Ichigo's Vizard Mask, and the Nature of Vizards

[AnimeFanatic]

I wanted to point out a few conclusions I recently came to, after reading a post on here about Ichigo's Hollow mask.
First of all, I am certain that the growing amount of black on Ichigo's mask does not represent his growing mastery of his Vizard form.
I'm sure we would all agree, that among the Vizards, their leader Shinji must be the most powerful. And his mask is COMPLETELY white. Also notice that the Espada, in unreleased and released form, have completely white masks, or whatever parts they have in their release (Lupi's arms, Yammy's jaw, Ulquiorra's helmet, Grimmjow's panther release). Also notice that Ichigo's inner hollow is completely white.
If anything, the growing amount of black on Ichigo's mask is a countdown leading to the next time he has to face his inner hollow. Everybody remembers the episode where Ichigo conquers his inner hollow, who then states, 'you will have to beat me again to gain my full powers.'
Also, just in case anyone doesn't agree Shinji is the strongest Vizard, I want to bring up the episode where Ichigo's hollow went nuts, overwhelming and almost killing the little girl Vizard. All it took was Shinji's unreleased, unVizard form to break Ichigo's mask.

The discussion above isn't why I made this post though. My most interesting thought was about the nature of Vizards.
I believe that ALL of the Vizards contain Vasto Lorde or Adjudcas hollows within themselves. We learned already that Vasto Lordes and Adjucas only rise to their place from being a Gillian because they gain an individual consciousness. We also know that, without the Hoygoku (sp?), Vasto Lordes and Adjucas must constantly consume other Hollows or they will lose their individualism and de-evolve into Gillians, with no distinct controlling personality (little more than animals).
I believe somehow, that all the Vizards have a common connection of some sort that has allowed them to become hosts for the consciousness of 'dead' Vasto Lordes (or Adjucas). When these Vasto Lordes (Or Adjucas), for whatever reason, 'starved to death' because they could not cannbalize enough Hollows, they reverted into Gillians...but that individual consciousness didn't die. It stored itself within one of the Vizards. There is a TON of evidence for this theory if you look at Ichigo's conversations with his inner hollow, especially early in the series. It would also COMPLETELY explain Ichigo's inner hollow's motivations to take over Ichigo's body.
There are many other little points that would support my theory, but I know that if everyone thinks about it for a second it is very legitimate possibility.

Thanks for reading my first post! Let me know what you think!

[Tomodachi69]

If anything, the growing amount of black on Ichigo's mask is a countdown leading to the next time he has to face his inner hollow. Everybody remembers the episode where Ichigo conquers his inner hollow, who then states, 'you will have to beat me again to gain my full powers.'

The *chapters*? xp
Anyway, Shirosaki stated that he would allow Ichigo to be the "King" of his soul (Ichigo's), but if he (Ichi) ever faltered, Shirosaki would rise up to knock him down and take over because he doesn't want a weak ruler. He doesn't want to be submissive to a weakling. He never states that he must be defeated again in order for Ichigo to use his powers.

Also, just in case anyone doesn't agree Shinji is the strongest Vizard, I want to bring up the episode where Ichigo's hollow went nuts, overwhelming and almost killing the little girl Vizard. All it took was Shinji's unreleased, unVizard form to break Ichigo's mask.

We only saw Shinji do that, in the first place. We don't know if anyone else would be able to break his incomplete mask. Therefore, I don't believe that that alone can determine Shinji's position as 'leader' or 'strongest'.

The discussion above isn't why I made this post though.

Then why'd you include it? xp

My most interesting thought was about the nature of Vizards.

I believe that ALL of the Vizards contain Vasto Lorde or Adjudcas hollows within themselves. We learned already that Vasto Lordes and Adjucas only rise to their place from being a Gillian because they gain an individual consciousness. We also know that, without the Hoygoku (sp?) Hougyouku ^^-b, Vasto Lordes and Adjucas must constantly consume other Hollows or they will lose their individualism and de-evolve into Gillians, with no distinct controlling personality (little more than animals).

I believe somehow, that all the Vizards have a common connection of some sort that has allowed them to become hosts for the consciousness of 'dead' Vasto Lordes (or Adjucas). When these Vasto Lordes (Or Adjucas), for whatever reason, 'starved to death' because they could not cannbalize enough Hollows, they reverted into Gillians...but that individual consciousness didn't die. It stored itself within one of the Vizards. There is a TON of evidence for this theory if you look at Ichigo's conversations with his inner hollow, especially early in the series. It would also COMPLETELY explain Ichigo's inner hollow's motivations to take over Ichigo's body.
There are many other little points that would support my theory, but I know that if everyone thinks about it for a second it is very legitimate possibility.

