Ichigo was an arrancar?

[Swajio]

Remember this?
http://groups.msn.com/-Bleach-/chapter222.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3245
In this chapter love says ichigo is now a full hollow at the bottom of the page. But if you look at ichigo's right eye a piece of his mask is missing.Which would normally mean his tranformation is not complete since he is missing some of his mask. Basically what I am trying to say is that maybe since ichigo with his hollow side dominant is a vaizard,meaning he is not comepletely shinigami. So maybe that means when ogihci takes control he not a complete hollow but an arrancar, and as long as ichigo or the shinigami side of his power still exist he can't become a full hollow. That could also mean that an arrancar could become a vaizard if he lost control of his shinigami side.

Maybe I'm being over annalytical but I just had to get this idea out of my head.

[Rain]

very interesting idea, but I think you're thinking about it too much:D.

Ichigo was a shinigami first so he can't be an arrancar (This will probably lead to some debate though)

When I first saw that I thought that maybe the Vizard can go into almost full hollow form, and not just use the mask.

[Riekie]

If that piece was not missing above his right eye it would've mean that he lost against Shirosaki...meaning he would stay a Hollow and thus be killed by the Vaizard.

[aznxenocide]

Remember this?
http://groups.msn.com/-Bleach-/chapter222.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3245
In this chapter love says ichigo is now a full hollow at the bottom of the page. But if you look at ichigo's right eye a piece of his mask is missing.Which would normally mean his tranformation is not complete since he is missing some of his mask. Basically what I am trying to say is that maybe since ichigo with his hollow side dominant is a vaizard,meaning he is not comepletely shinigami. So maybe that means when ogihci takes control he not a complete hollow but an arrancar, and as long as ichigo or the shinigami side of his power still exist he can't become a full hollow. That could also mean that an arrancar could become a vaizard if he lost control of his shinigami side.

Maybe I'm being over annalytical but I just had to get this idea out of my head.

You mean...the other way around, right?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right about the fact that Shirosaki can't take full control of Ichigo while Ichigo's still there...I mean, for Shirosaki to take full control, that'd mean he'd have to have already defeated Ichigo, right?

[Sergelia]

Well, before the end, we'll see at least one more Shirosaki takeover, and the grand finale between him and Ichigo. The way things are going, the last thing Ichigo needs is an inner enemy, and he's going to have to take care of that before even thinking of developing some new hax powers.

The current status quo won't hold for much longer. Sooner or later Ichigo will need to fess up and take care of Shirosaki for good -- for better or worse. The line between a Vaizard and an Arrancar is way too thin and too easily broken. Even Ulquiorra noted that Ichigo is 'like them'. Do you really think a Shounen Hero (tm) will win using Dark Powerzz and such? I don't.


And, heh at the OP. I think you're just thinking too deep into it... Ichigo was *never* wholly Hollow, so he naturally isn't an Arrancar. Never mind me being of opinion that an Arrancar and a Vaizard are more or less the same, the issue of morality aside.

[Saffire]

"For good"? Ichigo can't "kill" Shirosaki, they're too closely related. He might as well try to kill Zangetsu (and in fact, he probably would be). It won't work without completely destroying his spiritual power.

[Sergelia]

I don't mean 'kill' Shirosaki. I meant 'totally overpower Shirosaki to the point where he no longer exists as a separate mindset which can overtake Ichigo's body, ever again.'

Shirosaki can't be killed because he doesn't really exist in the physical sense. I always thought of him as Ichigo's 'separate personality'; and separate personalities CAN be dealt with. In real life as just personalities, in fiction as white haired dudes with katanas.

Well I guess I just failed to make sense... as always. :(

[wakeskater]

well he could have already come to terms with shirosaki, since shirosaki said the next time he was close to death he would come visit him. and after he was owned by ulqui he was close to death, then after he was healed, he could hold his mask for alot longer just magically... so he might have already come to terms and it will just show it later

[Jhaxe]

I'm still lost about that part when he was defeated. I can understand him having the resolve to fight, but I mean...to just magically be able to keep it up that long? And while it's breaking? I think we need some insight into what was happening in Ichigo's mind as he was dying before Hime healed him.

