Failing 'Failure'

[Frosted Heart]

I know most of the posters here are in school or recently just finished, so I thought this would make for an interesting debate.

Some schools in Canada are being ‘encouraged’ by the (provincial) governments not to fail any students. It doesn’t matter if they don’t attend class, if they hand in work late (or not at all), or get bad test scores. They don’t want to hold any students back if they can help it, and teachers are sometimes being told by principals to give students leeway when marking their work (i.e. an essay worth 45% will be bumped up to a passing 50%).

On one hand teachers feels it doesn’t teach the student about discipline or consequences. It cheapens the worth of a diploma and doesn’t teach them the course’s material. This also lessens a teacher’s ‘authority’ over a student.

On the other hand, studies shows that students who fail a course are more likely to drop out and have less self-confidence. A lot of doors are shut to them without a high school diploma.

Do you agree with this policy? Would you agree to it as a student? As a parent (imagine you had a kid who attended a school like this)?

Do you think there’s a better way to help struggling students? Discuss. :)

[emoloz]

I don't agree with that because what about the higher achievers they just get higher marks anyways. I think the best way is to educate them right about the world out there. Not boring lectures some encouraging talking and motivation. Students need constant praise and encouragement these days because no ne cna be bothered anymore. I got encouragement and praise and passed High school better than i though and college i seem to be doing fine as well. I think the marking things just a poor attitude to things. Pull your socks up and encourage people. Teachers actually find its the best way to teach as well because they feel proud to get the students through where as they will feel a different kind of remorse when as it would see "going easy" on students.

[McDoogle]

I agree with Emoloz, its not really teaching them anything, its giving them a easy road out which isn't really fair, besides, if it was a case of, giving them extra marks to pass, other kids are going to start falling behind because they know that they don't really have to try that hard to pass anymore. I can understand with some kids/people, they have disabilities like Dyslexia (i have it) which can hold them back, but its not going to help them by simply, giving them a passing grade, they have to learn to overcome the disabilities as much as possible like i have, My Dyslexia was mild but i overcame it by reading subtitles off animé alot etc so its not like its impossible to overcome it.

I do agree that they shouldn't give up on someone because of something like disabilities or flunking school, but really, by giving them an easy route out by giving them leeway, its taking the lazy way out and in essence, giving up on them.

Plus, by putting there marks up, it could have bad side effects later on in life, If they get degree's that they potentially shouldn't have because they don't have the skills, then if they were to get a job where the skill was a large part of it, then when it comes to do a task, they wont be able to do it or do it correctly, and if they don't get fired for a "poor" job, then eventually, the business industry is going to lag behind. When it comes to confidence, im not saying that they shouldn't have confidence, but giving them too much may result in them getting a job that requires skills they don't have but there degree's say they do.

The fact is, don't give students the easy way out, but help them along with with work, if there falling behind with coursework or exams, arrange for them to come back voluntarily so redo or correct work, revise and go over things they don't understand. I was failing my maths because i had missed a week off, but i stayed behind and ended up getting a A. And by actually erning the degree, there confidence is going to be much higher knowing they can actually do what the degree says and there's no risk of stress because of a "poor" job later on in life.

Its basicly a hell of alot better in the long run to just help them with there education, better for them and better for society.

[nightshift]

The kids who drop out are going to be just as bad for society if they get a diploma. I don't want unqualified people doing any kind of job that requires the basic skills gained in high school. Such a policy is detrimental to society as a whole, and frankly, putting people's feelings over what they really deserve and acknowledging a passing grade for failures is just irresponsible.

No confidence is gained from doing poor work and passing...that just encourages laziness. I would transfer my kid out of any school that enacts this kind of policy.

On another note, I can guarantee that rates of crime will be higher in areas that maintain such a cheap philosophy towards education.

[Jaws]

' Without failure, there is no improvements'
I would understand if the student is borderline passing, and his/her grade is 'bumped' slightly up to a passing grade. I do not agree to pass a student if he/she did not even bother to attend classes, or do their assignments. That is just plain laziness, and what the school system is teaching is basically telling all students it is ok to slack, and they'll still graduate.
If that's what a highschool diploma means, then it has absolutely no value. Students should be taught responsibilities, and should know that whatever action they choose, they have to face the consequences. Don't study, don't graduate, and most likely be stuck with lousy job ( if any at all!!! ) ... simple as that. You're in school for a reason, and that is to learn ... Now ... onto the teacher's part : what is a teacher's sole responsibility? To guide and teach his/her students. If a student is having problems in class, a teacher should at least try to find out the cause of it : is it because the subject being taught is too difficult for some students? Or is it because the lesson itself is too dry and boring? Or is it because of something else ....??? Find out the reason, and find away to help the student. If on the teacher's part, he/she just focus on finish teaching a class, and don't pay any attention to the students' needs, then I think the teacher should get a failing grade!

