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Primera Espada
08-10-2007, 01:06 AM
Now, fortunately for us, the power of arrancar as they go through their ressureccion is clear. They restore themselves to their original form and power. This means that, as arrancar, they are no stronger than they once were. However, having this new form allows for a variety of new powers (Edorad's fire, Doldoni's wind, Grimmjow's nails, grand rey cero, etc) And also allows them to NOT have to constantly feed to maintain their higher level of power (perhaps the greatest advantage)

However shinigami are a bit different.

Shikai Ichigo beats non shikai kenpachi, who beats bankai tousen, and faces bankai Komamura.

But let's look at bankais for a moment.

What does Mayuri's bankai do? DOes it make mayuri any stronger, physically? Nope. Does it make him tougher? Nope. It gives him a gigantic weapon to fight with, and a huge supply of poison.

Bankai increases his combat ability dramatically.

Same with tousen. His bankai doesn't actually increase ANYTHING for him. It handicaps the daylights out of his opponent.

Also, when training for bankai, it is mentioned that it's the actual attaining bankai, and learning to use it that increases your spiritual pressure. The bankai move itself does not.

Hitsugaya goes bankai, and can still be sliced by Aizen's shikai.

Ikkaku goes bankai, and edorad specifically states that all the bankai release does is make his weapon super powerful.

Let's remember that it is a WEAPON release.

The exception to the rule (as he always is) is Ichigo. Instead of his weapon's full power being released, his weapon condenses, becoming very tough (which is why it no longer gets broken like his shikai so often does) and instead, as is the nature of Zangetsu, fuels it's leftover power into Ichigo as speed.
But, what does this mean, exactly?

It means that Ichigo, at his full power in shikai, compared to his full power in bankai... is pretty much the same.

The difference though, is that when full powered shikai Ichigo fights, he's not nearly as fast, and his sword is not nearly as tough. Having a much tougher sword, and being able to dodge your opponent, and get attacks off with rapid succession allows Ichigo to go from being heavily dominated to complete ownage, dispite having no real power increase.

This also explains why Ichigo, when perfectly syncronized with his zanpakuto, and even drawing on his hollow power without succumbing to it, managed to match the level of power that Kenpachi (whos power is actually being LOWERED by his sword) used against him in a one on one strike. Had Ichigo gone bankai and done the exact same attack, the exact same result would have happened. Kenpachi's sword would have broke, Ichigo and Kenpachi both would have been damaged, Kenpachi would have felt that he lost, and collapsed.

The real difference comes when someone like Hitsugaya uses bankai. His sword attacks do not become more effective in bankai, but his ice attack does. His ice attack goes from freezing water which yammy can shake off, to being able to create giant ice pillars and crush (though not kill) luppi.

Essentially bankai appears to allow the user to use more of their energy without any sort of charge up, when using special abilities of the zanpakuto, and increases the effect of the zanpakuto.

If you think about it, this perfectly explains how Zaraki, without bankai, can beat captain level opponents. His reiatsu is so great, and he doesn't rely on his zanpakuto for his fighting skills at all.

Remember the pressure analogy Ishida made? About how when you turn your tap off the pressure inside builds, and when you release it, a ton comes out? That's how shikai and bankai work. It's slowly learning how to open your faucet to allow the right amount of pressure.

Zaraki, on the other hand, just has a powerful flow, even without turning it off. He uses the eye patch to artificially do this, but as he learns to control it, he's likely to become even more devastating.

This also explains how Ichigo, without even learning shikai, could make a giant scar on a menos grande, something that is known to require a vice captain at least to handle, and nearly always requires bankai, from what we've seen. Yet from then, he gets shikai, specific training to learn how to use getsuga tenshou voluntarily, bankai, and a bit of hollow power, and it takes all that to cause the same level of scar on an ajuuca (grimmjow).

To me, it seems as though Ichigo's maximum strength output has increased VERY little. But his ability to use his maximum has increased to the point where he's using 90% of his max power output at all times when he's bankai/vaizard.

Essentially this means that Ulquiorra's assesment of Ichigo momentarily being stronger than him is likely right. Unfortunately, Ichigo still hasn't learned how to tap that voluntarily. It only shows up when he gets those 'blue eyes" he used against Kenpachi, Byakuya, and Grimmjow.

