partially because she is well aware of her lackings, therefore WE are aware of them, and comparisons are easy to make here. In the case of Orihime and Nell though, I think the comparisons are set-up by Kubo. Since it is Nell that encouraged Orihime to believe in Ichigo, some fans (including me) see that as a weakness in Orihime's part.


OK, serious:

Questions
1. Note trends concerning Orihime's interaction with Ichigo and comment on them.
-Orihime seems to be ignored sometimes, from subtle to not-so-subtle moments.
-Ichigo seems to ignore everyone who is not powerful, not just Orihime. Happened with Chad and Mizuiro and Keigo and even Tatsuki.

2. Why is any girl next to Orihime competition for Ichigo's affections? Even when it is clear in many of those cases that a romantic relationship (between Ichigo and said other female) is NOT realistic.


Trends
-Orihime is being ignored by Ichigo?
-Orihime is compared to every female in the vicinity. O.o --> A fan/shipping trend instead of one in the manga.

Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable? <-- please specify

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify

[Hurley]

Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable? <-- please specify

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify

Just to put my thought on that part.

Leaves room for RenRuki?
I prefer it when as many ppl at the end are together, not always true but i feel as a fan its better when everyone goes home with a special someone. so i think the IchiHime and RukiRen is good if it was IchiRuk i cant see RenHime lol.
They are compatable?
i think even tho Rukia and Ichigo connect on one level they dont really connect on the others, they jsut argue alot but i think Orhime and Ichigo connect. first she def has feelings for Ichigo otherwise she wouldnt have almost kissed him (i know she didnt but i think her character and personality mean shes to shy for that kind of thing. Second for some reason i just imagine him and her together at home talking and even though she dosent speak up for her self Ichigo is the kinda guy who would stick up for her. where as rukia dosent need that.
Ichigo + Orhime has a deeper connection than IchiRuki
First he has known her longer and knows her habits etc.. such as her awful cooking taste etc. he is close to rukia but she seems a better fit to me.
Rukia + Renji has a deeper connection than IchiRuki
They knew eachother for Such a long time, renji and rukia have been friends since children in SS, and so they must have been together for sooo long since there adults now. Renji Deff liked rukia im sure he has said so at some point. Theres more but i need to read the part where they are kids again. Ill add to this later.


(just a note) alot of stuff i mentiond above is jsut opinion and how kubo has conveyed his point accross to me, other ppl interprite things differanly.

[Jasse]

This is may not be related to shipping, but i disliked Ichigo's attitude regarding Orihime in chapter 292, Orihime (the one they need to rescue, the girl who they have gone so far in HM for) has been set free by Tesla, Ichigo should have diverted atleast some of his attention to her and ask her (even if he knows that she's not physically hurt or harmed) if she's alright or not. I know I would have considered very nice if Ichigo has shown this nice gesture(which I know that some might consider insignificant but believe me, this type of consideration does make a difference and counts in relationships. I can only hope he somewhat redeems himself in the next chapter.

Ichigo ignoring his friends and proclaiming himself as the protector of all is nothing new, hopefully, his nakama help to show the error of his ways.
How? I dunno, Ichigo as he stands now in the manga has unrivaled potential and grows at an exceptional rate. He gets to fight the strongest adversaries and so forth, so it might be a natural that he somewhat ignores those who are weaker than him(Ishida, Chad, Orihime) and takes all the responsibility onto himself.

[Babbo]

already said this in bf but here goes:

Babbo thinks pairings in bleach that are Ich ix [insert person,place,vegetable, mineral,or what have you] shipping generally have little to no merit. Bleach is one of the most romantically vague mangas in running o,o Ichigo has made no concrete expression of feeling outside of the need to protect someone whether it be rukia, orihime, his family, etc. etc.. Ichiruki shippers have an even weaker stance ibo, cause Rukia hasn't made any direct expression of her feelings either, which is in complete contrast to orihime.

Still, it's kubo (despite his shojou reading ways) and babbo just has the feeling that he's never going to bother resolving it just like he's never bothered resolving/explaining any other number of things in bleach.

[spacecat]

OH believe me Ag.......... I am all for this thread. If ppl can keep it all in here I don't even plan to read it XD

Thanks for making it starwing.

[Starwing]

Yay, Jasse agrees-ish, at least with the trend.

@Hurley,
Unfortnately, this being a debate, evidence from the manga does make your arguments stronger. Otherwise, it can't be considered as valid as an argument with evidence.

I also want as many couples together at the end as possible. XD Except I want IchiRuki and IshiHime instead.

I will not put down that Ichigo and Rukia only argue and connect with each other on one level. I feel that is a negative opinion that support hasn't been shown for yet. I will not put down negative opinions unless sufficient evidence has been given. I will, however, put it in trends.

I feel like Ichigo and Rukia DO interact a lot without arguing. They have talked about plenty of serious issues. About Ichigo's mother, about Rukia's staying in SS, about Ichigo waiting for Rukia/Renji before heading off to HM, etc.

But this does bring up a question: Does Ichigo and Rukia ever just sit back and enjoy something together?
-If we look in the novels and omakes, there are many cases where Ichigo and Rukia can enjoy soba together, or even cook together.
-can anyone come up with anything else?

@Space, Babbo, Agmaster,
I expect lots of explosions from this. X.X It's almost inevitable. Hopefully, it won't get so bad that it implodes though...



Questions
1. Note trends concerning Orihime's interaction with Ichigo and comment on them.
-Orihime seems to be ignored sometimes, from subtle to not-so-subtle moments.
-Orihime is ignored even when she is endangered and subsequently released, being the one Ichigo is in HM to rescue. (Chapter 292)
-Ichigo seems to ignore everyone who is not powerful, not just Orihime. Happened with Chad and Mizuiro and Keigo and even Tatsuki.

2. Why is any girl next to Orihime competition for Ichigo's affections? Even when it is clear in many of those cases that a romantic relationship (between Ichigo and said other female) is NOT realistic.
-Orihime occasionally sets herself up to be compared because she is aware of the differences.

3. Ichigo and Rukia seem to fight a lot. Is it a trend that they interact mainly through arguing? What is beyond this?
-Ichigo and Rukia talk about serious issues seriously quite often.

4. Does Ichigo and Rukia ever enjoy something together, which is a bit part of any promising pairing?


Trends
-Orihime is being ignored by Ichigo? (see above)
-Orihime is compared to every female in the vicinity. O.o --> A fan/shipping trend instead of one in the manga.
-Ichigo and Rukia seem to interact mainly by arguing
-All pairing indications are vague and can be interpreted one way or another.


Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable: Orihime NEEDS Ichigo, Rukia doesn't. Ichigo's protective nature may be wasted on someone as strong as Rukia, but reach their full potential on someone like Orihime
-Knew each other earlier
-Ichig knows about Orihime's aweful cooking? <-- Needs evidence

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify
-Known each other much longer


Evidence
-Orihime likes Ichigo (chapter 237 <-- I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

-Renji likes Rukia (special chapter 0a/0b)

[Jasse]

thnx Starwing

Anyway, when it comes to Ichigo's over- protectiveness and its relation with X love interest.

I would talk here generally and not just in regard with Bleach, when a guy falls in love or began to develop some feelings for a one, he will begin to be over-protective over her whether she was strong or weak(related to shounen: strong or weak in the battlefield).

I mean Rukia has defeated Deiroy, that Desert creature, all before Ichigo eyes, and he has just received information from an Espada that she managed to put up good fight against an Espada(Ulq was impressed to a degree) and killed him. Despite all this, Ichigo freaked out and insisted on returning anyway.

What I mean in the end: that Strength or the lack of it might not be the only caliber to measure one's over-protectiveness(or the lack of it) to a another person(feelings, closeness,sense of duty, chivalrousnesses are other factors that should be taken into consideration.

[Babbo]

thnx Starwing

Anyway, when it comes to Ichigo's over- protectiveness and its relation with X love interest.

I would talk here generally and not just in regard with Bleach, when a guy falls in love or began to develop some feelings for a one, he will begin to be over-protective over her whether she was strong or weak(related to shounen: strong or weak in the battlefield).

I mean Rukia has defeated Deiroy, that Desert creature, all before Ichigo eyes, and he has just received information from an Espada that she managed to put up good fight against an Espada(Ulq was impressed to a degree) and killed him. Despite all this, Ichigo freaked out and insisted on returning anyway.

What I mean in the end: that Strength or the lack of it might not be the only caliber to measure one's over-protectiveness(or the lack of it) to a another person(feelings, closeness,sense of duty, chivalrousnesses are other factors that should be taken into consideration.

The problem with that line of thought is that's it's very typical for the main character in a shounen action manga to feel the need protect everyone. Ichigo is a poster boy of this trend and it's highly unlikely that it's connected to a romantic interest of his. His name spells it all out for gsakes o,o

[Starwing]

@Guildenstern,
^^' that's not really polite. We'll work out the evidence/support behind their arguments and opinions sooner or later. Let's ignore some of your post and carry on.

-Not needing protection is NOT a minus. Most of Kubo's successful characters, male and female, are strong and independent. I can name a handful of weak-willed characters and proportionally, they are not portrayed in a good light. Remind me if I've forgotten anyone significant. Hanataro, Rin, and Ururu are not portrayed too badly. However, Nemu and Hinamori's dependence on their respective men are portrayed as unhealthy, pitiful, and even disdainful. Whereas characters like Matsumoto, Yoruichi, Unohana, etc, are portrayed as strong and independent. From this, we can tentatively guess that Kubo approves of strong females.

@Jasse, Babbo,
I totally agree with Jasse about the over-protectiveness bit, though I haven't thought much about it.

Ichigo is overprotective by nature. However, his overprotectiveness of Rukia is given a note in the chapter where they go their separate ways. (Somebody give me the chapter, pretty please?) If Kubo had not put in the dialogue specifying that it was Rukia Ichigo was worrying about, I would've assumed he was worried about everyone. As the case turns out, he was not.



Questions
1. Note trends concerning Orihime's interaction with Ichigo and comment on them.
-Orihime seems to be ignored sometimes, from subtle to not-so-subtle moments.
-Orihime is ignored even when she is endangered and subsequently released, being the one Ichigo is in HM to rescue. (Chapter 292)
-Ichigo seems to ignore everyone who is not powerful, not just Orihime. Happened with Chad and Mizuiro and Keigo and even Tatsuki.

2. Why is any girl next to Orihime competition for Ichigo's affections? Even when it is clear in many of those cases that a romantic relationship (between Ichigo and said other female) is NOT realistic.
-Orihime occasionally sets herself up to be compared because she is aware of the differences.

