Similarities between Arcs

[Rain]

Many of us have noticed that the current arc, the Hueco Mundo arc, has quite a few similarities to the Soul Society arc.

After thinking of that, a few questions come to mind:

Why is Kubo doing this?
Is there a deeper meaning for it?
Can he not come up with something more original?
Will this continue with the next main arc (if there is one)?
Are so many of the similarities we notice just forced and not really there?
Are we not noticing the differences?

Many of us begin to talk about the similarities, so I figure we should have a place to discuss them

[aznxenocide]

These similarities aren't because there's some random underlying meaning to it...it's because this sort of development offers the most chances to show a character's growth and conflicts and whatnot. Like the Hero cycle in literature...they could come up with something else, but it'd be foolish and a lot less interesting, development-wise.

I mean...what'd you like to see happen? There was something different with the Bounto arc, and that was a failure.

[Rain]

Poor poor bounto arc, it never had a chance:rofl

aznxenocide- I agree with you on the underlying meaning part (I don't think there is one)

I just wonder why Kubo had one long rescue arc, then used the rescue arc idea again so soon, and after starting the arc writes many of the main characters out of the storyline.

[aznxenocide]

lol@bounto. XD

Which main characters are you talking about? Most of the super main characters are still involved...unless you're talking about the captains of the Gotei 13.

Yeah, I can understand what you're talking about...although in some ways, this can sorta be seen as the same arc. After all, both women that Ichigo's rescuing have something Aizen wants.

But it's pretty much the same thing with other shounen, like DBZ or Naruto. Maybe it's their very nature that makes these arcs redundant?

[Guildenstern]

I've noticed there's a lot of parallels to the SS arc in the HM arc, but the SS arc and the HM arc have just entirely different emotions associated with each of them. SS arc was a really intense, emotion-driven fixated kind of fight scenario, and it was pretty linear as far as fight scene > exposition > fight scene > exposition goes. HM arc looks and feels chaotic. (Also we got a lot more of Ichigo's inner thoughts in SS arc so that we could understand well why he was fighting and what he was thinking. I think some of the 'chaos' feel of HM arc stems from the fact that we haven't seen Ichigo's inner monologue for like 30 chapters.)

HM arc is a lot more unfocused in both the feel of the story and the execution. The focus jumps around all over the place, fights are broken up into chunks, we get dramatic cuts between the different groups all around HM at a pace that -seems- slow but is actually pretty fast if you read it all at one go.

I do not know what kind of meaning Kubo is trying to string together by making the HM arc seem like the bizarro world version of the SS arc... even the setup of the Espada vaguely mirrors the setup of the Gotei 13. XD If he was going for giving the reader a feeling of surrealism and a sort of 'Alice through the looking-glass' kind of spookiness, he suceeded I think. XD Perhaps in the end, he's going to try to make an allegory for the similarities of the two different places? SS and HM seem radically different, but maybe it's their similarities he wants to draw out.

In short: No clue. >_>;;

[Kalua]

I don't have as much to say as you guys, much less a well thought out theory, but I think Kubo has a logical reason for the similarites between SS and HM. I don't think Kubo has run out of ideas for the plot, but rather, he's setting us up for something big, and using the similarities of these arcs to build it up.
( ok. . . that made no sense what so ever. :P )

But if someone gets kidnapped again I swear I'm gonna hit something. >.>

[Beee]

hm.. the arcs have quite a bit of similarities, and Guildenstern actually makes a really good point even though she says she has no clue xD

It does sound like a bit of a Bizarro SS arc though, not only with the characters, but also with the way the story unveils.

In the SS Arc, everything seems to go quite well. Ichigo & co., somehow, manages to beat up the opponents they face and/or manage to overcome any situation.

In the HM arc, everything seems to be directed towards failure. The crew basically fails and take a good beating. Those who aren't almost dead (like Chad & Rukia) owe their survival to the great desert bros, with their healing vomit and their infamous infinite slick.

Also, Ichigo gets 'exterior powerup help' by Yoruichi in the SS arc while his progression in HM is more 'internal'

[Velius]

There are lots of minor similarities between the two, but as the overall story and feel goes, they are completely different. Not sure why Kubo is bring up all the similarities in the first place. It's possible, but something I would not like, if it was just because he had a formula that worked in the SS arc and decided to use it again and that is it.

