right/wrong translation ?

[Michsi]

I have a question regarding the translation of chapter 247 ,page 12 ,last panel, where Rukia quotes her brother about allowing them to leave Soul Society, to come and help rescue Orihime. The first one I've read , I think translated by Ju-Ni said : "My orders were merely to bring you back!" implying that he is not breaking any rules by helping them and is doing it out of his own free will. However , the other version is:"Sending you off like this is only something I was ordered to do." which has a completely diffrent meaning. Somebody ordered him to help them? I guess only somebody who understands japanese and reads the raws could say which one is the right one? Anybody? Help?

[Rain]

I don't speak/readknow japanese at all, but i'm almost 100 positive that Ju-Ni's is right and that other version is completely wrong. Ju-Ni's fits with the context of the story and the character whereas that other one doesn't:D

[Syn]

Yeah, beside Ju-Ni is one of the most accurate teams. It's undoubtely Ju-Ni's version that is the best :p I've never read the other translation though :confused:

[spacecat]

I just looked at the chapter and I think Ju Ni's is correct. He says basically all I was ordered to do was to bring you back (as in to Soul Society).

[Guildenstern]

I've read about every scanslation group out there for Bleach (there's a lot...) and I read both raw and scanslation just about every month, and I can tell you Ju-Ni is as close to totally accurate as you're going to find. I'm not going to say Ju-Ni doesn't make mistakes, but it's pretty bang-on a vast majority of the time. They also do a fairly good job of rendering dialects and accents, and the phrases they pick for sentences that might have more than one meaning are apt and appropriate. Accurate translation whore gives it two thumbs up.

Also their site is convenient to download from, and they do special projects too. Manga Rain is another good one, but I like Ju-Ni's phrasing better. It's more nuanced. Also Pocketmofo over on Mangahelpers is one hell of a translator, but watch out for that other guy! He's really nice but his translations are kinda ehhhhh. ^^:

I don't recommend M7 at all. Steer clear. See my sig for a good example why. XD There's also another scanslation group (whose name I don't rememeber orz) that's also pretty bad. They shuffled the entire dialogue for certain chapters....when I can remember their name I'll edit my post, LOL. XD

[Michsi]

I thought ju-ni was the right to, but I wanted to make sure. Actually the reason I needed confirmation was that yesterday when I was browsing wikipedia with no particular purpose (i do that sometimes) I came across the artical about Byakuya and started reading it when I saw "However, Byakuya secretly allows Renji and Rukia to return to the human world to assist in Orihime's rescue,[2] but insists that he is acting on orders from another to give them aid.:" Since I only knew of the Ju-ni version I figured it was a mistake and fixed it. But today when I looked up the artical again , it was changed back to the "other version". I just wanted to make sure I'm not the one who's insisting on the wrong thing :D
Anyway thanx :)

[Guildenstern]

I thought ju-ni was the wright to, but I wanted to make sure. Actually the reason I needed confirmation was that yesterday when I was browsing wikipedia with no particular purpose (i do that sometimes) I came across the artical about Byakuya and started reading it when I saw "However, Byakuya secretly allows Renji and Rukia to return to the human world to assist in Orihime's rescue,[2] but insists that he is acting on orders from another to give them aid.:" Since I only knew of the Ju-ni version I figured it was a mistake and fixed it. But today when I looked up the artical again , it was changed back to the "other version". I just wanted to make sure I'm not the one who's insisting on the wrong thing :D
Anyway thanx :)

No problem on my end, and I know that Space-tama and Syn are both really devoted to promoting good translation groups too. They both work hard to provide correct sources and groups.

When you're dealing with the transfer of artistic or literary works from one language to another, it's really important to strive for accuracy and precision. One of the biggest issues a translator deals with is the effort to keep their personal bias from colouring the translations they do, and to accurately present the thoughts and feelings the author is trying to convey. If you feel a translator, translation group or information resource isn't doing that, it's important for the veracity of the author's original work to start doing some detective work!

Asking people for help is the right idea always if you're not sure. ^^b

[Syn]

Oh, don't bother with Wikipedia/Bleach. It's often updated with wrong translations/information AND people insist that it's the right thing. Meh.

[chbimun]

Oh, don't bother with Wikipedia/Bleach. It's often updated with wrong translations/information AND people insist that it's the right thing. Meh.

I agree. The Bleach Wiki on wikipedia is the biggest source of misinformation and gross inaccuracies. It's also decidedly biased toward certain pairings even often going as far as reinventing the alphabet to justify it. "R" comes before "O" yes.

I come across the same problems when translating to/from Spanish. If you ask someone who was raised in Mexico to translate something, you'll get a different translation had you asked someone in Central America, South America or Spain.

I'd assume the same would hold true for Japanese even if the percentage of people speaking the language is much smaller than Spanish. You'll get a different interpretation from a native speaker than someone who learned it as a second or third language. Heck even among native speakers you'll get cultural variances in the translations.

[Michsi]

When you're dealing with the transfer of artistic or literary works from one language to another, it's really important to strive for accuracy and precision. One of the biggest issues a translator deals with is the effort to keep their personal bias from colouring the translations they do, and to accurately present the thoughts and feelings the author is trying to convey. If you feel a translator, translation group or information resource isn't doing that, it's important for the veracity of the author's original work to start doing some detective work!

Agreed. Especially since that particular line gave us Byakuya-fans something to :D about and that other version sorta ruined it(at least for me it did) I just read your sig and man :eek:....

Anyway I have a lot of respect for those who scanlate in general (a lot of work that sometimes lacks the appropriate amount of appreciation ) and a lot more for those who , as you said "strive for accuracy and precision". I really like Ju-Ni's work , more so that they are, as far as I know, the only group that does volume scanlation with those in-between chapter doodles from Kubo that I love so much :D

And of course a huge amount of thanks to Syn and Space. :)

Oh, don't bother with Wikipedia/Bleach. It's often updated with wrong translations/information AND people insist that it's the right thing. Meh.

I agree. The Bleach Wiki on wikipedia is the biggest source of misinformation and gross inaccuracies.

I know , I know ,but I can be unhealthily stubborn about certain things but only when I'm positive that I'm right. Oh well *goes of to correct article*

*2 minutes later* Ack ,somebody did it before me ....

[Rain]

wiki isn't that bad. Even though it does sometimes have a few big details wrong, overall the info is usually pretty accurate

[tari101190]

i've noticed ju-ni translations are better. i've now downloaded the volumes which i could find by them, they're all HQ...although the single chapters are not HQ, they're more like LQ/MQ...when they release their next volume scan will it be HQ?

btw i like wikipedias info, it always seems tbe accurate to me...although i dn't get my info from there, i'm just saying when i check wikipedia it seems accurate to me.

[chbimun]

wiki isn't that bad. Even though it does sometimes have a few big details wrong, overall the info is usually pretty accurate

I agree. Some of the info is valid, but there's is definitely a bias. There was some wanky drama a few months back over the ordering of the cast list. Someone put it in alpha order, and then someone changed it to to be Ichigo & Rukia listed as the first two then alpha order. Someone corrected that and it went back and forth for a few weeks. This was done all in an effort to keep Orihime's name as far away as possible from Ichigo's name.

Kinda lame I think. I don't have anything against pairings, but wiki is not a place they should be justified. It should be a place for "factual" and "objective" information.

Anyway.... I switched to Ju-Ni's translations after Szayel's release chapter. I hated the way another group "interpreted" the release name to keep it PG and kill the innuendo behind it.

[Jhaxe]

I prefer Manga Rain and Ju-Ni. I download the fastest ones first, but I always get the Ju-Ni chapters when they come out. They're just translated and phrased so much better. M7's translations annoy me personally. Their phrasing is really strange...

[twsl]

haha it's actually a bit funny as well =D at the moment there seems to be a editwar going on about what 'Sode no Shirayuki' means, one guy edits it to "sleeve of white snow" and the other guy edits it to "sleeve's white snow" when you think the editwar is over, somebody comes back and changes it again xD does anybody know which one is the best translation though? :X it's funny though that sometimes people are 100% certain of what they think is the right translation just because scanlationgroup X said that T_T;

[Gintoki]

Dunno what the correct term is but I'd go with "Sleeve's white snow"

Sleeve of the white snow would be "Shirayuki no Sode" in my opinion. It's always <owner> no <property> in the japanese grammar.

Shiro = White
Yuki = Snow
No = <particel of ownage>
Sode = Sleeve

[Lady Scaper]

I never knew there were edit wars going on in wikipedia. R before O that is funny.

[NeoSapien]

Well, currently the main characters are just listed in order of introduction. Also, Urahara is in the main characters list; he probably shouldn't be there.

[furato]

Well, currently the main characters are just listed in order of introduction. Also, Urahara is in the main characters list; he probably shouldn't be there.When main character status is based on how many chapters someone appeared in, I think Urahara makes the cut. Barely, though.

And to be on topic, I've always preferred Manga-Rain because, aside from liking their cleaning, I find usually they can convey the context of a sentence correctly. Sadly, I have no manga to pluck examples from right now.

[Guildenstern]

I have necrobumped this thread from the abyss to highlight a very serious translation error that was perpetrated by Ju-Ni from volume 199. Let's just say it was egregious enough that I felt like making a post about it to clear up some misconceptions held about this chapter that are incorrect. Very rarely do I find such....glaring errors in Ju-Ni's translation work, but upon getting hold of the raw to 199 tonight and reading it, believe me-- the error is HUGE and it makes a substantial difference in how the chapter is perceived.

First, let's compare the page in question side-by-side from three different sources: JP Raw, Ju-Ni and Manga-Rain. Click links to see the full pages.

JP Raw (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/13.jpg)

Ju-Ni (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/lolju-ni.png)

Manga-Rain (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/lolmangarain.png)

EDIT: A demonstration of why you should not read M7: The same page--
M7 (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/lolM7.jpg)


Anyone with even the most...basic grasp of hiragana and a JP dictionary, upon seeing the JP Raw and then reading the Ju-Ni translation can see that the Ju-Ni translation is HORRIFICALLY incorrect and the Manga-Rain translation is the vastly more correct of the two. What Matsumoto is trying to say to Orihime is not that she is unique to Ichigo in her own way as the Ju-Ni translation states, but rather that she is brave and 'cool' for standing up to her feelings of jealousy towards Rukia and not running away or being overwhelmed by them.

To break it down to simple text-based differences:

JP Raw: "Anta soushite...jibun no omoi tokoro chanto uketomeyou to shiteru ja nai"
Ju-Ni: "But you're unique in the same way to him"
Manga-Rain: "At least you're confronting it and dealing with it on your own!"
Um, hello? Ju-Ni? What on earth? While the Manga-Rain translation is not how I would have phrased it and still leaves something to be desired (IMO), it's still LEAGUES ahead of the Ju-Ni translation in conveying the import of this scene to the reader.

Given the inaccuracy of the above (a general inaccuracy which is indicative of the accuracy of the rest of the chapter, I just picked the most glaring example) which is NOT what I have come to expect from Ju-Ni given their track record of generally correct translations, I gotta say for now you need to stick with Manga-Rain to avoid getting the wrong idea. The fact that Ju-Ni has let this...grossy inaccurate translation stand in their batch download of the manga volumes is a bit disturbing to me.

