Orihime Character Development Thread

[debbiechan]

Ok, everybody. This is about the third or fourth time someone has tried to start such a thread, so play nice.

A few of us were speculating in this weeks chapter thread, the hereto "Orihime Character Development" thread of most recent days, about what Kubo may have in mind for Orihime. There's no arguing the fact that she's a widely unpopular character. I hope that the lastest polls will prove that not be the case but my perception is that on this board and others, Orihime dislike or at the very least, frustration with her character is at a peak.

Sometimes people indict the whole Hueco Mundo arc along with Orihime. I want to know what people think Orihime's role is, what it will be, and if Kubo has or hasn't been effective in sustaining our interest in the character or her story.

In the old thread, Ros wrote:

I don't think Kubo did a good job of making her feelings clear, because readers in the last few chapters have lost sympathy for her. To a lot of people she didn't come off as someone under a lot of stress who was losing her ability to cope--she came off as weak and willing to just stop thinking once Ichigo was in the room. The fact that she'd been so capable before made it almost worse, and I've heard people ask, "Are we supposed to be liking her right now? Does Kubo want us to feel she's doing a good thing or a bad thing?"

Lady Orihime wrote:


As to her saying Kurosaki-kun, last chapter she only yelled it because he got booted hard. The previous chapter, she was dealing with her inner turmoil with not being able to help him...I saw it as an unfinished thougt that might have ended like: "Kurosaki-kun...I'm sorry I can't help you"...and then she almost immediately went into worrying about Nel.

And I mean, this is really nothing new to me in manga, with the heroine thinking/saying the hero's name a lot during a troubled time; Kagome and even Kikyou say InuYasha' continuously when then are in trouble, etc, but I've never seen them get this kind of flak because of it.

Guildenstern wrote:
"Kurosaki-kun...I'm sorry I can't help you"

If only she had said this, it would make the phrase repetition a lot more..quantifiable I guess.
Unfortunately I shouldn't have to imagine additional words after Orihime's dialogue to make me not hate it.

I wrote:
I don't fault Kubo. I think he's been very good at showing us a completely frazzled Orihime. I think that's who she would be under these circumstances. From the moment she forgot to put up her shield to the moment she burst into tears saying "Please just don't get hurt anymore," I think she's been in character--albeit a sensitive character devastated by events, fears, and distractions.

What I do expect is that Kubo is pulling the timing trick. Show Orihime fail to power up or be proactive as in days of old and the moment she does, it will be all the more stunning and dramatic. I'm not one of those who has given up on her character and resigned her to being a damsel in distress cliche. The Orihime I remember was more than that--and as with Rukia who was a victim in SS and came back to kick some sense into Ichigo on Earth--Orihime will bounce back and be the team player she always was.


Nocturne wrote:
There's still a lot of time for character development to occur. What may have been 6 months to us of seeing Orihime in the manga really just shows a few hours in HM time. How many of us can say our character has shown development in a few hours? That's like me saying I resolve to change my work ethic in an hour subway ride in NYC. XD Also, if we go back to SS, the only time we really had major insight into Rukia's thoughts was during her flashback to Kaien. Orihime may have one chapter dedicated to that as well. Or maybe since this whole arc is centered around her, it will mean that her character development will be given to us in increments so lots of patience is required.

To the last point I'd like to respond that this is manga, not RL, and if realistic developments were to occur, Ichigo wouldn't learn ban kai in less than three days and characters wouldn't run around having epiphanies after fights (such as when Kenpachi realized he had been ignoring his sword spirit).

I don't fault Kubo for Orihime's character--I think he's showing us what we're supposed to see. I do fault his pacing. There are too many characters and subplots for him to emphasize one story but it appears to me that if Orihime's been onstage this long, something should've moved in her character by now. I'm frustrated.

Thoughts?

[Shadoblak]

I think Orihime's character development will continue like this until a second "end of hypnosis" type subplot, where all the characters realize something and a major shif occurs....Orihime's realization will no doubt involve the fact although she may love ichigo, there are bigger fish to fry and it very well may come down to her being able to destroy the Hyougoku, by herself...Hopefully she'll stop screaming "KUROSAKI KUN" since, while cute, doesnt really lend much to the idea that she's powerful and intelligent :p

[Jasse]

Well, I for one, thinks that Orihime has gotten only more popular...but this isn't what the thread is about.

I think Orihime will come to make an important decision by the time or when Uliq comes to the picture again, or when she or they reunite with Rukia and Chad.

Something is bound to happen to Orihime by the end of this arc, and yes, I think as the above poster mentioned, it'll be related to her love to Ichigo.
Grimmjaw mentioned that she's changing, a point that Kubo will explain further more when all the two battles finsih and Uliq comes by.

The pacing is just too slow i guess.

[WatanukiXXX]

Orihime's entire character arc i think, is about reaching a certain stage of enlightenment. Enlightenment or understanding of her relationship to and with Ichigo, of her role in the overall ryoka group.

Her personal development as Kubo has depicted it has been of a strong, determined and intuitive girl who in Ichigo's presence becomes a simpering wallflower. This has to change. Orihime has to get past this. The HM arc has made it painfully and ploddingly clear, in her current condition she makes a very incompatible and ineffective partner for Ichigo.

Also her preoccupation with getting stronger (in a fighting sense) despite Urahara and Hachi's advice to the contrary. Her reasons are incredibly shallow (compared to the others), she wants to be an effective fighter for the sake of a boy. Everyone else has their own ulterior reason but that is coupled with a strong intent to protect. Other than with Tatsuki early on, Orihime hasnt really shown us this 'other' underlying reason. it makes her seem almost self-centred.

So yeah personally Orihime is being set up to awaken to some truths about herself. The resolution of her character arc demands that she resolves her feelings for Ichigo and her cause(s) for fighting.

(I dont buy the 'Orihime destroys Hougyoku' theory. It's a red herring in my view, just like the Soukoku (sp). I think Aizen is far more interested in Ichigo's development as a perfect Hollow+Shinigami hybrid)

[Jasse]

Orihime has expressed her wish or vow for a better word of wanting to fight alongside Ichigo by the time she sees him again.

Well, she saw him, and that has yet happened. Ichigo vowed to protect Orihime and he did fulfill his vow(hence, his relief after the Grimmjaw fight).
Hopefully, she'll fulfill her vow in some way, I think by doing that, she'll come at better terms in her relationship with Ichigo, herself and overall role in the group.

[aznxenocide]

There's definitely still room for development. I agree with Guildenstern and Ros(encrantz). Much of what we've seen in this latest arc seems to mirror much of what we saw of Orihime in the Soul Society arc--namely, her inability to contribute much to the team, her feelings of powerlessness, etc etc. Much of what has been happening in this arc, and the series as a whole, seems to be building up to the opportune moment, as debbie said, when Orihime will realize her own potential and unleash an attack and resolution of hardcore bad assedness. Until then, we're just going to have to content ourselves with "Kurosaki-kun!" and "I'm...sorry..."

[Rain]

I am an Orihime fan, and I think that soon enough (In the story line, not our time) she is going to change/ or undergo a very large character development.

I feel that she is on the verge of changing right now, and that is what is causing all of her hesitance/fear and all the other emotions she has displayed latey. She has already had the realization that she needs to be stronger, she already has the desire to become stronger and soon enough she is going to become stronger.

I think that the main reason she hasn't changed yet is because Kubo is trying to show just how she needs to change.


Yes, this isn't in-depth, and is simple compared to other ideas, but it works:p

[NeoSapien]

I don't think it's that simple. Right now, Orihime could be fighting by Ichigo's side if Kubo wanted her to. Orihime is unlikely to encounter an Arrancar opponent weaker than Tesla or Lolly and Menoli, and she is still shown as powerless in comparison to them. Kubo is keeping her pathetically weak and powerless intentionally.

My personal theory is that Orihime will be overcome by the Hollow side of her powers and fall to the dark side in the climax of this arc. This is the game that Aizen is playing with her: he showed her the Hou-gyoku to give her a reason to want to stay in Hueco Mundo, perhaps to the point of battling her own friends. Such a battle, especially with Rukia, could awaken the Hollow side of Orihime that was hinted to exist when her powers were described as similar to Hachi's.

[Sidonzo]

She'll get powered up...or come to a realization of grand importance at some point. That is the name of the game in these types of stories. Personally I like my characters flawed. I LIKE the fact that she is a strong girl, except when around her crush. I was TOTALLY like that at her age. I was confident and capable when around my friends, but I became a mess when around my unrequited love. I love Orihime and she rings true to me. If she was a real person she wouldn't get her revelation for a few more years to come. XD

~Sid

[hyiceme]

Personally, I don't see how she can "power up" anymore than she is now, unless she becomes the final boss to fight at the end.....-___- but if anything were to happen to her power, I'd expect it to be more limited in what it can do, much like what Kubo's been doing in recent chapters.

As for her turning to the dark side...I don't really see that happening because if she can't even fight/hurt her enemies, how is she going fight her friends who have just sacrificed their lives to save her.

For her character development, I am going to agree with WatanukiXXX. So far, we haven't seen anything positive (for her character) to come out of this obsession, which leads me to think her development is more focused on herself as an individual rather than the love she has for Ichigo.

[Urazz]

Personally, I don't see how she can "power up" anymore than she is now, unless she becomes the final boss to fight at the end.....-___- but if anything were to happen to her power, I'd expect it to be more limited in what it can do, much like what Kubo's been doing in recent chapters.

As for her turning to the dark side...I don't really see that happening because if she can't even fight/hurt her enemies, how is she going fight her friends who have just sacrificed their lives to save her.

For her character development, I am going to agree with WatanukiXXX. So far, we haven't seen anything positive (for her character) to come out of this obsession, which leads me to think her development is more focused on herself as an individual rather than the love she has for Ichigo.
The only powerup I can see her getting is her hair pens becoming strong enough to not be destroyed easily like we have seen several times in the past. She has godlike powers but her hairpens which serves as the conduit to that power are easily destroyed like Tesla said recently when Orihime was thinking of fighting out against Tesla to help Ichigo with Noitora.

[Lady Scaper]

I htink it's going to be an internal development rather then her love for Ichigo. To be honest it hasn't really helped her much. I love when she is strong and a take charge kind of girl. Especially all she has been through basically raising yher self after losing her brother. I loved when she was first kidnapped, she didn't think about making too many waves so they wouldn't want to kill her. I mean she is surrounded by monsters and she can still keep her cool to the point of considering rejecting the hougyoku, right in the lions den makes me love Orihime! She is nice girl and no one hates her for that. I think it's great that she is nice girl and loves her friends.
I mean when Sora all hollowized wreaked havoc she had no qualms about defending her friends. I would imagine that would seriously hurt anyone./ i don't think I wouyld be able to fight or talk to anyone who I cared about died and came back a monster.

But then, then, then when she is around Ichigo all her resolve, her strength, her brainyness totally dissapears!!! How can a crush on a boy be so detrimental to someone. I mean rather then being all oh Kurusaki- Kun she should have been saying Ichigo, we need to haul ass Rukia is bleeding to death!! But up until now she hasn't said that!!! I mean she even saw when it happened. She is so totally star struck it's like all sense escapes the poor childs head. Even when lives are hanging in the balance. I mean come on.

Oh and I never thought of Orihime as an unpopular character.

[Lady Orihime]

So you're blaming Orihime for not getting Ichigo to "haul ass"? Ichigo felt their (Rukia and Chad) reiatsu's dropping, don't put all the blame on Orihime.