As for the arrancar Ichigo theory, coming from the Shinigami side, Ichigo can't technically be an arrancar. However, as previously stated, the line is thin, the only thing truly separating them from one another is the side they originally came from. But then again, when Ichigo uses his mask, he merely summons hollow powers, unlike the arrancar who simply release their true forms.

I don't really think you could consider Ichigo an arrancar, however, the line between them and what he is now could easily be blurred if he continues to change at this rate, since the Espada have already deemed him 'like them.'

[Tenonee]

2 cents:

For the Shirosaki vs. Ichigo thing: I always saw Shirosaki and Zangetsu literally as parts of Ichigo sort of like feelings he had deep inside and his inner battles were more to give his mind peace than anything. If you look at the fight between Ichigo and Shirosaki when he gets the will to fight he starts defeating Shirosaki not by literally slashing him but turning his version of Zangetsu black etc. Shirosaki comes forth when Ichigo is unsure of himself and doesnt have the will to battle so if that happens again then BAM Shirosaki returns but if Ichigo can maintain his will he'll be ok.

As for Ichigo being an arrancar, Rukia said earlier in the manga that the hollow mask forms as the last part of hollow transformation so, if the mask had completed, it means Ichigo would officially be a hollow. Why did the hollow mask appear before anything then? That's what happens when Ichigo battles with Shirosaki, Shinji didnt say "Has it finally begun?" until the whole appeared in Ichigo's chest, I'm assuming he was talking about the hollow transformation. So the battle w/ Shirosaki brings part of the mask but the mask can't be completed without Ichigo being a full hollow. However, Vizards pull out their whole mask when they transform, this may just represent that they can activate their hollow form and still maintain control (that's why they need to subdue their hollow side or hollow "feelings").

So I would say that in order to be a Vizard or an Arrancar you have to have full control of your body while both your hollow powers and shinigami powers are influencing it. Therefore half-mask Ichigo (w/ or w/o a hollow body) isnt either Vizard or Arrancar, rather just a body influenced by two forces and two minds. Bonus: based on this I would say the "perfect hybrid" could be when both minds are in agreement with each other and working to their full potential... but that's not relevant :p

Hope that makes enough sense.

[Agmaster]

Do you really think a Shounen Hero (tm) will win using Dark Powerzz and such? I don't.

Allow me to welcome you to our world. The world where happy has been replaced by emo, where tough as nails replaced by brooding and arrogant, the mirrors well into it's turn, light is dark, and happy light characters are too one dimensional to even hold 12 year old japanese kids hooked on melon balls.

[Evility]

Well there could be an easy explaining for the missing piece of the mask. Probably the fight was too tought and the mask was just... broken? If I remember well, the mask had saved Ichigo once or twice and it was quite damaged when they found it after the fights he had.

And about Ichigo being an arrancar... I don't think it's possible. like @Rain said, he was first a shinigami. Besides, even if we don't know a lot for his past and especially his family [talkin` about Isshin and his shinigami powers] - I don't think there's even the slightest possibility for him to be another crazy experiment, brought to you by SS or Urahara. O.o

[Otobse]

2 cents:

For the Shirosaki vs. Ichigo thing: I always saw Shirosaki and Zangetsu literally as parts of Ichigo sort of like feelings he had deep inside and his inner battles were more to give his mind peace than anything. If you look at the fight between Ichigo and Shirosaki when he gets the will to fight he starts defeating Shirosaki not by literally slashing him but turning his version of Zangetsu black etc. Shirosaki comes forth when Ichigo is unsure of himself and doesnt have the will to battle so if that happens again then BAM Shirosaki returns but if Ichigo can maintain his will he'll be ok.