Hopefully it's more along the lines of, "the two sides of a coin". How they are different but the same, that goes with the whole running the of "Black and White", that already exists in Bleach anyways. These arc similarities just contribute more to that. Shinigami = black, Arrancar = white. :)

But there are somethings that just push it a bit too far, that does make it seem like lack of effort or ideas or whatever, that most positive thinking people, like me, will just attibute to the 'black and white' element. Like, I agree with Kalua, if someone gets resuced again to set up an arc, fists will fly.

[stifflersthedog]

MMm i agree with the whole black and white two sides of a coin effort. There's alot that is similiar but in each one theres also alot that is different. The difference in colour between Yourouchi and Nell springs to mind.

[Guildenstern]

hm.. the arcs have quite a bit of similarities, and Guildenstern actually makes a really good point even though she says she has no clue xD

It does sound like a bit of a Bizarro SS arc though, not only with the characters, but also with the way the story unveils.
Hahaha, even old Guildy can make an on-topic post once in a blue moon!
\m/(>_____<)\m/

It really -is- like some kind of bizarro parallel to SS arc, starting with Orihime. Where Rukia was forcibly taken back to SS in front of Ichigo's eyes, Orihime leaves quietly while Ichigo is unconcious. They enter HM after defeating a gate guardian (huge sand monster, anyone?) and summarily split up into singles or teams with adorable little healer person (Hanatarou = Nell) and large comic relief character(s) (Dondo + Pesshe = Ganju?). Where Ichigo had confidence about being away from Ishida, Chad and Orihime in SS arc, on splitting up in HM Ichigo nearly has a fit over the idea of Rukia going alone.

The Espada are arranged in groups from weakest to strongest, ranked by numbers, with Aizen as their Captain-Commander figure. You got the crazy scientist guy (Mayuri = Szayel), the rough-and-tumble super strong guy who seeks out Ichigo to make him fight him (Grimmjow = Kenpachi), the snooty black-haired guy who talks down to Ichigo and who has a vested interest in the rescue object (Byakuya = Ulquiorra)....I could go on but you get the point. XD

Throughout the entirety of SS arc we got a TON of Ichigo's inner monologue with his thoughts about what he's doing, why he's here, what he's feeling etc, etc, etc. HM arc you get none of that. You're limited to Ichigo's initial (spoken) statement "We're gonna go get Inoue" and after that the entirety of Ichigo's motivations and thoughts are formulated either through what Ichigo says or through the eyes of other characters. Ulquiorra's comment on Ichigo 'suspecting' Orihime, Grimmjow's commentary on Ichigo's real priority in HM, Nell's thoughts watching Ichigo fight the Espada, etc. At no point do you get Ichigo's own thoughts on what he's doing, what he's feeling, why he's doing the things he's doing-- the closest you get to somebody emoting hard mentally over their mission in HM is Rukia right before she goes down, thinking about Orihime. Ichigo? Not a damn peep.

Even the 'Ichigo-the-rescuer and his healing sidekick catch up with the rescuee' scene was like some kind of awful throwback to SS arc. Instead of Ichigo showing up all dramatic-like infront of the rescuee, Orihime gets hauled in under a sheet and has it whipped off only to reveal-- Ichigo passed out flat on his back. Even when he wakes up, it's so anticlimatic as to be kind of annoying. "Oh...Nell...Inoue?" SS arc this ain't. At least Kubo drew in a parallel to the last time Orihime had seen Ichigo-- ironically, in almost exactly the same pose-- passed out flat on his back. Kind of a mirror image of Rukia seeing Ichigo on the bridge in almost the same scenario she'd left him on earth-- Bleeding and facing down Byakuya. XD Don't forget to add in the rescuee's attachment to the healing NPC! Rukia had Hanatarou who she used to talk to, Orihime has Nell who she tries to comfort.

God, even the treatment of Rukia-the-prisoner vs. Orihime-the-prisoner is totally creepy. The parallels are: 1. They both need(ed) a rescue 2. Both in white 3. Both in white towers/cells/unreachable areas. But that's where your similarities end. While Rukia was kept bound in a very comfortless tower that drained her power, Orihime pretty much has free run of her very cushy rooms-- complete with rugs, plump sofa and bouncy bed, with Ulquiorra to run room service/bouncer. SS arc made it clear Rukia was a prisoner, and was treated like one-- in HM arc, as Ulquiorra comments, the way Orihime was brought to HM and the way she's being treated now are not intended to make her feel like a prisoner, but to mould her mind into a future comrade. That's just downright freaky. Very Patty Hearst.