I'm sure there is a lot we weren't shown, and a lot of dialogue we didn't hear. She might have mentioned Rukia and Chad to Ichigo during the time she was healing Ichigo and Grimmjow.

They couldn't very well walk away after she healed Ichigo and Grimmjow. Ichigo needed to defeat Grimmjow so he could get away, or else have Grimmjow chasing their butts around Los Noches. They were on their way to Rukia and Chad (as Ichigo said, and notice how he said "I'm going to rescue Chad and Rukia") before [a stubborn] Grimmjow stopped them, and then Nnoitra and Tesla.

And the only time I would have considered her getting flustered (don't think she got "star struck") was when Ichigo picked her up. I would have also had my crush just suddenly threw me over his shoulder (actually did happen once when I was around 16, but he picked me up bridal style)

[Jasse]

I know its a bit offtopic.

I'm sure there is a lot we weren't shown, and a lot of dialogue we didn't hear. She might have mentioned Rukia and Chad to Ichigo during the time she was healing Ichigo and Grimmjow.



if she mentioned it, then Kubo would have told us, its not so hard for Kubo to draw some bubbles to indicate Orihime's inner monologue or thoughts, the same can be said about the other characters as well. One thought could suffice.
I don't fault or blame Orihime for not leaving the place, since Noitera was there all along and simply because she was necessary for explaining/narrating Ichigo's change of psychic during the fight.

[tofudtift1986]

There's no question that compared to the last arc I find this one pretty boring and part of that is due to the focus on Orihime's character. Granted I'm not a fan of hers and I think she's far too cliche for me to even grow accustomed to. Its just the slow pace Kubo is taking with her development and as a result, the arc as well. I understand that her unrequited love is supposed to serve as a character development device, but how long does it really take?

[Sarada]

First, I don't know why people complain about her "Kurosaki-kun!", as someone said, that's really what happens when the main character is fighting and his friends are looking at him fighting.

I don't see how her character has suffered in this latest arc. Did she really do that much in the previous arcs? I'm trying to recall what she actually did in the SS arc, other than the ocational healing, I can't come up with a lot. So why are people dissatisfied with her now? Even tho now her powers are stronger than ever, to the point of her acting as some kind of Dragon Ball. Is it the fact that she is the one who is getting attention now? She's the damsel in distress now, and suddenly we expect tons from her. Never mind that the previous damsel in distress didn't do anything for an entire arc. This damsel at least can heal (even if it is healing any Arrancar, wich we luv too) and has a potential use, with destroying the Hougyoku. Never mind that she likely won't ever get the chance, she has that goal, and is being manipulated with it.

She showed great spirit in slapping Ulquiorra too. Considering she watched him brutally kill those 2 shinigami's, so she knows his strength, and considering Ulquiorra is still an Arrancar, there's no way of telling how he'd react to any attack, even from her. So I think that took a lot of guts from her.

As for her inability to fight alongside her friends, it's very evident, only from the latest scene from the anime, where she was training with Rukia. With only one attack, she is extremely limited, add to that that her shield will only be usefull for long ranged attacks, since she would neither have the reflexes needed to act in time for a close range attack, nor will the shield work in a way to protect her from a punch or kick from someone standing right beside her. It feels very inadequate, and that small scene made it very clear she is never supposed to fight in her current state. In fact, she'd do better to become a shinigami ( or Arrancar for that matter), because she will at least have a sword for close range battle.

But then, then, then when she is around Ichigo all her resolve, her strength, her brainyness totally dissapears!!! How can a crush on a boy be so detrimental to someone. I mean rather then being all oh Kurusaki- Kun she should have been saying Ichigo, we need to haul ass Rukia is bleeding to death!! But up until now she hasn't said that!!! I mean she even saw when it happened. She is so totally star struck it's like all sense escapes the poor childs head. Even when lives are hanging in the balance. I mean come on.


Oh this brings back memories.

Not only would it have been impossible for her to 'haul' Ichigo to them, because obviously there was a faul tempered kitty around who wanted to fight him to the death, but do you seriously think it would be wise for her if she were to roam around on her own?

People forget that control room where Gin was watching them all, and the fact they can change the layout of the castle too from that room. Not to mention there are other Arrancar roaming around, and I doubt they'd be like "oh sure, go heal your friends!"

[Primera Espada]

The only real difference between her and rukia (remember, Rukia resigned herself to her fate, and still worried about her friends, and freaked out and collapsed when they got hurt, and so on and so forth) is that Rukia wasn't able to do anything. She had all her power lost. In this situation, Orihime has power.

But let's be honest, in both situations, power or no, the girl couldn't do anything. Tesla even points out that Orihime having a wonderful ability is the only reason she's not dead. Orihime has been frozen by fear, Rukia was frozen by guilt.

I honestly think that the lack of screentime played into rukia's favor. We only saw her immediate reactions, and when she finally was rescued for a moment, we saw maybe a couple chapters. When she was rescued agian, only a couple.

Orihime actually got to stay uncaptured for awhile, in manga time. People are mad at her, though honestly, they're just mad that she's not MORE than she is, and has been. I can't remember a time, other than perhaps the very start of the arrancar arc, where Orihime showed more inner dialogue, emotion, and etc.

People who complain about her growth are often blinded by the growth of the lead character. Ishida, Chad, and Rukia have barely had any growth at all.

[NeoSapien]

The only real difference between her and rukia (remember, Rukia resigned herself to her fate, and still worried about her friends, and freaked out and collapsed when they got hurt, and so on and so forth) is that Rukia wasn't able to do anything. She had all her power lost. In this situation, Orihime has power.
Yes, and that's the problem. Orihime has her full power available and is still helpless.


But let's be honest, in both situations, power or no, the girl couldn't do anything. Tesla even points out that Orihime having a wonderful ability is the only reason she's not dead. Orihime has been frozen by fear, Rukia was frozen by guilt.
Rukia never was in any position to fight, and even so she wanted to go back and help Ichigo when Renji was carrying her away. Rukia pointed out in 228 that it isn't those without power who are burdens, it's those who have no resolve to fight. Orihime has no resolve to fight. She is exactly the burden that she feared to become in 227 and 228.



I honestly think that the lack of screentime played into rukia's favor. We only saw her immediate reactions, and when she finally was rescued for a moment, we saw maybe a couple chapters. When she was rescued agian, only a couple.
That's quite true. Rukia didn't stand and watch Ichigo fight Renji and Kenpachi doing nothing but worrying for him and saying "Ichigo!" all the time. If she had, most of us would object to her portrayal as well. With Orihime, we've been stuck watching her do nothing for chapter after chapter.


Orihime actually got to stay uncaptured for awhile, in manga time. People are mad at her, though honestly, they're just mad that she's not MORE than she is, and has been. I can't remember a time, other than perhaps the very start of the arrancar arc, where Orihime showed more inner dialogue, emotion, and etc.
Yes! We're mad that Orihime isn't more than she is. She hasn't grown at all, despite promising to get stronger and fight by Ichigo's side instead of staring at his back. And Orihime only stayed uncaptured because there was no one around to capture her. As soon as an enemy not occupied by Ichigo showed up, instant capture. At this point, I have my doubts that she could handle Pesshe or Dondonchakka.

People who complain about her growth are often blinded by the growth of the lead character. Ishida, Chad, and Rukia have barely had any growth at all.
Oh yes they have. Everyone wanted to get stronger and trained Rukia overcame her personal demons and killed an Espada. Ishida regained his powers and beat two Arrancar. Chad greatly increased his powers and beat two Arrancar. Orihime... hasn't done anything except heal Arrancar and Ichigo (under Grimmjow's orders). Unlike the others, she hasn't fulfilled her desires and vows to get stronger and fight at Ichigo's side.

[Ileenka]

The only real difference between her and rukia (remember, Rukia resigned herself to her fate, and still worried about her friends, and freaked out and collapsed when they got hurt, and so on and so forth) is that Rukia wasn't able to do anything. She had all her power lost. In this situation, Orihime has power.

Powerless - reiatsu suppressed by collar.
Powerless - defenseless against Gin
Powerless - insisted Ichigo should go back and give her up
Powerless - tried to stop Byakuya from injuring Ganjuu
Powerless - tried to stop Byakuya from injuring Hanatarou

Dying on the Soukyoku - thanked everyone for their noble efforts
Dying on the Soukyoku - trying to force Ichigo to get away and stop getting hurt

Saved from execution - gave thanks for Ichigo being alright
Saved from execution - gave thanks for Renji being alive

Needless to say we know who is the girl captured.

Powerful - yet emotionally fragile, mentally weak and horribly selfish under all counts.
Powerful - stayed in her room crying while maybe, Tsubaki could've acted as a wall drill and let her loose to run to her friends.
Powerful - let herself being beaten around by two arrancar girls
Powerful - stayed around shivering while hot babe Nel gave her a pep talk.
Powerful - being the most powerful among her friends and understanding that, she still expects other people to escort her princess-style out of Las Noches.

Saved - worried about her weight on Ichigo's shoulders (I'll let her off a bit here, since a girl in love can be especially conscious about herself in front of the guy she likes, but nevertheless she is still pretty pathetic to me by displaying this quality non-stop. It is a very annoying and highly aggravating act and trait to have.)
Saved - I don't know, probably have sung a chorus of "Kurosaki-kun"s for 5 chapters now.



But let's be honest, in both situations, power or no, the girl couldn't do anything.

Wrong. Rukia did not have a choice. She was sentenced to death, all power was stripped from her.

Orihime is given a choice to stay put or to either do something, ANYTHING and prove her worth. She chose to sing a chorus of "Kurosaki-kun"s like one would in a karaoke bar.


Tesla even points out that Orihime having a wonderful ability is the only reason she's not dead.

I think it's safe to say nearly all of the characters in Bleach has a wonderful ability. It just depends who wants what and why, therefore elevating that character's status to a ridiculous priority. For example, you may need four screws to lock something into place. A screwdriver with a magnetic property would make things easier especially installing said device in cramped crevices. A tool like that may be common among a world of screwdrivers, and equally important as a hammer or a pair of pliers, but it's definitely what a handyman would choose to use in the right circumstances.

Orihime has been frozen by fear, Rukia was frozen by guilt.

I don't see how this can put one girl on top of the other. Given the circumstances, Orihime is likened to a Pentium 4 chip degrading into a 486SX system whereby she displayed much strength and spontaneous action, complete with wiser decision making in saving her friends, Chizuru and Tatsuki compared to current circumstances. This is the reason she is bluntly criticised and most, even if not all, of the reasons are justified.


I honestly think that the lack of screentime played into rukia's favor. We only saw her immediate reactions, and when she finally was rescued for a moment, we saw maybe a couple chapters. When she was rescued agian, only a couple.

Orihime actually got to stay uncaptured for awhile, in manga time.

And your point is? Probably trying to madden Rukia fans by saying, "Pfft - we don't even see Rukia that much, we get to see Orihime so much more."

It really depends on context. For example, bicycles, trishaws or the like are more common and everywhere in under-developed countries. You don't see Mercedes Benz-es all that much.

People are mad at her, though honestly, they're just mad that she's not MORE than she is, and has been. I can't remember a time, other than perhaps the very start of the arrancar arc, where Orihime showed more inner dialogue, emotion, and etc.

She's not MORE than anyone right now. Szayel has shown more depth of character in just a few chapters. To be honest, I think Nel might be the first one to properly steal a kiss from Ichigo in future chapters, because she has displayed a much attractive aura about her than our dear Miss Inoue.

The time where Orihime showed much more inner dialogue, emotion and the like are probably when she related her background tale to the readers; about Sora, Tatsuki, and so on. The start of the arrancar arc is just an annoying elaboration of how her one-sided puppy love comes playing to the story.