3. Ichigo and Rukia seem to fight a lot. Is it a trend that they interact mainly through arguing? What is beyond this?
-Ichigo and Rukia talk about serious issues seriously quite often.

4. Does Ichigo and Rukia ever enjoy something together, which is a bit part of any promising pairing?


Trends
-Orihime is being ignored by Ichigo? (see above)
-Orihime is compared to every female in the vicinity. O.o --> A fan/shipping trend instead of one in the manga.
-Ichigo and Rukia seem to interact mainly by arguing
-All pairing indications are vague and can be interpreted one way or another.


Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable: Orihime NEEDS Ichigo, Rukia doesn't. Ichigo's protective nature may be wasted on someone as strong as Rukia, but reach their full potential on someone like Orihime
-Knew each other earlier
-Ichigo knows about Orihime's aweful cooking? <-- Needs evidence

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify
-Known each other much longer

IchiRuki
-Rukia doesn't need Ichigo's protection, being a strong and independent woman. This may (hasn't happened yet) distract Ichigo less during future fights.


Evidence
-Orihime likes Ichigo (chapter 237 <-- I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

-Renji likes Rukia (special chapter 0a/0b)

[Jasse]

The problem with that line of thought is that's it's very typical for the main character in a shounen action manga to feel the need protect everyone. Ichigo is a poster boy of this trend and it's highly unlikely that it's connected to a romantic interest of his.

I agree, the chances of what you're stating is true is higher than mine.

Unfortunately,
when both Chad and Rukia(notice that those who fell the are the closest to Ichigo, which is why I believe their falls in the battlefield were used as plot devices to measure Ichigo's famous outburst in chapter 270. Kubo is coy.

Chad fell, Ichigo has no information to whom(or how strong the enemy that defeated Chad is). but, in Rukia's case, he knew that Rukia managed to kill an Espada, but he still decided to return to her anyways.

Why didn't he return to Chad earlier? Is it possible that he trusts and consider Chad more powerful than Rukia? Rukia has just defeated an Espada, according to Ichigo's information and all what Ichigo knew about Chad's condition is that his reaitsu has dropped, acting on that little piece of information,he should head to Chad first and not Rukia.

I'm not sure if you get my point, since I'm not holding on to it greatly myself, but the fact that two of Ichigo closest friends are the ones who have fallen shows how coy of a mangaka Kubo is.

[Babbo]

I agree, the chances of what you're stating is true is higher than mine.

Unfortunately,
when both Chad and Rukia(notice that those who fell the are the closest to Ichigo, which is why I believe their falls in the battlefield were used as plot devices to measure Ichigo's famous outburst in chapter 270. Kubo is coy.

Chad fell, Ichigo has no information to whom(or how strong the enemy that defeated Chad is). but, in Rukia's case, he knew that Rukia managed to kill an Espada, but he still decided to return to her anyways.

Why didn't he return to Chad earlier? Is it possible that he trusts and consider Chad more powerful than Rukia? Rukia has just defeated an Espada, according to Ichigo's information and all what Ichigo knew about Chad's condition is that his reaitsu has dropped, acting on that little piece of information,he should head to Chad first and not Rukia.

I'm not sure if you get my point, since I'm not holding on to it greatly myself, but the fact that two of Ichigo closest friends are the ones who have fallen shows how coy of a mangaka Kubo is.


Cause he's used to rukia being weak, duh?

[Starwing]

@Babbo,
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you in this case.

Yes, Ichigo did think Rukia was weak. However, he also though Chad was weak. Against D.Roy, Ichigo totally shot down Chad's self esteem. He didn't let him join in at all. Although Chad gave him a punch before going to HM, and he knew of Chad's strength, doesn't he still think of Chad as weak?

Back in SS, Ichigo had little to no idea what Orihime could do. Yet, when he was questioned, he said; I'm not worried about Ishida and Inoue. They're both smarter than me. They won't get themselves in trouble. --> He wasn't over-protective then? Even though he never thought of Orihime as having any powers at all.

Ichigo did think Rukia was weak, but she subsequently destroyed D.Roy, froze GJ, and demonstrated her powers even more than Chad did. Mind you, Ichigo DOES likely think she is weak, but he hold the same opinion about Chad.


There is a fine line between interest and thinking someone is weak. Likely, when a man like Ichigo cares for someone, he thinks of them as needing more protection. It's a chicken and egg sort of problem. Does he think she is weak or does he care for her in a different way from Chad? I think it's a mix of both. But given that he logically knows Rukia's strength, I'm willing to put money on the latter being more prominent.

[Jasse]

Cause he's used to rukia being weak, duh?

Thats may be true(actually, I bet he regards all his friends as weak).

but,He's also not used to seeing Chad as being stronger than Rukia.
Ichigo's the one who "ditched" Chad for not being strong enough to handle the likes of Deiroy and told him to leave the battlefield,that Arrancar has been annihilated shortly after Rukia's arrival.

Notice, he brushed off Chad, but when Rukia came, he didn't brush her off as badly.

Ichigo has serious issues with all his nakama. (Should there be an Ichigo thread lol)

[Babbo]

@Babbo,
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you in this case.

Yes, Ichigo did think Rukia was weak. However, he also though Chad was weak. Against D.Roy, Ichigo totally shot down Chad's self esteem. He didn't let him join in at all. Although Chad gave him a punch before going to HM, and he knew of Chad's strength, doesn't he still think of Chad as weak?

Back in SS, Ichigo had little to no idea what Orihime could do. Yet, when he was questioned, he said; I'm not worried about Ishida and Inoue. They're both smarter than me. They won't get themselves in trouble. --> He wasn't over-protective then? Even though he never thought of Orihime as having any powers at all.

Ichigo did think Rukia was weak, but she subsequently destroyed D.Roy, froze GJ, and demonstrated her powers even more than Chad did. Mind you, Ichigo DOES likely think she is weak, but he hold the same opinion about Chad.


There is a fine line between interest and thinking someone is weak. Likely, when a man like Ichigo cares for someone, he thinks of them as needing more protection. It's a chicken and egg sort of problem. Does he think she is weak or does he care for her in a different way from Chad? I think it's a mix of both. But given that he logically knows Rukia's strength, I'm willing to put money on the latter being more prominent.

Not on nearly the same level as chad though. Not to mention that he just witnessed a rather larger improvement in chad and ishida's power. Froze GJ? ROFL for a couple seconds, fights in bleach have shown how a suprise attack will generally have a high chance of the attacks maximum success (in this case freezing GJ for a mere handful of seconds) babbo would hardly call that a measure of power. He said they're smart enough to not get in trouble not that he doesn't worry about them at all, there's a difference >.>

And no one has a real measure on rukias strength yet, the possible reasons she won the fight with the 10th espada are all too many and all to questionable, droy was a weakling (and if you mention how chad had trouble it's irrelevant what with chads enormous recent growth in power) and freezing gj is meaningless. So in the end it's more of a matter of his general impressions, Rukia WAS incredibly weak even compared to chad and additionally has a habit of getting in over her head so it's only natural that he'd be used to having to protect her more than others.

[Hurley]

Ok i know opinion isnt a stong reason for arguments but i was trying to show what i have picked up on. i dont care about the Ichigo Pairings, so im un biased but from the manga i feel that IchiHime is the one. now wait before you reply read what else i have to say. the posts from before were to show what i have percived from the manga. when Kubo writes his manga he is obviously trying to convey his thoughts and ideas across, i said everyone interprits it differantly but i as showing what i take from the manga. i wouldnt say that if it was a pairing i cared more about because then i would be very biased, however i know just opinion isnt everything. fact is much more important. but again i was just showing what one fan of he manga has picked up on. anyway later ill find some actuall facts to support this.

[Starwing]

@ Hurley,
I think general impression is just as important as evidence and hard fact in some cases. Because, after all, we'll all walk away from Bleach with general impressions and understandings. That's how most fans will view Bleach in the end.

It just doesn't help us a lot in a debate, because if everything you say can be refuted WITH actual evidence, that just gets us nowhere. Like I can say that my general impression is that IchiRuki will end up a pairing (which I can provide some evidence for) and I can say that my general impression is that IshiHime will end up paired (which I CAN'T put up reasons for). o.O So you won't see me arguing for IshiHime at all.


@ Babbo,
Ichigo only has a general impressions of Rukia's strength? It's strange because you provide such a logical, thought-based explanation about how Rukia is weak, but say that Ichigo is judging her strength based on impressions.

I would argue the opposite. If Ichigo thought about Rukia's strength, he would think she is weak, though strong compared to Chad. If Ichigo only felt Rukia's strength, he would think she is stronger than she actually is. Why? Because every time Rukia has done anything in front of him after the SS arc, Ichigo has been impressed. After D.Roy, Ichigo had the Chappy-talk where Chappy boasted about Rukia. During GJ's attack, Rukia saved him, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ichigo asked Rukia where she came by such a power.

Therefore, I would argue that if Ichigo subconsciously finds Rukia weaker than any of his other companions. Based on the decision of 5 corridors chapter. Then it is because he is specifically overprotective of her, not because Rukia has not shown him her strength many times over. She has, more so than Chad or Uryuu or even Renji. Or maybe it's because she's a girl, who knows?

[debbiechan]

LOL, Agmaster.

I fully support this thread, and Starwing's defining criteria for what influences the likelihood of a pairing happening is just ace.

I'll gather thoughts later--particularly as they are in flux right now with regards to every pairing except IchiRuki--and in the meantime, I'll elope with Agmaster. His sense of humor beats Kubo's these days. ^__^

[Jasse]

And no one has a real measure on rukias strength yet, the possible reasons she won the fight with the 10th espada are all too many and all to questionable, droy was a weakling (and if you mention how chad had trouble it's irrelevant what with chads enormous recent growth in power) and freezing gj is meaningless. So in the end it's more of a matter of his general impressions, Rukia WAS incredibly weak even compared to chad and additionally has a habit of getting in over her head so it's only natural that he'd be used to having to protect her more than others.[/QUOTE]


This is all very true, from a reader's point of view and not from Ichigo's.

What does Ichigo know?

1- He knows that Rukia recovered her powers, he also know before heading to
HM that Chad's arm was upgraded and he became more powerful than
before.

2- He knew that both of Rukia and Chad reaitsu dropped, he also knows from
a "trustworthy" medium that Rukia was able to kill an Espada and that Chad
wasn't able to defeat the enemy he faced.

What Ichigo doesn't know?

- Chad losing/being defeated by one of the more stronger Espada, an Espada
that is surely stronger than the one Rukia dealt with. he just sensed his
reaitsu dropping. He doesn't know that Chad became also stronger
(Arm of the Devil), hell, I don't think he gives Rukia the credit she deserves
either(her being excelled at Kidou/double incantation).


