Did Ichigo wield Zangetsu in chapter 1?

[Syn]

Well it all came because of what Kubo said in an interview (posted by Orihime in the IchiRuki FC):

SJ: How can Ichigo swing a sword that looks heavier than he is? Is he secretly working out at home?

TK: Well, no. To begin with, a zanpaku-tou isn't something you'd swing with your muscles. Ichigo's zanpaku-tou comes from inside him, so he wouldn't find it heavy. If Ichigo tried to wield Renji's zanpaku-tou, Zabimaru, he'd find it heavy.

SJ: So it depends on the person?

TK: Yes. Zabimaru looks pretty heavy, too. Ichigo wouldn't be able to wield him. Renji would probably find the same thing with Ichigo's zanpaku-tou, Zangetsu.

We always thought that Ichigo did wield Sodeno Shirayuki at first. However, I found some strange things.
Rukia's hilt was shown once in the whole manga. It was in the first chapter.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_Bleach-01-01-42.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/Bleach-01-01-42.png)

In that same chapter, Ichigo takes Rukia's powers.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_Bleach-01-01-52.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/Bleach-01-01-52.png)

Now look at it: people were like: it's the same hilt, he borrowed her powers, he borrowed her zanpakutou. Except he didn't. Look at the hilt: it's the same design, but reversed.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_2560105470.jpg (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/2560105470.jpg)

Yes, look at it closer: it's descending, you see? The design in descending. While (look at the first picture), Rukia's hilt is ascending/rising.

Furthermore. Chapter 63:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_manga-rainbleach-ch063-17.png (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/manga-rainbleach-ch063-17.png)

In ch63, Ichigo takes his own powers. And Zangetsu yells: pull me out!

And in ch66:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/th_manga-rainbleach-ch066-06.jpg (http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r83/Syneiam/manga-rainbleach-ch066-06.jpg)

Look. It's Zangetsu in its released form and OH! the same hilt, reversed, once again.

Since then, Kubo never drew this hilt again; Zangetsu is always in shikai form and Rukia's sealed hilt is never shown (I checked out ch201, 235, 246-247-248, 263-264-265 and nothing, and in the spreads, you either cannot see it or it's too tiny/blurry to check it out).
So, IMHO, Ichigo was wielding Zangetsu but using Rukia's powers o_____O Do I make sense? :headscratch

Edit: thanks to yanniv who found another pic of Sodeno's hilt. It's in the chapter page of ch269. However, it does not help at all, so I won't put the pic up :(

[yanniv]

Umm... Ichigo used Rukia's power at first when he used her Shinigami powers. That is why he has the remains of her hilt as his (probably reversed to show borrowed powers).

Zangestu is a result of Ichigo's own Shinigami powers.

Also, Zangestu is not an ice type sword. It wouldn't make sense for both of them to be the same.

[Sergelia]

Well, since it's been an eternity since we established "Yepyep, Ichigo was walking around with a huge version of Shirayuki", I'm a little flabbergasted when looking at this. But... how is that possible? Those were definitely Rukia's powers, increased by Ichigo's uncontrolled reiatsu, so...

:( I'm confused. But yep, the pattern IS in reverse... though, how would that work? And besides, judging from that interview, if it was really Shirayuki Ichigo was swinging around, it would feel heavy. Like, HEAVY.

So... D: unreleased Zangetsu, then? But why does its pattern mirror Shirayuki's?

Damnit.

@yanniv - but it says you cannot exactly use another's Zanpakutou that well. So... do we call PLOTHOLE here, or blame it on Kubo's early drawing mistakes?

[Guildenstern]

God, thank you for posting this.

At first I thought that was Shirayuki too, but then Zangetsu contradicts that by saying that sword is him, so I was left floundering around going "What the hell why does Ichigo's sword have Rukia's hilt" and to this day I still don't know. Remnant of the power transfer? Since Ichigo used her powers to access his sword he got her hilt on his sword? RUKIA GOT HER PEANUT BUTTER IN HIS CHOCOLATE!

The reversal thing is really interesting and I hope Kubo does something with it, 'cause that would be kind of cool. We still don't know how zanpakuto get their hilts anyway.

[mori]

for some sidebyside comparison

http://i18.tinypic.com/6fhzuy1.jpg

I think there art art changes and inconsistancies in here that make it hard to judge.

[Rain]

I'm saying he did. Rukia's powers awakened his and he used his own Zanpakuto.

I love how you commented on the hilt pattern Syn. There has got to be some significance to it seeing as how Rukias sword is all white and Ichigo's Black (in Bankai at least0

[Syn]

@yanniv: read what I wrote. I never said that Zangetsu and Sodeno Shirayuki were the same. I said they have the same hilts, but reversed.
And since there is that little string at the end of Ichigo's zanpakutou that never existed with Sodeno (but existed with... Isshin's zanpakutou!), I tend to believe that even at first, he wielded Zangetsu (only borrowing Rukia's powers to take his own zanpakutou out).
Also, the hilt continued to exist even after Rukia's powers were taken away (my point in showing ch63 and 66 actually).