People who complain about her growth are often blinded by the growth of the lead character. Ishida, Chad, and Rukia have barely had any growth at all.

If you equate Rukia, Chad and Ishida on the same level, you are blinded by the growth of the Orihime goddess. 'Nuff said.

[Sarada]

Yes! We're mad that Orihime isn't more than she is. She hasn't grown at all, despite promising to get stronger and fight by Ichigo's side instead of staring at his back. And Orihime only stayed uncaptured because there was no one around to capture her. As soon as an enemy not occupied by Ichigo showed up, instant capture. At this point, I have my doubts that she could handle Pesshe or Dondonchakka.

Well what if she can't? Is she a bad character because she isn't suited for fighting?? Well she isn't, she wants to be, desperatly, but she just isn't. I believe it was Urahara who said so too, but not too sure it was him.

Oh yes they have. Everyone wanted to get stronger and trained Rukia overcame her personal demons and killed an Espada. Ishida regained his powers and beat two Arrancar. Chad greatly increased his powers and beat two Arrancar. Orihime... hasn't done anything except heal Arrancar and Ichigo (under Grimmjow's orders). Unlike the others, she hasn't fulfilled her desires and vows to get stronger and fight at Ichigo's side.

Well you can't expect an illogical fight every chapter, would you buy it if she killed Ulquiorra? I think not.

And she has progressed, she heals dead people, ya know.

Powerful - yet emotionally fragile, mentally weak and horribly selfish under all counts.

Selfish how?

Powerful - stayed in her room crying while maybe, Tsubaki could've acted as a wall drill and let her loose to run to her friends.

Smart move when El Quatro is hovering near your room all the time. And when he's not around, there's ample people who want to take a peek and possibly, no surely want to do more.

Powerful - stayed around shivering while hot babe Nel gave her a pep talk.

Because seeing your friend with a hollow mask is the most normal thing in the world, especially when you saw your brother become hollow.

Powerful - being the most powerful among her friends and understanding that, she still expects other people to escort her princess-style out of Las Noches.

She's not the most powerfull, she has a unique ability, but as for true fight, she is useless. You can't expect her to be superwoman because she has 1 ability.

Orihime is given a choice to stay put or to either do something, ANYTHING and prove her worth. She chose to sing a chorus of "Kurosaki-kun"s like one would in a karaoke bar.


Not only would it have been impossible for her to 'haul' Ichigo to them, because obviously there was a faul tempered kitty around who wanted to fight him to the death, but do you seriously think it would be wise for her if she were to roam around on her own?

People forget that control room where Gin was watching them all, and the fact they can change the layout of the castle too from that room. Not to mention there are other Arrancar roaming around, and I doubt they'd be like "oh sure, go heal your friends!"

[Ileenka]

Selfish how?

Selfish - just by thinking about only Kurosaki-kun, and not her other comrades who came to rescue her.
Selfish - just by never sparing a thought about any of her other comrades' safety, or even plan for them how the hell are they going to get out of Hueco Mundo.
Selfish - just by not sacrificing enough. To put simply, if I were to weigh what she has done vs what other people have done on a scale, her side of the scale would weigh so little it'll bounce off like a see-saw would when weight is lifted off the other.

Smart move when El Quatro is hovering near your room all the time. And when he's not around, there's ample people who want to take a peek and possibly, no surely want to do more.


Ishida has made a lot of smarter decisions in his entire career as the bean sprout Quincy. Dragging Ichigo away into open space to fight is a smart move. Running away from impossible fights and to focus on the mission is a smart move.

As for Ori, staying put when El Quatro has been zapped into oblivion, staying put when El Quatro was out fighting her beloved El Kurosaki-kun, staying put when El Sexta was fighting El Kurosaki-kun is annoying like a soldier doing nothing in battlefield.

Because seeing your friend with a hollow mask is the most normal thing in the world, especially when you saw your brother become hollow.

Oh~~

"My brother became a hollow. Don't worry, oni-san."

*hugs my Hollowfied brother with love*

*tears overflowing*

"You're always my brother, and I want you to know I love you for five livetimes. I mean, I'll love you forever."

I don't see how she is more fearful towards a half-hollowed Kurosaki-kun compared to her fully-hollowed brother.

She's not the most powerfull, she has a unique ability, but as for true fight, she is useless. You can't expect her to be superwoman because she has 1 ability.

Yep. Useless. Point proven. I don't know what were you trying to argue about.

[Lady Orihime]

if she mentioned it, then Kubo would have told us, its not so hard for Kubo to draw some bubbles to indicate Orihime's inner monologue or thoughts, the same can be said about the other characters as well. One thought could suffice.

No, not necessarily. The end of chapter 277, we were shown that Ichigo and Grimmjow were already in each other's faces with their swords drawn. The following chapter had Ichigo and Grimmjow fully healed...I find it hard to believe that they didn't speak at all during that time. I'm chosing to believe that Orihime asked about the others during this time; it's just in her nature. As to why Kubo didn't want to tell us, I believe he has an ulterior motive. I would have liked to have seen some conversation between Ichigo and Orihime about this situation, but Kubo wanted to get to Ichi vs. Grimm. I'm actually thinking with the way the story is going now, it'd just slow it down more. The focus right now is on Ichigo, the mystery of Nel, Nnoitra, Orihime, Tesla, and Halibel, her fraccion, and possibly Grimmjow if he is still alive :cry

[Sarada]

Selfish - just by thinking about only Kurosaki-kun, and not her other comrades who came to rescue her.
Selfish - just by never sparing a thought about any of her other comrades' safety, or even plan for them how the hell are they going to get out of Hueco Mundo.
Selfish - just by not sacrificing enough. To put simply, if I were to weigh what she has done vs what other people have done on a scale, her side of the scale would weigh so little it'll bounce off like a see-saw would when weight is lifted off the other.

She did care about Rukia, and Chado, it was shown, can't remember what chapter, and I'm not gonna look for it. Basically what you'd like to see is everytime she jumps into view, she recites all the people in the team and expresses or thinks about how much she cares, and when she actually would do that, you'd all complain that she takes up too much space in the manga.

And how could she plan for an escape? I doubt even Ichigo knows how they are gonna get out of there. You act as tho you think she should go lead the mission, but you can't expect that from her.

As for Ori, staying put when El Quatro has been zapped into oblivion, staying put when El Quatro was out fighting her beloved El Kurosaki-kun, staying put when El Sexta was fighting El Kurosaki-kun is annoying like a soldier doing nothing in battlefield.

When El Quatro was out pwning Ichi, Twit and Twat were having their fun with her. And after that she got picked up by El Kitty.

And should I copy paste my explanation to her staying put when El Kitty is fighting her Kurosaki-kun yet again? Cuz you conveniently keep ignoring that.

I don't see how she is more fearful towards a half-hollowed Kurosaki-kun compared to her fully-hollowed brother.

Well apparently she was. Apparently Kubo wanted her to show discomfort about Ichigo having a mask. Frankly I don't see the point of why it is so bad. She got over it. Just another small insignificant little thing that is used to diss her.

Yep. Useless. Point proven. I don't know what were you trying to argue about.

Yes so why are you having such problems about her not doing anything if she can't do anything anyway. She can't run off to Rukia, she's got no shunpo, so it would take her ages, and she'd get picked up by some Arrancar anyway.

You like "yeah she's useless haha", but then you expect her to do impossible things.

[anathema]

When canon itself is showing how impossible it is for her to do anything, why is this still a topic to be discussed?

So she's not running to where Rukia and CHAD (plz. to not be forgetting about the Chad) are? So, what? Given how many Arrancars around have been shown, that somewhere, out there, Gin is watching in all his creepy glory via monitors, AND the walls of HM can be altered just to impress again how useless and futile running around aimlessly can be, how can she? If anyone can give a viable and believable reason for her to accomplish all of those to finally get to the other members of the rescue squad, it'll be enlightening to a lot of people, I bet.

So she's not fighting using her elite powers? Isn't this just at par with Orihime's character in Bleach canon? Her joining in on the fight would actually be out-of-character, but I don't think anyone has pointed that out.

And hasn't Tesla explained already how futile that'll be? Orihime, as a person, is useless to them. It's her power they want. And had Orihime used her power, anybody from HM could have had the reason to retaliate. So, no. Orihime does not have her full power available because her limiter is in how fragile this said extremely poweful ability manifests themselves. Instead of fighting recklessly and potentially damaging the Shun Shun Rikka, which are needed by her fallen team mates by the way, her being out of fighting might be the best thing she can do right now because then, Ichigo can focus as well.

Comparing Orihime and Rukia's situations is a study on "How To Lose an Argument" because no one will win. The situations are different, the characters are different, so that means their strengths and weaknesses will be different as well. Their reactions to outside forces will be different, so the outcome will be different. And this means, of course, that a poster's bias will figure into the equation as well, so I think it'll be better to leave that comparison aside.

And please don't downplay Orihime's reaction to Sora's Hollow-state. It's true that she wasn't terrified of Sora when she first realized who he was, but this is the form her brother had when he tried to kill her. She even said, "My brother wasn't a person who did things like this." In her mind, a Hollow is equated to the twisted-version of the brother she loved, someone who wanted to kill her, and given how she's been in the business of purifying Hollows with Ichigo & Co. before HM, she knows what Hollows are capable of. Seeing that in Ichigo, how she not be terrified? How can you not be afraid of seeing people you love possibly become twisted and dark?

Orihime is not, and will never be, a super elite fighting warrior, but that's fine because she's not being built like that. This doesn't mean that she hasn't had any developments either. We can't all have explosive character changes after all; that'll be unrealistic.

But she has changed: she has come from "a girl who accepts being protected easily," to "a girl who accepts being protected and would want to protect as well." From this, she goes to become, "a girl who wants and strives to become stronger," and then, later still, to "a girl who wishes she can be stronger so she can be useful and equal to everyone else." This arc, I think that what she needs to learn is that she can be useful and important and equal to others without needing to fight because her healing is just as, if not more, important to the team as any fighter.

And I hope people stop pointing out her resolve in regards to the Hougyoku and how she's not following up on that. It's not yet the Hougyoku's time to become prominent in the plot, so Orihime's decision on what to do about the Hougyoku will not figure in the story yet.

This post is so long it's nauseating.

[Ileenka]

Look, Sarada. Basically, all I have done is rebutting against Platy's points about how people views Orihime and disproving what he believes we are looking at.

I have never expected much of Orihime. My expectations of her are really mediocre. I only expected her to try to run away perhaps. Even if she fails, who cares? As long as she tried. As long as she has a thought bubble or two for her friends. I am completely alright with her portrayal in Chapter 262 and 269.

What I am disconcerted with is how people consistently compare Orihime's current helplessness with Rukia in the SS Arc.

You have already so easily admitted Orihime is useless even with such massive power; I therefore rest my case.

My purpose is not to criticise Orihime's each and every scene. You asked me how was she selfish; I merely elaborated and gave you examples. I also have no other purpose to continue arguing against her, because my point all along was to tell Platy that Rukia cannot be compared with Orihime because Rukia's helplessness in SS was because she was powerless and did not have a choice -- unlike in Orihime's situation.

I am not sure why you are defending Orihime's each and every scene when in the end you gave the admission she is useless in battles anyway.