Like Velius noted, all these combine to give HM a superficial resemblance to SS arc, but only on the surface. Underneath, the tone is a LOT different than SS arc-- much darker, a lot more pervy, more chaotic and very jumbled. What precisely Kubo is trying to illustrate with this bizarro SS arc redux I do not know, honestly, since I can't read Kubo's mind, just his text, so you got me as to what he wants to do with it.

I hope it's something interesting though!

[WatanukiXXX]

Guildenstern that is an amazing post :)

I think you nailed it on the head. The HM arc is a bizarre parody of the SS arc. i'm gonna save this post and reread it everytime I get annoyed with Kubo dragging this arc through :D

although i do disagree with this:

At no point do you get Ichigo's own thoughts on what he's doing, what he's feeling, why he's doing the things he's doing-- the closest you get to somebody emoting hard mentally over their mission in HM is Rukia right before she goes down, thinking about Orihime. Ichigo? Not a damn peep.

Ichigo did emote for Chad (and Rukia) :p :rotflmao

[Guildenstern]

Ichigo did emote for Chad (and Rukia)
I mean mentally. You never get to hear Ichigo's thoughts about it, only what he says aloud. Normally we get to see quite a bit of Ichigo's inner thoughts about events, HM arc we don't.

It's kind of a bummer ._.;

Edit: Ros just woke up and said she thinks Grimmjow is more Renji, while Nnoitra is more Kenpachi-esque in his 'Running around looking for fights' thing. I think she might be right o_ob
Tesla wishes to be the little girl

[Syn]

Awesome post Guild *reps* :)
I think you hit right in the nail with this one. Ths SS arc and HM arc have a lot of similarities, but there are also very deep differences. Someone once mentioned that in the HM arc, contrarily to the SS arc, they didn't have a clear point of view of where they were heading to (the rescue team). Everything was in corridors leading to rooms and they were lost. During the SS arc, they had a clear view of the tower (they learned very fast where they had to go to rescue Rukia too) and it was always there, somehow, giving a clear view of where to go.
It is a great way of showing the mental of the rescue team, especially Ichigo's. As shown recently in the manga, Ichigo was kind of lost, not knowing why he was there exactly, until he aknowledged that he was here to fight, alongside saving Inoue. Now that this has been cleared, I somehow expect the plot to move along (Nnoi's appearance delayed it, but with Nel I kind of expect it to come back somehow).

[Rain]

Guys, your posts are amazing:D I'm so glad you're bringing up the differences too. It seems we always hear about the similarities and never the differences (the feel to the arc, the emotions being played, that stuff:))

Velius- I really like that "both sides of the coin" theory, I hope thats what's going on.

aznxenocide- I don't see the any captains in the Gotei 13 as a main character, I meant Chad, Rukia, and even ishida (we see him every few chapters to remember he is alive:p)

Guildenstern- simplay an amazing post :hug

Syn: great comment about the corridors moving and the white tower

[Ros]

Edit: Ros just woke up and said she thinks Grimmjow is more Renji, while Nnoitra is more Kenpachi-esque in his 'Running around looking for fights' thing. I think she might be right o_ob

Actually, having woken up more I'd like to expand on that. omg caffeine nom nom nom I don't really think any of the characters are direct parallels to what may or may not be their SS-arc counterparts, but I see Grimmjow as being more on Renji's level of importance to the story. Ichigo's fight with Renji was what Renji needed to drop any pretense of being a miniboss for the SS arc and help move the story; Ichigo's fight with Grimmjow may be what Grimmjow needs to (at least temporarily) stop working against Ichigo to his own disadvantage and strike out on whatever plot line Kubo has planned for him.