Rawren
08-10-2007, 01:00 PM
That's an excellent post and I'd rep you... but it seems that's not what you wish.
Now, fortunately for us, the power of arrancar as they go through their ressureccion is clear. They restore themselves to their original form and power. This means that, as arrancar, they are no stronger than they once were. However, having this new form allows for a variety of new powers (Edorad's fire, Doldoni's wind, Grimmjow's nails, grand rey cero, etc) And also allows them to NOT have to constantly feed to maintain their higher level of power (perhaps the greatest advantage)
This really helps me to understand better the power levels of the arrancar. Becoming an arrancar doesn't give them more power but they don't have to fear anymore about losing their identity. However this also works vice versa, an adjucha once being arrancarized cannot become a vastolorde anymore. Maybe that's why Grimmjow, Shawlong & co. joined Aizen. They couldn't become vastolordes anyway so they joined Aizen to ensure that they wouldn't lose their identity. But Aizen can also take that away from them. So I think that's why they fear him.

Sarada
08-10-2007, 03:11 PM
I can understand your theory about hollows very well, but the way you put, hybridisation is rather uselles for a Shinigami, since you say Ichigo's maximum strength from the start, when he wasn't a Vaizard for sure, has increased very little. Why would a Vaizard go to the trouble of putting himself in such danger if his maximum power isn't going to increase? Aizen talked about a limit every soul has, once that is achieved, they can go no further. This means your reiatsu won't grow. And the Hougyoku makes sure you can pass that limit. That sorta tells you the reiatsu limit will in fact grow a lot when you become an Arrancar or a Vaizard. Along with added techniques.

wakeskater
08-10-2007, 03:15 PM
i agree, initially it may not differ, but arrancarizatoin and becoming a vaizard releases the limits on your ability to grow so over time your max power should increase alot, and its apparent how ichigo has grown in his ability to keep his mask on and the expenditure of reiatsu, before he couldnt even keep up very well with an unreleased grimmjow, and he just beat the tar out of him even released

Primera Espada
08-10-2007, 08:29 PM
Talking to Yanniv has helped me change how I'm explaining things to be easier to understand.

Remember there's 2 types of spiritual power in bleach

One is the pressure which you can use, the other is the energy which you use. Think of energy as fuel.

Remember the faucet analogy? Basically the notion was that the way a shinigami normally works is by slowly learning how to open their faucet at the right amount to get the right amount of pressure.

What being a vaizard does it allow you to maintain that max pressure. Instead of a single moment that is built up to max force (Like Ichigo had in the Renji, Zaraki, and Byakuya fights) it allows the shinigami to use 90% of their max pressure until they run out of energy (hence why Ichigo lasts 11 seconds at first, he's using a TON of energy)

When you open the faucet fully, in order to maintain the same pressure, you have to push a lot more water through, making it use the water (spiritual power/fuel) a lot faster.

that's why Ichigo passes out.

So you can basically look at vaizards as being able to use max power (or close to it) as much as they want, whereas regular shinigami cannot. Bankai has a similar effect, which is why Ichigo's hollow power can piggyback on Bankai power. The only difference is that bankais fuel that power into the blade, and hollow masks fuel the power onto the user.

LordFuzzy
08-10-2007, 08:52 PM
Hmm excellent description my understanding has been that bankai allows full access to all shinigami based powers. Human souls after death have 2 possable directions for there evolution become a shinigami or become a hollow unless acted upon by an outside force they usually become hollow. shinigami outwordly seem very cold and i do recall rukia questioning the need for a heart since it seems to be a burden. Hollow on the other hand are super aggressive and extremely driven. Ive likened it to a hunting a feral preditor. sepretaly the 2 beings can have equal power we've all heard man hunts bear bear kills man. what the mask does is fuse these to into one being thats how it raises the limit for soul power all shinigami have there powers represented by there sword all hollows have there emotions sheilded by a mask when the 2 are mixed you get the perfect killing machine a trained fighter with a heavy splash of insanity then again maybe it really doesnt add power but a second perspective on how to use that power ichigo and hichigo use the same base power but there fighting styles are totally different (arg this can get confusing wish we had back story for another vaizard) we know that ichigo has borrowed a few moves from hichigo so this could also be the case

Primera Espada
08-10-2007, 11:21 PM
the main difference between shinigami and hollows are that shinigami use their power to form zanpakutos, seperating it from themselves, where hollows use their power directly onto themselves, changing their form.

So Vaizards are basically doing both. They're using their energy to both make a powerful weapon, as well as increase their own power. In the end, that means they tap out of power faster.

Basically instead of just increasing their sword's power, it increases the regular power as well.