In short, Orihime's weaknesses are hard to be overlooked because her sacrifices to date, compared with the rest of Bleach cast, even Hinamori -- seems to fall short and shallow. And honestly, both Hinamori and Orihime are very alike. The difference is, Hinamori did not hesitate to act when need be. Hinamori also had a reason to act the way she did -- because Aizen masterfully imposed a genuine-like concern and reciprocation of similar affections for her. Orihime, like I have said previously, only showed a gradual deterioration. You have not yet disprove me under this thread: "Orihime's Character Development".

However, I'm pretty sure there is nothing else to disprove since you have already agreed with me how useless Orihime is.

[Annie]

Ugh, what's a point of keep arguing when one side keeps saying 'it's ok, she doesn't have to do anything. We completely understand why she's so useless' and the other side is saying 'she doesn't even try, that's why we are annoyed'.

For a character that has 100 chapters focus on her 'development', Orihime fails. To be exact, she fails only when she's with Ichigo. Kubo is the one who did this to her, so blame him. I admired Orihime in ch 233 when she healed two shinigamis and stood brave against Ulquiorra. I like her when she bitch-slapped Ulq and I love her when she begged to be let out after saw Rukia got impaled in ch 270. Heck I was surprised and liked her in ch 277 when she healed Ichigo without gotten freak out and cry. But at this moment she is not that same girl. Don't give this excuse of she's changing from this to that blah blah blah. Other characters have lesser chapters to develop yet they beat Orihime in character development atm. Orihime improve only to be drag down later on. It keeps happening and I'm annoyed. One chapter she's awesome and the next she's passive again, wth?

Look carefully, I dare say it's not Orihime haters but Orihime fans herself (like Debbie) who wants her to become a fighter. Fans like me or Ileenka don't believe she ever will become one. But the point that makes us frustrated is how she 'doesn't try' and people keep giving excuses that don't even sound right. 'Tesla told her she shouldn't fight him, that's why she's just standing here'. Really, as an Orihime fan, how can anyone be okay with that? Can you imagine anyone of the main cast listen to Tesla's threat if they were in Orihime's position? What most people want from Orihime is to try. Who cares if she fails. As long as she tries, no one can criticize her. At least they wouldn't have a strong case against her like...right now.

[Guildenstern]

The following chapter had Ichigo and Grimmjow fully healed...I find it hard to believe that they didn't speak at all during that time. I'm chosing to believe that Orihime asked about the others during this time; it's just in her nature.
Again-- I shouldn't have to imagine scenes and dialogue for Orihime to make her character more developed. It's not my job to make up reasons and excuses as to why she acts a certain way-- That's Kubo's job, and I'm not going to take it from him. (Unless I'm writing fanfic hu hu.)
Also, if it's in Orihime's nature then why hasn't he SHOWN us that it's in her nature? Am I supposed to assume it's in her nature? If it's so important to her supposed character, then why hasn't it been shown? Why should I have to imagine scenes into the manga to make it more palatable?
If we're supposed to make up scenes now to flesh out the manga story, then what is the point of canon character development? Bleach is not a democracy, goddamn it, the creator should be giving us some firm guidelines to the behaviour of characters. If the characters in a story start acting in a way that's unlike them, it's the author's job to show us why-- it's not our job to excuse it by writing in scenes mentally.

In short-- More Orihime thinking critically, less phrase repetition plox.

You have already so easily admitted Orihime is useless even with such massive power; I therefore rest my case.
I'd hardly call Raise III 'useless'. Like Rukia pointed out, Orihime has a place in what's going on, it's just...right now she's not really showing the resolve that's required. Since Ichigo showed up she's been just...unresponsive and purely reactionary, and, while Orihime is no fighter, that's not like her at all. :/

*waves a tiny flag for strict adhereance to canon*
Edit: I'll tell you what IS my job, though-- making gay jokes about the entire male (and occasionally female) cast while getting plastered. And I do my job well. >_>b

[Sarada]

A little off-topic, but ... didn't Hinamori like, attack Hitsugaya? I wouldn't call attacking your childhood friend usefull.

Again, you are emphasizing that she is useless, and having me 'admit' that. The difference is, I don't care if she is useless, Nell was a weak character too, and yes she did help out Ichigo, but even if she hadn't, even if she did absolutely nothing, I would not dislike her. So why oh why do you try to put it all on her being 'useless'? Is she obliged to be usefull?

And I want to make it clear that she is useless in fighting, but not useless as an overal character. Don't forget she healed a near dead Ichigo. And basically, this is all that matters in a Shounen, the survival of the main character.

And about her not even trying, maybe she thinks a little more than your average shounen character and actually realises there's no way in hell she can escape and roam around Las Noches to find Rukia and Chad.

She is not scared of a beating, she proved that when Lolly and Menolly were beating her. She just knows her limits damn well and realises she would only make Ichigo worry by leaving on her own.

[Ileenka]

Exactly my point. I was saying how Momo acted when she NEEDED to act, and her reasons for attacking Toushiro was justified as she was specifically trained and brainwashed by Aizen for decades to fall under his charming spell. Momo has never hesitated to act, no matter how rash her decision might have been. Kira never hesitated to protect Gin, and his principles are simple. Many people wouldn't have thought much of either of them, but to me they have their own beliefs and that is what makes it admirable.

A character who is useless in fighting in a shounen manga doesn't get very much respect. Heavy criticisms and slanderings are to be expected, especially for a major character who has appeared in a story for 6 years, receive prominent spotlight but acts like Pikachu in Dungeons and Dragons. A character like this, perhaps could be admired for his or her own emotional or mental strengths, none of which Orihime seems to possess. She could've been there for comedic reliefs of some sort, but she has been inflicted with the Kurosaki-kun Disease.

It really doesn't matter if she can't fight. Acknowledge Hanatarou, who tried to fight with a butter knife. Acknowledge Mr.Yamada, the little toaster who stole a key to try and free Rukia, acknowledge him who tried to go against almighty Byakuya. "As long as I tried, thank you." That is what Hanatarou would have said, no matter how weak or defenseless he is.

Such portrayal of emotional and mental strengths can launch a character into much respect. And of course, that was probably why he suddenly gained so much votes in the 2nd popularity poll.

[debbiechan]

I think that the main reason she hasn't changed yet is because Kubo is trying to show just how she needs to change.

Yes, this isn't in-depth, and is simple compared to other ideas, but it works:p

I think you summed it up quite nicely! That's it in a nutshell. If Kubo's wanted to show us someone in need of character development, he's done a might fine job.

[Jaina]

Good thread topic, Debbie. A lot of the time, I feel torn about Orihime. In general I like her character, but she's not one of my top favorites. Yet I find myself sympathizing with her in certain aspects and wanting to defend her when she gets demonized, while still recognizing her flaws. I think sometimes it makes it look like I just waffle a lot, but surely that just means KT has created a more realistic character that isn't 100% good or bad!...or maybe I need to be doused with maple syrup and butter. -_-;

Ahem. Anyway. These days, I mostly feel frustrated with/for Orihime. Being the emotional girl she is and not the best tactical thinker, on one hand it's somewhat understandable that she'd give in to Ulqiorra's initial kidnapping demands...but on the other, come ON. Did she really think her friends would be protected in the long run if she went with him? There would still be a war coming. Gah, gah, gah. THINK, GIRL! And since then...I don't know. I feel for her in that she's clearly in way over her head, doing what she can to get by; I would never expect her to, say, run away from the Ichigo vs. Grimmjow (and now Noitra) fight because it'd be turning her back on him, resulting in his potential death, as well as her likely just getting re-captured. So I don't expect her to be doing something active every single moment. And yet...it gets frustrating watching her in this position. I don't want an Orihime who is always cheery and bubbleheaded, but I really want her to get some self-esteem and move past the position she's in now.

I don't think Orihime is as selfish and bad as she sometimes gets portrayed (though I do want to grab her by the shoulders and shake her sometimes) but she's clearly been making some not-so-great choices, to put it lightly. I believe there is a purpose for this; KT rarely does anything without a reason. It feels like she's on the verge of something, some greater understanding about her place in the world, her place amongst her friends, and the value she does have. I agree with whoever said that there's not really much room for her to power up; I expect at some point she'll actually get powered down, because a teenage girl having the powers of god is just not something likely to last. So whatever revelation or boost she gets is more likely to be an internal one. But the problem is it feels like we've been on the verge for a WHILE now, even though it's true not a lot of time has passed in Hueco Mundo. I do think we'll see a payoff at some point, though. But when, WHEN? KT seems really good at making us ask that; just look at all the questions about when Rukia will return.

I don't think everything is going to turn out perfect for Orihime, but I have to believe there's more to her future than failure.

[avidlinuxuser]

If there is going to be character development in Orihime, it's going to be very negative. Grimmjow has already stated that she has changed. I'd doubt he'd tell Ichigo that if it was a positive change. The second she came to Hueco Mundo Aizen told her of her purpose. She is deceptively obliging. Aizen is not stupid at all. He wants Orihime to think in such a way. The beatings, "the revealing of her purpose to Aizen", and the manipulation of the corridors to lead to these fights are all probably done to further Aizen's true goal. Orihime will likely be "evil" for a period of time during the manga.

The true purpose of the arc was clear the moment the group met the "Great Desert Brothers". The primary character development in this arc has been given to the hollows and the arrancar. Through the "Great Desert Brothers", we see that hollows and arrancar can be kind, caring, and helpful. Through Dordonii, we see that arrancar can possess honor. Through Szayael, we see that arrancar can be curious and intelligent. Despite being an adjucca, he's probably the most scientifically minded of the espada. We see through Nel that arrancar can be more thoughtful than a human. After all, it was Nel who comforted Ichigo first as he went Vizard against Grimmjow. Similarly, it was Ichigo who comforted Nel first as it was being revealed that she was a former espada. The relationship dynamic between Ichigo and Nel has probably been the single most important development in the Hueco Mundo arc. It is likely that the relationship between Ichigo and Nel has caused Ichigo to think differently of his relationship with his hollow. At any rate, this is the reason that she's getting no development. The development of the characters that will probably play a more important part later on in the manga is far more important than the development of a character who was introduced in the early chapters of Bleach. If I'm right, there is a secondary reason which is waiting til the right time to show Orihime's corruption.

[Ileenka]

I don't think Orihime is as selfish and bad as she sometimes gets portrayed (though I do want to grab her by the shoulders and shake her sometimes) but she's clearly been making some not-so-great choices, to put it lightly. I believe there is a purpose for this; KT rarely does anything without a reason.

I have never denied that KT is not doing things for a reason. The wait for the reason, is especially frustrating. And like yourself has aptly put -- many of us want to 'grab Ori by the shoulders and shake her up'. I don't see how different or martyr-like you try to portray yourself compared to the rest of us who are testifying against her behaviour.

Actually, I appreciate your input in this matter but given how there are so many arguments that need to be addressed, augmenting the small argument on how Orihime isn't selfish isn't really proving the degration of her development in this story yet once again.

Being selfish is only a slice of character trait. Just like how being honest and blunt about what he wants, is part of Grimmjow's character. Or having the habit of pushing his glasses up the bridges of his nose is Ishida's habit, for example.

It feels like she's on the verge of something, some greater understanding about her place in the world, her place amongst her friends, and the value she does have.

Ooh. Fetch me a hanky.

I agree with whoever said that there's not really much room for her to power up; I expect at some point she'll actually get powered down, because a teenage girl having the powers of god is just not something likely to last.

Ah. Frustrating. Just to see KT giving her crazy power levels only to expect him to have it all taken away at one point. A common and humanly trait to criticise a character who hasn't done much. Not entirely sure how martyr-like would one expect a human fan to be.

I don't think everything is going to turn out perfect for Orihime, but I have to believe there's more to her future than failure.