Having seen more of Nnoitra I almost think any intended comparison to Kenpachi would have to be a joke on Kubo's part. Kenpachi is a brute force killer who needs to feel the full strength of his opponent; on the flip side, we've never seen Nnoitra face anyone at full strength. Here's someone who does go looking for fights in the same vein as Kenpachi, who claims to be strong, who seems like the type to walk into battles slaughtering indiscriminately...and he's a coward.* He can't take the risk Kenpachi does of finding out he's not the strongest. Nnoitra is all ego, where Kenpachi is portrayed as almost noble and zenlike in his singular attachment to battle at the expense of ego.

*Edit: And by "coward" I mean by shounen standards. :rolleyes:

Well, that's my theory, anyway. (_ _) Maybe I should eat breakfast instead of jumping into threads five minutes after I wake up...

[Orlando]

I'm not really up to date on the Soul Society arc, I just skimmed over it but even I have noticed major similarities. I don't know why but I hope this is the failure arc since the hollow characters are my favourites and I don't want them all to die and lose or become sidekicks to Ichigo.

[furato]

Edit: Ros just woke up and said she thinks Grimmjow is more Renji, while Nnoitra is more Kenpachi-esque in his 'Running around looking for fights' thing. I think she might be right o_ob
Tesla wishes to be the little girl
At first I thought Ulquiorra was supposed to be Byakuya, but after Orihime's abduction, he appears to be more of a Renji, as in being assigned to take care of the prisoner (meals and such), having mild rifts with the prisoner followed by the display of reactions from both people after they part. But then, Nnoitra's taunt to Ulquiorra is like when Gin and Kenpachi wait for Byakuya outside Rukia's cell.

Meanwhile, Grimmjow has a bit of Byakuya-ness because he had 3 fights with Ichigo in which the 1st and 2nd fights are basically won by them and the 3rd is won by Ichigo.

(Hmm, thinking of making an actual list :nuts just for kicks.)

[Rain]

I don't think any epsada can be considered the new *insert name of gotei 13 member*

Most arcs in any figthing manga will have the same type of characters, and no espada is exactly like any *insert name of gotei 13 member*

furato- if you do make the list, i want to see it, It'll be funny

[gvino]

The purpose of this arc may not be trying to save Orhime at all, i think Kubo is trying to show us what's happening inside Hueco Mundo and Las Noches. I think many of us were dying to see the history of this place and what's going on when the trio first entered the bunker and faced Iceringer etc. The similarities could be Kubo style of narrating.... It's also nice to have more information on the villians, won't it be silly if you are told the hollow come from Hueco Mundo and not knowing their HQ and so on.

[Ros]

The purpose of this arc may not be trying to save Orhime at all, i think Kubo is trying to show us what's happening inside Hueco Mundo and Las Noches. I think many of us were dying to see the history of this place and what's going on when the trio first entered the bunker and faced Iceringer etc. The similarities could be Kubo style of narrating.... It's also nice to have more information on the villians, won't it be silly if you are told the hollow come from Hueco Mundo and not knowing their HQ and so on.

I think this is a good point, and I think a few of the HM characters are probably going to be set up to be wild cards during the winter war--not necessarily going over to Ichigo's side, but focusing on something other than working against him, or breaking with Aizen totally and taking an "enemy of my enemy is my temporary ally" approach with Soul Society/trying to repel both them and Aizen. Some of them (Ulquiorra, Grimmjow) have gotten sufficient character development that it's reasonable to theorize that they have a purpose in the story beyond antagonism toward SS and Ichigo.

Kubo's been more secretive about the Espada than he was about the captains. We've seen flashes of the ones we don't know well yet, but we still don't know all their names, all their ranks, or much at all of their motivation and personalities. There are also a few unknown quantities floating around (Wanderweiss) and the fact that at least one Espada is going to have to be replaced by a different character at the end of this. In SS Kubo touched on characters other than Ichigo pretty frequently, but wierdly, we were almost shown more development of the Espada before the rescue team entered Hueco Mundo. Since then we've met them pretty much as Ichigo and the others have.

On another note I keep wondering if, if the parallels keep going, Aizen's going to be betrayed at the end of this arc and someone is going to be shown to have been manipulating him. He's a pretty straightforward villian--terrifically powerful, ambitious for the sake of having reached the limits of that power, sociopathic, personally void, cunning yet perfectly willing to explain his motivations, ect. He's almost too clean cut, and despite being the major antagonist he's had little to no character development himself.