As for Ichigo being an arrancar, Rukia said earlier in the manga that the hollow mask forms as the last part of hollow transformation so, if the mask had completed, it means Ichigo would officially be a hollow. Why did the hollow mask appear before anything then? That's what happens when Ichigo battles with Shirosaki, Shinji didnt say "Has it finally begun?" until the whole appeared in Ichigo's chest, I'm assuming he was talking about the hollow transformation. So the battle w/ Shirosaki brings part of the mask but the mask can't be completed without Ichigo being a full hollow. However, Vizards pull out their whole mask when they transform, this may just represent that they can activate their hollow form and still maintain control (that's why they need to subdue their hollow side or hollow "feelings").

So I would say that in order to be a Vizard or an Arrancar you have to have full control of your body while both your hollow powers and shinigami powers are influencing it. Therefore half-mask Ichigo (w/ or w/o a hollow body) isnt either Vizard or Arrancar, rather just a body influenced by two forces and two minds. Bonus: based on this I would say the "perfect hybrid" could be when both minds are in agreement with each other and working to their full potential... but that's not relevant :p

Hope that makes enough sense.

hi just one thing dont know about the manga but in the anime rukia said that the mask wasnt neccesary till the end not that it was the last thing to develop although uruhara did say that it usually went explode reform with mask when ichigo started to change by growing the mask first

[twsl]

Remember this?
http://groups.msn.com/-Bleach-/chapter222.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3245
In this chapter love says ichigo is now a full hollow at the bottom of the page. But if you look at ichigo's right eye a piece of his mask is missing.Which would normally mean his tranformation is not complete since he is missing some of his mask. Basically what I am trying to say is that maybe since ichigo with his hollow side dominant is a vaizard,meaning he is not comepletely shinigami. So maybe that means when ogihci takes control he not a complete hollow but an arrancar, and as long as ichigo or the shinigami side of his power still exist he can't become a full hollow. That could also mean that an arrancar could become a vaizard if he lost control of his shinigami side.

Maybe I'm being over annalytical but I just had to get this idea out of my head.

=DD that would be awesomies (gomen for stealing your word riek T_T) but in that pic ichigo still has a sword while arrancar don't have that unless they seal their true form. i think the vizards hollow form could be a new race or smth like the awakened ones from claymore ^^

[WatanukiXXX]

Oser over at BE theorised that Ichigo was a perfect hybrid of Shinigami and Hollow. He lost his Shinigami powers and regained them at the same time as gaining Hollow powers. This meant he acquired both power sets at once.

Oser pointed out that Vizards were (let's say, for convenience's sake) 70% Shinigami and 30% Hollow, Arrancar were 70% Hollow and 30% Shinigami. Ichigo is unique. He can access 100% Hollow and 100% Shinigami powers.

(ignore the numbers, they are just for illustration)

I happen to like Oser's theory and agree with him.

[tari101190]

Oser over at BE theorised that Ichigo was a perfect hybrid of Shinigami and Hollow. He lost his Shinigami powers and regained them at the same time as gaining Hollow powers. This meant he acquired both power sets at once.

Oser pointed out that Vizards were (let's say, for convenience's sake) 70% Shinigami and 30% Hollow, Arrancar were 70% Hollow and 30% Shinigami. Ichigo is unique. He can access 100% Hollow and 100% Shinigami powers.

(ignore the numbers, they are just for illustration)

I happen to like Oser's theory and agree with him.
well that theory is wrong imo...the time you get your hollows powers shouldn't make a difference. if it did and ichigo was perfect as in 100%/100%, then he wouldn't have needed to learn to control his hollow, cos it would've already been balanced out.

like natural arancar take longer to reach their full power and fully transform into a perfect hybrid, while when you use th hougyoku, the transformation is instantaneous. that is a perfect hybrid.

read this thread...all posts all explain the same idea.http://bleachasylum.com/showthread.php?t=2229

(personally ppl on bleachexile nvr hav great theories imo, thats why i dnt like it. they always base their theory's on pure assumption, with no facts or info from the manga. even in debates they say stuff that isn't true or just dn't happen in the manga asifhtey dnt have good enough knowledge of the manga b4 posing stuff. plus they swear and are agrressive andrude alot.)