Actually, I'd love to believe that. In fact I have been waiting for it 3 years ago when KT said she will be important. The importance of her in the story has been sufficing, but her attitude, mentality and emotions are hard to not be condemned.

There is a reason KT wants us to condemn her now. Better abuse the opportunity while it lasts.

[Nocturne]

If you have no interest in Orihime's development, why bother posting in a thread about her development? It's clear that not everyone shares the same views.

[debbiechan]

Ugh, what's a point of keep arguing when one side keeps saying 'it's ok, she doesn't have to do anything. We completely understand why she's so useless' and the other side is saying 'she doesn't even try, that's why we are annoyed'.

Tis the nature of forums! :D Hey, you know I disagree with you and Ileenka wildly sometimes but I love talking Bleach with you guys. My fangirl brain gets churning from things Primera Espada and Nocturne post in here.

Look carefully, I dare say it's not Orihime haters but Orihime fans herself (like Debbie) who wants her to become a fighter. Fans like me or Ileenka don't believe she ever will become one. But the point that makes us frustrated is how she 'doesn't try' and people keep giving excuses that don't even sound right. 'Tesla told her she shouldn't fight him, that's why she's just standing here'. Really, as an Orihime fan, how can anyone be okay with that?

I think a one good point that people in the letstolerateHimenotfighting camp make is that people have pointed out time and time again that Orihime is not a fighter. Ichigo takes it for granted. Ishida had a whole internal monologue about it. Urahara and Hutch have said it to Orihime's face.

And yes, Orihime is a healer. She's also a black belt class karate fighter and she's stood up to Ulquiorra THREE TIMES, walked into the Visored den with a smile, bitten a Shinigami in the shoulder because she wanted to get back to help Ishida fight AND lest we forget, Tsubaki is part of Orihime's personality. All her fairies are. There is a part of Orihime that is a fighter.

And worse, there's a part of Orihime that wants to fight, has sworn to fight, and hates herself for not being able to.

[Ros]

No, not necessarily. The end of chapter 277, we were shown that Ichigo and Grimmjow were already in each other's faces with their swords drawn. The following chapter had Ichigo and Grimmjow fully healed...I find it hard to believe that they didn't speak at all during that time. I'm chosing to believe that Orihime asked about the others during this time; it's just in her nature.

Like Guild said, it's not our job as readers to come up with stuff like that. We can and it's fun, and lord knows Kubo's gone back and fleshed out scenes like that chapters later before (like Rukia's flashback recently which added a lot more depth to her friendship with Kaien). My issue with Kubo is that he's running the risk of people losing sympathy for Orihime altogether by having her go from being strong on her own merits to a doormat in the space of one tender look skyward with no context to carry us along with her. Debbiechan mentioned pacing--at some point readers are going to have had more time to think of her as weak, and that's going to keep having an effect on their opinion of her even when she grows...unless Kubo steps in and gives us regular updates. Which he hasn't been. I understand the focus was on the fight, but since he chose to give us Orihime's perspective, why not use the opportunity to work with her a little more? Why fade her out until she's little more than another barrier between Ichigo and the readers?

I do love Orihime. She's one of my favorite characters, and I don't see her as weak or selfish or useless (she has her moments, of course, but I honestly don't see pointing out a character's flaws as attacking them. Gin is probably my favorite Bleach character; ask me about him and I'll tell you he's an irredeemable prick). My problem isn't with her, or even her characterization, but with the way Kubo's presented her in the past few chapters and the fact that he's done pretty much everything he could to confuse the hell out of readers and distance them from her when it would be easy for him to throw in a few token lines to explain her thought process. If he's doing this on purpose and we're supposed to feel confused and apprehensive as regards her character, he needs to--and this is just my opinion--do something with it already, because people who were otherwise neutral regarding her character are starting to hate her.

I said this in the last thread, but I can come up with reasons for her acting this way all day if I want. Debbiechan says she's frazzled. That's valid. Let's look at what Fan B thinks when they see that scene. Oh, they think it's because she's selfish and only thinks of Ichigo? That's valid too. It's valid because Kubo has given us nothing to go on. He has her POV, and with it he has an excellent chance to do what he did with Rukia in SS arc and give us a ton of internal focus and help us sympathize with her. Instead, during the entire Grimmjow fight, we got blank scenes of her looking at Ichigo, standing in one place even when it was shown repeatedly that she was in the line of fire...and that was it. The only break from wondering what the hell she was thinking was when he showed her fear of Ichigo's mask.

As to why Kubo didn't want to tell us, I believe he has an ulterior motive.

I do think there's a chance Kubo doesn't want us to sympathize with her, and wants us to think, "Eh? Why is she acting so dependant on Ichigo when she was handling situations well on her own?" But if that's the case he's not having it really affect her. Her only real moment of personal insight related to her fear of Ichigo--hey, Nel's right, she's not believing in him! In fact, all of the focus on her development in that fight revolved around her fear; first it was the fear that prevented her from truly believing Ichigo would win, then the fear that he wasn't the same person under the mask. Neither was truly resolved. Her "Don't get hurt anymore" added even more to the first, and the "Thank goodness he's back" to the second. Kubo is taking his sweet time making any conclusions about why she acts the way she does, which prevents readers from understanding her. Lack of understanding of her motivations is causing a rift between her and the readers.

A good example from Annie:
For a character that has 100 chapters focus on her 'development', Orihime fails. To be exact, she fails only when she's with Ichigo. Kubo is the one who did this to her, so blame him. I admired Orihime in ch 233 when she healed two shinigamis and stood brave against Ulquiorra. I like her when she bitch-slapped Ulq and I love her when she begged to be let out after saw Rukia got impaled in ch 270. Heck I was surprised and liked her in ch 277 when she healed Ichigo without gotten freak out and cry. But at this moment she is not that same girl.

People are saying they want her to at least try to do something, to think something, anything. What I'm missing personally is the connection with her that I had before that fight. Ichigo's head is no-man's-land right now apparently, and instead of using Orihime's POV as a partner to the reader the way he had been, Kubo made her unreachable too. For me it's not a matter of the likeability of her character, because that's mostly subjective, but Kubo's taken a lot of time to let readers get used to the idea that she's going to be pivotal to this arc. He's had her act a certain way throughout and set up questions that pertain to her growth...and then took a scene where her main physical action was to stand in one place and worry about Ichigo and did nothing else with it except raise more questions.

Look carefully, I dare say it's not Orihime haters but Orihime fans herself (like Debbie) who wants her to become a fighter.

I don't want to make a fighter of her. I want her to find a place she's comfortable with, where she can help the team without her fears of becoming a burden making her one inadvertantly. IMO, "fighting spirit" has little or nothing to do with an actual desire to fight. Fighting spirit is what she showed when Ulquiorra told her to say she belonged to Aizen and she lied to his face. She showed it when she refused to believe Chad was dead, and when Lolly beat her, and when she told Grimmjow "No." She even showed it in going back to heal her attackers against the will of the person who'd ripped them apart. Now we've gone from asking questions about her character like, "Can Orihime survive among the Arrancar?" and "Will she really unmake the Hougyoku?" to this kind: "Is she worried about her other friends?" "Why is she just standing there?" "What's she thinking?"

Kubo took a step back with her characterization, and as the arc drags on I think a lot of people are getting frustrated with having questions constantly raised while he dances around the answers. All I'd have liked to have seen was some context for her actions, something to tell people why and connect us to her again. "Grimmjow seems so strong, I had better keep out of the way so that I don't distract Kurosaki-kun" and "I remember seeing Kuchiki-san hurt, I hope she and Sado-kun can hold on until we get there" would have sufficed. If Kubo had a reason for not giving us that, I'm just hoping he lets us in on it soon.

[Nocturne]

Kubo is biding his time for when Orihime gets to shine. Byakuya's biggest change in his character occurred at the end when he saved Rukia. Otherwise, his character remained the same throughout SS. Also a matter of how different fans see her development. There are the haters who think Orihime's development has gone nowhere but down, then there are the fans who are currently frustrated with the pacing, and finally there are fans like myself who's enjoying every chapter she's in and do see changes in her character. I don't want her to change overnight, I like the pace that Kubo's set. As I said, this arc is far from over, there's lots of time for character development. And yes, she's definitely still connecting with me.

[Ros]

Kubo is biding his time for when Orihime gets to shine. Byakuya's biggest change in his character occurred at the end when he saved Rukia. Otherwise, his character remained the same throughout SS. Also a matter of how different fans see her development. There are the haters who think Orihime's development has gone nowhere but down, then there are the fans who are currently frustrated with the pacing, and finally there are fans like myself who's enjoying every chapter she's in and do see changes in her character. I don't want her to change overnight, I like the pace that Kubo's set. As I said, this arc is far from over, there lots of time for character development. And yes, she's definitely still connecting with me.

This is a good point, but Byakuya's character switch was a twist--we were supposed to believe he was a heartless monster pretty much up until he moved in to shield Rukia from Aizen.

I don't want her to develop overnight either, and obviously there's stuff that needs to be set up and left to work around later, but this arc has me thinking of Kubo standing at one end of a field and dropping seeds as he walks without turning around to check on them until he reaches the end. It's a long walk. He's planted a lot of questions. I think some of them need attention instead of him simply throwing information at us in chunks between fights and then not addressing it.

[Lady Orihime]

Again-- I shouldn't have to imagine scenes and dialogue for Orihime to make her character more developed. It's not my job to make up reasons and excuses as to why she acts a certain way-- That's Kubo's job, and I'm not going to take it from him. (Unless I'm writing fanfic hu hu.)

It might not be your job, but if you think about what Kubo was going for, It helps to understand the story a bit better. I'm sorry, but I think it's ridiculous to believe that they didn't say anything to one another during the healing time. Just because Kubo didn't show it to us, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Or maybe, he did have a rough draft of what they were saying, but trashed it because he wanted to get to the long awaited Ichi vs Grimm fight faster.

Also, if it's in Orihime's nature then why hasn't he SHOWN us that it's in her nature? Am I supposed to assume it's in her nature? If it's so important to her supposed character, then why hasn't it been shown? Why should I have to imagine scenes into the manga to make it more palatable?

Orihime has shown us plenty of times that it's in her nature to worry about her friends, want to know of their well being and make sure that they are taken care of. I don't know how you could have missed that.

Do I have to mention that from chapters 277-286 was all about the Ichigo and Grimmjow fight? What would you have had Orihime do? And IMHO, Orihime running around Los Noches would have been the stupidest thing she could have done. She was smart to stay with Ichigo and Nel.

I'm thinking of going back to chapter 277 and writting down all of Orihime's dialogue from chapter 277-290. Maybe seeing all of her dialogue on one page will make some people feel better, or something.

[Ros]

It might not be your job, but if you think about what Kubo was going for, It helps to understand the story a bit better. I'm sorry, but I think it's ridiculous to believe that they didn't say anything to one another during the healing time. Just because Kubo didn't show it to us, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Or maybe, he did have a rough draft of what they were saying, but trashed it because he wanted to get to the long awaited Ichi vs Grimm fight faster.

That might be true. As it stands, if he did that, it's the reason behind a lot of people now thinking that Orihime is a selfish ditz fixated solely on the boy she likes. If Kubo did that, he made a mistake.

Do I have to mention that from chapters 277-286 was all about the Ichigo and Grimmjow fight? What would you have had Orihime do? And IMHO, Orihime running around Los Noches would have been the stupidest thing she could have done. She was smart to stay with Ichigo and Nel.