What we have seen has been mainly interaction with Gin. The "Oh this is kind of fun, Gin, do you think I'm crazy?" scene was the first time I'd ever felt a spark of interest in him, because he seemed like someone who honestly doesn't have enough there to be familiar with personal insight, who needs someone else to confirm his existence as a character. His motivation doesn't tie him to the development of the other characters, or to the unresolved issues raised in the SS arc.

Aizen reminds me of the supposed revelation of the plan to harness the power of the Soukyoku; it seemed commonsense enough--big, mostly unguarded superweapon, swing it around and people die--but in the end everything boiled down to something completely different, and I wouldn't be surprised if Aizen himself is yet another blind for a plot leading back to Soul Society.

[Guildenstern]

On another note I keep wondering if, if the parallels keep going, Aizen's going to be betrayed at the end of this arc and someone is going to be shown to have been manipulating him. He's a pretty straightforward villian--terrifically powerful, ambitious for the sake of having reached the limits of that power, sociopathic, personally void, cunning yet perfectly willing to explain his motivations, ect. He's almost too clean cut, and despite being the major antagonist he's had little to no character development himself.
JESUS CHRIST IT'S A LION GET IN THE CAR :3
...Yeah, this is pretty much what I think too.

I wouldn't be surprised if Aizen himself is yet another blind for a plot leading back to Soul Society.
Dude, you're giving away our cracked out secrets. Shhhhhhhh.

[Ros]

Dude, you're giving away our cracked out secrets. Shhhhhhhh.

IT'S YAMAMOTOI have no idea what you're talking about.IT'S YAMAMOTO

[Marionette]

These similarities aren't because there's some random underlying meaning to it...it's because this sort of development offers the most chances to show a character's growth and conflicts and whatnot. Like the Hero cycle in literature...they could come up with something else, but it'd be foolish and a lot less interesting, development-wise.

I mean...what'd you like to see happen? There was something different with the Bounto arc, and that was a failure.
An interesting author can tell more than one story, I hope, or else there's no point to reading. And the Bounto arc is filler from a anime team that's not good with fillers, how can you even campare that with the actual story line?

[Beee]

Meanwhile, Grimmjow has a bit of Byakuya-ness because he had 3 fights with Ichigo in which the 1st and 2nd fights are basically won by them and the 3rd is won by Ichigo.

I think he actually has traits of most characters ichi battles in the SS arc =o. In the beginning of the 3rd, he's very Kenpachi-ish, and by the end, well...he kinda loses like Renji lost (at least in the end he sounded very renji-ish IMO)

[ezxx]

it's aizen's shikai. we're still in soul society, or he cast kyoka suigetsu on us the readers!

no clue..i expect one hell of a twist at the end, though.

[vaizado]

Ichigo got saved from Byakuya by a hot babe, Yoruichi. Now, he's getting saved by another one, Nell. ><

[Guildenstern]

Ichigo got saved from Byakuya by a hot babe, Yoruichi. Now, he's getting saved by another one, Nell. ><
A transforming hot babe. A-yup. >_>;;

[IvoryOrchid]

On another note I keep wondering if, if the parallels keep going, Aizen's going to be betrayed at the end of this arc and someone is going to be shown to have been manipulating him. He's a pretty straightforward villian--terrifically powerful, ambitious for the sake of having reached the limits of that power, sociopathic, personally void, cunning yet perfectly willing to explain his motivations, ect. He's almost too clean cut, and despite being the major antagonist he's had little to no character development himself.

While that is possible, I have a hard time believing that anyone is actually manipulating (or even can manipulate, for that matter) Aizen, given the kind of character he has been shown to have thus far (that of being a manipulator and illusionist--I still don't believe we've really had a chance to see the "real Aizen"--only the minutest of glimpses). This is not to say that there won't be any betrayals (rather, I find this almost certain), but in this arc I can much more readily see Aizen himself crafting another twist and fooling everyone else for a second time than I can see someone else fooling Aizen. I don't rule out, however, the chance that he won't be manipulated in subsequent arcs (because, really--that would be so awesome xD).