If i have two close friends, and I was given the choice to head to one of them first.

I know that one was able to kill his enemy and one who was not able to kill the enemy(mind you, I don't know the details of their fights, the power level of their adversaries, and all those details that pertains to luck and the sort.

I would probably head for the person who has not been able to kill his adversary since by that little of piece of information i have , he/she is a bit more deserving of my help.

This argument can go in endless cycles. For me, this is not a deciding factor for the Ichi/Ruki ship Ichigo's overall protective nature might not help or add to this point either.

IMO:
I'm not exactly a fan of the couplings in bleach(I find them entertaining to discuss though, although, I admit i find the Ichigo/Rukia relationship as the one that received the most mutual development so far(at least in comparison with the others).

[Starwing]

I'll have one of these on every page. Hope no one minds or think I'm double posting or anything... ^^'

Questions
1. Note trends concerning Orihime's interaction with Ichigo and comment on them.
-Orihime seems to be ignored sometimes, from subtle to not-so-subtle moments.
-Orihime is ignored even when she is endangered and subsequently released, being the one Ichigo is in HM to rescue. (Chapter 292)
-Ichigo seems to ignore everyone who is not powerful, not just Orihime. Happened with Chad and Mizuiro and Keigo and even Tatsuki.

2. Why is any girl next to Orihime competition for Ichigo's affections? Even when it is clear in many of those cases that a romantic relationship (between Ichigo and said other female) is NOT realistic.
-Orihime occasionally sets herself up to be compared because she is aware of the differences.
-Orihime is often in close proximity to Ichigo. <-- needs help explaining this one.

3. Ichigo and Rukia seem to fight a lot. Is it a trend that they interact mainly through arguing? What is beyond this?
-Ichigo and Rukia talk about serious issues seriously quite often.

4. Does Ichigo and Rukia ever enjoy something together, which is a bit part of any promising pairing?

5. Why do IchiHime shippers think Ichigo will/already does reciprocate Orihime's feelings? Preferably with manga evidence.

-#5 is in bold because debbie followed the format. Yay! And she said she was very, VERY curious. XD. If anyone desperately wants their question answered, I'll put it in bold and see if that helps.


Trends
-Orihime is being ignored by Ichigo? (see above)
-Orihime is compared to every female in the vicinity. O.o --> A fan/shipping trend instead of one in the manga.
-Ichigo and Rukia seem to interact mainly by arguing
-All pairing indications are vague and can be interpreted one way or another.


Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable: Orihime NEEDS Ichigo, Rukia doesn't. Ichigo's protective nature may be wasted on someone as strong as Rukia, but reach their full potential on someone like Orihime
-Knew each other earlier
-Ichigo knows about Orihime's aweful cooking? <-- Needs evidence

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify
-Known each other much longer

IchiRuki
-Rukia doesn't need Ichigo's protection, being a strong and independent woman. This may (hasn't happened yet) distract Ichigo less during future fights.
-Ichigo and Rukia are presented as more equal; and self esteem issues will not arise, despite Rukia's initial low self esteem.
-They have learned a lot from each other. Ichigo learned to be a soul-reaper and humility, and Rukia learned strength and interacting with people. <-- I need evidence if anyone can help me out here


Evidence
-Orihime likes Ichigo (chapter 237 <-- I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

-Renji likes Rukia (special chapter 0a/0b)



Current Discussion: Development and Trends
Whether Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia in general, or simply protective of all his friends. What implications does this have.
-Ichigo wanted to go save Rukia but not Chad
-Ichigo is used to Rukia being weak
-Ichigo has seen Rukia's strength (Chapter 235)

[Agmaster]

Don't I get a say in these things? Even if those sayings keep mysteriously vanishing.

Ooh ooh! I can contribute! Starwing, in answer to #2 it is simple. Even those who ship IchiRuki must admit that Orihime is viable for Ichigo if only by sheer continued proximity. This one is hard to explain, so I am going to wait and see if people understand me without me screwing it up with more words.

[Lady Scaper]

I am sort of surprised by there only being one merit to Ichiruki. I mean if they got together they wouldn't have to fill the gap for the other other partners self esteem issues like if Ichigo was paired with um.. another person, oh fine I wil say it. Orihime. Although I really like the girl I don't think she has enough self esteem to really be a benefit if there was ever relationship with Ichihime. I mean Orihime would be happy but I don't think Ichigo ultimately would be. It would sort of be a one sided relationship. Sorry. I would prefer it if in a relationship both of the partners were equals and if they did have any faults, they would make each other better. I know this sounds mean but I really don't see that in a Ichihime relationship. I don't see any mutual self improvement, just wish fulfillment. I would eventually get empty over time. (This is why I prefer Orihime with Ulqui. They could learn so much from each other.) Ichigo and Rukia have learned a lot from each other.

[Starwing]

@Ladyscaper
Lol, that's because I'm only adding things mentioned here on this thread in the tally. Otherwise, it'd be unfair, I'd overwhelm that list with the amount I'll add on IchiRuki. And we don't want that, do we? Yet. Muahahaha

@Ag
Oh yes, I think know exactly what you're talking about. And you picked one hard topic to explain. I'll wait for more explanation until I add that. ^^' Cuz I can't explain it either.

Proximity in terms of panel time. Orihime and Ichigo spends a LOT of time on screen together. Almost half of all the times we see Orihime, she is either thinking of Ichigo, or interacting with Ichigo. This love of hers is a big part of who she is.

Unfortunately, what is a lot of panel time for Orihime is not a lot of panel time for Ichigo. Although Ichigo DOES spend a lot of time with Orihime's around, he spends even more either thinking about or interacting with Rukia. I don't have the patience to go count but if somebody counts, I think Orihime comes in second though.

So I'd say you're right, but what is viable from Orihime's point of view may not be the same as viable from Ichigo's point of view.

Er... that is what you're talking about, right?

EDIT: Especially in the recent chapters. It's been happening more and more since after SS. So I'd say this is a more recent trend? And because it's more recent, it stays in people's minds more.

[Agmaster]

It is. She's always close by, through implication or actual 'screen time', so it almost seems natural to pair those two off. That's an actual point I missed, comparing their perceptions. After all, she notices everytime she is near him, he takes it for granted. Ugh, that actually hit close to home. Must've purposefully ignored it until now.

[debbiechan]

I encourage everyone to look at the debate from multiple angles, not just their own. Look at it from literary standpoints, from marketing aspects, from evidence in the manga, from simplified facts, from trends and the history the couples share, compatability, future prospects, etc.

Hear, hear. I've heard lots of impressions, subjective takes, and unorganized opinions. Hell I've given those. I've also heard a lot of ad hominems (attacking the other party instead of the argument--this includes "you are deluded if...." and "THOSE people will continue to see what they want to see..)" I'm one of those rare birds that doesn't mind character-bashing (e.g. Ileenka and Jenni have no qualms about putting down Orihime WILDLY; I adore Orihime, but an insult to a fictional character isn't an insult to me--I adore Ileenka and Jenni and Wicked Liz and lots of Orihime bashers! :D Saying you hate a fictional character isn't the equivalent of saying you hate someone's mother, in my book )

Now, I will like to go on the record as stating that I've heard much pro-IchiRuki arguments, a good deal of "shipping is futile/Ichigo doesn't care for anyone/this is shounen and there's no romance" argument" but I've heard very little actual argument, short of some of Nocturne's posts, from the IchiOri side. What I have heard is a lot of answering questions with questions or "it's implied" (without saying why or how the pairing is implied) and rebutting sarcasm.

Now, I've got nothing against sarcasm. If Ileenka wants to make anti-Orihime jokes or Nocturne or manfan want to put down certain fans with sarcasm, have a sense of humor people. Have some self-esteem and don't take their words as personal, intimate offenses. Nocturne said something somewhere about having a NY sense of humor. Maybe it's cultural, because I'm Jewish and I'm used to hanging around boys who don't go all sensitive because someone insulted their favorite baseball team, but jokes are just jokes and people shouldn't get all up in the air about them.

I will try to keep a tally of the evidence provided for both sides.


Good luck. So far I've seen interesting character observations made but not anything has been put in the form you asked for! :D But having seen you participate in discussions like this elsewhere, Starwing, kudos for focusing on the argument instead of the issue of "why can't we like what we like and just all get along?" Well, do'oh, this is a free country, and while people can believe what they want, it is always interesting to see why they believe the way they do.

So, before I write about what pairings I like, why I think they will or will not happen (some of my favorites--Aizen/Ulquiorra, e.g., have no shot in Hell :cry), I am very VERY curious as to why IchiOri fans believe that Ichigo does return Orihime's feelings or that he will return them. I want evidence from the manga to support those beliefs. I've heard a few but maybe I'm missing something. I won't respond or argue with any of the answers now--I just want to hear them--unsullied by personal attacks on shippers. Jokes are fine--but be careful with sarcasm because irony doesn't always come across on the internet.

As for Ag's point about Orihime having a chance with Ichigo merely by proximity, I would have to agree with this. People in the same elevator have a better chance of getting together than people on opposite sides of the planet. But one has to take into consideration who the people are. Trap me in an elevator with my cousin Joe, and well.... it just ain't gonna get romantic. Make that a non-relative who looks like Renji and we're talking. Make it Renji with a PhD and a mind like Ishida's and I'm all his. So you see what I mean? Compatibility, previous attitudes towards the potential partner, physical appearance--these are all factors. Physical appearance isn't a shallow criteria--it truly figures into the equation. For example, I believe that the mere fact that Nell looks a little like Ichigo's mom to be a biiiig deterrent to any possible relationship there.

[Agmaster]

That's just it, deb. To Orihime (atleast in the past) Ichigo is the ideal and thus compatible by default. Since we deal with some of the series from her perceptions we start to hear her bias, thus accepting IchiOri.

We as a collective, not as me.

[ShuiMei]

Oh you know I wouldn't be able to stay away, I love me some discourse, so delicious. Whenever we get into it here it always ends up getting closed or cut-off, hopefully things turn out better here and I can go on for as long as I like LOL Getting straight to it...

On compatibility in regards to Ichigo and Rukia:
Hurley brought up that Rukia doesn't need Ichigo to defend her while someone like Orihime does. I consider this to be a positive thing in regards to Ichigo and Rukia, Ichigo is always fighting, always protecting, he has a very heavy weight resting on his shoulders, what I think is so wonderful about his relationship with Rukia is that she does not want to add to that burden. Rukia can stand on her own and has no desire to impose herself on Ichigo, not that I think Orihime does, as I think Orihime too wants to be helpful and not be a burden, but Rukia has been adamant about not wanting or needing Ichigo's help from the very beginning (see: Parakeet chapters, after being impaled by Grimmjow, and most recently, the split in Hueco Mundo). This partially due to her own sense of pride, and partially due to the fact that he has enough to deal with; she doesn't want to be one more person on his list to protect.