I think if Kubo had shown more internal dialogue showing that that was what we were supposed to take from that scene people would feel a little less upset with her. I'm not upset with her, some people are going to be, because they took something totally different from her actions. Kubo didn't clarify.

[Lexa]

A few people have mentioned this, and I just want to throw my two cents in before I return to lurkdom: I think it’s wrong to make assumptions that Orihime is saying things "off camera." That is, I don’t think you can say that she’s talking about Rukia or Chad or anyone while she’s healing Ichigo and Grimmjow. That’s what YOU want her to be doing/saying. It’s not the same thing as trying to glean her emotions from looking at how Kubo’s draw her face. If you’re really hell-bent on believing that there’s a lot of side dialogue that we don’t get to see, at least consider that it must not have been anything really relevant otherwise Kubo WOULD have included it.

I also think it’s a little unfair to compare her to Rukia; they’ve had two different life experiences. I think the reason why Orihime tends to be disliked is because she sticks out in the series like a sore thumb. She’s a main character who doesn’t/can’t really fight in a shounen manga BASED on fighting. When you juxtapose her next to Rukia, Tatsuki, the vaizard and shinigami girls of course she’s going to come off as a little simpering. I think this is why so many people had high hopes for her pre-SS and post-SS arc; she looked like she was finally going to become an independent character that was capable of looking after herself and putting HERSELF first, and not Ichigo. At this point, I’m actually pretty tired of her self-sacrificing attitude because it’s nothing new. Granted, it’s in character for her, but it’s nothing new. Orihime, more than even Ishida in my opinion, has suffered from a serious lack of character development. And, true, you can’t expect her to suddenly revolutionize her whole being and lose her sweetness, but it seems to be that she’s almost clinging to her innocent ideals.

(OT: And I completely disagree with the idea that Rukia has suffered from a lack of characterization, too. Her most recent chapters have proven to me that she’s going to come out of this without those chains of guilt she’s carried. It was important for her to come to terms with that part of her life before she could move on and become the person she’s meant to be. Just like Ichigo has to come to terms with his Hollow. Just like Orihime is going to have to come to terms with the actual reality of her crush.)

I was really excited for the chapter where she looks fearful of Ichigo; I think that was the first step in breaking her out of bad habit of hero-worship and forcing her into a type of maturity that she really needs.

But anyway, to be completely honest, I’ve always found her characterization to be a bit inconsistent at times, which is the most frustrating thing of all to me. It’s sort of like watching a high jumper who runs like she’s going to make it, only to balk before actually jumping over the bar. I agree that she’s on the verge of something (well, hopefully…), but she keeps approaching that epiphany only to stop suddenly and revert back to where she was.

[Nocturne]

As it stands, if he did that, it's the reason behind a lot of people now thinking that Orihime is a selfish ditz fixated solely on the boy she likes. If Kubo did that, he made a mistake.
Well, just keep in mind that some of the people who do think that never really held a high opinion of Orihime in the first place, based on observation. They've also always thought she's selfish prior to these current chapters. People who hate Orihime will always find fault in everything she does. Falling for Ichigo is one of her biggest faults, apparently.

I don't want her to develop overnight either, and obviously there's stuff that needs to be set up and left to work around later, but this arc has me thinking of Kubo standing at one end of a field and dropping seeds as he walks without turning around to check on them until he reaches the end. It's a long walk. He's planted a lot of questions. I think some of them need attention instead of him simply throwing information at us in chunks between fights and then not addressing it.
LOL, reminds me of the idiom "see the forrest for the trees". Too many are looking at the trees or at this point seeds and drawing a conclusion with it. It's probably better to wait until the arc is done to better discuss 'cause Kubo could literally prove our assumptions wrong with each passing chapter.

[Lady Orihime]

A lot of people wanted Orihime to book it to find Chad and Rukia, which would have been stupid of her to do. Kubo kept Orihime their because maybe he thought his readers would understand that it's safer for both Orihime and Ichigo to have Orihime near him. After the fight with Grimmjow, it was obvious that Ichigo needed to be healed...what if Orihime and went off on her own, and only ended up getting caught by another espada? Her chances of saving Chad, Rukia, and now even Ichigo goes down the drain.

Orihime staying with Ichigo was just common sense.

[Nocturne]

Actually, protecting her Rikka at the moment is Orihime's #1 priority. If she strikes any Espada, her Rikka will be destroyed, per Tesla. She needs her Rikka to heal, Rukia, Chad and Ichigo (again) so not doing anything is the smartest move at the moment.

[Guildenstern]

It might not be your job, but if you think about what Kubo was going for, It helps to understand the story a bit better. I'm sorry, but I think it's ridiculous to believe that they didn't say anything to one another during the healing time. Just because Kubo didn't show it to us, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Or maybe, he did have a rough draft of what they were saying, but trashed it because he wanted to get to the long awaited Ichi vs Grimm fight faster.
Why should I believe they said anything at all to one another, if Kubo didn't actually write it?
Interpreting the text and adding scenes into it to yourself is great if you feel that makes the story better, but it's folly to try to present that kind of thing in an actual discussion about canon, 'cause...it's not canon. Kubo didn't write it? Not canon. If you're trying to speculate, sure, it works I guess. Given Kubo's attention to detail in earlier chapters-- Random conversations become important later, hints get tied back into the plot at much later dates, etc-- saying that Kubo 'just didn't have room for it but it's still important to consider!' is not really true. One must assume that whatever happened in that intervening scene has no bearing on the storyline as a whole-- thus why it wasn't included.

Also, we don't know what Kubo was 'going for' as the scene wasn't included-- and the point of this thread to try to figure out what Kubo is 'going for' with Orihime as regards actual canon images and text, not 'what if' scenarios, because until he writes it/draws it it never happened. Let's try to stick to what we've seen and read and keep out of the realm of 'what if'.

..Although I wish he had included something like that. Would have been nice.

I think that the main reason she hasn't changed yet is because Kubo is trying to show just how she needs to change.

Yes, this isn't in-depth, and is simple compared to other ideas, but it works
It's a good idea if what Kubo is trying to do is portray Orihime's actions ATM in a negative light... arrrg she was doing so well before! >_< Even Ulquiorra had to admit she was a badass.The thing is, he's just not making clear what we're supposed to think, so it's really hard just by looking at the manga to determine where he's going with this. Why make her such a pimp before to make her so wobbly now?

Editsauce: Arg. Maybe it's plotkai?
Kind of like how in the first chapter of Bleach, Kubo had to make both the regular Hollows extremely threatening and Rukia seem weak, even though we know -now- that those Hollows kind of suck and Rukia had to have been much stronger than she appeared at the beginning-- it was necessary to move the plot. Rukia had to get pwnt and give her powers to Ichigo to get the manga started, so a bit of artistic license was employed.
Although I think that's kind of a shitty move, like most plot devices, it's required to get things moving, just like Oedipus never putting two-and-two together and figuring out Jocasta was his mom, even though it was painfully obvious to the audience. XD
Maybe Orihime seeming weakness ATM is required for something upcoming in the future, although for the life of me I cannot figure out what.

[Jaina]

I have never denied that KT is not doing things for a reason. The wait for the reason, is especially frustrating. And like yourself has aptly put -- many of us want to 'grab Ori by the shoulders and shake her up'. I don't see how different or martyr-like you try to portray yourself compared to the rest of us who are testifying against her behaviour.

I certainly was not trying to present myself as a martyr. I'm not really sure what I'd be martyring myself for. A lot of times, threads like these tend to come down to "pro" and "anti" camps, and I was just trying to make my feelings clearer, since I don't really fit into either one; overall I do like Orihime's character, though there are a numbere of characters I like a lot more, but I have more trouble liking her in this arc; I sympathize her in some areas, but disapprove of her actions in others. I have mixed feelings. If I was unclear on that, though, the onus is on me to try to do better in future posts, and I'll do so.


Actually, I appreciate your input in this matter but given how there are so many arguments that need to be addressed, augmenting the small argument on how Orihime isn't selfish isn't really proving the degration of her development in this story yet once again. Being selfish is only a slice of character trait. Just like how being honest and blunt about what he wants, is part of Grimmjow's character. Or having the habit of pushing his glasses up the bridges of his nose is Ishida's habit, for example.

I actually don't disagree that she has been selfish, but we probably differ on the degree of her selfishness.

Ooh. Fetch me a hanky.

...yay sarcasm? I'll be honest; I read over the previous three pages in this thread very quickly this morning, to get a gist of the convo thus far. I hadn't yet had my morning shot of caffeine, and I didn't really pay attention to who made what post. If you feel like any of my first post in this thread was directed at you, it wasn't. I don't know, I feel like I've offended you somehow and I'm not sure how; if so, I apologize, and I'm always open to working things out in PM.

Ah. Frustrating. Just to see KT giving her crazy power levels only to expect him to have it all taken away at one point. A common and humanly trait to criticise a character who hasn't done much. Not entirely sure how martyr-like would one expect a human fan to be.

It's not about Orihime being a martyr, either; I don't necessarily think any power loss on her part would have to be voluntary. It really has nothing to do with her at all, except for the fact that she can literally defy death itself, and that's such an incredibly huge deal, I have trouble imagining her just walking around with that ability for the rest of her life. I could easily be wrong on this, it's just a gut feeling at this point.

Actually, I'd love to believe that. In fact I have been waiting for it 3 years ago when KT said she will be important. The importance of her in the story has been sufficing, but her attitude, mentality and emotions are hard to not be condemned.

There is a reason KT wants us to condemn her now. Better abuse the opportunity while it lasts.

Could be, could be. Even though I do sympathize with her in some areas, I do think we're meant to disapprove of some of Orihime's actions and decisions; flaws and mistakes need to be recognize for characters to begin to try and overcome them. I just can't blanketly condemn her yet. I'll admit it, one reason I still have hope for her to rise above her mistakes is it's just really depressing to think she'll never get the chance to do any better.

Despite all the disagreements in this thread; I'm finding it pretty interesting. It's nice to hear more on ways of looking at Orihime that I hadn't considered that much before. Whether or not I agree with them, it helps me figure out my own feelings for her better, and I appreciate that, since sometimes it feels like I'm just flailing about.

[debbiechan]

Actually, protecting her Rikka at the moment is Orihime's #1 priority. If she strikes any Espada, her Rikka will be destroyed, per Tesla. She needs her Rikka to heal, Rukia, Chad and Ichigo (again) so not doing anything is the smartest move at the moment.

I'm with you there, Nocturne, but Orihime doesn't strike me as that much of a strategizing fighter. She's like Ichigo in that respect--she helps who needs to be helped at the moment. Ishida can evaluate priorities; Aizen can play games; Ichigo and Orihime go with their instincts.

There were other times when Orihime risked her own life and her Rikka by standing up to forces that would surely vanquish her. Is it that she's learning restraint or is it that she's paralyzed? I'm going to think about that one.

As fas as your previous post goes about making prognostications or leaving analysis to when the arc is over, I believe that goes against the whole grain and purpose of a serial manga--the chapter form, tidbit of clues after clues form, all the cliffhangers--we're supposed to be guessing. That's the audience's job when it comes to a serial story.

I believe that its fear of being proven wrong that keeps people out of debates--heck, for me, I love being proven wrong--that brings the whole group one step closer to solving the puzzle.

[Ileenka]

I'm sorry, but I think it's ridiculous to believe that they didn't say anything to one another during the healing time. Just because Kubo didn't show it to us, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I am not sure if you want to stick by this belief. KT didn't show us what exactly happened when Ichigo and Rukia were staying in the same room. Can I say 'just because KT didn't show it to us, doesn't mean it didn't happen' ?