A transforming hot babe. A-yup. >_>;;

Don't know if this has been already mentioned before on another forum but... Who wants to bet that Halibel is the current #3 with a personal grudge/vendetta against Nel which will shortly be made known? xP

[wakeskater]

i think we are starting to see the difference in the arcs recently, mainly at the point where ichigo said he wasnt just there to rescue inoue, in this arc hes finally wanting to kick some major ass... hes got a hit list this time, and it aint just a few names

[debbiechan]

Don't know if this has been already mentioned before on another forum but... Who wants to bet that Halibel is the current #3 with a personal grudge/vendetta against Nel which will shortly be made known? xP

I hope she's this arc's Soi Fong and that there's a very sexy fight!

[Jasse]

As sad as it sounds, the love/shouju elements in the Bleach storyline are going on a much smoother rate than its action counterpart(which lately have made me lose all interest in whatever is related about pairings in this manga, because it should be the shounen part that counts and not the romantic one(that should compliment the story and not overwhelm it).

In SS arc, both the romantic subtleties and the action proceeded smoothly and beautifully and was done right, atleast the readers weren't overwhelmed by either one of them in a negative way.
but with this parody arc, the supposed romance has ignited fan wars and Kubo's intentional comparisons between Orihime and Rukia and Ichigo's reactions to either girl's (whether it'd be the reunion/the reason...and so forth etc...the problem we can't exactly put the blame entirely on the fandom because the comparisons and contrasts were inevitable and have been intentional on Kubo's part. Introducing eye candy characters like the transformed Nel(whose very existence is convenient), doesn't help either and when discussions focused on Ichigo's harem or how he is da luckiest man in the world.., you know the plot and what binds the story is missing.

The pace is not also slow in this arc but very draggy, compare Byakukya/Ichigo fight and Ishida/ Mayuri fight to the sZayel/Ishida/Renji fight, every chapter in the former fights counts and has developed the fight in a way it could reach its conclusion(there was no filler chapter in a sense), but the way the sZayel fight continues is how to keep the characters stuck in the fight as long as possible thus making the entire set of characters who are in the fight look dumb and weak.

Hopefully, I will be proven wrong. but i am not gonna get my hopes high.

[Guildenstern]

Oooh, I was hoping someone would respond again to this topic, I like talking about it. Have some tl;dr, won't you? :3

As sad as it sounds, the love/shouju elements in the Bleach storyline are going on a much smoother rate than its action counterpart(which lately have made me lose all interest in whatever is related about pairings in this manga, because it should be the shounen part that counts and not the romantic one(that should compliment the story and not overwhelm it).
*puts on srs bznz hat*
Where do you see romance threatening to overwhelm the story? The only thing romance is threatening to overwhelm is Orihime, not the plot, not Ichigo and certainly not the fights. Orihime's feelings are the only clearly typecast 'romantic' feelings so far in the story besides Hinamori. Keep in mind that so far her feelings are one-sided and have no impact on Ichigo or the plot except where it drives her motivation, so thus far I think the arc has been doing OK with the whole 'omg shoujo kawaiiiiii ^__________^'. If Ichigo were bumbling around like a dumbshit having suddenly manifested a zomg love for Orihime who he has hardly noticed beyond 'hay inoue iz ur frend r u ok inoue healz plz ok thx' thus far in the plot I would agree with you. XD

but with this parody arc, the supposed romance has ignited fan wars and Kubo's intentional comparisons between Orihime and Rukia and Ichigo's reactions to either girl's (whether it'd be the reunion/the reason...and so forth etc...the problem we can't exactly put the blame entirely on the fandom because the comparisons and contrasts were inevitable and have been intentional on Kubo's part.
Well, he may be trying to invoke an inevitable comparison to SS arc with the way the symbolism and the characters are set up, but SS arc this really, really isn't-- the whole setting, mood and enemies are different, and even Ichigo is accused of ambivalence whereas in SS arc you could accuse him of -anything- but uncertainty.
Trying to invoke a comparison between the behaviour of Orihime and Rukia really isn't valid-- they're different people and despite the similarities of their situations the circumstances are different enough to where you can't really say "Well, _____ did this so ______ should be doing that". Rukia was really a prisoner-- you can't exactly say the same about Orihime, and besides-- Rukia was under an execution deadline, Orihime is in a more Stockholm Syndrome-type situation. Apples, oranges. XD

I agree though that comparison of the situations is valid. The two reunion scenes were marked in their differences, and like I said-- the HM arc 'reunion' scene was so anticlimatic as to be annoying. As to why he's writing it this way is anyone's guess.