[slayer]

Lets put it in simple terms here, people who strive to get good grades in school are those who will achieve more in life, while those who just sit back and do nothing are the ones who cause society to go in its constant downward spiral. My thoughts are that kids should and have to be failed if the present bad achievement in school. Why? because it causes them to open their eyes towards reality, and what is that reality? simple, "Life wont give it to you easy. It wants blood and sweat in exchange"

No in my highschool those who sitback and relax get nothing, they get summer school, they get to cry when they see their grades, they get to look at their mistakes, and reevaluate their behavior. That way they learn what to do and what not to do in the coming years. If they passed no matter how bad their tests/projects/essays are then they would learn absolutely nothing, they would continue to show inadecuate behavior in the learning areas, continue to turn in mediocre work that will eventually lead to mediocre achievements in society.

Do you want a president who "passed" highschool when he originally was supposed to fail. I sure as hell dont, I dont want any of thos incompetent people near any top position in the country or in the economical business. It just leads towards bigger problems.

[Shannon]

I don't agree with that policy, because to me it feels like you would be cheating knowledge from the students. As someone above me said, failure leads to improvement, and improvement gives you the satisfaction. People learn from their mistakes, and that's how it should be. Study hard, work hard, live hard, and get good grades. You'd be also cheating society if you keep bumping up scores and letting them skip school. Just imagine when they get older, and are off into the real world. You'd have unqualified doctors and CEO's that aren't as smart as they should be. A crash and burn society.

[Frosted Heart]

*puts on fake horns and grabs a red-coloured pitchfork*

I agree with all of you that this policy is more detrimental than helpful, but I’m going to play devil’s advocate today. XD

Studies have shown that people who fail a course are more likely to drop out of school altogether. Surely having them stay in school, even if it’s by giving them some leeway, is better than having them give up entirely? Just imagine the trouble they could get into if they spent the entire day out of school.

Also, keeping them in school increases their chances of seeking extra curricular help. Instead of saying, “I’m going to fail anyway, why bother going?” they could be encouraged to say, “I can still pass if I try.”

Of course highly skilled professions, like doctors, CEOs, and presidents (XD) require more than just grades to get into. They also look at outside test scores (like MCATs) and extra curricular activities (like total hours of volunteering, etc). Slackers won’t be able to get into those jobs, but the high achievers will, so they’re still rewarded for their efforts. But what about middle jobs, like retailers, office workers, etc? They don’t need as much skill as the other jobs, but most still require a high school diploma. At least the kids who remain in school are able to get jobs that aren’t minimum wage, thus are less likely to resort to crime to get by.

[Beee]

I don't agree with the policy because in the end, students lose. Making them pass even if they don't have the necessary grade just doesn't help because it's just not a good preparation for the higher levels where "IF YOU FAIL, YOU FAIL". In university/college, teachers are completely merciless, so giving some leeway to someone in HS will not change things much. So yeah people, don't worry about stuff like "doctors that shouldn't even have passed High School" BECAUSE THEY"LL PHAIL LATER ON ANYWAYS O_O

I think bumping up student grades is really more like "the easy way" and it more like a selfish option by schools to make themselves and their students look better and hide the fact that some people struggle/slack.

Besides, it's insulting to those who work really hard to get good grades if people can pass easily. It takes value away from performing in school and, in the end, it mostly increases the number of people who slack thinking "bah i'll pass anyways". Struggling/slacking students need to get help in a much better way than that... slackers need a good kick in the ass and struggling students need support.


Yet, I don't think a 1-2 point addition so the student doesn't get ''summerschool'd'' is so bad either...:D

[Shinrin]

Alternative school forms would be what i'd say is needed, perhaps even teachers getting along better with the students, so it ain't just seeming like a formallity.

To tell the truth, my bigest problem about school have always been motivation.
Why should i try to do more then what's needed in something i don't find interesting, i've felt that way since the last part of third grade(~9 years old)
To be honest if we talk about how much homework i've done compared to what i should have done through all my school time from elementary to end of High School... I suppose i've done around 15% of my home work(some years more then others ^^')


As i've said i just can't seem to find the motivation to do that stuff, have the same problem in alot other stuff, like sports i don't go all out, i just play in a way where i have fun.
Another thing, im~ 10 kg under what would make me normal weight, so yeah beeing normal weight might be good, but what's the point in spending hours upon hours in a fitness center for something that'll you have to train again and again(not permanent)

[stifflersthedog]

I definatly agree that students should be givin encouragment, and nurtured into strong adults when they leave school. And that what i think there aiming for with this policy, but i do think there going to far to the one side and forgeting that academic success is still important. It'd be great if my boss was like "oh well you tried, dont worry about it, heres a raise" but ya... NOT gonna happen (although i can dream). Students should be failed, but they should have recieved sufficiant motivation beforehand for there failure not to lead to there dropping out. Rather they should be encouraged to try again, and they should be taught to better understand themselves, so they know why they failed. I'm a very strong supporter of Carl Rogers, and the idea of helping yourself. Its an individualistic world out there, and students should be taught to rely on themselves before relying on others, and blah blah blah. I'm gonna stop now.

Basically i rate great idea, but taking it a little to far.

[Adam]

I strongly disagree with it. The real world isn't that forgiving, so I don't believe it's fair for the student to receive a passing grade when they really don't deserve one. While the confidence the kid gets from a bumped grade could help them out when they write their next paper, it's a false sense of security. When you screw up big time at a job, you get fired; you don't get free passes; a student who's had people telling him that he's smart will likely get a rude awakening somewhere down the line, be it at a job or university (where many professors will actually give you a lower grade for a paper than they think you deserve).