/takes off srs bzns hat
Now I return to my usual uselessness. :3

[debbiechan]

wow. That's a stunning error. And completely changes my reading of the manga. I'd ALWAYS believed that Matsumoto told Orihime that she was just as important to Ichigo as Rukia. At my most biased, I thought Matsumoto was being overly-kind and lying (because to me, Orihime doesn't mean as much to Ichigo as Rukia and this was NOT in keeping with Matsumoto's straight-up character) but I'd finally decided that this was Matsumoto being wise and foreseeing that Orihime WOULD matter to Ichigo as much.

To find out that she never said such a thing.

Woo.

And I like Matsumoto praising Orihime here for facing up to the facts. It's what me the old lady would do if trying to comfort an angsting teenager. I'd say hey, you're confronting your feelings instead of trying to fight them--good for you!

[Kolbertt]

For some reason, I cannot find myself comfortable with Ju-Ni's translation, I prefer M7 over any scanlation team. Sure, they have a very irregular pace, but they make it up with visual quality (They DO have HQ releases after all :P).

But sometimes, it's hard to know who is right. Few days before, I was having this conversation with Watanukixxx (spelling?! :p) about Arro's abilites. According to M7, sunlight blocks all his abilities, while to Ju-Ni, sunlight merely destroys his facade... It's a substantial difference, and we have nothing to corroborate who is right...

For those who know no japanese at all (like me) it's almost a matter of fate, you stick to a scanlation group and hope they are correct. So far, M7 has not disapointed me (very minor spanish mistakes, Beluga =/= Verruga) but then again, there is no way for me to know where they made a mistake ...

[Guildenstern]

For some reason, I cannot find myself comfortable with Ju-Ni's translation, I prefer M7 over any scanlation team. Sure, they have a very irregular pace, but they make it up with visual quality (They DO have HQ releases after all :P).

But sometimes, it's hard to know who is right. Few days before, I was having this conversation with Watanukixxx (spelling?! :p) about Arro's abilites. According to M7, sunlight blocks all his abilities, while to Ju-Ni, sunlight merely destroys his facade... It's a substantial difference, and we have nothing to corroborate who is right...

For those who know no japanese at all (like me) it's almost a matter of fate, you stick to a scanlation group and hope they are correct. So far, M7 has not disapointed me (very minor spanish mistakes, Beluga =/= Verruga) but then again, there is no way for me to know where they made a mistake ...

M7 is horrible. Please don't read their translations, they're usually wrong 40% of the time, which is unacceptable.

Please see my sig for an excellent example of M7 translation abuse.

And I don't mean to be a drama queen about translations, but....as a person who loves books and loves language, I can't forgive a person who abuses the author/translator relationship to...twist another person's beloved work into something else just because of poor language ability or bias. There's very few things that can actually get me angry on the internets. This is one of them. That's why I posted the above-- to get the message out that a serious error had been made.

As of right now even though I find their phrasing kind of clunky, stick to Manga-Rain. Only read Ju-Ni if you have the ability to read JP raw and can see where errors are being perpetrated.

The email I'm writing about this could scour rust off a Camaro bumper. I guarantee it. :mad:

Edit:
wow. That's a stunning error. And completely changes my reading of the manga. I'd ALWAYS believed that Matsumoto told Orihime that she was just as important to Ichigo as Rukia. At my most biased, I thought Matsumoto was being overly-kind and lying (because to me, Orihime doesn't mean as much to Ichigo as Rukia and this was NOT in keeping with Matsumoto's straight-up character) but I'd finally decided that this was Matsumoto being wise and foreseeing that Orihime WOULD matter to Ichigo as much.
Completely incorrect. There's no line anywhere in the JP raw that implies any of what you just said whatsoever. I was shocked too. XD If you hear anyone repeating this fallacy, can you correct them, please? I cannot stand the idea of having this sham translation bandied about the internet as Kubo's own truth. Ugh.

Editedit: For an good corroboration for the correct translation of chapter 199, please view the Dattebayo fansub of the corresponding anime episode. You'll see it's saying pretty much the same thing as the Manga-Rain translation.

[Spirit]

*posting in defense of Ju-Ni's current translator*
i know i havent been with Ju-Ni long as a cleaner, but i just wanted to point out a few facts... Ju-Ni has been through quite a few translators in the past... V23 was translated by an old translator of theirs... i honestly dont know that person personally since they were not part of the staff when i started cleaning... only translator that i know of is BadKarma and the few other translators that work on the other projects outside of Bleach or do fill ins for BK when he cant translate the weekly...

anyhow... BK i believe has said once or twice that once we are caught up on gettin current volumes done and translation revision and what not to those, he does plan to retranslate all the past volumes that dont have his translations in them... i honestly couldnt say how long those fixes would take to be in place, but again to my knowledge BK has plans on doin that soo all translations will be consistent and hopefully not have those massive errors like that...

[Guildenstern]

*posting in defense of Ju-Ni's current translator*
i know i havent been with Ju-Ni long as a cleaner, but i just wanted to point out a few facts... Ju-Ni has been through quite a few translators in the past... V23 was translated by an old translator of theirs... i honestly dont know that person personally since they were not part of the staff when i started cleaning... only translator that i know of is BadKarma and the few other translators that work on the other projects outside of Bleach or do fill ins for BK when he cant translate the weekly...

anyhow... BK i believe has said once or twice that once we are caught up on gettin current volumes done and translation revision and what not to those, he does plan to retranslate all the past volumes that dont have his translations in them... i honestly couldnt say how long those fixes would take to be in place, but again to my knowledge BK has plans on doin that soo all translations will be consistent and hopefully not have those massive errors like that...

Wow, I really appreciate your response, thanks. :D If you'd let Mr. BadKarma know about this....incredible error I and I'm sure the rest of us who love Bleach who also love accurate translations would be most grateful to you. The translations from Ju-Ni recently with the exception of a few word mixups have all been pretty good, so you'll get no complaints from me if the current translator does a revision of past volumes.

In the mean time, if you could get the word out that that translation of that chapter is INCORRECT and will undergo revision, that would be awesome. *offers cookies and Goldschlaeger*

...If you see the guy who translated that volume that 199 is in, though, give him a swift kick in the balls from me. With love, of course.

Edit:
This was discussed heavily back when Rukia's zanpakutou was first displayed. The tricky part in this case is that the "no" character is written as furigana, not as a distinct particle, which drove translators crazy (I just spent half an hour rereading the old arguments over how it should read). That's why I always write it as "Sodeno Shirayuki". A friend of mine says that he would read it as "Sleeve of the White Snow", though he also says take it with a grain of salt since he doesn't really understand why it's written like that. chirachira said way back when to read it as either "White Snow's Sleeve" or "Snow White's Sleeve" (Snow White as in the fairy tale), either would work.

Oh Chirachira, you crazy gal.
And I always went with plain old 'White Snow Sleeve'. It's really really hard to translate effectively... but one thing I can tell you for sure though is that it's not referring to Snow White. XD

[Saffire]

Dunno what the correct term is but I'd go with "Sleeve's white snow"

Sleeve of the white snow would be "Shirayuki no Sode" in my opinion. It's always <owner> no <property> in the japanese grammar.

Shiro = White
Yuki = Snow
No = <particel of ownage>
Sode = SleeveThis was discussed heavily back when Rukia's zanpakutou was first displayed. The tricky part in this case is that the "no" character is written as furigana, not as a distinct particle, which drove translators crazy (I just spent half an hour rereading the old arguments over how it should read). That's why I always write it as "Sodeno Shirayuki". A friend of mine says that he would read it as "Sleeve of the White Snow", though he also says take it with a grain of salt since he doesn't really understand why it's written like that. chirachira said way back when to read it as either "White Snow's Sleeve" or "Snow White's Sleeve" (Snow White as in the fairy tale), either would work.

The only source I'd really 100% trust on the issue at this point would be the God of Translation, pocketmofo, but I don't know how to get a hold of him.

Interesting that Ju-Ni is considered more reliable nowadays. I quit reading them ages ago because they had major accuracy issues back around c200. (As Guildy just pointed out.) I may have to switch back. (Or I could get back to learning Japanese so I could do my own...) Edit: Ah, different translator. That makes sense.

Edit2@Guildy: Your avatar is win.

[Osmosis]

M7 is horrible. Please don't read their translations, they're usually wrong 40% of the time, which is unacceptable.

Please see my sig for an excellent example of M7 translation abuse.

So you can read Japanese but you hunt down scans from groups like JuNi and M7 just to point out inconsistencies and discrepancies? Wow, that's beyond sad and pathetic.

Why don't you translate Bleach if it bothers you to the point that it makes you a petty, pretentious prick? Seriously, getting so angry over something isn't healthy. Just do the scans yourself that way you can enjoy your own work and not subject yourself to these 'inferior' translations. You'd be doing all of us a favor. Trust me.

To JuNi and M7 and all the groups who bring us manga like Bleach, please ignore these delinquents. The vast majority of us are appreciative of all the hard work you do to bring us our favorite manga.

[Spirit]

Wow, I really appreciate your response, thanks. :D If you'd let Mr. BadKarma know about this....incredible error I and I'm sure the rest of us who love Bleach who also love accurate translations would be most grateful to you. The translations from Ju-Ni recently with the exception of a few word mixups have all been pretty good, so you'll get no complaints from me if the current translator does a revision of past volumes.

In the mean time, if you could get the word out that that translation of that chapter is INCORRECT and will undergo revision, that would be awesome. *offers cookies and Goldschlaeger*

...If you see the guy who translated that volume that 199 is in, though, give him a swift kick in the balls from me. With love, of course.

hee hee... just on my daily check here in hopes there might have been an early spoiler... b/c well, ya never know... lol...

ill let him know... but i have a feelin he already does... think that was big part of reason why he wants to redo the volume as a whole as i think there prolly is more than just that mistake on it... so he knows... pretty sure he knows... hee hee...
i cant say how quickly it will happen on the fix... as atm ya know the whole time crunch to translate weeklies then the rest of the week outside of RL he translates the volumes (atm on v29)... volumes with his name on the credits prolly way more accurate than the weeklies since he spends more time translating those...
as for other guy... well i think it was a girl *scratches head* not sure... soo dunno how effective a kick there would be... LOL.. besides would never do anythin like that anyhow... not in my nature... hee hee...

[Guildenstern]

So you can read Japanese but you hunt down scans from groups like JuNi and M7 just to point out inconsistencies and discrepancies? Wow, that's beyond sad and pathetic.

Why don't you translate Bleach if it bothers you to the point that it makes you a petty, pretentious prick? Seriously, getting so angry over something isn't healthy. Just do the scans yourself that way you can enjoy your own work and not subject yourself to these 'inferior' translations. You'd be doing all of us a favor. Trust me.

To JuNi and M7 and all the groups who bring us manga like Bleach, please ignore these delinquents. The vast majority of us are appreciative of all the hard work you do to bring us our favorite manga.

Oh, give me a break. Isn't it past your bedtime on a school night? So it's perfectly fine for people to misrepresent and mangle an author's work because they 'tried really hard' and worked on it? So, right now I can get on the internet, get a JP raw, scanslate it shittily with a bad translation and post it on a website and you should kiss my ass for all the 'hard work' I did making up words to copy-paste in the text bubbles?