Thanks for reading my first post! Let me know what you think!

Your theory of consciousness being transferred and suspended in a sort of limbo until able to occupy someone is interesting, however, what 'evidence' are you talking about? Can you cite exact quotes and chapters in which this 'ton of evidence' is present because I honestly don't recall Kubo hinting at Shirosaki being a VastroLorde.

I'd say that Shiro is VastroLorde level, but remember, VastroLordes are Menos, which are formed from multiple hollows, which is impossible for the Vaizards.

[Rain]

Interesting ideas and good first post, but I disagree with most of it, sorry:D

I will agree that i think shinji is (currently) the strongest vizard, but making a connection between mask color and power of any sort is a bit of a leap at this point in time. Ichigo's mask got a new strip/line whenever he was saved by his inner hollow, it has nothing to do when he must fight his inner hollow.

We also have no clue how hard it is to break a mask, so that won't convince people shinji is the strongest.

A menos' de-evolving back into a gillian has little to do with the hougyoku. As long as that menos becomes an arrancar they don't seem to have to keep consuming other hollows.

Tomodachi69 already said my next point, but an inner may be on the same level of strenght as any menos (but i highly doubt it) but they can't be menos'. Based on their conversations I'll say that Ichigo's inner hollow being super-strong (comparable to a menos) is a possibility, but he is not a menos at all.

Very interesting stuff overall:D

[Jaina]

The mask stripes continued to grow even before Ichigo ever began working to control his mask--that is, they grew even when he was closer to losing control. So control != stripes. It may be a marker of the growing hollow power in him,, whether he's using it or not...or maybe it's just KT being symbolic. Or something else. Who knows.

[AnimeFanatic]

Interesting points; thank you for the feedback. I agree that my conclusion of Ichigo's mask might very well be erroneous.

But I think my point about Vizards was correct, and in the replies I see I have not made myself clear.

In the bleach manga here are some quotes I want to cite:
'Menos are conglomerations of hundreds of normal hollows, resulting in a single composite entity of far greater strength than any normal hollow'
Bleach manga volume 6, chapter 48, page 9
'Menos are created when the void within an ordinary hollow's heart becomes so substantial that human souls are incapable of sustaining it, at which point it begins devouring fellow hollows. These cannibal hollows are attracted to one another, and a mass inter-devouring follows, resulting in a gillian'
Bleach manga; chapter 284, pages 5 and 6
'Though gillains usually have no personality to speak of, one of the many hollows that comprise it may retain control over the new entity, reflected in the unique mask it wears in comparison to a normal gillian.'
Bleach Hollow Wiki
'Adjuchas-class menos are much smaller in population compared to the gillian class, due to the rarity of any one hollow being capable of overwhelming the many other hollows that comprise the body of a gillian. Furthermore, the adjuchas must continue to devour hollows, or its mind will be absorbed by the hollows comprising its form and it will revert back into a gillian. The subsequent lack of an individual will also preclude the reverted gillian from becoming an adjuchas again.'
Bleach manga; chapter 284, pages 8 and 9

Also, I am not sure where I saw or heard it, but I believe the Hougyouku is not just used by Aizen to create new Arrancar. I believe it also confers the energy needed by the current Espada to maintain their Adjudcas or Vasto Lorde status without having to continually eat other Hollows (like they would have to normally).

The point I was trying to make was...what happened before Aizen and the Hougyouku? What happened to a Vasto Lorde or an Adjudcas that was unable to consume enough souls?
Well, they de-evolve into a Gillian, and lose the dominance of one individual consciousness.
My point only was that I believe that those individuals, upon dissolution into a Gillian, did not 'die'. I believe they were transferred into Vizards.
Oh, and the hollow inside Ichigo MUST be a Vasto Lorde. There is no possible stronger hollow than a Vasto Lorde. What good would a weak-ass non-Espada level hollow do to increase a Vizard's power?

[Rain]

Just because a vasto-lorde is the strongest known form of menos doesn't mean that Ichigo's inner hollow is one

I guess what this semi-debate will come down to is the inner hollow. You feel that the inner hollow is an actual hollow that was once in hueco mundo, whereas I feel that it isn't an actual hollow (it was never alive in hueco mundo or anything).