Also, romantic fanwars? Over what? This arc? This magnificently barren of anything remotely resembling Ichigo's inner thought process HM arc? XD When Ichigo manifests an interest in Orihime beyond 'hay inoue!' to warrant a fanwar, call me. I'll bring popcorn and beer. XD I didn't think people took all that business -that- seriously. XD

Introducing eye candy characters like the transformed Nel(whose very existence is convenient), doesn't help either and when discussions focused on Ichigo's harem or how he is da luckiest man in the world.., you know the plot and what binds the story is missing.
>___>;; This has been an endless source of bitching between Ros and myself for about a week now. Ichigo ATM in this arc, and especially with the advent of Nel has been given a pass on doing anything particularly groundbreaking. Grimmjow? PASS! Nnoitra shows up and puts him down. Now he's being given a pass against Nnoitra too by the advent of Nel and Nel's fantabulous tits. I could understand a parallel between Yoruichi breaking up Ichigo/Byakuya fight and this except for the fact that Nel's planning on kicking Nnoitra's ass for him. I've never seen Kubo baby a character before, but I'm hoping future events prove that Nel is not Ichigo's carte blanche in HM.

Well, I've been probably in a very annoying fashionbitching about the 'missing plot' element in Bleach for a few months, but I realize it's not so much that I'm missing the plot so much as...this arc just lacks the SS arc emotion. Ichigo has no focus and no drive-- he goes from fight to fight to fight with no reflection, no insight, and no evidence of what is driving him other than "I'll kick all your asses and then I'll get all my friend INCLUDING THE ONE YOU STOLE and then I'll go home. Yeah." Yes, but why? Why are you so comitted to kicking all their asses, Ichigo? Where is the reason behind all this fighting? Where is the SS arc style "I'm gonna save Rukia and I'm going to save Rukia, and I'm going to do that and kick some butt and then go home with everybody, because I want to save Rukia. Yeah.". Where are Ichigo's thoughts on what he's doing? Where is the relentless focus on Ichigo's feelings and thoughts that made the SS arc seem so much more driven?

It's just one more twisted comparison to SS arc, in the long run, I guess. SS arc was marked by it's high emotion, tight focus and results-driven effort-- HM arc seems to be marked by indecision and panic, jumbled crazy aimless psuedo-focus and it's lack of a clearly defined goal. SS arc drove home to us over and over why Ichigo and Co. were in SS...HM arc only makes us question why he's there, to the point where Kubo has people actually questioning, guessing and poking holes in what Ichigo believes is the reason he came.

This arc is marked in it's devotion to chaotic elements and a general malaise. What better contrast, no?

Hopefully, I will be proven wrong. but i am not gonna get my hopes high.
Haha, I may bitch and moan and piss around about Orihime's monstrosity of a dialogue ATM and wolf-whistle about Szayel's sexy, sexy release-- but I'm actually not that cynical. XD I've not seen Kubo severely baby a character or a plotline yet, and I'm not ready to believe he'll fumble it just yet. XD I'm sure once we get to the end of this arc and look back on it we'll all be like "...Dude. Brah."

I'm waiting for Aizen's splendid denouement where he comes out in a cape and a white satin sheath dress on a balcony like in Evita, sings "Don't Cry For Me Hueco Mundo" and then explains to Ichigo that it was all a setup to reinact SS arc 'cause he was bored and wanted to dress up like Fay Wray.

..and then Gin kills him like in Carmen and becomes the true villain!!! >:O

[Jasse]

Where do you see romance threatening to overwhelm the story? The only thing romance is threatening to overwhelm is Orihime, not the plot, not Ichigo and certainly not the fights. Orihime's feelings are the only clearly typecast 'romantic' feelings so far in the story besides Hinamori. Keep in mind that so far her feelings are one-sided and have no impact on Ichigo or the plot except where it drives her motivation, so thus far I think the arc has been doing OK with the whole 'omg shoujo kawaiiiiii ^__________^'. If Ichigo were bumbling around like a dumbshit having suddenly manifested a zomg love for Orihime who he has hardly noticed beyond 'hay inoue iz ur frend r u ok inoue healz plz ok thx' thus far in the plot I would agree with you. XD

I admit, threaten or overwhelm are big words, I am just saying the development of romance(even if one-sided) is smoother and do not feel disjointed as the action is. These are only my feelings. I am not saying what i feel is right.