I don't necessarily think that Orihime "needing" Ichigo is a good or healthy thing either. Orihime should be able to be independent from Ichigo, to find value in herself. So much of who she is is defined by her affections towards Ichigo, and so far as I'm concerned this is not healthy or good for anyone, especially not an insecure young girl like Orihime.

Anyway, I don't think that because Rukia can stand on her own independent of Ichigo that she is somehow less compatible with Ichigo, if anything this independence illustrates to me how they are more compatible. Does Ichigo need someone who needs to be protected or does Ichigo need someone who can stand on their own and look out for him?

In regards to Ichigo's own apprehension to splitting up and his overprotectiveness of Rukia, I honestly would not have thought much of it either had Kubo not mentioned that Ichigo was worried about Rukia in particular. Rukia's own reaction was that Ichigo's behaviour was unusual, and if we look back to early chapters we may understand why, as prior to Soul Society Ichigo, while still worried about Rukia, had enough faith to let her go at things alone (see: Parakeet chapters again), they fought alongside each other. We can taken into consideration that these enemies are much stronger now but with that we must also take into consideration that back then Rukia had very little of her powers and in Hueco Mundo, Rukia's in top form.

Let's also take note of Ichigo's own observations of Rukia's power post-Soul Society in 235, as Starwing points out, Ichigo's own words were "that's some crazy power, when did you get that kind of..." Clearly, Ichigo was impressed, that should provide some reasonable foundation in believing that Ichigo has recognized Rukia's power and does not think of her as weak.

If Ichigo has become more worried about Rukia despite her being stronger than ever before then is it really a matter of it being caused by Rukia because she's too weak, or is it because something in Ichigo himself has changed? I push for the latter, whether or not this change is due to his recent reluctance to trust in his friends on the battlefield or because of other (possibily romantic?) factors, I don't know, but I will put forward that it's a change that has occurred in him and not in her.

[Starwing]

We need more IchiHime posters. XP I can pretend to be one, but in the end, I'll seem biased anyway.

@Ag,
I don't get your post. T-T... If we're viewing it from Orihime's perspective, shouldn't we be less convinced? Because Orihime doesn't think she's strong enough for Ichigo, and she isn't optimistic about their future at all, as far as I can see. Why would viewing it from Orihime's perspective make it more likely?

@Debbie,
Whee! Actually, I think I've heard some pretty solid arguments from IchiHime's side of things. I just can't quite remember who wrote them.

And don't you dare mention that Nell is like Masaki. I'll die. If Masaki was anything like Nell, and Isshin being Isshin, they would've had far more than 3 children. 8 is more likely.

But actually, I always thought Freud had some merit when it comes to the Oedipus concept. He's a sick, sick old man, but we do see that girls look for traits in men they see in their fathers and guys look for traits in women that resemble their mothers. Statistically, it is so. Nurture vs. Nature and whatnot. So by that argument, I actually think Orihime is a lot like Masaki. But I don't think this works out as an actual, workable argument.

@ShuiMei,
Gosh, I don't even know where to start adding with your post. ^^' I knew you'd be here. Let's see...

[ShuiMei]

Sorry! I need to learn how to be more concise, I'm too used to reiterating my points over and over again, to "bring the message home," I blame university.

Essentially:
- Rukia can stand independent from Ichigo and does not want to add more to the weight he carries (that doesn't mean he'll stop worrying about her, but she will keep him in check and look out for him)
- Orihime apparently "needs" Ichigo; I question whether or not this is a good thing. Orihime has self-esteem issues, I don't think depending too much on one person is a good thing, especially in terms of validation and self-worth.
- that Rukia doesn't need protection shouldn't be looked at as a bad thing, or something that makes her incompatible with Ichigo. Ichigo has a lot going on in his life, that there's someone like Rukia who is looking out for him and trying to help relieve him of this pressure should be thought of as a positive thing

- Ichigo trusted a weakened Rukia to take care of herself prior to Soul Society; post-Soul Society Rukia is stronger, more capable than before; Ichigo is aware of that; however, is somehow more worried than before; Rukia herself regards this behaviour as unusual
- I put forward that this concern is not rooted in the idea that Ichigo thinks Rukia is weak, but that something in Ichigo himself has changed

Ooh, but what is the nature of this change? DON DON DON! You know I don't think anyone is in love with anyone so I'm not going to say that Ichigo is in love with Rukia but I will say that the dynamics of the relationship between Ichigo and Rukia are changing.

LOL, does that help?

[Shadoblak]

Okay this is probably a bad idea but I wanna know what people think...I was cleaning my room and happened upon Bleach volume 5.
The poem for this volume is something like
Unless I pick up the sword I can't protect you
While I hold the sword, I can't embrace you
Now, given everything thats happened, could this poem refer more to Rukia or Orihime? Any ideas?

[Starwing]

@ShuiMei; Your first one was good! It just said quite a bit and I didn't know how to add it all up. It's hard to strike up a debate right now, but ah well. I'm sure when something happens in the manga or anime, this will liven up.

@Shadoblak, truthfully, I can't remember what happened in volume 5 at all. I have no idea if that poem is supposed to represent that particular part of the story, or if it stretches over to the present arc. So far, based on arguments on either side, it doesn't seem like Ichigo has the desire to embrace anyone, so it's anyone's guess who or what the poem refers to.



Questions
1. Note trends concerning Orihime's interaction with Ichigo and comment on them.
-Orihime seems to be ignored sometimes, from subtle to not-so-subtle moments.
-Orihime is ignored even when she is endangered and subsequently released, being the one Ichigo is in HM to rescue. (Chapter 292)
-Ichigo seems to ignore everyone who is not powerful, not just Orihime. Happened with Chad and Mizuiro and Keigo and even Tatsuki.

2. Why is any girl next to Orihime competition for Ichigo's affections? Even when it is clear in many of those cases that a romantic relationship (between Ichigo and said other female) is NOT realistic.
-Orihime occasionally sets herself up to be compared because she is aware of the differences.
-Orihime is often in close proximity to Ichigo. <-- needs help explaining this one.

3. Ichigo and Rukia seem to fight a lot. Is it a trend that they interact mainly through arguing? What is beyond this?
-Ichigo and Rukia talk about serious issues seriously quite often.

4. Does Ichigo and Rukia ever enjoy something together, which is a bit part of any promising pairing?

5. Why do IchiHime shippers think Ichigo will/already does reciprocate Orihime's feelings? Preferably with manga evidence.

6. Unless I pick up the sword I can't protect you
While I hold the sword, I can't embrace you
is the poem found in Bleach volume 5. What could this mean? Based both on what happens in volume 5 and what has happened recently, who does the 'you' refer to? Rukia, Orihime, or even Ichigo?

-#5/6 is in bold because debbie followed the format. Yay! And she said she was very, VERY curious. XD. Shadoblak also really wants the answer to 6. If anyone desperately wants their question answered, I'll put it in bold and see if that helps. Please answer!


Trends
-Orihime is being ignored by Ichigo? (see above)
-Orihime is compared to every female in the vicinity. O.o --> A fan/shipping trend instead of one in the manga.
-Ichigo and Rukia seem to interact mainly by arguing
-All pairing indications are vague and can be interpreted one way or another.


Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable: Orihime NEEDS Ichigo, Rukia doesn't. Ichigo's protective nature may be wasted on someone as strong as Rukia, but reach their full potential on someone like Orihime
-Knew each other earlier
-Ichigo knows about Orihime's aweful cooking? <-- Needs evidence

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify
-Known each other much longer

IchiRuki
-Rukia doesn't need Ichigo's protection, being a strong and independent woman. This may (hasn't happened yet) distract Ichigo less during future fights. She may also lessen Ichigo's load and stand beside him rather than behind him.
-Ichigo and Rukia are presented as more equal; and self esteem issues will not arise, despite Rukia's initial low self esteem.
-They have learned a lot from each other. Ichigo learned to be a soul-reaper and humility, and Rukia learned strength and interacting with people. <-- I need evidence if anyone can help me out here


Evidence
-Orihime likes Ichigo (chapter 237 <-- I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

-Renji likes Rukia (special chapter 0a/0b)



Current Discussion: Development and Trends
Whether Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia in general, or simply protective of all his friends. What implications does this have.
-Ichigo wanted to go save Rukia but not Chad
-Ichigo is used to Rukia being weak
-Ichigo has seen Rukia's strength (Chapter 235)

Current Discussion: Development and Trends
Orihime's difficulty in communicating with Ichigo lies in the fact that he (along with Uryuu and perhaps a few others) has only a basic understanding of her.
-Orihime shows a happy-go-lucky face to her companions, so that is what they believe of her. She also portrays herself as fragile and someone to be protected.
-Ichigo underestimates Orihime partly because she does not refuse his protection. This may have caused her to fall in a certain category: the victim he must protect. While this may be romantic, the people Ichigo does form a bond with have pushed back and let him know that they don't need his protection, that they want to stand beside him.

[Agmaster]

Ah, but Starwing, you are missing the most important part of seeing the world from her eyes. We naturally empathize. Atleast in the barest amount, on a subconcious, we are able to put ourselves in these characters' shoes. At least...I am. That's why I can enjoy a series so much.

[Babbo]

Let's also take note of Ichigo's own observations of Rukia's power post-Soul Society in 235, as Starwing points out, Ichigo's own words were "that's some crazy power, when did you get that kind of..." Clearly, Ichigo was impressed, that should provide some reasonable foundation in believing that Ichigo has recognized Rukia's power and does not think of her as weak.



Of course he'd think it's crazy after only having seen heir shoot of nothing more than a couple low level kidou >.>

Even then that wouldn't stop him from subconsciously having developed the need to protect her after having done so for so long <.<

[Starwing]

@Babbo,

Do you have any concrete evidence that Ichigo still views Rukia as weak?

Shumei's provided the exact chapter and phrase when Ichigo admitted Rukia's strength. We've also compared Rukia's demonstration of strength and Chad's. So at least we know on a logical, conscious level that Ichigo knows Rukia is strong enough, most likely stronger than Chad. What goes on in his subconsciousness is anyone's guess. What I'm saying is, what convinced you that Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia in particular because she is weak, and not because of other causes?

If you don't, then I'm afraid we'll get repetitive very soon. And we'll have to leave the subject before too many people gets sucked in.