That theory with the hougyoku and energy transferring is interesting, I hope we see more about the hougyoku being brought up in the manga soon

[aznxenocide]

Interesttinnggg....

Awesome first post, dude, Welcome to BA! :p

So then, would his inner hollow be the consciousness that didn't fully die out? And if that were the case, how would you explain Ichigo's initial shinigami transformation?

And I believe that the strength of the Vaizards comes from the union of hollow and shinigami powers, much like how the Arrancar derive their powers from a union of hollow and shinigami powers. Maybe on it's own, Ichigo's inner hollow isn't actually that powerful...after all, Shinji was able to destroy the mask by merely tapping it.

Still, it's a unique perspective, one that I haven't considered. Astute, dude. :p

[Ulquiorra]

eeh i disagree for the most part. Clearly in the past, the more black Ichigo has on the mask the stronger he's become. We see another stripe being added to the mask during the fight with Ulquiorra, and immediately after that Ichigo could hold the mask indefinitely against Grimmjow. That most likely isnt mere coincidence.

and your theory on Vastelords and Ajuuca's is interesting, but there's hardly any evidence at all in the manga to point this out. It's a theory, and an interesting one, but with hardly any facts to back it up.

[Chill0]

a vastrolord is a being composed of many hollows/souls. the strong/special entities occupy the soul/thoughts of the being. so sure shirosaki might just be such an entity and yes some vizards might have a soul that is capable of taking charge of such a super being(if absorbed by it in gillian form). still theres no evidence that the inner hollow is not from the vizards own soul. as its now it is a part of the vizards soul. its a fun idea but what purpose would there be to the story to have it set up like that?

[Llama]

Ichigo's hollow isn't a Menos. He's only one hollow. So he's not in any of the three classes of a Menos. And I don't believe hollow Ichigo is as strong or stronger then a Vastro Lorde. Hollow Ichigo is just as powerful as regular Ichigo. Only reason he seems stronger is because of his instinct. And the reason why hollow Ichigo is so much more powerful then a normal hollow is because he's part of Zangetsu. What's going to make Ichigo so powerful is him using 100% power of old man Zangetsu, 100% power of hollow Ichigo, and 100% power of his own strength. Can't wait to see that.

And I don't think Ichigo and hollow Ichigo will fight again, though I do believe they will meet again since hollow Ichigo did say, "If you really want intend to have control over my power...Then, until I decide to appear the next time...DO YOUR BEST NOT TO DIE...TAKE CARE, GOT IT!?"

[AnimeFanatic]

2 quick things

I agree Ulquiorra, that as Ichigo's mask turns more black he is growing in strength. I simply think that once his mask is fully black, he will have that second encounter to control all of his inner hollow's power. It's like a countdown timer, you know? And then I postulate that Ichigo's mask will become completely white once he can use it to its fullest, because I see that powerful Vizards like Shinji have an all white mask, and actual Hollows, particularly Espada have a white mask. Doesn't that seem like having a white mask would mean complete mastery of everything hollow?

Second, I'm not saying that Ichigo's inner hollow is a 'dead' Vasto Lorde. I am simply saying that the individual entity within the menos (that was so incredibly strong that it forced the gillian's evolution) escaped from the menos as it de-evolved from a higher level back into a Gillian, and somehow that Vizards are used as containers for those escaped consciousnesses. I think the connection is Kisuke Urihara...somehow.
So basically, I'm not saying its a menos anymore. But it was formerly part of a menos of Adjudcas or Vasto Lorde status that escaped its prison of beng a menos. Think of it...how power hungry is Ichigo's inner hollow? It makes sense that the dominant consicousness of such a powerful menos, if they were aware of a technique by which they could acquire even greater power than being an Adjudcas or Vasto Lorde...especially because they could acquire that greater power without having to worry about the multitude of other consciousnesses within itself waiting to seize control...why wouldn't that Hollow go for it? I see Vizards as a chance for the dominant consciousness of an Adjudcas or Vasto Lorde to seek even greater power through an entity they could control without having to constantly contend with the other power hungry Hollows. Think of it...in a Vasto Lorde, how many thousand upon thousand hollows might be contained within? How hard is it to maintain that dominance? It is only by constantly consuming other Hollows that the upper level menos have enough power on hand to constantly subdue the multitude of hollows within them.