@mori: well, I'm not sure about the reverse thing, just because Kubo drew only once Sodeno's hilt. However, he constantly drawn Ichigo's hilt the same way.

[Sergelia]

But, the fun really begins when we realize that Shirayuki is Ice&Water type, while Zangetsu is, what exactly? I forgot, power type? Anyway.

In Shikai, as someone so smartly noted, Ichigo and Rukia both have some sort of ribbons on the hilt's end - Ichigo's is a bandage-like thing (later on used by Shirosaki to throw Zangetsu around), and Rukia's is just... there; she makes a sort of a circle with it when performing the First Dance.

Then, of course, you have people noting on Ichigo's Bankai "A... pure black Zanpakutou?" and on Rukia's Shikai "A... pure white Zanpakutou?" so I simply don't know what to say. It also triggered an idea that Rukia, in all actuality might never achieve Bankai, so then both him and her would only have two Zanpakutou forms (Ichigo has Shikai and Bankai, Rukia has her sealed form and Shikai). -__- Yeah...

[yanniv]

@yanniv: read what I wrote. I never said that Zangetsu and Sodeno Shirayuki were the same. I said they have the same hilts, but reversed.
And since there is that little string at the end of Ichigo's zanpakutou that never existed with Sodeno (but existed with... Isshin's zanpakutou!), I tend to believe that even at first, he wielded Zangetsu (only borrowing Rukia's powers to take his own zanpakutou out).
Also, the hilt continued to exist even after Rukia's powers were taken away (my point in showing ch63 and 66 actually).

Ah, I thought for a second you were saying the swords are the same.

I don't really know if it was Zangestu or not. The hilt's look the same so it leads me to believe it was Sode no Shirayuki that Ichigo used. The only thing that is the same as Isshin's sword is the little hanging piece on the end.

[Sergelia]

The hilt's look the same so it leads me to believe it was Sode no Shirayuki that Ichigo used.

But :confused: Kubo SAID you cannot really use another's sword that easily! I know Shirayuki in herself is a rather small sword :love but the mega-version Ichigo swung about was rather sizable.

[Rain]

I think it was Zangetsu but there is the chance that Kubo may have either made a mistake or just didn't think this far ahead.

[Shadoblak]

Kubo thought far enough ahead to put Shinji hirako in chapter 1 lol

He probably had Rukia's hilt because he's using HER powers to access his own.....Like he's using HER Shinigami key to open his own door
Therefore, he would be using her sword to access Zangetsu. But since he cant actually reach his own power at this point, his zanpakuto becomes zangetsu as a reflection of her sword (Large size and reversed design)

[hyiceme]

I always thought Ichigo was using Zangetsu because his zanpakutou has a little tassel at the end and Shirayuki doesn't. I know it's a really minute detail, but I don't think it's because of his spirit power since only shikai and bankai can change appearance of a zanpakutou. That clearly was neither. His spirit power should only increase Zangetsu's size, and not adding little tassels.

[Saffire]

While Kubo did say that you cannot use another's sword easily, that's not necessarily contrary to that sword being Sodeno. Since Rukia transferred her powers to Ichigo, it's entirely possible that the transferral allows him to wield Sodeno as his own as long as the transfer lasts. If it didn't, giving him Shinigami power wouldn't do much good would it? He'd have her power but still no weapon to attack with, and I'd question whether a substitute Shinigami could manifest his own so easily.

I think the situation is a bit more complicated than saying it's either Sodeno or it isn't. We don't really understand how substitutes work, so it could really be Sodeno, or it could just be a shell that is filled with Ichigo's energy so it can operate like a soul cutter, or maybe he really can manifest his own and Rukia's power influenced it somehow, etc. (I like the second, personally.)

Could you link this interview? I'd like to read it.

[Beee]

I think that while he had Rukia's powers, it's still Ichigo's soul, so it would be Zangetsu that we saw him holding in chapter 1.

but I wonder how the hilts of ther characters look like? is it similar? the same? different?

btw, even if sodeno looks lighter, it'll be harder for Ichgo to use it if he has to, since sodeno is part of Rukia's soul and not his...at least that's what I think. (maybe not the weight but perhaps the sword won't follow his movements... if you know what i mean... xD;; )

Kubo thought far enough ahead to put Shinji hirako in chapter 1 lol

He probably had Rukia's hilt because he's using HER powers to access his own.....Like he's using HER Shinigami key to open his own door
Therefore, he would be using her sword to access Zangetsu. But since he cant actually reach his own power at this point, his zanpakuto becomes zangetsu as a reflection of her sword (Large size and reversed design)

hm... you pretty much said what I wanted to say...but BETTER :D

[Syn]

@Saffire: it was copied pasted in the IchiRuki FC (or copied from her own American SJ, I don't know), there was no link given. From Orihime (here (http://bleachasylum.com/showpost.php?p=36176&postcount=772[/url)):

And a Kubo interview from June 2007 American Shonen Jump! Not really IchiRuki but interesting nonetheless!
SJ: What would you give Rukia as a present?