[ShuiMei]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Ichigo would have a subconscious need to protect Rukia after her being powerless for so long, but I cannot help but to bring up the earlier chapters where he trusted Rukia to go handle the hollows while he took care of Karin (Parakeet chapters). Rukia did get beat around a bit in the fight, with Ichigo calling her on it when he arrived, but recall their dialogue:


"Don't try to be cool when you're all beaten up, didn't you say that you wouldn't mess up and cause me to worry?!"

" Idiot! Only someone who's at least a little worried would say a line like that!"

"Heh.. that's true too!"

By his own admission, Ichigo was not particularly worried. He let her take care of things, sure there was some unease, but he ultimately trusted her. Looking back on the early chapters, Ichigo never treated Rukia like someone he had to protect, she was constantly there by his side while he fought and she was a vital presence in every battle for him, after all this was the early "mentor" stage of their relationship.

It was only once she was taken away from him that she had become someone who needed saving. She became someone he wanted to protect after time, not because of her lack of powers, but because of who and what she meant to him. Nothing Ichigo did early on illustrated to me that he thought Rukia was weak, he did not take on the job as shinigami because she was weak, he took on her responsibilities because she was no longer capable of fulfilling them.

Look at how their relationship started, it was a partnership, an agreement between two people, Ichigo didn't have to protect Rukia from the get-go, if anything it was her saving his ass. Ichigo hasn't forgotten that and I doubt Rukia has either, which is why despite Ichigo's monstrous power and growth, there is still a sort of equilibrium between them. So when Ichigo questions Rukia's capability, takes responsibility for her own injuries, and worries, as Rukia noted in 248, uncharacteristically for her own safety, it should be recognized that things are not the same as they used to be, this is not how things always were: something has changed within Ichigo.

[Lady Scaper]

Ooh I am actually liking this debate. I am just not a fan of bashing the characters. ShuiMei, I love the way you think. I can't be an Ichiori shipper but I can at least try to think of ways that Orihime could I dunno, have some personal growth so she would be a more suitable girlfriend for Ichigo. (Although I think Ichigo and Rukia are meant to be).

First I think despite their love and care for Orihime many people underestimate her. Ichigo and Ishida don't think she is up for fighting. Uruhara knowing that she did have have mucho important skills tried to emotionally scare her out of fighting by using his knowledge of the Orihime's weak self esteem. (Uruhara's approach only works on people with low self esteem, since people with healthy self esteem would think Uruhara is just a jerk). Orihime confided in Rukia and Rukia knew/realized that Orihime is worthy member of the team and didn't need to be protected or sit on the sidelines. Aizen kidnapped her knowing that Orihime is a worthy asset. An asset that Ichigo and co- understimated. Ulquiorra admires Orihime for her inner strength (in some chapter just after kidnapping, Ulquiorra privately muses that Orihime is a strong woman). So right now in the manga just based on charcater comments, Orihime seems to underestimate herself, Uryuu underestimates her (in the SS arc he said she was not cut out for fighting). The rest of the gang seems to iginore her or aren't aware of the magnitude of her value in a fight. (I dunno about Chad I would love it if people found some evidence either way).

Aizen recognizes her value, which is why he kidnapped her. Rukia recognizes her value since she took Orihime to the training grounds because in her mind Uruhara was a jerk and what he said isn't true. Ulquiorra admires her and values her as a person and strategically with her skills (regardless how much he tries to deny it, he did comment how impressed he was with her healing ability on those 2 dismembered shinigami). Uruhara realizes how important her skills are.

Dosen't it seem like something is off kilter, if the man that Orihime is all gaga over (Ichigo), and her own self esteem don't seem to realize her value as a team member (at least)? Not to mention the rest of the gang.

I think Ichigo will only notice her in any romantic sense once she deals with her self esteem (I privately think Ulquiorra can help her out in that department since Orihime deserves a lot better then waiting around for a guy to notice her. She deserves a guy who will admire and pay attention to her and right now Ulquiorra sadly only fits the bill, there should be more guys but there don't seem to be.). I think once Ichigo sees some another person appreciate Orihime for what she is, he may realize what he's been missing and he could care about her too in a romantic sense or at least realize Orihime is an equal and worthy of being treated like an equal rather then a weakling. Or maybe he decides Ulqui isn't any good for her and tries to fight him again. *shrugs*

Now, for Ichigo I don't think he has really noticed anybody because he has this whole hero thing and school. Study or save the town. Study or save the town. So I don't think he has really had much room for romantic thoughts about anyone (at least not consciously), so a part of me does not blame him for not seeing that Orihime has feelings for him, after all he is known for being a little dense sometimes. Another part of me feels either way he should deal with it, either let her down easy or tell her he's not ready or he loves her with all his heart. Something, because it sort of seems like is unknowlingly leading her on and that's not nice. Orihime deserves better then that. Every time I htink of Orihime I think of poor Eowyn from LOTR. At least she does find her true love in the and and realizes it wasn't Arrogorn after all. (And Arrogorn was nice, he let her down easy).

Oh and I wanted to add, that it seemed that Ichigo barely knew Orihime before the manga started. In volume 2 I think Rukia asks him if he knows her well and he just says he knows a little about her since she is a friend of Tatsuki's, so I don't think there was a deep friendship going on before the story started.

Okay, now I have to go to bed and I probably won't be able to post until Thursday. I hope I made sense.

[Ros]

I hope it’s okay for me to jump in here. (.___.)/ I’d like to do a writeup on my favorite pairing according to the form on the first page, because it seems like a fun exercise, but it’ll take me forever to cut it down to postable length finish it.

I do think people underestimate Orihime, Lady Scaper, and you bring up a good point. This part caught my eye:

First I think despite their love and care for Orihime many people underestimate her. Ichigo and Ishida don't think she is up for fighting. Uruhara knowing that she did have have mucho important skills tried to emotionally scare her out of fighting by using his knowledge of the Orihime's weak self esteem. (Uruhara's approach only works on people with low self esteem, since people with healthy self esteem would think Uruhara is just a jerk). Orihime confided in Rukia and Rukia knew/realized that Orihime is worthy member of the team and didn't need to be protected or sit on the sidelines. Aizen kidnapped her knowing that Orihime is a worthy asset. An asset that Ichigo and co- understimated. Ulquiorra admires Orihime for her inner strength (in some chapter just after kidnapping, Ulquiorra privately muses that Orihime is a strong woman). So right now in the manga just based on charcater comments, Orihime seems to underestimate herself, Uryuu underestimates her (in the SS arc he said she was not cut out for fighting). The rest of the gang seems to iginore her or aren't aware of the magnitude of her value in a fight. (I dunno about Chad I would love it if people found some evidence either way).

In her own way Orihime's almost as inscrutable as Ulquiorra--not to us, but to the other characters. The way she presents herself is meant to make sure no one worries about her or questions whether or not she's okay. Everything is supposed to be sunshine and donuts in her world, and a large part of her problem is that she doesn't understand how her fear of putting herself forward is separating her from the people she wants to connect with. It's understandable that her friends have taken away exactly the impression she wanted to give them, but unfortunately it's backfired, and now not only are they worried about her, but they see her as too delicate to risk bringing her into the fray. I don't think she's realized that yet.

Orihime was upset that she couldn’t drag Ichigo out of his funk when Rukia was in Soul Society, but what I think she fails to understand about Ichigo (and speaking from the “introverted person” perspective I’ve been guilty of forgetting this) is that he’s not a mind reader. Ichigo is capable of pretty keen flashes of insight, but they typically don’t come from watching people do one thing and extrapolating what they’re actually feeling from that. He can’t really be faulted for taking her at face value when the direct approach that works so well on Ichigo is so alien to Orihime’s nature that she’s more likely to worry about whether or not she’s imposing on him than if she’s having an effect. We’ve seen Orihime be determined, angry, stoic, defiant, and shrewd (and incredibly resilient when faced with violence despite the conversation about her not being able to handle it). All Ichigo’s seen is what she’s chosen to show him, and so his impression of her starts and stops at her being a nice girl who lost her family, doesn’t deserve any hardship, does well in school, and is maybe a little dizzy--he really hasn’t seen any more of her than we had at the beginning of the series. She doesn’t seek him out just to talk to him, and her sideways glances and lingering looks are lost on him. And so while she’s desperate to be considered a member of the team, and to stand beside Ichigo without being a burden, her lack of honesty stifles that.

Orihime sticks in the minds of people she’s been honest with, but while Ichigo cares about her as his friend, she’s never shown him enough of her actual personality for him to develop an interest in the person she is--it’s made her the perfect exercise for his defender complex. It also smothers any stronger connection that might otherwise have already developed between them. Ichigo’s already done to her what he tried to do to his other friends by holding her at arm’s length, telling her “Stand back, little lady, I’ll handle this,” and presenting himself as the one who will take care of anything that threatens her and tell her everything will be all right. Which sounds very classically romantic until you look back and everyone Ichigo has been open with and who he seeks out to interact with himself are either people who he never felt the need to protect or who pushed back and refused to let him box them into that category, telling him, “No, we’ll stand beside you, not behind you” until he got the point. He forgets Orihime until she’s in danger. As harsh as it sounds to say it about both Ichigo and her, she’s done nothing else to retain his interest. Grimmjow brought that up to him--he really does pass her over as soon as he's sure she's not in immediate danger, and he did it again this chapter.

[Alucard]

Ichigo is asexual

end of....

This is the debate section so a bit more is needed for this post. Can you add some more, like which instances in the manga gives you this impression?

- FH

[Starwing]

@Ag,
So you're saying... that readers view things from Orihime's perspective, but without her pessimism or her understanding? Isn't that the same as... sympathizing with a character? Because you like and sympathize with Orihime, you believe that her romance will work out?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but if I am, I'm afraid sympathy doesn't convince me of anything. ^^'


@Alucard, FH beat me to it, but support? I can't add your opinion into anything unless you can support it.


@ShuiMei; Ooh! I forgot about that! Ichigo thinking Rukia is weak is not a recent thing. However, Ichigo being overprotective of Rukia is. So obviously, something has changed, and it is not only Ichigo thinking of Rukia as being progressively weaker because that makes no sense at all.

And also, in that chapter (if you can't tell yet, I'm horrible with chapters) where Ulquiorra informs Ichigo that Rukia has died, did Ichigo seem like he was acting from sub-consciousness or instinct? No. He turned quietly and was prepared to walk away. From what I understand of Ichigo, that's a sign that he's thinking quite clearly. I think he logically knows about Rukia's strength, he is also logically aware of what he was doing in that chapter because he exhibits no sign of instinctive lashing out, etc.