Oh, by the way, Jaina. I'm surprised with your willingness to work through things through PMs because from our previous experiences in the IchiRuki community, you have never shown much courtesy to fans who disagree with you. I'm glad you seem to want to compromise in this forum. ^__^

[Jaina]

I'm with you there, Nocturne, but Orihime doesn't strike me as that much of a strategizing fighter. She's like Ichigo in that respect--she helps who needs to be helped at the moment. Ishida can evaluate priorities; Aizen can play games; Ichigo and Orihime go with their instincts.

I think that's a pretty succinct analysis, Debbie. Orihime has never been a tactical thinker, to put it gently. Unfortunately, one of her biggest tactical mistakes was (imho) assuming that if she didn't come with Ulquiorra, her friends would lose, when in reality, that was not such a clear-cut situation. Maybe she still would've ended up in Hueco Mundo by force, but regardless, she caved in and look where we are now.

There were other times when Orihime risked her own life and her Rikka by standing up to forces that would surely vanquish her. Is it that she's learning restraint or is it that she's paralyzed? I'm going to think about that one.

Could be a mix of both, depending on each situation and how clearly Orihime's thinking at the moment, though now that she's been directly told of the danger to the Shun Shun Rikka, I'm sure protecting them for the sake of them and her friends will on her mind. Maybe I'm equivocating too much, though, I do that sometimes.

[Lady Orihime]

Why should I believe they said anything at all to one another, if Kubo didn't actually write it?
Interpreting the text and adding scenes into it to yourself is great if you feel that makes the story better, but it's folly to try to present that kind of thing in an actual discussion about canon, 'cause...it's not canon. Kubo didn't write it? Not canon. If you're trying to speculate, sure, it works I guess. Given Kubo's attention to detail in earlier chapters-- Random conversations become important later, hints get tied back into the plot at much later dates, etc-- saying that Kubo 'just didn't have room for it but it's still important to consider!' is not really true. One must assume that whatever happened in that intervening scene has no bearing on the storyline as a whole-- thus why it wasn't included.

Also, we don't know what Kubo was 'going for' as the scene wasn't included-- and the point of this thread to try to figure out what Kubo is 'going for' with Orihime as regards actual canon images and text, not 'what if' scenarios, because until he writes it/draws it it never happened. Let's try to stick to what we've seen and read and keep out of the realm of 'what if'.

..Although I wish he had included something like that. Would have been nice.

Like I said in my previous post:

Or maybe, he did have a rough draft of what they were saying, but trashed it because he wanted to get to the long awaited Ichi vs Grimm fight faster.

So he MIGHT have written it, but decided to trash it because he wanted to get to the long awaited re-match between Ichigo and Grimmjow.

We'll never know...dun DUN DUN!

All I know is, I don't have a single problem with current Orihime. She ignored Grimmjow's demands in chapter 278, and she was her blushing, bubbly self in 286. She's letting her emotions show, and I'm so proud of her for that, because she has said before she puts on a façade in front of people. Her moment to shine will come soon enough, and that's all I can say. You guys just need to be patient. "Patience is a virtue" ;)

[Nocturne]

As fas as your previous post goes about making prognostications or leaving analysis to when the arc is over, I believe that goes against the whole grain and purpose of a serial manga--the chapter form, tidbit of clues after clues form, all the cliffhangers--we're supposed to be guessing. That's the audience's job when it comes to a serial story.

I believe that its fear of being proven wrong that keeps people out of debates--heck, for me, I love being proven wrong--that brings the whole group one step closer to solving the puzzle.
I don't think Kubo wants people to think too much into anything. Isn't his core audience teenage boys? XD Thus the back to back fights this being shounen and all. We're too busy analyzing everything and next thing you know Kubo proves us wrong. Also, it's clear not everyone sees the same situation. As I said earlier, some people see Orihime lately and think her development has gone negative and there are others who see it as positive. I'm not going to worry too much of it as I'm enjoying the Bleach story too much. It's nice to experience having to wait weekly to find out what happens. I got into Bleach after the SS arc so I was able to read that as a whole and see everyone's character development fully. It's fun this way though 'cause I do enjoy trying to figure out the characters from the tiny morsels Kubo's given. (And I was right about Grimm, woo!)

[Ros]

Well, just keep in mind that some of the people who do think that never really held a high opinion of Orihime in the first place, based on observation. They've also always thought she's selfish prior to these current chapters. People who hate Orihime will always find fault in everything she does. Falling for Ichigo is one of her biggest faults, apparently.

It's not the people who hate Orihime. That's why I say her likeability as a character is mostly subjective; yeah, there are always going to be people who hate Orihime, Rukia, Ichigo, Isshin, whoever for various reasons. It's the people who started to like her or never had much of an opinion on her who are now reevaluating their take on her according to how many chapters she's been static vs. how many chapters Kubo works with her. It's not their fault. We can all speculate, but it's Kubo's job to show us where he's going with the character, and he's taking so long that she's starting to grate on people she otherwise might not have. There are a lot of people just in this thread posting with, "I liked the way she was going before and now I'm kind of disappointed and I don't know what to think of her." The I don't know what to think of her is where Kubo's falling short.

And here I reply to someone in the same room with me: >_>
Editsauce: Arg. Maybe it's plotkai?
Kind of like how in the first chapter of Bleach, Kubo had to make both the regular Hollows extremely threatening and Rukia seem weak, even though we know -now- that those Hollows kind of suck and Rukia had to have been much stronger than she appeared at the beginning-- it was necessary to move the plot. Rukia had to get pwnt and give her powers to Ichigo to get the manga started, so a bit of artistic license was employed.

Actually the "plotkai" thing is something I'm worried about for a different reason, because if he suddenly has her snap out of it and continues on with no comment, it's going to look like just really inconsistant characterization. Which is going to bug people even more, because readers generally really don't like it when characters appear to be allowed to "get away" with being flawed. It's great when they have flaws, but not when they have no negative impact on the character (generally at the core of the Mary Sue argument)--but I've never seen Kubo come even close to doing something like that.

[manfan]

It might not be your job, but if you think about what Kubo was going for, It helps to understand the story a bit better. I'm sorry, but I think it's ridiculous to believe that they didn't say anything to one another during the healing time. Just because Kubo didn't show it to us, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Or maybe, he did have a rough draft of what they were saying, but trashed it because he wanted to get to the long awaited Ichi vs Grimm fight faster.
Lady Orihime, You forget to use the same excuse used before to explain why Ichigo behaves Ichigo-like.....the reason why Ichigo refuses to talk to her during that recuperation was because of the so much emotions he suppressed inside.....he's so afraid to spill them, his emotions out and be seen by Orihime as a weak person.

That's why he makes sure his back faces Orihime all that time. :rolleyes:


Do I have to mention that from chapters 277-286 was all about the Ichigo and Grimmjow fight? What would you have had Orihime do? And IMHO, Orihime running around Los Noches would have been the stupidest thing she could have done. She was smart to stay with Ichigo and Nel.

Anybody who thinks that she a healer, the weakest among Ishida, Chad, Rukia, Renji and Ichigo, stands a better chance fighting with the arrancars...and wants Orihime to fight them....are stupid.

Thank God, Kubo Tite is not stupid.

But then, probably the reason as stated by some, that the reason why Orihime's feets are stuck there (by Kubo Tite) ....is probably to show how important Orihime is to Ichigo, that he's willing to give up his life, protecting her?

Is it wrong for Kubo to put Orihime there, stucked next to Ichigo....to show how important Orihime is to Ichigo?

[Jaina]

I don't think Kubo wants people to think too much into anything. Isn't his core audience teenage boys? XD Thus the back to back fights this being shounen and all. We're too busy analyzing everything and next thing you know Kubo proves us wrong. Also, it's clear not everyone sees the same situation. As I said earlier, some people see Orihime lately and think her development has gone negative and there are others who see it as positive. I'm not going to worry too much of it as I'm enjoying the Bleach story too much.

Heh, I don't know if KT EXPECTS teenage boys to analyze everything like we do, but Bleach is popular enough with a wide variety of people that I'm sure he knows people will. And even if he doesn't...it's still fun. ;) I think the not worrying and just enjoying is a pretty healthy attitude, but that doesn't mean there's not value it analyzing an nitpicking! I really like doing it, I just accept that I am often going to be wrong, what with all the twists and turns of the story...but that just means more for us to nitpick and analyze. It's an endless cycle, and I love it.

[Lexa]

So he MIGHT have written it, but decided to trash it because he wanted to get to the long awaited re-match between Ichigo and Grimmjow.

We'll never know...dun DUN DUN!


Okay, I totally get what you're saying, but I think that type of stuff has to be left up to the realm of fanfiction. I was always taught that when you write, dialogue should serve one of two purposes:

1) To further characterization
2) To further plot

So even if it was there at one point, it really must have been expendable. :/ I'm not really sure what they would have talked about in that moment, either!

And I think the reason this thread exists is because we've all been waiting a very long time for her to start shining. ;)

[Nocturne]

LOL, Jaina, it's an endless cycle and fun until you realize people are repeating the same arguments over and over. We'll be cutting and pasting soon or saying, please refer to my post on page 4. XD

"I liked the way she was going before and now I'm kind of disappointed and I don't know what to think of her." The I don't know what to think of her is where Kubo's falling short.
But again, that's the opinion of some people in this thread and not all fans in general. For some Kubo is failing them, for people like me, he's not 'cause I still do know what to think of her. See, I think I'm already repeating myself. :D

[debbiechan]

Heh, I don't know if KT EXPECTS teenage boys to analyze everything like we do, but Bleach is popular enough with a wide variety of people that I'm sure he knows people will.

Bleach is shounen targeted boys but the times are a changin. Bleach's largest audience percentage is WOMEN IN THEIR TWENTIES. We're talking the queens of nitpick and character development here. I think it is partly Kubo's style and partly Jump's influence and eye on the audience that Bleach has shoujo elements. But yeah, Jaina, Bleach has a pretty diverse audience. I think it would be dumb of Jump not to recognize who their market is---otherwise manga-ka like Kubo wouldn't be being hired. Not every shounen out there is One Piece.

[Jaina]

Sure, the arguments do get repeated, but that's why threads come and go as we get new info and they become relevant. ;) Besides, we're anime and manga fans--we're MADE to regurgitate things for our own amusement.

[Nocturne]

Just wondering if Kubo realizes his work is analyzed and nit-picked to death? Maybe he does that's why he does crazy things like how he names his Arrancar. Then he laughs and giggles while we all pick apart the meaning of Grimmjaw's name (i.e. he's got teeth outside his jaw and that's grim) only to find out later he's named Arrancars out of architects like Nicholas Grimshaw. :D

[Syn]

Alright, my take on all this junk.
First, as many said, you can't imagine what happened during some scenes that Kubo didn't draw. If he didn't draw them, it's that they weren't revelant for the plot/characters. And yes, I mean it. It's not a question of wasting pages. You're talking about a mangaka who thought it was revelant to put a whole black page back right before the SS arc. So no I don't buy the he doesn't have much space argument, especially if we consider the slow pace (the thing that is killing everyone right now).