I mean, students who get bad grades need some encouragement, but I don't believe they deserve to get lied to.

Also, what if this acceptance of mediocrity spreads into other areas of education? I do not want a med student who failed a test to get a passing grade and become a doctor.

[HighSeraphShin]

I dont know about failure at all, its really hard to fail when you know everything :( thats kinda what excludes me from all of you, i never got a grade lower than a B+. Thank god I dont have a snorty laugh or whiney voice anymore, i would be mistaken a lot by others than, :o I find it safer to just spend every day studying higher matters of mathematics such as calculus and geomotry, but they are atleast challenging me atleast a little bit, unlike this grades work, heh, useless.

So I think that letting a failure pass just because they want the child to feel better will end in the child feeling worse in his life when he does get that really good job such as a surgeon and messes up completely on a leg surgery and destroys the patella stopping the person from walking ever again, then getting him fired, put on his record, and never alowwed a high level job ever again, so the teachers up must be more strict then they think they should be, its just so sickening to see someone not knowing answer to number 4 sitting right next to you (god the answer is D!!!!!) heh, but thats just me, a child, an intellectual, i do not know the meaning of failure education wise, i do fail in other things (eating at all, talking loud, being less quiet and shy, etc.)

Failure isnt an option teachers! if you find an F on his or her card, fail their ***!

For the parents, they should support the child and help him/her study to be until they can hold their own, then allow them to study every week to become even greater, but i, unlike the people who DO fail, dont have a life, so study, read, write, and draw is all i do every day.

Last bit was off-topic.

- FH

[Frosted Heart]

Well in an ideal world every child gets full support for their education.

But what about lower income families who cannot afford such luxuries? They can't afford music lessons, instruments, books, extra curricular classes, educational tools, etc. And not all school systems have after class programs for troubled/struggling students.

Should less advantaged students like those be strictly failed as kids with more resources? I think if they were, most would just drop out of school altogether and turn to other methods of getting money in life.

[Shadoblak]

I think the answer would be to HELP failing students, not excuse them......And Shin.......Geez man.....people fail stuff happens....its continuous failure thats the problem

[Jhaxe]

I'm gonna have a field day with this one...

I strongly disagree with this policy. Giving undeserving people a diploma will not help society. Underachievers should be aided and encouraged to achieve the needed grades by their own hand instead of having it laid out to them on a silver platter.

Standards where I live are already low enough. I've seen FAR too many people getting a near free pass to the next grade when they don't deserve it. If I have the ability to come home with every grade on my report card for the year an "A" then I believe that the others students should at least have the capabilities to merely pass, even if only at the lowest of passing standard.

No achievement should be given out without the student actually deserving it. School is not only a place to learn facts and equations, it's also a place to learn the ways of life. One important lesson being that not everything is going to be given to you and that to achieve something you must work for it. Allowing undeserving students to pass is merely encouraging them to slack off later in life as well.

There are standards of learning that we all abide by, even though they vary around the world. And just because there are people who lack the motivation to put enough effort in to meet aforementioned standards doesn't mean you should blur the distinguished lines of those standards to suit the needs of said people.

[Zelos]

jeez, if that happened to me while i was in grade school, id never show up lol. i already think that my high school years were a complete waste of time :P. if im going to pass anyways, that really loses the incentive to show up. i had to walk two miles to get to class in high school, then two miles back, and most of my classes were really horrible :/ i didnt like my school at all and the only reason i went was because i didnt want to fail. with a system where you cant fail no matter what... why even go?

[BLUESMILE]

I know most of the posters here are in school or recently just finished, so I thought this would make for an interesting debate.

Some schools in Canada are being ‘encouraged’ by the (provincial) governments not to fail any students. It doesn’t matter if they don’t attend class, if they hand in work late (or not at all), or get bad test scores. They don’t want to hold any students back if they can help it, and teachers are sometimes being told by principals to give students leeway when marking their work (i.e. an essay worth 45% will be bumped up to a passing 50%).

On one hand teachers feels it doesn’t teach the student about discipline or consequences. It cheapens the worth of a diploma and doesn’t teach them the course’s material. This also lessens a teacher’s ‘authority’ over a student.

On the other hand, studies shows that students who fail a course are more likely to drop out and have less self-confidence. A lot of doors are shut to them without a high school diploma.

Do you agree with this policy? Would you agree to it as a student? As a parent (imagine you had a kid who attended a school like this)?

Do you think there’s a better way to help struggling students? Discuss. :)

Someone going into university for continuing to gain the knowledge he thirsts for , someone going into university just for a university diploma . It’s totally up to you yourself . It seems the policy you mentioned that fits everyone who has ability more or less . If I am mother , I just encourage my kids to make progress as possible as they can , I will lead them the way how to ascend higher level . But I am not a mother at present , so I have no chance to show :D . Actually , It’s nothing to do with the policy whatever it would be changed or amended . It relying on whether you need knowledge or not .