When Ulquiorra told him of Orihime's crisis though, that is when Ichigo acted on instinct and anger. Not before. So Ichigo is instinctively protective, but when he wanted to go back for Rukia, that did not look like instinct based on everything we've been shown about Ichigo. Therefore, it can't be Ichigo subconsciously believing Rukia is weak. He needs to logically think she's weak, which we've proven he doesn't, and therefore, the logical conclusion is that he was motivated by something else. His turning back for Rukia is out of character, and obviously something's changed in his thinking.

@Ros and LadyScaper,
I added your discussion to the list thingy. Great break-downs. Unfortunately, so far this thread has been a little bit one-sided. We only have Babbo arguing for open endings, Alu saying Ichigo is asexual, and Hurley and Ag (actually, Ag is so deep I can't understand him half the time :P)

Hopefully, we'll soon find a subject everyone can join in.



Questions
1. Note trends concerning Orihime's interaction with Ichigo and comment on them.
-Orihime seems to be ignored sometimes, from subtle to not-so-subtle moments.
-Orihime is ignored even when she is endangered and subsequently released, being the one Ichigo is in HM to rescue. (Chapter 292)
-Ichigo seems to ignore everyone who is not powerful, not just Orihime. Happened with Chad and Mizuiro and Keigo and even Tatsuki.

2. Why is any girl next to Orihime competition for Ichigo's affections? Even when it is clear in many of those cases that a romantic relationship (between Ichigo and said other female) is NOT realistic.
-Orihime occasionally sets herself up to be compared because she is aware of the differences.
-Orihime is often in close proximity to Ichigo. <-- needs help explaining this one.

3. Ichigo and Rukia seem to fight a lot. Is it a trend that they interact mainly through arguing? What is beyond this?
-Ichigo and Rukia talk about serious issues seriously quite often.

4. Does Ichigo and Rukia ever enjoy something together, which is a bit part of any promising pairing?

5. Why do IchiHime shippers think Ichigo will/already does reciprocate Orihime's feelings? Preferably with manga evidence.

6. Unless I pick up the sword I can't protect you
While I hold the sword, I can't embrace you
is the poem found in Bleach volume 5. What could this mean? Based both on what happens in volume 5 and what has happened recently, who does the 'you' refer to? Rukia, Orihime, or even Ichigo?

-#5/6 is in bold because debbie followed the format. Yay! And she said she was very, VERY curious. XD. Shadoblak also really wants the answer to 6. If anyone desperately wants their question answered, I'll put it in bold and see if that helps. Please answer!


Trends
-Orihime is being ignored by Ichigo? (see above)
-Orihime is compared to every female in the vicinity. O.o --> A fan/shipping trend instead of one in the manga.
-Ichigo and Rukia seem to interact mainly by arguing
-All pairing indications are vague and can be interpreted one way or another.


Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable: Orihime NEEDS Ichigo, Rukia doesn't. Ichigo's protective nature may be wasted on someone as strong as Rukia, but reach their full potential on someone like Orihime
-Knew each other earlier
-Ichigo knows about Orihime's aweful cooking? <-- Needs evidence

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify
-Known each other much longer

IchiRuki
-Rukia doesn't need Ichigo's protection, being a strong and independent woman. This may (hasn't happened yet) distract Ichigo less during future fights. She may also lessen Ichigo's load and stand beside him rather than behind him.
-Ichigo and Rukia are presented as more equal; and self esteem issues will not arise, despite Rukia's initial low self esteem.
-They have learned a lot from each other. Ichigo learned to be a soul-reaper and humility, and Rukia learned strength and interacting with people. <-- I need evidence if anyone can help me out here


Evidence
-Orihime likes Ichigo (chapter 237 <-- I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

-Renji likes Rukia (special chapter 0a/0b)



Current Discussion: Development and Trends
Whether Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia in general, or simply protective of all his friends. What implications does this have.
-Ichigo wanted to go save Rukia but not Chad
-Ichigo is used to Rukia being weak
-Ichigo has seen Rukia's strength (Chapter 235)
-Ichigo is not convinced but Rukia's demonstration
-Ichigo's overprotectiveness is recent. He has changed.

Current Discussion: Development and Trends
Orihime's difficulty in communicating with Ichigo lies in the fact that he (along with Uryuu and perhaps a few others) has only a basic understanding of her.
-Orihime shows a happy-go-lucky face to her companions, so that is what they believe of her. She also portrays herself as fragile and someone to be protected.
-Ichigo underestimates Orihime partly because she does not refuse his protection. This may have caused her to fall in a certain category: the victim he must protect. While this may be romantic, the people Ichigo does form a bond with have pushed back and let him know that they don't need his protection, that they want to stand beside him.

[Alucard]

I just dont see any chemistry between Ichigo and any of the girls. Sure he cares for them, but not in a romantic way :/

[kushina]

^ Then why are you in the IchiHime FC?

[Babbo]

@Ag,
So you're saying... that readers view things from Orihime's perspective, but without her pessimism or her understanding? Isn't that the same as... sympathizing with a character? Because you like and sympathize with Orihime, you believe that her romance will work out?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but if I am, I'm afraid sympathy doesn't convince me of anything. ^^'


@Alucard, FH beat me to it, but support? I can't add your opinion into anything unless you can support it.


@ShuiMei; Ooh! I forgot about that! Ichigo thinking Rukia is weak is not a recent thing. However, Ichigo being overprotective of Rukia is. So obviously, something has changed, and it is not only Ichigo thinking of Rukia as being progressively weaker because that makes no sense at all.

And also, in that chapter (if you can't tell yet, I'm horrible with chapters) where Ulquiorra informs Ichigo that Rukia has died, did Ichigo seem like he was acting from sub-consciousness or instinct? No. He turned quietly and was prepared to walk away. From what I understand of Ichigo, that's a sign that he's thinking quite clearly. I think he logically knows about Rukia's strength, he is also logically aware of what he was doing in that chapter because he exhibits no sign of instinctive lashing out, etc.

When Ulquiorra told him of Orihime's crisis though, that is when Ichigo acted on instinct and anger. Not before. So Ichigo is instinctively protective, but when he wanted to go back for Rukia, that did not look like instinct based on everything we've been shown about Ichigo. Therefore, it can't be Ichigo subconsciously believing Rukia is weak. He needs to logically think she's weak, which we've proven he doesn't, and therefore, the logical conclusion is that he was motivated by something else. His turning back for Rukia is out of character, and obviously something's changed in his thinking.

@Ros and LadyScaper,
I added your discussion to the list thingy. Great break-downs. Unfortunately, so far this thread has been a little bit one-sided. We only have Babbo arguing for open endings, Alu saying Ichigo is asexual, and Hurley and Ag (actually, Ag is so deep I can't understand him half the time :P)

Hopefully, we'll soon find a subject everyone can join in.


rofl nice job twisting words. Actions influenced by the subconcious don't have to be blurry or instinctive. Babbo used the word to point out that he still thinks of rukia as weak despite seeing her fighting, he instinctively thinks that Rukia is still weak. That's not going to affect how he takes action, but rather what action he decides to take -.-;;

Babbo's not sure why the concept is hard to grasp for some people. It's pretty common thing really. Lets say a kid starts cleaning his room on his own and becoming responsible for himself, now lets say he's been doing it for a couple months straight . His mom still tells him to go and clean his room because she's used to him not doing it. It's purely irrational for her to do it, but she does it anyways because she's used to having to do it. Same deal with ichigo.

@Babbo,

Do you have any concrete evidence that Ichigo still views Rukia as weak?

Shumei's provided the exact chapter and phrase when Ichigo admitted Rukia's strength. We've also compared Rukia's demonstration of strength and Chad's. So at least we know on a logical, conscious level that Ichigo knows Rukia is strong enough, most likely stronger than Chad. What goes on in his subconsciousness is anyone's guess. What I'm saying is, what convinced you that Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia in particular because she is weak, and not because of other causes?

If you don't, then I'm afraid we'll get repetitive very soon. And we'll have to leave the subject before too many people gets sucked in.

rofl do you have any concrete evidence that ichigo is being protective out of love? That question is such a cop out. Pretty much anything involving ichigo's feelings towards rukia or orihime are of a high speculative nature, that chapter quote for example is perfectly open to interpretation, just as babbo said when it was brought up -.-;;

[Marionette]

Again, how do you know that's how Ichigo feels? His decision to go help her is something like "go clean your room...oh wait", he was sure of what he was doing. And no, Ichigo wasn't used to protecting Rukia. She took care of herself most of the time pre-SS...he bailed her out like, once, and that's because she was consciously trying to delay the enemy so Ichigo can send Karin home; they both expected that. She has been quite capable of both staying alive and doing her part of the job with absolutely "looking after" from Ichigo - it was the other way around actually.

Contrarily, Ichigo was saved by Rukia twice despite of her lack of power, and he is VERY conscious of it. Even their dialog in SS (on the bridge) shows that neither of them is used to the scenario of Rukia "just go hide in the corner and cry 'help me'!"

[Jasse]

@ Starwing:

If you're looking a trend in the discussion between Ros and Lady Scraper and its somewhat related with the earlier subject.

Both Orihime and Rukia wanted to show that they are independent from Ichigo, Orihime has vowed the next time they meet, she's gonna fight alongside him, Rukia doesn't want to add to his already existing burden and wants to prove to be a capable fighter,especially after being subjected to a long state of helplessness and having to be rescued by Ichigo.

Rukia has been more adamant and more active in instigating a "change" in Ichigo's thoughts than Orihime is(regarding the issue of independence and equality) for the time being.

[Starwing]

@Alucard,
Chemistry varies depending on the reader. Would is be possible for you to point out scenes from the manga that convinces you? It will still be subjective, but then we'll know where you're coming from.


@Babbo, you know? I was reading that post over and I thought the same thing. ^^' That I was twisting words, I mean.

However, concerning my question, you are answering a question with a question. Which is technically against the rules. XP As for your question, do we have concrete evidence that Ichigo is being over-protective out of love?

Romantic love? Of course not. Like you said, everything is circumstancial. Love? That ought to be obvious.

How I followed the discussion is as follows:
-Side 1 pointed out Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia.
-Side 2 pointed out Ichigo is overprotective of all his friends.
-Side 1 pointed out instances where Rukia is singled out as being someone Ichigo is especially overprotective of.
-Side 2 pointed out that Ichigo thinks of Rukia as weak (weakest?)
-Side 1 compared Chad and Rukia in particular and pointed out that Ichigo has seen Rukia's strength over and over.
-Side 2 pointed Rukia's demonstration of strength is superficial, and Ichigo still subconsciously thinks of Rukia as weak.
-Side 1 asks if there is manga evidence that Ichigo 'subconsciously' thinks of Rukia as weak.
-Side 1 points out that Ichigo's overprotectiveness is a recent development, whereas Rukia has always been weak. Side 1 asks what changed.