So...if you were a Vasto Lorde that discovered a means by which you could transfer your consciousness into another container...one with the potential to have a far greater natural power than the one you currently possessed...and the only catch was that you had to fight him and fight his Zanpaktou's spirit for dominance....that sounds like a great deal to me. Albeit, I will admit, the greedier the menos was, the stronger of a Vizard soul they would target. I feel pretty confident that later within the series we will encounter a Vizard or two that lost the battle with their inner hollow. But the question is...what do Shinigami who lose the battle to their inner Hollow become?

I brought up the Hougyouku because of the fact that I thought somewhere that I read that it supplied the Espada with the energy needed to maintain their Adjudcas and Vasto Lorde level without consuming other Hollows.
The primary purpose of transferring into the soul of a shinigami who could potentially become a Vizard is following:
1. Get away from the risk of constantly needing to feed in order to fight off the bloodthirsty rivals who would rather 'be the king and not the horse carrying him'.
So, with the arrival of the Hougyouku, the purpose is completely eliminated.
See, the Hougyouku allows Aizen to essentially create Hybrids without any struggle for dominance.
But what if someone had the same idea before the Hougyouku was there?

Until now, I have been classifying inner hollows as Vasto Lordes or Adjucas's. Now I want to advance another possible theory: That all inner hollows, for whatever their strength level, are previously the dominant consciousness of an Adjucas Class Menos
I think that Vizards might be the rite of passage to become Vasto Lordes.
In particular, this is a theory I haven't advanced yet either...but does anyone know how an Adjudcas Menos becomes a Vasto Lorde? It is as yet unexplained. But we do know that Vasto Lordes are the most powerul and specifically, the most human looking... What if the requirement to become a Vasto Lorde was to transcend oneself into a Shinigami (potential Vizard) and then take him over? Hmm....Vasto Lordes are extremely mysterious...we don't know how they come into being...yet we know they are the most human looking, the most powerful, and the most intelligent...and that single Hollows, and even Gillian class menos' are little more than bloodthirsty, unaware beasts....
Anyway, I hope all the viewers enjoy spending some time ruminating on these thoughts

[Ulquiorra]

actually, it's the exact opposite for Espada. When they're at full power they lose their masks completely. Grimmjow's jawbone mask disappeared when he released Pantera, and Szyael's glasses disappeared when he released. So for them, full power is the absolute removal of the mask. Vaizards, on the other hand, are completely opposite. They're at full power when they put on the mask. Hyori has those diamond dots on her mask, and she beats around Shinji all the time. The only reason she was on the verge of dying at Hollow Ichigo's hands were because she was caught completely by surprise at the power of Shirosaki. Had she been ready for it, I'm sure she would have had no problem dealing with half-masked Ichigo. Hyori doesnt have a completely white mask, and she's the defacto "leader" of the Vaizards, with Shinji as the second in command. It's not up to us to say Shinji is the strongest, as we've seen neither Hyori nor Shinji go all out against an opponent. On top of that, another one of the Vaizards may be the strongest, just not the best leader. Take that green-haired girl, for example. She can hold her Hollow mask for 15 hours, and never had to take the endurance training. She could plausibly be the strongest, but no one would ever make her the leader...look at the way she acts >.>

[Rain]

Ohhh, now i get what your theory was/is. Its not a menos just the conscious of a former advanced-menos. thats really interesting stuff:D

Same thing with the mask theory, its really interesting.

I hope we get some new info some that way these ideas can be further explored:cool:

Ulquiorra- the masks change yes, but they weren't gone at all. in fact, based on size, they grew

[tari101190]