Remember this?
http://groups.msn.com/-Bleach-/chapt...o&PhotoID=3245 (http://groups.msn.com/-Bleach-/chapter222.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3245)
In this chapter love says ichigo is now a full hollow at the bottom of the page. But if you look at ichigo's right eye a piece of his mask is missing.Which would normally mean his tranformation is not complete since he is missing some of his mask. Basically what I am trying to say is that maybe since ichigo with his hollow side dominant is a vaizard,meaning he is not comepletely shinigami. So maybe that means when ogihci takes control he not a complete hollow but an arrancar, and as long as ichigo or the shinigami side of his power still exist he can't become a full hollow. That could also mean that an arrancar could become a vaizard if he lost control of his shinigami side.

Maybe I'm being over annalytical but I just had to get this idea out of my head.
he wasn't an arrancar, his hollow transformation was happeneingng so it would've formed a ful mask. it was pracrically complete, but obviously wasn't. ogihci hadn't defeated ichigo in their mind battle anyway, so ichigo was still resisting...which you can barely see cos the transformation wasn't 100%, it was like 98% or wateva.

[Tenonee]

I still find the idea of Ichigo being a perfect hybrid plausible for a couple reasons:

1. We have yet to see an example of a perfect hybrid or have someone describe one in depth.

2. Ichigo does have full access to both hollow and shinigami powers as far as we know. Maybe not when Kurosaki is controlling the body but Shirosaki who can be seen as just another part of Ichigo (see my other post) still does.

3. Having a slow awakening doesn't show that a spirit isn't a perfect hybrid by any means. In fact, if you look at trends in manga and just stories in general, slow progress usually signifies some sort of greatness. In this case slow progress would be Ichigo mastering both sides and greatness would be the same as being a perfect hybrid.

Don't get me wrong, I am not agreeing that Ichigo is a perfect hybrid, I still think the mystery that surrounds "the perfect hybrid" prevents this kind of theory from being any more than speculation. I do however, believe solid evidence against the theory hasn't presented itself yet, thus making it possible.

[WatanukiXXX]

posted by tari101190
(personally ppl on bleachexile nvr hav great theories imo, thats why i dnt like it. they always base their theory's on pure assumption, with no facts or info from the manga. even in debates they say stuff that isn't true or just dn't happen in the manga asifhtey dnt have good enough knowledge of the manga b4 posing stuff. plus they swear and are agrressive andrude alot.)

lol. Oser doesn't generally swear or act rude towards people. Although he has been missing from there, so maybe he got tired of the atmosphere too. I certainly am and only barely post there.

posted by tari101190
like natural arancar take longer to reach their full power and fully transform into a perfect hybrid, while when you use th hougyoku, the transformation is instantaneous. that is a perfect hybrid.


To me the term perfect hybrid signifies being able to wield both power sets at the same time, at maximum efficiency. Oser's theory gives a reason for why Ichigo might be a perfect hybrid in this regard.
The Hougyoku transforms a Hollow into an Arrancar perfectly, no defects. It does not create a perfect hybrid in the sense that I describe, it merely creates a perfect hybrid that has no defects.
The fact that Ichigo has to struggle to control his Hollow is paralleled by the fact he had to fight with Old Man Zangetsu to acquire his Bankai.
Hollow powers are by definition negative and dangerous. Of course trying to wield them requires greater control and strength. Look at how Hollows evolve and become stronger by devouring their own kind. For Ichigo to gain more power he has to undergo greater risk. The greater the struggle the greater the reward.
Therefore in order to acquire greater mastery of his Hollow powers he must undergo greater challenges in subduing his Hollow half (compared to the relative 'ease' of mastering his Shinigami powers).

posted by tari101190
if it did and ichigo was perfect as in 100%/100%, then he wouldn't have needed to learn to control his hollow, cos it would've already been balanced out.