Shadoblak
08-11-2007, 01:57 AM
Are you saying that there is more potential there, but say a captain level shinigami with ban kai cant reach their full potential? If thats what you're saying I'd totally understand wanting to become a vaizard.. The way I'm understanding this, is like in Naruto, when Rock Lee uses his Extreme Lotus, he unlocks his full power, but its so much it causes his bones to fracture and his muscles to snap. theres all this power there but he cant use it without the lotus technique to reach it, and even then he cant maintain it without serious injury. Then its the same for shinigami, being a Vaizard allows them to access their actual true potential enough to actually be used in combat (Clearly an Ichigo who's bones fracture when using Ban Kai is worse off than an Ichigo who can maintain Ban Kai for hours even though their power is basically the same)

Primera Espada
08-11-2007, 03:11 AM
Well, that's close enough to it.

It's not that a shinigami can never reach their full potential. It's that they can never use that power PURELY for strength of themselves. That's what a hollow does, afterall. But, that burns them out quickly (which is why hollows feed, so to speak). Shinigami can't reach the pure level of power output that hollows can, but hey... they don't have to eat either.

I am starting to think that any shinigami who has the hou gyoku used on them will obtain a hollow release like bankai, rather than a mask.

Shadoblak
08-11-2007, 03:18 AM
Well, that's close enough to it.

It's not that a shinigami can never reach their full potential. It's that they can never use that power PURELY for strength of themselves. That's what a hollow does, afterall. But, that burns them out quickly (which is why hollows feed, so to speak). Shinigami can't reach the pure level of power output that hollows can, but hey... they don't have to eat either.

I am starting to think that any shinigami who has the hou gyoku used on them will obtain a hollow release like bankai, rather than a mask.

Given the nature of Aizen's sword......Wouldn't that make him unstoppable?
An illusion to enslave all of creation..

Primera Espada
08-11-2007, 03:38 AM
Not really.

Remember, Aizen's illusion only works on those who see his initiation of it. Furthremore, it can be overridden. Unohana recognized something was up, even dispite his godmoding zanpakuto.

NeoSapien
08-11-2007, 03:54 AM
Ichigo's reiatsu does increase in Bankai. Evidence: Kuroi Getsuga Tenshou is much more powerful than regular Getsuga Tenshou, even though it's sort of the same size (as size is variable for both).

yanniv
08-11-2007, 04:06 AM
Ichigo's reiatsu does increase in Bankai. Evidence: Kuroi Getsuga Tenshou is much more powerful than regular Getsuga Tenshou, even though it's sort of the same size (as size is variable for both).

That can easily be due to the fact that the power of a KGT is compressed and focused into his sword making it a lot more powerful.

Take air and compressed air for an example.

Air, that is normally around you, isn't as strong as compressed air. When you take compressed air and stream it, it feels a whole lot rougher than just normal air that circulates around you.

jonat3
08-11-2007, 04:13 AM
That can easily be due to the fact that the power of a KGT is compressed and focused into his sword making it a lot more powerful.

Take air and compressed air for an example.

Air, that is normally around you, isn't as strong as compressed air. When you take compressed air and stream it, it feels a whole lot rougher than just normal air that circulates around you.

In other words, the black getsuga has greater reiatsu than his regular getsuga. Afterall, reiatsu means spiritual PRESSURE.

Now, Ichigo's bankai is the only bankai that abnormally increases Ichigo's reiatsu. That's because compression is the focus of his bankai. Other bankais increase in reiatsu is mostly in the zanpakutou itself and their own reiatsu increase is minimal.

Primera Espada
08-11-2007, 04:21 AM
has Ichigo ever used the kuro getsuga in bankai but not while affected by his hollow side?

NeoSapien
08-11-2007, 04:25 AM
has Ichigo ever used the kuro getsuga in bankai but not while affected by his hollow side?

Yes, against Doldonny and Grimmjow. If you count Ichigo as affected by his Hollow side then, well, he's been affected to some degree ever since getting his powers back.

wakeskater
08-11-2007, 04:27 AM
also being a vaizard seems to dramatically increase the amount of spiritual energy you have stored over time/training, because just look at the last Ichi/Grimm fight, he went from 11 seconds of vaizard time to 5 minutes of max spiritual pressure, and he dealt out a ton of reiatsu. and didnt seem to run out even at the end when he lost his mask, so pretty much... vaizard = unlimited potential to grow = ichigo has unlimited powerups X-D

tari101190
08-14-2007, 02:33 PM
i got a super new theory that should make sense now.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7905/newtheoryek0.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newtheoryek0.png)
this should fit in with alot stuff.

like maybe zanpakuto aren't important to power levels at all. it's being a hybrid which is important.

the shinigami zanpakuto is just a weapon/ability.
the arrancar zanpakuto seals up their true form and power (power which increased due to becoming a hybrid, not from gaining the zanpakuto).

some arrancar don't have zanpakuto but are still stronger, cos they're hybrids atleast.