Well, he may be trying to invoke an inevitable comparison to SS arc with the way the symbolism and the characters are set up, but SS arc this really, really isn't-- the whole setting, mood and enemies are different, and even Ichigo is accused of ambivalence whereas in SS arc you could accuse him of -anything- but uncertainty.
Trying to invoke a comparison between the behaviour of Orihime and Rukia really isn't valid-- they're different people and despite the similarities of their situations the circumstances are different enough to where you can't really say "Well, _____ did this so ______ should be doing that". Rukia was really a prisoner-- you can't exactly say the same about Orihime, and besides-- Rukia was under an execution deadline, Orihime is in a more Stockholm Syndrome-type situation. Apples, oranges. XD

I agree though that comparison of the situations is valid.


He is invoking the comparisons, I know that Rukia and Orihime cases are different. I am talking more about Ichigo's reactions to Orihime and Rukia, the differences and all, Does it play romantically or not? whether it'd be the reunion/the encouragement/the post Grimmjaw fight/ when Ichigo held Orihime on his arm. Ichigo is watched and the coupling fans and even to lesser extent non coupling fans are analyzing every Ichigo reaction(action) or lack of reaction on whether or not is a base of friendship or romance or for non coupling fans a sign that Ichigo has finally admitted his love of fighting.(Am I mistaken...or imagining things? Differences in opinions are heightened because admitting that Ichigo came to HM for a double motive.
What I meant is that "romance" or the lack of it does play a role, Kubo meant it to play a role. Its an angle in HM arc that is not ridiculed cause it further shows Ichigo's motives. Even if i don't care about romance in bleach at all, comparing Ichigo's reaction or lack of it toward Orihime and Rukia and Chad helps me understand his character and priorities. I am just saying romance is an angle.
and an important angle at that, Orihime is the shojou character of bleach and its her arc.

Which brings me to this:


Also, romantic fanwars? Over what? This arc?


Chapter 270, you and I were here. Its a prime intentional example employed by Kubo to enhance the comparisons Ichigo actions toward Orihime/Rukia which already exist beyond Kubo's control cause both are/were damsels in distress in their respective arcs.

I'm hoping future events prove that Nel is not Ichigo's carte blanche in HM.

Me as well.

Where are Ichigo's thoughts on what he's doing? Where is the relentless focus on Ichigo's feelings and thoughts that made the SS arc seem so much more driven?

I agree, Ichigo's lack of inner monologue is interesting.

I admit, i may be a bit cynical, like i said, I hope for a fitting good ending for this arc, where everything is tied.The Ichigo-Orihime development ends up in a way that affects the plot and affects Orihime's decision. If Kubo delivers, I'll retract most of my critics.

[Hurley]

one thing i felt bout the SS arc was in the beggining i was like i didnt want to have loads of characters but i ended up dealing with it (i mean the 13 captains and there subs) but this one i dont feel that. event though thers only 10 espada etc.. so either somthing has changed for me at least or im just used to large numbers of characters now lol. eitherway yea i noticed a few similarites but i still enhoy it. if he does it again witha 3rd arc thats the same rescue theme then ill be upset.

[Michsi]

My biggest fear is that the reason behind the SS arc= HM arc plotline is that Kubo Tite intends to use the same "ingredients" that made SS such a big succes. I'm not sure but I think Bleach gained popuarity and became so well liked after the abduction of Rukia and the introduction of the other Shinigami. I remember that I LIKED Bleach before SS , but I LOVED it when SS started. I can't think of any other reason why there are so many similarities. Yes , if you were to thoroughly analyze the two arcs one would come up with more diffrences than similarities, but it's natural that the author wouldn't want to make it obvious. Honestly I half expect Nell to grab Ichigo and escape with the excuse that there is no way she could defeat Noitora/Ulquiorra/who-ever-might-show-up and it's better to *live to fight another day" , leaving Orihime behind , so we can have the token last minute rescue by reaveling a mind boggling power up as a result of an extremly excruciating secret trainig . Ok maybe I'm exagerating a little but if it did happen, it wouldn't surprise me one bit , only dissapoint me.