The 100/100 % is not about control but about being able to wield both powers. Its about having access to Shinigami and Hollow powers at full capacity simultaneously. Ichigo is the only character that can do this. He is the only character with the potential to access both power sets at 100% capacity.
Yet he still needs to learn to control and utilise each power set and each ability inherent within each power set.

posted by Tenonee
I still think the mystery that surrounds "the perfect hybrid" prevents this kind of theory from being any more than speculation.

Oh I think the theory has some merit because there is little evidence against it as well. At the same time I am well aware that the notion of a perfect hybrid may not adequately describe Ichigo Kurosaki. I suspect he is more a perfect fusion that has engendered an entirely new being. He is neither Vizard or Arrancar or a hybrid but something different.
He might have unwittingly reached the pinnacle of spiritual evolutionary potential that Aizen seems to crave. Which may explain Aizen's subtle interest in our dear 'ryoka' boy ;)

[tari101190]

the perfect hybrid i meant -
arrancar was sum1 who has reached their new limit of power as a hybrid and is comoltetly human.
-vizard was sum1 who could acces their hollow power for limitless (maybe) time at their new limit.

anyway...i dnt think a perfect hyvrid, acceseing 100% hollow and 100% shinigami powers really exist...

arrancar 'shinigami powers' is just having access to their zanpakuto spirit, which they lost access to as a hollow. accessing their zanpakuto probably increases their overall potential strength. although when they manifest their zanpakuto, perhaps the actual zanpakuto spirit i supressed soonly their personality remains dominant. their current personality would havebeen the emptiness whichh overtook their human personality. accessing the zanpakuto transforms them into a human form form i guess (only if powerful enough i think???). then that zanpakuto seals up the orinial holow true form.

vizard hollow powers are just the shinigami accessing the emptiness within their heart, which reprsents the hollow thy could've become. accessing this power increases your overall potential strength i think. but this power is from the emptiness ofthe hollow, so ifthe proces is natural you probably need to supress this emptiness so it doesn't take you over, making the dominant personality in your body. when you access the hollow you will phsically transform into a hollow, bu the degree of the transformation depends on your control i think. like if you can control it only ur mask forms...otherwiese u lose urself and completelly turn int a hollow.

i'm starting to agree now that you have like a certain percentage powwer from each side like u wrote sumtimes. cos vizard seem to have energy which feels like holllows and shinigami energy, while arrancar seems to be the same.

although an arancarwould always have higher power of hollow than shinigami cos thhey're in the end just hollows in a sense.

vizard are in the end just shinigami, with addded power of a hollow too.


The 100/100 % is not about control but about being able to wield both powers. Its about having access to Shinigami and Hollow powers at full capacity simultaneously. Ichigo is the only character that can do this.
what do u mean by this? i dnt see how only ichigo does this...nobody can use both powers to full capacity imo...but what do u mean, i think ijust dnt understand.

[inuygoku]

Remember this?
http://groups.msn.com/-Bleach-/chapter222.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3245
In this chapter love says ichigo is now a full hollow at the bottom of the page. But if you look at ichigo's right eye a piece of his mask is missing.Which would normally mean his tranformation is not complete since he is missing some of his mask. Basically what I am trying to say is that maybe since ichigo with his hollow side dominant is a vaizard,meaning he is not comepletely shinigami. So maybe that means when ogihci takes control he not a complete hollow but an arrancar, and as long as ichigo or the shinigami side of his power still exist he can't become a full hollow. That could also mean that an arrancar could become a vaizard if he lost control of his shinigami side.

Maybe I'm being over annalytical but I just had to get this idea out of my head.

well that is kind of like my theory. Ichigo was in his inner mind battling his hollow self. Well since ichigo is 90% fully hollow formed up XD. could you consider Ichigo a Vastoolorde because of his size. they are suppose to take on a humanoid form but that iffy because of the fact the is taller and has a tail. but you could still possibly say he could.

here is the 2nd part to it. lets say ichigo is able to turn into a complete hollow and control it. could he break his mask and become an arrancar. thus reaching a Super powerful form EX SS4 transformation super saiyan ape form. thus resizing into a super saiyan 4. but full hollow and then breaking mask becoming a true vizard.