Going into Ichigo's subconscious is also a cop-out. Because that is a gray area where we know nothing about. Why are you convinced Ichigo views Rukia as weak? We've demonstrated why we think Ichigo knows of Rukia's strength and is still overprotective? You were the first one to walk into an area where there is no manga evidence. It is not a cop-out to ask for manga evidence at any time. If you cannot provide it, just say that you can't provide it, just like we've admitted it.


@Jasse,
hm... you're right. Should I combine them then? The list has gotten long... I'll put them in spoilers starting next page.

[Babbo]

@Alucard,
Chemistry varies depending on the reader. Would is be possible for you to point out scenes from the manga that convinces you? It will still be subjective, but then we'll know where you're coming from.


@Babbo, you know? I was reading that post over and I thought the same thing. ^^' That I was twisting words, I mean.

However, concerning my question, you are answering a question with a question. Which is technically against the rules. XP As for your question, do we have concrete evidence that Ichigo is being over-protective out of love?

Romantic love? Of course not. Like you said, everything is circumstancial. Love? That ought to be obvious.

How I followed the discussion is as follows:
-Side 1 pointed out Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia.
-Side 2 pointed out Ichigo is overprotective of all his friends.
-Side 1 pointed out instances where Rukia is singled out as being someone Ichigo is especially overprotective of.
-Side 2 pointed out that Ichigo thinks of Rukia as weak (weakest?)
-Side 1 compared Chad and Rukia in particular and pointed out that Ichigo has seen Rukia's strength over and over.
-Side 2 pointed Rukia's demonstration of strength is superficial, and Ichigo still subconsciously thinks of Rukia as weak.
-Side 1 asks if there is manga evidence that Ichigo 'subconsciously' thinks of Rukia as weak.
-Side 1 points out that Ichigo's overprotectiveness is a recent development, whereas Rukia has always been weak. Side 1 asks what changed.

Going into Ichigo's subconscious is also a cop-out. Because that is a gray area where we know nothing about. Why are you convinced Ichigo views Rukia as weak? We've demonstrated why we think Ichigo knows of Rukia's strength and is still overprotective? You were the first one to walk into an area where there is no manga evidence. It is not a cop-out to ask for manga evidence at any time. If you cannot provide it, just say that you can't provide it, just like we've admitted it.


@Jasse,
hm... you're right. Should I combine them then? The list has gotten long... I'll put them in spoilers starting next page.

Babbo was pointing out the flaw in asking for concrete evidence on ichigo's feelings >.>

Side 1 speculated that ichigo is over protective of rukia. They still have no real understanding of ichigo's true motives <.<

How is speculating that ichigo is acting like a normal (flawed) human being a cop out? He still thought of chad and ishida as weak. Babbo doesn't see why he shouldn't think that rukia is too, after all she was considerably weaker than either them for a while and as of now is undoubtedly weaker than either of them <.<

[Starwing]

@Babbo,

Babbo was pointing out the flaw in asking for concrete evidence on ichigo's feelings >.>

I don't understand where the flaw is. I will answer any question posed to me truthfully, and if I cannot answer it, I will say I cannot answer. I will also admit if I read over my own arguments and found them weak. This is the honesty and humility that will make a debate work, and be respectful and enjoyable to all who reads or participates in it. If you want to comment that the question isn't fair, answer it and then comment. Otherwise, it just looks like you are dodging the question. Which you still haven't answered.

So again: Do you have evidence for believing Ichigo subconsciously thinks Rukia is weak? Or is that just your gut feeling?

This is a fair question. If you have evidence, it should be out on the table. If you don't, it is only speculation and should only be considered as such. We speculate that Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia because he cares for her, and we are trying our best to supply manga scenes, lines, dialogue to support our opinion. You should be made to do the same. It can't always be us pointing out new evidence and you critically rejecting them, that results in an unequal debate. We are not trying to convince you. We are trying to share ideas and evidence, whereas you are only sharing an opinion without very much support. Why is it wrong to ask for evidence?


Side 1 speculated that ichigo is over protective of rukia. They still have no real understanding of ichigo's true motives <.<

Of course we don't. That's why it's speculation. However, neither do you. And therefore you should be trying to supply evidence just like we are.

How is speculating that ichigo is acting like a normal (flawed) human being a cop out?

First, speculating that Ichigo to act like a normal, flawed human being is absolutely fine. But you weren't speculating about how he acts. You were speculating about his subconscious.

Then, it's a cop-out because you speculate on things both you and us have absolutely no evidence for and you know it. You know neither of us can supply concrete evidence to indicate either way. For the purpose of a debate, I would ask you to focus on things we can support.

He still thought of chad and ishida as weak. Babbo doesn't see why he shouldn't think that rukia is too, after all she was considerably weaker than either them for a while and as of now is undoubtedly weaker than either of them <.<

Does he? Where does it demonstrate that Ichigo still thinks of Chad and Uryuu as weak? Can I ask for evidence?

The subject of Rukia's strength IS subject to doubt. I would personally rank Rukia as weaker than Uryuu but stronger than Chad.

And based on everything you have said here, I would ask: if Ichigo thinks of Rukia as being just as weak as Chad or Uryuu, why did he not worry about Chad and Uryuu when they separated into the 5 paths? Why did he not go back for Chad when Chad fell?

See, your logic seems to only work if Ichigo thought of Rukia as the WEAKEST. And we do have several pieces of evidence that demonstrates that Ichigo definitely doesn't think Rukia is the weakest.

Heh... you don't have to answer all of my questions. Some of them are obviously rhetorical. Just the bolded one. Though it would be wonderful if you can answer all of the questions. XD

[ShuiMei]

Side one has reason to believe that Ichigo is over protective of Rukia given that in chapter 248 he was reluctant to split up because he was concerned for Rukia's safety. Never did I say that he was concerned for her safety because he's in love with her or because he has romantic feelings for her, I do not believe in either of those statements, what I did was simply contest the idea that he has always viewed her as weak and therefore, took on the responsibility of protecting her.

To be perfectly honest, had I not just re-examined the early chapters and the dynamics of their relationship then I probably would have been inclined to agree with you, Babbo, that Ichigo is simply used to protecting her. However, after a closer look, like I said, nothing Ichigo did early on demonstrated to me that he felt he had to protect Rukia because she was now weakened. Again, I am not saying that Ichigo is in love with Rukia, or that he is starting to develop romantic feelings for her, though it's possible, at best what I am putting forward is that Ichigo has changed.

A completely plausible and non-pairing explanation for Ichigo's change in behaviour towards protecting Rukia could be looked at in a general manner, recently, he's been trying to protect everyone. Here it doesn't have to be about weakness and affection.

Nevertheless, one can also look at this change in behaviour and perceive that Ichigo has been particularly protective of Rukia. Look at how he took on responsibility for her injuries in 214 and again, how he did not want to split up because he was worried about Rukia. These are specific instances when Rukia is singled out, despite Ichigo a) trusting in her abilities beforehand b) not being demonstratively worried about her in battle beforehand and c) recognizing that she now has her powers back and that they are formidable in their own right.

Moreover, Ichigo's initial understanding of Rukia's weakness was due to the fact that she was without her powers, now that Rukia's powers have returned, that understanding of her weakness must have changed; which means his need and motivation to protect her has changed. To look at it simply, she's become someone he wants to protect, regardless of whether or not she has her powers or not. I think this is essentially what Rukia has been having problems with since she's returned, the dynamic they had beforehand has changed without her really realizing it.

Prior to Soul Society, Ichigo never had this dire need to protect her. Even when he went to Soul Society, it was about saving her from death, it had nothing to do with her physical weakness: it had to do with something he outwardly viewed as his responsibility, that he could not let her die for crimes she committed to save himself. Rukia did not need saving in Soul Society because she was lacking in physical prowess, she needed saving in Soul Society because she committed crimes, took responsibility for her actions, and was resigned to her death. When Ichigo et al. are asked why they're fighting to hard to save Rukia does anyone say "because she's weak?" No, of course not, because it's not about that, it's about owing a debt, righting a wrong, saving someone who has changed his life and stopped the rain from falling, etcetera, etcetera, blah blah blah...

So from this we can then conclude that Ichigo's motivations in saving or "protecting" Rukia from death in Soul Society was not because she was weak.

Essentially what I've been trying to say is that Ichigo, when he took on Rukia's responsibilities, was not obligated to protect her, she did not ask that of him, or expect him to, what she wanted was him to fulfill her duties. That's why she was able to fight alongside him early on with little to no objection, that's why he wasn't really worried about her in chapter 10, because what they did not have from the beginning was a relationship of "the protector and the protected." What they had was a mentorship (Rukia teaching and guiding Ichigo) which evolved into a partnership: this is why I feel your analogy about the mother and the son doesn't work, because Ichigo was not really protecting Rukia until late/post-Soul Society.

So if, prior to Soul Society Ichigo was not protecting Rukia despite her being weak, and during Soul Society Ichigo was saving Rukia because she was going to die, and it had nothing to do with her weakness, then clearly something has changed post-Soul Society in that suddenly Ichigo now feels compelled to protect and feel responsible for an empowered Rukia.

You know, if anything, one could argue that after fighting so hard to save her from death in Soul Society, Ichigo would naturally be hesitant to let her face the insanely powerful Arrankar in Hueco Mundo; however, I press on, it's not about weakness. I don't think anyone is really contesting that Rukia was weak beforehand and/or that Rukia is still weaker than Ichigo now, what people are pointing out is that this never effected them beforehand. It didn't matter that Rukia was weaker than Ichigo, she was still fighting alongside with him, he was not compelled to worry or to protect her, and he was fine with her going on her own: this is no longer the case.

Anyway, I think I've exhausted myself on the subject, are any other topics out there? XD

[Marionette]

Babbo was pointing out the flaw in asking for concrete evidence on ichigo's feelings >.>

Side 1 speculated that ichigo is over protective of rukia. They still have no real understanding of ichigo's true motives <.<

How is speculating that ichigo is acting like a normal (flawed) human being a cop out? He still thought of chad and ishida as weak. Babbo doesn't see why he shouldn't think that rukia is too, after all she was considerably weaker than either them for a while and as of now is undoubtedly weaker than either of them <.<
That was my point though: you think she is weak for her lack of power (that's your understanding, no more - if not less, solid than Starwing's). But her lack of power never made her a burden pre-SS; she was capable and tactical and didn't need much even that much protection from Ichigo (who have very strong protective instincts naturally).