The whole POINT I was trying to make is that Ju-Ni is usually very reliable and fairly good in their translation work, but that this chapter (and apparently this whole volume) was extrordinarily bad to the point of warping the author's intent for the scene. That's why I was so happy to hear from a person who helps clean for Ju-Ni that that translator wasn't with the group anymore. There's absolutely no merit to be had for a translation group that gets it wrong-- that's why I'm glad Ju-Ni can see their errors and plan in future to make an attempt to rectify them.

Also the reason that I don't do my own scanslations of Bleach? 1. I have a job and I don't have the time available to devote myself to translating each week, which is why I just read the JP raw and limit myself to pointing out only GLARING translation errors (you don't notice me making a post to nitpick over everything, do you? This was a serious goddamn translation error, and I'll thank you to take note of that) and 2. It would ruin my slacker drunk image, which I work very hard to perpetuate on the forum.

Oh, by the way-- M7's inaccuracy is legendary, and they've -always- been about 40% inaccurate. If this chaps your ass you can take it up with them, OK? They don't award college degrees for inaccurate translations-- why should I recommend inaccurate translations to others on the internet?

Go cry more.

ill let him know... but i have a feelin he already does... think that was big part of reason why he wants to redo the volume as a whole as i think there prolly is more than just that mistake on it... so he knows... pretty sure he knows... hee hee...
i cant say how quickly it will happen on the fix... as atm ya know the whole time crunch to translate weeklies then the rest of the week outside of RL he translates the volumes (atm on v29)... volumes with his name on the credits prolly way more accurate than the weeklies since he spends more time translating those...
as for other guy... well i think it was a girl *scratches head* not sure... soo dunno how effective a kick there would be... LOL.. besides would never do anythin like that anyhow... not in my nature... hee hee...

Haha, well, we got the word out on the inaccurate translation, so that'll be good enough for now. XD Thanks again for the information, it makes me feel a lot better recommending recent Ju-Ni work now. I'll just warn people away from that specific volume until they can fix it. XD

Also there's a phrase for the female equivalent of a ball-kicking, but I can't repeat it in a mixed setting. :3

Agmaster: Gunt punching? It'll get deleted soon enough, but my eloquence shall hopefully see someone's eyes.

Bah, I'm such a wuss for using my verbal slang version.

And that's why you're my honey bear, Ag-chan. :uhuh

[Agmaster]

Gunt punching? It'll get deleted soon enough, but my eloquence shall hopefully see someone's eyes.

Bah, I'm such a wuss for using my verbal slang version.

[Michsi]

@ Guildenstern - *bows to you in respect* Thank you eversomuch for this :glomp

Just to emphazise on how important your correction was and accurate translation in general, I remember a while ago, I had postet a very long argument about the meaning behind that particular line. This nullifies it entirely :eek Waisted 15 min of my life :yell !!!! Neh, just kidding :D But honestly this left me speechless ,because all this time I believed that Kubo's intention was to let the readers know of Orihime's importance to Ichigo despite the lack of "bonding" moments between them, through another person's observation.

I do appreciate everyones (scanlation groups) hard work and I'm no way taking it for granted. I'm convinced it's not easy and I admire they're devotion but I can't deny that Guidenstern has a point there.

[Guildenstern]

@ Guildenstern - *bows to you in respect* Thank you eversomuch for this :glomp

Just to emphazise on how important your correction was and accurate translation in general, I remember a while ago, I had postet a very long argument about the meaning behind that particular line. This nullifies it entirely :eek Waisted 15 min of my life :yell !!!! Neh, just kidding :D But honestly this left me speechless ,because all this time I believed that Kubo's intention was to let the readers know of Orihime's importance to Ichigo despite the lack of "bonding" moments between them, through another person's observation.

Yeah, that's the same reaction I'm getting from a lot of people. "You mean...Matsumoto didn't really say that Orihime was as important to Ichigo as Rukia?" No, she didn't. The scene was meant to convey that Orihime was 'cool' or admirable for facing up to her feelings of jealousy towards Rukia and working through them instead of avoiding her feelings (and Rukia) or running away. Matsumoto is right-- Orihime not letting her jealousy over Rukia hinder her from helping and supporting Ichigo(and he needs the help) is extremely admirable, and Orihime shouldn't feel bad about her jealousy, considering with what degree of maturity she's handling it. The real scene is actually more moving, I think. You're a good kid, Orihime. (._____.);; Sorry if I wrecked something you were working on, Michsi.

I do appreciate everyones (scanlation groups) hard work and I'm no way taking it for granted. I'm convinced it's not easy and I admire they're devotion but I can't deny that Guidenstern has a point there.
Thanks for your understanding, Michsi. (.___.);; And sorry for necro-hijacking your thread.

[Michsi]

Thanks for your understanding, Michsi. (.___.);; And sorry for necro-hijacking your thread.

Sorry? What for? I appreciate it more than anything :D
And about the un-dead thread> a little spit and polish and it's like brand new :D

Sorry if I wrecked something you were working on, Michsi.

No, don't worry , it's been a long time ago and , truthfully, I prefer this version way more .Also I agree, it makes the scene more moving.
But I have to be honest I WAS planning on reusing that line at some point for back-up evidence and you saved me from making a huge mistake.

[WatanukiXXX]

Thank you Guildenstern for this

I had no idea that Ju-Ni screwed up this chapter and volume :eek:

I've always held Manga-Rain as being one the best then Ju-Ni second and only then Mangashare or Franky House or Maximum 7

But it's very difficult for me to get Manga-Rain scans so i've dl all the Ju-Ni volumes in hopes they are closest to being accurate (is a OCD about acuracy in translations)

thank you thank you..now i gota keep an eye out for MR's chapter 199 :D

[Guildenstern]

No, don't worry , it's been a long time ago and , truthfully, I prefer this version way more .Also I agree, it makes the scene more moving.
But I have to be honest I WAS planning on reusing that line at some point for back-up evidence and you saved me from making a huge mistake.
Very pleased I was of some use then. (>__<)v

Thank you Guildenstern for this

I had no idea that Ju-Ni screwed up this chapter and volume :eek:

I've always held Manga-Rain as being one the best then Ju-Ni second and only then Mangashare or Franky House or Maximum 7

But it's very difficult for me to get Manga-Rain scans so i've dl all the Ju-Ni volumes in hopes they are closest to being accurate (is a OCD about acuracy in translations)

thank you thank you..now i gota keep an eye out for MR's chapter 199 :D

Thank you for your kindness. (.___.);; Yeah, Ju-Ni is what I read because they're usually really good. I guess it was just the translator for that specific volume that borked it. Since Spirit told us that that translator is no longer with them, I feel a lot better about recommending them to other people. Go ahead and read Ju-Ni, you'll be OK. :D I think I might cross-check that volume and try to see if any other errors of that magnitude were made and try to clear it up while we wait for Ju-Ni to revise it officially.

Something else from this chapter--
Upon reading the (lol) Pairing Debate thread in the Debate section in a fit of purest masochism a while ago, I noticed a little discussion going on about whether Rukia had ever been referred to in the manga as 'pretty'. I now know where this debate comes from. XD Ju-Ni 199 translation has Orihime referring to Rukia as 'pure' when the word she uses is actually 'kirei' in the JP raw. Manga-Rain's translation is again the correct one in which Orihime is shown correctly calling Rukia 'pretty'-- not 'pure'.

A minor error but one that caused quite a few posts, regardless. XD
My god, it's full of stars

[Lady Scaper]

THnak you for checking up on this and letting us, know. I really appreciate this. :D

[HaNa]

Guildenstern that was a great thing to confirm us about ch 199, I never knew about it till I read your post because I usually read m7 translation even though I know they mistranslated most of the time but I like their quality that's why I download from them

Anyway, I wanna know something about the anime since they took the exact conversations from the manga, didn't matsumouto say in ep 116 that ichigo wants both of her and rukia because he can't stand by himself or it can be mistranslation again ? :confused:

[furato]

Regarding what Matsumoto said to Orihime in Manga-Rain's ch199, I don't have my computer with me but if I recall correctly, she said that Ichigo needs both Rukia and Orihime. Then the next page is the page Guildenstern pointed out earlier. Will check later unless someone else can confirm it with a M-R translation.

[manfan]

Regarding what Matsumoto said to Orihime in Manga-Rain's ch199, I don't have my computer with me but if I recall correctly, she said that Ichigo needs both Rukia and Orihime. Then the next page is the page Guildenstern pointed out earlier. Will check later unless someone else can confirm it with a M-R translation.
Oh, dear furato....there's no need to go further on. Someone might be mocked for posting the wrong thing, when the real thing is actually in the previous page. Besides.....M-7 is not accurate, it's biased with IchiHime stuffs, so you can't rely on them.

You can read and write Japanese, can't you Guidenstern? Even if you are not sure, you could at least refer to the Bleach anime. I assure you they know how to read and write Japanese language, and their scripts is exactly straight from the Bleach RAWS.

[Guildenstern]

Regarding what Matsumoto said to Orihime in Manga-Rain's ch199, I don't have my computer with me but if I recall correctly, she said that Ichigo needs both Rukia and Orihime. Then the next page is the page Guildenstern pointed out earlier. Will check later unless someone else can confirm it with a M-R translation.

Yup! A good translation I saw for this scene was on Debbichan's LJ comm by a person named bjornz. I was very impressed by it so I copy-pasted it.
"Idiot... All you have to do is stay as you are. Both you, and Rukia. Ichigo's still a child who can't stand up by himself, so right now he needs both of you. Being jealous is nothing to be ashamed of.

You're making an effort to accept those heavy (bad) parts of yourself frankly.

Don't you know how easy it is to run away and blame everything on someone else? By refusing to do that and accepting those parts of yourself...

You're already very admirable, Orihime."

I have the M-R page vs. the Ju-Ni page here too if you want it, but I only posted the page in question because it was the most glaring of the translation errors. You'll note I said that the rest of the chapter had other such inaccuracies too...If you find it important, I can post it if you want. Are you trying to check the accuracy?

Edit: Let's just get this out of the way now.

JP Raw (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/12.jpg)

Ju-Ni (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/lolju-ni2.png)

Manga-Rain (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/manga-rainbleach-ch199-12.png)

Side-by-side text sample comparison:

JP raw: "Ichigo wa mada hitori de tatenai gaki dakara/Ima no anoko ni wa anta mo Kuchiki mo hitsuyou na no"
Ju-Ni: "Look, Ichigo needs Kuchiki just as much as he needs you."
Manga-Rain: "Ichigo is still a brat who can't stand up on his own...that boy needs both of you to be there for him."
I think the translation I posted from Debbiechan's LJ comm is a bit more correct than M-R's here, but it's almost exactly the same thing so let's not quibble.

Also I like how Matsumoto's second text bubble goes from: Manga-Rain: "So what if you're a little jealous?" to Ju-Ni: "....she has her own thing that helps him out". For the exact same block of text. Nice, very nice.

Oh, dear furato....there's no need to go further on. Someone might be mocked for posting the wrong thing, when the real thing is actually in the previous page. Besides.....M-7 is not accurate, it's biased with IchiHime stuffs, so you can't rely on them.

You can read and write Japanese, can't you Guidenstern? Even if you are not sure, you could at least refer to the Bleach anime. I assure you they know how to read and write Japanese language, and their scripts is exactly straight from the Bleach RAWS.