XD

PS if you cant understand it really well i am sorry i am half wake right now gomen edit in the morning XD

[tari101190]

well that is kind of like my theory. Ichigo was in his inner mind battling his hollow self. Well since ichigo is 90% fully hollow formed up XD. could you consider Ichigo a Vastoolorde because of his size. they are suppose to take on a humanoid form but that iffy because of the fact the is taller and has a tail. but you could still possibly say he could.

here is the 2nd part to it. lets say ichigo is able to turn into a complete hollow and control it. could he break his mask and become an arrancar. thus reaching a Super powerful form EX SS4 transformation super saiyan ape form. thus resizing into a super saiyan 4. but full hollow and then breaking mask becoming a true vizard.

XD

PS if you cant understand it really well i am sorry i am half wake right now gomen edit in the morning XDichigo couldn't be vastolorde.

vastolorde are menos. menos are the fusion of loads and loads of hollows...

ichigo was just a very poweful hollow.

he couldn't become an arrancar after that in a way anyway. arrancar become what they are in order to get their shiinigai powers, ichigo would already have his shinigami powers so he couldn't really become an arrancar...maybe he could take human form so hewould be an arrancar maybe...but he woudn't be the same as others cos it wouldn't make him any more powerful i think....thats wat u just calle a true vizard anyway.

[inuygoku]

ichigo couldn't be vastolorde.

vastolorde are menos. menos are the fusion of loads and loads of hollows...

ichigo was just a very poweful hollow.

he couldn't become an arrancar after that in a way anyway. arrancar become what they are in order to get their shiinigai powers, ichigo would already have his shinigami powers so he couldn't really become an arrancar...maybe he could take human form so hewould be an arrancar maybe...but he woudn't be the same as others cos it wouldn't make him any more powerful i think....thats wat u just calle a true vizard anyway.

well that is true. but ichigo is Super power he isnt your run of the mill captain he probably as strong as aizen. 2-3 more powerful. then a captain . for EX remember when ichigo was fighting byakuya when his hollow side appered he had half a mask. right so tech. u could have called him a arrancar because his hollow just obtain rights over the body he had a broken mask and was a hollow. thus ichigo at that time was a arrancar. ichigo could easliy take on SS and kick their butts if he wanted to. be he dont he fight Azien and we all know ichigo is going to win so thus it proves my point Vastoolordes are more power then a AVERAGE captain not Aizen or ichigo. ichigo when he become a vizard is even more powerful. but he will be most powerful when he reach full hollow form so i guess you wouldn't call him a vastoolorde you would say he is in the same class range. so if ichigo's hollow he is a humaniod hollow doesnt that represent anything.

[tari101190]

well that is true. but ichigo is Super power he isnt your run of the mill captain he probably as strong as aizen. 2-3 more powerful. then a captain . thats impossible and proven wrong already...
aizen is 2x captain strength and is stronger than grimmjow by far...his reiatsu brought grimmjow to his knees. ulquiorra is only a bit stronger than grimmjow...ichigo hardly sctrched ulquiorra when he was at full complete power and ulquiorra wasn't. plus aizen stoppe ichigo with one finger in soul society remeber.

for EX remember when ichigo was fighting byakuya when his hollow side appered he had half a mask. right so tech. u could have called him a arrancar because his hollow just obtain rights over the body he had a broken mask and was a hollow. thus ichigo at that time was a arrancar. ichigo's mask wasn't broken...it hadn't finished forming yet. so he wasn't an arrancar. and by definition an arrancar is a hollow who obtained shinigami power...ichigo doesn't fullfill the requirements cos hes not a hollow who obtaned shinigami power.

ichigo could easliy take on SS and kick their butts if he wanted to. be he dont he fight Azien and we all know ichigo is going to win so thus it proves my point Vastoolordes are more power then a AVERAGE captain not Aizen or ichigo. ichigo couldn't take on soul society that easily and win...he is just as strong as some captains, weaker than some and maybe stronger than some (but i doubt he was).