Tite Kubo: A vacation! She's been busy all year.

SJ: Is there a character that you enjoy drawing especially?

TK: I tend to prefer characters that are rough and tough. They seem more three-dimensional. I'd say someone like Kenpachi. Komamura's fun to draw, too. Behind his headgear, he's got the face of the wolf -- something you normally wouldn't think to draw.

SJ: So you like fierce characters?

TK: Yes, I like characters that aren't typical or a bit unusual. I enjoy drawing secondary characters. It's also fun drawing Mayuri.

SJ: If you could switch places with one of the characters for a day, who would it be and why?

TK: I'd switch places with Kon. He seems so carefree, and everybody loves him in one way or another.

SJ: What items from the human world does Kisuke sell in his shop?

TK: Basically lots of candy and snacks, and household items. Small things, like detergent.

SJ: Could we find copies of SJ there?

TK: You won't find SJ. Kisuke doesn't have a distribution channel. But he does buy copies from himself at a nearby convenice store. [Laughs]

SJ: Are kimono easy to draw?

TK: Initially I wasn't all that interested in a traditional Japanese look, so it was hard at the start, but I got used to it. I wanted a kimono style that was slightly different from the usual. For instance, I wanted some decoration along the edges and sleeves that fluttered a lot to make the action scenes gorgeous to watch.

SJ: Do you use models or have one of your assistants pose for you? Have you ever dressed as a Soul Reaper and posed for a drawing?

TK: I don't do such things. I know in my head pretty much what a character is going to look like, so for any action scene I'll make the character move around in my head, choosing the angle I want and drawing from there.

SJ: How can Ichigo swing a sword that looks heavier than he is? Is he secretly working out at home?

TK: Well, no. To begin with, a zanpaku-tou isn't something you'd swing with your muscles. Ichigo's zanpaku-tou comes from inside him, so he wouldn't find it heavy. If Ichigo tried to wield Renji's zanpaku-tou, Zabimaru, he'd find it heavy.

SJ: So it depends on the person?

TK: Yes. Zabimaru looks pretty heavy, too. Ichigo wouldn't be able to wield him. Renji would probably find the same thing with Ichigo's zanpaku-tou, Zangetsu.

SJ: The relationships between siblings mean a lot in Bleach. Do you have any brothers or sisters yourself?

TK: Yes, I'm the eldest of three children. I have a younger sister and a younger brother.

SJ: If you could choose a character as a sibling, who would it be?

TK: I'd choose Rangiku, I wish she were my older sister. [Laughs] Well, that's because you cna count on her when you're in trouble.

SJ: And you want to be Kon, too?

TK: Hey, I didn't mean that! [Laughs]

SJ: Could you tell us which characters you would want to see fight each other?

TK: Hmm...I'd pick Shunsui and Ukitake.

SJ: Why is that?

TK: Because they're both nitouryuu [two-handed swordmen] which would make for fantastic visuals. Also because I can't imagine a reason they would fight each other in the story. They get along so well; they have been best friends for so long. I'd want to see what I fight between them would be like. If I had to pick one that's simply impossible, then I'd choose Ichigo and (dundundun! ) Kaien. Kaien being dead, that is.

SJ: Bleach is increasingly popular in the U.S., now that the anime is airing on TV. What aspect of the anime do you want readers of the manga to enjoy the most?

TK: I think what's fun in the anime and what's fun in the manga are two different things. What's fun to see in the anime is, of course, the way things move and sound. What I recommend most is to read the manga first then watch the anime. You'll discover and enjoy how a particular scene in the manga is transformed and how the action is portrayed. Some things in the manga have evolved into something new or have been shown in a way only the anime can achieve. These are the things that I hope readers will enjoy most when watching the anime.

SJ: Do you have a message for our readers?

TK: I never imagined when writing Bleach that it would be eventually published in the U.S., so I'm really glad that American readers have taken to it and enjoyed my work. Please continue to support Bleach. I've also been told that I shouls visit America someday.

That really got me wonder; the tassle always bothered me because it's clearly not there in Sodeno (has never been there) so if it was Sodeno, then why:
*does it have a tassle (much like Isshin's)
*is the design reversed (I won't talk about how much the art changed since then because it is a given that Kubo's art improved).