...No, M7 is not accurate. Again, please see under the 'Spoiler' tag on my sig for a good example of the kind of context and word error that occurs usually with M7 translations. Posting what wrong thing? I don't understand what you're trying to say. As for M7 being 'Ichihime' biased, I'm not quite sure, but I know that their vocabulary is not very accurate and sometimes conveys the wrong impression. I'm not really a 'shipper' so I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

And I referred people to watch the Dattebayo fansub of this ep about a page ago. And while sometimes they deviate slightly from the JP Raw script yes, generally the content is almost identical, so it's cool.

Also my JP writing skills are shitty, but I read OK. Was there a point you wanted to make with this? Your post seems kind of odd. Can you explain?

[manfan]

:rolleyes:If you are trying to prove that Matsumoto says, Ichigo doesn't need Orihime as much as he needs Rukia, you are really doing at the wrong page. That's what furato is trying to say.

From....
I have necrobumped this thread from the abyss to highlight a very serious translation error that was perpetrated by Ju-Ni from volume 199. Let's just say it was egregious enough that I felt like making a post about it to clear up some misconceptions held about this chapter that are incorrect. Very rarely do I find such....glaring errors in Ju-Ni's translation work, but upon getting hold of the raw to 199 tonight and reading it, believe me-- the error is HUGE and it makes a substantial difference in how the chapter is perceived.

First, let's compare the page in question side-by-side from three different sources: JP Raw, Ju-Ni and Manga-Rain. Click links to see the full pages.

JP Raw (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/13.jpg)

Ju-Ni (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/lolju-ni.png)

Manga-Rain (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/lolmangarain.png)


Anyone with even the most...basic grasp of hiragana and a JP dictionary, upon seeing the JP Raw and then reading the Ju-Ni translation can see that the Ju-Ni translation is HORRIFICALLY incorrect and the Manga-Rain translation is the vastly more correct of the two. What Matsumoto is trying to say to Orihime is not that she is unique to Ichigo in her own way as the Ju-Ni translation states, but rather that she is brave and 'cool' for standing up to her feelings of jealousy towards Rukia and not running away or being overwhelmed by them.

To break it down to simple text-based differences:

JP Raw: "Anta soushite...jibun no omoi tokoro chanto uketomeyou to shiteru ja nai"
Ju-Ni: "But you're unique in the same way to him"
Manga-Rain: "At least you're confronting it and dealing with it on your own!"
Um, hello? Ju-Ni? What on earth? While the Manga-Rain translation is not how I would have phrased it and still leaves something to be desired (IMO), it's still LEAGUES ahead of the Ju-Ni translation in conveying the import of this scene to the reader.

Given the inaccuracy of the above (a general inaccuracy which is indicative of the accuracy of the rest of the chapter, I just picked the most glaring example) which is NOT what I have come to expect from Ju-Ni given their track record of generally correct translations, I gotta say for now you need to stick with Manga-Rain to avoid getting the wrong idea. The fact that Ju-Ni has let this...grossy inaccurate translation stand in their batch download of the manga volumes is a bit disturbing to me.


to....

Edit: Let's just get this out of the way now.

JP Raw

Ju-Ni

Manga-Rain

Side-by-side text sample comparison:

JP raw: "Ichigo wa mada hitori de tatenai gaki dakara/Ima no anoko ni wa anta mo Kuchiki mo hitsuyou na no"
Ju-Ni: "Look, Ichigo needs Kuchiki just as much as he needs you."
Manga-Rain: "Ichigo is still a brat who can't stand up on his own...that boy needs both of you to be there for him."
I think the translation I posted from Debbiechan's LJ comm is a bit more correct than M-R's here, but it's almost exactly the same thing so let's not quibble.

Also I like how Matsumoto's second text bubble goes from: Manga-Rain: "So what if you're a little jealous?" to Ju-Ni: "....she has her own thing that helps him out". For the exact same block of text. Nice, very nice.

Two different quotes, now, from you, isn't it. The second quote is the one that furato and I are referring.....revealing that Ichigo needs Rukia as much as he needs Orihime.


Your first quote had a lot of people praising you for showing that actually Ichigo doesn't need Orihime the way he needs Rukia.

If you had stated clearly in regards to Ju-Ni wrongly scanlated the thing it would not have caused a big issue....as to whether Ichigo needs Rukia more/less than Orihime, vice-versa.

The fact is Kubo Tite writes it....Ichigo needs Orihime just as much as he needs Rukia.....something which Ju-Ni, Manga-Rain and whatever else Bleach scanlation, including the anime is saying.


So what if Ju-Ni has that written wrongly? Even if they were to re-edit the same thing would still come out......that Ichigo needs Orihime, just as he needs Rukia. Nothing change in that matter.

Yeah, that's the same reaction I'm getting from a lot of people. "You mean...Matsumoto didn't really say that Orihime was as important to Ichigo as Rukia?" No, she didn't. The scene was meant to convey that Orihime was 'cool' or admirable for facing up to her feelings of jealousy towards Rukia and working through them instead of avoiding her feelings (and Rukia) or running away. Matsumoto is right-- Orihime not letting her jealousy over Rukia hinder her from helping and supporting Ichigo(and he needs the help) is extremely admirable, and Orihime shouldn't feel bad about her jealousy, considering with what degree of maturity she's handling it. The real scene is actually more moving, I think. You're a good kid, Orihime. (._____.);; Sorry if I wrecked something you were working on, Michsi.

Guilderstein .....you are indeed admirable, very admirable, for trying to show that Matsumoto didn't really say Orihime being as important to Ichigo as Rukia.

[Cezaria]

I have my own translation on the subject matter, I don't think it varies too much from the person from Debbie's journal. But I'll clarify on a few JP words anyways...


Page 12

バカね　そのままで　いいのよ
"Silly girl...things are fine the way they are"
あんたも　朽木も
"For you, and Kuchiki too"
一護は　まだ一人で立てないガキだから
"Ichigo is just a kid who can't stand on his own"
今のあの子には　あんたも　朽木も必要なの
"So right now, he needs both you and Kuchiki"
妬いて何がカッコ悪いの
"What's wrong with being jealous?"

Page 13

あんたそうして　自分の重いところちゃんと受け止めようとしてるじゃない
"As for you...you're readily accepting your own shortcomings, aren't you?"
知ってる？そういうの逃げ回って　相手にぶつけた方がどんなに楽か
"Did you know? It's so easy to run away or blame them on someone else."
逃げずに　受け止めようとしてるだけ...
"Instead of running, you're taking and accepting them..."
あんた　充分カッコいいのよ　織姫
"You are already very admirable, Orihime."
No mention of Ichigo on the second page.

Not denying that she said Ichigo needs her as much as Rukia. But the phrasing was a bit "errrr" on the Ju-Ni one. She isn't "unique in her own way". That's just a twisting of what Matsumoto really said.

EDIT:


Guilderstein .....you are indeed admirable, very admirable, for trying to show that Matsumoto didn't really say Orihime being as important to Ichigo as Rukia.

Edit2: Neverfuckingmind.

Remember that this is coming from Matsumoto, a third person's eyes. It says nothing about the OMGWTFSHIPPINGCANONITY other than WHAT SHE THINKS of the matter. She thinks Ichigo needs them both. Matsumoto's thoughts period. So don't drag shipping drama in here =.=

[debbiechan]

Furato's post was perfectly non-threatening or sarcastic, Manfan, and pointed to relevant material--why do you have to make a stink?

I've gone back and read correct translations of the whole chapter. The context of the Matsumoto speech in Ju-ni is totally wrong. (Pardon me if I'd never seen the anime version--I've been following the anime irregularly ever since the animators started deforming Renji's face to the point that I couldn't look!)

Matusmoto refers to Ichigo as a child who needs both Rukia and Inoue. Yes. Plain. That is made there. At no point does Matsumoto emphasize Inoue's importance over Rukia as on the Ju-Ni translation. Ichigo is not even MENTIONED on the quoted page of text. The way the Ju-Ni translation reads, Matsumoto is trying to reassure Orihime of her importance by emphasizing her BOND to Ichigo. In the correct version, Matsumoto rewards Orihime for confronting her jealousy.

A big difference. Matsumoto doesn't put Orihime's value in relevance to Ichigo; she puts it on Orihime's trying to understand herself.

[manfan]

Why, thank you, Cezaria....for showing that Matsumoto did say Ichigo needs Rukia and Orihime.:)

Guilderstein....wrong page, wrong page from the beginning. That's what I'm trying to say.:)

It's up to other people, other fans to decide whether Ichigo really needs Orihime / Rukia or other girls in that way.

[Guildenstern]

...OK, look. Let's break this down nice and slowly so everyone is clear on what is going on here, OK?

If you are trying to prove that Matsumoto says, Ichigo doesn't need Orihime as much as he needs Rukia, you are really doing at the wrong page. That's what furato is trying to say.

Ahah. Ahahahahaha. So this is how we're going to try and spin it, is it? Everything's gotta be about shipping to you *censored*, doesn't it?

From my own post, which you decided to bold for some reason:
What Matsumoto is trying to say to Orihime is not that she is unique to Ichigo in her own way as the Ju-Ni translation states, but rather that she is brave and 'cool' for standing up to her feelings of jealousy towards Rukia and not running away or being overwhelmed by them.

...Yes, this is accurate. In the context of the conversation-- this is right. This page previously had an incorrect translation which gave it a different meaning that Orihime was unique in some way to Ichigo. This was an incorrect translation of the JP text. That is what I'm trying to point out. Not that Orihime is somehow NOT IMPORTANT to Ichigo but that the translation for this page was INCORRECT. The translation given previously that Orihime is 'unique' to Ichigo did not equal what was actually said by Matsumoto on this page as per what the author had written in the JP Raw in the text bubbles. OK? look i r using bold too www

The reason I put up the second quote was because furato mentioned it. I assumed she wanted to know if the translation for that one was inaccurate too. I posted the pictures to show that, yes, to a lesser extent than the first example I posted, it is in fact incorrect. This has NOTHING to do with the substance of Ichigo and Orihime's relationship and EVERYTHING to do with pointing out an issue which is the *censored* substance of this thread: I.E. INCORRECT TRANSLATIONS, you *censored censored*.

Your first quote had a lot of people praising you for showing that actually Ichigo doesn't need Orihime the way he needs Rukia.

If you had stated clearly in regards to Ju-Ni wrongly scanlated the thing it would not have caused a big issue....as to whether Ichigo needs Rukia more/less than Orihime, vice-versa.

Listen up, *censored*. Nobody cares about your *censored* shipping issues. This post was made to address an incorrect translation and the mistakes that had risen from it, not to give you a little platform to pontificate about your ship.

People praised me about my first quote because I pointed out a very large MISTAKE made by a well-known translation group that had caused a lot of confusion amongst the fans, not for 'OMG she pwnt Ichihime!11!1!1' I shouldn't have to clarify in my posts about LANGUAGE ISSUES that what I say isn't meant to be construed in a 'shipping opinion' fashion-- if I wanted to make a *bleeping* post about shipping I would post in a shipping forum. That is where shipping issues belong. No matter what shipping issues arise from this chapter, the translation is still incorrect. Oh. And you want a 'shipping opinion' from me? Here's one for you. Making totally unrelated translation issues about shipping is retarded, and it makes the person pushing the idea forward doubly retarded.