[Babbo]

That was my point though: you think she is weak for her lack of power (that's your understanding, no more - if not less, solid than Starwing's). But her lack of power never made her a burden pre-SS; she was capable and tactical and didn't need much even that much protection from Ichigo (who have very strong protective instincts naturally).

That's cause she was having ichigo do all the work and staying in the background -.-;;

Call that what you want, but that kinda stuff doesn't generally make people think your strong >.>

And you can't just push SS stuff aside. Ichigo spent a quite a bit of time and effort rescuing her, which is why it only seems natural to Babbo that he might think that she needs rescuing when she's in a dangerous situation, ie he's done it before so it's only natural he do it again <.<

[Marionette]

That's cause she was having ichigo do all the work and staying in the background -.-;;

Call that what you want, but that kinda stuff doesn't generally make people think your strong >.>

And you can't just push SS stuff aside. Ichigo spent a quite a bit of time and effort rescuing her, which is why it only seems natural to Babbo that he might think that she needs rescuing when she's in a dangerous situation, ie he's done it before so it's only natural he do it again <.<
SS count as once (also, she was in this situation half willingly, to save his life when he's lying on the floor and couldn't get up).

And Rukia saved Ichigo's ass three times at least, if you don't count in the sand monster. Ichigo had to do the work since Rukia lost her power saving his punk ass, because he intervened when Rukia could have taken cared of the hollow and he couldn't.

She wasn't fighting but she was always in the line of fire, she never needed him to shield her. And she wasn't fighting precisely because she know she can't, because she know she'll only get herself in trouble for him to save - that's a sign that she's smart enough to protect herself, thus doesn't need to be protected, if not "strong" power wise.

And no, all that saving his life makes you think she's weak, don't automatically assume Ichigo think the same thing.

[Babbo]

SS count as once (also, she was in this situation half willingly, to save his life when he's lying on the floor and couldn't get up).

And Rukia saved Ichigo's ass three times at least, if you don't count in the sand monster. Ichigo had to do the work since Rukia lost her power saving his punk ass, because he intervened when Rukia could have taken cared of the hollow and he couldn't.

She wasn't fighting but she was always in the line of fire, she never needed him to shield her. And she wasn't fighting precisely because she know she can't, because she know she'll only get herself in trouble for him to save - that's a sign that she's smart enough to protect herself, thus doesn't need to be protected, if not "strong" power wise.

And no, all that saving his life makes you think she's weak, don't automatically assume Ichigo think the same thing.

He wasn't a shinigami then (ie that's an extremely irrelevant example right now), the fight with the sand worm was fan service (just like droy) nothing more nothing less (if you don't believe that then take a look at the popularity polls and see where the people in the HM fit in there). Pfft and then ichigo went on to save rukia's emo martyist punk ass >.>

Rofl can you say that with 100% certainty that he doesn't? It's not like he has to say it out loud for him to believe it any level.

[Marionette]

He wasn't a shinigami then (ie that's an extremely irrelevant example right now), the fight with the sand worm was fan service (just like droy) nothing more nothing less (if you don't believe that then take a look at the popularity polls and see where the people in the HM fit in there). Pfft and then ichigo went on to save rukia's emo martyist punk ass >.>

Rofl can you say that with 100% certainty that he doesn't? It's not like he has to say it out loud for him to believe it any level.
Call it what you will, it happened in the manga ;) Rukia has her powers back and defeated formidable enemies, it's a fact, and what you said isn't. EDIT: Again, Rukia saving Ichigo: 3; Ichigo saving Rukia: 1. Does that mean Rukia should have more urge to protect Ichigo? What? Ichigo had no powers than? Guess who else didn? XD

Ichigo never said he wasn't in love with Kon, which doesn't make it 100% untrue, it just make it speculation with zero basis or support.

[Starwing]

Okay, we have several cases of debaters answering questions with questions. As spazzy as it sounds, it does NOT help. Just answer the question! Then we can move on.

@Babbo,
Before you criticize any more of the trends the opposing party has noted, can I ask you to give a few pieces of evidence of your own? Unfortunately, while I've always thought you are one of the most reasonable posters around, and you're still posting extremely reasonably, I feel that I cannot debate with you reasonably right now.

Because all you have done so far is post on why our evidence can be interpreted in other ways. You have not given any supporting detail on your own. That is grossly unequal and not what we're trying to promote.

Rofl can you say that with 100% certainty that he doesn't? It's not like he has to say it out loud for him to believe it any level.
Of course not. However, we can say with quite a bit more certainty than you can because we HAVE provided evidence. No matter that the evidence is iffy. It is still more than the opposite party has provided.

*Besides, if it's you, I'm definitely interested in what you can come up with.
**Is still eagerly waiting for Babbo to reply to her post. ^_____^


@Babbo and Marionette,
Such an amusing exchange. Can anyone bring in any new information? New perspectives? This is funny and witty, but can degrade into a fight very easily.


IMHO, it is an insult to the author to suggest they put anything in simply for the sake of fan-service.

Having a female lead defeat a prominent enemy after a many chapter long struggle is definitely not fan-service in my book. Kubo is also an author who has been SHOWN to put little hints together to form a new idea or change the direction of the story. Dismissing ANYTHING in this story, is not something I would do. Especially the strength-demonstrations of a female lead. Besides, even if it IS fanservice, Kubo is going to keep it up, so we must all adjust Rukia's strength up a notch, so we're not always taken off-guard or disappointed when she does well.

AND we are getting off topic. Whether Rukia's strength is fan-service or not does not matter. Ichigo doesn't know about fanservice. What matters is what HE thinks. Of that, we've only had people point out that he has admiration for Rukia's skill. We need RECENT evidence on the other side, that shows he still views her as weak.


__________________________________________________ __________
Questions
1. Note trends concerning Orihime's interaction with Ichigo and comment on them.
-Orihime seems to be ignored sometimes, from subtle to not-so-subtle moments.
-Orihime is ignored even when she is endangered and subsequently released, being the one Ichigo is in HM to rescue. (Chapter 292)
-Ichigo seems to ignore everyone who is not powerful, not just Orihime. Happened with Chad and Mizuiro and Keigo and even Tatsuki.

2. Why is any girl next to Orihime competition for Ichigo's affections? Even when it is clear in many of those cases that a romantic relationship (between Ichigo and said other female) is NOT realistic.
-Orihime occasionally sets herself up to be compared because she is aware of the differences.
-Orihime is often in close proximity to Ichigo. <-- needs help explaining this one.

3. Ichigo and Rukia seem to fight a lot. Is it a trend that they interact mainly through arguing? What is beyond this?
-Ichigo and Rukia talk about serious issues seriously quite often.

4. Does Ichigo and Rukia ever enjoy something together, which is a bit part of any promising pairing?

5. Why do IchiHime shippers think Ichigo will/already does reciprocate Orihime's feelings? Preferably with manga evidence.

6. Unless I pick up the sword I can't protect you
While I hold the sword, I can't embrace you
is the poem found in Bleach volume 5. What could this mean? Based both on what happens in volume 5 and what has happened recently, who does the 'you' refer to? Rukia, Orihime, or even Ichigo?

Note: -#5/6 is in bold because debbie followed the format. Yay! And she said she was very, VERY curious. XD. Shadoblak also really wants the answer to 6. If anyone desperately wants their question answered, I'll put it in bold and see if that helps. Please answer!


Trends
-Orihime is being ignored by Ichigo? (see above)
-Orihime is compared to every female in the vicinity. O.o --> A fan/shipping trend instead of one in the manga.
-Ichigo and Rukia seem to interact mainly by arguing
-All pairing indications are vague and can be interpreted one way or another.


Merits
IchiHime
-Leaves room for RenRuki? Lol.
-They are compatable: Orihime NEEDS Ichigo, Rukia doesn't. Ichigo's protective nature may be wasted on someone as strong as Rukia, but reach their full potential on someone like Orihime
-Knew each other earlier
-Ichigo knows about Orihime's aweful cooking? <-- Needs evidence

RenRuki
-Has a deeper connection than IchiRuki <-- please specify
-Known each other much longer

IchiRuki
-Rukia doesn't need Ichigo's protection, being a strong and independent woman. This may (hasn't happened yet) distract Ichigo less during future fights. She may also lessen Ichigo's load and stand beside him rather than behind him.
-Ichigo and Rukia are presented as more equal; and self esteem issues will not arise, despite Rukia's initial low self esteem.
-They have learned a lot from each other. Ichigo learned to be a soul-reaper and humility, and Rukia learned strength and interacting with people. <-- I need evidence if anyone can help me out here


Evidence
-Orihime likes Ichigo (chapter 237 <-- I think, correct me if I'm wrong)

-Renji likes Rukia (special chapter 0a/0b)



Current Discussion: Development and Trends
Whether Ichigo is overprotective of Rukia in general, or simply protective of all his friends. What implications does this have.
-Ichigo wanted to go save Rukia but not Chad
-Ichigo is used to Rukia being weak
-Ichigo has seen Rukia's strength (Chapter 235)
-Ichigo is not convinced but Rukia's demonstration
-Ichigo's overprotectiveness is recent. He has changed.

Current Discussion: Development and Trends
Orihime's difficulty in communicating with Ichigo lies in the fact that he (along with Uryuu and perhaps a few others) has only a basic understanding of her.
-Orihime shows a happy-go-lucky face to her companions, so that is what they believe of her. She also portrays herself as fragile and someone to be protected.
-Ichigo underestimates Orihime partly because she does not refuse his protection. This may have caused her to fall in a certain category: the victim he must protect. While this may be romantic, the people Ichigo does form a bond with have pushed back and let him know that they don't need his protection, that they want to stand beside him.

[tofudtift1986]

How can a scenes/panels/pages in the canon manga be considered fanservice when they served a specific purpose? And how can someone who isn't the creator of the manga declare something as such with absolute certainty? The only person who knows if it's fanservice, or not, is Kubo.

[Babbo]

Call it what you will, it happened in the manga ;) Rukia has her powers back and defeated formidable enemies, it's a fact, and what you said isn't.

Ichigo never said he wasn't in love with Kon, which doesn't make it 100% untrue, it just make it speculation with zero basis or support.

Facts are useless unless they can be used to prove a point beyond doubt, the reason why rukia won any of her fights is totally open to question (after all she caught two of her most recent opponents by complete surprise while they were toying with her ). Personally babbo thinks her zanpakutou doesn't wield the power of ice, but rather the power of fan service ;D

[Marionette]

@Babbo and Marionette,
Such an amusing exchange. Can anyone bring in any new information? New perspectives? This is funny and witty, but can degrade into a fight very easily.
Facts are useless unless they can be used to prove a point beyond doubt, the reason why rukia won any of her fights is totally open to question (after all she caught two of her most recent opp