[hyiceme]

I posted these in IchiRuki FC a while back, I think they are from one of the manga volums... >.>
ichigo's zanpakuto
http://bbsimg.qq.com/2006/03/09/003/390.jpg
Rukia's zanpakuto
http://bbsimg.qq.com/2006/03/09/003/406.jpg

In my opinion, they look exactly the same except for the tassel thing at the end of Ichigo's zanpakuto. I don't think that's something that Ichigo's spirit power level can add to Shirayuki. So I think he was using Zangetsu.

[Shadoblak]

I posted these in IchiRuki FC a while back, I think they are from one of the manga volums... >.>
ichigo's zanpakuto
http://bbsimg.qq.com/2006/03/09/003/390.jpg
Rukia's zanpakuto
http://bbsimg.qq.com/2006/03/09/003/406.jpg

In my opinion, they look exactly the same except for the tassel thing at the end of Ichigo's zanpakuto. I don't think that's something that Ichigo's spirit power level can add to Shirayuki. So I think he was using Zangetsu.

You're right...Theyre exactly the same...I still say he was acessing Zangetsu through Rukia's sword...thus the oversized tassled sword

[hyiceme]

I say he was already using Zangetsu without knowing it. It's understandable since during the 10-day training he had with Urahara, he pulled out a broken Zangetsu, which makes sense since Byakuya broke it before. I think he was only using Rukia's shinigami power to access Zangetsu.

[Geta Boshi]

I dont know if the anime team took liberties in this matter or consulted Kubo the hilt for Ichi's 1st zanapkuto is similar to Rukia's in Anime ep 1 . In ep 1 the girl's spirit has the chain of fate/soul chain in the manga its not there . There have been some things which have been rectified by the anime team is this one of those . I will try to find the orignal discussion we had at AS regarding the hilt

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2739/bleach010107ki0.jpg ( chapter 1 )

[Syn]

I know the design is identical; the only thing that bugs me since yesterday is that they are reversed when they wield their zanpakuto. Ichigo's design in going down, while Rukia's design is going up; and I don't know if it's a mistake from Kubo or if it's intended (it's hard to say since he drew Sodeno's hilt only once, on the page I gave in the first post).

[Sergelia]

I don't know about you people, but I just break down laughing at the thought of Ichigo wielding the most beautiful Zanpakutou in SS. :rotflmao

But, looking at the pictures hyiceme provided, does that mean Kubo made a mistake in chapter 1? From what I recall from BleachExile, those pics are actually part of character and object sheets for the anime... so if I am right, screenshots from episode 1 will prove that the hilt is exactly the same there, too. But... :confused: what is the truth?

I still say it was supposed to be reversed in canon. :yell

[Geta Boshi]

I dont know much about swords I may be wrong here the blade direction is reversed in those picture has that got something to do with hilt design being reversed ?

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4788/untitled1wz7.th.gif (http://img63.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled1wz7.gif)

If you ask me KT screwed up or did not give much attention to detail . And this is not the first time he has done it recently with Ulqi's hole position

[Syn]

Lol yeah, that's why I wasn't sure. It's hard to tell, since Rukia's hilt has been drawn once. On the other pic though, it's clear that Rukia's design on the hilt is rising, while Ichigo's is on the other way around. I'm just wondering, because it would make sense with the whole black & white thing, but at the same time, I find it curious that two zanpakutous have the same hilt, or nearly.

[Sergelia]

Yep Geta_Boshi, I noticed that too... however it's possible that Shirayuki's hilt also has the pattern on the side pointing towards the wielder, as well. That wouldn't affect the design, though.

[NightMare]

I think no cause after his inner talk with Zangetsu Ichigo was ready to wield his power

[BigBadBuu]

I don't have the manga onhand to quote, but didn't Urahara say that Ichigo's power basically bloated up into into the *shape* of a sword/zanpaktou?

Zangetsu later states he was there from the beginning, but fear/ignorance blocked Ichigo from being able to communicate with him.

Together I take these to mean that Ichigo initially received a charge or 'boost' from Rukia enabling Ichigo to manifest his own Zanpaktou. Since it, however, wasn't formed naturally by his own willpower, it was based on what Ichigo knew/though a Zanpaktou should look like.

-Buu

[Rain]

BigBadBuu- That's more or less what Urahara said and how I took that scene, that itself is why I think it has always been Zangetsu

[Saffire]

You know, about the whole weight thing with zanpakutous...I was watching the anime for the first time (well, past ep 4), and it occured to me that Ishida had the giant Shirayuki-clone tied to his head and didn't seem particularly strained by it...I wonder if Kubo thought that up after writing that scene or if there's something else going on there?

[speedphantom]

Good point haha. He didn't give the whole explanation about the zanpakutou being a piece of your soul so its not heavy thingy. I guess its just one of those comedy > reality + mind > matter moments haha:p