Oh, and since you edited:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guildenstern
Yeah, that's the same reaction I'm getting from a lot of people. "You mean...Matsumoto didn't really say that Orihime was as important to Ichigo as Rukia?" No, she didn't. The scene was meant to convey that Orihime was 'cool' or admirable for facing up to her feelings of jealousy towards Rukia and working through them instead of avoiding her feelings (and Rukia) or running away. Matsumoto is right-- Orihime not letting her jealousy over Rukia hinder her from helping and supporting Ichigo(and he needs the help) is extremely admirable, and Orihime shouldn't feel bad about her jealousy, considering with what degree of maturity she's handling it. The real scene is actually more moving, I think. You're a good kid, Orihime. (._____.);; Sorry if I wrecked something you were working on, Michsi.

Guilderstein .....you are indeed admirable, very admirable, for trying to show that Matsumoto didn't really say Orihime being as important to Ichigo as Rukia.

YES. ON THAT PAGE, you troglodyte donkey-chuffer (this was too much fun to type to censor, sorry). That's where the whole issue came from, that Ju-Ni had translated Matsumoto as saying that Orihime was unique to Ichigo where in the JP text she said nothing of the kind. What she said or did not say on the page previous to it has nothing to do with it unless we're talking about how badly translated it is, I'm talking about the mistranslation on -that- specific page. Let me spell this out for you. THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHIPPING AND YOU'RE A *CENSORED* FOR MAKING IT A SHIPPING ISSUE. Yes, I said it. God you pushy ship people are the most annoying nosy *censored*. They warned me when I started posting on this forum that you psychos would find a way to make EVERYTHING about shipping, but I didn't believe it could be that bad. I was wrong.

And my name is spelled Guildenstern *censored*.

It's up to other people, other fans to decide whether Ichigo really needs Orihime / Rukia or other girls in that way.

That's great. GTFO of this thread about INCORRECT TRANSLATIONS then and go talk about it with the rest of your little girlfriends in your shipping FC, then. I didn't make this post to make a point about shipping, and it should have NEVER been construed that way. The fact that it was is a striking commentary on the quality of the intelligence of the shipfans in question in general and in this case, in specific.

Edited-- I'm going to need to censor myself, being accused of intellectual dishonesty pissed me off way too much. Removed some swearing, for great justice. Sorry about that. Please accept my apologies if some of you got an eyeful. D:

[Natsu]

Something else from this chapter--
Upon reading the (lol) Pairing Debate thread in the Debate section in a fit of purest masochism a while ago, I noticed a little discussion going on about whether Rukia had ever been referred to in the manga as 'pretty'. I now know where this debate comes from. XD Ju-Ni 199 translation has Orihime referring to Rukia as 'pure' when the word she uses is actually 'kirei' in the JP raw. Manga-Rain's translation is again the correct one in which Orihime is shown correctly calling Rukia 'pretty'-- not 'pure'.


Hello :) I would just like to add one thing here. Ju-ni is not "wrong" about their translation.
Kirei can mean pretty or clean (in the context, pure.. for it would make no sense to call Rukia a clean person õ.O). I just bolded "correct" in your sentence cause Ju-ni is also right, it's just a matter of interpretation.
Though I do agree that "pretty" is more adequate, but it doesn't matter cause the feeling we get from this chapter is that Orihime is praising Rukia :)

And peace ;o Come on, you know that everything remotely linked to shipping (Ichigo, Rukia and Orihime discussions mostly) can become a ship war XD
I can't say much about that page cause I didn't even look the raw, but I don't see how it is such a big deal :/

[lookingback7]

Guildenstern, you make me LOL.

Heeheehee!

eta - thanks for helping to clear up a misleading translation issue. I for one appreciate your effort and I'm sorry that it turned into what it it did. Please don't stop your efforts on the the behalf of accurate translation because some people care too much about the personal issues of fictional characters.

We ain't all like that.

[Ros]

I have to pop out of semi-lurkerdom to respond to this:

It's up to other people, other fans to decide whether Ichigo really needs Orihime / Rukia or other girls in that way.

It really isn't, and that's the problem here. Just to clear up what's being addressed by bringing this inaccuracy to light (because I've been the person who sits on the couch and nods sympathetically while Guild vents her horror), if Matsumoto were saying on that page that she had tackled Orihime because she really wanted to make sure they were having red beans for dinner, and the translation read "It's cold today, isn't it?" the point would still be exactly the same. When someone translates text from one language to another, the idea is to convey the author's words as accurately as possible. Sometimes words have to be changed, when they don't make sense or there isn't a good equivalent from one language to another, but translating text doesn't usually imply artistic license.

It's not up to the fans to decide what's going on in the manga when Kubo is telling us what's going on in the manga. The misconception that came about because of this translation was that Kubo had implied an angle to Orihime's relationship with Ichigo that there hasn't been an explanation for so far, and a lot of people took it at face value (I know I'd been wondering for a while what that had meant and whether or not he was planning to do anything with it), when the actual text doesn't actually say anything of the kind. As fans, a lot of us tend to spend hours picking apart the canon and discussing it and whether a word means this or that, and the discussion about this page should really bring home how important accuracy is to those of us who depend on the kindness of someone else to make the manga readable for us. Fan translators are a godsend, and they're only human--mistakes happen, that's understandable. With this page, however, not only is the translation off, but it really looks like the translator in question was putting their own words in the character's mouth. And that's not cool.

Anyone is free to interpret the manga however they like, but it doesn't mean that all interpretations are valid. Kubo has said one thing here when people were thinking that he'd said another, and while you, personally, can decide anything you'd like to think about whether Orihime, or Rukia, or Renji, or a duck are important to Ichigo, Kubo has the final say.

[Guildenstern]

Hello :) I would just like to add one thing here. Ju-ni is not "wrong" about their translation.
Kirei can mean pretty or clean (in the context, pure.. for it would make no sense to call Rukia a clean person õ.O). I just bolded "correct" in your sentence cause Ju-ni is also right, it's just a matter of interpretation.
Though I do agree that "pretty" is more adequate, but it doesn't matter cause the feeling we get from this chapter is that Orihime is praising Rukia :)

And peace ;o Come on, you know that everything remotely linked to shipping (Ichigo, Rukia and Orihime discussions mostly) can become a ship war XD
I can't say much about that page cause I didn't even look the raw, but I don't see how it is such a big deal :/

RAWR RAWR GUILDY SMASH INTERNETS SRZ BZNS

XD Yeah, the whole 'kirei' meaning 'clean' or 'abluted' meaning was one that was known to me, but usually when it takes on that meaning it's being used in the context of 'a clean floor' or 'I got that dirt out, it's clean now'. That's why I was saying Manga-Rain's translation was correct in Orihime saying that Rukia was pretty-- it's just a simpler and easier translation than the other one. XD But you're right, it's pretty much the same thing so it's easier just to let it lie.

Well, the translation error is a big deal because it was a rather huge and deliberate mistake and it caused a great deal of confusion, or so I'm told. That is an actual serious concern. The shipping issues? >___>;;; Not so serious at all, really. The fact that the first thing that comes to people's minds when I correct a page that even possibly, tangentally MIGHT have something to do with how a romantic interest is perceived in Bleach is to freak out and try to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty in pointing it out is....well, I started out angry but now I'm kind of LOL.

Also, I hereby solemnly swear not to abuse the size and bold tool for three weeks to atone for the eye abuse I have wrought. .___.;;

Edit: Just brought to my attention:
This (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/lolM7.jpg) is the M7 page of the original page that I posted about. This is why I do not recommend M7. At all.

[debbiechan]

Anyone is free to interpret the manga however they like, but it doesn't mean that all interpretations are valid. Kubo has said one thing here when people were thinking that he'd said another, and while you, personally, can decide anything you'd like to think about whether Orihime, or Rukia, or Renji, or a duck are important to Ichigo, Kubo has the final say.


I just have to highlight this in order to declare my love for Ros in public.

And yes, thank you to all scanlation groups. People who work hard for free still have an obligation to accurate translation. Mistakes happen but a WHOLE PAGE OF MADE UP STUFF is inexcusable. I still support Ju-Ni--they're still my favorite and I'm glad they're addressing this error. As for quick scan groups--hell, I'm like everyone else and I run to them as soon as they come out. All scan groups do their part for fandom and decent fans appreciate their work.

[Lucia]

@Guildenstern: Thanks for pointing out the mistranslations. It's nice to know which translations is actually accurate and which ones aren't. It makes a huge difference, especially for someone who don't have a good grasp of the Japanese language.

[FoodisGood]

Yeah. Thanks Guildenstern. Shipping or not, we deserve to know the author's original intent and correct translations are essential. Sure this chapter wouldn't be that important to non-shippers but what if another more influential chapter was mistranslated? Then wouldn't we be just understanding Bleach wrong?

So thanks!

[Saffire]

If you have a lot of free time lying around, there's a thread that used to exist on BF where people (largely pocketmofo) would field questions about translation issues. It covers quite a bit of ground along the earlier chapters ( think the latest chapter covered is around 238) and is well worth a read. Especially read page 5, since I don't think any group accurately explains how Ikkaku's bankai works.

http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php?t=16121

[Jaina]

I always assumed it worked by summoning pure particles of Badassery (tm) out of the air around him, but I'm guessing that's not a translation-approved summary...

[the_one_freeDAN]

I was glad to find a thread like this i used to read only the translated manga but it seems many errors are there, some glaring some not but the point is there were a lot i mean its like fine with me if its not possible to translate zommari's "polite" aspect but just gettin somethin plain wrong is problematic for the reader >< i know its hard work and all but misinterpretation of bleach would be sucky indeed now i read the raw and the translation and i think that's for the best but translation question threads is a cool idea cause japanese isnt widely known heh ^^

[Cezaria]

Hmm, I got this in my CP box:

Everso wrong translation~~Since when did'重いところちゃんと受け止めようとしてる' become 'your own shortcoming' What a wonderful depictioI'd just like to clarify

重い　Omoi = "Heavy" "Grave" "Serious"
ところ　Tokoro = "place"

Putting them together means literally "heavy/serious place"

Matsumoto obviously meant Orihime's jealousy, which is a heavy, negative, emotion. I translated it as "shortcoming" because the phrase bears negative connotations about Orihime herself. Also because I didn't want to use the same phrase as the person before.

And I'm not a professional translator. So GTFO your high horse already unless you show me you can do better.

[spacecat]

Cez, just ignore people if they are rude about it, I find it happens a lot, I don't mind being corrected about mistakes but there is no need for people to be such asses about it >_< I think a lot of people don't realise either that many things if literally translated sound like nonsense so translators need to guess the best way to represent it in English. In the end screw em if they don't like it, you're trying to do people a favour, and just keep learning : D

[Guildenstern]

I'm not even going to bother posting some of the more...creative messages I've gotten from apparently enraged Ichigo/Orihime fans for pointing out a translation mistake (maybe should take email out of profile, I'm thinking), but here's one of my favourites I received just this morning. I wanted to make a set with Cezaria.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/loltranslationnegrep.jpg

U You claim u you cunt (was this intentional) read Japanese, but u you fail BIG TIME IN GRAMMAR (ironic?). Self-acclaimed, self-righteous hollow-head. U You go learn grammar first (sentence particle) before comparing urself yourself with other translators WHO READ, WRITE, MEMORIZE, TRAINED IN JAPANESE BY HEART. (sentence fragment) (poss. need semicolon?)