and aizen proved he wasfar stronger than ichigo, and theother captains already. he stopped ichigo so easily with one finger.

aizen is at the peak of shinigami strength...like a vastolorde. so aizen islike vastolorde level, which stronger than a captain.

ichigo when he become a vizard is even more powerful. but he will be most powerful when he reach full hollow form so i guess you wouldn't call him a vastoolorde you would say he is in the same class range. so if ichigo's hollow he is a humaniod hollow doesnt that represent anything.ichigo didn't get more powerful by becoming a vizard. he just learn't to control the hollow power. he couldn't control i to b4. using the powr makes you stronger though yeah.

[WatanukiXXX]

posted by tari101190
what do u mean by this? i dnt see how only ichigo does this...nobody can use both powers to full capacity imo...but what do u mean, i think ijust dnt understand.

I never said he could use both powers to full capacity now. I said Ichigo is the only character with the potential to access both power sets at 100% capacity. This is because he is a perfect hybrid (re: Oser’s theory). Whether or not Ichigo does so is up to Kubo in the future.

I believe that a Vizard will never be able to access or channel their Hollow powers to its fullest because it is not in their original spiritual matrix to do so. It was something additional, or added on.
Also Shinigami powers are the opposite of Hollow powers. A Shinigami accessing Hollow powers will possibly find it inefficient as their natural Shinigami powers counter and neutralizes their Hollow powers. It’s like positive and negative charges. There will always be a loss, no matter how slight, in the power accessed. Thus it is inefficient.

Similarly for Arrancars. They can never fully access or utilize their Shinigami powers perfectly. No Arrancar has shown a shikai or Bankai, or use of Kidou for example. Yes they have similar powers but they are not the same. Resurrecion is not Bankai. Like Vizards the Arrancar will also experience less than 100% efficiency in their power flow.

We have both powers accomplishing similar aims with different methods. Arrancar powers are equivalent to Shinigami powers but not the same. Both groups can match the other. The advantage comes when they face those with only one power set.

An Arrancar potentially has greater advantage over a Shinigami because in addition to their Hollow powers they also have equivalent powers to the Shinigami. Similarly A Vizard has equivalent Hollow powers added to their original Shinigami powers when they fight a mere Hollow.

On the question of nobody being able to access both at full capacity, well we have evidence that one can achieve full capacity in one power set. Note Aizen’s speech. He says he has reached the limits in all form of Shinigami powers. What Aizen means is that he has mastered all four known Shinigami sub sets: Zanpakuto (shikai and bankai), Hoho (Agility which includes Shunpo) , Kidou, and Hakuda (Hand-to-Hand) to their fullest extent. He cannot progress further unless as is speculated he becomes a Vizard.

In this sense, Ichigo potentially can be stronger than Aizen because he can access Shinigami and Hollow powers at an equivalent level. He started out from scratch remember, losing his Shinigami powers and his chain of fate. Then developing his Hollow powers and his Shinigami powers again with Urahara. No side or power has prior claim on Ichigo so to speak. Like a blank slate. There is probably little to no spiritual resistance involved when he accesses either power because he has no power to resist with. This implies maximum efficiency in the flow of power accessed. Ichigo is neither negative or positively charged but neutral and thus both powers flow equally.

Ichigo can go one better. He can potentially do what Aizen did for both Shinigami and Hollow powers. He can master the four main forms of Shinigami abilities to their fullest extent plus the main forms of the Hollow abilities (Hollow Unique ability, Resurrecion, Cero, Hierro, Sonido, Garganta, Bala) to their fullest extent.
Would this not make Ichigo potentially the strongest being in Bleach?

All of the above is simple speculation.

Posted by inuygoku
here is the 2nd part to it. lets say ichigo is able to turn into a complete hollow and control it. could he break his mask and become an arrancar. thus reaching a Super powerful form EX SS4 transformation super saiyan ape form. thus resizing into a super saiyan 4. but full hollow and then breaking mask becoming a true vizard.