So, basically, I don't think we're supposed to like Inoue as she comes off right now. Granted, I've never been a fan of hers; I've been close to hate her too once. And then, I decided to watch her, because I thought that Kubo certainly wouldn't like it if I hated her because of things exterior to the manga.
So I've kept having faith that she'd change. I appreciated her in some chapters. And I truly waited for the moment where she would come off as strong. Not strong in the sense killing off espadas, not in term of power (I think she's already powerful enough), but in term of willpower. Someone who wanted to fight must have the resolve; however, her reason for wanting to fight were shallow and maybe that's why she still is so weak.
I think I lost my hope in the middle of the GrimIchi fight. Seriously, I'm just not having any kind of expectation from her right now. You can still say Kubo will pull out a trick and make her stronger, I'm not going to be impressed. That's too late now. She should have been stronger before; it's like being around Ichigo makes her weak and pathetic (yes, her 'Kurosaki-kun' are pathetics at best; it's normal to call out a name once or twice, but in every chapter, like she does? Oh, come on).
Why is she like this? I think she's very self-centered, emotionally weak and dependant, she lets her emotions get in the way. Basically a burden, since she does not have the will to fight (and by fight, I mean doing something else than Kurosaki-kun-ing) -refers to what Rukia told her in ch228. She doesn't have a good grasp of who she is and sees herself through others' eyes.

Where is Kubo leading us with her? I have no clue. She could go evil, she could not, at this rate it's just 50/50. She's been portrayed in a bad light, and a lot of fans (even her own fans) are being irritated with how she is right now. But for a lot of fans, this just didn't make it and Inoue is no longer a likeable character. Especially not in a shounen where so many female characters shine a lot and show strength and resolve despite their own problems (Rukia, Matsumoto, Tatsuki, Yoruichi, etc).

Kubo can make a twist soon, but I think Inoue is far from done; she has a lot to learn and experience before becoming a strong character. She'll probably be disliked/hated by a lot of people (she already is). I just don't care what happens to her anymore. GIVE ME BACK THE PLOT INSTEAD KUBO :yell

[manfan]

Bleach is shounen targeted boys but the times are a changin. Bleach's largest audience percentage is WOMEN IN THEIR TWENTIES. We're talking the queens of nitpick and character development here. I think it is partly Kubo's style and partly Jump's influence and eye on the audience that Bleach has shoujo elements. But yeah, Jaina, Bleach has a pretty diverse audience. I think it would be dumb of Jump not to recognize who their market is---otherwise manga-ka like Kubo wouldn't be being hired. Not every shounen out there is One Piece.

Do you have the official count? The last time I remember about any mention on a poll, iin regards to the supposedly most favourite Bleach pairing....and that is conducted among the teenagers, (below 13 years old).

What is to say that they are mostly teenagers / no teenagers.

By the way.....no insults to queens of nitpick and character developement....my opinion, they pick on a wrong department. You want to talk about character developement, you shouldn't be doing it in Kubo's WEEKLY MANGA NOVEL.....comprised of pictures mostly and very little words....leading to people to more wild and incorrect speculations. Anybody who wish to do so, should at least pick up a essay novels, or at least a book that has a beginning, a continuanity till the end....then we can talk about character developement.

Picking on someone over just a few pages per week, when you don't know where/how the author is heading is to is plainly a waste of time and hazardous to other people who love the author for everything that is not petty.

Ah, so debbie-chan mention that Bleach has shoujo elements. Is that the reason why debbie-chan continually keeps in touch with Bleach, because of the shoujo elements?

Bleach romantic/shoujo or not....is really a petty issue for me.

[cassoult]

I’d say that, right now, Orihime’s main problem is one of direction. All those panels and close-ups of her looking all determined indicate that she’s got plenty of resolve – but no real idea of how to channel it. We know that she wants a whole bunch of things: to fight alongside Ichigo, to get the arrancar to trust her, to destroy the Hogyouku, to help her friends. All fine and worthy ambitions but unfortunately currently completely contradictory – and she doesn’t seem to know which of these she wants most. The girl who knew that she was going to SS to help Ichigo and who never wavered from that has gotten lost. So she simply reacts to whatever the current situation is without having some underlying purpose or some sort of guideline as to what behaviour to adopt. Which leads to some pretty contradictory behaviour as the situation keeps changing.

Ironically, her displays of courage and/or strength so far this arc have almost invariably gone against whatever it was she last resolved to accomplish: she decides to fight but instantly caves in to Ulquiorra’s demands, she decides to get the arrancar to trust her then slaps Ulquiorra. And her defiance of Grimmjow takes the form of healing enemies and refusing to heal Ichigo. There’s something wrong there. The fact that she doesn’t know what her role is, doesn’t know what she most wants to do is probably part of why she slipped so easily into letting Ichigo take charge.

Compare that to Rukia in SS. She was resolved to die and to keep her friends out of trouble, and throughout the arc we see her trying to work towards that. From the time Renji came to visit her to her farewell at the Sokyouku, her appearances show her trying to make peace with herself and those dear to her, which is why Gin’s casual shattering of her resolve to die is such a big deal. She reacts to the changing situation, yes, but always in a way that squares with her aim, be it by repeatedly telling Ichigo to leave, by throwing herself between Hanatarou and Byakuya or by asking Yamamoto to spare the ryoka.

…And at the end of the day, all that courage and resolve turned out to be misguided, the lesson she learned being that her life was worth living as plenty of people cared for her. All very satisfying and linear. Whereas Orihime’s development is frustrating because it’s so chaotic and contradictory. But Bleach is all about the parallels so chalk me up as someone who believes that at the end of the day, what Orihime is going to learn is pretty much what Rukia learned: to know where she fits and how important she is to others. Trite, but there you are.

[Nocturne]

My thing is, just because Orihime hasn't mentioned the hougyoku, people have assumed she's lost her resolve. How about let Kubo get to that part in his time. That falls along with the idea that just because Orihime hasn't mentioned Rukia and Chad's name, she doesn't care for them. Again, let Kubo get to that point. She's the one who's going to heal them, I don't think she's forgotten that. Kubo's decided to focus on Ichigo and Grimmjow's fight, not to mention Grimmjow's backstory and now Nel's. Putting Orihime repeating her resolve to destroy the hougyoku in that part of the story doesn't make sense in the context. I'm sure Kubo will dedicate a chapter or that soon. He wants to get the fights out of the way at the moment.

[Syn]

Even though Kubo's been developing the fights lately, he still showed that Ichigo cared for his friends (and yes, I do hold grudges against Ichigo too, but that has nothing to do in that thread, just in case).
He could have done the same with Inoue. But he didn't. I think it's very clear why; it's just because the girl has never been able to speak against Ichigo's will. To her, everything that he does is god-like, which isn't true (Ichigo needs to be kicked and told that what he's doing is wrong). She's concentrating solely on Ichigo (I believe that for now the Hougyoku is totally forgotten) because he's a guide for her. Except that the guide is also lost and you end up with a very frustrating situation such as the one we are currently reading.

[cassoult]

My thing is, just because Orihime hasn't mentioned the hougyoku, people have assumed she's lost her resolve. How about let Kubo get to that part in his time.

But I don't think she's lost her resolve at all. Quite the contrary - I think she's resolved on too many things and needs to sort out her line of action first. And I fully expect the Hogyouku issue to come up in due time. In fact, I fervently hope for it, if only so we get to see Aizen again.

Also, I'm far from convinced that Orihime will be the one to heal Chad and Rukia, but that's a different issue.

[Ros]

But again, that's the opinion of some people in this thread and not all fans in general. For some Kubo is failing them, for people like me, he's not 'cause I still do know what to think of her. See, I think I'm already repeating myself.

You and I both like Orihime. For us probably there isn't a lot Kubo can do to make us dislike her. For people who might have liked her, now he's got to at some point recapture their interest in her. There's probably no reason for me to care what other people think, but Kubo is a writer I respect a lot, and it bugs me to see him making what looks like it could be a bad step with Orihime's character that will make it really difficult for him to get the general readership of the manga on her side again. Maybe that's just the editor in me, I don't know. I feel the same way about Ichigo's total lack of internal dialogue for however many chapters now, too. It's frustrating to me.

Syn's post above pretty much says everything. She doesn't like Orihime, but she's not a rabid hater of her, putting down everything she does just because she's Orihime. She made an effort to get to know the character and had some moments where Kubo's characterization paid off, but, as she says, her actions in the Grimmjow/Ichigo fight put her off totally. Unless that's the reaction Kubo's going for, I think he made a mistake. Orihime is not sympathetic to the average readership of the manga right now, even if she's still sympathetic to the people who like her and have always liked her.

Edit:
My thing is, just because Orihime hasn't mentioned the hougyoku, people have assumed she's lost her resolve. How about let Kubo get to that part in his time. That falls along with the idea that just because Orihime hasn't mentioned Rukia and Chad's name, she doesn't care for them. Again, let Kubo get to that point.

He's taking too long, is the argument, so long that people are ceasing to care. He'll get to it eventually, of course, and no one's arguing that it should happen all at once or overnight. I think hints that it's still something that's developing are enough.

Edit again: Manfan, people are going to discuss this stuff. That's what fandom does and what forums are for. It doesn't matter who Kubo targets with it or the medium or whatnot, what matters is that we've read it and he's communicated with us and now we want to talk about it. This is probably the wrong place to try to argue that manga is a shallow medium and that people shouldn't pick it apart--it's gonna happen regardless.

[manfan]

Alright, my take on all this junk.
First, as many said, you can't imagine what happened during some scenes that Kubo didn't draw. If he didn't draw them, it's that they weren't revelant for the plot/characters. And yes, I mean it. It's not a question of wasting pages. You're talking about a mangaka who thought it was revelant to put a whole black page back right before the SS arc. So no I don't buy the he doesn't have much space argument, especially if we consider the slow pace (the thing that is killing everyone right now).

So, basically, I don't think we're supposed to like Inoue as she comes off right now. Granted, I've never been a fan of hers; I've been close to hate her too once. And then, I decided to watch her, because I thought that Kubo certainly wouldn't like it if I hated her because of things exterior to the manga.
So I've kept having faith that she'd change. I appreciated her in some chapters. And I truly waited for the moment where she would come off as strong. Not strong in the sense killing off espadas, not in term of power (I think she's already powerful enough), but in term of willpower. Someone who wanted to fight must have the resolve; however, her reason for wanting to fight were shallow and maybe that's why she still is so weak.
I think I lost my hope in the middle of the GrimIchi fight. Seriously, I'm just not having any kind of expectation from her right now. You can still say Kubo will pull out a trick and make her stronger, I'm not going to be impressed. That's too late now. She should have been stronger before; it's like being around Ichigo makes her weak and pathetic (yes, her 'Kurosaki-kun' are pathetics at best; it's normal to call out a name once or twice, but in every chapter, like she does? Oh, come on).
Why is she like this? I think she's very self-centered, emotionally weak and dependant, she lets her emotions get in the way. Basically a burden, since she does not have the will to fight (and by fight, I mean doing something else than Kurosaki-kun-ing) -refers to what Rukia told her in ch228. She doesn't have a good grasp of who she is and sees herself through others' eyes.

Where is Kubo leading us with her? I have no clue. She could go evil, she could not, at this rate it's just 50/50. She's been portrayed in a bad light, and a lot of fans (even her own fans) are being irritated with how she is right now. But for a lot of fans, this just didn't make it and Inoue is no longer a likeable character. Especially not in a shounen where so many female characters shine a lot and show strength and resolve despite their own problems (Rukia, Matsumoto, Tatsuki, Yoruichi, etc).

Kubo can make a twist soon, but I think Inoue is far from done; she has a lot to learn and experience before becoming a strong character. She'll probably be disliked/hated by a lot of people (she already is). I just don't care what happens to her anymore. GIVE ME BACK THE PLOT INSTEAD KUBO :yell

Correction....it's not FANS portray her in a bad light. Only ONE FAN who portrayS her in a bad light....namely saying tha