Fixed that for you.

Also, you 'Ichihime' crazies can leave me alone now, OK? I was just....pointing out...an inaccurate translation. Take it up with Kubo if you're mad it doesn't say what you thought it said, OK? Jesus.

[HaNa]

oh god can't ppl say the truth >__> I can't believe some ppl can be that childish..even if Guildenstern didn't point out that some ppl will notice it later on.. so Be more mature and respectful please..

[Lady Orihime]

I honestly don't give a damn, LOL! I go by Ju-Ni's translations until we get the official translation from VIZ, after that, it's a moot point for me. I go by VIZ in the end because they've got professional translators and adaptors to make the story easier for us to understand.



Also, you 'Ichihime' crazies can leave me alone now, OK? I was just....pointing out...an inaccurate translation. Take it up with Kubo if you're mad it doesn't say what you thought it said, OK? Jesus.

Don't assume it was 'IchiHime' crazies (isn't this bashing, BTW?) Could have been one of the other people who signed up here to say they think you are wrong, or just don't like you.

I might have an idea of who it was, but he/she isn't an IchixHime fan.

[Annie]

Thanks for the correction, Cez and Guildy. I'm glad that Juni noticed the error on this chapter as well. The correct translation is always better since I want to know if I understand the story correctly or not XD

[Guildenstern]

I honestly don't give a damn, LOL! I go by Ju-Ni's translations until we get the official translation from VIZ, after that, it's a moot point for me. I go by VIZ in the end because they've got professional translators and adaptors to make the story easier for us to understand.

One of the responsibilities of the readers of an author's translated work is to make the best effort possible to find a translation that honors the author's original text. Since Ju-Ni has gotten rid of the faulty translator who handled that volume that this heinously incorrect translation appeared in, sticking with Ju-Ni is obviously now OK, but try to be an informed consumer of what you read. We owe the author and the author's work the respect of a correct translation.

Don't assume it was 'IchiHime' crazies (isn't this bashing, BTW?) Could have been one of the other people who signed up here to say they think you are wrong, or just don't like you.

I might have an idea of who it was, but he/she isn't an IchixHime fan.

I know it was because they told me so? The substance of the mails seemed to be that I was a big meanie for translating a page that...I don't know? Took something away from some kind of Ichigo/Orihime shipping issue? I really don't know and I don't care. I'm getting angry because I'm being accused by these fans that I corrected this page because I have some kind of intense hatred for Ichigo/Orihime and not because it was...you know, incorrect. That's why I want them to leave me alone. It's not 'bashing' if the people who sent them specifically referenced the Ichigo/Orihime thing as one of the reasons they were so pissed off.

The page is still incorrect, no matter how much people don't like it. If I had known this was going to turn into shipper drama in my goddamn inbox I never would have posted. :/

No, I was actually responding to debbiechan's earlier post that Matsumoto didn't say Ichigo needs both Orihime and Rukia. Thanks for the comparison Guild. As for accuracy, I've already put my trust in M-R for years, not even Ju-Ni's current good translator will stop me from replacing my scanlations with M-R's whenever they feel like releasing, LOL. Some people like Ju-Ni's English better, but M-R's usually straightforward wording is clearer for me, maybe because English's a foreign language to me? I think they explain well about how Ikkaku's bankai works, too.

Right on, furato. ^^b Glad the comparison was of some use to you, especially if English is your second language. Keep working hard at it!

[furato]

Yup! A good translation I saw for this scene was on Debbichan's LJ comm by a person named bjornz. I was very impressed by it so I copy-pasted it.

[...]

I have the M-R page vs. the Ju-Ni page here too if you want it, but I only posted the page in question because it was the most glaring of the translation errors. You'll note I said that the rest of the chapter had other such inaccuracies too...If you find it important, I can post it if you want. Are you trying to check the accuracy?No, I was actually responding to debbiechan's earlier post that Matsumoto didn't say Ichigo needs both Orihime and Rukia. Thanks for the comparison Guild. As for accuracy, I've already put my trust in M-R for years, not even Ju-Ni's current good translator will stop me from replacing my scanlations with M-R's whenever they feel like releasing, LOL. Some people like Ju-Ni's English better, but M-R's usually straightforward wording is clearer for me, maybe because English's a foreign language to me? I think they explain well about how Ikkaku's bankai works, too.

(Maybe I gotta start lugging my external HDD with me for mangageeking XD)

[Ileenka]

That's nice of you to point it out, Guild. And thanks Cez for all your posts on the subject as well. And other people who offered their input.

I personally don't see this as a big deal because I read the Chinese scans a long time ago - (before I entered fandom and before I knew IchiHime even existed, LOL. I didn't even know what is an IchiRuki then, so please don't take the previous statement as stark arrogance, and please don't send me nasty emails and neg reps.) Besides, I read Manga Rain's translation when they released their tank version.

But anyway, there are lots of translation mistakes here and there by M7, even Ju-Ni has moments of mistakes. They're a team of human translators and they have a splendid record for accuracy, so it's alright if they messed up this one. It's not really that important; as far as shipping goes, one party will be glad Rangiku wasn't giving in-depth analysis about Ichigo, and the other party will never ever be convinced anyway.

Let's say I have a choice. I'll go by Japanese RAW. :nuts I can't take any translation I prefer, :hm since that's not .... :headscratch - authorial intent. :D *credits to Debbie for that phrase. :nuts

[debbiechan]

No, I was actually responding to debbiechan's earlier post that Matsumoto didn't say Ichigo needs both Orihime and Rukia.

I didn't say that. One could quibble that I implied that, but my I clarified in my comm and in the IchiRuki FC that Matsumoto DID say that Ichigo needed both Inoue and Kuchiki. I suppose you would've had to had been around for the discussions in which the disputed page was used to support Orihime's importance to Ichigo and to the coming plot to understand what I was saying. Lots of people were misled by the Ju-Ni translation in the midst of some of our fannish talk and starwing, an IchiRuki-er, had made several good points in favor of IchiOri based on this translation.


wow. That's a stunning error. And completely changes my reading of the manga. I'd ALWAYS believed that Matsumoto told Orihime that she was just as important to Ichigo as Rukia. At my most biased, I thought Matsumoto was being overly-kind and lying (because to me, Orihime doesn't mean as much to Ichigo as Rukia and this was NOT in keeping with Matsumoto's straight-up character) but I'd finally decided that this was Matsumoto being wise and foreseeing that Orihime WOULD matter to Ichigo as much.

And I like Matsumoto praising Orihime here for facing up to the facts. It's what me the old lady would do if trying to comfort an angsting teenager. I'd say hey, you're confronting your feelings instead of trying to fight them--good for you!


Thank you for pointing out the previous page, though, furato, and helping clear things up. It's so easy to be polite--I wonder why some people insist on being the opposite.

[chappyrules]

Guildenstern thanks for the translation of this chapter wish i could rep you :cry - its nice to know kubos words as they are meant to be read xd

[Starwing]

Oh Guild, <3 <3 Hearts and butterflies abound!

You're absolutely awesome and I love you!

Warning: the effect of this translation mistake on me, but it's very shipping oriented.

I did spend a long time arguing against fellow IchiRuki-ers in NF about this. After reading Ju-Ni's translation, I went away believing Matsumoto said...

-Ichigo needs Orihime and Rukia both. -True
-Orihime is just as important to Ichigo as Rukia. -Not so true

And I based my arguments on the second point, believing this was a case of Kubo (author) speaking through Matsumoto and a projection into the future. Like debbie, I got carried away with this.

To quote myself... ^^'
I guess it's BECAUSE Ichigo's never paid much attention to Orihime that I think he's going to. If he doesn't, readers will look at that and say, "Hey look, the dude hasn't grown in this sense. He's still an oblivious idiot."

I think... part of growth in books is that if it hasn't happened yet, and it's been hanging on the edge for five years, a good writer will try to resolve that somehow.

At first I thought Kubo would just resolve it with Orihime's resolve, but I changed my mind after Matsumoto.

You're right, Matsumoto knows NOTHING about Ichigo/Rukia/Orihime dynamics. All she knows is that Ichigo saved Rukia and Orihime seems jealous of something. The only thing she's in a position to do is comfort Orihime, not very well though.

However, it doesn't change the fact that that statement is out there. As a rule, I take all comments by characters in mangas as 'true' until proven wrong or unless it's utterly ridiculous. I guess it's part of the whole suspension of disbelief thing.

For example, what the deranged Hinamori said to Hitsugaya: "I'm sure Aizen's a good person, blah, blah, blah, he's just being tricked, blah, blah, blah." On the surface this seems so ridiculous that most would just dismiss it. Yet it is in the manga, and it would not surprise me one bit if this turned out to be true.

Matsumoto, on the other hand, is not deranged, not stupid, and she did not say it for comedic relief. She said it seriously, and she wanted to be taken seriously. So yeah... I guess personally I took it VERY literally and seriously.


As for out-of-character-ness. I don't think Ichigo and Orihime developing a special relationship is out of character. If it becomes THE most important relationship in the story, I might think it's too much, but I don't think it will.

The thing is, many of the gang already have a special place (to varying degrees) in Ichigo's heart, he just has to realize it. Ichigo and Rukia, obviously. Chad for one. Chad has always been Ichigo's strength pre-Bleach, and he is struggling to maintain that position. That is a special relationship that Chad and Ichigo share that they share with no one else. In fact, I don't think any other characters in Bleach have this.

Ishida has the potential to become a special friend to Ichigo, with their unique rivalry. At this point however, both men are too engrossed in their own battles and too independent (cough) to push their friendship further. Renji and Ichigo's interactions do not have any distinct flair (unlike, say Ichigo and Ganjyuu), and Renji's mostly focused on Rukia regardless.

There are many special and deep relationships in Bleach, some developed and some still developing. An example of this is Hitsugaya and Hinamori, though the affection comes mostly on Hitsugaya's part. Another would be the relationship of Zaraki and Yachiru, where they are closer to each other than anybody else in the world. The relationship between Ikkaku and Yumichika. So by special relationship, I do not mean romantic relationship by a long shot.

It simply means that Orihime will find a comfortable place by Ichigo's side. Whether this is as a girl friend (doubtful), or one of these special friends, remains to be seen. I just think 'normal friend' is too mild a term to be applied to Bleach at all, where almost no deep friendships have been normal. They have all been unique and characterizing.

And it snow-balled into something quite horrendous. And now I guess I HAVE been proven wrong. At least in this one point. I don't mind being proven wrong so much... though it is embarrassing, especially when I put so much emphasis on it. But what can you do?

Now, I sort of see how the translator could've gotten "just as important" as an extension of "both needed," but these are not the same things.


And guys, if even the Ju-Ni people admit that there was a mistake in the translation, then it's pretty obvious what is the true translation. I don't know how the mistake was originally made, but it's obvious that this impacted how we viewed the manga. And as such, it's perfectly valid and even NECESSARY to point out the mistake. As a Bleach fan, it's something we should be grateful and eager to find out. As a shipper, it's even more vital, so you don't end up using faulty evidence in arguments and such.