Ichigo can lose himself in his Hollow form. This nearly happened when he underwent his training with Shinji. Currently though I am not sure till Kubo gives us more data.

I don’t think it’s possible for an Arrancar to turn into a Vizard and vice versa. Certainly not the way you describe. Arrancars and Vizards are, at the moment, the apex of spiritual evolution in Bleach. Other then the fabled SS King of whom nothing is known, these two groups are the strongest that a spiritual being can aspire to.
The idea that they can somehow transmute into the other would probably make the power levels dragonball-esque to an uncomfortable degree.

Then there is Ichigo who may be a perfect hybrid, or a new being altogether created out of the perfect union of Shinigami and Hollow. But again, till Kubo provides more info this is all endless and fun speculating :D

[tari101190]

i understandd what you mean compltetely now. nothing you said is wrong cos its all from the manga, and your speculation makes sense...

the only thing i dnt get is why you keep saying only ichigo has the potential to wateva...shouldn't all shinigami/vizard be able to max out their hollow and shinigami powers?

[WatanukiXXX]

Aahhh

Ok i think we are at cross purposes. I should make myself clearer.

Both Arrancar and Vizard can max out their powers, so to speak. However when i say this I mean they can train and master their powers to its fullest extent. Everyone can max out their powers given time and training.

A shinigami like Hanatarou can become as spiritually as strong (have the same amount of spiritual power and skill) as Yamamoto with time and training. This doesn't mean Hanatarou develops strong shikai or bankai, just his spiritual power can be the same with time and training. This is just speculation on my part.

When I say Ichigo can access both power sets at 100% efficiency and capacity. What I mean is:

Vizards:

Also Shinigami powers are the opposite of Hollow powers. A Shinigami accessing Hollow powers will possibly find it inefficient as their natural Shinigami powers counter and neutralizes their Hollow powers. It’s like positive and negative charges. There will always be a loss, no matter how slight, in the power accessed. Thus it is inefficient.


I should have said instead of 'Shinigami' the above referred to Vizards. My mistake.
Imagine a Vizard as having a natural positive charge. When they try to use Hollow powers which are negative charge energy what happens?
Ok my maths sucks but + plus - = 0. Positive plus Negative equals Neutral. Both charges cancel each other out.

Let's say a Vizard has 100% +energy and accesses his Hollow powers which are 100%-energy. A certain amount will be cancelled out. It might be 50% +energy cancels out 50% -energy. So his available power will be +50%/-50%.
OR
Because he is a Vizard and his + energy is original to his spirit matrix and thus stronger, then it might have been 1 unit of +energy cancels out 2 units of -energy. Therefore he might have lost say 25% +energy and 50% - energy (cancelled out). Which gives +75%/-50%.

+ energy is shinigami
- energy is Hollow

These numbers can be reversed for Arrancars. The point is neither Vizards nor Arrancars can get 100%/100% because they already started out on one side or another.

Vizards and Arrancar can still max out their mastery of their powers. But I doubt they can max out the efficiency and capacity of their powers.

This is what distinguishes Ichigo from the Arrancar and the Vizard. He starts out at 0. No baseline powers. He then acquires at relatively the same time, both powers. He can access both energies WITHOUT having any prior energy signature resisting or countering it.
When he uses his Shinigami or Hollow powers it is 100% used up. None is wasted canceling the opposite because Ichigo had no power to begin with.

This is how I see the matter. Yep its all theorizing and speculation :D I probably messed up all the numbers and stuff (maths is my achilles heel) :rofl

[Ruffy GEAR 2]

I don't think ichigo is a arrancar, but a hybrid. he turned hollow and shinigani at the same time and the mask always portected him. Ichigos's new bankai transfomation is also not blue anmore but black like his hollow transformation. I think it would be a nice twist for the actual chapter if Ichi lost his will to fight( or talks with shirosaki on purpose) and than learns recursion. it would be f***ing nice to see ichigo have instent healing and some kind of unique hollow anility.