actually, it's the exact opposite for Espada. When they're at full power they lose their masks completely. Grimmjow's jawbone mask disappeared when he released Pantera, and Szyael's glasses disappeared when he released. So for them, full power is the absolute removal of the mask. Vaizards, on the other hand, are completely opposite. They're at full power when they put on the mask. Hyori has those diamond dots on her mask, and she beats around Shinji all the time. The only reason she was on the verge of dying at Hollow Ichigo's hands were because she was caught completely by surprise at the power of Shirosaki. Had she been ready for it, I'm sure she would have had no problem dealing with half-masked Ichigo. Hyori doesnt have a completely white mask, and she's the defacto "leader" of the Vaizards, with Shinji as the second in command. It's not up to us to say Shinji is the strongest, as we've seen neither Hyori nor Shinji go all out against an opponent. On top of that, another one of the Vaizards may be the strongest, just not the best leader. Take that green-haired girl, for example. She can hold her Hollow mask for 15 hours, and never had to take the endurance training. She could plausibly be the strongest, but no one would ever make her the leader...look at the way she acts >.>
this is a good theory but is clearly wrong...szayel and grimmjow are the only arrancar so faar whose partial masks have disspeared completely when released, well edorads partial mask dissapeared aswell...but the nine other arrancar who have released have ha their masks fragments grow to cover more of their face as a mask so this theory is kinda flawed (just look at the chapters and episodes to see their releases). btw even edorad, grimm and szayel don't necassarily have their masks completely dissapear, cos once they are gone they gained another mask fragment around their faces; grimms is on his forehead, szayels is behind his head coming to the side of his face and edorads is at the side of his face. the vaizards masks can't be evolving to white cos ichigo's did the opposite and yet he gained more control, so that should disprove that theory.

the colours of the vaizards masks don't mean anything at all obviously...not all hollows (or vaizards or arrancar) have coloured masks anyway. ichigo's mask did gain more black lines after a while, ubut just to show his hollow side was growing. once he got his mask after the vaizard training, it hasn't gained more colour or lines. it has looked slightly more black, but that is probably just an illustratin inconsistancy, you can't draw it perfectly the same each time really, espeically at all these different angles...half the mask is just coverd in black lines close together thats all now.

the theory by AnimeFanatic i dnt agree with really. we've seen how ichigo gained his hollow. his chain of fate eroded so his body was transforming into a hollow. a natural, normal process, nothing speical. his will power to stop turning into a hollow made the mask form b4 his body transformed, again this isn't that weird, it just shows he was fighting to not let his body transform. anyway then released his 'shinigami powers' right in the middle of his hollow transformation. his inner world was crazy cos his inner spirit was coroding like his body was meant to creating shirosaki, but cos he released zangetsu first, zangetsu became the dominant half of zangetsu. shirosaki and zangetsu are he same person remember, it is stated alot in those vaizard training chapters/episdes. so ichigo became a shinigami instead of a hollow, but his hollow part still lingered in his inner self(which is zangetsu...which is also shirosaki), so as he kept using zangetsu's power, shirosaki started to come out more cos as he released zangetsu, he released shirosaki too (thats why the mask kept showing up, and growing lines).

eventually he learn't bankai so he could ffully release zangetsu, which in a way mean't he fully released shirosaki, thats why shirosaki surfaced and took over when he was fightin byakuya. after that shirosaki could come oout easier than b4 cos ichigo fully realeased zanetsu/shirosaki now from learning bankai. so shirosaki could even surface when ichigo was in shikai (like against hiyori and that bounto guess). when ichigo went tto his inner world to see zangetsu, he saw shirosaki instead cos shirosaki became the dominant half of zangetsu now, and defeating shirosaki allowed ichigo to use his power properlly without interuptions like hirosaki coming out from doing getsuga tenshou (releasing his zanakuto power more).

so ichigo is in control of his power again, but shirosaki is still probably the dominant side of zangetsu cos ichigo still frequently uses his hollow powers. thats also why ichigo's inside bankai coat is white instead of black, to show shirosaki is dominant instead of zangetsu.

so ichigo's hollow can't be any sort of menos either, or its conciousness...ichigo's hollow is just a normal hollow born from ichigo's inner spirit eroding become heatless. a menos is a fusion of lots of hollows, and one of those hollows can surface his conciousness becming self aware in his new menos form. thats explains why szayel and ilforte can be real brothers, they were both human, who both became hollow, who both fused with hollows to become menos, who both became self aware in their own menos bodies.

[AnimeFanatic]

Tari,
I mean this in a non insulting way... but you obviously need to spend some time thinking of your posts before you put them up.
If you look at your points about Ichigo's hollow mask... I made those points already, and everything else you said was erroneous. I am simply saying that Ichigo's hollow mask is in it's 'first' level. That is why the black coloration is growing. And when it is completely black, Ichigo will have to fight his inner hollow again, to gain complete mastery of his hollow's powers. Then I believe Ichigo's Hollow mask will be completely white.