And now I'm prepared to be neg-repped for taking this in a shipping direction... ><

[the_one_freeDAN]

why didn't they put the kanji for tokoro in the raw, is it just an aesthetic thing or what i guess i just found it weird cause all the other words were in kanji and nowadays i get so suspicious bout anything that doesn't have its kanji when it should or at least is a widely known one. *shrug* i dunno, *goes and reads sentence again lol*

[debbiechan]

Oh Guild, <3 <3 Hearts and butterflies abound!

You're absolutely awesome and I love you!

Warning: the effect of this translation mistake on me, but it's very shipping oriented.

I did spend a long time arguing against fellow IchiRuki-ers in NF about this. After reading Ju-Ni's translation, I went away believing Matsumoto said...

-Ichigo needs Orihime and Rukia both. -True
-Orihime is just as important to Ichigo as Rukia. -Not so true

And I based my arguments on the second point, believing this was a case of Kubo (author) speaking through Matsumoto and a projection into the future. Like debbie, I got carried away with this.

To quote myself... ^^'


And it snow-balled into something quite horrendous. And now I guess I HAVE been proven wrong. At least in this one point. I don't mind being proven wrong so much... though it is embarrassing, especially when I put so much emphasis on it. But what can you do?

Now, I sort of see how the translator could've gotten "just as important" as an extension of "both needed," but these are not the same things.


And guys, if even the Ju-Ni people admit that there was a mistake in the translation, then it's pretty obvious what is the true translation. I don't know how the mistake was originally made, but it's obvious that this impacted how we viewed the manga. And as such, it's perfectly valid and even NECESSARY to point out the mistake. As a Bleach fan, it's something we should be grateful and eager to find out. As a shipper, it's even more vital, so you don't end up using faulty evidence in arguments and such.


And now I'm prepared to be neg-repped for taking this in a shipping direction... ><

I so admire you Star, not only for arguing IchiOri points as an IchiRuki but for pointing out clearly from where your arguments come from. I've loved all my shipping talk with you, and as you show here, those of us who can't read raws are dependent on accurate translation for our intense finicky fannish over-readings of Bleach! :cool:

Yes, and Guildy rules for bringing the translation error to our attention--as do others who helped clarify the pages in question. Thank you guys.

[Agmaster]

Logically, I do so enjoy the idea of absolute/objective truths and translations being presented. However, I can't help but think of the La Li Lu Le Lo and context when I read the resurgence of this thread.

You already know this is no dig at the information gained, just a somber acceptance of what is to be borne of it.

[tari101190]

i have a translation issue...i pm'ed guildenstren about it though...

ju-ni is the best yeah i know, but they sem to make a mistake all the time.

reiryoku = spiritual power (energy aswell sometimes)
ryoku = power
reiatsu = spiritual pressure
danatsu = pressure (i think...)
reiraku = spiritual threads

when the manga saying reiryoku in japanese, ju-ni always write it as reiatsu instead. it may not seem like a big deal, but ppl seem to write reiatsu al the time, when they mean reiryoku, so it confuses mewehen i dnt no wat ppl are talkin about, cos they dnt no themselves really...

i no it doesn't seem like a big deal but for example -

the super hiyori walker takes away your spiritual power/energy (reiryoku) as you ride it.

although ju-ni wrote it as reiatsu.

so they wrote a sentance whuch obviously makes no sense. they basically wrote -

the super hiyori walker takes away your spiritual pressure (reiatsu) as you ride it.

[Rain]

I don't think the differnce between spirtual pressure and spirtual power is all that big, it would just have to do with the context

JuNi may have wanted to not confuse fans by not interchanging reiatsu and reiryoku. Ironicly it probably caused more confusion

[jonat3]

I don't think the differnce between spirtual pressure and spirtual power is all that big, it would just have to do with the context

JuNi may have wanted to not confuse fans by not interchanging reiatsu and reiryoku. Ironicly it probably caused more confusion

On the contrary, there's a BIG difference between reiryoku and reiatsu. If we compare it to Ishida's water tap in the first arc, reiryoku would be the WATER itself from the tap, while reiatsu would be the water PRESSURE.

[Hiraeth]

Well then wouldn't the metaphor be that if more water is coming out of the same sized tap then it would be at a greater pressure, so the interchangeable use of reiatsu and reiryoku would still work. I mean, unless we're going into extreme details regarding the diamater of everyone's 'taps'...

[laurie b.]

Just thought I'd give this thread a bump, I have a question. Which is the more accurate translation for Shinji's volume poem?

Everything in this world
Exists to wear you down (viz version)

or

This entire world exists
for the sake of cornering you


To be honest, I don't know where I got the second version, I wrote it down on a post-it and it's been on my desk for ages. Googling it did not lead me back to the source.

I'm just asking because the second one is more poetic, something I'm thinking of printing on a shirt or something, but I want to know if it's the real deal or not. :) Help much appreciated, thanks. :love

[kaya]

Just thought I'd give this thread a bump, I have a question. Which is the more accurate translation for Shinji's volume poem?

Everything in this world
Exists to wear you down (viz version)

or

This entire world exists
for the sake of cornering you


To be honest, I don't know where I got the second version, I wrote it down on a post-it and it's been on my desk for ages. Googling it did not lead me back to the source.

I'm just asking because the second one is more poetic, something I'm thinking of printing on a shirt or something, but I want to know if it's the real deal or not. :) Help much appreciated, thanks. :love

I believe you got the second one from this excellent LJ entry (http://chirachira.livejournal.com/103520.html)

Chira-chira's translation is very accurate and indeed, I agree it is more poetic. But is it more correct?
Let's us see.

この世のすべては
kono yo no subete wa

The first verse:
この(ko no)= this is (The "no" here is used as a grammar, means " 's, of ")

世(yo)= It could mean "world", "society" ,"era" or "generation". But based on the context, "world" is the choice of word.

のすべては(no subete wa)= again, "no" and "wa" here are the particles. "subete" mean "all", "whole".

So literally(really literally), the translation of the first phrase is "This world's everything is"

あなたを追いつめる為にある
anata o oitsumeru tameni aru

The second verse:
あなた(anata) = "you"

を追いつめる(o oitesumeru)= "o" here is a particle.
Okay, "oitesumeru" is the key difference in both translations here.

It means 1)to corner 2)to drive to the wall 3)to run down 4)to track down

So the first poem writes "wear you down" while the second writes "cornering you". So actually, the context is still the same. It practically means "being trapped", "being chased into a dead end".

為に(tameni)= "for the sake of ", "on behalf of" , "in favor of "

ある(aru)= This word is very vast and can be really vague if you break it up. The word used here means "to be", "to have", which used "exists" for both translation.

So literally(really literally), the translation of the second phrase is "you be cornered for the sake to have." (LOL.Too literally....:che)


So I would prefer the second one, as it is more direct, and it captured the meaning of "being trapped", "being chased into a dead end" better and definitely, it is more poetic.

Hope it helps.:)

[laurie b.]

Kaya

Thanks so much :hugs That really helps clear up things. The first translation can imply depression or sadness ("bring you down"), that's why it's so vague to me. But the second translation is clear, it's an issue of feeling trapped by circumstances beyond one's control. "Cornering you" is also a good allusion to fighting -- like a boxer hammered in by an opponent -- so I guess it's more appropriate given the nature of Bleach.

I like the idea of Shinji being poetic, I don't know why. :love

[heofon]

Thread resurrection aside, I have a translation related question:

Why is it popularly accepted that in chapter 173 Renji says "I'll never let her go" (to Aizen, about Rukia)? How does "Who's gonna let go?" ("dare ga hanasu ka yo" in the original) translate into a phrase that in the shounen canon is practically equivalent to a marriage proposal?

Similarly, in chapter 98 (again, Renji related), "Getting Rukia back by force was impossible for me" changed into "Fighting to get Rukia back is nothing but an impossible dream for me". (Adding drama with the present tense and a romance feel with 'dream', absent in the original).

Overall, Manga-Rain butchered "The Star and the Stray Dog" chapter, pushing RenRuki ("aura of gentleness" instead of "aura of nobility"). It's as if the translator was doing shoujo before that chapter and forgot to take off the pink romance glasses. Don't get me wrong, I'm a very strong RenRuki supporter, but it's just that if you read the story in the traditional boys' adventure way (heroism, courage, bravery), it becomes so much more than just a silly lovers' spat and 'trying to save your gal' kind of story. It also explains the dynamics of the relationships between Rukia, Renji and Byakuya, instead of making it seem as if Renji was gyrating between being madly in love with Rukia and ignoring her completely (when she was injured by Grimmjow), as if Rukia couldn't make up her mind whether she reciprocates or not, and as if Byakuya was still undecided what he thinks about the idea (while possibly having ecchi thoughts about both of them).

Romance vision just doesn't work with a shounen story. It makes it seem as if the author kept forgetting who he paired off with who and had no idea about romantic relationships. Manga-Rain translates accurately, but invariably adds a romantic tinge to their wordings. To offer another example:

In chapter 152, after Ichigo frees Rukia from the Soukyouku, Rukia thinks: "Manazashi kara, kotoba kara, Ichigo no chikara ga nagarekonde kuru you da." Literally, that's "From his look, from his words, Ichigo's strength seems to be pouring". 'Kuru' is an aspectual verb here, or a path verb at best, not a lexical one. And sure, this rough translation needs to be reworked into more natural sounding English, but just how exactly does it translate into Manga-Rain's version of "From his eyes and his words, Ichigo's strength flows endlessly into me"?

It may not seem like a big deal, but it does make Rukia far more 'girly', doesn't it? If you have doubts about that, substitute Rukia with, say, Renji, in the exact same context. If Renji was ever to say "Ichigo's strength flows endlessly into me"... seriously, a shounen-ai (or even yaoi, cough) moment right there.

Phew, that was long. Hopefully somebody will actually read through it, and even more hopefully, find it worthwhile.

[Guildenstern]

Thread resurrection aside, I have a translation related question:

Why is it popularly accepted that in chapter 173 Renji says "I'll never let her go" (to Aizen, about Rukia)? How does "Who's gonna let go?" ("dare ga hanasu ka yo" in the original) translate into a phrase that in the shounen canon is practically equivalent to a marriage proposal?

Similarly, in chapter 98 (again, Renji related), "Getting Rukia back by force was impossible for me" changed into "Fighting to get Rukia back is nothing but an impossible dream for me". (Adding drama with the present tense and a romance feel with 'dream', absent in the original).

Overall, Manga-Rain butchered "The Star and the Stray Dog" chapter, pushing RenRuki ("aura of gentleness" instead of "aura of nobility"). It's as if the translator was doing shoujo before that chapter and forgot to take off the pink romance glasses. Don't get me wrong, I'm a very strong RenRuki supporter, but it's just that if you read the story in the traditional boys' adventure way (heroism, courage, bravery), it becomes so much more than just a silly lovers' spat and 'trying to save your gal' kind of story. It also explains the dynamics of the relationships between Rukia, Renji and Byakuya, instead of making it seem as if Renji was gyrating between being madly in love with Rukia and ignoring her completely (when she was injured by Grimmjow), as if Rukia couldn't make up her mind whether she reciprocates or not, and as if Byakuya was still undecided what he thinks about the idea (while possibly having ecchi thoughts about both of them).