Secondly, your criticism of my theory makes absolutely no sense. Did you even read and/or comprehend the thread before posting? I would appreciate it if you did next time, because your statements don't really amount to anything. It is not a 'natural and normal' process for Ichigo to have his Chain of Fate severed in the Underworld of Urihara's shop. Do we even know the processes by which a soul will undergo Shinigamification outside of Soul Society's rules? No... we don't... so why would you call Ichigo's path to Shinigamification 'natural and normal?'

Furthermore, what do you even mean by the statement, ' Ichigo's hollow is just a normal hollow?' Do you even understand the theory that I am trying to put forth?
Basically, Shirosaki fits perfectly into my theory because he is trying to usurp Zangetsu's position since Zangetsu is Ichigo's physical manifestation of his spiritual power. What better position could any Hollow exploit than the domination of a Shinigami's Zanpaktou?
so ichigo's hollow can't be any sort of menos either
What do you even mean by that idiot? please try and further your personal understanding of this manga series before you put in the two cents you think are important..............'ichigo's hollow is just a normal hollow born from ichigo's inner spirit'... what the hell do you even mean? EVERY hollow is born from some human's inner spirit...
Furhermore, my theory concerns that fact that Vizards and Urihara might be the connection necessary between Adjudcas and Vasto Lorde menos.

Furthermore...please try and review the concept of a Menos more...then perhaps you will have a slightly better understanding of what I am trying to say. You focus on the dominance between Zangetsu and Shirosaki... and that is the stupidest focus you could have. Shirosaki is competing with Zangetsu is only a ploy to gain control of Ichigo....'

And last point douche bag....... I know that a menos is a fusion of hollows. if you understood my entire post, which you obvously didnt read...then you would realize that I see Vizards as the reincarnated aspects of previous Menos Hollows.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CAN SOME SENIOR MODERATORS COMMENT AND GIVE ME FEEDBACK ON THIS IDEA? I had at least assumed your 'veteran' members would at least be smarter than to leave me stupid feedback

[tari101190]

And last point douche bag....... I know that a menos is a fusion of hollows. if you understood my entire post, which you obvously didnt read...then you would realize that I see Vizards as the reincarnated aspects of previous Menos Hollows.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CAN SOME SENIOR MODERATORS COMMENT AND GIVE ME FEEDBACK ON THIS IDEA? I had at least assumed your 'veteran' members would at least be smarter than to leave me stupid feedbacki dunno if you have anger management or wateva...but you shouldn't call names on forums, whats the point? its kinda childish and stupid...

anyway i read your first post when you first made the thread. why would someone comment in a post without reading the first post? anyway...i read your theory and said its good, when i read theories i first ignore things that arn't disproven just to see if the theor makes sense or to see how the person came up with it, then i go and see which parts are disproven so wouldn't make sense, then i post my opinion. i didn't post earlier basically cos your post had alot of things that didn't really make much sense so i didn't really know what to write as a response, but i thought i should write that stuff from my other post.

like the info you wrote in your first post doesn't make sensee cos shirosai didn't say you have to fight me again...and anyway why would he have to fight him again if he just fought him to control his power, he doesn't have any issues with shirosaki anymore.

the thing about the clour counting down makes even less sense. cos the mask statrted off mostly white, and as his hollow got 'stronger' in a sense, the coulor increaed, i don't see why the colou would start receeding now after ichigo has full acess (or close to it) to his hollow powers, the only issue he has/had with them is how lng he can keep the mask on.

i tried to explain the process of how ichigo's hollow was made, that wasn't a theory, thats what clearly happened from the manga. the part about how shirosaki came out and stuff and the nature of who/what he is is a theory baased on facts from the manga too. shirosaki states that he is zangetsu many times in chapter 218 so check the chapter for more detail, along with other parts.

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/6941/m7bleachch21818uu1.th.jpg (http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m7bleachch21818uu1.jpg)

and when a menos stops consuming other hollows they revert back to gillian and lost that conciousness that they had, that hollow doesn't die, they just become a dumb gillian again not self-aware at all. the conciousness originally came from one of the hollows who was apart of that menos. the theory on the reincarnation of the menos's mind doesn't make sense cos of this.

and btw i don't know what you mean from the part i quoted from you, but for you information i didn't eave you negeitive feedback, i dn't really see the point. and if you didn't mean that then i dnt see why your getting upset cos i dnt agree with your post...when i post ia theory its not to say 'i'm right so think this too', i post a theory to say my ideas, then change them depending on others comments if they make sense too.

[Rain]

Wow, AnimeFanatic, you might want to calm down a little before posting. Calling peoples ideas stupid and calling them douchebags isn't allowed on this forum (as far as I know) its probably an easy way to get banned.

Tari disagrees with your ideas so instead of insulting him maybe you could try to discuss the points you see differently and reach some understanding.

[RipTide]

Animefanatic, your theory is interesting but I have to agree with most people replying... its wrong and no real proof.

1) Ichigo's mask, I believe was originally all white and got marks as he gained in power. I'll have to check the manga again, but I believe it was all white. So, you can't say his mask is going from white to half white half black then back to completely white - it doesn't make sense. I believe once his mask is half and half he will attain full power and I also think this is where KT is relating to the Yin and the Yang. Your question would be "then why does all the other Vaizards' mask be all white and ichigo's is different?", I don't know. Only KT knows that question and before all it all ends I am sure we will find out. I can throw a theory as to why Ichigo is different. Find all the post about theorys in regards to Ichigo's dad and mom and the King of SS.

2) Hollow Ichigo, stated that ichigo and him are one, therefore you cannot say hollow Ichigo is a remeness of a powerful vastrolorde hollow. Therefore if Ichigo's hollow side is a what you are concluding to:
I am simply saying that the individual entity within the menos (that was so incredibly strong that it forced the gillian's evolution) escaped from the menos as it de-evolved from a higher level back into a Gillian, and somehow that Vizards are used as containers for those escaped consciousnesses. I think the connection is Kisuke Urihara...somehow.

then Ichigo's hollow isn't one with Ichigo. I find it irrational with no logic. I think clearly it has been stated in the manga, like Zengatsu, Ichigo's hollow side is part of him. So my guess is its another analogy from KT in regards to the Yin and Yang. Zengatsu is Ichigo's Shinigami side powers and Shirosaki is Ichigo's Hollow side powers, put the two together and as Ichigo gains more understanding/control over both sides of his powers, it becomes the Yin and the Yang. Is it just me or don't anyone see this by KT? I believe Ichigo's hollow has nothing to do with Menos type hollows that have been seen through out the manga but rather a hollow of a different nature that signifies what I have been stating above, but the only person who can clear it up is KT.

3) Shinji has not been proven to be the strongest Vaizard. There just aren't enough facts and KT has not delve into them much yet. Perhaps in the next arc we will learn more about the Vaizards.

4) Lastly, your theory is not bad and everyone who replied has commented as such. But you also have to really look at the majority of the posts, everyone disagrees with you. Doesn't that say something? but then again you are entitled to your opinions and theories.

Lastly, no one really knows anything about anything yet until KT goes into detail about it. So we all can hypothesize, fabricate, and make theories about things that have not been proven yet. So we should all just think our thoughts and let the story be told and explain by KT.

Nuff said.

[Primera Espada]

fist, the mask thing.

We've seen no indication that his mask is increasing in stripes anymore. Since his obtaining it, he has used it several, SEVERAL times, and no more stripes have appeared. That indicates that it will not alter anymore. Even if there *IS* an inevitable showdown, it won't be indicated by the stripes.

second, the inner hollow thing.

While it's entirely possible that vaizards are purified hollows (remember, if they were good in life, they go to soul society after being killed) and therefor possibly purified menos of any level, this removes Ichigo from the frame. The problem with reincarnation in the bleach world is that when a soul dies, it's soul body breaks apart, and only the inner core is left behind (Kaien explains this, and Aizen's description of how the body is made up is discussed in the chapter where he reveals the hou gyoku). Given this fact, power (like hollow power) would not be transferred. So Ichigo wouldn't be a reincarnation of a hollow of any type.

Furthermore, we are given NO reason to believe that shawlong is wrong in how menos work. Furthermore, Urahara states that Ichigo forms his mask first, before his hollow hole (if you think about it, he was becoming a vaizard then) because of his high resistance. This clearly indicates that anyone with high resistance, when becoming a hollow, can stop the process before it overtakes them. There is *NO* indication that it's not a perfectly natural process to become a hollow, no indication that they are secretly part of menos.

Lastly, as others have pointed out, for your theory to be correct, we'd have to assume that the inverse Ichigo is NOT telling the truth.

There's no way for your theory to be correct.

Oh, and watch your mouth. Random curses here or there in response to a pic, issue, event, etc are sometimes tolerated, but directing them at our board members are not.