Romance vision just doesn't work with a shounen story. It makes it seem as if the author kept forgetting who he paired off with who and had no idea about romantic relationships. Manga-Rain translates accurately, but invariably adds a romantic tinge to their wordings. To offer another example:

In chapter 152, after Ichigo frees Rukia from the Soukyouku, Rukia thinks: "Manazashi kara, kotoba kara, Ichigo no chikara ga nagarekonde kuru you da." Literally, that's "From his look, from his words, Ichigo's strength seems to be pouring". 'Kuru' is an aspectual verb here, or a path verb at best, not a lexical one. And sure, this rough translation needs to be reworked into more natural sounding English, but just how exactly does it translate into Manga-Rain's version of "From his eyes and his words, Ichigo's strength flows endlessly into me"?

It may not seem like a big deal, but it does make Rukia far more 'girly', doesn't it? If you have doubts about that, substitute Rukia with, say, Renji, in the exact same context. If Renji was ever to say "Ichigo's strength flows endlessly into me"... seriously, a shounen-ai (or even yaoi, cough) moment right there.

Phew, that was long. Hopefully somebody will actually read through it, and even more hopefully, find it worthwhile.

You really wanna know my true opinion?

It's because Westerners can't resist the allure of the love story. I remember how pissed off I got at people translating Urahara's 'Emotion is stronger than steel' line into 'Love is stronger than steel'. I went off on a tear about it that lasted like 20 minutes-- looking back on it, I must have been hilarious to those sitting around me and Ros at the time. But the point I was trying to make still holds true-- Western fans like to amp up the 'romance' angle because we love that shit. You'll often find in translated manga or even books, movies, etc, that when it's brought over even one-sided loves or crushes are translated to be a just a touch more dramatic than they are in the source languages, because Westerners can't bear the idea of someone going begging for a love connection even though they 'deserve' or have 'earned' one through pining after the object of their affection-- and sometimes it colors the translation.

And Bleach is plenty gay enough without help

The reason that these usually don't get corrected or talked about is that they're not really 'incorrect' per se, just a coloring of the translation and nobody wants to come off like a pedantic bastard going around correcting everyone unless something is actually seriously incorrect.

But you're right in what you're saying.

Edit: About the yaoi thing... Me and Ros-the-epic-roommate reached the consensus long ago that if Rukia were a man, Bleach would be the most popular yaoi/BL action manga EVER.

It's funny 'cause it's true.

[Yeade]

On kaya's kind suggestion, I'm re-posting my translation questions from the accurate scanlations thread (http://www.bleachasylum.com/showthread.php?t=3758):First, what exactly does Yoruichi think about Ichigo's Hollow mask in Chapter 116 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/20/)?

Next, the common description of the Vaizard as "ex-Shinigami who gained Hollow powers" is rather ambiguous on the timing. That is, did the Vaizard become hybrids after leaving Soul Society or were they forced out by the Shinigami because they became hybrids? I understand the source of this information's Isshin in Chapter 188 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/09/). Is the original any clearer?

Lastly, when Kenpachi spoke of Urahara receiving orders from Yama-jii in Chapter 298 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/298/12/) and again in Chapter 314 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/314/17/), is there any indication of how many total tasks Urahara was assigned? The most descriptive I've seen is "few," which generally means 3-5 items. I know representing numbers, units, and counting between languages can be a bit tricky, so I thought perhaps the Japanese's different.Any help would be much appreciated! Though the second one may be pointless in light of recent 316 spoilers. :p

[Lady Scaper]

Guildenstern and Heofon thank for clearing up some of that flowery language. If it's not a shojo don't make it a shojo. Dang those translations really help. this is why I appreciate threads like this.

Guildensetrn I would really appreciate you pointing all this flowery language that isn't really there, so please do it.

[heofon]

You really wanna know my true opinion?

It's because Westerners can't resist the allure of the love story. I remember how pissed off I got at people translating Urahara's 'Emotion is stronger than steel' line into 'Love is stronger than steel'. I went off on a tear about it that lasted like 20 minutes-- looking back on it, I must have been hilarious to those sitting around me and Ros at the time. But the point I was trying to make still holds true-- Western fans like to amp up the 'romance' angle because we love that shit. You'll often find in translated manga or even books, movies, etc, that when it's brought over even one-sided loves or crushes are translated to be a just a touch more dramatic than they are in the source languages, because Westerners can't bear the idea of someone going begging for a love connection even though they 'deserve' or have 'earned' one through pining after the object of their affection-- and sometimes it colors the translation.

I agree. Our Western ideas of love and romance is much different than the Japanese equivalents and we impose our world views onto the text. It shouldn’t really matter since we’re talking about just a shounen manga here, but it pains me to see a manga worth more than just the pretty pictures being treated so callously. Kubo Tite seems to have a real hand (and pen) for bringing out the duality of the story, the teen adventure on one hand and the deeper undertones that make fairytales so fascinating for adults on the other. Rukia and Renji’s side-story is an outstanding piece for me in that respect, almost every sentence has multiple facets and readings (though Ichigo and Rukia are so full of murky backstories they come in even). I’m not asking the translators to knock it off with bringing out the romance potentials (they’re packing in a lot of work into this after all), I’d just like to see the other options left open for the more discriminating readers out there.


Edit: About the yaoi thing... Me and Ros-the-epic-roommate reached the consensus long ago that if Rukia were a man, Bleach would be the most popular yaoi/BL action manga EVER.

It's funny 'cause it's true.

Lmao, so true. Rukia seems androgynous to the point of being made intentionally unattractive (at least in the stereotypical sense) and then reverts back into a more classic feminine persona whenever it suits the author. Given those and other gender ambiguous elements of Bleach, the story really stands out among the more classis shounen. Actually, I recall reading a fanfic that vaguely followed the man-Rukia idea, in a twisted way, even if without either yaoi or feminist undercurrents: http://thewritegirls.populli.net/afrai/idiot.html . (I have no idea if you’re familiar with it, though I’m guessing you’re very well might be...) What I liked the most about it was the pieces around the (rather straight) narrative focus – just how exactly did the author intend to fit Renji into a white virgin dress and lock him up in a white tower, while having Ichigo battle monsters (and don heroic attire) just to reach the said tower, on the way facing off a pissed off Rukia (an evil witch or a jealous suitor?)

Anyway though... *cough*

And even though I’m not Guildenstern - :p – I’ll try to bring in my RenRuki translations analysis into this topic. I’ve put in a lot of time into that one, so I’d be happy (not to mention downright beaming) if it helped others enjoy the story more.

As for Yoruichi and Isshin (I only have time and sort of interest for those two):

Yoruichi - - - ‘Even though I think it impossible, in order to watch out for this we/I/somebody (lol) have gone over (this).’(I’m guessing Urahara and Yoruichi discussed the possibility of Ichigo’s hollowification). The ‘mai’ ending keeps eluding me, but the present perfect tense and the preparatory aspect of ‘oku’ are pretty clear (and different from the scanslation).

Isshin – it’s impossible to say. And I don’t mean because the raws are poor quality, but rather that the sentence is constructed in such a way that there’s just no way of telling. So there's nothing to dig for in this one.

I tried my hand at translating ‘The Sand’ and ‘The Rotator’, just the poems around those chapters. The ones in the scanslations circulating the net just seemed to make very little overall sense.

If anyone notices any mistakes, please point them out.

The Sand
It’s rotating.
The world changes.
Every time it rotates and touches the moon and the sun,[1]
always it changes its form into something new.
If there’s one thing that doesn’t change,
it must be my powerlessness..
It’s rotating.
If destiny is like gears,
then we are grains of sand being crushed down in between. [2]
There’s nothing to be done.
I just want the power.
If I can’t protect even if I reach out,
I want a sword to grab before then.[3]
The power to crush destiny surely
resembles a sword being swung down.

[1]This was translated as ‘the sun and the moon touching each other’, but it just doesn’t make sense grammatically. It’s a subject-less sentence, but it’s the absent subject (the world? the destiny?) that does the touching.
[2] ‘hikikudaku’ – a combination of ‘knock down’ and ‘crush’. It’s the same ‘crush’ that is later used in ‘to crush destiny’, reversing the idea of Ichigo’s helplessness. Also, this sentence doesn’t sound too good, but I don’t really have a better idea.
[3] Whoever inserted ‘before her’ into the scanslation... ‘Sono saki ni’ means ‘before then’, as in ‘before that happens’. Not only there’s no ‘her’ in the text, but it also destroys the word play with the Rotator, where the word ‘saki’ is also used. ‘Saki’ is a twisted word that can indicate both the past and the future - it is the (time) before and the (path) ahead. So as I understand it, the path ahead Rukia followed led her to give Ichigo power before it was needed?

Original:
Kaiten shite iru
Sekai wa kawaru
Kaiten shi taiyou to tsuki ni fureru tabi
Tsune ni sono sugata o aratana mono e to kaete yuku
Kawaranai mono ga aru to sureba
Sore wa kitto ore no muryoku
Kaiten shite iru
Unmei ga haguruma da to iu no nara
Oretachi wa sono aida de hikikudakareru suna
Nasu sube wa nai
Tada chikara ga hoshii
Te o nobashitemo mamorenai nara
Sono saki ni nigiru yaiba ga hoshii
Unmei o kudaku chikara wa kitto
Furi orosareru yaiba ni nite iru

The Rotator

It is rotating.
If destiny is like gears,
then we are the reason that turns it.[1]
Believing in its flawlessness, we set forth
towards the power of the grinding gears.

[1]This is ‘reason’ as in ‘mental capacity’, not ‘cause’, I believe. To be honest, I’m not sure what image this is supposed to indicate. Anybody?
‘Kotowari’ – ‘logic, arrangement, reason, justice, truth’
‘Muketsu’ – flawlessness. It’s a combination of ‘mu’ – ‘not’ and ‘ketsu’ – lack, gap, fail’
‘Kamiau’ – to gear (engage) with; to bite each other
‘iku saki’ – the road ahead, the way forward; destination
So perhaps people are the design of the gears, the overall arrangement that allows them to set each other in motion? Believing that there are no gaps in that design, we set forth, thus both bringing about the power of the gears and getting caught between them?

Original:
Kaiten shite iru
Unmei ga haguruma da to iu no nara
Ware ware wa sore o mawasu kotowari
Muketsu de aru to shinjite susumu
Kamiau chikara no iku saki e

The impression I got was that it’s as if both Rukia and Ichigo are right, while both being also wrong – we are both that which the destiny grinds (the sand), and the force that sets it in motion (the rotator). Rukia gave Ichigo the sword and the power, changing his destiny, while at the same time getting ground up by forces out of her control. Thus Rukia went from being the rotator to being the sand, while Ichigo travelled in the opposite direction. I like this interpretation since it emphasises the parallels between the two poems.

Does anyone have any ideas about the moon and the sun? I’ve seen people saying that it’s Rukia and Ichigo, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense overall. Maybe it’s just the exchange of night and day, as the world rotates? Seems like a poetic overkill here though.

[Syn]

Well in SOULs and VIBEs, Kubo associated the sun and the moon with Ichigo and Rukia, I guess it's why the poem has been translated like this (because the main sense is that when the sand and the gear are together, they work hand in hand). I've also never thought that Ichigo became the rotator and Rukia the sand, because Ichigo's been clearly driven by Rukia who stayed the rotator, even if powerless.

I think if you want the most accurate translation for these, you should ask either pocketmofo or Melodymix who are both able to read Japanese fluently (pocket being more apt to translate while following the flow of the sentence and Melody giving more the whole sense of the text).